WEBVTT - From the Vault: Bicameralism, Part 1 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:07.720 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:11.120 name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:12.760 That means time to go into the vault for a 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.360 classic episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This one 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:20.759 originally aired September. And if you've heard us on the 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:23.760 show making casual references here and there to a strange 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.760 hypothesis from the history of psychology called bicameralism or the 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.440 bicameral mind, and you've wondered what we were talking about, 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.559 here you are. Here's our episode on it. Yeah, this 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.879 these were These were really popular episodes, and they were 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.880 really fun to put together. I will have to drive 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.040 home that you know that we have we we have 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.720 recorded a number of episodes since uh these episodes originally aired, Like, 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.680 for instance, I believe in one of these two episodes, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:53.320 I mentioned the book by Terrence Hawkins, uh, The Rage 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.360 of Achilles, and how it sounds interesting. Why I've since 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.440 then read that book, loved that book. And also I 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.160 think in general all we've had a lot of time 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.120 to sort of continue to to turn the concepts of 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:08.399 Julian Janes around in our mind and think more about them. Yeah, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.640 I'll say, as far as the credibility of the full 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.000 hypothesis goes about the origins of consciousness and the breakdown 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.440 of the bi cameral mind, I'm no more convinced by 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:18.600 it than I was when I first read the book, 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.720 And in fact, I think now I have even stronger 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.800 doubts than I originally did, so I ultimately I think 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.760 I've come to the conclusion I think Jans was mostly wrong. 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.600 But this remains one of the most interesting books I've 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.680 ever read. It's just a really fascinating way to approach 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.960 a difficult problem like the origin of consciousness, and bringing 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.720 together so many different disciplines and and all that. Another 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.160 thing I've mentioned on episodes since then, but that I've 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.160 definitely been thinking about, is how well I think his 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:51.720 whole hypothesis about the origin of consciousness is probably wrong. 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.160 I think there could be something in his idea that 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.560 the quality of religious behavior was was fundamentally different back 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.880 then that perhaps may be in the ancient world, like 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.040 true hallucinations were much more common within religion and some 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:08.959 things like that. Uh, there could be bits of truth 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.240 in it, even if ultimately a bicameral mind never existed 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:16.359 in humans. Yeah, my trajectory with the idea was I 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.000 was really super into it for a little bit, and 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.760 I probably backed off on it a fair amount. I 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:23.880 still I still really like it, and I think there's 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.680 probably a fair amount of truth in it. I think 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:28.760 one of the most attractive things about it, though, is 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:34.640 that it provides an hypothesis for how the gods could 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.160 have spoken to people, like how the voice of God 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.640 could have been true, and how this thing that we 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.280 see in all of these different myths and religions could 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.960 actually be occurring from a you know, from more of 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:52.360 a grounded, skeptical um mindset. So anyway, we'll just dive 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.480 back into it. We're gonna you know, going back in time, 0:02:54.800 --> 0:03:02.240 and it's re exploring our first episode on the Bicameral Mind. 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.440 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuffworks 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:14.080 dot Com. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.400 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.040 today we're gonna be returning to one of our favorite 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.600 mind blowing topics here on the show, and that's going 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.920 to be the problems inherent in our experience of consciousness. Yeah, 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:27.520 this is a great one because there's no danger of 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.400 us really explaining it and figuring out consciousness anytime soon. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.360 And there have been so many different approaches to it, 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.400 right from the neuroscientific to the psychological to the philosophic, 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.800 everyone trying to understand this question. Who am I? What 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.200 am I? What is this thing I'm experiencing? One of 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.520 the most persistent, fascinating questions in the study of mind 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.160 and biology is the question of the function of consciousness, 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.520 not just what is it, but what does it do? 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.040 I mean, you know that you have an internal subjective experience, 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.840 that you're aware of your awareness, that you can turn 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.760 your mind's eye to work over content in this deep 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.120 place in your brain. And by analogy, you believe everybody 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.800 else has this ability as well. They seem to have it, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:15.560 But biologically speaking, why does anybody have it? Now? You 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.040 might think it's just a necessary part of being an 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.920 animal with a brain, right, Like, I've got stuff to do. 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.000 I've got to eat, got to go get the groceries, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.760 got to seek shelter, got to check the coin returns 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.039 in all these candy machines. So my brain needs to 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.240 be able to think about doing that stuff in order 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.120 to do it right. But hold up for a second. 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.120 I wonder if you've ever had this experience, Robert, tell 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.480 me if you have. Do you ever have that experience 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.080 where you're driving a car and you arrive at your 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.480 destination and you suddenly realize and sort of like the 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:51.200 transition between activities when you get there, that you were 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.600 not conscious of the act of driving. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.359 you go on a sort of autopilot. I've had that 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.400 happened with generally with routine ta asks. Uh, it might 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:05.680 be driving, it might be emptying a dishwasher, loading a dishwasher, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.799 that sort of thing, you know, taking dealing with laundry. Yeah, 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.280 and so when in the example with driving, this is 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.240 often known as highway hypnosis. Maybe you were lost in 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.080 your thoughts while on the road and you just managed 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.200 to drive from one place to another without consciously thinking 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.520 about driving at all, and yet you did it. Driving 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:31.080 is this highly complicated mental task. It involves massive integration 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.839 of sense, information, and coordination of different parts of the body. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.560 You've got a time, everything just right, and yet your 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.320 brain has the power to make your body do it 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.840 without you thinking about it at all. And unlike dealing 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.880 with laundry or unloading the dishwasher. If you do it wrong, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.279 people die, So right, it's it's I think it's one 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.479 of the reasons we tend to highlight it is because 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:56.919 you think about the fact, Oh, I don't really remember 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.840 driving to work, I just kind of did it. And 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.360 it's such a dangerous thing for us to engage in 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.120 and seemingly turn our brain off to. Yeah, it can 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.840 be a terrifying experience for multiple reasons. I mean, one 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.839 is the danger, but the other is just how alien 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.240 it feels to realize that your body is capable of 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:20.640 doing complex behavior without your knowledge, essentially without you really 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.479 being aware of the entire time. So now, the next 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.320 step I want to take you on is very simple. 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:36.120 Just imagine everything you do is like this, cooking, cleaning, working, talking, fighting, parenting. 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.520 Imagine your brain is just as capable of doing everything 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.960 it does, but simply without reflecting upon those actions within 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.800 the mental theater of your consciousness. So it's highway hypnosis 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.520 for your entire life. It's total behavior hypnosis. Is it 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.839 possible for you to imagine this? It's difficult to imagine 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.480 this sort of thing, for sure, because because in this scenario, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.120 being conscious of your drive like that would be the 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:07.960 abnormality you're talking about, you know, an abnormal state of 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.160 consciousness or or even a lack of consciousness really would 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:15.480 be the normal, That would be the predominant human experience exactly. 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.640 And now that you're considering that possibility, we ask again, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.360 if that's possible, what does consciousness do and where does 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.320 it come from? And why? You know, I think we 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:31.120 often turned to various metaphors to partially explain our thought processes. Yeah, 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:32.840 how often, I mean, how often do we fall back 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.320 on computer program movie or or written fiction is a 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.080 loose means of understanding at all. But one of the 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.720 you know, the real damnable things about trying to understand 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.520 consciousness is that like we're stuck within it. It's like 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.400 it's like trying to understand that the Earth is not flat. Right. 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.560 We have all of these various means of of of 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.520 of testing it, of of looking at the data and 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.120 knowing for a fact that the world is not like 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.280 just a flat plane, and we can even in into 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.120 satellite or even a human being up into orbit to 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.800 look back down on the Earth and see it for us. 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.600 But with consciousness, it's not that easy. Uh, you know, 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.280 despite whatever different tools you might be using neuroscientific, psychological 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.120 philosophical to step outside of our consciousness and understand what 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.040 it actually is. Yeah, I mean one of the problems 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.360 is you can't really be conscious of the fact that 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.760 you do things unconsciously, Like you can't feel what that's 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.520 like in the moment, because as soon as you pay 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.320 attention to it to feel it, you're conscious again. Yeah, 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.079 and it's wouldn't be the same thing, really. Perhaps you 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.160 agree or disagree as not remembering doing something, right, you 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.199 could have been conscious of doing something and then had 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.520 amnesia and forgotten about it. Yeah, Or you know, you 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.280 hear people about here about people who consume too much 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:52.840 alcoholics have a blackout experience, or accounts of people who 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.679 who use ambient to sleep and uh, and they do 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:58.959 something that they do not remember, and you know, various 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.560 other psychological fact us that can create that experience like 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.640 this order thirty frying pans on Amazon, right, right. But 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:07.880 for for the for what we're talking about here, this 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.160 is a case where yes, you remember driving to work, 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.920 but you weren't really there for it. Yeah. Yeah, you 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:19.640 know it happened, but it's just your mind was not present, right, likewise, 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.800 it's not like undergoing anesthesia and just being out for 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.360 the course of a surgery. In thinking about all this, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.840 you know, I often come back to a quote from 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.120 the author are Scott Baker, who was recently an honor show, 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.719 and he he said this about consciousness. The magic can 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.559 only vanish as soon as the coin trick is explained. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.280 In this case, we are the magic. So, uh, I 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.640 have to think about that when trying to unravel consciousness, 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.280 like we're we're within consciousness, we're creatures of consciousness. And 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.640 then to try and take it apart as to take 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.680 about ourselves. Well, I know Scott has some anxieties about 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:56.520 the Well I don't want to put words into his mouth, 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.160 but I think he has some anxieties about you know, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.960 the consequence is of explaining consciousness too much, Like if 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.480 you do explain it, does that create a sort of 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:10.680 crisis of meaning of existence? Yeah, the sonantic apocalypse. Yeah. 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.760 So this leads us into what we're gonna be talking 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.000 about for the next two episodes of the show. This 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:17.800 is going to be the first part of a two 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.520 part series where we're going to be discussing a fascinating 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:27.920 hypothesis in the history of psychology known as bicameralism. Now, specifically, 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:29.920 we're gonna be looking at the work of the American 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:34.160 psychologist Julian Jaynes in his nineteen seventy six book The 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.959 Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.520 The two episodes that we're gonna do, we're gonna break 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.600 down roughly like this. In the first episode, we're going 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:48.200 to just try to explain what Julian Jane's theory of 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.720 the bicameral mind and of modern consciousness is and how 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.880 he gets there from the problem of consciousness. And then 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.800 in the second episode, we want to discuss his argument, 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.040 like his evidence for the theory of the bi cameral mind, 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.240 how he sees evidence of this in history, and maybe 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.160 some reactions to the idea since the bicameral mind. And 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.880 we should be super clear here at the beginning that 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:16.120 this was and still is a controversial hypothesis. For the 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.880 purposes of discussion today, we're going to be entertaining it 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.000 as a hypothetical, but you should not take this to 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:26.120 be an endorsement of the hypothesis as fact. It's not 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.199 widely believed to be correct and full though it has 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.960 had many supporters, and even if it's not correct and full, 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.079 which is probably not, it might be correct in part. Yeah. Indeed, 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:36.720 there are gonna be a lot of points in this 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.319 episode where we're discussing the theory of the bicameral mind 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.160 as if it is something that we are totally convinced of. Yeah, 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.760 and this book I just mentioned the origin of consciousness 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:48.800 in the Breakdown of the bi cameral Mind. I would 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.840 compare it to the work of, for example, James Fraser 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.559 because I think it's one of those books that's worth 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.160 reading even if it's almost completely wrong, because it's just 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.959 such a fascinating synthesis of so many disciplines. Today and 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.920 the next episode, we're going to be diving through history, archaeology, 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:13.880 ancient literature, philosophy, psychiatry, neuroscience, and just direct phenomenological experience. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:18.520 I read that Dawkins criticized, Well, what Dawkins said of 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.880 the book is that it's either Richard Dawkins either said 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:22.880 that it's brilliant or it's rubbish, and that there's no 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.880 in between. I disagree with that, Yeah, I would. Yeah, 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.280 I think that it's very possible that it is both 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.120 brilliant and wrong. Yeah, if nothing else, I think it 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.679 serves as a fascinating thought experiment. Yeah, what if this 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.719 is true? What if this were true? And how does 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.880 it force us to reinterpret the past and the legacy 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.920 of our species? Yeah? So, even though I suspect its 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.360 conclusions are probably wrong or at least wrong in part, 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:51.719 this is one of the most interesting books I've ever 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.959 read in my life. So, strap in, I think we 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.079 should start just by giving a straight version of Jane's 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.280 conclusion and then work our way back to it. Does 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.480 that make sense to you, Robert, Oh, Yeah, that's pretty 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.520 much what he does in the book. Yeah, here's this 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:10.720 amazing theory of what consciousness consists of and what it 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.800 used to consist of or not consist of, and then 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.520 he works backwards from there. Right, And so here's the 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.960 most basic summary I can give of his conclusion. Until 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:25.040 roughly three thousand years ago, human beings were not conscious. 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:31.280 Around that time, modern human consciousness began as a cultural invention, 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:35.520 probably in Mesopotamia that's spread across the world over time. 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:40.160 And before that time, for thousands of years, almost all 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.440 humans were not conscious in the way we are, But 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:48.880 instead we're commanded in all novel behaviors by hallucinated voices 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.040 that they called gods. And I just want to drive 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.240 home the impact of this. The argument is that ancient 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.880 people's did not think like we think. The god run human, 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.520 as he refers to him, at one point experience something 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.520 that for us would feel like an altered state of 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.800 consciousness or spiritual event. Is if we were hypnotized by 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.280 a voice like that of a god and it just 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.959 told us what to do, and then catastrophe forces us 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.400 to learn consciousness, and in doing so, we ceased hearing 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.280 the voices of the gods as we once did. Yeah. So, 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.280 just to be clear about this, what is being proposed 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.280 is in this period, which he calls the period before consciousness, 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.400 is the period of the bicameral human being. In the 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:36.920 bicameral mind, there was no consciousness. There was just action 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:42.280 commanded by hallucinated voices from another part of the brain 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.800 that was believed to be a god. Yeah. And what 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.960 we'll get into the idea of schizophrenia as it released 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.920 all of this in the second episode. But James does 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.520 say that, like straight up, this was a time when 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.120 everybody was essentially schizophrenic. Now One of the things that's 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.680 interesting about this is it runs own or to a 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.560 lot of what we do when we read ancient literature 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.640 and and flip through ancient history, is that here's I 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.240 would describe my experience this way. Maybe maybe you'll tell 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.200 me whether you think it's the same for you. When 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.360 I read a work of ancient poetry, or I read 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.920 about you know, very very ancient, like the ancient Egypt 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.880 or ancient Mesopotamia, stuff that goes way way back from 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:27.120 before the Roman Empire, say, I feel like, on the 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:32.560 face of it, I encounter humans who are completely alien 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.240 to me. I feel like I can't identify with them, 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.400 and I don't understand the way they're being described. And 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.880 what usually happens is I say, okay, well, this is 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.240 just a problem of translation, Like I'm not getting some 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.560 things about the cultural ways that their lives are communicated 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.960 through this literature and recorded. Um so I just need 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.640 to find ways of seeing the analogies between people like 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.760 us and people like them and say, Okay, here they 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.680 were really more like us, and here's why things are 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.480 being misunderstood. But another way, do you kind of have 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:11.200 that same experience? Um? Yeah, well it depends I mean definitely. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.720 I would say with the oldest civilization that we continually 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.160 discuss here, it is probably you know, ancient Egypt, and 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:18.680 you know, we've touched on the fact that like the 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.000 religion of ancient Egypt did not did not travel well 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.960 beyond its borders, and that that's they were, They were 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.080 really alien people to try and understand. So yeah, I 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:32.480 definitely feel that when I'm whenever we're researching the ancient Egyptians, uh, 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.520 to a certain extent, I felt that we were talking about, uh, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.600 the you know, ancient ancient Mesopotamia as it relates to 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.920 the Tower of Babel. But but there's I feel like 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.920 there's often also this issue that I guess is best 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:50.240 summed up by the various medieval pieces of art where 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.440 you know, such as you know, the stuff by Brugal 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.120 the Elder, where you have some sort of mythic thing 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.600 going on, like the Tower of of Babel, but then 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.720 you also have scenes of everyday life. And so I think, well, 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.720 if I'm encountering something that doesn't feel very human and 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.240 looking at an ancient culture, then perhaps that's because this 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.960 is just like the skeleton of experience. This is just 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.680 the heroes the gods, the myths, and very little is 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.600 recorded of daily struggles and daily life. Yeah, but what 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.159 if the issue is not so much that the ways 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.639 they're similar to us is being lost in translation, but 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.600 it's that we're reading that basically correct at face value, 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.840 and they just weren't like us. Yeah. I feel like 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.159 it's it's kind of a challenging perspective to try and 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.000 wrestle with because I want to humanize figures of the past, 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.879 especially you know, people in other cultures. It feels wrong 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:47.760 to say, look at at at ancient Egyptians, individuals and 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.240 you know, in ancient civilizations of Asia or Africa, and 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.320 and think of them as alien, to think of them 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.160 as having a different thought process than than we have, right. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.600 I Mean, one way I think that we're resistant to 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.560 that is that there's a sort of implied like denigration 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.720 in that saying like, oh, if they were very different 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.480 from us, they weren't as good as us, And we 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.720 certainly don't want to think that way, but we it 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:15.320 might just be the case that their internal mental life 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.080 was very different than the internal mental life of people 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.960 on Earth today. Yeah, And before we dive in any deeper, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:22.800 I do want to point out that, yes, the bicameral 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.640 mind is referenced in HBO's Westworld, UH. And I really 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.520 love Westward. I think it's a wonderful show. However, I 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.800 think you'll find that the the idea of the bicameral 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:38.520 mind and the ramifications of bicameralism are far more complex, rewarding, 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:43.000 and terrifying, uh than anything that's explored in that show. 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.679 I totally agree. I remember that it came up, but 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.760 I don't remember there being much about it in the show. Well, Robert, 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.479 I think maybe we should start where Jane's starts in 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.879 his book, which is with the problem of consciousness. And 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.480 he's got he's got an introduction to his book that 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.399 just get is a brief history of all the solutions 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.359 that people have tried to offer to the problem of 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.439 consciousness over the years, which, even if you don't if 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.679 you're not interested in his bicameral theory, this is a 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.960 cool intro to read because it's such a well written 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.600 and concise summary of the history of people trying to 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.800 deal with with what consciousness is and where it came 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.120 from up until the mid nineteen seventies. And he's got 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.159 a quote where he describes the you know, the question 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.399 at the root of the problem of consciousness that is 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.919 so good I had to read it. So consciousness is 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:37.000 quote a secret theater of speechless monologue and prevenient counsel, 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.680 an invisible mansion of all moods, musings, and mysteries, and 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:46.520 infinite resort of disappointments and discoveries. A whole kingdom where 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:50.600 each of us reigns reclusively alone, questioning what we will, 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.400 commanding what we can. A hidden hermitage where we may 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.960 study out the troubled book of what we have done 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:01.040 and yet may do. An introcosum that is more myself 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.480 than anything I can find in a mirror, This consciousness 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.760 that is myself of selves, that is everything and yet 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.600 nothing at all. What is it? And where did it 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.320 come from? And why? I should also say that the 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.320 description and an infinite resort of disappointments and discoveries a 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:24.560 perfect review for Disney World. Wait, what are the discoveries 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.639 the discoveries of disappointments or no, no no, the discoveries are 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.960 you are discoveries. It's full of just wonders and disappointments. 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.760 So I mean, I loved it, but yeah, it's a 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.280 it's a it's it's hard to contemplate the discovery of 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.240 what other people throw in the trash. Maybe, isn't that 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.239 one of the most interesting things about going to an 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.760 amusement park is looking in the trash can and seeing 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.600 what people throw away. Maybe this is just me um, 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:50.399 Maybe this is a huge Joe. I don't know. I 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.040 don't remember the trash cans of Disney World so that much. 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.720 But maybe that's just because it was you know, stimulation overload. No, 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:00.800 it's great when you let you see a our glasses 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.920 in there or something and it's like, huh hm. Anyway 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.560 back to the problem of consciousness. So, in other words, 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:12.520 it's not hard to understand where human beings came from. 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:17.040 Biology and evolution seemed totally sufficient to explain the existence 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:21.199 of bipedal primates eating and reproducing and making tools. But 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.160 the question is not why are those creatures here? It's 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.040 why are we here? These entities of reflection and awareness 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.679 that seemed to inhabit the bodies of these bipedal primates, 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:35.200 and so one can easily imagine, as we talked about 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.520 earlier in the introduction, bipedal primates that do all the 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.280 same stuff we do, but our automata there's no inner 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:47.040 awareness or capacity for deliberative thought or reflection. So if 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.600 if we're evolved beings, at what point in our evolution 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.600 did consciousness appear? And so he he offers a few 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.480 thoughts of this. One of them is the idea that 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:00.480 consciousness is a property of matter. Right, so the relationship 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.080 of consciousness to what we are conscious of is not 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:08.479 fundamentally different from the relationship between objects interacting physically by 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:13.080 contact or by gravity. It's only different in complexity. Of course, 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:17.120 Jaynes is not persuaded by this view, And I would 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.359 just say, if consciousness is an inherent property of matter, 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:23.800 like a can of baked beans is in some way conscious, 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:28.639 why do we completely lose consciousness under general anesthesia? Like 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:31.040 if you've ever been put under for surgery, you know 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.439 what it's like. There's no consciousness whatsoever. It's just a 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:39.120 black hole in your in your experience. But so yeah, 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:42.359 there's no reflection, no internal experience, no memory, no choice, 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.560 no dreams. Your mind just ceases until you wake up. 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:49.080 But while you're under anesthesia, you still have the same 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.679