1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 2: That's going. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 3: It's stay Get excusa. 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: Sixteen sixteen. Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where 5 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 2: we talk to the Internet's characters of the day to 6 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 2: see how their moment affected them and what that says 7 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: about us in the Internet. However, we are not doing 8 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: that this week. This is a bonus episode in our 9 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 2: into the series. In our last episode, we took a 10 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 2: look at how the manisphere has developed in the last decade, 11 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 2: beginning with gamer Gate and the Ilavista killings in twenty fourteen, 12 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: all the way through now where Joe Rogan is getting 13 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: name checked at a fascist acceptance event. It's a journey. 14 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 2: And today I wanted to share two conversations I've had 15 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: with two really wonderful people who have been studying this 16 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: area for quite some time, which brings me to just 17 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: a little bit of housekeeping at the top, an apology 18 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: from me Ian if you could put on some like 19 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: YouTuber apology music. As I mentioned in my last episode, 20 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: I've been getting some kickback on this series for not 21 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: including the voices of men enough, and so to start 22 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: to also men listening, I just wanted to apologize if 23 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: you felt silenced or quite frankly attacked by my bitchy 24 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: little voice. You are valid, you are heard, you are kings. 25 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: And obviously you didn't listen to the end of the 26 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 2: last episode because I said that today I would be 27 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: speaking with two men who I admire very much. But still, 28 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I get it. You guys are like super 29 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: super busy. So let's get into it, shall we. Both 30 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: of my guests today are talented and prolific writers, and 31 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: in a very weird coincidence, both just released very thorough 32 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: analyzes of Diddy. First, I was really thrilled to get 33 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: the chance to speak with FD signifier, a YouTuber I 34 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: really admire who has been analyzing the Manisphere on his 35 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: channel four years and does something I've seen others consistently 36 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 2: struggle to do, which is hold empathy for men sucked 37 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: into that space while always prioritizing those most deeply affected 38 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: by it. Beginning with a closer look at the Black 39 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 2: Manisphere specifically, FD has gone on to look at the 40 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: world of in cells, speak to former members of the Manisphere, 41 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: take a look at how popular media reinforces these narratives, 42 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: and has taken a look at how the Manisphere prays 43 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: on the neurodivergent. Truly, if you take in anyone else's 44 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: work on this subject, let it be his. Here's my 45 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: talk with FD signifier. 46 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: I am FD signifier. I am a YouTube video essayist. 47 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: For those who don't know what that is. We're kind 48 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: of a mix between a think of like the classic 49 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: newspaper editor like journalists, investigative journalists slash documentarian slash big 50 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: old nerd, theater kid type energy, a lot of that, 51 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: like mixing the one. I tend to focus on a 52 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: cross section of gender and masculine, any race, specifically black 53 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: issues and politics. 54 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: And you also have an academic background in talking I 55 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: mean obviously not the manisphere explicitly, but that sort of 56 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: expanded universe because and I know you've said this in 57 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: your work too, it's really hard to define what we're 58 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: actually talking about. 59 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, My master thesis was on spree shooters, and 60 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: as a product of studying that population, you end up 61 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: in the same place as a lot of the manisphere 62 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: red pill at right stuff, because they're all kind of, 63 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: as you alluded to, they're all kind of in the 64 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: same house, just in different rooms. Once you've kind of 65 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: broken down the function of one group you've sixty to 66 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: seventy five percent broken down the function of all of them. 67 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot there, and a lot of 68 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: it has to do explicitly with masculinity, So there's a 69 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: lot of there there. 70 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: So when you started tackling this topic explicitly more on 71 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: your channel, what led you to like, Okay, it's time 72 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: for me to dissect this topic. What were you not 73 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: seeing in those discussions at the beginning of this work 74 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: that you wanted to bring to the table. 75 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: I'm older than much of my audience in all of 76 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: my peers, which creates a lot of distance but also 77 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: a lot of perspective, and so me as a married man, 78 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: father of two, it was hard for me to kind 79 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: of fathom that this was so serious. As I sat, 80 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: as I got more and more online, I was like, Oh, 81 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: this is actually way more serious than I thought. I 82 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: started seeing it boomerang back to my real life, where 83 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: I would have parents of other children say my son 84 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: brought home this and started saying this stuff about femoids 85 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: and all kinds of weird crap about women, and I'm like, oh, 86 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: I actually know that guy. H Yeah, let me maybe 87 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: this is a real thing that I should get into. 88 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: And then I also recognized, as I allude to earlier, 89 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: that no disrespect to a lot of my contemporaries, none 90 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: of them were really putting in useful analysis as to 91 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: the true causes and underlying elements. Nobody had really broken down, 92 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: like my first video is understanding the manisphere. It doesn't 93 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: take much, especially amongst you know, my audience, to say, yeah, 94 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: this is dumb. These people are dumb. Don't be like them. 95 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: It's more valuable, I think, long term, for more people 96 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: to have a developed analysis of how this world functions, 97 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: so that we can have a better tools for how 98 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: to make it not function anymore, and more explicitly, for parents, 99 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: for people who have these types of guys in their 100 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: lives to know what it is that is bringing them. 101 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: Like the first thing you'll see as a friend or 102 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: a peer or a parent is really like the fifth 103 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: step of the problem. Right when they start repeating these 104 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: talking points to you in real life, they've already been 105 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: deep in for a while where they get comfortable to. 106 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: They're comfortable bringing up at school. 107 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: They're evangelizing at that point. They're true believers if they've 108 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: gotten to that point. And so you know what things 109 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: that you miss up until that point, And like, if 110 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: you are educated enough to see those things, how do 111 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: you address them then? Better yet, what type of energy 112 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: and relationships can you be building in the home to 113 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: make this less likely with children and teenagers and peers 114 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: and friends. And we didn't really have much for that, 115 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: And so that's kind of one of the things I 116 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: hope to contribute to. One of the things that is 117 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: often a failure on our part to understand is that 118 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: these are actually very complex communities with very intelligent, nuanced contributors. 119 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: It requires like that level of respect to understand what's 120 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: going on. Otherwise you just won't know. They've built their 121 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: communities for the sole purpose of keeping normal people out 122 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: by being repulsive or cryptic in the way they engage 123 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: with each other. 124 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: For you, in terms of like what the manisphere is 125 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: and what it's influence is, where does the story start, 126 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: I've gotten a lot of different answers to this question. 127 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: So white supremacy, I mean, I mean, it's a big 128 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: part of it. It starts with patriarchy here in the States. 129 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: It starts with American exceptionalism to an extent, it starts 130 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: with Western ideology and thought. The impetus for how a 131 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff becomes appealing to the young men 132 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: that get into it is they're outsiders. They're they're socially 133 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: ineffective for a variety of reasons. It might be because 134 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: they're just not that attractive or not as attractive as 135 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: some of their peers. They may be late social bloomers, 136 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: late physical bloomers. They may have genuine behavioral or mental 137 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: health issues that make it hard for them to socialize. 138 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: They may have a physical disability. They may be poor, 139 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: they may be a minority of some sort. All these 140 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: things could could contribute to a sense of otherness and 141 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: then the targeting of ostracism, and that contributes to the 142 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: desire to find places where you can feel belonging, community 143 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: and power. Not all cases, not all cases, but in 144 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: some of these cases, these young men become targeted by 145 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: these different communities, different grifters looking to get a quick 146 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: buck out of them. Mold, you're not feeling good about society, 147 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: Well take this class and I'll teach you how to 148 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: be a big baller or whatever Andrew Tate was selling. 149 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: Aside from offering them a false like solution to their problem, 150 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: the biggest thing that people don't get is that it 151 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: offers them belonging. People that stay the longest and fall 152 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: in the deepest is because that is where they found community. 153 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: If it's community built around misogyny or racism or something else, fine, 154 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: but it's more than the community they had, you know, 155 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: away from their keyboard. Michael Kimmel has some good stuff 156 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: on this. I have the obligatory point out that Michael 157 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: Kimmel has a me too, several me two cases out there, 158 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: and Michael Kimmel calls agrieved entitlement, which is connected to 159 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff. And it's you know, especially 160 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,599 Speaker 1: for white, young white men who while this is a 161 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: very diverse community, people don't give you enough credit for 162 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: how diverse it is. But for white men in particular, 163 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: these young white boys are told that they're the you know, 164 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: the protagonist, the heroes of their own stories in all 165 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: of our media, it's in our mythology. And then they 166 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: grow up and find out, no, you're just a peon 167 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: at best. You're a worker, you know, and the people 168 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: that you know have the power over you. Their parents 169 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: also have the power over your parents, and their grandparents 170 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: have the power over your grandparents. And there's nothing you 171 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: could do about it. It just lends itself to a 172 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: unfortunate cocktail of toxic elements that for a handful of 173 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: these young men makes a edge lord creator talking about 174 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: how women shouldn't be able to vote and that'll fix 175 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: all our problems. It makes that appealing. So I, as 176 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: a young man, did not have a lot of success 177 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: with women. You know, I did not have any I'd 178 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: never had girlfriend in high school, have plenty of girls 179 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: I liked and I crushed on, no success. It wasn't 180 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: until halfway through college that I started to kind of 181 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: figure things out. And it was only after I had 182 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: done some traditionally masculine things to make myself just service 183 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: level more appealing to women. And there was a bitterness 184 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: there around that. There was a frustration, There was some 185 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: animosity and some misogyny involved in that experience. My general 186 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: theory is that most boys that end up in this 187 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: space even today grow out of it just by necessity 188 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: of continuing go on with life. That grow out of it, 189 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: they may have some residual effects. I'm not saying everybody 190 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: just completely perfectly grows out of it, but you grow 191 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: out of the danger zone, so to speak. But today, 192 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: it's just you don't have to as much Like I 193 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: had to grow out of that to get on with 194 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: my life, to go get a job, to continue to 195 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: try to find partners, partners in love, et cetera, et cetera, 196 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: to learn how to talk to women face to face 197 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: because there was no swiping left right. So like, there's 198 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: so much of our society has been atomized. I think 199 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: young men who have those challenges are never put in 200 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: positions to overcome them in productive ways. And then you 201 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: have this entire ecosystem of grifters who are collecting money 202 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: off of their pain, you know, and so that just 203 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: kind of makes it stronger, makes it hold longer. And 204 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: we're sitting here trying to figure out what to do 205 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: about it. 206 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 2: Now, what is the bait to draw, you know, people 207 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: into this space? And has it changed over time? 208 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: It hasn't changed. It's panacea. It's I can I can 209 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: solve the problem. This is it's a classic. It's what 210 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: this what salespeople have done since the beginning of time. 211 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: You have a problem, I have a solution. The solution 212 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: is insert awful thing here. The problem is that the 213 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: problems are becoming maybe bigger and more more difficult to 214 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: address in any form of fashion. You know, the one 215 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: of the premitive conversations in the manisphere of red pill 216 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: whatever space is is, you know, income and being a 217 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: high value man and making money because you need money 218 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: to attract a mate. And that's just true, that's just reality. 219 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: If you have less money, you will have less options 220 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: in the dating market. That is more of a problem 221 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, in our modern economy, in our 222 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: modern work world, where making more money is difficult, women 223 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: have gotten to a point where they can make their 224 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: own money. And we're not going back to the sixties 225 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: and fifties when a woman needed a man to survive. 226 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: And so you have a lot of dudes that never 227 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: develop personalities because they thought they would just have a 228 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: good job. There's so much to that, the dregs and 229 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: and scourge of late capitalism. But these young men who 230 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: grew up watching, you know, all these images of masculinity, 231 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: who grew up being taught all these things about masculinity, 232 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: they do not care. They want their tread wife and 233 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: their factory job back. They will literally tear everything down 234 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: trying to get it back. Tear everything except for the 235 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: thing that needs to be torn down trying to get 236 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: it back. 237 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: Even though I feel like sometimes the way that the 238 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: manisphere is sort of almost like scapegoated, is like, well 239 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: it was. 240 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: That, that was that so, and there was nothing, And 241 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: that's what I'm alluding to. So there's something to the 242 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: fact that he went on Aiden Ross and Joe Rogan's 243 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: podcast that I think a lot of left leaning people 244 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: really underappreciate, like did not appreciate how significant that was. 245 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: There's something to that, But at the end of the day, 246 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: we're mostly just talking about racism and misogyny. Like it's 247 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: not that it's not that deep. There's an angle there 248 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: to discuss, but let's not I think a lot of 249 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: people are trying on purpose to miss the forest from 250 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: the trees. Then that require them to do some self 251 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: reflection on their own politics. We want to stick to 252 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: the manisphere. 253 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: You famously hate to do that. 254 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, the truth of the matter is the media is 255 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: informed by the culture. It's not the other way around. 256 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of times because that's something 257 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: we can really respond to a control and it also 258 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: again alleviates responsibility on our part. We want to make 259 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: it seem like, well, my son started watching these manisphere 260 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: type people, and then suddenly he became a misogynist, and 261 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: I'm like, and I just want to be like, I 262 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: just want to let you know, if your son gets 263 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: in the manisphere, that's your fault. You have created an 264 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: environment where that seemed like a reasonable response to his 265 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: own pain and concerns and issues, and that is not 266 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: just the individual's fault. That's a cultural standard. The normous misogyny, 267 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: the norm is racism, the norm is in aphobia. Those 268 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: are American principles that we don't like to admit are there. 269 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: And so it of course individuals weaned in that culture, 270 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: in that environment are going to respond and without anyone 271 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: to kind of like, hey, nope, not here, not in 272 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: this house, not this community, not in this family, if 273 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: there's nothing to curtail that, it's going to be very 274 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: easy for those types of messages to resonate, for those 275 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: type of messengers to pull them into those spaces. And 276 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: so we have to do two things. One, we have 277 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: to be responsible with the culture and community we're producing 278 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: so that it's less likely to produced those types of things. 279 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: But the other big thing is we also have to 280 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: as as you know, as creators spend a little more 281 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: time celebrating and contributing to the creation of media. That's 282 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: just I talk about Star Trek. I wish I had 283 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: talked about like One Piece, which is an anime, and 284 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: so many other types of media that are about a 285 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: world that is more virtuous and kind of more gets 286 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: to like the type of world we're trying to create 287 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: through our politics, as opposed to we're going to comment 288 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: on how bad the world is through this dark white 289 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: guy who does edgy things and is really cool and 290 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: has a jacket and guns. But you know, you're not 291 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: supposed to want to be like them. 292 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: But look at how the but the scorpion jacket, the 293 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: scorpion jacket. 294 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. 295 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: I also I wanted to go into your work on 296 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 2: the Black Manisphere. You're one of the few creators I've 297 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: seen who has really got into this and early. So 298 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 2: could you tell me a little bit about this space? 299 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: When did it crop up and how does it? Does 300 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: it function any differently than other Manisphere spaces? 301 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Black Manisphere, they would say that they, 302 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: as a formal like online space, predate the Manisphere, which 303 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: I would agree with. The Black Manisphere comes out of 304 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: like a history of gender conflict within Black America between 305 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: black men and women, which is a byproduct of you know, 306 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: the history of racism, the dregs and results of slave ran, 307 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: Jim Crow segregation, etc. And just the genuine fact that 308 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: black men and women were never supposed to operate in 309 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: America as men and women the same way white people were. 310 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: And so that creates a just stew of issues and 311 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: conflicts as men black men are trying to pursue manhood 312 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: and masculinity in a way similar to white men do, 313 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: and as black women try to pursue femininity in a 314 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: way similar to white women do. And this creates all 315 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: these different venues for conflict that has historically made the 316 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: talk show with you know, why are all men dogs? 317 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: You know, why don't black women let a black man lead? 318 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: That's literally going back to the seventies, that's been a 319 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: thing in our media. And so the manisphere starts to 320 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: become a thing in the two thousands with the onset 321 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: of YouTube and the Internet communities, because now these men 322 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: who feel these things about black women, much like the 323 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: normal manosphere, can come together and start to voice their 324 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: issues YadA, YadA, YadA. Beyond that unique like origin point, 325 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: no how that kind of vacillates that throughout the culture. 326 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: It's not that different. It's still misogyny and masculine conflict. 327 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: It's still men and boys trying to claim a sense 328 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: of power in their masculinity through the denigration of women. 329 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: It's a little less racist most of the time, it's 330 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: a little less xenophobic most of the time. It's just 331 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: as misogynistic. There's a couple of differences, Like a lot 332 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: of the Black manisphere people, some of them try to 333 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: present themselves as pro black and pro black people, and 334 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: so they can kind of sneak things in in ways 335 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: that if you're not alert to it, you don't hear it. 336 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: So their misogyny can be very sublimated into like these 337 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: just classical images of masculinity and gender because there's a feeling, well, 338 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: black people's problems that the black family isn't in order, 339 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,719 Speaker 1: which is true to an extent. There's validity to that statement. 340 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: So that's why black women need to stop worrying so 341 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: much about their education and stop telling black men what 342 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: to do. That it is so like it's oh there, 343 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: it is, oh exactly exactly. For me, talking about it 344 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: was almost more difficult because there's a thing that happens 345 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: when you kind of know your enemy, you cut deeper. 346 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: You know that, I mean, but I think even what 347 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 2: you're describing like is a critical part of the work, right. 348 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: It is like processing your own feelings towards these spaces 349 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: and then figuring out what is a constructive way to 350 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 2: talk about it. Because I feel like, like you're saying, like, 351 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: even creators I enjoy, a lot of people blow through 352 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: the like let's just give the raw emotion to it, 353 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: as opposed to like really thinking about it, because your 354 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: work is so thorough and so thoughtful, and you're also thinking, 355 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: you know, coming from the perspective of a parent. My 356 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 2: sort of worry is that this is going to turn 357 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: into some kind of moral pan that will be deeply 358 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 2: unproductive and send people further, like send you know, young 359 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: men further into this think it. 360 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: I don't think it'll get that real moral panic energy, 361 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: but I want to I want you to finish your question, 362 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: but I disagree that it'll ever be the true moral panic, 363 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why. 364 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: Oh please, Yes. My question was just if someone's listening 365 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: who is a parent or has someone in their life 366 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 2: who is clearly internalizing this stuff, where do you start 367 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: to address it. 368 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: I'm of two minds that are I think probably need 369 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: to work together. I'm from a relatively traditional household where 370 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: things like child autonomy and privacy were not greatly respected 371 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: by my parents. Sure, and I think you have to 372 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: be open to that idea when it comes to monitoring 373 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: what your child is consuming on the internet. Maybe you 374 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: don't want to have like outright spy where you don't 375 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: want to be a full on police officer in your 376 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: own home to your child because that just creates them 377 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: being sneakier. But you definitely don't don't want to be complete, 378 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: like stop handing the tablet to your kids and saying 379 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: go nuts. These companies, these organizations, these the AI, the algorithms, 380 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: all these machines are trained to addict your child to 381 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: the screen and they do not care how they do that. 382 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: And one of the most fundamentally predictable ways they know 383 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: they can do that, and you can probably got this 384 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: one of videos is through making them upset, making them angry, 385 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: making them outrage. And one of the easiest way to 386 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: piss people off is to show them a woman doing 387 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: the thing a woman's not supposed to do. Like being 388 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: sexy but not but in public, or you know, wanting 389 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: more money than she's willing to work for some other Oh, 390 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: she cheated on her boyfriend and then rolled her eyes 391 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: like whatever. Like so many of the videos start with 392 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: girl does thing and then gets put in place by 393 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: alpha male. Like that's sixty percent of the video titles. Yeah, 394 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: and so when you're your twelve year old watches that, like, 395 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: stop letting them watch. That is what I'm getting to. 396 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: The Other thing is you have to be willing to dismantle. 397 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: And this is why I don't think it'll become a 398 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: true moral panic. Moral panics tend to be truly transgressive. 399 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: Misogyny isn't transgressive. Misogyny is reinforcing the social norm. Transgressive 400 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: is feminism, Transgressive is queer, transgressive is black. Like, so 401 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: those things create moral panics. Heavy metal created the moral 402 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: panic because it was counterculture and subversive and anti authoritarian 403 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: and all those things. This stuff is just a little too. 404 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: It's embarrassing little Timmy says something really misogynistic to his sister, 405 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: and now I have to deal with this at home. 406 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: And because it would shine such an ugly eye on 407 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: the true nature of some people's households and some communities. 408 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: I don't think it'll ever reach the true moral panic, 409 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: because according to certain people, this is what won the 410 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: election for Donald Trump. But to fully go back to 411 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: answering that question, you have to dismantle the utility of 412 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: this ideology in your their own home. And that doesn't 413 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: mean you have to become like a hardcore feminist and 414 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: read JUDITHH. Butler and Audie Lord. Just make it so 415 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: it's not so easy for misogyny to pass in your home. 416 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: Tell your brother in law to shut the fuck up 417 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: when he says something sexist and says it's a joke. 418 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: Build into goodness with your child, not based on their 419 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: ability to perform masculinity, but in their innate goodness. Let 420 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: them feel comfortable being emotional. Let them feel comfortable about crying. 421 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: Explain to them how corrosion it is when they like 422 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: a girl. Let them know you can like this girl. 423 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: She may not like you, and that's okay, And that 424 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: doesn't mean an think about you, and it definitely doesn't 425 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: mean anything about them. And challenge the stuff when you 426 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: see it. That, along with a slow of other things 427 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: that I don't have time to get into, is going 428 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: to be way more useful than even just sending them 429 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: one of my videos. One of my videos is more 430 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: for you to understand it so that you can address 431 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: it in reality. One of my mentors talked about the 432 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: fact that this isn't an issue of misinformation. This is 433 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: an issue of disinf The knowledge is out there. We 434 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: just have to get it in the right places and 435 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: get it into people's systems for real. 436 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: FT Signifier, thank you so much for your time. This 437 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: is like, this is so wonderful. Thank you so much 438 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: to FT signifier. I cannot recommend his channel enough. And 439 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 2: when we come back, Thanking and Boisden, Robert Evans, Welcome 440 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: back to sixteenth minute. My cat ate wrapping paper and 441 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 2: I had to pay a medical professional seven hundred and 442 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: fifty dollars about it. And to close out part two 443 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: of our Manisphere series, I'm speaking with one of the 444 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: producers of this very show, Robert Evans, who's been both 445 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: reporting and commentating on Manisphere spaces, specifically extreme All to 446 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: Right spaces for years and famously connected a series of 447 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: mass shootings we discussed earlier to in cell forums. In 448 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: this house, we love Robert, and so here's our chat 449 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 2: because we've like talked about this before, and we've both 450 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 2: spent the better part of our lives on the internet. 451 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: When did you start seeing communities like this cropping up? 452 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: You know? 453 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 3: I started to see inklings of this in like late 454 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, and like the comments on Cracked articles right 455 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 3: where we would do pieces that were talking about like 456 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 3: rape survivors or the trans experience, and there would be 457 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 3: these like, you know, we would get a great response, 458 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 3: they got a lot of people reading them, but we 459 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 3: would get these like really weirdly hostile posts, and it 460 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: became clear I would get some emails too, you know, 461 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 3: So it became clear there was some more communities of 462 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: people who were like getting really angry because I was, 463 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: you know, I was more or less just a libertarian 464 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: at that point, a libertarian who had like voted for 465 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 3: Obama because Bush was a fucking disaster, right, But I 466 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 3: didn't really think about I didn't think about like writing, 467 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 3: you know, doing articles with like trans people about the 468 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 3: realities of transitioning as like a political act. I was 469 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 3: just like, oh, I don't know much about what it's 470 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 3: like to be trans. This is interesting, you know, but 471 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 3: it was pissing some people off a ton and so 472 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 3: I was like, well, this is odd, and it all 473 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 3: kind of crystallized in twenty fourteen, when back at Cracked, 474 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 3: we did a sketch comedy video, the premise of which was, 475 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 3: what if all of like the main websites on the 476 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 3: Internet today were kids in a high school? Right, okay? 477 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: Twenty fourteen? 478 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 3: I think it was yeah, ye, And you know, among 479 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 3: the things in that is we had eight chan as 480 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 3: a kid, eight Chan, which had just come about gamer. 481 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: I was aware of gamergait as it was happening. I 482 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 3: did not take it super seriously in its early stages, 483 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 3: like I got we all got some harassment, but it 484 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 3: was like these freaks on the internet are like angry 485 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: about girls. We've always known some of these people were there. 486 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 3: It was not clear to me at that immediate point 487 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 3: that this was like going to redefine how politics worked 488 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 3: in the country. Right when it became clear to me, 489 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 3: because those kids get kicked off a four chan, eight 490 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 3: chan is started and eight chan becomes their home. They 491 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 3: develop a board on eight chan called Baphomet, which is 492 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 3: where like harassment campaigns are architected. And this video comes 493 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 3: out and whoever wrote it, I forget which of our 494 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 3: writers like actually did the script, but they envisioned eight 495 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 3: chan as like this little nerdy kid who was just 496 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 3: constantly sexually harassing the popular girl who was the stand 497 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 3: in for Facebook, right, and like it was not a 498 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 3: super deep thing here, Like that was the joke, right, 499 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 3: is that like eight chan is the creepy kid harassing 500 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 3: the popular girl, right. 501 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: I mean it is wild that there was a time 502 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: where Facebook was a hot girl. 503 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 3: Yes, this is a wildly different time, right. 504 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: The blob from the end of the substance is how 505 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: I think of Facebook now. 506 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, this was a very different period of time. Yeah, 507 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: but yeah, so we do that, and these kids on 508 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 3: eight chan find it. And they don't go after the 509 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: writer of the episode of the sketch, who was a man. 510 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 3: They don't go after the director I think it might 511 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: have had him Ganzer, but who was a guy. They 512 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 3: go after the girl playing Facebook, and they're like mailing 513 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 3: dead animals to her parents' house. They're sending her like 514 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 3: pizzas and death threats and like, and they're chronicling it 515 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 3: all live on Baphomet in like this thread that I 516 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 3: the day it starts, I find the thread and I'm 517 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: like archiving and clicking out. I wanted to report on it. 518 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 3: I calling David Bell, wanted to start filming a documentary 519 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 3: right then, I'm there. Like his premise, which I think 520 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 3: in retrospect maybe we should have done, would have been 521 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 3: like what is the Internet done to us? Right? But 522 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 3: we didn't in part because it would have directed more 523 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 3: harassment to this young woman, right like that That's why 524 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 3: ultimately it was like no one went, no one said 525 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 3: anything about it. But that is why, you know, in 526 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, my career like really was ignited in a 527 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 3: large way because of my reporting on eight chan during 528 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 3: the christ Church shooting. Well, I was I had been 529 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 3: stalking e I had about once or twice once every 530 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: month or two. I had been going by eight chan 531 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 3: and keeping an eye on how things were developing there. 532 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 3: Ever since twenty fourteen, as a result of guests, right like, 533 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: that's when I really got into looking at a lot 534 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 3: of this stuff. 535 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: Okay, and as you were watching over there, I mean 536 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: like over the course of that like half decade, you know, 537 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 2: during which obviously a lot changes in that half decade. 538 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: I feel like my into this was showing my college 539 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: boyfriend and Anita Sarkisian video and him being like, you're 540 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 2: a fucking idiot. You're like feeling like, oh man, oh, 541 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: our edge Lord comedy is a joke to me, but 542 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 2: you you might actually mean what we're saying, you know 543 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: that kind of shit. When does it really feel like 544 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 2: these communities get empowered and start to escalate? 545 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it started fairly rapidly after that point, 546 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 3: which we know Bannon recognized the promise that these networks had. 547 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 3: When I started looking at them, they reminded me a 548 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: lot of you know, about twenty degrees darker than where 549 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 3: my friends and I had been in high school. Right 550 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 3: near the end of high school. My friends and I 551 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 3: I think, like most kids, I think honestly, like super 552 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: Bad is one of the movies that gets the way 553 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 3: we talked back then best. But like, you know, the 554 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 3: f slur was like every third word out of my 555 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 3: mouth and out of the mouth of like every kid 556 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 3: I knew, right like that is was just incredibly common, right. 557 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: Like most millennials are like recovering Edge Lord's to say, right. 558 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I remember on nine to eleven on something 559 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 3: Awful when one of the first things someone did was 560 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 3: like set the footage of the towers going down to 561 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: yackety sacks right like we were. So I saw, I recognized, 562 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 3: I saw familiarity in the way kids on eight chan 563 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 3: were talking. And what just kept happening every month is 564 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: like the Nazi stuff is like less and less absurdist 565 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 3: nihilist humor and more and more just Nazi stuff. And 566 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 3: it happened very quickly. Perhaps I think it always was 567 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 3: more serious than I had initially recognized. I think maybe 568 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 3: initially I saw it as a little less serious than 569 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 3: it was because it was so familiar, and you know, 570 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 3: I think it says a lot about how social media 571 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 3: traps us at certain ages by trapping us in social 572 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 3: circles and trapping us in patterns of talk and patterns 573 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 3: of like in mimetic patterns that can lock us at 574 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 3: periods of development, because you know, my friends and I 575 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 3: stopped talking that way very quickly after high school, because 576 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 3: we got out into the world and we made more 577 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: friends who like wouldn't stand for that shit and realize like, oh, 578 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 3: you actually don't talk like that. That's actually fucked up. 579 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: You know. 580 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 3: And I think it's harder for that to happen to 581 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 3: not everyone, but a lot of people it is easier 582 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 3: to fall into a loop. And some of this is 583 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 3: very intentional. Some of this is just some of these 584 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 3: different right wing you know, Nazi organizations realized the promise 585 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 3: that social media held for locking people into these loops. 586 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 3: But you know, whatever you want to look at it, 587 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 3: the loops exist. 588 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: I think a lot about how the role of like 589 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 2: ironic humor in the twenty tens kind of plays into this. 590 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: But again, it feels like at every stage of this, 591 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: or at least the way I see it, let me 592 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: know if you feel differently. Every time there's an escalation, 593 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 2: some people leave, and then other people double down and 594 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 2: get even more involved in the community and pull more 595 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 2: people in. You've written really cogently about how this like 596 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: escalation of it starts as a joke and becomes real 597 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 2: continued and at this point, I mean, is there any 598 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: spaces where it's still being treated as a joke at 599 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: this point? 600 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 3: I don't know that it ever really was. I think 601 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 3: that there are. What you do see is a calving 602 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 3: off where the extremists get more extreme and less welcome elsewhere, right, 603 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 3: And you also see you see folks who had been 604 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 3: using someone who had been using some of that language 605 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 3: who had been yet edgelrds get like kind of adopting 606 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: more like you know, quote unquote woke language in part 607 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 3: to differentiate themselves from like the bigotry online. Right That's 608 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 3: the that's part of the story of partisanship. I'm not 609 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 3: saying that as a way to say, like, and so 610 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 3: the wokes are just as responsible for everything getting so divided. 611 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 3: I'm saying it's like a natural reaction. You see this 612 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 3: one group of people who used to play games with 613 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 3: and like bullshit with online become Nazis. You don't, you 614 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 3: want to make it very clear, I'm not one of them. 615 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 2: I guess around Trump's first election there was this wave 616 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: of deplatforming of a lot of right wing and I 617 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 2: guess you could classify them as manisphere to some extent influencers, 618 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: and that I mean, at least I remember being positive 619 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 2: as like, well we've deplatformed them, Yeah, problems solved or 620 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: a lot of the you know, like rhetoric I was 621 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: engaging with during the Me Too movement was like we 622 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: just got have to get these guys away from us 623 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 2: and like out of these spaces, which was effective to 624 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 2: some point, but also they did not disappear into dust, 625 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: and a lot of them sort of doubled down. I 626 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: guess I'm curious of your feeling of that period of time, 627 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: of the time where there was this deplatforming movement. What 628 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: did this space learn from that? 629 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 3: I mean, for one thing, to platforming never happened on 630 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 3: a significant coach and scale right like it it's a 631 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 3: little bit off, I think to say that, like the 632 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: platforming failed because like, well, we didn't do. 633 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 2: It right, right, Like was it ever even possible it did? 634 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 3: The individuals had their reach decreased for a while right 635 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 3: right now. Also, you know, one of the things is that, 636 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 3: like these are live conflicts. Alex Jones saw his reach collapse, 637 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 3: He lost a lot of money, and a lot of 638 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 3: people on the right readopted him and brought him closer 639 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 3: than he had been to folks who had power and 640 00:35:53,719 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 3: more kind of mainstream appeal, guys like Tucker Carlson, because that, 641 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 3: like that was what they saw is the smart direction 642 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 3: in the fight. Right, So it's not good enough. You 643 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 3: can never you can never just deploy a tool like 644 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,439 Speaker 3: the platforming once and say well we did it, Joe, 645 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 3: you know, we're done, right, like they are, there's going 646 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 3: to be a counter move, and the counter moves against 647 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 3: guys like Jones number one, they all came too late, right. 648 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 3: Part of it is that could by the time Alex 649 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 3: Jones started getting deplatformed, he was so embedded in the 650 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 3: culture and so influential. You know, I don't know that 651 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 3: like any of the kind of airsats deplatforming, you know, 652 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 3: strategies that were adopted, could have really stopped him from 653 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 3: being someone whose voice mattered, right, Like, that's just a 654 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 3: reality of the situation. Some of it is that like 655 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 3: if you just kind of let this shit go on 656 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 3: for a while, it metastasizes until the point that it's terminal. 657 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 3: And ironically, I think there's a chance that like Alex 658 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 3: and a lot of these guys who have been more 659 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 3: on the we're going to wind up fighting the left 660 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 3: in the streets side of things have some trouble in 661 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 3: the coming years, as there's a lot less impetus, you know, 662 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 3: for Trump supporters to believe that's happening. But I don't 663 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 3: really know what's going to go down there. If you're 664 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 3: looking back, like what could have been done to have 665 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 3: stopped this, There's only one very clear answer to me, 666 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 3: and it is you need to put in legal consequences 667 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 3: for algorithms working the way they work. That's what should 668 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 3: have been illegal from the beginning, was algorithmically pushing people 669 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 3: towards shit like fucking the Boogaloo boys and militias and 670 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 3: towards like neo nazi, you know, race realist organizations exposing 671 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 3: children to that at scale in order to get engagement 672 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 3: hours and bring in ad revenue. If that had been 673 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 3: illegal from the beginning, if there had been immediate, severe 674 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 3: penalties that hurt the bottom line of these social media companies, 675 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 3: I think we'd be in a different situation now right now. 676 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 3: Would that ever have been that certainly didn't happen, So 677 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 3: would it ever have been politically viable? 678 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 2: I don't know, especially with just how it's still not. 679 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: You know, every algorithm is still extremely opaque. There is 680 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 2: no incentive to indicate how your algorithm works at all. 681 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 2: This previous mid twenty tenh emphasis on we have to 682 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: deradicalize people before it's too late. I don't really see 683 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 2: that conversation happening now, is it because it's just kind 684 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 2: of too late to do that. Do you think that 685 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 2: that is still like a viable route in any way, Uh. 686 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 3: Shit, I don't know. Yeah, I wish I had like 687 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 3: a clear answer to what the solution was. Here. The 688 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 3: best advice I can give people, don't listen to anyone 689 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 3: who is telling you number one, I have a really 690 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 3: clear and obvious solution. And number two, it happens to 691 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 3: comport with what this organization I am in has been 692 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 3: saying we should do all along. Just give us some money. Right, 693 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 3: Be very very not that there aren't like, for example, 694 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 3: I think a lot of the getting out of this 695 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 3: I think is going to I think unions are going 696 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 3: to be a very important part of that story. But 697 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,720 Speaker 3: I also think like unions are also part. 698 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: Of the problem. Right. 699 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 3: You can look at where the teamsters voted, you know, 700 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 3: in this last election. 701 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: Right. 702 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 3: I just be very hesitant of people who come to 703 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 3: you peddling solutions and asking for your money. 704 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: Right. 705 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 3: One thing we should take out of this is that 706 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 3: if the first thing out of anyone's mouth who comes 707 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 3: to you with the solution is so I need a donation. 708 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 3: While Harris raised three times as much as Trump and 709 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 3: look where that got her, don't do that. Be very 710 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 3: careful with who you listen to. If they're if they're 711 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 3: coming to you and saying I have a solution for you, 712 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 3: and it's by a gun. It's donate money to the 713 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 3: Democratic Party. It's this very simple thing, because what takes 714 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 3: us out of this is not going to be simple 715 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 3: and be hesitant to embrace people who come to you 716 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 3: with simple solutions. 717 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 2: Do you see this space continuing to grow? Where do 718 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,479 Speaker 2: you see this sort of evolving into? 719 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 3: Well, that's that's interesting because I you know, some of 720 00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 3: these people right now have evolved into the like repeal 721 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 3: of the nineteen the Amendment. You know, freaks right, women 722 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 3: shouldn't be voting, and Trump just made a woman who's 723 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 3: clearly one of the only people he respects into his 724 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 3: White House chief of staff. And also I don't think 725 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 3: I don't see not that he's not going to put 726 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 3: through a bunch of policies that are bad for women, 727 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 3: but like a lot of women voted for him, so 728 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 3: I don't necessarily see him as being like, well, repealing 729 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 3: the nineteenth Amendment is my number one priority, right, he 730 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 3: likes winning elections, and I do think that a lot 731 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 3: of what he does once the own the Libs high 732 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 3: comes down and they see that they're not going to 733 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 3: get a lot of what they wanted because it's stupid 734 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 3: and because it doesn't benefit Trump to give it to them, 735 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 3: and he had no problem lying to any of them. 736 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 3: Trump is not particularly interested in giving you all of 737 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 3: these crazy things that you want, because like that's never 738 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 3: been his politics. Right, is Trump going to make us 739 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 3: a Catholic fascist state? I don't think Donald Trump gives 740 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 3: a shit about that. I don't think he's really an 741 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 3: into Catholicism, you know. I don't know if that's the 742 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 3: threat model. I think that's more freaks online. I think 743 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 3: that's more Nick Fuintz weirdness. And I think those guys, 744 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 3: you know, there's a chance they get really angry as 745 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 3: a result of, you know, as it becomes clear what 746 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 3: they're going to get and what they're not going to get. 747 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I think in terms of explaining the Manisphere 748 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 3: to people, you say, it's a group of content creators 749 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 3: who are generally aligned by a financial alliance on selling 750 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 3: supplements to make people huge, selling advice on how to 751 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 3: pick up women. Their audience is largely frustrated young men 752 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 3: who think that they are not having all the sex 753 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 3: that they should have, and a lot of them have 754 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 3: gotten into kind of Nazi adjacent racial politics as part 755 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 3: of their general frustration at the things the world hasn't 756 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 3: given them, and they see that their alliance with the 757 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 3: right wing is because the right wing will make things 758 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 3: harder for women and make them more necessary again, you know, 759 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 3: Like I think that's important. Like these guys are very influential. 760 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 3: Millions and millions of people listen to them. It had 761 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 3: an impact on the election, right, Yeah, you. 762 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 2: So much to Robert. I'm pretty sure he has a podcast, 763 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 2: but I don't remember what it's called. Check back with me, 764 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 2: all right, I know that was a lot of information. 765 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 2: I hope you're well. And next week we're going to 766 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 2: close this series out by talking to those affected by it, 767 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,840 Speaker 2: young men who got out of the manisphere and the 768 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 2: people who are targeted by the Manisphere and what if 769 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 2: anything we can do to turn this around. We'll see 770 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 2: you then, and for your moment of fun, let's hold 771 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 2: some space for defying gravity. 772 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: Thank you. 773 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 4: Sixteenth Minute is a production of Pool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. 774 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 4: It is written, posted, and produced by me Janie Lastus. 775 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 4: Our executive producers are Sophie Lickderman and Robert Evans. 776 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 2: The Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. 777 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is 778 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 2: Grant Crater and pet. Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson, 779 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 2: my cat's fleeing Casper, and my pet Rockberg, who will 780 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 2: outlive us all Bye.