1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome back to the bob Lefsets Podcast. My guest 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: today is engineer and producer Elliott Shiner. Elliott, you and 3 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: your compatriots are having these gigs in New York. Can 4 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: you tell me about that? 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you know, you've been in the business so 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: long and after fifty years of recording music, there are 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 2: some amazing stories that go with it. Stories said nobody's heard. 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 2: Maybe a few engineers' friends have heard the stories, but 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: you know, some of them are so bizarre. And we 10 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: go on stage and we talk about the various experiences 11 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: that we've had, like George. You spoke to George well 12 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: ago and he had like amazing experiences with earth, wind 13 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: and fire, and now we're hearing for the first time. 14 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard any of that stuff that George talked about. 15 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: So how did this come together? 16 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 2: Well, do you know anything about med Alliance? 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: I do, but my audience give them an explanation. 18 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 2: Med Alliance is a group of engineers producers. There's seven 19 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: of us and originally it was Al Schmidt at Journey, Philomone, Frank, 20 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Philip Petty, George, Me and I'm forgetting one and somebody 21 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: else and we got together. It was a thing we 22 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: wanted to get together to help improve audio, help determine 23 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: what was actually good for engineers. You know, you could 24 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: buy this piece of gear and it'll help you. 25 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 3: So we were. 26 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 2: Testing out pieces of gear and trying to determine whether 27 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: it was okay for engineers on professional level. And we 28 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: did and that's all we did for twenty years. And 29 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: I had come up with the idea, probably ten years ago, 30 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: why don't we do this. We tell stories to each other, 31 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: why don't we tell it to an audience. And the 32 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: policy of META is everyone has to agree. If you 33 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: don't agree, it's off table. So at that point I 34 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: was getting pretty old, and I mean he was still 35 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: working and doing great work, but he said, going out 36 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: on the road and doing this for people, not going 37 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: to do that, And so we put it in the can. 38 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: Unfortunately Al died and Trinity died, Phil Ramone died, and 39 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: it came up about two years ago and I suggested 40 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: it to the new group. It was me, George, Frank Chuck, 41 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: and Frank Check and that was it. We brought on 42 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: Sylvia Massey, Jimmy Douglas, and Nicole Bowls and everybody agreed. 43 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: We wanted to do it, and we did our first 44 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: performance in Ridgefield, Connecticut at the Ridgefield Playhouse and it 45 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: was huge. 46 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: It was great. 47 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: The place was filled, they were all laughing, having a 48 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: great time. And it was our first performance. There really 49 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 2: wasn't much of a rehearsal and there was screw up, 50 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: but it all came off great. It was natural. So 51 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: we decided to warn that up again. And here we are. 52 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: Okay, you're playing for a couple of weeks at the 53 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: she and Theater. Yes, what are the logistics? How did 54 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: you end up there? How did you decide how long 55 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: you were going to play? 56 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: Well? I had been in the theater once before and 57 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 2: I saw a van there and was amazed with the 58 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: way it looked, the way it sounded. It had for 59 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: it only seats two eighty three, but it has a 60 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: full personum stage. I mean, it's an amazing stage. So 61 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: we have everything we needed, we need, video, drop down screens. 62 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: Everything was in place, and we thought, let's do it, 63 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: and we booked a theater. We did. We weren't hired 64 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: as an act come in and we delayed a couple 65 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: of weeks and we start on Thursday, and so that 66 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: Thursday and Friday Valentine's is almost Soliah. We're having a 67 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: great time. 68 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: Okay. Is it going to be the same show every night? 69 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 2: No? I mean I've got fifty stories to tell, so no, 70 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: not at all. 71 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: Okay, So theoretically someone could go every night and get 72 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: a different experience. 73 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: Correct. 74 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: Okay, how did you decide? Okay, is anybody going to 75 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: tell a story on stage that the rest of the 76 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: group has never heard? Oh? 77 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've only heard two stories from each person, so yeah, 78 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 2: there's forty eight more from me. Ha ha. 79 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: Okay, how many stories are you going to tell? 80 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: With the length of each story, it's about two tonight. 81 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: So how did you decide what to you wanted to tell? 82 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 2: I usually pick what's funny, what got me into trouble? 83 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: You know? I had a date one time with Chuck Berry. 84 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: It was for a commercial, but it was also a 85 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: documentary and we didn't finish at A and R, and 86 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: I got a call from the advertising agency asking if 87 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: I would go down to Saint Louis and work with 88 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: the finish up couple of overdubs who checked down there, 89 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: and I did, so I go down there. And this 90 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: was in the days when somebody could meet you at 91 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: the gate. And Chuck met me at the gate and 92 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: he's standing opposite the gate that came in on and 93 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: he was up against the side of an escalator and 94 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: he had his hand around a young girl, young blonde. 95 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: She was probably half his size, and she was really beautiful. 96 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: And I go over and we say hi, and he said, 97 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: you're sleeping at my place tonight and then in the 98 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: morning we'll go to my studio in Saint Louis. I said, okay, fine, 99 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: so we go off to his place. He's now he's 100 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: got a car. We used to call him when they 101 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: came out Pimpmo Hills. They had like plastic a plastic 102 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: bubble over the driver's seat and passenger seat and it 103 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: just looked it was a Cadillac. It'll look hideous, but 104 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: he had one of these gut in. We drive up 105 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: to Chuck's house and there's it's huge, I mean it's 106 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: really huge, and there's a gate. It opens up. You 107 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: go into a small area where there's another gate, so 108 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: the front gate closes, the next gate opens up and 109 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 2: you drive up this path. Where where did you grow 110 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: up up? 111 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,119 Speaker 1: I grew up in Connecticut. 112 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: Did you ever go to the Catskills, of course. Okay, 113 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: driving up this path was like going to a hotel 114 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: in Ellenville. And we're driving up and there's a tennis 115 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: court on the left hand side, but the weeds are 116 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: eight feet high. On the right hand side is a 117 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: swimming pool and the weeds are the same. So we 118 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: get up there and I'm looking at this house and 119 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 2: it looks like a hotel. We get up to the 120 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: front door and a girl comes out. She doesn't lift 121 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: her head, she just faces the down, looks at the floor. 122 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: She opens everybody's door, everybody gets out. We go into 123 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 2: the house and it was like walking into a lobby 124 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: of a Catskill hotel. There was purple shag carpeting about 125 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: three inches high on the floors, but he built in 126 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: the kitchen as you walk in there. We sat down, 127 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: we talked for a bit and he said, I don't 128 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: remember the girl's name, the one who looked down at 129 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 2: the ground, but he said, she's going to take you 130 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: to your room. And we go in another part of 131 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 2: the house and there are a whole bunch of rooms. 132 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: So I go into this one room and it's the 133 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: same carpeting on the floor, but the bed themselves had 134 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: bedspreads that were purple shag carpeting, and I walk in 135 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: there and there are two double beds in there, and 136 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: she still hasn't lifted her head. I have no idea 137 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 2: who this person is. And she says to me, you'll 138 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: be all right. I'll come back a little later and 139 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: give you some information, okay. So she leaves and I'm 140 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: in the room and I'm thinking something feels wrong here. 141 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. I looked round the room, 142 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: either cameras or I couldn't find anything, you know, so 143 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 2: hell with it. I got undressed, went to bed. About 144 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: twenty minutes later, there's a knock on my door. I 145 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: get up, I opened the door. It's this girl again. 146 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: She's still looking at the floor and she says to me, 147 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 2: I'm letting out the dogs. Don't open your window, okay, 148 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: and made sure the window was closing through. I got 149 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: back at the bed, thinking I think this girl's gonna 150 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 2: come and chop my head off during the night. So 151 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: but all worked out well, and got up in the 152 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: morning and Chuck and I went in Saint Louis. We 153 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: get to studio. His studio was a fur warehouse and 154 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: he sectioned I built a room in there control room studio, 155 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: and it looked like was built in fifty five. It 156 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 2: was so old. It was like a three track console, 157 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: but you can get into there were patches to get 158 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: into sixteen tracks. It was a sixteen track tape. So 159 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: it was all going to be fine. I found one 160 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: working fader and we did the overdubs. Everything was great, 161 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,239 Speaker 2: didn't take much time. At about two o'clock in the afternoon, 162 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: the advertising agency gave me a check to give Chuck. 163 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: It was the back half of his payment and was 164 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 2: five grand. So I handed him in the check and 165 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: he looked at it. Can I curse on there? Bob? Yeah? 166 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Okay. 167 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 2: So he looks at and he says, what the fuck 168 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: is this? And I said, I'm pretty sure it's a 169 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: remainder of the money they owed you. And he said, 170 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: this ain't money, and he rips it up. He says, 171 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: I want money now. You ain't leaving until I get cash. 172 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 2: I said, I didn't they You know, I was young. 173 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: I didn't think that anything weird could happen to me. 174 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: So I called the agency and I spoke to the 175 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: producer and he said, I said, look, Chuck doesn't like 176 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: to check. So he wants cash. Now, well, I don't 177 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 2: know how we can do that, but maybe I can 178 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: get it tomorrow. I said, no, he's stopped letting me 179 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: leave here until he gets money. And he said, okay, 180 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 2: let me get to Western Union. We'll figure out how 181 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: to get the money to them. And he called me 182 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: back in a bit and he said, okay, it's coming 183 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: down Western Union. It should be there by three this afternoon. Okay. 184 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: So I tell Chuck this. He's fine, everything seems fine. 185 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: We're talking talking about politics, and it was the end 186 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: of Nixon administration and it finally gets close to three. Now, 187 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: this was their warehouse. There was a very large safe 188 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: in the room, and it looked like a big bank 189 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: safe with that kind of door. And he puts his 190 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: arm around my shoulder and he walks me over there 191 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: and he said, look, while I'm gone, I want you 192 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: to stay here. I said, in the safe and he said, yeah, 193 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't know what. I said, okay, And 194 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: I got in the safe. I didn't expect him to 195 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: close the door, but he did, and no lights. And 196 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: I'm sitting in there thinking maybe i'd rush to a 197 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: little too soon to think I wouldn't get hurt here. 198 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: And I sat in the safe for maybe about twenty 199 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: five minutes, thinking, oh my god, you know I could 200 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: be dead. How much your is in here. He finally 201 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: shows up, and he's a happy guy. He got his money. 202 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 2: He lets me out, Hey, I want to take you 203 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: to dinner before you leave. I said, okay, So we 204 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: go to a soul food place in East Saint Louis 205 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: and we have a dinner. I said, Chuck, you know, 206 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: it's none of my business, but what was that all about? 207 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: And he said, Look, you know, in the fifties, I 208 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: would do a gig in Texas and they would write 209 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: me a check and then that night I would leave 210 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: for Arkansas, and by the time I got there the 211 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: next day, the check was still good. So at some 212 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: point I stopped taking checks. And you know, once he 213 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: said that, I totally understood. I thought it was, you know, 214 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: times of change, and these were the seventies, the fifties, 215 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: and you know that's why people get paid. But it 216 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: all worked out. Okay. Took me to the airport and 217 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: we were good after that and never saw him again. 218 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you one thing I don't like talking 219 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: about this it's not a good thing. About a month later, 220 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 2: Chuck was arrested in Missouri. They had a statue called 221 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: white slavery, and he was blamed that these two girls 222 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 2: were white slaves. I'm pretty sure he got out of 223 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: it and everything was cool, but that that was the 224 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 2: kind of thing they would do down there, you know, 225 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: and it's like so evil, but it was weird. 226 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: Ask you this, this is a sleazy business. What problems 227 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: have you had getting paid? And how much money all 228 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: these years later are you owed? 229 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: You know. There was only one gig that I didn't 230 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: get paid for and I was asked to engineer something. 231 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 2: I'm not going to mention the name, and I I 232 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: was doing a Manhattan transfer rick in LA and this 233 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 2: gig was in New York and they were okay about 234 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 2: me leaving. I got to New York and I get 235 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: a call from the producer. He said, we're going to 236 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: have to delay a few days. Not quite ready, okay. 237 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: All my equipment was shipped back to New York. And 238 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: then night before we're going to start, I get another call, 239 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: We're not going to be ready till next week. And 240 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 2: you know, I'm thinking, why did I come back for this? 241 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 2: I could have been finishing off the transfer and then 242 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: he calls me next week. You know. It was a 243 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: woman and she fell in love with an engineer that 244 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: she had worked with and he was not doing the gig. 245 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: And all I said was, okay, I want you to 246 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: pay for the shipment of my gear here and going back, 247 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: and he said, no problem. I never got paid. It 248 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: was maybe a couple of grand But in ninety and 249 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: two thousand and five I got a call from the 250 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: same person saying, will you mix a cut for a 251 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 2: movie for me? I said sure, and she said how 252 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: much she get? Knowing this was a couple of grand 253 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 2: I said, I get something to five hundred to mix 254 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: and no problem. So I got her back. But that 255 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: was the only money that was ever owed to me. 256 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: Well did you ever have trouble getting paid? Were you 257 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: ultimately got the buddy? 258 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, record companies were being incredibly slow to pay, 259 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 2: and from the time I started to the early two thousands, 260 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: it was still being paid by record companies, you know, 261 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: except like when I worked with the Eagles, they were 262 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: their own record company. They paid you and you always 263 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 2: got paid on time. But while record companies were paying 264 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: you never knew when you were going to get paid, 265 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: and you never knew if you gain any royalties. 266 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: Do you still own your royalties or did you sell them? 267 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 2: No? 268 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: I am and to what degree do you think you're 269 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: being paid fairly? 270 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: I'm being paid fairly for streaming. I'm amazed at how 271 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: much money there is in streaming. 272 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: Are there any records that you worked on that were 273 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: not you know, in the old days, a physical store 274 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 1: had to stop the physical album in order of you 275 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: to buy it. We're essentially everything is available on streaming. 276 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: Are there any royalty streams that were very low because 277 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: the records weren't available whatever. But now, because of the Internet, 278 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,239 Speaker 1: you're getting paid on these records in sums that you 279 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: didn't get previously. 280 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: That's true. And I have to say a lot of 281 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: the record labels they would figure out when the album 282 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 2: would be coop, you know, and right as it's a 283 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 2: battery coop, they'd stopped production, so you wouldn't make anything, 284 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 2: you know, unless it was a huge band, you know, 285 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: they would have to do it. But for spoiler acts 286 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 2: they'd usually stop it. You wouldn't get anything, but now 287 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: you do. 288 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask a different question. Whenever you're in 289 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: the studio, assuming there is a separate engineer and the producer. 290 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: I have never heard the engineer say anything negative, even 291 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: if they want to say something I'm not talking about. 292 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: If you're asked, you know, should we do it this 293 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: way or that way? But the engineer is not rendering 294 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: an opinion. He is number one. Other than working the board, 295 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: the number one thing seems to be to get along 296 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: and stay calm. Hey, what's your experience and how did 297 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: you learn to behave behind the board. 298 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 2: Well, my teacher was film own, so he always told me, 299 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: you know, you have to be friends with the producer 300 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 2: and the band or the artist, and you never want 301 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: them as your enemies. Always keep them on your side. 302 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: And one of the earlier albums I did was a Peter, 303 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: Paul and Mary thing. I sat in Fulfill one day 304 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: and I knew how they would set up and how 305 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: they would sing all three at once on three different mics, 306 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 2: and produce came in. You know, I always question whether 307 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: he was really a producer. You know, he would sit 308 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 2: there reading the times, and I don't think he ever 309 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: really paid attention to what they were doing unless they 310 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 2: thought they thought it was good. And there was one 311 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: take on one song where they said they asked him, 312 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: how did you like that? And he had the paper 313 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: down load and he sort of turned towards me and said, 314 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: how was that? So, yeah, you had to learn that. 315 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: That's how it worked in the seventies. And at some 316 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: point they were realizing both the artists and the labels, 317 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 2: because the labels were paying these guys aren't on a 318 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 2: weekly basis whether they worked or not. And they thought, 319 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: you know, it's time we started to change things. And 320 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: they decided that they would try to make the engineers 321 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 2: producers and you know, with the artist's approval, and that 322 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 2: seemed to be the way it turned. And it was 323 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 2: a good thing. I mean, we didn't make much more. 324 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 2: They didn't really pay us. They said, well, you have 325 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 2: the credit, you get a production credit, and you can 326 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: go on from there. Like first thing I co produced 327 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: was Van Marson Moondance, and having your name on that 328 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: was like, that was a good thing. 329 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: Okay. There are some producers who are big characters, Richard 330 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: Perry no longer with us, who would come in there 331 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: divas unto themselves, and they have a vision recording and 332 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: producing are slightly different, you know, they merge at some point. 333 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: But to what degree if you're hired as a producer, 334 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: will you say, well, you know, this song needs a 335 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: bridge or we need to change it. To what degree 336 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: will you dig down on a vision. 337 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 2: Level if I'm a producer, yes, oh, right from the beginning. 338 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: I mean it's I won't go into a study of 339 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 2: somebody until I heard the songs. You know, It's always 340 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: been my policy. I want to hit the songs first, 341 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 2: so I get involved right there. But interesting you talk 342 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 2: about Richard Perry. He was a good guy from the 343 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: old school in the fifties. And I got called to 344 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: do Today with Art Garfroncle and Richard was producer. And 345 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: the first day we go in there, Richard hadn't flown 346 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 2: in yet from La So I'm doing vocals with Art, 347 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: and finally Richard walks in and he's sort of not 348 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 2: happy with this. I said, well, Art won this thing, 349 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 2: so I couldn't say no. He said, okay, Well, Art 350 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 2: says hi. 351 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: He comes in. 352 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 2: Art's very angry, you know, he didn't like Richard being 353 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: so late. And Art comes in skintrow room and he 354 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: said something, you know, you're late. Why are you late? 355 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: You know? And they argued for bid, well, let me 356 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: hear what you've done on this. He said, how many 357 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: tracks do you have? We have like eight or nine tracks, 358 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: you know, and he said where are they? And I 359 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: gave them the faders. He looked at the faders. I 360 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: don't even know if he knew the song, but he 361 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: was like he'd get the first two syllables from one take, 362 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 2: go to another take, not having heard any of these 363 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 2: vocals once in another take, and then it just kept 364 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 2: going around from tack to take, and all of a sudden, 365 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 2: Art said I'm getting out of here and he left, 366 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: and Richard was hired, and he eventually left too. The 367 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: next morning, I get a call from Arts manager and 368 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: he says, look, it's not working out between Richard and Art. 369 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: Could you do me a big favor? I said, sure, 370 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: what's that? Could you fire Richard? Oh? Boy, fire Richard. 371 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: I don't do that kind of stuff. You don't want 372 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: to fire him, You fire him, you know. So he 373 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: never got in. I just left. There was nothing to do, 374 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: and that was that. I finished the record with Art. 375 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: You know, he was the producer. 376 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to jump for a second. A few years back, 377 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: there was a lot of publicity about you getting into 378 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: car audio with accurate Hey, how did that come to be? 379 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: And B tell us about the process. Well, it was right. 380 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: About five years after five point one started to come 381 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: to light, and at some point it was right after 382 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: two thousand and one, after nine to eleven. I said, 383 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: how are people going to hear this? I don't know 384 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: of anybody who's going to buy four more speakers and 385 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 2: seed you up in the middle of their living room 386 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: with cables going all over the place. And so I 387 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: thought back to every format, and every format always happened 388 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: in the car. When we went to from tape to 389 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: a cassette and E track cassette, it was only in 390 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,719 Speaker 2: the car. Nobody bought those things and it happened for 391 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: a while, and then after that it went to CD 392 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: and it didn't happen until it was in the car. 393 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 2: I thought, well, there should be no difference. Why don't 394 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 2: we put in a car. And there was a DVD 395 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: entertainment group in New York and they were having all 396 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 2: these manufacturers come and talk about what they're doing with 397 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: five point one, but nobody had put it in a car. 398 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: Nobody had plans to put it in the car. So 399 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: I don't even know who I was speaking to, but 400 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: they had been to come and talk about five one, 401 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 2: and I got in my head that I'm going to 402 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: go to every manufacturer and say, hey, it's never been done, 403 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: why don't we put it in one of your cars. 404 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: Why don't you try and sell this to a manufacturer? 405 00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: And every single person from every company said nah, but 406 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: you know, we think it's going to be too difficult 407 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,479 Speaker 2: to add all that information into a car, and they 408 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 2: all said no. I got a call about six months 409 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: later from Panasonic. They said, we like your idea. We 410 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: did a mock up system. Would you come out and 411 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: see if it's what you would like? And we have 412 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: a company that's interested. And I got out there. I 413 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: helped tune system got it to a point where I 414 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: got my stuff sounded good, and we played it for 415 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 2: Accura and they were totally blown away by it, and 416 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: they asked us to they want to do this in 417 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: the two thousand and four Accurate TL and we did it. 418 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: They it was standard gear. You didn't pay extra for this, 419 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: and we actually made up a demo disc of all 420 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 2: the five wins that people had done at that point, 421 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: and they gave it away if you bought the car, 422 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 2: and it was a then deal after that. I mean 423 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 2: I eventually was in every accurate model, and it was 424 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 2: only till about two years ago. They wanted the system 425 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 2: was named after me, and they wanted to have a 426 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 2: bigger name, so they decided to go to Harmon Harmon 427 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 2: Cardon and they did that. But I'm still in two 428 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: of the cars because I don't know whether they couldn't 429 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: get one that was fitting. And in the Rocker report 430 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: that came out last Friday, they had ten SUVs and 431 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 2: they called them best the shirt and class and you 432 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: know BMW for a power and a Cadillac for comfort, 433 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 2: all these things, and finally came down to audio. The 434 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 2: best audio you'll ever hear in a car is the 435 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 2: ELS system in the RDX Accura. And I'm thinking I 436 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 2: haven't worked on it, and that car is still using 437 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 2: the same program I used six years ago. 438 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: Okay, when Panasonic called you in it and you subsequently 439 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: worked with Accura, did they say this is the equipment's 440 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: in there you tune in or did you have input 441 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,919 Speaker 1: as to what speakers and amplifiers they put in the cars? 442 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: Sign I would have to go by what the car 443 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 2: company wanted. They had specific standards. You couldn't put a 444 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 2: speaker head. You couldn't put a speaker there. The amp's 445 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 2: too big. You know, there's a whole lot of I 446 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 2: get to approve it though. You know. In their first 447 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 2: car they put in the tweeter and it was really 448 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: a good place on the top of the dash, and 449 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 2: they actually put in insulated, an insulated front windshield so 450 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 2: nothing would bounce off it. And you know, they really 451 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: took consideration that they wanted to have a great system. 452 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: The year before I came in, they had another company 453 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 2: in there and it was raided by Car Current Track 454 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 2: or one of those magazines as the worst Ordeo system 455 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 2: you can ever have. So they were looking to make 456 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 2: this the best started system and it was. It was. 457 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 2: It was rated the number one system in all of 458 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: car audio. 459 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: Okay, in my car, I have an aftermarket system. I 460 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: have top of the line FO call speakers. I have 461 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: a sub warfare from AVII, which I don't think is 462 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: in the business anymore. I have a JLA amplifier at 463 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: the top of the line Alpine head unit forgetting tuning, 464 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: which I'm gonna get to in a minute. Is there 465 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: any manufacturer who is selling sound of that quality, not 466 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: that enough. No, so let's just assume I drove my 467 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: car over you. That's what I got, And I said, Elliott, 468 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 1: tune in. How would you do it? 469 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: I'd have to know the program that they use to 470 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 2: install it. There's there's usually a ton of VQ available 471 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 2: for every channel. So for every speaker, is is there 472 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 2: a two channel system? 473 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: Yes? 474 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 2: Okay, so but you have multiple speakers. 475 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have a uh two in the 476 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: front doors, one in the rear door, and then the 477 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: sub warfare in the back. 478 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all those speakers have a ton of VQ probably, 479 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: so I need access to that system and I could 480 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 2: tune it from there. 481 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: Okay, let's jump back. How did you decide to get 482 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: into this business? 483 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 2: Well, it was right after nine to eleven. 484 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: No, no, no, not the car business. I decided to 485 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: get into the music business. To begin with. 486 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 2: I was a player and I knew that I wasn't 487 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 2: going to go anywhere, you know. I had a record 488 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 2: deal on London Records with the band that we were. Okay, 489 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 2: we didn't write the song. They want to release a 490 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 2: single on us, and we didn't write it. We didn't 491 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 2: do anything. They hired a bunch of great New York 492 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 2: studio guys to record the track. We could be there, 493 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: but I knew it wasn't going to happen. But being 494 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 2: in the studio. The engineer was an old timer named 495 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 2: Bob Lifton. He was a really good guy, had a 496 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 2: great recording studio, and I thought, Wow, this would really 497 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 2: be something to maybe go in this fashion. The other 498 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 2: thing is when I heard Sergeant Pepper for the first time, 499 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 2: I listened. My uncle had a pair of Costs headphones 500 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 2: and I listened to it and read the album jacket 501 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 2: and I looked at Jeff Emeric I said, I want 502 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 2: to be this guy, and you know I eventually. My 503 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 2: uncle was a New York studio musician, a trombone player, 504 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 2: and he was great friends with Phil, and I told 505 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 2: him what I want to do, and he said, meet 506 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 2: me tomorrow morning at an R and gave me the address. 507 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 2: And I walked in there and Phil was doing the 508 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 2: date and they had just finished, and my uncle told 509 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 2: him about me, and he said, let's talk and went 510 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: to his office. We talked. It was a ten minute interview. 511 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,919 Speaker 2: I was totally different than what the engineers and seconds 512 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 2: were like back then. I came in in hippie clothes 513 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 2: and most of the guys who were in jackets, ties, 514 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: white shirts, they were business guys. And Phil was staring 515 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 2: at me. I had an appleseed necklace around my neck 516 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 2: and he said, what's that you're wearing. I said, it's 517 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 2: an apple seed necklace. He says, where do you get that? Oh, 518 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 2: there's a place down in a village. Hey, can you 519 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 2: get me one? So I started that way. You know, 520 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 2: I had to get a sports jacket and ties and shirts. 521 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 2: And as a second, you were in the hole. You 522 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 2: were doing stuff you never thought you do. And I 523 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 2: ripped my jacket on the second day and I said, Phil, 524 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 2: you know I don't have enough money to do this, 525 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 2: and he said, well, can you be more pleasant than 526 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 2: what you wore to meet me? And I said, yeah, 527 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 2: I could do that. I don't have to be a hippie, 528 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 2: you know, but. 529 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: You know, yeah I could. 530 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 2: I could dress differently if I don't have to wear 531 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,439 Speaker 2: a jacket. He said, okay, I'll make that a room. Now, 532 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 2: nobody none of the seconds have to wear jackets. And 533 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 2: that's the way it was. But if for about a 534 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 2: year everybody was a hippie, they were all the engineers 535 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 2: were wearing different clothes, so it was it was great. 536 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: And let's go back before this. Where do you grow up, Brooklyn? 537 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,720 Speaker 1: And what do your parents do for a living? 538 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: My father was a mechanical engineer and a World War 539 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 2: Two hero, and my mother was a nurse. 540 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: And how many kids in the family? Two are you 541 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: the older the younger? 542 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 2: I'm the oldest. And they got divorced at some point 543 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 2: and my father had two more kids. My mother had 544 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 2: another kid, so I have a few step brothers. 545 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: Okay, your band, What did you do in the band? 546 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: What did you play? 547 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 2: How's your drummer? 548 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: Okay, drummer's always a business guy. What inspired you to 549 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: pick up the drums? 550 00:42:51,640 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 2: I don't, honestly can't remember, but seeing Jeane Kruper and 551 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 2: Buddy Rich playing a man's and what they would do, 552 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 2: I felt like I would love to do that. So 553 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 2: I talked to my uncle and he said, well, I 554 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 2: have a teacher for you in down in Manhattan Beach, 555 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 2: and you know he's a great guy. You love the guy. 556 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 2: So I started taking lessons and I was playing on 557 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 2: a pad for it seemed like a year, and I said, 558 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 2: when can I actually play in drums? He said, you 559 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 2: could play in drums anytime. And so I told to 560 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 2: my uncle, I said, you know, I don't. I wouldn't 561 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 2: know what to do, and I don't even know if 562 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 2: I have the money to buy them. And he said, 563 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 2: I'll pick it out for you. I'll take care of everything. 564 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 2: Buddy Rich which was his best friend, and he and 565 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 2: Buddy went to Manny's on forty eighth, of course, and 566 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,800 Speaker 2: picked out a drum set for me, a Slingerland drum set, 567 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 2: and that was it. You know. I brought him to 568 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 2: my house and I played drum set constantly, annoying everybody. 569 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: Right, that's gonna be my next question. Okay, did you 570 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: play in bands before the Beatles? 571 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 2: I did, but they they were bands, Like one summer 572 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 2: I worked in the Catskills and I was in a 573 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 2: band there. But what you played was fakebook stuff, you know, 574 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 2: old songs, and they were dance and that's what it was. 575 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 2: At some point I got into a surf band from 576 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 2: a surf been from Long Island. Played that for a 577 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 2: while and then when I right after high school, I 578 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 2: actually got a call to play in a band that 579 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 2: was going on the road with Little Anthony and the Imperials, 580 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 2: the ron Ats, Ruby and the Romantics. So it was 581 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 2: all three of them playing home. You know, they would 582 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 2: do plan the same night, and I did that and 583 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 2: I was the only white guy in the band, and 584 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 2: it was sort of a fun gig for me. Okay, 585 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,240 Speaker 2: was college ever in the picture. I went to Brooklyn 586 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 2: College for about six months where each class was like 587 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 2: five hundred people, and I said, no, this is not 588 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 2: working and I took off to play in a band. 589 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 1: Okay, you're on the road. You're the only white guy 590 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: there was, you know, the Civil Rights Act whatever, but 591 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: that didn't really come until Johnson. What was it like 592 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: being on the road. What insights did you gain it 593 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: being a black person on the road. 594 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 2: Well, the last the next last gig was in Miami 595 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 2: and we were in We were driving everywhere they would 596 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 2: They were on a bus, we were driving and we 597 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 2: got in the car and that night from Miami, I 598 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:51,399 Speaker 2: was driving and we asked what was the safest way 599 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 2: we were leaving at night to get through Georgia, and 600 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 2: they told us how to go and we didn't know 601 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 2: what we were driving into. And there was four black 602 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 2: eyes and me and we go through this one town 603 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,359 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, there's a red light flashing 604 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 2: behind us, and that there were no blue lights for cops. 605 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 2: It was all red lights. 606 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: And it was a. 607 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 2: Pickup truck with a gun mount behind driver. And he 608 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 2: came out and I was driving. He said to me, 609 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 2: going mighty fast, boy, And then he looked in the 610 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,280 Speaker 2: car and saw the rest of the guys were black, 611 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 2: and he said, you know what, I'm gonna turn around. 612 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 2: You follow me. I didn't even see it down and 613 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,759 Speaker 2: we go back to what this town was. It was 614 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 2: two stores, both uninhabited, but the judge lives above one 615 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 2: of them, and he woke him up, called him down, 616 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 2: and they sentenced us to five days in jail, and 617 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 2: should have been because what it was we were doing 618 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 2: thirty five. That was the last sign we saw. And 619 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 2: he said, no, it's thirty here, and the judge said 620 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,319 Speaker 2: it's seventy five dollars a point, so you need three 621 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,760 Speaker 2: seventy five if you're going to stay out of jail. 622 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:39,919 Speaker 2: Three seventy five. We didn't all make that, you know, so, 623 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 2: but they sentenced us to five days in jail. And 624 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,799 Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking about much of anything, but they had 625 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 2: to come too. They were locked up. There were two 626 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 2: cells in the basement. One was for me. The other 627 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 2: guys stayed in another cell. And you know, I didn't 628 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 2: think about it. I felt like we were, Okay, we're 629 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 2: gonna have to pay time, but it's what it was. 630 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 2: The good thing is that Jerdge's wife was a cook 631 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 2: and she burnt uspiels that were incredible. So we got along, 632 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 2: we talked, we had fun. It wasn't until I saw 633 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,279 Speaker 2: an easy Rider and I said, oh my god, man, 634 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 2: you know, we could have died in that place and 635 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 2: nobody would have ever known. But we got to have 636 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 2: got back up north. 637 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: How long were we actually in jail? 638 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 2: Five days? 639 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: Wow? There wasn't a gig that you were supposed to 640 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: be at. 641 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, we missed it. Nobody asked about us either. 642 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,320 Speaker 1: Okay, so what happens when you hear the Beatles? 643 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 2: My life changed? I mean it. I couldn't listen to 644 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 2: anything else but the Beatles, you know, every moment of 645 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 2: time and listening it was all Beatles and listening and 646 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 2: headsets through those times. Was remarkable. Hearing how these guys 647 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 2: engineered and what they did. When by the time I 648 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 2: heard Sogan Pepper, it was like amazing. How did he 649 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 2: do this? You know? I just there was no other way. 650 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,160 Speaker 2: I wanted to be a beatle. I want to work 651 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 2: with them. 652 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: So how did you get in this band that signed 653 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,240 Speaker 1: to London Records? 654 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 2: I got a call. I knew the bass player and 655 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,400 Speaker 2: he told me about what was going on. We started 656 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,759 Speaker 2: playing gigs in the Bronx at this one club that 657 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:06,719 Speaker 2: loved us, and we were there like every Thursday and Friday, Saturday, 658 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:13,360 Speaker 2: Sunday for months a time, and we got pretty good. 659 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,880 Speaker 2: We didn't look like a band, but we got good 660 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,399 Speaker 2: and they signed us. 661 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,800 Speaker 1: Okay, going back to Phil, I knew Phil, but I 662 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: knew him outside the studio. In the studio, what was 663 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: Phil's magic? What did he bring. 664 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,160 Speaker 2: Well? Like when he said to me about an artist 665 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 2: and a producer, he bront that kind of magic. How 666 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:47,120 Speaker 2: to treat people? Don't ever don't ever condemn if you're 667 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:52,879 Speaker 2: an engineer, don't ever argue with her. Second, don't put 668 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 2: him in place where he's going to be embarrassed. And 669 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,760 Speaker 2: so I think I did it once in my whole life, 670 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,080 Speaker 2: where the second did something. I said, what are you doing? 671 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 2: What are you adope? You know? And I never ever 672 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:19,720 Speaker 2: did it again because for Phil tell me and later 673 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 2: on I only knew him as an engineer. I spent 674 00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 2: my second career just working for Phil, and when he 675 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 2: started to produce, I wasn't there. I think he called 676 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 2: me twice when he said, we engineer for me on 677 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 2: these two projects. And you know, it wasn't enough to 678 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,520 Speaker 2: really get a feeling for what he was doing. But 679 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,080 Speaker 2: you know, have you seen that Billy Joel h Doc 680 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,319 Speaker 2: I mean, seeing what he was doing. I missed all that, 681 00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't see all that from Phil. You know, 682 00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 2: he was an engineer, a great engineer. 683 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,120 Speaker 1: Let's go back to when you're a second. If you're 684 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,320 Speaker 1: in a busy studio a second, you could be working 685 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,919 Speaker 1: almost around the clock, getting no sleep. What was your experience. 686 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in my first year, Phil was doing a 687 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 2: movie with Peter Yarrow and it was a movie about woodstock. 688 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:35,200 Speaker 2: It was before a woodstock and it was just the 689 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,480 Speaker 2: town was like the people who lived there and it 690 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 2: was very sany you know, it was mind bucklering. But 691 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:50,480 Speaker 2: we worked on the end of the movie. We were 692 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 2: close to the deadline and we spent I think almost 693 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 2: seventy hours in the studio just working. I don't know how. 694 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,759 Speaker 2: I know how I did it, but you know it 695 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:08,360 Speaker 2: wasn't great. 696 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 1: Okay. As a second, how did the clients treat you 697 00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,520 Speaker 1: on record dates? 698 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:25,239 Speaker 2: Great? Really great? But you know within r you would 699 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 2: work from eight in the morning till five in the 700 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:34,160 Speaker 2: evening on jingles, and those people treated you like shit. 701 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,240 Speaker 2: They just didn't like you. They thought you were low, 702 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:45,360 Speaker 2: you had you had no credibility in their eyes, or 703 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:51,480 Speaker 2: like the arranger who was doing the music, they you 704 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,719 Speaker 2: were just a boy died them. I actually did a 705 00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:01,280 Speaker 2: commercial with the arrangers said, hey boy, they didn't bother 706 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:01,920 Speaker 2: to learn. 707 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,280 Speaker 1: Your name at that point. So how did you ultimately 708 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: get behind the board? 709 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,760 Speaker 2: Phil was funny about that. He would pick us by 710 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,719 Speaker 2: anything he ever did to make somebody an engineer. I 711 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,240 Speaker 2: was doing a project with Phil. I was the second. 712 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,720 Speaker 2: It was Jimmy Smith and I think there were five 713 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 2: guys in the bed at that point, and it was 714 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 2: book Monday through Friday, and we started seven in the 715 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,640 Speaker 2: evening after the jingles had to be set up, and 716 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:44,399 Speaker 2: we worked till about midnight. On the third day, I'm 717 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,879 Speaker 2: set up. I set the whole day to Phil and 718 00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:53,359 Speaker 2: he says, or rather, it's about ten minutes before, and 719 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 2: no Phil. Phil always shut up a half an hour before. 720 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,280 Speaker 2: And I started looking for Phil and can't find him, 721 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,920 Speaker 2: not in his office, nobody. He finally calls with about 722 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,160 Speaker 2: five minutes despair, and he says, look, I got some 723 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,360 Speaker 2: problems I can't do to say, you're gonna have to 724 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 2: do it, and I'm on the phone. I said, I 725 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,359 Speaker 2: can't do this. He said, yeah, you can do it. 726 00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,759 Speaker 2: I said I can't do this. I said, you can 727 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 2: do it. Just do it. You saw how it's been working, 728 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,480 Speaker 2: Just do it. And I did it and it was good. 729 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,200 Speaker 2: It was okay. He came back to the next side 730 00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,759 Speaker 2: to finish and it was all good. And that was 731 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,880 Speaker 2: the first experience for me. 732 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about that experience. Were the MIC's already 733 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 1: set up or did you have to deal with Mike Blazman. 734 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,759 Speaker 2: Yeah? I did that because I was second, So I 735 00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,920 Speaker 2: set up on exactly what we did the previous tune now, 736 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,319 Speaker 2: so Phil would just come in and get levels. In 737 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:11,799 Speaker 2: those days, there was no EQ, no limiting. You had 738 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 2: to mic things, you had to place mikes. But you know, 739 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,479 Speaker 2: Phil would say to me, you know the guitars, run, 740 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,960 Speaker 2: go out and move the amp where's it now? And 741 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 2: he had a change the mic on the app. And 742 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,480 Speaker 2: I saw all this and learned all this, so I 743 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,760 Speaker 2: knew what was going to happen, what I needed to 744 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,280 Speaker 2: do to get sound like Phil. 745 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: At the time. How sophisticated was the board. 746 00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:48,880 Speaker 2: It was a three track radio broadcast console and we 747 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,760 Speaker 2: had I mean at the time there were four track 748 00:57:51,880 --> 00:58:01,720 Speaker 2: tape machines and Phil put in an Altech mixer, a 749 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,200 Speaker 2: six channel mixer below the desk, so if you wanted 750 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:11,040 Speaker 2: to use the fourth channel, you could use that. But generally, 751 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:16,000 Speaker 2: you know, on a big date where there was strings, horns, vocals, 752 00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:21,200 Speaker 2: all the rhythm section, you had to listen it was combined. 753 00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 2: Like Phil would put all rhythm, drums, bass, guitars, piano, anything, percussion, 754 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:34,240 Speaker 2: anything on one track on track three, but he had 755 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 2: to blend it in. He hadn't decide right then and 756 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:42,480 Speaker 2: there no going back. You could decided that the balance 757 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,120 Speaker 2: is right. And he taught me how to listen for that. 758 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,240 Speaker 1: Okay, they're all these technological breakthroughs in the late sixties 759 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,720 Speaker 1: early seventies in A and R. Did they buy that stuff? 760 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: Were they early on that stuff or were they leap. 761 00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:02,720 Speaker 2: No, they were early, yeah, at forty eighth Street. It 762 00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:08,200 Speaker 2: was right next to Manny's and there was a bar 763 00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:13,640 Speaker 2: there called Jim and Andy's, and all the musicians would 764 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:20,400 Speaker 2: go into the bar. And at some point we were 765 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:24,200 Speaker 2: being kicked out of that studio because they're going to 766 00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:30,800 Speaker 2: build a big high rise. But Phil bought Columbia Studios, 767 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:38,680 Speaker 2: the original studios on Seventh Avenue, and turned into I mean, 768 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:43,080 Speaker 2: it was one of the greatest rooms ever. Frank did 769 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:49,360 Speaker 2: all his early recordings in that room, and he did 770 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:54,600 Speaker 2: his very last recording in that room as well. And 771 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,280 Speaker 2: so when he moved, when we moved off for the 772 01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,960 Speaker 2: seventh Avenue, all of a sudden a track was out. 773 01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:09,160 Speaker 2: He bought an a track machine. He did one funny 774 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,720 Speaker 2: thing when I came there with the mic selection was 775 01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:20,280 Speaker 2: pretty incredible. He had all great two mikes and real fancy. 776 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:26,080 Speaker 2: At that point, Neuman came out with the U eighty seven, 777 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,480 Speaker 2: which he felt that was the new standard. He sold 778 01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:37,880 Speaker 2: all these great mics and put in maybe fifty U 779 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:42,520 Speaker 2: eighty seven's, you know, and we started using him. But 780 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:48,880 Speaker 2: there was something it didn't have. It was clean, it 781 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,919 Speaker 2: was a good microphone, but there was no character to it. 782 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:59,000 Speaker 2: Which all the tuoe mics had and this didn't, but 783 01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,280 Speaker 2: he did. He so that that was a change that 784 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,960 Speaker 2: needed to be made, and a lot of people were 785 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,640 Speaker 2: doing that. Most people got rid of there. They're great 786 01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,080 Speaker 2: two bikes in New York. 787 01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:23,400 Speaker 1: So we went, you know, scully out of twelve. But 788 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,840 Speaker 1: basically it went from you know, four to eight to 789 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:30,920 Speaker 1: sixteen to twenty four. Tell us about but what tell 790 01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 1: us about the evolution of the boards. 791 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:39,600 Speaker 2: Well, the boards didn't change once we got to seventh Avenue. 792 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,760 Speaker 2: There were new consoles and they were all capable. The 793 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 2: one that wasn't was a telefunking console which only had 794 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:56,880 Speaker 2: any track output, but we only had an a track 795 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:02,160 Speaker 2: machine and it usually worked out. But all the other 796 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:08,120 Speaker 2: consoles were now at sixteen and he had two consoles 797 01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:12,880 Speaker 2: made for an R by a guy named Neil Munsey, 798 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 2: a Canadian, and he built everything to do anything beyond that. 799 01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:23,880 Speaker 2: So he knew about twenty four possibly coming in, and 800 01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,480 Speaker 2: sid come in pretty fast within a couple of years, 801 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:32,720 Speaker 2: and so there were twenty four buses on those consoles. 802 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:38,920 Speaker 1: Okay, you have this Jimmy Smith date, how long had 803 01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:42,720 Speaker 1: you been a second before that date? And after that date? 804 01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,120 Speaker 1: How long does it take you to get more tied 805 01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,240 Speaker 1: behind the board. 806 01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:53,760 Speaker 2: I was a second for about eight months and fill 807 01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:58,959 Speaker 2: gaving the opportunity. But I had had plenty of time 808 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:04,720 Speaker 2: behind the console because Phil's policy was when the studio's 809 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:10,040 Speaker 2: not working, you can come in. You can bring a rehearsal, 810 01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:13,160 Speaker 2: bland or a band you like and work with them. 811 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:19,200 Speaker 2: So we had access by ourselves to the alarm system, 812 01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:23,320 Speaker 2: the elevators. You can go in and get there and 813 01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:27,640 Speaker 2: just work, and he was totally cool with that. So 814 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,040 Speaker 2: I had a pretty good amount of time but doing 815 01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:35,320 Speaker 2: demos and screwing up all the time. And it wasn't 816 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:41,760 Speaker 2: until Jimmy that I had a little more conscious about 817 01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,200 Speaker 2: what I was doing and what could be bad and 818 01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:49,080 Speaker 2: what to look for and trying to blend everything in 819 01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,600 Speaker 2: the mix that they would come in and listen to 820 01:03:52,640 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 2: it and you know, it be okay. So after that time, 821 01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:09,680 Speaker 2: I think they got me started doing jingles and that's 822 01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:14,960 Speaker 2: all I did. But then I had a friend from 823 01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:21,240 Speaker 2: high school who was a trombone player in what was 824 01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:26,240 Speaker 2: that big horn band, Blood, Blood, Sweat and Tears, Yeah, 825 01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,480 Speaker 2: and they were doing a day. The whole band was 826 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:34,760 Speaker 2: doing a day for another artist, and my friend Jerry 827 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,680 Speaker 2: called me and said, you want to do this? Yeah, 828 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:43,360 Speaker 2: you know. So it was the whole band and now 829 01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,560 Speaker 2: I was doing a record day for the first time. 830 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:53,240 Speaker 2: This is in sixty eight and it worked out well. 831 01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,360 Speaker 2: Brick came out. It was at a hit. There was 832 01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,640 Speaker 2: nothing about it that appealed to anyone, but it was fun, 833 01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,960 Speaker 2: it was good. It sounded okay to me at the time. 834 01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:10,120 Speaker 2: I never listened to it again, but from that point 835 01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:15,080 Speaker 2: on I started to get dates and the office who 836 01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:19,560 Speaker 2: booked everybody said, what you've done record date, you can 837 01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,919 Speaker 2: do others. And they were the ones that gave me Van. 838 01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,040 Speaker 1: To what degree did you have to bring in your 839 01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:33,960 Speaker 1: own business and hustle or did studio manager give you work? 840 01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:39,160 Speaker 2: Well, they gave you work for a while and they 841 01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:45,040 Speaker 2: say you're only as good as your last hip. And 842 01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:51,200 Speaker 2: I didn't have any hits at that point, but they 843 01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:55,680 Speaker 2: gave me Van and they said, you know, they actually 844 01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:59,320 Speaker 2: had a bunch of guys. Van was going from one 845 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:04,440 Speaker 2: engineer to another, but I was the last engineer that 846 01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:09,280 Speaker 2: worked with Van tracking and I stayed to mix the record. 847 01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,800 Speaker 2: So that worked out great. And when that came out, 848 01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:18,280 Speaker 2: that was wasn't a big hit where it sold a 849 01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:23,400 Speaker 2: lot of units. I think it took like three years 850 01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:28,960 Speaker 2: to go gold. But it got a tremendous amount of 851 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:34,400 Speaker 2: airplay on FM, and you know, and now I was 852 01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:38,320 Speaker 2: known for having done that and having mixed that, and 853 01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,160 Speaker 2: now calls were coming in for me and they didn't 854 01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:46,960 Speaker 2: have to place be anymore. People were actually asking can 855 01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:51,840 Speaker 2: I work with Elliott? And that was a thing, and 856 01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:55,920 Speaker 2: now I could say, well, I think I deserved more money. 857 01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:00,800 Speaker 2: And you had to go through it, you know, failed 858 01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,800 Speaker 2: to take care of that. You know, his partner did 859 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:09,840 Speaker 2: all the negotiating with engineers, and it was hard. It 860 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:14,480 Speaker 2: was difficult to get them to pay. I think the last, 861 01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:19,400 Speaker 2: the last time I worked on staff, they paid me 862 01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:24,800 Speaker 2: one thousand dollars a week. No profit sharing, no nothing, 863 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:29,040 Speaker 2: no anything, you know, but a thousand seemed pretty good. 864 01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:34,760 Speaker 2: But then I realized that I was bringing them at 865 01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:38,760 Speaker 2: least a million dollars a year in the dates I 866 01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,840 Speaker 2: was doing, And I said, I went back to him, 867 01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,480 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I think what we should do 868 01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,120 Speaker 2: is I don't want to be paid anymore by you. 869 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:54,200 Speaker 2: I want to get a commission on the hours the 870 01:07:54,360 --> 01:08:01,640 Speaker 2: tape and rentals and they hempted hard and didn't want 871 01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:05,480 Speaker 2: to do it. And I had an Ashford and Simpson 872 01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,200 Speaker 2: record coming up, and they said we're not going to 873 01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:16,240 Speaker 2: do it. So I called Valerie. I said you could 874 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,080 Speaker 2: do me a big favor. I told her what was 875 01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:23,800 Speaker 2: going on, and Nick heard about it too. I said, 876 01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:29,719 Speaker 2: canceled the time, and she called up and canceled the time, 877 01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:36,400 Speaker 2: and they said what happened? And I said, look, you 878 01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:38,760 Speaker 2: don't want to pay me. I don't want to work here. 879 01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,839 Speaker 2: I could work anywhere and get a commission. I think 880 01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:46,960 Speaker 2: I didn't know, but I was wanting to take a 881 01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:51,800 Speaker 2: chance to say why should I be here? So they 882 01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:56,000 Speaker 2: finally agreed to everything I said, and it was fifteen 883 01:08:56,080 --> 01:09:01,040 Speaker 2: percent commission. So the first week with that for Simpson, 884 01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:07,200 Speaker 2: I went from one thousand to six thousand. They went nuts. 885 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:12,320 Speaker 2: They hated it. They wanted to change it. Okay, we'll 886 01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:17,040 Speaker 2: give you fifteen percent on time and we'll give you 887 01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:22,120 Speaker 2: I think it was ten percent on rentals and five 888 01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,400 Speaker 2: percent on tape, so it came down. But I was 889 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:29,640 Speaker 2: making so much more money. You know. I stayed A 890 01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,559 Speaker 2: and R. I did everything at an R until people 891 01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,920 Speaker 2: started calling me and saying, hey, can you come out 892 01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:40,160 Speaker 2: to LA, can you do this? Can you work as 893 01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:43,799 Speaker 2: a power station? You know, so things start to happen. 894 01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,080 Speaker 1: What year was that when you started to spread out 895 01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:49,800 Speaker 1: work in other studios? 896 01:09:51,360 --> 01:10:01,240 Speaker 2: It was seventy three, okay, is. 897 01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:05,000 Speaker 1: You know people want to work with people who were successful, 898 01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:08,600 Speaker 1: and you had some success. But what else were you 899 01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,040 Speaker 1: bringing to the studio? What was the magic that you 900 01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:12,400 Speaker 1: had that others didn't have? 901 01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:19,960 Speaker 2: God, I wish I could say I don't really know. 902 01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:26,040 Speaker 2: I mean I knew from Phil like it was something 903 01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,400 Speaker 2: to set up a room. You know, you're working with 904 01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,680 Speaker 2: an artist for maybe two weeks at a time. They 905 01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:39,519 Speaker 2: had a room totally blocked out, and I was working 906 01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:44,519 Speaker 2: with a band called Jackie. The artist was a guy 907 01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:51,280 Speaker 2: named Jackie Lomax. He's still live anymore, yeah, And they 908 01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:55,760 Speaker 2: wanted to record everything live and he wanted to sing. 909 01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,160 Speaker 2: And the room we were working in had one vocal 910 01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:03,040 Speaker 2: with so he was set up in there, but the drums, 911 01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:08,960 Speaker 2: the bass and two guitars. Now two guitars, would you know? 912 01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:11,759 Speaker 2: It wasn't the right room to be doing this then. 913 01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:20,240 Speaker 2: And I ended up and was I got scaffolds in 914 01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:23,960 Speaker 2: the room. They were about eight feet high and I 915 01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:28,800 Speaker 2: had the amps put on the scaffolds, thinking well, be 916 01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:34,439 Speaker 2: less stuff going through the floor, and we did that way. 917 01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:38,479 Speaker 2: But when they walked in and saw this, they were like, 918 01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:47,040 Speaker 2: holy shit, this looked great. You know, so I accomplished 919 01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:52,320 Speaker 2: something doing that. To me, it sounded awful. You know, 920 01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:57,160 Speaker 2: it really didn't work. But they loved it, and Jackie 921 01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:02,280 Speaker 2: loved it, and he love everything about it. So that's 922 01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:04,920 Speaker 2: the only thing I could think of it, you know. 923 01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 2: I had people thought I had magic with drums, and 924 01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:16,479 Speaker 2: it maybe did because they started work with Steely and 925 01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:22,000 Speaker 2: they wanted something that was different, and I did what 926 01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:25,960 Speaker 2: they wanted and I started to get place. So well, 927 01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:30,080 Speaker 2: that's the guy only does is Steely Dan. And if 928 01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:32,880 Speaker 2: you want your record to sound like that, you know, 929 01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:38,559 Speaker 2: and most guys didn't, so it was problem getting bagged 930 01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:39,120 Speaker 2: like that. 931 01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,640 Speaker 1: Okay, in the early days, you talk about mixing, you know, 932 01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,799 Speaker 1: recording three tracks, you're talking about phill blending the sound. 933 01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:53,920 Speaker 1: But it's not very long till we had sixty channels. Yeah, 934 01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:56,240 Speaker 1: you got to mix down to twenty four, et cetera, 935 01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:59,599 Speaker 1: et cetera. How did you learn how to mix? Trial 936 01:12:59,640 --> 01:12:59,960 Speaker 1: and error? 937 01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:11,720 Speaker 2: It was for me it was using speakers that were 938 01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:17,320 Speaker 2: not very good and listening to a mix at a 939 01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:23,960 Speaker 2: very low level. You could barely hear anything that was 940 01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:28,800 Speaker 2: going on. You had a demand such quiet in a 941 01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:34,400 Speaker 2: room when you mixed, and you know, I insisted I 942 01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:38,400 Speaker 2: would never let anybody put their hands on a console 943 01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:43,000 Speaker 2: and say can I do the guitar or can I 944 01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:47,000 Speaker 2: do the bass or I never did that, And Steely 945 01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:51,080 Speaker 2: was the first one that said that. Where Walter wanted 946 01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:55,240 Speaker 2: to work guitar, Gary one who worked the vocal. You know, 947 01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:59,760 Speaker 2: it was just like and finally, after about two passes 948 01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:04,759 Speaker 2: at Black Cow, I said, this is not working. 949 01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:06,040 Speaker 1: You know, you. 950 01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:10,639 Speaker 2: Guys are making mistakes and you're lasting up what I'm doing. 951 01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,840 Speaker 2: I can do this all, just let me do it. 952 01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:17,160 Speaker 2: And they backed off and that's where it went from 953 01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:19,920 Speaker 2: there on. I did everything by myself. 954 01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:26,200 Speaker 1: Okay, there were very particular cats you mixed, and you 955 01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:30,040 Speaker 1: sent them to mix. What did they say? How many 956 01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:32,559 Speaker 1: times did you have to remix a tweak till they 957 01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:33,520 Speaker 1: were satisfied? 958 01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:40,320 Speaker 2: On Asia, that was the first record I mixed for him, 959 01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:51,120 Speaker 2: and it only happened on one cut on Asia, And 960 01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:56,080 Speaker 2: what happened we did the cut? It was twenty four track, 961 01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:01,000 Speaker 2: and it was loaded with different you know, on one 962 01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:04,680 Speaker 2: track there would be a guitar, a vocal, you know, 963 01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:08,639 Speaker 2: different things on the track, and you constantly you'd get 964 01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:12,559 Speaker 2: as far as the verse and have to repatch certain things, 965 01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:17,120 Speaker 2: or had setups for where you knew you were going 966 01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:21,360 Speaker 2: to have to bring that fader down to and we 967 01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:24,080 Speaker 2: did that. And there was one spot in the mix 968 01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:30,400 Speaker 2: right after Steve's solo where the bass had to cut out, 969 01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:38,799 Speaker 2: and I had to cut it out before and after 970 01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:42,240 Speaker 2: the solo we went back into the next part. I 971 01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:45,960 Speaker 2: never put the bass on because you could hear a 972 01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:50,200 Speaker 2: little bit of the bass through the drums, and I 973 01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:56,040 Speaker 2: thought it seemed okay. They got back to California and 974 01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,600 Speaker 2: I get called from Gary and he says, there's this 975 01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:04,880 Speaker 2: Asia has no base in the end. I said, no, 976 01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:10,000 Speaker 2: that can't be. You know, we're coming back. We want 977 01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:15,960 Speaker 2: to do that, do that again. And I started thinking 978 01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:20,639 Speaker 2: about it and realize, you know, maybe I didn't put 979 01:16:20,640 --> 01:16:26,920 Speaker 2: the base on, and sure enough I didn't. So but 980 01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:30,920 Speaker 2: I had notes for Asia, I had photographs where the 981 01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:34,120 Speaker 2: EQ was where you know, it was all manual. There 982 01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:40,200 Speaker 2: was no computers, no nothing. So that morning I got 983 01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:45,280 Speaker 2: to mix up close, really close to where it was, 984 01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:49,640 Speaker 2: and I said, they walked in the city and I said, 985 01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:53,839 Speaker 2: you guys are fucking crazy. There's plenty of base on there. 986 01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,080 Speaker 2: I kicked it up point and I said, listen to this, 987 01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:06,639 Speaker 2: and I played the take and they said, no, that's 988 01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:12,000 Speaker 2: that does sound like what we have And I started laughing. 989 01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:17,040 Speaker 2: You know what you do? Try to remix it? Yeah, 990 01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,439 Speaker 2: you know, I got it up. I said, okay, let's 991 01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:24,439 Speaker 2: start again. And when we started a whole song from 992 01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:27,240 Speaker 2: the beginning the first time it took I think it 993 01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:29,000 Speaker 2: took three days to mix that. 994 01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:34,280 Speaker 1: Generally speaking, do you mix fast or slow? 995 01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:43,040 Speaker 2: Well, from doing jingles, they used to mix fast. By 996 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:49,160 Speaker 2: the time I got to the Eagles and Steely Steely first, Yeah, 997 01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:50,840 Speaker 2: I was mixing pretty son. 998 01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:56,479 Speaker 1: Okay, let's use the Eagles as an example. By time 999 01:17:56,520 --> 01:18:00,160 Speaker 1: you work with Eagles, they've had experience with a lot 1000 01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:04,880 Speaker 1: of other people. So what's it like working with a 1001 01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:09,320 Speaker 1: client that you know you're new, but they're not new 1002 01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:13,040 Speaker 1: to their own music? How demanding and how accepting of 1003 01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:13,720 Speaker 1: you are they? 1004 01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:20,839 Speaker 2: Well, I had been working with Glenn a lot before 1005 01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:24,000 Speaker 2: they got back together, so I did a bunch of 1006 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,680 Speaker 2: things with him and I had quite a few hits. 1007 01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:33,080 Speaker 2: So when they got back together, Glenn said, Glenn called 1008 01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:37,200 Speaker 2: me up. He said, because there was nothing going on, 1009 01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:42,920 Speaker 2: he said, I feel like doing an Needles record. I said, no, 1010 01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:48,040 Speaker 2: come on really, and he said, yeah, we're getting back 1011 01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:51,440 Speaker 2: to here. Do we want you to do it? I 1012 01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:55,080 Speaker 2: was beside myself, and Irving called me up. He said, 1013 01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:57,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to fly you out. I want you to 1014 01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:05,000 Speaker 2: have the band rehearsing because it's for MTV. And I 1015 01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:09,240 Speaker 2: came out. They were all on acoustic guitars. Acousta pays, 1016 01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:13,479 Speaker 2: no dryme stuff going on. Just hearing these guys sing, 1017 01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:19,439 Speaker 2: and it was mind boggling that these guys sounded as 1018 01:19:19,479 --> 01:19:25,960 Speaker 2: good as they were and they accept me. I knew 1019 01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:30,479 Speaker 2: Timmy from before because he was in Jimmy Buffett's ban 1020 01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:36,920 Speaker 2: for a while. And meeting Joe and Don and Felder, 1021 01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:40,120 Speaker 2: you know, it was a great experience for me. I 1022 01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:46,160 Speaker 2: felt very comfortable. The hours were incredibly long, but it 1023 01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:47,160 Speaker 2: was well worth it. 1024 01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:00,920 Speaker 1: So once you start to have a success today producers 1025 01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,400 Speaker 1: have managers, et cetera. But we're going back. You know, 1026 01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:06,479 Speaker 1: you're there more in the beginning when it blows up 1027 01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:09,719 Speaker 1: Are you hustling for work yourself or are you sitting 1028 01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:11,080 Speaker 1: there waiting for the phone to ring? 1029 01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:15,720 Speaker 2: What's it like in what party, what time period? 1030 01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:19,080 Speaker 1: Let's start with the seventies. You leave you know, you're 1031 01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:21,880 Speaker 1: talking about seventy three, you leave A and R, And 1032 01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:24,160 Speaker 1: let's talk about that period. There was a lot of 1033 01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:27,800 Speaker 1: money before the business crashed in seventy nine. Could you 1034 01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:30,479 Speaker 1: just wait for the phone to ring? Or were you 1035 01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:32,599 Speaker 1: out working it saying hey, yeah, you know you need 1036 01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:34,840 Speaker 1: to work with me. I'm good, you know, you know. 1037 01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:39,320 Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. I had a manager and they were 1038 01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:44,519 Speaker 2: pretty big, very good, and I never heard at all. 1039 01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:47,639 Speaker 2: I mean, I was working all the time in those 1040 01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:53,599 Speaker 2: years in the nineties, the beginning, like ninety one ninety two, 1041 01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:58,559 Speaker 2: it was harder work with us. 1042 01:20:59,120 --> 01:20:59,960 Speaker 1: So how'd you cope with it? 1043 01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:06,960 Speaker 2: I didn't work And that was at that point. That 1044 01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:12,439 Speaker 2: was when it was like ninety three. Glenn called me 1045 01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:15,240 Speaker 2: up and said, do you want to do an Eagles record? 1046 01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:22,439 Speaker 2: And that changed my life right then doing the Eagles. 1047 01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,000 Speaker 2: I had so much stuff after that. 1048 01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:29,960 Speaker 1: So doing the Eagles, did people call you just because 1049 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,080 Speaker 1: you did the Eagles? 1050 01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:38,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? And because it was MTV. It was what they 1051 01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:46,559 Speaker 2: call that show unplugged, right. So right after that, I 1052 01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:50,400 Speaker 2: got a call from Fleetwood Mac. They were doing Unplugged. 1053 01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:53,040 Speaker 2: They wanted me to do that, but they wanted me 1054 01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:58,240 Speaker 2: to produce it as well with Lindsay, so I did that. 1055 01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:05,200 Speaker 2: After that, I got a call from John Sometimes the 1056 01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:12,679 Speaker 2: mind goes Cretin's clear Water. He was doing the same 1057 01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,519 Speaker 2: thing and he said, well, you do mine, and I 1058 01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:20,760 Speaker 2: did his. So it was We're constantly coming in and 1059 01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:24,640 Speaker 2: after that, people just I would do a lot of 1060 01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:28,760 Speaker 2: unplug seth just mixing. They weren't me to mix it 1061 01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:29,879 Speaker 2: more than anything. 1062 01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:39,160 Speaker 1: Well in those days, you know, like sometime in the seventies, 1063 01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:45,080 Speaker 1: FM would broadcast live stuff in stereo. But mixing. You know, 1064 01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:47,800 Speaker 1: when you're mixing Asia, you want it to sound good 1065 01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:50,840 Speaker 1: on small speakers, but you also want high fidelity. You're 1066 01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,759 Speaker 1: mixing for television. Most people are listening to a tiny 1067 01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:55,880 Speaker 1: little speaker. How do you do that? 1068 01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:02,920 Speaker 2: Well, by the nineties it was stere and you know, 1069 01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:06,439 Speaker 2: I'd been using the end it's tens for a while 1070 01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:11,600 Speaker 2: and I knew what level to listen to and what 1071 01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:15,960 Speaker 2: would give me in return. So you know, if they 1072 01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:19,760 Speaker 2: were there was always a set of General X or 1073 01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,400 Speaker 2: something nearby, so if the band came in, they could 1074 01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:25,240 Speaker 2: hear it a louder on those. 1075 01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:31,000 Speaker 1: Okay, are you still a fan of the NS Tens? 1076 01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:33,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? I am. 1077 01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:38,679 Speaker 1: Okay, So I call you to work to what degree 1078 01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:40,400 Speaker 1: are you particular about equipment? 1079 01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:50,000 Speaker 2: I'm particular. You know. I've done all my best work 1080 01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:54,679 Speaker 2: on a Neive console, so I try and to always 1081 01:23:54,800 --> 01:24:01,680 Speaker 2: work on an EVE. I'll direct some to a studio 1082 01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:03,320 Speaker 2: that has an EVE. 1083 01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:07,280 Speaker 1: So what's your take on SSL? When that became in 1084 01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:10,559 Speaker 1: and they had their automation, et cetera. What did you 1085 01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:13,000 Speaker 1: not hear or there? What did you not like about it? 1086 01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:19,040 Speaker 2: I didn't like the EQ very much, but I did 1087 01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:27,280 Speaker 2: an album. He was a songwriter, an Irish songwriter, Gary 1088 01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:31,160 Speaker 2: Katz produced it, and he asked me to come over 1089 01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:32,879 Speaker 2: to Paul Brady. 1090 01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:33,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1091 01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:41,560 Speaker 2: Paul Brady, Yeah, And I was mixing on the SSL, 1092 01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:46,320 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden I went to recall a 1093 01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:52,439 Speaker 2: mix and erased it, and every time I went back, 1094 01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:58,000 Speaker 2: it would erase a mix. So after that, I said, 1095 01:24:58,360 --> 01:24:59,240 Speaker 2: I'm done with this. 1096 01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:02,400 Speaker 1: Although I happened to love the sound of the record. 1097 01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:06,640 Speaker 1: That's a great record. Yeah, thanks, really, I listened to 1098 01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:09,840 Speaker 1: that record, can't stop wanting you and then trick or 1099 01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,559 Speaker 1: treat with Bonnie Braid. So what point do you get 1100 01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:14,839 Speaker 1: a percentage? I'm talking about a royalty. 1101 01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:25,920 Speaker 2: It really started with me with Hornsby, the very first 1102 01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:30,120 Speaker 2: Hornsby record. That was you know, I had earned royalties, 1103 01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:36,720 Speaker 2: but you know ten bucks a quarter orangsby having a 1104 01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:40,320 Speaker 2: record like that, it was very big. I mean it 1105 01:25:40,360 --> 01:25:41,439 Speaker 2: bought me in my house. 1106 01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:45,679 Speaker 1: Do you remember how many points was at one point? 1107 01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:46,559 Speaker 1: Or what was it? 1108 01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:52,160 Speaker 2: Uh? It was it was two. 1109 01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:57,559 Speaker 1: Okay, we're all getting older by the minute new people 1110 01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,639 Speaker 1: come up. Does it get to a point people say 1111 01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:03,800 Speaker 1: I don't want you, I want the younger guy. He 1112 01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:06,280 Speaker 1: worked on the younger thing. Do you find that ageism 1113 01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:07,840 Speaker 1: involved irrelevant of talent? 1114 01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:14,519 Speaker 2: Well? I know that's the reason nobody else says it 1115 01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:17,800 Speaker 2: to you. You know, and I think about some of 1116 01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:21,640 Speaker 2: the artists and making records stay They don't want to 1117 01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,120 Speaker 2: work with me, but I don't really want to work 1118 01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:30,200 Speaker 2: with them either, you know. So you know we're taking 1119 01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,599 Speaker 2: it on the road and telling your stories. Now. 1120 01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:40,479 Speaker 1: Okay, it switches to digital this century in terms of 1121 01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:45,479 Speaker 1: recording on computers. You know, pro tools, logic, et cetera. 1122 01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:49,599 Speaker 1: That's a huge evolution when that starts to happen. Are 1123 01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:51,960 Speaker 1: you all in and learning? Are you like one of 1124 01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:54,439 Speaker 1: the people say no, no, no, I'm holding on that 1125 01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:55,479 Speaker 1: stuff will never work. 1126 01:26:56,479 --> 01:27:01,439 Speaker 2: No. No. I went along with it, but it never 1127 01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:07,960 Speaker 2: ever said don't use analog. I was still in favor 1128 01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:14,599 Speaker 2: of doing analog before approach tools and sitting here, I 1129 01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:18,679 Speaker 2: haven't told you this. Josh knew it, but sitting here 1130 01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:25,320 Speaker 2: in the corners George best merk and he hasn't heard 1131 01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:29,599 Speaker 2: anything because I'm in buds. But we used to get 1132 01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:33,800 Speaker 2: in arguments all the time about Didge and analog, and 1133 01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:37,200 Speaker 2: he would say, you don't know what you're talking about. 1134 01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:42,920 Speaker 2: Dig is better, and I would just be off on analog. 1135 01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:48,720 Speaker 2: And finally one day we got a call from Berkeley 1136 01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:54,240 Speaker 2: in Boston to both take part in doing working with 1137 01:27:54,479 --> 01:28:00,439 Speaker 2: Kathy Mattea. She was there doing a writing clinic and 1138 01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:03,040 Speaker 2: they had written a song and they wanted to record it, 1139 01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:05,599 Speaker 2: and George and I came up there to do it, 1140 01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:10,080 Speaker 2: and uh, he wanted to do it? Did I want 1141 01:28:10,120 --> 01:28:16,920 Speaker 2: to do analog? And we did it both ways, and 1142 01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:24,080 Speaker 2: after we were done, George looked at me, George, remember 1143 01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:30,000 Speaker 2: what you said, no, he said. 1144 01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:36,519 Speaker 4: The analog does sound betater. Okay. At this late date, 1145 01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:40,400 Speaker 4: you know, there's hard to get tape. There was that 1146 01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:42,080 Speaker 4: class system for a while. 1147 01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,400 Speaker 1: They was supposed to imitate analog, but the sampling rates 1148 01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:50,760 Speaker 1: have gotten higher and higher and higher. Yeah, today, how 1149 01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:56,880 Speaker 1: do you feel about digital compunity analog the same? 1150 01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:03,240 Speaker 2: You know? I I always when I did antalog, I 1151 01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:07,320 Speaker 2: always work with Dolbie. You know, I recorded a fifteen 1152 01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:12,960 Speaker 2: with Doby's, so the noise level was pretty good, you know, 1153 01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:15,720 Speaker 2: and to day I like that. 1154 01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:25,080 Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk vinyl. So in the old days, the 1155 01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:28,080 Speaker 1: records were cut out aalog and they're on a vinyl record, 1156 01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:33,920 Speaker 1: which inherently has compromises. Does it make any sense to 1157 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,200 Speaker 1: have a digital recording on vinyl. 1158 01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:47,080 Speaker 2: Well, they're doing it, that's not my question. Yeah, I 1159 01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:54,160 Speaker 2: think so, whether it's good or not, it could be. 1160 01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:57,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. If I couldn't stay one way or 1161 01:29:57,080 --> 01:30:00,960 Speaker 2: the other. Oh no, don't do that. You know, people 1162 01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:05,280 Speaker 2: love vinyl, and you know, there's a fair amount of 1163 01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:13,120 Speaker 2: vinyl being sold now, especially in New York. And I've 1164 01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:19,280 Speaker 2: done digital records that came out on vinyl and they 1165 01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:23,719 Speaker 2: sound great, and you know, with new formats and Vinyl 1166 01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:25,799 Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty. 1167 01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:30,400 Speaker 1: They're pretty great. Wait, let's hold on a second. You're 1168 01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:35,759 Speaker 1: cutting digital, there's no compromises. When it goes to vinyl. 1169 01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:40,680 Speaker 1: There are a million compromises. You know, roll off this 1170 01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:43,000 Speaker 1: and that. Doesn't that affect the sound? 1171 01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:50,760 Speaker 2: Well. A lot of them are doing one side double records, 1172 01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:55,599 Speaker 2: so you know you get two songs on the side. 1173 01:30:56,560 --> 01:31:01,720 Speaker 2: It's pretty good. Yeah, I can't complain about that. I've done. 1174 01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:09,519 Speaker 2: I did some. George did a record with Jennifer that 1175 01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:15,400 Speaker 2: was what record was famous, famous Blue Rine Code, and 1176 01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,760 Speaker 2: I did the one right after and they were both done. 1177 01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:24,519 Speaker 2: You did digital, right, Yeah, I did too, But I 1178 01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,160 Speaker 2: did Yeah, it was tape at that point. It was 1179 01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:32,040 Speaker 2: ditch tape, uh and it went the final and it 1180 01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:36,280 Speaker 2: sounded great. I couldn't complain about anything. 1181 01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:40,920 Speaker 1: Okay, when you were talking earlier about this person who 1182 01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:46,799 Speaker 1: stiffed you shipping your gear, do you still travel with gear? 1183 01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:57,240 Speaker 2: No, not anymore. I just make sure that they have 1184 01:31:57,439 --> 01:32:01,360 Speaker 2: what I need at the studio, and its usually speakers, 1185 01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:06,640 Speaker 2: and most places have in us sense, and that in 1186 01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:11,680 Speaker 2: itself is if they haven't even n s tense in goodbye, 1187 01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:12,559 Speaker 2: some set. 1188 01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:17,480 Speaker 1: Okay, do you ever get starstruck? 1189 01:32:19,840 --> 01:32:34,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, when the Eagles the MTV thing came out. We're 1190 01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:39,000 Speaker 2: up for a couple of awards and I had co 1191 01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:47,080 Speaker 2: produced set, and I got the the Grammys Radio City. 1192 01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:54,160 Speaker 2: And in all the times that I'd done interviews for magazines, 1193 01:32:54,880 --> 01:32:57,800 Speaker 2: they would always say, well, who if you work with, 1194 01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:01,840 Speaker 2: who do you want to work that you haven't worked with? 1195 01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:09,120 Speaker 2: And I would always say Peter Gabriel. And so we 1196 01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:14,880 Speaker 2: went to the awards and my wife and I were 1197 01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:19,240 Speaker 2: in the third borough at Radio City, and on my 1198 01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:27,360 Speaker 2: side was Peter Gabriel. On her side was an Evedder 1199 01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:32,920 Speaker 2: and I turned around. He introduced himself to me and 1200 01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:36,640 Speaker 2: I told him who I was, and I must have 1201 01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:41,559 Speaker 2: said it fifty times Peter Gabriel, you know. And he said, oh, wait, 1202 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:44,640 Speaker 2: are you the guy that wanted to work with me? 1203 01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:47,200 Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, I'm that guy. 1204 01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:48,400 Speaker 1: He said, what for. 1205 01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:54,840 Speaker 2: What? I thought it would be good for me? 1206 01:33:57,000 --> 01:33:58,000 Speaker 1: So was that it? 1207 01:33:58,960 --> 01:33:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? 1208 01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:02,479 Speaker 1: That was it? So he never called you, you know, 1209 01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:04,920 Speaker 1: after all that, But I. 1210 01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:10,640 Speaker 2: Did get a call from Phil Collins. I did the 1211 01:34:10,920 --> 01:34:14,479 Speaker 2: Tarzan movie with him. 1212 01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:18,240 Speaker 1: Okay, so to what degree are you still working today? 1213 01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:25,719 Speaker 2: I'm still working, but not as much, and I don't 1214 01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:29,200 Speaker 2: want to make records when nobody's playing with each other. 1215 01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:34,840 Speaker 2: So I'm doing more jazz than they used to. And 1216 01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:38,120 Speaker 2: I like what happens. And a lot of people talk 1217 01:34:38,200 --> 01:34:43,799 Speaker 2: about what happens with jazz band and what feeds it. 1218 01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:48,280 Speaker 2: Like George, did he tell you about his encounter with 1219 01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:53,440 Speaker 2: A one He was I think he's on Claude and 1220 01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:59,160 Speaker 2: he sent them a message saying AI. And he sent 1221 01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:04,559 Speaker 2: them a mess it's saying, why does AI music sound 1222 01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:09,880 Speaker 2: so fucking awful? And they wrote back to him and 1223 01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:15,400 Speaker 2: they said, well, they're probably not playing in the same room. Uh, 1224 01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:20,400 Speaker 2: they're not together, you know? Was there a lot more 1225 01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:29,400 Speaker 2: than that? The six points come here. 1226 01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:31,240 Speaker 3: But the idea of it being impossible for AI to 1227 01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:35,000 Speaker 3: have intentionality? You remember this, I said you. 1228 01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:38,240 Speaker 1: Of course, George, we started off with it, and I 1229 01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:41,640 Speaker 1: totally agree with you. He h. 1230 01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:45,320 Speaker 3: Do you remember when we used to share buds with 1231 01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:48,800 Speaker 3: our girlfriends but one guy yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and 1232 01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:56,760 Speaker 3: the other would take right right. And AI has these uh, 1233 01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:00,200 Speaker 3: these limitations, right, I've got to put it in the 1234 01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:00,599 Speaker 3: right ear. 1235 01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:02,639 Speaker 1: Okay. 1236 01:36:04,479 --> 01:36:08,080 Speaker 3: AI has basic limitations that are pretty hard to overcome. 1237 01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:12,719 Speaker 3: But one is that it can't have intentionality. It can't intend. 1238 01:36:14,320 --> 01:36:16,000 Speaker 3: It can't intend to write a song. 1239 01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:20,439 Speaker 1: Well, I find it interesting that all the talk from 1240 01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:24,639 Speaker 1: the record companies is about AI. When you talk about 1241 01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:28,320 Speaker 1: the intentionality and the creative process, no one is focusing 1242 01:36:28,439 --> 01:36:28,800 Speaker 1: on that. 1243 01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:35,880 Speaker 3: No, but that's that's what gives music. It's humanity. 1244 01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:38,600 Speaker 1: I agree, and that's one of the problems with the 1245 01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:39,400 Speaker 1: business today. 1246 01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:46,360 Speaker 3: Absolutely, but it can't. It can't. AI can't say, ah, wait, 1247 01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:50,200 Speaker 3: I'm lacking humanity. Maybe I can fill it in with 1248 01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:55,040 Speaker 3: this element of humanity. AI can't do that. It can't 1249 01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:56,280 Speaker 3: self evaluate. 1250 01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:01,040 Speaker 1: Well, I think that we've lived through thirty plus years 1251 01:37:01,040 --> 01:37:05,400 Speaker 1: of technological innovation and the new new thing, and they 1252 01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:07,960 Speaker 1: keep focusing on this. It's like, oh, it's going to 1253 01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:10,840 Speaker 1: be another step. When I agree with you, you can 1254 01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:14,840 Speaker 1: get listen. I think we talked about this. AI can't 1255 01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:18,360 Speaker 1: create something new. It can only be an amalgamation of 1256 01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:21,040 Speaker 1: what came from the past. And this is a business 1257 01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:23,720 Speaker 1: that's all focused on the new got I who can 1258 01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:25,960 Speaker 1: they come up with that? That's what we're looking for. 1259 01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:32,160 Speaker 3: It's also AI is invariably a mix of other other 1260 01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:37,400 Speaker 3: forms and other approaches, other ideas, to the point where 1261 01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:42,400 Speaker 3: the result of a cycle of AI where it's cycles 1262 01:37:42,479 --> 01:37:52,040 Speaker 3: where it goes through organizing a result an average result, 1263 01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:58,080 Speaker 3: you inevitably end up with a beige sludge of mixed ideas. 1264 01:37:58,720 --> 01:38:03,719 Speaker 3: And that that's not new, that's that's just pablem that's 1265 01:38:03,720 --> 01:38:11,679 Speaker 3: that's uh. That's not something that establishes a new type 1266 01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:18,720 Speaker 3: of music. Good vibrations. I can't invent good vibrations. It's 1267 01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:22,080 Speaker 3: not an average of anything. It's new, and it's came 1268 01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:26,000 Speaker 3: from somebody's recesses of somebody's brain. In this case, Brian 1269 01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:30,080 Speaker 3: was his brain. Who knows where that came from? 1270 01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:32,960 Speaker 1: Well articulated In any event, you're both there and I 1271 01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:37,000 Speaker 1: know you're having a rehearsal tomorrow before you go live. 1272 01:38:37,160 --> 01:38:40,600 Speaker 1: I want to wish both of you good luck. It 1273 01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:43,479 Speaker 1: sounds like you're doing well. It's sold out to begin with, 1274 01:38:44,080 --> 01:38:47,120 Speaker 1: and Elliott, I want to thank you so much for 1275 01:38:47,160 --> 01:38:49,880 Speaker 1: telling your stories today. You're not on screen even though 1276 01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:51,840 Speaker 1: we're audio only. Can you hear me there? 1277 01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:52,720 Speaker 2: Yes? 1278 01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:57,439 Speaker 1: I can, Okay, there is. I could tell. It's funny 1279 01:38:57,520 --> 01:39:01,120 Speaker 1: because in a lot of businesses, you know, competitors don't 1280 01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:04,920 Speaker 1: get along, but you guys are big buddies, so that's 1281 01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:07,920 Speaker 1: great to see so Elliott, thanks so much for taking 1282 01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:09,080 Speaker 1: this time with my audience. 1283 01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:13,640 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. You know, we've 1284 01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:20,120 Speaker 2: you've always said things about me in your interviews before, 1285 01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:26,439 Speaker 2: and there were such nice things. You know, it was 1286 01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:29,639 Speaker 2: could have finally got a chance to be with you. 1287 01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:34,120 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I always admire excellence and some of 1288 01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:38,280 Speaker 1: those records. I mean that that Hornsby record. I forgot 1289 01:39:38,360 --> 01:39:42,280 Speaker 1: you did that, but that Paul Brady, you know that. 1290 01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:44,559 Speaker 1: You know, Irving sent me some of the stuff before 1291 01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:47,120 Speaker 1: it came out. The Eagles, did you tell you just 1292 01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:54,360 Speaker 1: hear those voices together go wow? Yeah, yeah, really something Okay, 1293 01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:57,439 Speaker 1: until next time. This is Bob Left six