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Speaker 1: I wanted to do this podcast because I was hoping

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Speaker 1: to establish a friendship with you, because I thought you'd

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Speaker 1: be really fun to party with.

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Speaker 2: And I'm no longer sure.

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Speaker 1: You seem very serious and kind of I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's very high brow. So anyways, that's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a disappointment. I can deliver on both fronts. Trust that.

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Speaker 3: Hey there, I'm Ed Helms and Welcome to Snafu, the

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Speaker 3: show where I take my guests on a delightful romp

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Speaker 3: through history's biggest screw ups in a courageous and, let's

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Speaker 3: be honest, largely futile attempt to better understand the human condition.

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Speaker 3: My guests today are two of the sharpest, funniest, and

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Speaker 3: most brutally honest voices in tech, business, culture and politics. Individually,

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Speaker 3: their award winning journalists, thought leaders and podcasters hosting fantastic

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Speaker 3: shows like On with Kara Swisher, the prop g Pod

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Speaker 3: and Raging Moderates. But together they co host Pivot, a

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Speaker 3: show that is highly entertaining and profoundly insightful and basically

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Speaker 3: required listening for anyone trying to navigate this insane moment

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Speaker 3: that we find ourselves in. Welcome to Snaffu, Kara Swisher

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Speaker 3: and Scott Galloway.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. You know, Scott is the definition of snaffo.

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Speaker 4: That's you know, how we got started.

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Speaker 2: It was a snaff That's my stage name when I'm

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Speaker 2: a stripper.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I know, it's your porn name.

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Speaker 2: Sna there you go.

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Speaker 6: Well, how do you mean that you got started through

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Speaker 6: a snap?

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Speaker 5: It was a mistake.

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Speaker 4: It was a mistake. We were I was was I've

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Speaker 4: told the story before, but I was host. I was

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Speaker 4: looking for another partner and ran into Scott in Germany,

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Speaker 4: of all places, where he was giving this speech about

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Speaker 4: his trend speech, which is really cool.

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Speaker 5: He had all these.

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Speaker 4: Charts and I was watching it and I kept learning

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Speaker 4: things and I think I know everything obviously because I do,

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Speaker 4: but he kept giving me insights.

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Speaker 5: I was like, oh, that was smart.

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Speaker 4: But he was so obnoxious on stage. He danced around,

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Speaker 4: he showed off his stomach, he did all my manner

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Speaker 4: of things, and the Germans were perplexed. But I was

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Speaker 4: completely entertained and also horrify, and so I went up

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Speaker 4: to him and I said, you really are a jerk,

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Speaker 4: but boy, are you smart? And will you come on

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Speaker 4: my show, which is you know that's the meet cute

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Speaker 4: kind of thing, and he.

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Speaker 6: Did, do you see yourself as a jerk? Or is

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Speaker 6: this a fair characterization?

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Speaker 1: It was my first book, so to get on with

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Speaker 1: Kara was a big deal. But just to finish her story,

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Speaker 1: she called me and said, and Kara gets pretty high

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Speaker 1: profile guest. She said, your episode is, according to our data,

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Speaker 1: the most downloaded episode in our history, and we think

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Speaker 1: it's a mistake, so we want you to come on

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Speaker 1: a second time. That was my favorite part. We're pretty

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Speaker 1: sure it was a mistake, So come on the second time.

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Speaker 1: Fin was Arresta's history.

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Speaker 6: Receivable reason we could?

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Speaker 2: We could?

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Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, it makes sense, yes, see why.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly what I was saying to them. And it

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Speaker 4: was like perplexing. But people seem to like our little

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Speaker 4: Dog and Pony show.

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Speaker 2: I am one of those folks. Uh.

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Speaker 3: And you guys are like a vultron of podcasting because

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Speaker 3: you have your both kicking ass in your own lanes

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Speaker 3: and then you kind of stack up as this giant

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Speaker 3: powerhouse on on Pivot and you're so well informed but

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Speaker 3: also clearly insanely busy.

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Speaker 6: So I have to be dying to ask you this.

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Speaker 3: How do you keep up with the news, Like, what

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Speaker 3: are your news consumption habits?

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Speaker 6: What are your go to sources?

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Speaker 4: Kara, you first, I've lately been using blue Sky and

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Speaker 4: Threads to keep up with news, like I watched them.

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Speaker 4: But I do read the Wall Street Journal, the Washington

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Speaker 4: Post when things are suggested, the New York Times obviously,

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Speaker 4: but I look everywhere. I find news everywhere, weird stories, people,

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Speaker 4: things sent people that sent to me. But I have

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Speaker 4: a pretty strong news diet, and then I watch a

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Speaker 4: lot of TV and etceter try and keep cultural stuff

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Speaker 4: and read people I like right that are really smart,

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Speaker 4: including Scott. I read his stuff that he reads, who

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Speaker 4: writes all the time and no mercy, no malice.

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Speaker 5: But I keep up with it rather actively, and I

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Speaker 5: think Scott does too.

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Speaker 1: So my media go to is the Economists, the BBC

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Speaker 1: and the Financial Times, and all of that is a lie.

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Speaker 2: I get all of my information.

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Speaker 1: I get all of my instormation from Instagram, TikTok, threats

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Speaker 1: and occasionally threads.

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Speaker 2: And I hate to say it, but I don't. I am,

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Speaker 2: I am.

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Speaker 1: My mind is being shaped by algorithms run by psychopaths.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Get all my news from social media now and then

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that way two years ago.

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Speaker 3: I want to get right into today's snafu because it's

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Speaker 3: it's really a doozy, and I think you're going to

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Speaker 3: find some rather strikingly resonant story points here. Today we're

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Speaker 3: going to jump to nineteen nineteen to one of the

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Speaker 3: most insane and shameful chapters in US history, the Palmer Raids.

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Speaker 3: Are either of you familiar with the Palmer Raids?

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Speaker 2: Not?

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Speaker 5: I'm not. There's so much of US history we do

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Speaker 5: not learn.

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Speaker 2: Basically police abuse, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's essentially sort of the nugget. So let's start

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Speaker 3: with a little political context. The US was pulled into

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Speaker 3: World War One in nineteen seventeen, and the national mood

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Speaker 3: was very tense, to say the least. President Woodrow Wilson

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Speaker 3: was worried about internal opposition to the war, so with

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Speaker 3: the help of Congress, he passed two critical laws. First,

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Speaker 3: the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen, meant to stop spies

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Speaker 3: in wartime sabotage, but it quickly became a catch all

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Speaker 3: for just silencing dissent. You could be jailed for criticizing

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Speaker 3: the draft or handing out anti war leaflets. Socialist leader

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Speaker 3: Eugene V. Debs gave a speech questioning the war and

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Speaker 3: got a ten year prison sentence. Next came the Sedition

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Speaker 3: Act of nineteen eighteen, which made it a crime to

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Speaker 3: say anything quote disloyal about the US govern the flag,

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Speaker 3: or the military. Newspapers were shut down, teachers got fired,

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Speaker 3: and ordinary citizens were arrested for nothing more than calling

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Speaker 3: the war a mistake. So obviously this is a bit

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Speaker 3: of a middle finger to the constitution, Carol, Why do

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Speaker 3: we do this? Why do we keep convincing ourselves in

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Speaker 3: scary times that free speech is the problem and that

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Speaker 3: maybe silencing people in banning books will somehow make our

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Speaker 3: problems go.

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Speaker 2: Away, right?

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Speaker 4: I think it was from the very beginning John Adams,

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Speaker 4: wasn't he There was an involvement of another thing. Back

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Speaker 4: then there was whether it suggitious, you know, I think

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Speaker 4: he suited a newspaper man for propaganda or whatever.

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Speaker 5: So it's not a new thing.

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Speaker 6: We do it like we all honestly.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, we always try to find people

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Speaker 4: of dissent. And let me give you one example that

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Speaker 4: people don't know about. But when the Gutenberg Press was created,

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Speaker 4: everyone always associates with the Bible and then the Renaissance,

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Speaker 4: you know scientific books. But the very first book of

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Speaker 4: the of the Gutenberg Ero was a thing called the

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Speaker 4: Hammer of Witches, which was a trecism on women and

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Speaker 4: Satan and witches. And before women did a lot of

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Speaker 4: herbal remedies around Europe, and afterwards they got killed because

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Speaker 4: they linked them with Satan. And there was one example

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Speaker 4: that he used, which is that there's these women that

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Speaker 4: go around and put men's penises in a basket and

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Speaker 4: put it at the top of a tree, steel penises,

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Speaker 4: and we have to stop this at all costs. And

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Speaker 4: there was a story and there a man went up

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Speaker 4: and got a different penis that was bigger. But it's

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Speaker 4: a crazy book, and so and then there were all

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Speaker 4: these laws passed to try to stop people from being dissent.

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Speaker 4: They were either women that were practicing or different, or

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Speaker 4: people that were different, and so there were all these

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Speaker 4: laws passed and they were murdered. Really, so I don't

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Speaker 4: think this is a new thing. It's such a like

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Speaker 4: after the attack on January eleventh, there was those laws

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Speaker 4: passed that were really I think dangerous in the United

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Speaker 4: States out of fear I guess I don't know, Scott,

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Speaker 4: what do you think?

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Speaker 1: If you think about socialism is the pursuit of equality.

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Speaker 1: Liberalism is the pursuit of liberty and certain inalienable rights

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Speaker 1: of birth. Fascism or the juice of fascism, is to

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Speaker 1: convince people, usually for political means, that the enemy is

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Speaker 1: within you. People say Hitler declared war on Poland, he

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Speaker 1: first declared war on his own people. And the most

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Speaker 1: hopeful thing you can take from this NAPU or you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. It's sort of coming back from senior class.

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Speaker 2: Or ap history. By the way, I never took an

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Speaker 2: ap class. That's a lot you didn't.

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Speaker 5: I was like, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: You? I took a Spanish and I literally I got

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Speaker 1: two on the test, so I didn't get credits for it.

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Speaker 1: But I'm a ton of fun at a Mexican restaurant

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Speaker 1: ed mim at el Coyote when we're in La anyways.

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Speaker 1: Don't all biblio techacata.

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Speaker 5: Anyways, So fascism intent of his language.

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Speaker 1: Racism is believing it it's the enemy within and the

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Speaker 1: most hopeful thing we can take a secret police. I

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Speaker 1: think they ran it up and incarcerated ten thousand people,

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Speaker 1: some of them.

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Speaker 6: Get ahead of me. Here we're gonna.

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Speaker 5: He's been googling right now, We're.

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Speaker 6: Going to get there.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: I'm just it's like, right away, right out of the gate,

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Speaker 3: before this even happened, free speech was just sort of

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Speaker 3: thrown under the bus, and it just it is. To

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Speaker 3: Care's point, it's something we just keep returning to. But

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Speaker 3: that's what's hopeful is we've been here before. And I

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Speaker 3: would like to think that America when people when people

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Speaker 3: protest in a civil way, a peaceful protest exercise at

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Speaker 3: the voting boots, similar to the Red Scare where they

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Speaker 3: discredited McCarthy, my guess is they discredit and our democracy

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Speaker 3: came back stronger. So what I tried, the only way

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Speaker 3: I don't go fucking crazy and go from ten milligram

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Speaker 3: edibles to forty every night is recognizing that we are not.

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Speaker 3: It is not the first time America has faced what

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Speaker 3: is going on right now.

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Speaker 2: Amen, except Scott.

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Speaker 4: During that time the Redskinar, so many people's lives were ruined,

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Speaker 4: right and at the same time, by the way, for

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Speaker 4: people that don't understand what was happening there, there was

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Speaker 4: really significant Nazi propaganda that there were things to fear right,

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Speaker 4: like Hamilton Fish and all these different senators. So there

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Speaker 4: is real stuff happening that then gets people to overreact to.

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Speaker 5: The rest of it.

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Speaker 4: And so you can't ignore the real attempts even today

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Speaker 4: by Iran, by China and others to try to fuck

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Speaker 4: up this country. They're actually real and something we should

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Speaker 4: be concerned about.

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Speaker 3: That is spot on, And this is what we're about

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Speaker 3: to dive into, is actually the first what's referred to

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Speaker 3: as the first Red scare, the McCarthy era was the

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Speaker 3: second Red scare. Let's jump ahead now to nineteen nineteen.

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Speaker 3: The wars ended, which sounds great, but the national mood

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Speaker 3: is actually very dark. In fact, America is basically a

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Speaker 3: pressure cooker with the lid barely holding on. Factories that

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Speaker 3: thrived in wartime production are shuddering everywhere. Wages are plunging,

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Speaker 3: prices are soaring. Four million soldiers are limping home, wounded, traumatized,

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Speaker 3: and finding themselves jobless, wondering what the hell they'd fought for.

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Speaker 3: Add to all this, a monstrous pandemic, the Spanish flu

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Speaker 3: is torn through cities and rural communities alike, killing over

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Speaker 3: six hundred and seventy five thousand people, which is more

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Speaker 3: than we lost in the actual war.

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Speaker 6: So the whole country is basically a powder keg.

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Speaker 3: And then a spark from overseas really lit the fuse,

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Speaker 3: and he guesses what that might have been.

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Speaker 6: A memo that was leaked the Bolshevik Revolution. Oh yes, yeah,

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Speaker 6: of course and.

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Speaker 5: Movie.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, here we go.

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Speaker 3: In Russia, Lenin and his followers over through the czar.

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Speaker 3: They executed the royal family and declared the birth of

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Speaker 3: a communist state, a government where the working class held

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Speaker 3: all the state power.

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Speaker 2: In theory, at least.

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Speaker 3: Now, to struggling American workers getting terrible wages and monstrous

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Speaker 3: working conditions, that may have sounded kind of intriguing, like

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Speaker 3: maybe a ray of hope, but obviously to the American elite,

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Speaker 3: the power brokers, the deal makers, it sounded like an

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Speaker 3: existential threat. I see this as basically the collision of

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Speaker 3: two very primal emotions. It's rage versus fear. You have

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Speaker 3: the workers raging about inequality, and then of course elites

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Speaker 3: are afraid of losing their status and their fancy things.

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Speaker 3: Is this dynamic just baked into capitalism or is there

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Speaker 3: a better way that is socialism? Kind of trying to

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Speaker 3: have both both sides.

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Speaker 5: Oh I think.

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Speaker 4: I mean, well, Scott can talk more about this because

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Speaker 4: he talks about sort of the rage.

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Speaker 5: But one of the things I just interviewed Bernie Sanders.

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Speaker 5: It was very good. It was very mad about the oligarchs.

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Speaker 4: He's a book called Fighting Oligarchy, and you know, so

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Speaker 4: I think this is in a new thing, but one

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Speaker 4: of the things that's important to keep in mind is

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Speaker 4: that it's usually preceded by an area where lots of

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Speaker 4: people get really rich, like really really rich, and we're

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Speaker 4: in that and many years ago when this income and

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Speaker 4: equality started to really and then the tech people are

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Speaker 4: the new winners, essentially the tech moguls.

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Speaker 5: When they started to get ahead.

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Speaker 4: I went to one of them and I said, we

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Speaker 4: have a real problem with incoming quality.

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Speaker 5: Could see the numbers.

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Speaker 4: The minimum wage hadn't been rising, and I said, you're

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Speaker 4: either going to have to deal with the inequality and

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Speaker 4: give people a better wage like solve it, or you're

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Speaker 4: going to have to armor plate your tesla. And I

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Speaker 4: looked at him and I realized he wanted to armor

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Speaker 4: plate his tesla.

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Speaker 5: That was okay, Like they thought that they.

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Speaker 4: Had gotten all their money by their own doing and

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Speaker 4: not by help by the government, etc.

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Speaker 5: And they didn't care about people. And you could see that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for the If I were to try and think

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Speaker 1: of one piece of data that explains the epicenter of

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Speaker 1: many of our problems, it would be the following. For

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Speaker 1: the first time in our two hundred and seventy five

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Speaker 1: year history, a thirty year old American isn't doing as

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Speaker 1: well as his or her parents were at thirty, and

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Speaker 1: that not only keeps creates rage and shame among a

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Speaker 1: young group of people who are more likely to pick

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Speaker 1: up guns, specifically young men, it creates rage and shame

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Speaker 1: across the household. The algorithm, or the pattern you're referring to,

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Speaker 1: it plays out over and over in a capitalist society,

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Speaker 1: and it's the following. A group of very talented, very

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Speaker 1: hard working, and very lucky people gather a disproportion amount

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Speaker 1: of assets, and then we tuck ourselves into believing that

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Speaker 1: it is patriotic and not a bad thing to create

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Speaker 1: tax policy, legislative policy, and regulatory captures such that corporations

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Speaker 1: can have their lowest taxes since nineteen thirty nine. Now

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Speaker 1: such at the twenty six wealthiest families in America pan

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Speaker 1: average tax rate of six percent.

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Speaker 2: That is now.

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Speaker 1: The bad news about income and equalities. It always happens.

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Speaker 1: The good news is it's so self correcting. And more

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Speaker 1: bad news, though, is that the means of correction are

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Speaker 1: usually war, famine, or revolution. And I would argue that

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Speaker 1: as revolutions take on new complexion, we're in the midst

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Speaker 1: of a series of small revolutions. Black Lives Matter and

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Speaker 1: the Me Too movement, we're both righteous movements that had real,

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Speaker 1: justifiable opponents. But they weren't going after the sexual harassmer

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Speaker 1: owner of a taco truck. They weren't going after someone

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Speaker 1: who was racist in a small company. They were going

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Speaker 1: after rich people. And at some point, when the bottom

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Speaker 1: fifty two percent of America have the same amount of

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Speaker 1: wealth as Elon Musk, they figure out that the fastest

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Speaker 1: way to double their wealth is to go after that person.

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Speaker 1: And that's where we are. At some point, we are

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Speaker 1: having a series of small revolutions to try and correct

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Speaker 1: income inequality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Heavy, that's a good break Heavy, that's heavy. It's a

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Speaker 6: good breakdown, and people.

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Speaker 5: Are getting it.

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Speaker 4: I'm sort of shocked we haven't had much more of

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Speaker 4: a of a revolution or anger over money.

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Speaker 3: The crazy thing is that back in nineteen nineteen these

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Speaker 3: workers were in like really horrendous conditions and still trying

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Speaker 3: to make it work.

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Speaker 6: But it's sort of it's all relative, right.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't matter, It doesn't matter what, like what the

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Speaker 3: actual conditions might be.

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Speaker 7: It's the sparity itself that is. So that just feels

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Speaker 7: so off. Well, that's a great that's a great point.

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Speaker 7: Just interrupt you because if you there's something to the notion,

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Speaker 7: and this is true, this is a true statement. A

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Speaker 7: middle class person right now is living better than the

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Speaker 7: richest person on the planet one hundred years ago. And

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Speaker 7: middle class Mississippi is our poor est state. It has

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Speaker 7: a higher household income than the UK or Germany or France.

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Speaker 7: So America is actually you could correctly say, a middle

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Speaker 7: class person in the US is thriving and doing really well.

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Speaker 7: But that's not how the human brain works. The human

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Speaker 7: brain sees two hundred and ten times a day that

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Speaker 7: if they're not on a Gulf streamer, don't have a

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Speaker 7: boyfriend with ripped abs, that they're failing. And also they're

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Speaker 7: living with roommates because they the price of a home

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Speaker 7: went from two ninety to four hundred and twenty thousand

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Speaker 7: dollars during COVID because we flushed the market was so

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Speaker 7: much stimulus because me or you or getting less wealthy

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Speaker 7: would be a crime greater than a million people dying.

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Speaker 7: And the natural cycle of redistributing income and destroying capital

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Speaker 7: during crises that seeds economic advantage back from the capital

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Speaker 7: owners to labor. We didn't allow happen. And what was

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Speaker 7: most criminal about it was we use their credit card

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Speaker 7: to pay for our incumbency. So these people, you know,

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Speaker 7: you can understand people say young people are entitled.

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Speaker 2: No they're not.

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Speaker 1: They're entitled to be enraged. And you have just this

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Speaker 1: incredible shifting of economic prosperity, and there reminded several hundred

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Speaker 1: times a day on their phones that they're failing.

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Speaker 2: So try to tell that.

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Speaker 1: It's like the mistake democrats made trying to tell people

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Speaker 1: inflation is not that bad. Well, okay, it feels that

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Speaker 1: bad to me. And I also want to be clear,

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Speaker 1: this is a bipartisan issue. What Trump has effectively done

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Speaker 1: really well is like, okay, Republicans and Republican donors, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to divide up TikTok I'm going to give you

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Speaker 1: ai legislation that makes you richer, and Democrats to a

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Speaker 1: really rich and whole lot of power. There's a really

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable silence, a conspiracy that says, don't get too angry

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Speaker 1: because you're going to make bank if you're a rich Democrat.

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Speaker 1: And one of the most disappointing things about this is

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Speaker 1: good democrats who are in positions of powers have been

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Speaker 1: fucking silent on all of this. Why could stop stop?

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Speaker 1: It hurts so good? My taxes are going down.

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Speaker 5: I would agree. Yeah, absolutely brutal.

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Speaker 4: And also you know it's als often at the expense

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Speaker 4: of the young towards the old, and you know, you

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Speaker 4: see it in Congress where they're you know, antiquated and

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Speaker 4: they're making rules that would benefit the top groups.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'm going to barrel through a big chunk here.

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Speaker 3: Bolshevik revolution has happened, and it's just sort of rippling

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Speaker 3: through America. Strikes were breaking out all over the country,

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Speaker 3: steel workers, coal miners, even the Boston police and newspapers

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Speaker 3: are screaming of red plots and foreign agitators. Senators are

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Speaker 3: thundering about a ed menace. Immigrants from Eastern Europe Southern

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Speaker 3: Italy and Russia are branded un American, and we find

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Speaker 3: ourselves smack in the middle of America's first red scare. Now,

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Speaker 3: while the Communist threat was wildly exaggerated in the press,

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Speaker 3: agitators were still making a lot of noise from the

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Speaker 3: margin's mail. Bombs were sent to some of the most

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Speaker 3: powerful men in America, JP Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, and

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Speaker 3: even Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer, remember that name. Most

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Speaker 3: were intercepted by postal workers. But one summer night in

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Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen, an Italian anarchists named Carlo Valdanocci blew himself

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Speaker 3: up on Palmer's doorstep, badly damaging the house and shattering

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Speaker 3: windows for blocks. It was part of a coordinated attack

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Speaker 3: bombs in eight cities, each accompanied by a flyer that

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Speaker 3: read in part war class war, and you were the

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Speaker 3: first to wage it under the cover of the powerful

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Speaker 3: institutions you call order.

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Speaker 6: This is wild to me.

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Speaker 3: The There was certainly communist sympathy kind of rippling through America,

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Speaker 3: but the actual threat of a full blown revolution.

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Speaker 2: According to most historians.

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Speaker 6: Was greatly exaggerated.

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Speaker 3: What do you think about this moment we're in because

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Speaker 3: we're hearing a lot of chatter about civil war. I

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Speaker 3: feel like sometimes I'm seeing the drum beat in some

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Speaker 3: mainstream conservative news.

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Speaker 5: And I want that they would like that.

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Speaker 6: Is it overblown or does it feel closer or is

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Speaker 6: it sort of.

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't know, you know, I'm in career right now,

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Speaker 4: and the person I was interviewing was like, how can

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Speaker 4: you let people be on National Guard bie on your street?

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Speaker 4: We pushed back martial law here and they overturned the

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Speaker 4: president of Korea. They were like, why are you putting

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Speaker 4: up with that like kind of thing? And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 4: the ones in DC are laying mulch. They're not really right.

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Speaker 4: The ice raids to me is where it all surrounds,

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Speaker 4: which is most people aren't affected by it.

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Speaker 2: I have two thoughts.

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Speaker 1: The first is I wanted to do this podcast because

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Speaker 1: I was hoping to establish a friendship with you, because

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Speaker 1: I thought you'd be really fun to party with. And

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer sure. You seem very serious and kind

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Speaker 1: of I don't know, very highbrow. So anyways, that's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a disappointment. I can deliver on both fronts, Okay.

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Speaker 5: I trust that you need a restraining order call me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, my second second thought, We're actually not that divided.

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Speaker 1: What we have is the most profitable companies in the

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Speaker 1: world that have attached stakeholder value to dividing and polarizing us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, aim into that.

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Speaker 1: If you go out, it sounds like you travel a

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Speaker 1: decent amount. I don't care where you are. You can

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Speaker 1: be in deepest reddest America, you can be in the

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Speaker 1: most overly liberal place. Generally, you're going to find no

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Speaker 1: matter what side of the political spectrum you are, when

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Speaker 1: you meet people, they're lovely. People are friendly, people are nice,

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Speaker 1: people are courteous, people want you to win. And and

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Speaker 1: the biggest tragedy of AI is that it's crawling the

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Speaker 1: online world. It's not crawling the offline world. And America

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Speaker 1: is not as divided as people think. What we have

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Speaker 1: is an administration that wants to take on a series

442
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: of actions that are so upsetting and sometimes divisive. We

443
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: could have a biometric technology and a clipboard and go

444
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: into every business that has undocumented workers and figure out

445
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: a way to vary elegantly and non violently deport them

446
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 1: if that's what we wanted. Of course, if we wanted

447
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 1: to stop, if we went into an organization and said

448
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: you're going to get fined one thousand dollars a day

449
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: for every illegal immigrant here until they leave. They would leave.

450
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: They're not here for our Chick fil a and our

451
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: civil rights. They're here for money and jobs. If the

452
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: jobs dry up, to leave. But instead we send in

453
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: massed secret police. It divides us and really upsets us.

454
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: In addition, forty percent of the SMP by market cap

455
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: is companies that are trying to keep us so engaged

456
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: that we don't leave our phones, or our search bar,

457
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: or our social media platform. And unfortunately, we used to

458
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: think that sex was the number one means of engaging people.

459
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: Sex sells.

460
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: What we found out, or the algorithms found out, unfortunately.

461
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: Is that even better than sex is rage.

462
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: And so they consistently try and convince us that these

463
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: people are bad people and this comment is bad. Let

464
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 1: me elevate this incendiary comment beyond its organic reach because

465
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: it'll piss off people. So we we aren't actually that divided,

466
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: but unfortunately we have connected material wealth to division, and.

467
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 5: These companies that polarized.

468
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 4: Scott was referring to as a phrase I used in

469
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 4: my book, which was enragement equals engagement.

470
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 5: They figured that out right, especially Facebook.

471
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 6: Sometimes primal absolutely, but it works.

472
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 4: It's also but it's also indictive. It's got the addictive

473
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 4: element and the enragement element, and a lot of it

474
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: is started by Bob by the way, it's not started

475
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 4: by people, and I when there's been lots of examples

476
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 4: of that like that, it creates anger and then it

477
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 4: then people like a traffic accident show up. And one

478
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 4: of the things that's important to keep in mind is,

479
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 4: as Scott said, it's in their financial interest to do this. However,

480
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 4: they can keep your attention and you know, for example,

481
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 4: chat Gypt just announced a browser, but among other things,

482
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 4: they also announced you know, they had talked about how

483
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 4: CHATTYPG was going to solve cancer that you know, this

484
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 4: is the marketing of it. Oh, we're going to do this,

485
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 4: We're going to do all these highlighted things. What did

486
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 4: they announce in erotica service? Like, because that's the other

487
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 4: thing that attracts people. They need to make money and

488
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 4: so whatever Mark, Mark Zuckerberger, Sam Altman or any of

489
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 4: them can do to grab onto your brain stem and

490
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 4: hold it as much as you can.

491
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 5: They're going to do.

492
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 3: I love Tristan Harris's race to the bottom of the

493
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 3: brain stem.

494
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 5: Right the lizard brain, and it works.

495
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 3: I want to really get to the juicy stuff. We're

496
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 3: still almost We're still in the setup, but.

497
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 5: Bomb We're not the juicy stuff.

498
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 3: Okay, we got to plow ahead. So now imagine you're

499
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 3: Attorney General Palmer. You're a pillar of the American power structure,

500
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 3: a man of the law, a man who is already

501
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 3: suspicious that radicals might be crawling out of every shadow.

502
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 3: And now your home has been bombed. And how far

503
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 3: would you go to rain this shit in? Well, it

504
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: turns out really damn far. And that is where the

505
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: story of the Palmer raids really begins. So let's be clear.

506
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 3: The bombings were acts of political terror. They're horrific and

507
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: completely indefensible, full stop. Investigating them and bringing the perpetrators

508
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: to justice was a worthy and just goal. But as

509
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: we will soon see, and as is often the case

510
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 3: with government overreach, reasonable and just intentions can very easily

511
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 3: warp into horrendous abuse, where the original crime becomes less

512
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: a wrong to be righted and more an excuse for

513
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: new and far greater injustices. Now, Palmer himself is a

514
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: very interesting guy, and, like all of us, a barrel

515
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 3: of contradictions. He was pro women suffrage and anti child labor,

516
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: which is not exactly going out on a limb of awesomeness,

517
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,239
Speaker 3: but it was a different time and that was a

518
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 3: bit progressive. He was raised as a Quaker with pacifist leanings.

519
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 3: Palmer had actually turned down President Wilson's offer to serve

520
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 3: as Secretary of War, but he wasn't shy about his

521
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 3: own presidential ambitions, and he was well aware that a

522
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 3: few high profile wins as Attorney General could.

523
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 6: Help pave the way.

524
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: So he declared radicals and communists public Enemy number one, which,

525
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 3: to be fair, probably wasn't too hard considering they just

526
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 3: bombed his actual house.

527
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 6: He moved very quickly.

528
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 3: He created a new division within the Justice Department called

529
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 3: the General Intelligence Division, later nicknamed the Radical Division, and

530
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 3: he tapped a twenty four year old Justice Department clerk

531
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 3: to run it.

532
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 6: I'm going to give you two one guess each who

533
00:26:58,880 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 6: this might be.

534
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 5: Again, seems like he's cone Esque, cone Esque, Okay, this.

535
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 6: Is a twenty four year old Jay Edgar Hoover.

536
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 5: Of course, Yeah, that guy.

537
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 3: So this new division's mandate was to gather intelligence on

538
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: radical organizations and their members, and which of course was

539
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 3: a perfect fit for Hoover, who basically fetishized the accumulation

540
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 3: of secrets and data on people.

541
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 5: With the closet cases anyway, sorry.

542
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, he already had a growing reputation as a meticulous

543
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 3: bureaucrat with a strong anti radical ideology. Now with Hoover

544
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 3: at the helm, things really spiraled quickly. That fall, the

545
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: Justice Department began arresting suspected radicals, citing, of course, the

546
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: Espionage Act and the Sedition Act. But on November seventh,

547
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen, the second anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution, which

548
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: was no coincidence, Hoover and Palmer took things to a

549
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: whole new level, launching a coordinated blitz a dozen American cities,

550
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 3: including Chicago, Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Los Angeles, and many others.

551
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: And these raids were brutal. In New York City, agents

552
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 3: stormed a building on East fifteenth Street known as the

553
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 3: Russian People's House, a modest community hub that doubled as

554
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: a union office, cafeteria, and school for recent immigrants. Inside, workers,

555
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 3: teachers and young students were finishing their day as federal

556
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: agents laid siege to the building in a storm of violence.

557
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 3: One journalist described it as quote one of the most

558
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 3: brutal raids ever witnessed in the city. Men, women and

559
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 3: children were beaten and dragged out into the cold. The

560
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: FEDS took two hundred immigrants from the Russian People's House

561
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: that night. Nationwide, the tally varies depending on your source,

562
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 3: but it's safe to say many hundreds and likely over

563
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: one thousand people were arrested that night. Now Here are

564
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: some very disturbing details. Reports from the time indicate that

565
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: the FEDS had very few actual warrants during the raid. Moreover,

566
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: roughly seventy five percent of the those arrested were not

567
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 3: even related to organizations under surveillance, nor had they committed

568
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 3: any crime. They were simply in the wrong place at

569
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 3: the wrong time, and sadly, of course, many couldn't speak

570
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 3: English to defend themselves.

571
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: Now.

572
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: Once captured, the detainees faced a complete breakdown of due process.

573
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: Many were severely beaten, interrogated with torture, and packed into filthy,

574
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: overcrowded cells where they were held for weeks or months

575
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 3: without charges, access to lawyers, or contact with family. What

576
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: began as a legitimate hunt for very real bad guys,

577
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: quickly devolved into a broad system of indiscriminate, lawless abuse.

578
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: At that time, people were relying on newspapers to kind

579
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 3: of learn about these things, and newspapers were, of course

580
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: beholden to some of the major power brokers of the day.

581
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: Now we see videos of ice raids online before the

582
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 3: agents are even back in their cars. Does that kind

583
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: of instant visibility Do you think that enhances accountability or

584
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: does it just feed the noise machine, the outrage machine

585
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: that you're talking about. Are we more informed or just

586
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: more inflamed?

587
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 4: I think it can become like, you know, outrage porn, right,

588
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a version of like staring at it

589
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 4: and also numb you to it.

590
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 5: But you know, all those videos of.

591
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 4: People of color getting beaten by cops didn't seem to

592
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 4: change the equation. Right, we're sort of back where we started.

593
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 4: I mean, ultimately, if you're inundated and flooded with information,

594
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 4: you become numb to average people become numb. That said,

595
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 4: the civil rights movement, I think was changed by a

596
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 4: lot of those photographs and a lot of those videos

597
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 4: of people being attacked by hoses and dogs and stuff

598
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 4: like that. I think that made a difference, but that

599
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 4: was in a wholly different information environment where it was shocking,

600
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 4: Like it was shocking to see that in your information diet,

601
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 4: and you know it takes journalists to do that and

602
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 4: get it out there.

603
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

604
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: I still check X every once in a while, but

605
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: every time I go into X, I'm just.

606
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 6: Flooded with the most violent stuff.

607
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: Well, it's engagement and an example. There's a couple examples,

608
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: and some of it's good, some of it's bad. The

609
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: naked girl running from a napalm bombing or agent orange

610
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: that probably expedited our withdrawal from Vietnam. That imagery is

611
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: incredibly important. We get it faster now, But the problem

612
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: is we pay a huge price for fast, and that

613
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: is slowing it down and fact checking things and deciding

614
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: what's responsible reporting. And traditional media, which is in the business,

615
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: is slowing shit down and having an editorial voice around

616
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: what is worth reporting and not algorithmically elevating beyond its

617
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: organic reacher value. That business is wildly unprofitable in a

618
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: shitty business.

619
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 3: When America sort of weaned itself off of cigarettes, it

620
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 3: was a great victory for the for sort of like

621
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: general health of the population. But now we're in this

622
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 3: situation where so many people, including kids, are ready to

623
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: wean themselves off their phones, but we can't because we

624
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: have to use them for so much stuff. It's like

625
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: if you were trying to quit cigarettes, but you had

626
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: to you had to like use a pack of cigarettes

627
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: to do your online banking.

628
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 4: So they all worked for RJI Reynolds. Remember they all

629
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 4: had a smoke during when.

630
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 6: They worked there.

631
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: We just got through the first wave of the Palmer raids.

632
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: We're about to jump into the second. With the encouragement

633
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: of Palmer. In January of nineteen twenty came the mother

634
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: of all raids. Federal, state, and local agents swept through

635
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: more than thirty cities, arresting between three and ten thousand people,

636
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: again mostly without warrants, and again jail cells overflowed. The

637
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: mistreatment continued in due process eroded even further. Palmer claimed

638
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 3: that these arrests were obviously critical and just the tip

639
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: of the iceberg, that there were three hundred thousand communists

640
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: still out there they needed to chase down. But by now,

641
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: fortunately even his own government was starting to recoil from

642
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: this stuff. Acting Labor Secretary Lewis Post reviewed the deportation

643
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: files and found most of them completely baseless, overturning more

644
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: than seventy percent of the sixteen hundred cases. By spring

645
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 3: of nineteen twenty, the horror stories of beatings and illegal

646
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: detentions were headline news, and the tide was turning against

647
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 3: the Raids. And then came the nail in Palmer's professional coffin.

648
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: He had been warning and using this as justification the

649
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: whole time that on May first, nineteen twenty, the communists

650
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: across the country would rise up, torch cities and topple

651
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 3: the government. So on that day the country braced itself

652
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: like for a revolution. Police nationwide run high alert troops

653
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: were on standby. Headlines were screaming the apocalypse. And then,

654
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 3: of course nothing like zero, no uprisings, no right, just

655
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 3: a traditional May Day with parades and picnics.

656
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 5: The Antifa uprising or the Cara again.

657
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 4: Right, we've had that the caravans headed our way, Antifa

658
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 4: is going to invade my town this and that, you know,

659
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 4: it wasn't last week.

660
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 2: It's supposed to be a Hamas.

661
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 5: Violent criminal hamas.

662
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Moss rally, you know, they try it, They

663
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 4: try to scare people, and then they're wrong. And when

664
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 4: they're wrong, they go, well, it's because we talked about

665
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 4: it that it prevented it.

666
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 6: Well, Palmer's credibility evaporated overnight.

667
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 3: His presidential ambitions collapsed. By Summer, newspapers that once hailed

668
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: him as a patriot were now mocking him. Palmer's grand

669
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 3: crusade had collapsed under the weight of his own paranoia,

670
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 3: and he basically is done for as a as a

671
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 3: political figure, which is a little bit reassuring. I must say, like,

672
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 3: it's nice that to see that credibility built on fear

673
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 3: and panic might actually be quite fragile.

674
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 6: I will say, Trump seems to be proving otherwise.

675
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 4: Well, it's not going to be Trump. It's going to

676
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 4: be Bondie. It's going to be all his minions that

677
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 4: get the shaft. And when this is over, it's not him,

678
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 4: he'll sail away or die.

679
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,479
Speaker 6: You know, Yeah, you're right.

680
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 3: Well, guess who sneaked away from this whole affair, squeaky

681
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 3: clean Hoover.

682
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep.

683
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 3: The Palmer's downfall left zero stink on j Edgar Hoover,

684
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 3: who was truly the organizer of these raids. He would

685
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 3: soon become the head of the Bureau of Investigation, which,

686
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 3: of course would become the Federal Bureau of Investigation, where

687
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 3: Hoover would spend the next half century perfecting the art

688
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: of collecting secrets, intimidating enemies, and rewriting the rules to

689
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 3: suit himself. The Palmer raids faded from headlines, but their

690
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 3: DNA certainly lived on. It re emerged in McCarthyism, in

691
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 3: co intel pro in the Patriot Act, and in basically

692
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 3: every quote emergency measure justified by fear. Enemies come and

693
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: go right, but the playbook stays the same. It's manufacturer panic,

694
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: suspend rights. Call it patriotism.

695
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 5: The only thing is here.

696
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 4: It's a pervasive on steroids media system that's very different.

697
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 4: That's different, and these people, as Scott pointed out, make

698
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 4: money from it.

699
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 3: There are so many parallels obviously to this modern moment.

700
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 3: They were just coming out of a pandemic. We have

701
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 3: COVID right behind us. That the targeting of immigrants, as

702
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 3: Scott was pointing out, the kind of targeting of the other.

703
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: We're not mad at foreign sort of states abroad that

704
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 3: might be threatening us.

705
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 6: We're just mad at ourselves.

706
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 3: Internally, there's a breakdown of due process that we're seeing

707
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 3: in these ice raids, the detainment in poor conditions. We're

708
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 3: seeing Alligator Alcatraz getting a lot of terrible press.

709
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 5: They're so heinous.

710
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 3: But I have to say, I think what's most striking

711
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 3: about the Palmer Rays isn't how much they resemble today,

712
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: it's how much they don't. Because in nineteen nineteen, America's

713
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: paranoia was at least tethered to an idea, right, the

714
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 3: specter of communism, Bolshevism and this global ideology that was

715
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: challenging capitalism. But today there is no grand ideological struggle.

716
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: We're just living through something pettier and I don't know, smaller,

717
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: and it's the weaponization of one man's ego.

718
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: Right.

719
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 3: Trump's not offering like an alternative worldview, where he's just

720
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 3: offering pure, unfiltered grievance as a political identity, that's for sure.

721
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: I think one of the unfortunate things is that we're

722
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: a victim of our own prosperity and blessings. And that

723
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: is back then, people remember the robber barons, World War One,

724
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: the Depression, and so many people that sacrifice so much

725
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: for the country. I mean effectively our generation. You know,

726
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: civil rights, prosperity, they have all gone up into the

727
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: right over the medium and long term for us, and

728
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: our prosperity has been extraordinary, and none of us have

729
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: had to go to war. None of us have really

730
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: had to sacrifice. We haven't served in the same uniform.

731
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: I'm not saying things haven't been hard for special interest groups,

732
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: but generally speaking, things have just there's never been a

733
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: place or a period in history where things got this

734
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: much better, this fast, and we've gotten used to that pattern,

735
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: and we don't acknowledge or or are not willing to

736
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: make the sacrifices, and don't even recognize when all of

737
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: a sudden overturning Roe v. Wade was the first time

738
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 1: I think in history the rights had been taken away

739
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: by the Supreme Court in our country, and we're just

740
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: not used to it and also aren't used to sacrificing

741
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: for it.

742
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 2: We didn't have to go to war.

743
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: I think we forget how many people have sacrificed so

744
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: much to give us the rights we have, and we

745
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: have come to believe that these rights are inalienable and

746
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: no they can be taken away. Since Jpanese families were

747
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: interned in World War Two. I feel like we haven't

748
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: had this sort of existential threat to the Constitution, and

749
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: we're a bit flat footed as to how to deal

750
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,439
Speaker 1: with it, because I mean to summarize my ted talk here,

751
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: we've become fat and happy as it relates to not

752
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: only food and.

753
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: Calories, but to rights.

754
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: We were under the impression America is going to get

755
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: better even if we don't have to, even if we

756
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: continue to not sacrifice for it.

757
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a bit of a silver lining that

758
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 3: emerged that.

759
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: From all of this.

760
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 5: J Edgar Hoover died finally.

761
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: Fifty years later.

762
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 4: Scott always says biology is undefeated.

763
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: That is accurate.

764
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 3: In the wake of the Palmer Rades, we saw the

765
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: emergence of the American Civil Liberties Union, which formed in

766
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty. The ACLU began as a scrappy band of

767
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 3: lawyers and journalists determined to defend speech, due process, and

768
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: together with the National Popular Government League, in May of

769
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty.

770
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 6: They published a remarkable letter which I want to read

771
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 6: to you.

772
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 3: This was written by twelve prominent lawyers of the day,

773
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 3: and it was called the Report upon Illegal practices by

774
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: the United States Department of Justice.

775
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: Here's the letter.

776
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 3: For more than six months, we the undersigned lawyers, whose

777
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 3: sworn duty it is to uphold the Constitution and laws

778
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: of the United States, have seen with growing apprehension the

779
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 3: continued violation of that constitution and breaking of those laws

780
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 3: by the Department of Justice of the United States Government.

781
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: Under the guise of a campaign for the suppression of

782
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 3: radical activities, the Office of the Attorney General, acting by

783
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 3: its local agents throughout the country and giving express instructions

784
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 3: from Washington, has committed continual illegal acts. Wholesale arrests of

785
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 3: both aliens and citizens have been made without warrant or

786
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 3: any process of law. Men and women have been jailed

787
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: and held in communicado without access to friends or council.

788
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 3: Homes have been entered without search warrant, and property seized

789
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 3: and removed. Other property has been wantonly destroyed. In support

790
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 3: of these illegal acts and to create sentiment in its favor,

791
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: the Department of Justice has also constituted itself a propaganda

792
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: bureau and has sent to newspapers and magazines of this

793
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 3: country quantities of material designed to excite public opinion against radicals.

794
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: All at the expense of the government, and outside the

795
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: scope of the Attorney General's duties. We make no argument

796
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 3: in favor of any radical doctrine as such, whether socialist,

797
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: communists or anarchists. None of us belong to any of

798
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 3: those schools of thought. Nor do we now raise any

799
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 3: question as to the constitutional protection of free speech and

800
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 3: free press. We are concerned solely with bringing to the

801
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 3: attention of the American people the utterly illegal acts which

802
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: have been committed by those charged with the highest duty

803
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 3: of enforcing the laws. Acts which have caused widespread suffering

804
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: and unrest, have struck at the foundation of American free institutions,

805
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: and have brought the name of our c into disrepute.

806
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 4: Wow, where are those guys today that should go right

807
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 4: to Pam Bondi from the Bob Bigers and the law

808
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 4: firms that keep and the university presidents and all of

809
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 4: them should be writing letters like this the Justice Department.

810
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 4: But they want their things. Yeah, it is because they

811
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 4: want their gimmes. And we have a coin operated president

812
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 4: who if you put it a coin in you get

813
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 4: what you want out of it or get more. So

814
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 4: you know, it's all about money at in the end.

815
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 4: For this group of people for sure, don't you think, Scott.

816
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, look the delta between I was thinking, I think,

817
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: I think we're older than you had and Care is

818
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: much much older than both of us. But when I

819
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: was a kid, where did you grow up at Atlanta?

820
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 2: Okay, you're in Atlanta.

821
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: My dad's boss had a thunderbird, We had a Torino.

822
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: He had a bigger house, but lived in the same neighborhood.

823
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: They had more money, but not much more money. The

824
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: delta between having money and not and being middle class,

825
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: of which was the pig and the python. It was

826
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: the biggest part of our economy and most people in

827
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: our middle class and the differstwe quote unquote wealthy people.

828
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: Was not that great.

829
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: The incentives are all fucked up here, and we aren't

830
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: rewarding people for being good, you know, good men and

831
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: good Americans.

832
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 4: And writing a letter like that, you aren't going to

833
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 4: see it from these people, and you're definitely not going

834
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 4: to see it from tech people. I mean, I always

835
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 4: use this phrase with Scott and all over the places.

836
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 5: They're so poor.

837
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 4: All they have is money. They don't want to help you,

838
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 4: and they don't care. And they've shown it again and

839
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 4: again by the lack of safety on their platforms, introducing

840
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 4: products that are dangerous and having no strictures because they

841
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 4: paid off our legislators and so they're not This has

842
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 4: got to come from below, Like it's not going to

843
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 4: come from these people.

844
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 5: They will not You.

845
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 4: Will not see a letter like that from any of

846
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 4: them anytime soon.

847
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 3: Well, Kiris sure got Galloway, No, I I this is

848
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: the Yeah, this this kind of this episode.

849
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 5: It is very good.

850
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 6: It's super fun.

851
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: I promise next time I I'll bring the the the silly,

852
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 3: a little more scott for us.

853
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 6: But yeah, this episode was going to.

854
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: Be like hot Ones without helms or something. What I

855
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: was expecting.

856
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: Guy, I don't know.

857
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 6: I I sort of yeah.

858
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 3: I dip back and forth, and for some reason, I

859
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 3: really wanted to like like dig into your brains a

860
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 3: little bit.

861
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that that you came on.

862
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 4: So everybody, get on your inflatable animal suit and get

863
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 4: out there and protest.

864
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 3: That's what I say there, it is, Thanks so much

865
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 3: for coming on.

866
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 2: I hope to see you soon.

867
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: Cheering Snaffoo is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snaffoo Media,

868
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,240
Speaker 3: a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company.

869
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 3: Our post production studio is good Egg Audio. Our executive

870
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: producer are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim,

871
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 3: and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino

872
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 3: and Tory Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our

873
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 3: video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from

874
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 3: Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and

875
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 3: branding by Matt Gosson and The Collected Works. Legal review

876
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 3: from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks

877
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 3: to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at

878
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 3: iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman and Nikki Ator.

879
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 3: While I have you, don't forget to pick up a

880
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 3: copy of my book, Snaffoo, The Definitive Guide to History's

881
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 3: Greatest screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer.

882
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 3: Just go to Snaffoo dashbook dot com.

883
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 6: Thanks for listening, and see you next week.