1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: I had found happiness and self work, and I was 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: not going to let the outside world take that away 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: from me. I had fought hard for that to start 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 2: loving myself. 7 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My name is Laverne Cox. 8 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: This is part two of my epic conversation with the 9 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: legendary Connie Fleming. If you happen to have missed the 10 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: first part from a couple of days ago, to yourself 11 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: a favor and listen to that one first. You'll want 12 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: to catch. 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: All of it. 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,639 Speaker 1: Honey show notes check them out, and just a quick reminder, 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: the incomparable, inimminable Connie Fleming has been a legend and 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: icon of the New York City night life scene since 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. She has graised the catwalks of Vibian 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: Westwood and Terry Muglaire, among others, and she has set 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: the tone at some of New York City's most exclusive nightclubs. 20 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: It is one of the most famously discerning door persons 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: in nightlife. Her history darling. In fact, she still refers 22 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: to herself as the door bitch. So, picking up where 23 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: we left off, Connie and I are talking about one 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: of the first times we ever crossed paths over twenty 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: five years ago. Please enjoy part two of my conversation 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: with the Legend, the Icon, the one and only Connie Flemming. 27 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: There was this one nighted Hero. 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: Hero Is a party that Eric Conrad at the Maritime Hotel. 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Right, So, one night I was at Hero. I was 30 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: on the dance floor and I was dancing my little 31 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: heart out to Honey was turning us out, and these 32 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: two men, these two white men, come up to me 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: and they said, thank you so much for getting us in, 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: and they slipped me some cash and they were like, 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: thank you so much and that you know wonder and 36 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: am looking at the money. I'm like, they think I'm coming. 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: And I used to get confused for you a lot, 38 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: and we looked nothing alike. 39 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: No, I got confused for you. 40 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: Now every black girl in New York basically I was 41 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: confused for So they gave me this money. And then 42 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: later on the night you're come in from the door, 43 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: and I don't know if you remember this, I came up 44 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: to you and I was like, girl, here. These guys 45 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: thought I was you and they gave me money here 46 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: and you were and you looked at me. You were like, girl, 47 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: you should have kept it. And I was like, I 48 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: kept have. 49 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: And I did. 50 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: That's hard. I kept have the money. 51 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: Oho. 52 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: You remember this story? 53 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: Do you remember that? I remember? I remember, and it's like, 54 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: you keep that money. And I wanted to go and 55 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,399 Speaker 2: find them and push you in front of me, eat 56 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: and say and go and tell them to give you 57 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: the rest of that cash or you won't let them 58 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: in next week. 59 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: That was one of those nights and those moments. I mean, 60 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: your legendary door you call yourself door bitch, legendary door person, 61 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: just infamous. 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 2: As a door person. I am unflinching and I demand 63 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: respect because I remember before I first started. It was 64 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: when I was still modeling and I was backstage and 65 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: it was some sort of group show and the producers 66 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: were backstage arguing because the door person showed up and 67 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: they were like, maybe in DEMI drag and the producer 68 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: was backstage yelling, no fucking drag cleans, now fucking drag 69 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: leans at this door. I don't care. Wow, And that 70 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: when and to the back of my mind cut to 71 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: a couple of years later when Eric was doing poop 72 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: at the supper club and he was like, I need 73 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: a door person. I don't know what to do. He's like, 74 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: you're going to do it, and it's like okay, He's like, 75 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: you know, everybody, we need somebody that knows the core crowd, 76 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: the crowd from Europe. And for the next couple of years, 77 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: I really had to fight as a black trans woman 78 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: to be respected in that field because it's like, you know, 79 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 2: door people have come before me and after me, and 80 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: they aren't sort of given the narrative of being mean 81 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: as I am, and they demand as much respect as 82 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: I do. They are as unflinching and even more unflinching 83 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: than I am. But because I am in the skin 84 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: and who I am, you know that massage. 85 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: Noir andransphobia rears its head. Yeah, all that coming together, 86 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: and it. 87 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: All comes together and it's sort of like, why do 88 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: I have to listen to you? Why do I have 89 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: to be sort of human and nice to you? But 90 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 2: I draw a line in the sand, and that has 91 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: made me sort of this door nazi no club for 92 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: you that was coined that mister black. 93 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: I feel like you've been doing doors for everybody. I 94 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: feel like when mister black happened, that's when like the 95 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: reputation went to this other level of like Connie being. 96 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: Me, mister Blackett was a tiny space and you would 97 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: turn around and would be full, and we could not 98 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: get to the level of disturbing the neighborhood or capacity rules. 99 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 2: So I had to be super like I said no, 100 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: I meant no, don't ask me again, And that's when 101 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 2: it went to the level of like three people just left, Okay, 102 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: we have to wait for twenty people to leave before 103 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: I can start letting in again. The behind the scenes 104 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: logistics of curating a room, which it's on you know, 105 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: a sword's edge. You can let in two people and 106 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: they can destroy the room in seconds. 107 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: When I think back to Limelight, I think you started 108 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: doing VIP sections after Poop that VIP section at Disco 109 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: two thousand Baby Ruby with Danceing and Kenny and so 110 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: there was that club kid room and like everybody can 111 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: get in there, you know, and they needed to have 112 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: a certain certain energy. 113 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: Savoy yeah, to get in. And I think that's also 114 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: my reputation of being at VIP doors and denying people 115 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: that makes you come off as mean. But doing those 116 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: sort of VIP rooms, you get to see in real 117 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: time how it can shift and things can become awful. 118 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: Some people don't know how to act within seconds. Yes, yes, 119 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: and you can have you can have as much money 120 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: in the world, or you can try and shove as 121 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: much cash at me. But no, we have to be 122 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: here next week. We have to deal with the task force. 123 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: We have to deal with because you know, things also 124 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: shifted after Michael Aleck. That's a whole other situation, Michig. 125 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: I was in New York and I just remember night 126 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: life shifting so drastically. It was Juliani becoming mayor, and 127 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: then the Michael Alec when he murdered Angel, and I 128 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: knew Angel. I'm sure you knew Angel. Yes, it's funny. 129 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: When I first moved to New York in ninety three, 130 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 1: Angel was always at Webster Hall makeup room and queen. 131 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: I just moved to the city and people always ask 132 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: me where the drugs were. I've never done a drug 133 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: in my life, but I met Angel and I was like, 134 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: he's he's over there, he's over there, he's got the 135 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: wings on. That's him. People always ask me I think 136 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: because I was in I was sort of ginger, non conforming, 137 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: what hadn't quite evolved into myself yet. But I had 138 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: my look and I would send him to Angel and 139 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: they would, you know, get there. We called it service 140 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: back in the day in the nineties. Oh my god, did. 141 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: You get your services? Girl? Yes, yes, yes, yes, I remember. 142 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: There was a period a party Monster is if you 143 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: care to watch, the documentary is better than the scripted film. 144 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: Looked at the story of Michael Alec and James Saint 145 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: James and that whole period in New York night life 146 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: where Angel was murdered, etc. And then he did when 147 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: Michael came out of prison, he did another documentary. It's 148 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: on Netflix. 149 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: It's hard for me to watch because that's also what 150 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: I wanted to mention was that Nora Burns did a 151 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: play and she says in the play of that, like 152 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: eighties time, we are still in that sort of framework 153 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: of PTSD. It is and you you feel it, but 154 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: now we have a whole other set of traumas. If 155 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 2: you live in Texas or Florida. 156 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is why I'm doing in trauma resilience therapy, Honey. 157 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: I mean the AIDS crisis. I wasn't in New York 158 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: in the eighties, but the whole the nightlife thing and 159 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: the aftermath of what my end. I never I met 160 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: Michael maybe once or twice and Marilla Lyne, like he 161 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: was always just twirling, trashed and a mess, like we 162 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: all just yeah wow. I just remembered like he was 163 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: a mess. 164 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: Try getting paid from him at like five in the morning, girl, 165 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: because you had to chase him around, corral him and 166 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: get him to the office to go, oh, yeah, she 167 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: was working hours. 168 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: And he's high as a kite. Yeah, and like been 169 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: up for days. 170 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and trying to shove a pill in your mouth. 171 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: There were characters, and a lot of people didn't survive either. 172 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: May they all rest in peace, but for those of 173 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 1: us who did, And I always felt like I was 174 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: on the periphery of all that. I was never fully 175 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: in in the club scene like I was in college 176 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: and I was doing I had my waitressing job and 177 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't party like, I didn't do drugs, 178 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: and so I was never like in the in person. 179 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: I never felt like I was like in the click. 180 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: But what was beautiful about being creative and putting a 181 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: look together in the nineties. Is that like you know 182 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: Kenny Kenny, another famous door person would always let me in. 183 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: You know, when you had a look in the nineties, 184 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: you could go anywhere, You could go anywhere, and it 185 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: was deep when that shifted. When that shifted, because I 186 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: never had problems getting into clubs bottle service and bottle 187 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: service shifting and bottle service took over. Everything was when 188 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: oh I can pay for my own fantasy. Yeah, I gagged, 189 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: I really gagged. I was like, wait, hold on, I'm 190 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't even like I was famous or I was 191 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: just used to my energy being welcome. 192 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: You were one of the kids, You were one of 193 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: those one of the driving engines up the sea. 194 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: And what made a certain point value deeply valued as 195 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: a presence in nightlife and then was no longer deeply valued. 196 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. 197 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: Interesting shit. 198 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: Well, I work with Lady Fag at battle Ham and 199 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: she does Spilt Milk and Holy Mountain and she values 200 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: the kids and a look and making that effort. And 201 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: it's that little bastion that is sort of growing now 202 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: and moving into Williamsburg and Queens and all like that. 203 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: So it isn't gone. 204 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: No, you can never kill it. Altogether. It's yeah, it's 205 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: just the nineties clubs were so commercial. I mean, they 206 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: were so huge it couldn't last. But it was wonderful, 207 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: quite a ride, wonderful and we have our sort of 208 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: world now because of it, the strides that we have 209 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: made as a society. You know, their beginnings were there, 210 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: absolutely those interactions of all of these people coming together 211 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: and sort of widening and oh, you are not an ogre. 212 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: You are not going to cut me up and wear 213 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: me like the suit. Yeah. I was at Jackie sixty 214 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: almost every week. I just Johnny Danell saying conne girl, 215 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: the kund of girl, Johnny Daniell on the microphone. The 216 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: Jackie sixty days were so iconic. It was such an 217 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: avant garde kind of party. The shows that were happening. 218 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: I think you were a sugar plump Ferry one year 219 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: on point point shoot, yes. 220 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, show the Jackie Christmas Show. 221 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: I mean the shows that happened to Jackie sixty. Oh 222 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: my god, I wish there was video from. 223 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: That magical magical a magical space. 224 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: This is an on fourteenth Street in like Washington, wagon 225 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: the meatpacking district, and so I think some of the 226 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: sex workers would come in and then some of the trade. 227 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: There was always traded Jackie sixty. 228 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 2: They were always, always, always. 229 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: I remember there was this one boy. I can't tell. 230 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: I can't tell all these boys, but I remember there 231 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: was this one boy. He was fine, and somehow I 232 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: ended up. He and I ended up, you know, okay, 233 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: and I didn't know we had a girlfriend. Then he's 234 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: telling me, as we're getting to know each other, my 235 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: girlfriend's upstairs. So then he became a regular. And one 236 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: night I came because remember Johnny used to do party naked, 237 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: like at the end of the night, girl party naked. 238 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: This man who months earlier was kind of shy and 239 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: came with his girlfriend. He was on stage fully naked, 240 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: party naked and probably high on something, and it was 241 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: just girl Jackie sixty, Jackie sixty. The invitations would always 242 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: be like legends, no, no dress code, but there wild 243 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: always be dress codes every week. 244 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: No runners, no, no track suits, no this It was 245 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: incredible and doing the door there, we got to enforce it. 246 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: I remember one night it was a fetish night and 247 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: these business guys, you know, masters of the universe, came 248 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: and oh wanted to throw around their money and come 249 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: in and we're like no, and they're like why And 250 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: we pointed at the dress code and it was no suits, 251 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: and they're like, well, how do we get in? Take 252 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: it all off? You can go in in your underwear, 253 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: And they did, folded up their suits, left it at 254 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: the door, and they they left after I left. We 255 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: closed maybe around four four thirty. The door closed maybe 256 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: around three thirty. They were still inside. I heard that 257 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: one of them became a human, a human map. 258 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: That was the wonderful thing about the nineties in New 259 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: York that everyone party together. You would have the businessmen 260 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: would come, and the Wall Street and Long Island and 261 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: Staten Island and Jersey. They were all there and we 262 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: were mingling. 263 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. It wasn't segregated. It was a full coming together 264 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: of everyone. Everyone needed to come together. Everyone needed to 265 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: see and look each other in the eye and maybe 266 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: get to tear down all of the the things that 267 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: we were taught, all of the things that were in 268 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: the news, all of the you know, there were so 269 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: many times where people looked at each other and went, oh, 270 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: I understand you, and I understand sort of your journey. 271 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you still feel like that? Isn't that exist? 272 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: In New York somewhere. 273 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: In some spots like at Lebant Lebant, it's everyone. 274 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: I love it. 275 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: We want everyone to respect each other. We say at 276 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: the door, it's going to be this, this set, and 277 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: the other. If you don't like it, bounce. But it's hard. 278 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 2: It's hard now because everybody wants to be in sort 279 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: of their own little bubble, and it's it's not what 280 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 2: nightclubs are. Nightclubs are for you to experience not only 281 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 2: the music, but the atmosphere and the people. 282 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember, it feels like it started with Warhol. 283 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: To me, I think about historically in New York. Warhol 284 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: introduced trans women and drag queens into parties, into his entourage, 285 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: and it seems like he was like, we need to 286 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: have this energy here. And it felt like that stayed 287 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: through the seven these eighties, nineties into the early two thousands, 288 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: and then things kind of started to splinter. But I 289 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: feel like that's when with candy and crisis. Yes, mister 290 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: Warhol saw crisis. 291 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: In Hollywood Lawn, Hotti Woodlawn, and all of those girls. 292 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: But before the sixties there was also Madame Arthur's, which 293 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with. 294 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: Tell Us about Madame Author's. I don't know Madam Author. 295 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: Madame Arthur was Cooxynell, Bamby, April Ashley. This was in Paris. 296 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: I know about the Carousel. Tell me more. 297 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: Yes, I think Madame Arthur's was first, and then Carousel, 298 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: which I'm obsessed with. Yes, because Cooxy Noll and Bamby 299 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: and April actually were the beginnings of that sort of 300 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 2: frontier of transdem. 301 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: The transwoman Showgirl, I mean Coxinell. I think it is 302 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: even before Christine Jorgensen if I recall correct or go contemporary. 303 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: Because I think Jorgensen learned about the operation and everything 304 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: like that from Coxing Now. 305 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: Yes, Coxingel and Bambi all. 306 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: That what I think we forget in this time when 307 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: we had the sort of comfort of the Internet and 308 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: being able to voice on social media. Back then, in 309 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 2: my time, at the beginning of your time in the sixties, seventies, fifties, 310 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 2: there wasn't this. So there had to be a community 311 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: where we as trans people could be safe and get 312 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: employment because there were only two choices, stage or the corner. 313 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: Or if you could live stealth and go in and hide. 314 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: But there was also a price to pay for that too, 315 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 2: because that was also my apprehension when I first started 316 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 2: in Paris, was if I tried to go stealth, there 317 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 2: is so much that is known about me. 318 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: It's going to come about. 319 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: My beginnings in Boybar and in the dry community. I 320 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: can't deny, deny, deny. 321 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it just becomes deeply painful. I interviewed 322 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: Tracy Norman last season for the podcast, and in the 323 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: repeated outings and losing everything and having to start over 324 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: again so intensely painful, and I think it's painful for 325 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: her to this day, the idea of disclosure. 326 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: Because it meant death. Yeah, it meant death. Because even 327 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: Crisis Crisis's parents wanted to commit her. And she would 328 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: talk a little bit about Marcia B. Johnson and about 329 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,239 Speaker 2: how Marcia would be committed and they would give her 330 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: thorizine injections in her spine, okay, and then she would 331 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: come out of Bellevue or wherever they committed her, and 332 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: it would take months for her to come back to 333 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: herself because that was also a thing at that time, 334 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: like you know, they would put you away and heavily 335 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: medicate you into on existence. 336 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: Who was treated as a mental illness, which is so 337 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: disturbing when we're referred to in that way. Now it's 338 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:36,239 Speaker 1: not new, this is now stuff. It's deeply disturbing. This 339 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: is a good time to take a little break. We'll 340 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: be right back though. All right, we're back. Do you 341 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: want to talk about meeting International Crisis in her influence 342 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: on you? She gave you April Ashley's book. Yeah, International 343 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: Crisis we mentioned earlier. Icon she's in the movie Queen 344 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: at very young, very young, sixteen. When I discovered her, 345 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: I was at Duwayne aka Milan. We used to be 346 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: roommates with Perfidia, and I went over to visit Dwayne 347 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: one one day and Fidia was there and there's a 348 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: huge photo of International Crisis on the wall, and I 349 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: was like, who is this? And Perfidia was like, this 350 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: is my mother. It was such a beautiful this is 351 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: my mother International Crisis and started just telling its stories 352 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: and I was just like, I'm still in awe of 353 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: this woman. 354 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: Of her journey because she defied explanation, she defied all 355 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: of the sort of rules for us back then. Yeah. Yeah, 356 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: And the first time we met it was at rehearsal 357 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: at boy Bar and I was like, who is this 358 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: white lady and what does she do here? Who's this 359 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 2: white woman? Then Matthew said, okay, crisis, We're going to 360 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: put in your tape and you can run through. And 361 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: the white lady got up and did this incredible number, 362 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: a season performer, mistress of Ceremonies, beautiful, stunning, and I 363 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: like grabbed Glamor Moores like who is that? And we're 364 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 2: trying not to be rude and let her go through 365 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: her number, and Glamor More is just whispering to me 366 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: Salvador Dali album cover for the OJS or the Ohio Players, 367 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: and just these little tidbits, and I'm like, oh my god, 368 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 2: oh my god, oh my god. And I think she 369 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 2: was also a judge at the first Miss Boy. 370 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: Bar, so she managed to have some sort of mainstream success. 371 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: She was a fanswoman, showgirl and people knew her. There 372 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: was a documentary on YouTube split that sort of talks 373 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: about her a little bit, but I feel like it 374 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: doesn't fully give us the majesty. 375 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, because when it was made, it was right after 376 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 2: she passed, and I think that's maybe early nineties, so 377 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 2: it was still that narrative were calling our drag queen. Yeah, 378 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: a poor, deluded, whatever it was, but there are little 379 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 2: tidbits of her life and the beauty of her journey. 380 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: And even the filmmaker because it was reissued and we 381 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 2: had like a talk after the viewing of the film, 382 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: and the filmmaker is like, you know, even eye cringe 383 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: at the language because we did not have the language 384 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: back then to fully color her in all her glory 385 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 2: and all her facets. 386 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: And this is the thing about like someone like her 387 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: and like so many of our transcestors who there wasn't 388 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: really even fully language. But we found a way to 389 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: be ourselves. Yes, in spite of it, we found a 390 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: way out of no way. Really, there was no blueprint. Really, 391 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,239 Speaker 1: I mean there were you know the girls who had 392 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: come before us. 393 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: Yes, just as you with me were too funky. That 394 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 2: was me with Tracy Africa. Oh my god, obsessed because 395 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 2: at the beginning, it's like in those days when you 396 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: would be sitting at someone's knee and asking them questions 397 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 2: in that time, it would lead to somebody that was 398 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: sick or dying or had already died in some kind 399 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: of horrifying way. So you had to ask for a 400 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 2: little tidbit you saw on their faces and in their 401 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,239 Speaker 2: demeanor that if you would go one more question, it 402 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 2: would fall into despair. And we couldn't push each other 403 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: in that way. We were pushing each other with culture 404 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 2: because tomorrow wasn't promised. Yeah, so you had to give grace. 405 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: You're alluding to it, and it keeps coming up. So 406 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: this is, you know, mid eighties, when boy Bar started 407 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five, it is the height of Whenever 408 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,479 Speaker 1: I talked to people who were in New York at 409 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: that time, people were dropping dead all around them. And 410 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: a dear friend of mine who was in the sixties 411 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: and he watched an episode of Pose and he survived 412 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: that period. He's seen he christ like, I hadn't processed 413 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: all the trauma of that time and this was like 414 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: just a few years ago. How the survival piece of 415 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: like am I next? How to survive this? And it's 416 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: just I'm so happy you're still here. I'm so happy 417 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: that we get to tell your story, and that you 418 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: get to tell your story in this context and others 419 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: on your terms where we have language. I was, I'm 420 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: talking to some queens. I was at a party in 421 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: la It was Edward Enfall's book party actually, and there 422 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: was some queens from RuPaul's Drag Race. I was telling 423 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: them about a night, but I had a hero. It's like, oh, honey, 424 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: de Jon was djaying and Connie was the door the door, 425 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: and they were like what what they and they knew 426 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: and these are twenty somethings drag race girls. Why who knew? 427 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: Who understand? They wanted the stories and they want to know, 428 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: and it's great that you're here to tell them. Oh, Connie. 429 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: Vivian Westwood. Muclair and Westwood were two designers that you 430 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: worked with around that same time, and both pass last year. 431 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: I know, devastated, my two champions were gone. 432 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: I remember reading about Van Laire that in the eighties, 433 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: because he was incorporating culture and leather that a lot 434 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: of people thought, even though he's the clothes sold really 435 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: well and the women loved the clothes, a lot of 436 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: people thought it was vulgar or too gay, or too 437 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: you know all that, and so it really is a 438 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: beautiful testament that you made it to couture. 439 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 2: And uplifted these kind of non issues of fabric, fabric 440 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: being considered and put into the world of fetishism and 441 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: sex and naughty and dangerous. He showed it to you 442 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: in a way that was so beautiful that you had 443 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: to take it out of that. And we were also 444 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: happy that he was sort of taken into the cuture 445 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: world and seeing his talent was seen for what it is, 446 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: for his innovation, like Schiaparelli has done, like Chanelle did, 447 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: absolutely Balenciaga did it. It was a wonderful moment and 448 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: I was honored to be there and be part of 449 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: that moment in his life. 450 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: Did you know Andre Leon Tally by the way. 451 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: Not well, but in that show in which show in 452 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: Terry's first couture show, If you look at the video, 453 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 2: you can hear someone screaming Connie, and it's Andre Leon 454 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: Tally screaming my name. He is with Sandra Bernhardt. 455 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: Who also walked for muguare You charity shows. 456 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: Yes, for years, I did not believe that it was 457 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: him and that he knew me. There was an unedited 458 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: version and you can hear him screaming my name, and 459 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: I was just like it carries me. 460 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: Andre was very in tune with what was happening downtown. 461 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: He was in tune with. 462 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: What all of it, Yeah, and was conduit for worlds 463 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: to come together. 464 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I love him yelling your name because he was 465 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: so overjoyed. Obviously he couldn't contain himself. He was so 466 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: overjoyed to see you at Paris Couture. It's just to 467 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: Lousey's icons. And we lost to Miyaki last year. It 468 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: last year was a yes major. I mean, what are 469 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: your memories of working with west Wood? 470 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 2: At the beginning, she would do shows at the Limelight, 471 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: and I remember the first one I got in. I 472 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 2: was able to get in to see the mini Crinolines 473 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: and I think it was Terry Toy's last season and 474 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: I got to see Terry Toy on the runway and 475 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 2: I was just like because I was so overjoyed to 476 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: see her. And we got to go to London. This 477 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: was just before Vogue broke and they brought us to 478 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: London to like, you know, show this new vague dance voguing, 479 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: and I think we met there and I was just like, oh, 480 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: I love you, bah wlahah blah blah. Okay. Cut to 481 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: like maybe two years later and I had just done 482 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 2: New Glare and she was doing a show again at 483 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: the Limelight and they called me and I walked into 484 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: the fitting and she was like, Oh, it's so wonderful 485 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: to see you. I'm so glad. It was so beautiful 486 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: to see you on the newclare one way. I wanted 487 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: this so much for you, And that came out of 488 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: her mouth and I had to bite my tongue from 489 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 2: not you know, just breaking down into tears because she 490 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: is she is our community, but just in London, Yeah, 491 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: that community of we are all creative together and we 492 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: have to push it. 493 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: Sounds like what's going on with you is that everyone 494 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: saw it was just clear that you were a model, 495 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: like this girl should be modeling, and it usually is clear. 496 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: It's usually like models are like, they're not like everybody else. 497 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: It's unicornish in a way. 498 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that crisis saw it, that other people saw it, 499 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: and then you got the opportunity. It's really a miracle 500 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: in a way. But it was also just meant to be. 501 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: It was supposed to happen. It was really supposed to happen. 502 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: And so my understanding is that when you went to 503 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: Paris those first several seasons, it was cute and then 504 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: it got not so cute quickly. Do you want to 505 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that there's a litter so 506 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: when I worked a Lucky Chang's DeAndre head stories. DeAndre 507 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: went embellish, but she had a story about a famous 508 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: supermodel who allegedly walked in the dressing room and said, 509 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: why are all these men in this fashion show? We 510 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: won't name this supermodel? Is that true? Did that happen? 511 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: It was embellished? Okay, backstage I walk in. Supermodel is 512 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: getting her makeup done and she turns to her makeup 513 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 2: artist and said, don't make me look like a drag queen. 514 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: And I whispered to my makeup artist, it's a little 515 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 2: too late for that, honey. And that started the Because 516 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: you know, it was fine and dandy when I wasn't 517 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 2: sort of known. The core New York crowd knew of 518 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: my history as a boybark beauty blah blah, but anyone 519 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 2: outside of that, they all thought I was like a 520 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 2: New African girl. And they would always be like, you know, oh, 521 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 2: stay over here, don't go over there with. 522 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: Them, don't go over there, meaning don't go to Europe, 523 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: don't go to. 524 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:01,959 Speaker 2: No, don't go and make yourself available to sort of 525 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 2: the top girls, because they kind of knew it would 526 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: make me visible in a way because some people didn't 527 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: know at the beginning, and then it started to be known. 528 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: But it was only one of the supermodels that was 529 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: not very happy with me, but the others touted me, 530 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: wanted me to work with them. You know. That was half, 531 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: and then the other half were like, oh no, I 532 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 2: don't want to. I don't want to be seen with them. 533 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: They are lowering us as women, blah blah blah, this, 534 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 2: that and the other. Because there's always been this narrative 535 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 2: in modeling too tall, too pretty, you know that old choke, 536 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 2: look for an Adam's apple. And you also have to 537 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 2: think of the sort of misogynist narrative in this field. 538 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 2: Women make more money than men, they have more power 539 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: than men. They can sort of wield their power, and 540 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,959 Speaker 2: you have to pit them against each other, make them 541 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 2: into monsters. It's like Beyonce is a witch. Too successful, 542 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: too pretty, It can't be just talent. 543 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: I mean, Tyra has talked very openly about how she 544 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: was pit against Naomi, and they did that famous interview 545 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: on The Tyra Show when they sort of talked about 546 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: it and yeah, sort of hashed it out. So that 547 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: is certainly a real thing, especially with the black models 548 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 1: when you finally left Paris. Did you ever have an agency? Yes, 549 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: you did have an agent. So when you stopped going 550 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,919 Speaker 1: to Paris and modeling, what was going on? 551 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 2: The pendulum of drag and fashion had swung the other way, 552 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 2: and from me always insisting about my transit, I was 553 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 2: labeled difficult and there were the things about, oh, I'm 554 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 2: not going to do the show if a man is 555 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: in the show. Once a pendulum swung, everyone was free 556 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 2: to come out of the fever dream and to go 557 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: back to business as usual. 558 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: And major models are saying this. Yes, and it was 559 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: a thing too. I remember some models talked about back 560 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: in the day that brands would feel like there would 561 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: be a liability, like a legal liability having a trans model, 562 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: which doesn't make any sense to me, but that's what. 563 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: Did you ever hear anything like that? 564 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, when I would go for Go sees here 565 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 2: in New York. Well, we don't want our customers to 566 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: think that we are trying to fool them. We don't 567 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 2: want our customers to think that they are somehow a 568 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 2: reflection of who and what you are. Oh, we don't 569 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 2: want to be seen as being divisive, because back then 570 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: it was being fetishized, being criminal, being unhealthy, and mentally ill. 571 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: How did that make you feel when you would get 572 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: this feedback? You know, I'm an actress, and so I've 573 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: heard all kinds of things, and it was like I 574 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: just kept pushing, But it was also like, will this 575 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: ever happen for me? 576 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? I had my childhood, my childhood of coming through 577 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: the fire and just getting up, dusting yourself off and 578 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: picking your chin up and walking ahead. Because I had 579 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 2: come to a space where I had found happiness and 580 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 2: self worth and I was not going to let the 581 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,800 Speaker 2: outside world take that away from me. I had fought 582 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: hard for that to start loving myself, be okay with 583 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 2: who and what I am, and why am I going 584 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 2: to let you take that away from me? 585 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: Amen? 586 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 2: And Also I was always in a place in the 587 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 2: business where I got to see outside of myself and 588 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 2: the inner workings because I was sort of not really 589 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 2: paid attention to in certain ways and sort of forgotten. 590 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 2: So I got to see certain things. I got to 591 00:38:55,239 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 2: see trans girls who were stealthed and being discovered and 592 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 2: their careers being taken away from them. I had friendships 593 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 2: from nightclubs with hairdressers and bookers and agencies, they sort 594 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 2: of didn't have to maybe coddle me as much, and 595 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 2: they told me the real low down of they're not 596 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 2: going to book you because they're afraid of this, that, 597 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 2: and the other. So I was thankful, and at the 598 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 2: end it was sort of outing me for anybody who 599 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 2: did not know. The press would be like, oh, you 600 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 2: like her, you think she looks cute and that red 601 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: cowboy outfit, or like at the Vivian show and all 602 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 2: like that, Oh you like her, because I remember it 603 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: was that red cowboy outfit and there was this famous 604 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: French boxer and they were interviewing him and asking him 605 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 2: what he liked and he's like, oh, that black girl 606 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 2: in the red cowboy often, oh you thought she was pretty, 607 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 2: goading him, making him say how attractive and wonderful he 608 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 2: thought I was, and then lowering the boom wow and saying, oh, well, 609 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 2: you know that's a man, and then him having to 610 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,919 Speaker 2: espouse violence and if I'd ever see that, and oh 611 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 2: they should all be killed to pull himself up out 612 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 2: of out of complimenting and liking what he saw. So 613 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 2: it was those sort of things that you see the 614 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 2: writing on the wall, like you know, Malamar Swan. You 615 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 2: see the ice closing in around your ankles, and I 616 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: had to say, okay, I will step away before I 617 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 2: am forced to. 618 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to take a teen s break here. 619 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. We're back. You had illustration, you 620 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,760 Speaker 1: became a runway coach. You were always doing the door somewhere. 621 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: So you've done so many things and continue to do 622 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: so many things for you now at this stage of 623 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: your life, what is bringing you the most joy? Where 624 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: can folks find you beyond lebal and like, what are 625 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: you working on now? What's going on in the world 626 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: of kind of growth limming? 627 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 2: I am working on some art on another shell. I 628 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 2: had my first show, solo show at another part the 629 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 2: Wonderful Gallery in Montreal. Art has always been part expression 630 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 2: and part therapy for me, and I started to draw 631 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 2: and started to post them on my Instagram and on 632 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 2: my Facebook and people are like, wait a minute, you 633 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,839 Speaker 2: can draw or you can do this? Who wha wha 634 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 2: wha wha wha what. And by the end of it, 635 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 2: because I did it every day, Michael has said, you 636 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 2: have a show. And I had my first show in 637 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 2: Montreal last year. That show came here to the wonderful 638 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 2: Lower east Side Girls Club, which I work with now. 639 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 2: I want to teach them a little runway class so 640 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 2: that they have stature and their confidence and their beauty 641 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 2: comes through, and working at La BA and going to 642 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 2: delve into writing a memoir and seeing how that goes. 643 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: Just the stories that I didn't know that you've shared 644 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: today are just so so iconic. And if you name names, 645 00:42:59,200 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: ain't the focals? 646 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: Never? 647 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: Are you in love? Are you dating? What's the way? 648 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 2: I am trying to but I'm too old to take 649 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 2: the mess. I'm too old to like, run through your 650 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,919 Speaker 2: field to get to mine, mow your lawn, tend your 651 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 2: grass and come to me. The grass is cute over here. 652 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: Has there been a great love? Has there been like 653 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: a you know, as you travel the world, a great 654 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: love affair? 655 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 2: The first was Joe Dietrich. He was an iconic model 656 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 2: in the eighties late eighties, and we fell in love 657 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 2: and I have to thank him every day. He treated 658 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:54,280 Speaker 2: me like a princess. I was never below him, second 659 00:43:54,320 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 2: class citizen. He never treated me in any way disrespectfully. 660 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 2: He passed away from AIDS around I think it was 661 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 2: maybe ninety three, and it crushed me. 662 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: How did he identify? 663 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 2: I think he would be pan sexual. He would identify 664 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 2: as pan sexual the first verse. First first time I 665 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 2: went to Paris was with him. That was my first love. 666 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 2: And there have been loves here and there. 667 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: Connie, I'm so, I'm really honored to speak with you. 668 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,439 Speaker 1: Just the legacy, the legacy that you had. 669 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 2: Oh. 670 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to end this, but end every podcast 671 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 1: with the question that comes from my therapy. The question 672 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: is what else is true? And that basically when things 673 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: are hard, when things are really difficult, we can focus 674 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: our energy on those difficult things, or there's something always 675 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: else is also true that can get us through. So 676 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 1: for you to date, Connie Fleming, what else is true? 677 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 2: What else is true is laughter, not taking yourself too seriously. 678 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 2: My mom has taught me that to not take yourself 679 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 2: too seriously and to allow yourself to step out. Look 680 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 2: at the situation and have a chuckle about it. Yeah, 681 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 2: look at it and see the humor in it, See 682 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 2: my humanity in it, See that I can somehow get 683 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:33,879 Speaker 2: through this. 684 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: It's the lemonade. It's taking limits and making lemonade. When 685 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: you were talking about boy Bar earlier, it was like 686 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: this creating your own reality. And it's not a delusional thing. 687 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 1: It's a way to it's a way to survive. Yes, 688 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: this alternate space that we can exist in, and that 689 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: that was definitely what else is true. 690 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,720 Speaker 2: It was a place to connect, It was a place 691 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 2: to meet fellow artists. It was a place too. You 692 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,919 Speaker 2: can do this, I can do that. Let us come 693 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 2: together and make something beautiful and a lot of that 694 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,320 Speaker 2: stuff we are living on now. 695 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And it's beautiful that I get to live 696 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,919 Speaker 1: the life that I'm living now, and that I get 697 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: to celebrate you and the life that you are living 698 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: and have lived, and what you've paved for us. You 699 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: were just living your life, but you've paved a way. 700 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: I hope you know from me to you how much 701 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: you mean to us, how much your life your work 702 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 1: means to us, To me personally. 703 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 2: I see it in you and your strides. You know 704 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,879 Speaker 2: when I fell and was like bruised and bumped, it 705 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 2: was for a reason, was for you to be here. 706 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 2: And I am so thankful, so overjoyed to see the 707 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:17,800 Speaker 2: girls now, you and honey, and I mean, the language 708 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 2: that you have brought into the world is so important 709 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 2: and so vital and I thank you from the bottom 710 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,319 Speaker 2: of my heart. You have gone out and fought the 711 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 2: good fight and made the world a better place in 712 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 2: so many ways and so many avenues that we can 713 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,840 Speaker 2: now express ourselves. 714 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 715 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 2: And you are spreading your wings so wide that they 716 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 2: are frightened. 717 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,800 Speaker 1: Oh yes, oh yeah, they. 718 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 2: Are deathly frightened. They are so afraid of their world crumbling, 719 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 2: and they are not able to hide their sins behind us. 720 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we can't be the scapegoats anymore. No, it's you, 721 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: it's not me exactly. This is all your stuff and 722 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: I will I refuse to take it on o tiviously. 723 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,880 Speaker 1: The rong said, they hide us the way they hide 724 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: me away because I get too many dicks hard. 725 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you. 726 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: That story you were telling about the guy looking at 727 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: you and the cowboy look. 728 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 2: It's like sorry, han, but it's that's within you. Yes, 729 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 2: you have to go and work that out for yourself, 730 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 2: and you are not a bad person because of it. 731 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Connie for joining me today. 732 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 2: Thank you, Connie Fleming. 733 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,760 Speaker 1: Oh, an icon a legend for me and for Minnie, 734 00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:01,000 Speaker 1: and I hope that hearing a bit about her life. 735 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 1: And there's so much more that you understand that we've 736 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: always been here as trans people, and we have had 737 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,880 Speaker 1: to fight and deal with so much to be ourselves, 738 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: and we have come through, with so many of us 739 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: with elegance and grace and with wisdom and beauty, intact 740 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 1: souls intact, when we could be tattered and torn nineteen 741 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: ninety New York. I got a taste of it, just 742 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,400 Speaker 1: a teeny tiny taste of it, and it was a 743 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:42,279 Speaker 1: scary place. And I can't even imagine trying to find 744 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: a way to transition and be yourself as a black 745 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:50,720 Speaker 1: trans woman during that time. And that is the biggest 746 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: inspiration I think, even beyond all of our artistic achievements, 747 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 1: that she could be broken and battered, but she is 748 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: all and actualized and at peace and stunningly beautiful. Trans 749 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,520 Speaker 1: is so beautiful. Connie is so beautiful. She is living history, 750 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful that I got to spend this 751 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:24,239 Speaker 1: time with her. Thank you so much for listening to 752 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,479 Speaker 1: the Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe, and share 753 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, 754 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: and TikTok at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox. 755 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,399 Speaker 1: For real, and please check out the show notes. There 756 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 1: are links to things that you must experience that we've 757 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: referenced in this podcast. Go crazy in the show notes. 758 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: Until next time, stay in the Live. The Laverne Cox 759 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,759 Speaker 1: Show is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. 760 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 761 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,360 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.