1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: From UFOs two, ghosts and government cover ups. History is 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: writtled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Dear 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: Ben and Matt, I don't think you guys have covered this, 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: but I think it is a pretty interesting topic. As 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: a slave to the pharmaceutical industry, I think the big 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: pharmacy is holding back cures for diseases. Since everyone worships 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: the almighty dollar, I feel that it's much more profitable 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: to keep billing people for treatment rather than finding a 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: cure for said disease. I would love to see here 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: you guys cover this topic. Sean oh And, ladies and gentlemen, 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. I'm here, I'm Bennel, You're here, 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: I'm here, and most importantly, you are here, Shawn. Ladies 14 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, everybody h in the US, across the world. 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: We're coming semi live to your ear holes. Ear holes, yeah, 16 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: to your ear jums maybe uh. And that makes this 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Today, we're tackling 18 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: something that was inspired by a listener mail and that 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: we have talked about extensively off air before. Just in 20 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: our conversations when we hang out after work, right, so 21 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about big pharma conspiracies. A little bit of background. 22 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: We did a video series on this way way back, 23 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: and then we also did I don't know why I 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: did a goat noise there. No, it was good, it 25 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: was appropriate. Does it work? Okay, we'll keep it, uh. 26 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: And then we also did in January an episode about 27 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: the legal drug trade, which will be pharmaceuticals. This episode 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: we are going to focus on more of the conspiracies 29 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: and the conspiracy theories surrounding big pharma. So first things first, well, 30 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: we'll look at it this way. As we said before, 31 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: legal drugs are a big business. We'd like to give 32 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: you some industry statistics. So I m S Health reports 33 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: that overall drug spending weighed in at about three and 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: twenty billion dollars in UM. Through the f d A 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: and Congress, the US works to ensure access to safe, 36 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: effective drugs. At least that's the idea um so, but 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: at the same time, critics say that quote unquote, big 38 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: pharma has paid Congress to turn a blind eye to 39 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: predatory and shady dishonest practices like price gouging. So what 40 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: is again the big air quote endquote, big pharma exactly right, Um, 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: other than just a convenient catchphrase, right, So, nowadays big 42 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: farma has become this umbrella term for the world's larger 43 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: multinational pharmaceutical companies. These are the corporate goliaths, the corporate 44 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: behemoths that own patents on life saving name brand proprietary drugs, 45 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: and they work to prevent generic knockoffs from replacing these 46 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: different markets. So in nineteen from nine to two thousand twelve, 47 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical industry spent around two point six billion dollars 48 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: just to lobby lawmakers, legislators, and for for some perspective, 49 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: if you haven't read that number against other things, that 50 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: means that they spent more than the defense and aerospace sectors. Yeah. 51 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I always have a 52 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: hard time imagining what day to day lobbying actually looks like. 53 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: Can you film me in and the listeners just a 54 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: little bit about specifically what a pharmaceutical lobbyist might do. Yeah, well, 55 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: that's a great question. We should mention a shout out 56 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: to our own Matt the Madman, Frederick, who is what 57 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: is it? Who is with us? In spirit? On his 58 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: vacation because I'm about to talk about one of Matt's 59 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: favorite shows. Long time listeners, you've heard this before. There 60 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: was a show called K Street. I believe it was 61 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: right definitely mentioned that one. Yeah, and this gives a 62 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: not completely accurate, but pretty close to the bone look 63 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: at how lobbying works. Lobbying is a legal activity in 64 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: the US. Technically or theoretically, listeners knowl all of us 65 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: could get together and we could start you know, the 66 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: American Association for stuff they don't want you to know 67 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: being known or something like that, Right, and we could go, Uh, 68 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: we could do the following things. Uh, take take lawmakers 69 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: out to lunches or two gala's two benefits on trips 70 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: to persuade them that the case we are making is 71 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: the best case for the US in some way. Right. Uh. 72 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: And in every industry does this to some degree in 73 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: there and and countries do it as well. Uh. There 74 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: are for example, like the n r A, you know, 75 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: gun lobbyists short, yeah, or oil lobbying groups or the 76 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: a r P uh the Association Retired Persons. Uh. And 77 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: this this two point six billion dollars is a huge 78 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,559 Speaker 1: slice of pie. Uh. There's a huge slice of llegal 79 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: drug pie. And this is not counting the money that 80 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: drugmakers spend to influence doctors. And again, since lobbying is 81 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: not illegal, there's nothing inherently criminal about these actions. It 82 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: gets sticky pretty quickly because legally speaking, a lobbyist can't 83 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: just go up to uh, Representative Jane Nuion of you know, 84 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: South Wisconsin or something and say, Jane, here's eight hundred 85 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, please vote, uh, please vote against f DA 86 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: regulation of this thing or something that that is. Legally 87 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: can't just give people money and tell them to do that. 88 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: But I have said lobbies is like, hey, Jane, you 89 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: want me to take you out to a nice, nice lunch. 90 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: We'll have some chats over some martinis. Yeah, let's talk 91 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: about campaign contributions. Campaign contributions are one of the ways 92 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: that money can be donated. Right. So, if there is 93 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: a real big pharma, if we want to get past 94 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: the umbrella term and talk about what this actually is, 95 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: then it's most likely an association called the Pharmaceutical Research 96 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: and Manufacturers of America. Right. So, this is basically a 97 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: trade group that represents forty eight of the leading biopharmaceutical 98 00:06:53,480 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: researchers and biotechnology companies. Um. Possibly the most notable victory 99 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: of pharma was the two thousand six Prescription Deal, which 100 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: extended prescription coverage while actually preventing the Medicare program from 101 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: collectively bargaining for lower prices. Right, and this stuff. This 102 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: stuff changed in the wake of the Affordable Care Act, 103 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: which for people outside of the US might sound kind 104 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: of arcane, but everyone in the US is familiar with it. 105 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: It's also been called Obamacare. It's a Romney mitt Romney 106 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: helmed program in Massachusetts that was later taken to a 107 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: national level by the Obama administration, and it has a 108 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: wealth of critics and a wealth of supporters. I think 109 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: it's a story for different show. But the pharmaceutical industry 110 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: definitely had input on this, you know. And you can 111 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: see articles from the Wall Street Journal saying that the 112 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical companies made a benefit of like thirty five billion 113 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: dollars some other astronomical number from the a c A 114 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: or Obamacare. There there. There is something that we have 115 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: to say at the top, though, because we're gonna talk 116 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: about a lot of murky, just diabolical stuff here. So 117 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: first I want to say there's no question that research 118 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: by scientists at pharmaceutical companies has led to amazing breakthroughs 119 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: curing or most often treating conditions that a hundred or 120 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: maybe even ten years ago would have been a death sentence. 121 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: So let's get that out of the way first. We're 122 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: talking about better treatments for cancer, better treatments for sexual diseases, 123 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: not necessarily cures, but treatments. And one of the things 124 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: that inspired you and I to look at this today 125 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: was Shawn's letter and other comments from people on YouTube, Twitter, 126 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: and Facebook. I'll go ahead and put the plug in here. 127 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: Now you can follow us. We are conspiracy stuff on 128 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: all of those and you'll you'll see episodes that may 129 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: not make it to the air for one reason or 130 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: another or topics so we talked about. You can also 131 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: talk with other listeners and you can suggest stuff to 132 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: us directly. Anyhow, one of the things that inspired us 133 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: to look at this was the recent news report, which 134 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: I guess we should mention, but we'll get into later. 135 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: Rite the case of the pharmaceutical startup tycoon. Yeah, the 136 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: farmer bro is that what they're calling him on Twitter? 137 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: Oh man? Uh Martin SCRELLI yeah, and uh I heard 138 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: you off air jokingly refer to him as Shrek. Well, 139 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: you know, he's a bit of an ogre oh Man 140 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: Scado indeed. All right, So there are critics of big pharma, 141 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: and they often fall into one of several camps. First, 142 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: there are the people that, if we're going to make 143 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: up a name for him, I would call them suppression adherents. 144 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: These are the people who believe that pharmaceutical companies have 145 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: something like secret treatments or even a secret or for 146 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: everything from cancer to lekemia, HIV other chronic terminal conditions, 147 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: but have covered up this knowledge in the interest of 148 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: continuing to make money off halfless consumers. When I was 149 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: reading Shawn's letter at the top of the podcast, um, 150 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, he obviously mentioned this idea of you know, 151 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: drug companies having these secret cures and holding them back, 152 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: um because it benefits them more to be able to 153 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: continue to treat these existing diseases rather than to cure them. 154 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: And it occurred to me that there's an interesting parallel 155 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: between that and the idea that, like technology companies already 156 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: have a million terabyte hard drive that they have developed 157 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: that they're just you know, sitting on because why roll 158 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: that out when they can just keep selling us one 159 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: terabyte hard drive for you know, two hundred bucks or 160 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: something like that, right yeah, Or this also maybe ties 161 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: into alternative energy ideas absolutely, the concept that there is 162 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,599 Speaker 1: a water powered car, or there is a even consumer 163 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: products like a toothpaste will only have to apply once, 164 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: or something serious like Willy Wonka stuff, right, yes, uh when, 165 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: and I will I will add that this is just 166 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: my opinion, but I feel like there's strong circumstantial evidence 167 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: that there is on some level at least classify technology 168 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: several years in advance of what the public has access to, 169 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: especially in the aerospace field, especially in in military applications. 170 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: Now does that go all the way down to drugs? 171 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: Are there miracle cures that only a select few of 172 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: the world's population have access to? We're going to look 173 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: at that in a little more detail. That's one of 174 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: the biggest, most consistent classifications of conspiracy theories we hear 175 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: about big pharma. There is another one. If I was 176 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: going to make up a term for these folks, know, 177 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: I would call them the invention theorists. Taking it a 178 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: step further and arguing that pharmaceutical company are not just 179 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: suppressing cures, but actually inventing new diseases, either by renaming 180 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: them to make them sound more serious, or by creating 181 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: new ones and spreading them through the population. An arguable 182 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: example of this is called restless leg syndrome. Got that 183 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: got restless leg syndrome right now? Yeah, I mean, after 184 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: a couple of drinks, I have a serious case of 185 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: happy fate for sure. Uh. And I'm under the impression 186 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: that I could both whip and I believe that you could. 187 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: I really have faith in your ability. I really feel 188 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 1: like it will be a personal failing on both our 189 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: parts if I ever get to that physician. And let's 190 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: hope there's not a camera around. But this, this idea 191 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: is this idea will be familiar to a lot of 192 00:12:53,960 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: people in the US. We will notice the prevalence of uh, 193 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: prevalence of vaguely named drugs that are meant to treat 194 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: mental or emotional conditions that in the past would not 195 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,239 Speaker 1: have would not have been treated. It might be specific, 196 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: but without going into that yet, we'll just say that 197 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: that's another group. So there are the people who think 198 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: things are being suppressed, cures are being suppressed, and a 199 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: group of people who think either fake diseases or being marketed, 200 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: or real diseases are being spread. And there's another one, 201 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: And Matt, I know you're listening to this man, this 202 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: will be your favorite one. The political theories, the idea 203 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: that big farm has purchased the conscience and the vote 204 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: of allegedly elected representatives, using them to force industry friendly 205 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: laws through at the expense of the American public, in 206 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: other words, putting profits over people. No, well, those are like, 207 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: those are some of the accusations. So let's talk about 208 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: some of the true stories. Right, So, aside from the 209 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: recent news, history is absolutely filled with these kinds of shenanigans. 210 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: Here are some actual examples of illegal, corrupt, and or 211 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: unethical things pharmaceutical companies have done in the past. Oh yeah, 212 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: let me set you up for this. In So, how 213 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: does pharma actually influenced legislation? That's a tough one, but 214 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: the answer to that question lies partially with the American 215 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: Legislative Exchange Council or ALEC a l e C. ALEC 216 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: like Baldwin indeed strong Chin that one. So this secretive 217 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: group basically connects private interests and lawmakers to approve what 218 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: are called model bills. And these model bills reflect the 219 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: desires of the parties involved. Um. Yeah, So defenders of 220 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: ALEC say that it provides a forum for legislative and 221 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: industrial partnership, but critics say that's not so much the case, 222 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: that the public is basically completely cut out of the 223 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: entire process, like a smaller version than of the TPP. 224 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: So there, it's true, these these model bills are not 225 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: necessarily intended and I hope you guys can hear the 226 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: air quotes I'm laying down thick over there, not necessarily intended. Yeah, 227 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: thank you to h to become the verbatim bill, but 228 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: or the verbatim law rather, But several legislatures have introduced 229 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: bills that can be traced directly back to meetings of ALEC. 230 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: But Pharma, and again that's just our shorthand for pharmaceutical 231 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: research and Manufacturers of America does contribute to ALEC, and 232 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: it is and we know this because it is legally 233 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: bound to disclose this spending. ALEC, however, is not bound 234 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: by the same laws. In fact, ALEX membership list is secret, 235 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: and big pharmaceutical associations don't just keep their spending to 236 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: the hallowed hall halls of Congress right now, not at 237 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: all been. Uh. These companies actually interact directly and pretty 238 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: extensively with physicians, um, basically incentivizing them to recommend specific 239 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: brand name drugs. Right. Yeah, It's it's funny. Have you 240 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: ever been in a hospital knoll or in the doctor's 241 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: office when a pharmacy rep comes through with all their 242 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: pens and their mouse pads and yeah, their swag and 243 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: then they look like models or something. They travel around 244 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: convincing various doctors medical professionals that name brand drug X 245 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: is superior and should be prescribed for the following conditions 246 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: aggressively and assertively. So and it goes beyond that too, 247 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: because there's a process used called ghostwriting, and ghostwriting is 248 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: a really weird thing. So these companies would pay a 249 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: doctor and say, hey, let's say you're a doctor. Know 250 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: what kind of doctor are you? I'm a doctor of funk. No, 251 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: I'm kidding, Um, I'm an oncologist. You're an oncologist. So 252 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: they would say, we have this perfect drug coming out 253 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: and it's gonna be it's gonna be coming out in 254 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: the next six months or it's been out for six months, 255 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: and we want to spread the words so Dr Brown, Uh, 256 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: you agree with us? Right, we're at dinner. Now you 257 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: agree with us that this is a superior treatment. Well, 258 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: that depends. Can't I get the Crime Bruley? You can 259 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: have Crime Bruley for here and to go. I'm on board. 260 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: Sign me up. Great, here's the best thing. We want 261 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: you to write a review and we want it to 262 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: go like this, at which point they hand the review 263 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: that they've already written there and they say, we're just 264 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: gonna put Dr Brown according to Dr Brown, lead oncologist 265 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: at ex Hospital. And then this glowing review happens, and 266 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: we've used your name. Nothing weird about that. Yeah, nine 267 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: ten doctors agree crimberly at the restaurant and to go 268 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: is awesome. Visa v This drug is awesome. Right. And 269 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: you know this might sound strange to some of our 270 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: listeners outside of the US, but televised ads for prescription 271 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: drugs are a common thing in US channels, US TV channels, 272 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: and and we commonly bizarre. Yeah, commonly bizarre because legally 273 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff they can't say. How would 274 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: you describe one of those ads? So it's sort of 275 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: like this weird trippy alice in wonderland vibe where there's 276 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: somebody prancing through a meadow, you know, just feeling good, 277 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: just just like colors, lots of pastels. There's butterflies everywhere, 278 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: the sun is shining. There maybe children playing in a playground. 279 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: There's probably instrumental music. You don't really hear the people talking, 280 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: probably like some slow motion reaction shots of happy smiling 281 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: face and laughing. Yes, like vague, vague, vague vague voice 282 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: of or just about just you want to be happy, 283 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: right and you want to feel good about yourself and 284 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: your loved ones, don't you. You want to get the 285 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 1: most out of every day on this planet. And then 286 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: the voiceover was shift right over to the name of 287 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: the drug, which would be like heliometrics, and and they'll 288 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: they'll say, ask your doctor if heliometrics is right for you, 289 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: without really naming a lot of the symptoms till the 290 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: very end where there is tiny, tiny fine print, uh 291 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: something that our lead sponsor, Illumination Global Unlimited, is legally 292 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: required to do them. You know. They they are still around. 293 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: They I I don't know they contact us when they 294 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: want to contact us. They don't even use email, and 295 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: they just slip an envelope under the door. One time 296 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: that was volunteering in a nursing home and they just 297 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: sent one of the residents of the nursing home to 298 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: tell me what our next ad campaign just gonna be 299 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: euspurted anywhere. Uh huh. It turned around and she was gone, yeah, yeah, 300 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: So you know que the smalty ultra music. Ask your 301 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: doctor if heleometrics is right for you. Side effects may 302 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: include drowsy, business, nauseaissition on this chap nation, weird shoe footedness, 303 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: wrong headedness, two knows, one knows, sprop double think, brain fever, 304 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: consumption sold deaf, squamishness, impertinence, in continence, offensive punctuality, offensive punctuation, punctitude, 305 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: bad grammar, n America. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Yeah, 306 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, no that now that I hear it, that 307 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: that's spot on, but it sounds a little silly. Uh, 308 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. We mentioned this, I think in our 309 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: Legal Drugs podcast, But the US accounts for about five 310 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: percent in the world's population and also forty two percent 311 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: of the money spent on prescription drugs. That statistic can 312 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: be a little bit strange because these drugs are often 313 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: much more expensive in the US than they are in 314 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: other countries. And uh, let's talk about let's talk about 315 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: this idea that there was a propagation of disease or 316 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: that these false diseases were created and marketed. Right, tell 317 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: me more. Oh good, I'd love to so Bear everybody's 318 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: familiar with Bear, maybe through aspirin sprint. Yeah, Bear did 319 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: sell HIV tainted medicine. They sold millions of dollars worth 320 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: of an injectable blood clotting medicine called Factor eight concentrate, 321 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: which is intended for hemophiliacs, to Asian, Latin, American, and 322 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: European countries in the mid nineteen eighties. The company stopped 323 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: selling the drug in the US, but continued selling it 324 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: overseas for another year. And so how did this happen? 325 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: How did this become tainted? The medicine in question here 326 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: was made using combined plasma from large numbers of donors 327 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: um so at the time there was absolutely no screening 328 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: test for the AIDS virus, so a tiny number of 329 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 1: donors with AIDS could potentially contaminate a large match. Right, 330 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: and reports say that although the worldwide numbers are difficult 331 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: to calculate, in Hong Kong and Taiwan alone, more than 332 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: one hemophiliacs contracted HIV after using this medicine, most of 333 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: whom have died. But in May of nine five, Dr 334 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: Harry and Meyer Jr. The f d a's blood products official, 335 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: called the companies to a meeting, believing that they had 336 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: broken an agreement to stop selling the old medicine, and 337 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: this according to an article in New York Times. But 338 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: Meyer decided to handle the matter quietly instead of letting 339 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: the public know. Yeah, I wouldn't want anybody to get 340 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: in a panic about a little thing like a lethal disease, 341 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: which at the time AIDS was HIV was so that 342 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: that is a scary, real life situation. There's another book 343 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: that you may enjoy if you haven't read it before, 344 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: I believe, called The River, in which the author detail 345 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: the genesis of AIDS and how it's spread. And they 346 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: alleged that they allege that pharmaceutical companies knowingly sold or 347 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: experimented with tainted batches of product on populations in Sub 348 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: Saharan Africa, which sparked the rise of the HIV epidemic. 349 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: It's it's important to note that that is not consider 350 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: the specific genesis like, it's not universally agreed. People are 351 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: still arguing over how this, how this happened. But you'll 352 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: often hear pharmaceutical companies being being accused of this, not 353 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: not so much through some sort of purposeful thing as 354 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: either trying as either trying to save money or being 355 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, fiscally corrupt or incompetent. How do we know 356 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: that bare new that the HIV was in the medicine 357 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: and yet they continue to sell it. I just don't 358 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: understand how a company of that magnitude A could come 359 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: back from a scandal like this and be good Lord. 360 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: Must they not have had a cracker jack pr team 361 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: that I have never heard of the story prior to 362 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: researching this topic, right, I mean when I think of bear, 363 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: I just think of a little aspirin from a headache, 364 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: you know, That's all I think of. Well, in two 365 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: thousand and six, and it's a great question two thousand 366 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: and six that were documents that were unearthed showing that 367 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: they knew it had the high likelihood of being tainted 368 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: with with aids, they knew they could no longer sell 369 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: it in the US. Uh. The dangers of the drug 370 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: have become well known in the US market, but that 371 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: news was slower to reach other parts of the world. 372 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: And it does from what we see, it does seem 373 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: that FDA regulators did collude to keep the continued sales 374 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: hidden so that this could be solved without alerting Congress, 375 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: the medical community, and the public. And these are acording 376 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: the minutes of a night five meeting between the FDA 377 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,959 Speaker 1: and Bear. Yeah, so I mean to me, this occurs 378 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: to me as being like an example another example of 379 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: two cozy relationships, whether it's between drug companies and the 380 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: FDA regulators they're supposed to oversee them, or for example, 381 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, large banks and the SEC regulators that are supposedly, 382 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, supposed to keep them acting correctly. Um is 383 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: is that it's a similar Yeah, that's a very nice 384 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: parallel because or it's a disturbing parallel, but possibly accurate. 385 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: It's nice because it does show you know, how how 386 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: close an industry and the government institution designed to regulate 387 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: it will happen. Now. I know we have a lot 388 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: of listeners who object to the concept of a large government, 389 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: right of whether federal or whether one world. And I 390 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: completely I completely understand in many cases in case of 391 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: things like the Food and Drug Administration. However, that has 392 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: provided in the past, especially much needed food safety things. 393 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: You know, food safety regulations are an important thing to 394 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: have because if there is not some sort of standard, 395 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: then we could easily end up in a situation like 396 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, which is a very gruesome, gruesome 397 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: story about I was going to say, gross, yeah, gross, 398 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: and grewsome story about the meat packing industry. However, Uh, 399 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: the thing about this regulation, and I agree with that 400 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people object to as well, is the 401 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: concept that if the people who work for the watchmen 402 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: are later being hired to work for the people being 403 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: watched or come from that industry. You know, the argument 404 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: is always that a certain level of expertise and experience 405 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: should be the deciding factor and it and it may 406 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: be true the advocates of this practice argue that you 407 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: need to have industry experts. But then the opponents of 408 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: this practice will say, well, really, what we're doing is 409 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: inventing a revolving door where someone can, as a regulatory power, 410 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,239 Speaker 1: make laws that will benefit them, specifically them later when 411 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: they enter private industry. And I mean, I'm sure there's 412 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: some amount of well, if this person used to work 413 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: for the regulatory body and now they work for us, 414 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: they can probably give us a little bit of the 415 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: scoop on some of the machinations of the regulatory body. Yeah, 416 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: that's a good point. You know, how how far does 417 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: it go? With a little background on Bear just to say, 418 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: you asked specifically about how this occurred, so it wasn't 419 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: reported as widely in US media, but French and Italian 420 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: news media we're reporting a lot of this. In two 421 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, Bear just paid, had paid tens of 422 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: millions of dollars to end this scandal because here's how 423 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: it happened. So two thousand eleven, Bear starts compensating people 424 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: they got AIDS because in the nineteen eighties a thing 425 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: called the Cutter biological unit of Bear ignored a federal 426 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: law against recruiting prisoners, IVY drug users, you know, intravenous 427 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: uh and what they call high risk in terms of 428 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: sexual activity people as donors of the blood that they 429 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: used to make this factor eight uh. And that's the 430 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: clotting product that keeps seem ophiliacs from bleeding out. So 431 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: they're paying uh. They along with three other labs were 432 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: forced to pay tens of millions of euros to people 433 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: who could trace the transmission of HIV to this treatment, 434 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: so UH Bear and the US company Baxter, the two 435 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: main parties to the agreement. A company spokespersons said that, however, 436 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: the company accepts no responsibility in this case and continues 437 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: to insist that has always acted responsibly and ethically. So 438 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: cour seen as something that you can see often occurring 439 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: with companies of this magnitude, where they say, okay, we 440 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: will pay to we will pay to resolve this case. 441 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: We will admit no but no direct faults. We admit 442 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: no direct fault. The estimated number, even though again it's 443 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: difficult to estimate, is about twenty people contracted HIV from this. 444 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: It's insane to me, it is it is insane, and 445 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: it's uh and again, I mean, like I said, what 446 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: what is the most insane to me? As a consumer 447 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: of media and as someone who you know, reads up 448 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: on this kind of stuff. I just had never heard 449 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: of this before, and that this mind blowing to me, 450 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: Like how much money you must a company like this 451 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: have to be able to pretty successfully sweep something like 452 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: this under the rug to the point where you know, 453 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: it's just not like the only image that you associate 454 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: with this company. Well, yeah, again, they stopped selling this 455 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: product in the US, so it was maybe older news 456 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: or it was less likely to directly affect people in 457 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: the US market. So that is a seed of truth 458 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: to these things. When when we hear a lot of 459 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: the when we hear a lot of conspiratorial rumors and stuff, 460 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: the thing to find is whether there is a seed 461 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: of truth, right, whether there is a a shining note 462 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: of veracity in the hay stack of bs that so 463 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: often is the internet. Uh, And that's not my most 464 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: graceful comparison there. But let's go to the idea of 465 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: withholding a cure, because Sean, that's exactly what you asked about. 466 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: At this point, it's hard to find a specific proven 467 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: case of a company completely suppressing a cure. And the 468 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: reason it's hard to find that is that we we 469 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: see instead, we see a lot of people saying, uh, 470 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: that it is more advent tageous to treat the symptoms 471 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: of a disease rather than the cause. In many cases, 472 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: I know this is a sensitive subject for some people, 473 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: but in many cases, the cause of a condition could 474 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: be genetic or lifestyle related for instance, like a poor diet. Yeah, 475 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: like a poor diet could create diabetes or obesity or 476 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: heart conditions. And the best way to combat that is 477 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: not through a magic pill. Uh, it's through get off 478 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: the couch, right, It's through exercise and changing diet, which 479 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: of course no one wants to hear because that is 480 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: not an instantaneous cure. But what we did find that 481 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: I thought might interest you, Sean, is some statements from 482 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: people on Reddit of all places, Uh, if you're familiar 483 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: who we're talking about, the talking about the issues here 484 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: or the concept of a conspiracy, and we found people 485 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: saying at we found people saying that they had had 486 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: experience either with drug creation or product creation or in 487 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: the higher level marketing stuff. The marketing people are saying 488 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: it is so expensive to create a drug and get 489 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: through the FDA hoops that if there were a magical cure, 490 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: people would sell it. They would sell it for a boatload, 491 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: a yacht load of money, one might say. But they 492 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to keep it secret because they would be 493 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: walking away from so much money. And then there was 494 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: a funny part where the person who was a former 495 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: chemists like someone creating these drugs said, maybe chemists is 496 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: not the right word. Researcher. Researcher, sure, because we don't 497 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: know exactly what this person was involved with. But they said, 498 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: they said, here's the thing. It would be very difficult 499 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: for the pharmaceutical companies to pay someone who just govern 500 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: to cure enough to keep its secret. You know, how 501 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: would how would you do that? And this this goes 502 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: into some darker territory when we hear allegations of you know, 503 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: people being disappeared or something like that. But in this case, 504 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: so far, just because of the amount of people that 505 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: would be required to keep this secret, it's we we 506 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: haven't found we haven't found a case yet. I'd love 507 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: to hear more from listeners who believe that there is 508 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: a case. And and I want to say also that 509 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: often you'll hear people saying that an alternative medicine of 510 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: some sort is what's being repressed, right, or that there 511 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: is some maybe natural cure through a plant or through 512 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: a relatively simply made derivation of a plant that pharmaceutical 513 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: companies are instead trying to monetize. And that part, that 514 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: last part is pretty believable because we're seeing that now with. 515 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to claim marijuana is some sort of 516 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: panacea that cures everything. It's certainly kept Taco Bell and business. 517 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: That's that's one magic power has. But but it is 518 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: true that pharmaceutical companies have worked diligently to isolate you know, 519 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: functional chemicals, the the active you know, tetrac cannoboids and stuff, 520 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: the th HC too, make it a pill form instead 521 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: of something that a person would you know, smoke or 522 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: I guess ingest other ways. Yeah, it reminds me of 523 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: something I think I brought up in we were talking 524 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: about monetizing the treatment of drug addiction. I think the 525 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: episode was just on drug addictions that it was, and 526 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: I was talking about how, you know, privatizing privatization of 527 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: methodone clinics for oh yeah, yeah right, and so obviously 528 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,720 Speaker 1: that ties into big pharma. I mean, you know, somebody's 529 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: got to manufacture the methodone or whatever. Sure version of 530 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: that is just being prescribed, you know, for the treatment 531 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: of opiate addiction. UM. There's a lot of articles out 532 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: there about UM. The most recent when I saw was 533 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: on a device. There is a a natural supplement you 534 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: can call it UM. It's a leaf from Thailand originally 535 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 1: believe it's called cretum and it it produces an effect 536 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: very similar to an opiate or like methodone for example, 537 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: but um. And it is legal technically right now in 538 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: the US. But it is clearly, according to a lot 539 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: of the things that I've been reading, very much uh controversial, 540 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: and it's you know, probably not going to be legal 541 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: for long, yeah, more or less. But um it is 542 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: apparently a very good analog to methodone and not nearly 543 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: as uh not doesn't carry nearly as many side effects, 544 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: so so it can be used to treat um people 545 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: have opium addiction absolutely according to all you know, some 546 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 1: of these sources, and we could maybe find a few 547 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: links and first them on social um. But I think 548 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: it's just a good example of like a longstanding natural 549 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: product that has been around. Apparently this that used to 550 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: be so popular um in um in Thailand that they 551 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: had to be banned because it was actually interfering with 552 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: the opium trade because people were it was easier to get, 553 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: people could grow it, you know, it grew naturally even 554 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: and it was actually interfering with the opium trade. So 555 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, and this is you know, decades and decades 556 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: and decades ago. This is a very interesting story when 557 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: I haven't heard and I'd like to follow up on it. So, 558 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that this suppression of a miracle 559 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: drug has never occurred. I'm saying that I've had this point. 560 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: I've had difficulty finding a proven case suppression that later 561 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: came out. One thing that could be similar would be 562 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: not related so much to pharmaceutical companies at the Tuskegee 563 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: experiments where the US government withheld treatment for syphilis. Uh. 564 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: But that again, that would be Uncle Sam. That would 565 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: not necessarily be like a viser or a bear. So 566 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: if you are listening to this show, first, thank you 567 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: so much. And if you have knowledge of something like that, 568 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: if you want to be anonymous, that's fine. We won't 569 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: reveal your identity, but we would love to hear more 570 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: about this suppression of cures. We've looked at the propagation 571 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: of diseases and at least one example that is a 572 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: true story. We have looked at some corruption, which is 573 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 1: numerous examples, and we have looked into the idea of 574 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: suppressing a treatment. There that's such a big term. There 575 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: are a number of ways we can look at it, 576 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: but We want to know what you think, so right 577 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: to us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, or we're 578 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff at both. You can even check out our 579 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: live show that we do once a week ish. Oh, 580 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: which reminds me, Nold, are you gonna do you want 581 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: to be on that? Okay? So yeah, yeah, So in 582 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: the WiFi game, Yeah yeah, we're getting our WiFi game back. 583 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: It's it's it's much better. And speaking of what you think, 584 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: let's pause for a second and do some listener mail. 585 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: All right, So our first letter comes to us from Matt, 586 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: not Matt Frederick, not the not our co host, but 587 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: Matt a listener, and Matt's writing and regarding our episode 588 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: on modern slavery. The statistics on sex trafficking are very problematic, 589 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: and jurisdictions have a political interest in it. I was 590 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: trafficed air quotes can be a get out of jail 591 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: card for prostitute to get arrested. Maggie McNeil has written 592 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: a fairly thorough analysis of how questionable the widely popular 593 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: I sex trafficking statistics actually are, and then that goes 594 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: on to say also there was a distinct attitude that 595 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: no right thinking woman would ever want to do sex 596 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: work on your show, and just isn't true. Again, quite 597 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: a number of women are in the business because they 598 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,919 Speaker 1: choose to, not because of his survival work. First time 599 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: I've seen such an obvious bias on your show. Well, Matt, 600 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: thanks for writing. I noticed that you say distinct attitude, 601 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: most likely because we never directly said that no one 602 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: would ever willingly be involved in sex work. However, I 603 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: do agree that I do agree completely that sex trafficking 604 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: statistics can be very very problematic. Uh. Statistics for forced 605 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: labor in general are very problematic, and I can't remember 606 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: if we address this on air, but I hope we did. 607 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: You have to also question the agendas of widely inflated numbers, 608 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: you know, question the source of where those numbers come from. 609 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: So it is it clearly isn't true that no one 610 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: would ever want to do sex work. But if we 611 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: say quite a number of women are in the business 612 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: because they choose to, quite a number is also a 613 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 1: slippery number in itself, and regardless of the ratio. Uh, 614 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: it is true that now use the same word the 615 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: same phrase, quite a number of people are in sex 616 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: trafficking or forced labor of any sort against their will. 617 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: And with with that being said, I really appreciate this email, Matt, 618 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: because you're you're making an excellent point about how dangerous 619 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: it can be to paint with a broad brush, and 620 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: that's something that I wanted. Uh, I wanted the rest 621 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: of the listeners to hear your take on and thank 622 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: you for the recommendation of Maggie McNeil. For people who 623 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: haven't checked out our Modern Slavery podcast, uh, please do 624 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: you learn some interesting facts and you'll see some as 625 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: Matt has pointed out questionable statistics. One of the interesting 626 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: pieces of trivia is that, according to most estimates we read, 627 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: the vast majority of forced labor or human trafficking forced 628 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: modern slavery is manual labor, so things like brick building, right, 629 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: like construction work, agriculture, rather than the lurid tales that 630 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: seem to get the most popular media attention. So again, 631 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: thanks so much for writing that, and I appreciate your point. 632 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: It was well uh well written, well presented. Again check 633 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: out the book by Maggie McNeil. I guess that's the 634 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: interesting thing about statistics. I mean, this idea of reducing 635 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: a human being to a statistic and they inherently have 636 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: very little context, so it's hard to know the motivation 637 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: specifically behind a statistic. M hm, I yeah, a personal level, 638 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: I'm sure, yeah, I completely agree, And statistics can be 639 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: easily skewed by something as small as the framing of 640 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: a question in a poll. Right. Uh. So, for instance, uh, 641 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: if there if there was something like a pole regarding recess, right, 642 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: and if you if you were trying to get something 643 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: that said, uh, the majority of people agree that children 644 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: should have some sort of recess, right, then or if 645 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,800 Speaker 1: you want you would say, you would say, um, do 646 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: you believe that children should be forced to stay inside 647 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 1: all day during school despite the numerous studies showing that 648 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: sitting constantly has legitimate and long lasting health effects. Then 649 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: of course people will be like, no, I don't want 650 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,959 Speaker 1: children to have a sitting disease. And if you wanted 651 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: more people to say that they disagree with recess, then 652 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: you would say, I do you believe that children should 653 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: be forced outside? Uh? And to stand in the elements 654 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: given given the given the recent statistics on pollution and 655 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: the long lasting detrimental health effects that can occur just 656 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: from being outside for an hour. Oh and by the way, 657 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: we're making this show in a state where recess has 658 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 1: consistently dwindled. I think it's like ten minutes a day now, 659 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: which is just enough time to get kids to run 660 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,399 Speaker 1: outside and then run back in. Did I ever tell 661 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,959 Speaker 1: you that they kicked me out of kindergarten? They kicked 662 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: you out because I don't play? Oh no, come on now, 663 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: all right, So well, let's go to a second piece 664 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: of listener mail. Okay, um, so here is a nice letter. 665 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: I just wanted to write in to let you know 666 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: how much I enjoy the podcast. I've only been listening 667 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: for a couple of months now, but it's one of 668 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 1: the podcasts I listened to that I anticipate the most 669 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,879 Speaker 1: every week, thinking it would be an Alex Jones type 670 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: conspiracy circle old jerk, love that image. I was very 671 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,919 Speaker 1: timid about listening. The level of skepticism you show every week, though, 672 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: is very refreshing when it comes to these topics. I 673 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: am very interested in conspiracy theories as a topic, but 674 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: it is so hard to find level headed conversation about 675 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: it from the outside. I just finished this week's episode 676 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: and thought I chime in with some support. Keep up 677 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: the awesome work and that comes to us from Ryan 678 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 1: and Ryan, thanks so much. We sure appreciate it. We 679 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 1: have uh. We you know, we get a lot of 680 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: email here and this show. You know, you might be 681 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: a regular listener, and you might have friends who say, oh, no, 682 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: will make up a name of a person, Stephen Mecklenburg. Okay, 683 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,280 Speaker 1: And let's say you're Stephen Mecklenburg and you're a regular 684 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: listener in this show. You might have people who going, ah, Steve, 685 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,479 Speaker 1: I can't believe you listen to that tin foil hat 686 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: bologney right, that bologna and uh and malarkey right. And 687 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: if if you have friends who are like that, who 688 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: would be hesitant to check out a show because of 689 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: the topics it addresses, uh, then please let them let 690 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: them know that this this show, we will we will 691 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: ask any question. We'll entertain any question. As a listener 692 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: driven show. We'll ask any question. We'll do our best 693 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: to find the answers. Now. As Matt our listener pointed 694 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,919 Speaker 1: out in our early in the earlier email, we don't 695 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: always get things right. You know, we're we're human. There 696 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: are things that we need to clarify. There are some 697 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: things that we've just gotten wrong. And we rely on 698 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 1: our listeners to help us keep this show as as 699 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,359 Speaker 1: honest as possible. Man. You know from where I said, 700 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: you guys do a fantastic job of keeping Ben Matt 701 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,760 Speaker 1: and you know, to a less you degree myself honest 702 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: about these things that we very much appreciate. That obviously 703 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: well so so we appreciate And I would ask you 704 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: if you have if you have some friends like that 705 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: who um pry themselves on critical thinking, right, but somehow 706 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: make the mistake of throwing everything referred to as a 707 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory into the same large bucket, then uh, let 708 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: them let them know about our show or tell them, Oh, 709 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: I I heard a good one that is not what 710 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: what what's that phrase? A conspiracy circle jerk? Can we 711 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: even say that on the air. There's a there's a 712 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: band called the circle Jerks. Okay, all right, yes, so guys, 713 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: if our boss is asked, that's what we were talking about, 714 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: all right, back us up, uh, and now we are 715 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: going to head out. We would like to hear from you. 716 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,320 Speaker 1: So if you want to take a page from that 717 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,799 Speaker 1: list whoa wait, do you hear that sound cute? Yeah? 718 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: You do, because you're you're playing it Yeah, No, I 719 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: have a thing, Ben, I have a thing. So I 720 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: kind of want to use today's moment to revisit our boys. 721 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: Screlly Martin Screlly, Um, this is a story. It's fascinating 722 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: to me on a couple of levels, but one it 723 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 1: really shows the power of the internet. First in that 724 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: this story kind of came and then was more or 725 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: less resolved in a day's time. I'm using the term 726 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: resolved pretty loosely. But a little backstory, UM, many of you, 727 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure we're following this along with me. Um. Martin 728 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: Screlly is a thirty two I believe thirty two year 729 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: old former hedge fund manager, so just you know, up 730 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: there in the financial world, and was topiary. Yeah, I 731 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: don't know what either one of those. I thought. It's 732 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: like a landscaping thing, manage hedges. Yeah, I have that. 733 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: You know that it might as well be, for all 734 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: I know about what hedge fund actually is. It seems 735 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 1: like to me it's one of those things where you 736 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: only really know what it is, and if that's what 737 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: you do for a living, I'm gonna walk away from 738 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: a terrible landscaping joke. I don't you don't have to 739 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 1: I know, let's go all right, I'll go with you. 740 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: So Martin screlly Um, thirty two year old financial whiz 741 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: I guess you could call him, Uh, used to manage 742 00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: a hedge fund, so left the hedge fund and was 743 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,879 Speaker 1: part of a pharmaceutical company called Retrofin. Is that right back, Yeah, 744 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,799 Speaker 1: Retrofin and Retrofin acquired the rights to sell a drug 745 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: called Fiola. Fiola is used to treat cystinuria. That's a rare, 746 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: incurable condition which gives you persistent kidney stones. That's right. 747 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 1: So that's a that's a pain in the kidney. Right. 748 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: So we're burying the lead here a little bit. But 749 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,839 Speaker 1: the reason we bring that up is this was sort 750 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: of the first example of this guy screlly Um doing 751 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 1: some pretty egregious price gouging. Yeah, he said that Fiolo, 752 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,479 Speaker 1: which sold for four thousand a year per patient, would 753 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,919 Speaker 1: be priced closer to a rival drug called Pencilla meane, 754 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: which sold for eighty thousand, hundred forty thousand a year 755 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 1: per patient. So good little backstory there. But the lead 756 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 1: that we're burying is the news of the day is, Uh, 757 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: Martin screlly has a pharmaceutical startup called Turing Pharmaceuticals UM 758 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: and and just the idea to me when I first 759 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: heard this of a pharmaceutical startup, I mean, I think 760 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 1: of a startup is like building an app, you know, 761 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: like something. I don't really think of it as like 762 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess all companies have to start somewhere, 763 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: But this is the idea of a pharmaceutical startups sort 764 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: of like made me scratch my head a little bit. 765 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 1: But one of the first things he did, um when 766 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: he started this company was purchased the rights to a 767 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,000 Speaker 1: very old drug called dry Prim and uh. Dry prim 768 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:35,479 Speaker 1: has actually been used for years to treat toxoplasmosis, which 769 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:42,359 Speaker 1: is is a pretty common condition, but it's not particularly 770 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,800 Speaker 1: um detrimental to most people who have it, who have regular, 771 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, functioning consistence. Where it comes where it becomes 772 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,440 Speaker 1: a real problem though, is with immuno deficient individuals UM 773 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: suffering from you know, say HIV, AIDS or cancer. And 774 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: what this drug does is it'say an anti parasite, anti 775 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,840 Speaker 1: parasitic drug. And for years, I believe it's sold in 776 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: the neighborhood of a dollar a pill, and then it 777 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: went up to about thirteen dollars at pill. Well, when 778 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,759 Speaker 1: our boys Screlly bought it, he decided it would be 779 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: a good idea to up the price from thirteen change too. 780 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,719 Speaker 1: I believe seven dred and fifty dollars a pill. Yeah, 781 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 1: I believe that's correct. Yeah, And when questioned about it 782 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: on CBS UH this morning, I believe it was there 783 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,360 Speaker 1: before yesterday. He argued that, you know, they're only about 784 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 1: two thousand people that used this drug actively. It's was 785 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,759 Speaker 1: not profitable for our company UM to sell it at 786 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: that price. And honestly, what we're doing by raising the 787 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 1: price here is actually very altruistic because it means that 788 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,919 Speaker 1: we can take this money and invest it back into 789 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: research and development to find a better drug UM with 790 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 1: fewer side effects. Yeah. And also there's the question of 791 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,040 Speaker 1: the enormous cost of our inde. That's something that people 792 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: would bring up to also, just just to throw this 793 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: in there, apparently it costs in the neighborhood of a 794 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: dollar or less to actually produce to manufacturer manufacturer one 795 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 1: is that is that counting the sonke and cost of 796 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 1: the of you know, the the overhead to research and 797 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,839 Speaker 1: create it. Well, I guess that's a good point because 798 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: I mean, if you spend fifty million dollars to acquire it, 799 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: I guess you have to figure that into it when 800 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 1: you know you're talking about what would be profitable to 801 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,000 Speaker 1: sell the drug force. So I didn't know this. So 802 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: the plan was to take that money and make a 803 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,000 Speaker 1: another thing. But that's the point that I guess that's 804 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 1: the reason I'm bringing this up is that would probably 805 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,719 Speaker 1: be the argument that any pharmaceutical company would make as 806 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 1: to why their quote unquote price gouging. They say, oh, well, 807 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,320 Speaker 1: our you know, biggest stakeholders are are the patients. You know, 808 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: that is who we're looking after the most. If we're 809 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,359 Speaker 1: doing anything, it is so we can funnel this money 810 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 1: back into research and development, which admittedly is very expensive 811 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,880 Speaker 1: and you know, time consuming to to do. No, there 812 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,879 Speaker 1: was there was another piece of big news though, right yeah, 813 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 1: um so bay Sically, what happened is this news came out, 814 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 1: the Internet proceeded to go bananas like it tends to do, 815 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,399 Speaker 1: and it just became a collective lynch mob for this guy, 816 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: Martin Screlly just Twitter just you know, calling him hitler, 817 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,600 Speaker 1: calling him the worst thing since pol Pot, you know, 818 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: I mean, just just really demonizing this guy, and you know, 819 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: he didn't do himself very many favors because he is 820 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: also an active Twitter user and tended to respond to 821 00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:31,000 Speaker 1: Internet criticisms by quoting Wou Tang clan lyrics saying that 822 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: he ain't nothing to blank with and um, you know 823 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,880 Speaker 1: things like that, and posting pictures of himself on one 824 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,880 Speaker 1: of those uh those the new answer to the segue 825 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,360 Speaker 1: the little roly things. You know that whiz Khalifa got 826 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,839 Speaker 1: arrested with of l A X or something that yeah, 827 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,800 Speaker 1: deep cut there, um, but yeah, and he's kind of 828 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 1: this kind of smirky little face and this you know, 829 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 1: kind of hipster haircut and just just you know, very 830 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,839 Speaker 1: easy to demonize a guy like that who just has 831 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: no self awareness when it comes of these things. And 832 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 1: so I guess, um, I'm I'm going off on a 833 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:04,680 Speaker 1: bit of a tangent here. But the thing that was 834 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: most fascinating to me about this is here is a 835 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:14,440 Speaker 1: quote unquote pharmaceutical startup making this incredibly contentious decision, and 836 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:19,439 Speaker 1: the Internet reacted and in real time you could see 837 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,080 Speaker 1: this guy like defending himself in the worst way possible. 838 00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,080 Speaker 1: You can see all the criticisms being lobbied against them. 839 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,319 Speaker 1: You do not get to see that when it comes 840 00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: to these large companies. This this is like a like 841 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: a look behind the curtain, because of the size of 842 00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,839 Speaker 1: this organization, because of who this guy is, the fact 843 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,239 Speaker 1: that he's a millennial and he's tweeting out everything and 844 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,239 Speaker 1: he has absolutely no filter. So I just think it 845 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,399 Speaker 1: was really interesting. I learned so much about what price 846 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,040 Speaker 1: gouging is, what kinds of act, what kinds of deals 847 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: are going on behind closed doors when it comes to 848 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,239 Speaker 1: these pharmaceutical companies. But it was all on this really 849 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,879 Speaker 1: interesting kind of micro level. So it was a really 850 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,920 Speaker 1: interesting glimpse into what likely is happening on a larger scale, 851 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,439 Speaker 1: but in real time in the span of a day. Yeah, 852 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,400 Speaker 1: and the price is gonna drop. It's gonna drop. Internet 853 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,279 Speaker 1: shamed him into rowing back the price, right, we'll see well. 854 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 1: And also we don't know if that was the determining factor, 855 00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 1: but people, you know, it seems like it. He said 856 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,239 Speaker 1: it was more or less I mean he I think, 857 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:20,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what the quote was exactly, but he 858 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: more or less said, um, it was sort of a 859 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,840 Speaker 1: sorry not sorry kind of where he was like, you 860 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,840 Speaker 1: know what, I feel like my decision to do this 861 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,320 Speaker 1: in the first place wasn't wrong, but clearly this is 862 00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,200 Speaker 1: bad for me, so I'm not gonna do it. So 863 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's an interesting story. And we have 864 00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:44,759 Speaker 1: to wonder what what effects this is going to have 865 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,360 Speaker 1: on the future, right on other pharmaceutical companies on the 866 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: on the ongoing fight. Sure, well, you know, Hillary Clinton 867 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: when this happened, tweeted out, this is exactly the kind 868 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,480 Speaker 1: of ridiculous price gouging that we're trying to prevent in 869 00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: big pharma. You know, I am going to roll out 870 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:05,480 Speaker 1: a plan, you know, to cap uh drug manufacturing or 871 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:10,160 Speaker 1: drug sales at some set rate above what it costs 872 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,719 Speaker 1: to produce, et cetera. Like our plan did come out. 873 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 1: But I mean this created a very large reaction, again 874 00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,640 Speaker 1: because of the echo chamber that is Twitter in the Internet. Like, 875 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,960 Speaker 1: so the whole thing was really interesting to see UH 876 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,719 Speaker 1: go down in real time. And is this sincere on 877 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,600 Speaker 1: the Clinton campaign's part or simply opportunistic? Probably both? Yeah, 878 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,640 Speaker 1: I think that. But but but then this goes into 879 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 1: the larger fight, for instance, between generic drug manufacturers in 880 00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,880 Speaker 1: India who are making things that would cost on the 881 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,840 Speaker 1: order of a dollar or a pill, a dollar or 882 00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:46,440 Speaker 1: three dollars a pill against the pharmaceutical companies, often in 883 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,239 Speaker 1: the West, who say, we did all the legwork to 884 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,840 Speaker 1: manufacture or discover this, to create it at great expense, 885 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,800 Speaker 1: and now you are counterfeiting or stealing our intellectual property, 886 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 1: which goes back again to a t p P, which 887 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 1: we don't have too much time to talk about now. 888 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: So uh, we're gonna We're gonna head out, and as always, 889 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,640 Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoyed this episode. We hope that 890 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,919 Speaker 1: you will follow us on Facebook and Twitter. But more 891 00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,400 Speaker 1: importantly than just following us or liking us, which is 892 00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,759 Speaker 1: something that always makes us a little bit less close 893 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,719 Speaker 1: to getting fired. Uh. There there is the most important, 894 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,040 Speaker 1: most singular thing you do, which is right to us. 895 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,799 Speaker 1: Let us know what you think. Uh, tell tell your 896 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 1: friends if you feel like telling your friends. Uh. And 897 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:36,520 Speaker 1: let's you know what, what would you like people to 898 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 1: write to us with? Well, I mean obviously, ideas for 899 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 1: things to research, ideas for episodes. Um, let us know 900 00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:45,480 Speaker 1: what you think about how we're doing. Let us know 901 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,640 Speaker 1: ways that we can use you know, Knowle's corner to 902 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,400 Speaker 1: better effect. Um. I just redubbed it Miles Corner, Noel's Corner. 903 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,120 Speaker 1: Um Now we just we we loved. We always love 904 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,040 Speaker 1: to hear what you guys think, because, as Been and 905 00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,320 Speaker 1: Matt always say, this is your show. Let us know 906 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,200 Speaker 1: what you think. We are conspiracy at how stuff works 907 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:17,400 Speaker 1: dot com. For more on this topic another unexplained phenomenon, 908 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,800 Speaker 1: visit YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also 909 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,919 Speaker 1: get in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy 910 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:25,320 Speaker 1: stuff