1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from dot Com. Hello, 2 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I am Tracy B. Wilson 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Fry. We are back today with Dr 4 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: Katherine sharp Land Deck of Texas Women's University, who has 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: been studying the Women Air Force Service Pilots or WASP 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: of World War Two for the last twenty years. These 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: were women who flew military aircraft all over the United 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: States during World War Two, doing everything from ferrying aircraft 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: and people from one place to another to towing targets 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: to be used for live ammunition practice. This program was 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: both an experiment to see what women could handle and 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: an effort to free up mail pilots for the war. 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: Kate really graciously agreed to sit down to talk to 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: me about the WASP, their history, their work, and their legacy, 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: and she had such marvelous things to say that we 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: are airing the interview in two parts. Today is the 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: second part, and this is gonna start by talking about 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: what the duties of the women that were part of 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: the WASP program were during the war and how they evolved. 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: And it may surprise you to learn which of them 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: were more dangerous than others. Just this first answer that 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: Kate gives Tracy is packed with information on the WASP 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: and the aircraft they flew and what it really took 24 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: to fly them. So a lot of the first duties 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: that were assigned to the WASP were basically pretty basic 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: things like let's let's we need to move the aircraft 27 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: from where they were built to where they need to go, 28 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: or we need to move the chaplain from this base 29 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: to this base to do Sunday service, like just basically 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: moving people and equipment from one place to another so 31 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: that the mail pilots could be freed up for more 32 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: intense combat duties. But over the time that the program 33 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: was going on, women started doing things like towing targets 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: to be shot at with live ammunition. Or Paul Tibots, 35 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: who would later go on to pilot the Inola Gay, 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: actually recruited to WASP to demonstrate the B twenty nine bomber, 37 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: which was prone to catching on fire if it was 38 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: not if it didn't take off properly, and and so 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: the men were kind of scared to fly it, and 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: so Paul Tipots recruited these two wasps to demonstrate it 41 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: for the men, sort of circle back to what you 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: had said previously about the airplane so easy even a 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: woman can fly it. So to me, it's a startlingly 44 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: short amount of time between we're basically going to use 45 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 1: women to to move people and stuff around, too, we're 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: going to use women to literally tow targets to be 47 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: shot at. How did that evolution actually take place, to 48 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: go from being really reluctant to have women flying at 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: all and doing extremely basic stuff to being shot at? Well, 50 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: And I think this is good, And I think there's 51 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: a couple of things here. First, it's important to recognize 52 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: that the work of ferrying the planes was actually um 53 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: in some ways more dangerous than the work of towing 54 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: the targets and being shot at. It's hard to just 55 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: think of those terms, right the firing with live ammulation, 56 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: it always sounds worse. But a couple of things. So first, 57 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: the ferrying jobs, the women were brought in because we 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: needed ferry pilots. That was that was the part of 59 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: the Army Air Forces that was the most desperate um 60 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: and needed pilots most because we're building hundreds of thousands 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: of airplanes at factories, factories in California, factories in Detroit 62 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: factories in you know, oh Maha, and then and you know, 63 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: all over the country we're building these planes and they 64 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: have to get to training bases all across the countries 65 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: for pilots to learn to fly. And then the bigger planes, 66 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: the bombers and the pursuit aircraft have to be flown 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: two different coasts, right. I mean a lot of the 68 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: pursuits were built in Long Beach, California, and we were 69 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: finding a war in Europe, you know, so they had 70 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: to be flown all the way across the country. And 71 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: I think it's important to think, take yourself back and 72 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: put yourself into the reality of navigation in the nineteen forties. 73 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: They don't have GPS is on board, right, They have 74 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: very limited navigation, and they have to these these pursuit planes, 75 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: especially are single pilot planes. So you're in this plane alone, 76 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: and you're flying this plane over mountains, uh and across 77 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: the country with very limited navigation. So it's much of 78 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: its see to your pants flying getting from point A 79 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: to point B, finding the proper airfields to land that 80 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: to get fuel because that only lasts so long, and 81 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: and it's very independent work. It's very you know here's 82 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: the airplane, go flyt uh. Many of these h airplanes, 83 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: the very pilots men and women, right because remember their 84 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: men doing these labs too. But these ferry pilots, they 85 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: would be the first one to fly an airplane, right 86 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: they would. They would literally roll off the end of 87 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: the assembly line and the pilot would be handed the 88 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: keys basically and told here you go. Uh. So they're 89 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: they're test flying these brand new airplanes and hoping rose 90 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: through the riveter had really riveted it. Right, So this 91 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: is important flying that had to be done, and and 92 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: it's dangerous uh and and takes a lot of independent 93 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: thinking and skills. But then you're quite right that the 94 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: job of the women expands because the Air Army Air 95 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: Forces wanted to see what women could do. Okay, well, 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: women are good at ferry pilots. And and again they 97 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: had started with just light trainer airplanes, little piper cubs 98 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: and things like that. Uh. And then we're put into 99 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: the and PT and these really high horsepower you know, 100 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: the moll uh sophisticated air place of a day very 101 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: quickly because they proved themselves. Um. But the Army Air 102 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: Forces said, well, let's see what else women could do, 103 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: and Jacqueline Cochrane was a big bunch of that. So 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: they One of the big jobs that needed to be 105 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: done was you have to train men to fire weapons 106 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: at moving planes, right, whether it's ground gunners or gunners 107 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: on bombers. Right, if you're on a B seventeen, you've 108 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: got to shoot at the enemy plane out the side 109 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: of out of the side of the your B seventeen. 110 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: You've got to learn how to do that. You can't 111 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: take a nineteen year old boy and expect him to 112 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: figure that out on the job, right. So you take 113 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: women and and have them fly their planes along a route, 114 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: and you have the gunners on the ground, you know, 115 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: firing at the banner and and um. A way to 116 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: a way to think of the tow targets is if 117 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: you've ever been to the beach and you see the 118 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: plane flying down the beach with the banner behind it, 119 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: or to a sporting event or something, and they've got 120 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: their advertisements vote for so and so, eat so and 121 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: those pizza or whatever. It's it's that kind of thing, 122 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: um and uh, except the targets were much longer, um 123 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: and and uh and yeah, they shot with live ammunition. 124 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: Because they've got to figure out how to really use 125 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: the guns. They would often have the ammunition color coded 126 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: so they could figure out which which gunner was shooting 127 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: which which bullets. Um. But this was very mundane flying. 128 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: It was dangerous because you're being shot out. Um. It 129 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: was dangerous because you're flying slowly often times. But it 130 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: was very boring flying. It was it was basically flying 131 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: up and down and you know, up and then turning 132 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: around and flying back down and listening on the radio 133 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: and doing the same thing every day. Um. And and 134 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: you have to be precise and you have to you know, 135 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: do what what has to be done. But it's not 136 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: exotic flying. Um. And so the Air Army Air Forces 137 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,119 Speaker 1: was kind of excited to have women do this job 138 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: because the men hated it because it was so boring, um. 139 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: And the women were tended to be more patient or 140 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: happy to be flying anything. So so that was an 141 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: evolution to expand to that. And then yeah, it expands 142 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: to all these different jobs, test flying claims after they've 143 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 1: been um, you know, worked on or had a little crash, uh, 144 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: flying you know, personnel from place to place, doing all 145 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: these different jobs. And basically this was just an expansion 146 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: of the women to see what they could do, and 147 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: and they took it. We actually have a loss to 148 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: the first American jet. You know, well could she do that? 149 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: She can? We had women flying um remote control aircraft, 150 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, so you know essentially some of the first drones, 151 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: and they were all top secrets flying some of those 152 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: where they be in the remote aircraft with somebody behind 153 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: them and another plane flying that plane. Uh, but that 154 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: they didn't want to plane crash, so if the person 155 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: must up, the women in the drone airplane could could 156 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: take over the controls, you know, so that they're doing 157 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: all these different jobs and really, uh, Jacqueline Cochrane has 158 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: a phrase for it that I just I just love. 159 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: She she said that the wash do all the aerial 160 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: dish washing right, all the aerial dish washing jobs that 161 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: that uh, it's the jobs that nobody wants that everybody 162 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: it has to be done right, the jobs that nobody 163 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: wants to do, but that have to be done, just 164 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: like doing the dishes his home. And you know, of 165 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: course she she domesticates the work that they're doing. I know, 166 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: they're just they're just dishwashing and they're not threatening anybody 167 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: flying these fancy military planes are just just doing the dishwahing, 168 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: the aerial dish washing jobs. And and uh know, it's 169 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: it's interesting the terms that she used to justify the 170 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: work that women were doing. But again, you know, after 171 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: the war, we have all these really extensive reports of 172 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: the jobs that the women did and the the success 173 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: that they had. They did well at all the jobs 174 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: they were asked to do. Uh. The only one that 175 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: was questionable was flying a glider. Right, they had these 176 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: big gliders that they used in World War Two, and 177 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: the aircraft would tow the glider and the women weren't 178 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: quite strong enough for that. So that's the only job 179 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: that they said, well, let's not have them do that. 180 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: But but everything else, these were all jobs that had 181 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: to be done. So you have women who are out 182 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: there and who are doing jobs that if they hadn't 183 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: been doing them, two men would have had to do 184 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: them because they were jobs that had to be done. 185 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: And um, I think part of this is it starts 186 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: with we don't know where the war is going to 187 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen in this war? What jobs 188 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: are women going to have to do? You know? What 189 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: is our our pool of potential pilots here. Uh. And 190 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: then as the war progresses, they wanted to have final 191 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: numbers on these experiments. Basically, and they saw the Cold 192 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: War coming, you know, I was like, well, if we 193 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: have another war, what can women do? So it really uh, 194 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: they had women doing all these jobs because these jobs 195 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: were all there to be done. Um. And they kept 196 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: trying different things. They were giving the women they were 197 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: they were doing a good work. They were flying and 198 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: and uh, their accident rates were comparable with men doing 199 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: the same jobs there. Uh, you know, delivery rates on 200 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: the bearing of the aircraft was in some cases better. 201 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: It just you know, on some basis, the commanders preferred 202 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: to women because they wanted to fly. Uh. So I 203 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: think it's it's interesting how their role expanded. Uh. And 204 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: it's you know, you ask keep in mind that they 205 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: were considered an experiment. Unless you have an experiment to 206 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: try as many things as you can. Man, there was 207 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: so much information in the answer to that question number one. 208 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: I had no idea that ferrying a new plane from 209 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: the factory to an airfield could in some ways be 210 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: a lot more dangerous than towing targets for life. Am 211 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: a practice that still seems completely counterintuitive to me. Even 212 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: having been explained, I understand now rationally why it's so 213 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: much more dangerous, But in my head, it's still way 214 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: more dangerous to be shot at than just to fly 215 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: a plane. Uh. Number two, I had no idea until 216 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: talking to Kate about this that part of the mindset 217 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: behind this whole program was like, what if there's another war? 218 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: What all are we gonna need women to already know 219 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: how to do? And what are we gonna need to 220 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: have demonstrated that that women can handle. That to me 221 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: was bleak and fascinating. Uh. And coming up, Tracy's interview 222 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: with Kate gets into some more specific cases of women 223 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: that were part of this program. But before we do that, 224 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna pause and have a word from one of 225 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: our sponsors. Next up, we're going to talk about one 226 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: WASP in particular. He was one of two Chinese American 227 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: women who served with the Women Air Moorce Service pilots. 228 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: As I started researching the WASP, like, I know that 229 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: the United States military wasn't integrated until which was after 230 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: the Wasp bird disbanded, so I assumed that only white 231 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: women were in the WASP that but then I found 232 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: a photo of Hazel Yan Lee, who was a Chinese 233 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: American woman from Oregon who was actually the last of 234 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: the WASP to be killed in the line of duty. 235 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: So it's clear that number one, it was not exclusively 236 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: white women. Uh. The number two and is this a 237 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: story that you know a lot about Hazel Yang lady? 238 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: Know what can you share with us about her? Well, 239 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: you're quite right that the WASP were we're white. There 240 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: were there were two exceptions, uh, Hazel a Yang Lei uh. 241 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: And then there was another Chinese American woman who's Maggie 242 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: g Uh and she was out of California. She's in 243 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: one of the later classes. Uh. And those were the 244 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: UM only two non white women in the groups. Uh. 245 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: We know that several African American women who were qualified 246 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: did apply to the program UM and they were turned 247 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: down because they they were worried about desegregating the group. UM. 248 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: And that's a long, long conversation they have. UM. But 249 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: but so when you're thinking about Chinese Americans, Hazel especially 250 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: was very highly qualified. She had a pilot's license since 251 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: nineteen She had gone to China when Japan attacked China 252 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: and the nineteen thirties to try to fly for the 253 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: Chinese Air Force UH, and they turned her down because 254 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: she was a woman. So she actually had been flying 255 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: UH for some Chinese airlines, was one of the very 256 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: few Chinese women pilots UH. And then she came back 257 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: and and UH when the WASP program began, I was 258 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: one of the earliest classes and fairy pursuit aircraft. So 259 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: it's important to remember that the United States was allied 260 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: with China, and so having Chinese American women in the 261 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: program was good for appearance's sake to a certain extent. UH. 262 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: And Hazel especially, she was incredibly qualified. UH was all 263 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: of a flight time, so I think that was a 264 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: big part of it. And of course she is Uh. 265 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: She's killed in November of Thanking forty four, quite tragically. 266 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: Where that's one of those things that you know, she's 267 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: in a pursuit aircraft and another pursuit it's coming in. 268 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: They're both landing, the control tower has some confusions and 269 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: the one of the plane's radios wasn't working UH, and 270 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: so the the other pursuit plane landed on top of 271 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: Hazel UH and and she was she was killed. UM. 272 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: But but yeah, there were there were two Chinese women. Uh. 273 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: There's a story associated with Hazel that in one of 274 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: her pursuit trips the plane had had failed and she 275 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: had to stop in a farmer's field. Right, she found 276 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: a place to land when then and clip and landed 277 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: in a farmer's field. And the farmer, when he saw her, 278 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: came after her with a pitchfork because she thought the 279 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: Japanese were landing in his field. Uh. And she, you know, 280 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: had to stand her ground. And you know, as she's 281 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: running in the round the plane avoiding him, she's saying, no, 282 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: I'm an American, and you know, and and finally ordered 283 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: him to put the pitchport down and he did. But 284 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: but uh, that was a story that she loved to tell, 285 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: and she had a great sense of humor. The stories 286 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: go and love love telling that story about the man 287 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: who thought she was Japanese. The last training class for 288 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: the Watts graduated on December seven, and then the program 289 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: itself was disbanded on December the twentie, which was I 290 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: think heartbreaking for a lot of the women who had 291 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: been involved. They were basically all told to go home, 292 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: and a lot of cases told to go home basically 293 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 1: at their own expense. Um. Did any of that last 294 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: lost class get to actually serve in the couple of 295 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: weeks between when they graduated and when the program was disbanded. Yeah. Yeah, 296 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: So as we call that the last the lost last 297 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: class because they they went through training no wing they 298 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: were going to be disbanded. Um. The announcement was made 299 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: in October of n that they would be disbanded, but 300 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: those who were already in training could finish. So the 301 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: tradition was when a class graduated to be given some 302 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: time off to go home or or just rest before 303 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: they started their um their active duty. Uh. And this 304 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: class didn't. They just went straight from graduation to different 305 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: bases across the country. So they had almost three weeks 306 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: of service. It's not going to be the same. And 307 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: as you know somebody who was in the third class. Uh, 308 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: and the women of the last class are very humble 309 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: about the work that they did compared to their sisters 310 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: who had gone before them. Um. I want to take 311 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: on another point that you said that when when they 312 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: were disbanded on December twentieth, the women are all across 313 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: the country on these different basis, hundreds of different basis, 314 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: and the Army Air Forces Half Arnold, the general at 315 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: the time that you know, you can take a military 316 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: plane nearby, right, you can catch your wife basically on 317 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: a military plane if if one's going near your home. 318 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,479 Speaker 1: One wasp actually got a ride home with her fiance, right. 319 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: He was a male pilot on the base, and he 320 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: flew her all the way home and met the family. 321 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: Other wasp, you know, one wasp, Shoy Reynolds. She was 322 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: out in in out West and was assigned to ride 323 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: along with some men and they stopped in Las Vegas 324 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: for fuel, and all of a sudden, the men said 325 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: the planes didn't work and she'd have to find her 326 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: way home to Pennsylvania from there. So she has this 327 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: long story of you know, the coins that she had 328 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: in her pocket and she and another girl, um, you know, 329 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: trying to get home and calling her mother and saying 330 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: send us money, but then catch arrived and missing the 331 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: money and uh, you know, the long, arduous trip home. 332 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: So this was this is one of the biggest problems 333 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: with the WASP program because they were technically civilian, but 334 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: they were living in the army world. If they each 335 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: had a different experience on some basis, the commanders were 336 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: thrilled to have them and treated them like bold and 337 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: on others they just didn't want to have anything to 338 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: do with the women and and we're happy to see 339 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: them go. So it's this very um, very different experiences 340 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: for all these women, everything from when they were killed. 341 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: You know, some of the thirty eight Wasps were killed 342 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: and as some of those women, their bodies were escorted 343 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: at home and uh, they were given us a proper funeral. 344 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: Others the fellow WASP had to pass around the hat 345 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: to help send the body home. It just depended on 346 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: the commander at that particular base. Um. So it was 347 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: really um really give my experiences all the women. So 348 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: Kate just talked about what happened after the women were 349 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: killing in action, as well as what happened after the 350 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: program was disbanded. We didn't really touch in our conversation 351 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: on why the WASP were disbanded there and it's kind 352 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: of an important part of the story. So Holly and 353 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: I are going to hit the highlights. Since its inception, 354 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: the WASP program had operated under the belief that the 355 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: WASP would eventually be militarized. A lot of the women's 356 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: training was patterned off of military training, and the women 357 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: who went through it thought that eventually they'd have military 358 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: status along with the benefits and veteran status it would 359 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: come along with that. Instead, when House of Representatives Bill 360 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: four to one nine was introduced on February seventeenth to 361 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: do exactly that, this subject became extremely contentious. By this point, 362 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: the tide of the war had really turned. Male pilots, 363 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: who previously had just been desperately needed in Europe weren't anymore. 364 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: Air Force training programs had been shuttered, and training programs 365 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: for men had been cut way back. When it came 366 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: to the Air Force cadets, Suddenly it didn't seem like 367 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: women were relieving men for other wartime work. In terms 368 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: of the WASP program, it seemed like women were replacing men. 369 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: The idea of women freeing up men to do more 370 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: dangerous work was not a threatening one, but the idea 371 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: that women were taking men's jobs absolutely was. The media 372 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: and public opinion shifted against the WASP as well. On 373 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: June twenty one, ninety four, House Bill for nineteen was defeated, 374 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: and instead, the announcement that came on August fifth, ninety 375 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: four was that the training class that was currently in 376 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: session would be the last one for the WASP. That 377 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: class graduated on December seven, and the program ended on 378 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: December twenty. And now we are going to take another 379 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: quick break for a sponsor word before we get into 380 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: what happened after the WASP program was disbanded. So now 381 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: we'll get into what happened after the WASP program was 382 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: over and why. The idea of whether they should be 383 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: recognized as military veterans continued to be controversial for decades 384 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: after the end of World War Two. So once the 385 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: program was disbanded, it seems like the WASP were pretty 386 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: quickly forgotten, and forgotten so thoroughly that when the United 387 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: States Air Force announced that it would be training eighteen 388 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: women as pilots in nineteen seventy six, the announcement was 389 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: worded as though this was the first time ever history 390 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: that a woman had flown US military aircraft. What was 391 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: it that led the WOP to return to the public 392 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: eye after having been so thoroughly erased from it? I 393 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: think that's a great question, um, And they I don't 394 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: know if they were erased so much as they were 395 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: just forgotten, Uh, you know, the war ends, and they 396 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: just don't don't talk about their their experiences. You know, 397 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: all these combat pilots are coming home and they actually 398 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: flew combat and someone when they started to tell their 399 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: stories of their flying, were dismissed as oh yeah right. 400 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: You know, people just didn't believe them, so they didn't 401 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: talk about it, and that entire generation tried to move 402 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: on past the war. So skip forward to the nineties sixties, 403 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: and these women are starting to hit retirement. Uh. Those 404 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: who continued to serve in the military, which which some 405 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: of them did, they joined the reserves and they they're 406 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: facing retirement or from the civil service, and their points 407 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: from their time in the WASP aren't counting towards their retirement. 408 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: So you've got that practical reason of hey, we we 409 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: need our time and the wants who have been recognized 410 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: so it can help us with the retirement. Um. But 411 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: then you've got even more importantly, these women are are 412 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: hitting their late forties and their fifties and they're realizing 413 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: that they've been forgotten. And not only have they been forgotten, 414 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: but those thirty eight lost who died have been forgotten. 415 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: And they they just are hitting that point in life 416 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: where you know, their kids are grown and they're starting 417 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: to reflect on their own experiences and and then yeah, 418 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: the military is coming out saying, oh, look at all 419 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: these women for the first time, and they're saying, wait 420 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: a minute, we did this and it was important. Um 421 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: and and so it's it's it's timing as much as 422 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: anything else. But they just didn't want those thirty eight 423 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: who they have lost their lives and nobody remembered them, 424 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: so that was really important to them. President Jimmy Carter 425 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: did finally sign a law that gave the last veteran 426 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: status in ninety seven, and I found that consistently described 427 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: as being over strong objections. What were the objections in 428 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: place there? Well, there was the battle for recognition of 429 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: the nineties seventies was controversial and and some people say 430 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: that Jimmy Carter opposed it. I haven't found hard evidence 431 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: of that, so um, I'm not going to speak to that. 432 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: But there were groups that opposed the women gaining veteran status, 433 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: um who who argued that it would demean the word 434 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: veteran if these women who had served as civilians were 435 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: made veterans, and and uh that that they hadn't been military, 436 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: so they shouldn't be veterans and different things like that. 437 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: UM and a lot of people were worried about how 438 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: expensive it was going to be if you recognize the 439 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: women as veterans. So they were given veterans status, but 440 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: in a in a limited way. They you know, the 441 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: g I Bill was gone by the UM and they 442 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: were just given recognition for purposes of the Vestans administration, 443 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: so it wouldn't be too expensive, uh to take care 444 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: of them. So Holly and I joined this podcast in 445 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: and for the first two years after we did, we 446 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: got constant requests from people to talk about the Soviet 447 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: night bombing regiment that became known as the Night which 448 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: is like, it was the most requested thing we've ever had, 449 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: And once we actually did that episode, nothing else has 450 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: become nearly as as heavily requested. UH. The WASP, on 451 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: the other hand, we've only gotten a few requests to 452 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: talk about, and most of them have been in response 453 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: to recent news about Arlington National Cemetery. Do you have 454 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: any thoughts on why the Night Whiches have become so 455 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: much more fame us in the United States then the Wasps, 456 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: who actually have some pretty similar stories aside from the 457 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: fact that the Wasps were not flying in combat. Well, 458 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: I think the the Soviet women are pretty amazing. Uh. 459 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: You know, they did fly combat. They did fight and die, 460 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: and they did shoot down planes. And I think, um, 461 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: our modern times have women military aviators serving in combat. 462 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: And so maybe that connection between you know, we've got 463 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: women who are in combat, uh, ties directly to those 464 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: Soviet women who did it so long ago and under 465 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: such horrible conditions. And the Wasps were very humble. They 466 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: love these the Soviet women. They're they've had meetings. There 467 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: was a group of worlds who went to Russia, um 468 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: and then in the nine nineties, uh and and just 469 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: admire them so much for the things that they did. 470 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: And again, the Wasps are very humble about their actions 471 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: compared to the actions of the Soviet women. Um. You know, 472 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: why people wouldn't ask for more information about the loss, 473 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, but but you know, I think I 474 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: think people keep forgetting them, you know. And uh, and 475 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: they didn't fly combat, so so I don't I don't know. 476 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: I I can't speculate on why people wouldn't wouldn't ask 477 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: about them, But but you know, we've we've got them 478 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: a lot of publicity they we had the Rose Barraide 479 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: float in I got you know, millions of people I 480 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: saw that, and of course they got the Congressional Gold 481 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: Medal in got a lot of great press coverage from that. So, um, 482 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: maybe maybe people are learning about them or they have 483 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 1: a complicated story, and I think it's been told quite simply, 484 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: quite quite beautifully. But but it really is a little 485 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: more complicated than and it seems on the surface. Um, 486 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. So, as I alluded 487 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: to earlier, most of the requests that we've gotten recently 488 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: have followed headlines about the WASP, whether people who have 489 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: passed away and we serve in the WASP, whether they 490 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: can be buried at Arlington National Cemetery. Can you catch 491 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: us up on on exactly what's going on with that? 492 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: Where that whole debate has come from. Well, the distinction 493 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: about Arlington National Cemetery versus other veteran cemeteries is Arlington 494 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: is run by the Army, where other national other national cemeteries, 495 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: veterans cemeteries are read by the Veterans Administration. So the 496 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: Arlington National Cemetery, the Secretary of the Army has argued 497 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: that well, aren't eligible for Arlington's because the law that 498 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: gave them that veterans steps that recognized them as veterans 499 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: or two said that they were veterans for purposes of 500 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: the Veterans Administration. So this is this is quite the technicality. UM. 501 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: They have been brought in to Arlington. There are wasps 502 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: at Arlington National Cemetery. UH. In two thousand two, the 503 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: cemetery came out and said, not only should they be here, 504 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: but they should get status of honors, you know, they 505 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: should get taps, and they should get a flag, and 506 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,479 Speaker 1: they should you be treated treated in this way. So 507 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: this is a reversal of what's what's been done for 508 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: the last you know, ten years for sure fifteen years. 509 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: But but they've ineligible to be there and they expecting 510 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: to be there for decades now. UM. So you know 511 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: this has caused quite the up for There've been two 512 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: lost uh who were turned down. One whose son fought 513 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: very hard with today who's just lovely and wanted to 514 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: be there so badly, UH, and her son just couldn't fight. 515 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: It was it was too much of a fight. He'd 516 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: tried very hard, UH, and then he lay in harmon 517 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: UH daughters uh and granddaughters have picked up the fight 518 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: for all of the law. Uh and and right now 519 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: there's a bill before Congress, but both the House and 520 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: the Senate to make the US was eligible, you know, 521 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: to to make them able to be in Arlington National 522 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: Cemetery and represented Martha McSally, who was among the first 523 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: female combat pilots in modern times. She is leading that 524 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: charge um to recognize these wass She's taken it very 525 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: personally that these women have been essentially uninvited. We will 526 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: be sure to update listeners when there's news on that. 527 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: As as a last note before we wrap up, I 528 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: met you at the American Historical Association Annual meeting earlier 529 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: this year, and it was on a panel that you 530 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: were on about why historians should write op eds and 531 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: in age the media about history. And a lot of 532 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: what you have to say really parallels a lot of 533 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: what's on Holly's in my mind when we talk about 534 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: things on the show sometimes. So I wondered if you 535 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: could take a minute to just talk about why you 536 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: think it's important for history for historians to talk to 537 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: the public about history. Well, this is something that I'm 538 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: fairly passionate about because I believe that historians know things. 539 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: We know stuff. We spend a lot of our lives, 540 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: all of our professional lives, learning about things and and 541 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: making connections. And if we only talk to each other, 542 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't do a service, uh, to to our country 543 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: or to the world. I think, uh, we can help 544 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: people understand why today is the way it is by 545 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: helping them see those connections to the past and in reality. 546 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: If we don't do it, you know, those of us 547 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: who really know the stuff and and have spent our 548 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: lives uh learning it and and thinking about it than 549 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: other people will uh, and they won't do as good 550 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: a job. You know. There there are a lot of 551 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: very good amateur historians out there, but there are a 552 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: lot of people who who studied history very shallowly and 553 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: and don't have the depth of understanding that that we 554 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: could share. UM. So I just think it's really important 555 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: for for historians to engage with the public and and 556 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: help the public understand because people love history. Right, you 557 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: talk to people, they're like, oh, I hated history in 558 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: high school, but look at your show. I mean, it's 559 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: so popular because people really do love history. They just 560 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 1: don't like the way they've been talked to about history 561 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: in the past, um, and so I think as professional 562 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: historians we need to engage with the public and and 563 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: help them see that they really do love history and 564 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: history really is important to understanding the world around them 565 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: each and every day. So I one agree with Kate's 566 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: statement that a lot of people think they don't like history, 567 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: but they really just don't like the way that history 568 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: has been presented to them. That completely mirrors my experience 569 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: with Kay through twelve. Yeah, We've talked about this a lot, 570 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: but I'll say it again. I think when you're doing 571 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: the here's a date, remember it, here's a date, remember it. 572 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: Even when they get into like the mechanics of what 573 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: caused things, it's usually pretty dry. But if you actually 574 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: dig in and see all of the influences that are 575 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: going into what creates those moments in those dates, then 576 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: it gets a lot juicier and more interesting, and you 577 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: find yourself really engaged. And I wish that there was 578 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: a setup in education that that could happen more regularly well, 579 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: And I also, to be fair, I know there are 580 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: people who do love the names and the dates and 581 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: like the the rote memorization that a lot of it 582 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: is involved with, Like, I know someone who is a forensic, 583 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 1: a countant who loves spreadsheets and numbers in a way 584 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: that I simply do not. But it would be cool 585 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: if history could, you know, school pot through both of 586 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: those approaches for the people who needed to learn them 587 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: in both of those two different ways. Well, And I 588 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,479 Speaker 1: think for the people that do love the memorization part 589 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: and the dates and the names for them. And I'm 590 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: just speaking extemporaneously, so I could be completely off base, 591 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: but I think those people have this innate ability at 592 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: pattern recognition where they're able to kind of pease out 593 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: that juicy cause and effects stuff from looking at all 594 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: of those dates and places and names that is maybe 595 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: not always immediately apparent to other people. And that's part 596 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: of how they get engaged. It's like a puzzle game almost. Yeah, 597 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: I think you and I are maybe more big picture 598 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: recogn machine people and the like extrapolate the big picture 599 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: from a list of names and dates unless it involves 600 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: Star Wars, and then I like all the memorization of 601 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: nates and dates anyway, Yeah, to get back to get 602 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: back to the wasp. Kate also referenced a Rose Parade float. 603 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: This actually happened in twenty fourteen, and the float was 604 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: called Our Eyes Are on the Stars. It won a 605 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: National Trophy award, and it was created to both honor 606 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: and celebrate the WASP and to try to educate people 607 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: about their contributions to World War Two and to women 608 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 1: in aviation and armed forces and their legacy today. So 609 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: it was basically like a work of public history to 610 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: try to honor, honor people, and educate people as well. 611 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: Eight surviving Wasp wrote on the float. Fourteen people walked 612 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: along with it, including many women from the United States 613 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: Armed Forces who had been inspired by the WASP and 614 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: their story. So in our show notes for the episode, 615 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: we will include links to some pictures some more about 616 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: this float. It really is pretty astounding to look at. 617 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: Its beautiful. Also in the show notes is going to 618 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: be a link to the National WASP World War Two 619 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: Museum in Sweetwater, Texas and to the official archive of 620 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: the WASP, which is housed at Texas Women's University. Jacqueline 621 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: Cochrane's name came up a few times in these two 622 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: POT casts, and you can find more about her in 623 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: the episode four Flights of Female Aviators, which we will 624 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: also link to you in our show notes. And I 625 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: want to just thank Kate again so much for agreeing 626 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: to be on the show, for giving us so much 627 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: marvelous information. Uh, there were things that I asked her 628 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: that I sort of already knew the answers too, But 629 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: then there were so many things that her answers included, 630 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: nuances and details that not only had not occurred to me, 631 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: but they had not been present in any of the 632 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: work that I had read and reviewed and watched to 633 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: prepare for this interview. So thank you, Thank you so much. 634 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,479 Speaker 1: It was such a pleasure to talk to you. Kate. 635 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: Do you have some listener mail to finish this one 636 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: out with? I do, and this is from Wendy, and 637 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: Wendy says, I just want to thank you for covering 638 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: the Vanport flood. We bought a house in the Kenton 639 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: neighborhood of Portland, and Vant Vanport would have been our 640 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: neighbor to the north, canon is located in the historic 641 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 1: al Buying a red line. I've obviously heard of the flood, 642 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: however I never can did the dots about the racial 643 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: undertones that led up to it, including the whipping laws 644 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: and black band written into the Oregon Constitution. I've shared 645 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: your podcast with my friends on Facebook and neighbors on 646 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: next door. Many have been surprised and intrigued to learn 647 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: these details about Oregon. As a white resident of historically 648 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: non slave state, I grew up feeling pride about my 649 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: state because we were never a slave state. I'm so 650 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: glad as an adult I have the opportunity to understand 651 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: and learn more about the history of my state. You're 652 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: right when you say it's not just an in the 653 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: South thing. The road into my southern Oregon hometown even 654 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: had a quote street patrolled by vigilantes for justice into 655 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: the early two thousands. Thanks again for opening our eyes 656 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: a little more every week. I love your podcast, Wendy. 657 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: Oh And then, coincidentally, when you talked about having to 658 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: having listened to the podcast while in the yard removing 659 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: river rocks from the dirt, you know, so you can 660 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: still see that this area was once a floodplain before 661 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: they you a walled off the water to let people 662 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: build stuff there. Thank you so much for writing, Wendy. 663 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: I wanted to read this for a couple reasons. One 664 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: is that I am glad that this experience on next 665 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,399 Speaker 1: door posting the podcast was it seems like it came 666 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: off pretty positive. Yeah, I have not had that experience 667 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: in some of my next door conversations about things that 668 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: are related to racism in some way. And the other 669 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 1: thing that I wanted to to that made me want 670 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: to read this letter is that Wendy talks about um 671 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: about having felt pride that Oregon was never a slave state, 672 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: but sort of realizing that a lot of things that 673 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: went on the word in the South. This is something 674 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: that we've been talking about on the podcast lately pretty 675 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: much on purpose, and and we're we have I have 676 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: some upcoming episodes in the and the Pipeline that are 677 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: going to revisit the same territory, because I think the 678 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: the way a lot of people learn about slavery in 679 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: the United States, and a lot of ways that people 680 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 1: learned about the Civil War is really oversimplified. And there's 681 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: a sort of idea that the northern states were the 682 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: good guys because they had stopped allowing slavery and the 683 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: Southern states were the bad guys because they had to 684 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: be forced to stop allowing slavery at gunpoint, basically. But 685 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: that's not that glosses over a lot of Northern history 686 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: and a lot of history from other parts of the 687 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: United States where sure, slavery had been abolished prior to 688 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: the Civil War, but a lot of those places had 689 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: allowed slavery previously, and a lot of them still were 690 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: doing things that were not okay in terms of the 691 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 1: treatment of their own citizens. So, um, that's definitely something 692 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: that we have tried to address on the podcast to 693 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: give people a richer understanding and a more complete understanding 694 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: of like how you you don't get to say that 695 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: the North was blameless just because the North had already 696 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 1: abolished avery before the Civil War started, Like that's pretty 697 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: low bar. Yeah. I think there is sometimes a false 698 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: perception that there was never slavery in the North, and 699 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 1: it's like no, no, no, no, no, no no, uh, 700 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: which gets into some problems and people get kind of 701 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: a little bit twitchy about it, like they feel somehow 702 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: that they're being blamed a little bit. But we're just 703 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: trying to examine all of this because it's only in 704 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: really looking at the facts of how the past unfurled 705 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: that we're really going to have the clear picture. And 706 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: if it's rey to look at, there's probably even more 707 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: reason that we should be taking a gander. I agree 708 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,720 Speaker 1: with you, so uh. Thank you again Kate for talking 709 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: to me on this podcast and for sharing so much wonderful, 710 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: wonderful information, than to Wendy for writing that wonderful email. 711 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us about this 712 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,879 Speaker 1: or any other podcast where history podcasts at how stuff 713 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 1: Works dot com. We're also on Facebook at Facebook dot 714 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: com slash missed in History and on Twitter at miss 715 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: in History or Tom blur is miss in Hisstory dot 716 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: tumbler dot com. We're also on Pinterest at pentriest dot 717 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: com slash missed in History. You come to our parent 718 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: company website, which is how stuff Works dot com. We 719 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: have all kinds of information about aircraft and airplanes and 720 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: military aircraft, all kinds of aviation history, lots of stuff 721 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: at our at our parent company's website. Also at our 722 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,760 Speaker 1: website we will have shown for all of our podcast 723 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: people have lots of cool links to stuff about the 724 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: Washpeat can have more information about about Dr land x 725 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,959 Speaker 1: work lots of cool stuff that we will have linked 726 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: from there. We also have an archive of all on 727 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,399 Speaker 1: our old episodes on our website, so you can learn 728 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff at our parent company's website, which 729 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,399 Speaker 1: is how stuff Works dot com, or our website which 730 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:57,800 Speaker 1: is Missed in History dot com. For more on this 731 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,919 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is how stuff works dot com. 732 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:04,320 Speaker 1: In