1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of the fondest 2 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: memories I have from childhood was going through my grandmother's 3 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: cedar chest. I don't know how many of you guys 4 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: remember cedar chest, but my grandmother had two of them. 5 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: She had one that was at the foot of her 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: bed and she had another that was stored away in 7 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: the attic of her home. And it was intriguing to me. 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: I felt like I was on a treasure hunt every 9 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: time I went through these things. And it's not like 10 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: I hadn't seen this stuff before, but every time you 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: open up the lid on this thing, it was almost 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: magical because it transported you back into time. Quilts, keepsakes, 13 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: pressed flowers, and of course images, those images that have 14 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: remained with me for years and years of ancestors long since, 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: that people that had served in the First World War, 16 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: even had an uncle in there that was in the 17 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: Spanish American War, and all of it made me feel 18 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: like I was part of something. But you know, every 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: now and then there are cases that rise to the 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: surface that really give you a chill. They give you 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: a chill in the sense that they frame out a life, 22 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: a life in this case that was cut short, very short. 23 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about a twelve year old boy 24 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: that had been missing, I get this for four years 25 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: and then just by accident, almost a maintenance worker found 26 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: his body in an attic in Buffalo, New York. I'm 27 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Moore, and this is body bags. Dave you 28 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: nobody when today we're talking about a child, Jalen Griffin, 29 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: who you know, was twelve years old, and we have 30 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: to think about you know, you and I discuss family 31 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: and life and all those sorts of things. Where were 32 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: we we were twelve years old? Well, and what's really 33 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: particularly heartbreaking is that there was no way to really 34 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: identify him when they initially found the body. And that 35 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: was the position that the police and certainly by extension, 36 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: the medical examiner found themselves in in this particular case. 37 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: Well, that's what when you think about remains being recovered. 38 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: If it was you or me, we would have a 39 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: lifetime of X rayse dental stuff. I mean, all of 40 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: that would be on record. But we've got a twelve year 41 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: old here without that. I wonder sometimes when they said 42 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: they used dental record is to identify how different it 43 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: is for every child growing up. Some people some children 44 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: still have baby teeth at twelve. 45 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, well others lost. 46 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: Them all when they were eight or nine, ten, whatever, 47 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: you know. 48 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you know, you see these these little 49 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: clips throughout the years about you know, some of the 50 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: royals over the years they spent in these families with 51 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: this genetic mix. There was one child I think that 52 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: was born with a full set of adult teeth, which 53 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: to me is so creepy. Or if you see images 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: of people that have two sets of teeth, yes, it's 55 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: absolutely horrible. 56 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: But there are you gets stuck on YouTube stuff that 57 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: lasts for hours. It's when you see a picture like 58 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: that and it shows somebody's mouth and they got like 59 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: teeth coming out of their palate. 60 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's certainly. But yet 61 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: the upside of that is that, just like with a 62 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: standard dental identification, but you know that that's a unique 63 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: situation to to find yourself in because with teeth, we're 64 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: all unique and people I think that people think that 65 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: even if you get braces, you're going to blend in 66 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: with everybody else, and maybe to a certain degree, they 67 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: are adjustments that occur, but we're all unique. When it 68 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: comes to our teeth, it's almost like a fingerprint to 69 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: a certain degree. In the case of Jalen, when you 70 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: think about his teeth, you have to look back at 71 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: his life, not what you have before you as a 72 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: deceased twelve year old boy. You have to think about, well, 73 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: what occurred in his life and when investigators go to 74 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: dig into his past, and I'm talking about from a 75 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: medical dental perspective, because they're going to have to get 76 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: this child ideed. Remember and let this really sink in. 77 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: Twelve year olds don't walk around with a driver's license 78 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: in their back pocket, which, by the way, is actually 79 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: one of the most unreliable sources of identification. I don't trust. 80 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: I've been burned before. In the case of Jalen, though, 81 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: you would have to go to and I would assume 82 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: that they had done this. You'd have to go to 83 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: a local dentist, try to determine if there are any 84 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: peripheral Remember, his mom's gone. We don't know how much 85 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: involvement his father had in his life, but peripherals, you know, 86 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: aunts cousins did Jayden never go to a dentist, And 87 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: in my experience, what we would do is that many 88 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: times it doesn't even require subpoena. Many times the dentist 89 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: will say when you tell them that you suspect that 90 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: one of their patients is now deceased. You know, I 91 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: don't know about you and your dentist, but you develop 92 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: kind of a relationship with these people. They're digging around 93 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: your mouth, and so I try to be really careful 94 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: when I was talking to dentist and physicians at any 95 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: time in my career, because you don't just walk in 96 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: and say, hey, we think your patient is dead. It's cruel. 97 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: It's cruel to the practitioner. So but back to my 98 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: original point, if you have aist out there, they want 99 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: to get on board. They want to help you get 100 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: this body identified. If it is in fact, they're patient, 101 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: so they would have retrieved. First off, the X rays, 102 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: you know, the paniplex you know, like they put you 103 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: in that thing and it rotates around your head. We 104 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: actually use skull X rays as well, because I don't know, 105 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: people might not know this, but did you know our 106 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: sinuses have very distinctive patterns, and so we can use 107 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: we can use the sinuses in order to arrive at 108 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: a conclusion. 109 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: But also yeah, Okay, you get twelve years, you've got remains. 110 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: We're starting with bones. We're not starting with a child. 111 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 2: We're starting with bones. The remains are found five miles 112 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: from where he lived, right, and they don't. The only 113 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: thing we've been told is that the remains had been 114 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: there for some time, and we don't know. You're starting 115 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 2: from zero. I mean they have kind of an idea. Well, 116 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: we know we had a child that went missing four 117 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 2: years ago, right, I mean what if you didn't have that, 118 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 2: What if you didn't have that part of the story. 119 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: How do you start to identify the remains? How do 120 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: you begin? 121 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: Excellent point. You have this pinpoint out there where you 122 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: look back and you go to first the first place 123 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: you really start is you go to the missing person 124 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: section at the police department, say, do you guys have 125 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: anybody on your list that might fit this description? And 126 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: I know what you're going to say, what description of skeleton? No, 127 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily what I'm saying, because even at the scene, 128 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: we can kind of begin to do an assessment of 129 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: the body to try to determine stature, any kind of 130 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: items that they may have had with them, Because that's 131 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: going to give you kind of an insight. Yeah, the 132 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: clothing itself. When you like, for instance, with a small child, 133 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: all you got to do is look at the labels. 134 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: If the label still exists. Most of the time, believe 135 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: it or not, labels are actually very relient. They're made 136 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: out of different material than say, if you have it 137 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: like a cotton shirt on, they'll they'll last when other 138 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: things are falling apart. Again, my experience doesn't necessarily mean 139 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: that that's everybody's experience. But you look at sizes. Now. 140 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: When I was a little boy, I had to go 141 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: with the husky section. I don't know if you remember 142 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: the husky section in stores, but. 143 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: That was the polite way of saying your kid's fat. 144 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: So I had to go. 145 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: I had to go to the husky section. 146 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: And but you know the side of the brand actually 147 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 2: I know, actually it. 148 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: Is, but not in this sense. So you have to 149 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: go back and look at clothing labels and once you've 150 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of assessed that, and not say that there's not 151 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: adults out there that wear children's clothing, because there are. 152 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: My My wife has a friend of hers that is 153 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: still the same size as she was in high school, 154 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: and she wears a one If you can imagine that 155 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: sometimes she'll go with a tube, but she might have 156 00:08:58,320 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: to get it taken in. And when you see your 157 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: sometimes and she's a grown woman, I mean obviously she's 158 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: she looks like a small child at a distance, but 159 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: she's not. So you can't just assume anything. So but 160 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: that's the basis of science, right. You have to jump 161 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: over these little barriers along the way or jump through 162 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: the hoops to do kind of this exclusionary method methodology 163 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: where you're ticking boxes who could this fit? And once 164 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: that assessment is done at the scene, the body is 165 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: very very carefully removed from the scene because here's the 166 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: problem you run into where a body that has been 167 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: down this long, it's very easy to lose parts. And 168 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: when I say that, like we're assuming that there's skeletal remains, well, 169 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that the skeleton is still completely attached 170 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: to all of the other associated structures, so you can 171 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: actually lose When you think about how complex the hand, 172 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: just a hand alone is. First off, it's a miracle. 173 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: When you see the feet. Oh my gosh, it's so 174 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: complex from a skeletal standpoint, So you want to be 175 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: able to collect everything and when we get a body 176 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: like this back to the more. First off, the clothing, 177 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: as all says, to do the photography and all of 178 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: this before you ever remove the clothing and you lay 179 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: the body out in based upon the skeletal remains that 180 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: you have in its classic anatomical position, and that way 181 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: you can appreciate everything once clothing is removed and all 182 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and you would take photographs of it, 183 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: of the body. But when it comes to the teeth, 184 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: because you've got two goals here. First off, and these 185 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: are actually part of the medical legal mandate. We have 186 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: to determine cause of death, assign a manner death. And 187 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: then people always forget about the third portion of our mandate, 188 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: and that is to get a body identified. That's our 189 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: top three things that we do. So this is right 190 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: up there with saying yeah, they were killed by such 191 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: and such method. Identification is everything because if you can 192 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: pull the thread on identification and find out who this 193 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: person is, you begin to learn about a lot about 194 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: their social history and their interactions with people. If you're 195 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: just walking around blindly not knowing who they are, you 196 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: don't know who they were in contact with. But when 197 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: you get that piece that identification piece. The investigation will 198 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: many times will be supercharged at that point because now 199 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: you can go out to all the peripherals that have 200 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: been in that individual's life. And certainly with Jalen, he's 201 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: twelve years old, so you have to do this dental 202 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: assessment and you would call in an odentologists. Most people 203 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: think about bitemarking. You got to think, we've mentioned this before, 204 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: but bite mark is not what it used to be. 205 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, some courts don't even recognize 206 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: it anymore. But odentologists play a key role when you 207 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: have mass fatalities, you have unidentified bodies. To get these 208 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: bodies identified, and that's what they would have done. You 209 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: get that chart of the suspected person that fits that democrat, 210 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: affect the metrics involved in this particular body, and you 211 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: can narrow it down by looking through the missing persons 212 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: reports that have been filed. There's not going to be 213 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: that many twelve year olds. I mean, they're there, right, 214 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: It's not going to be like an adult that just 215 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: wanders off. 216 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 2: Okay, with dealing with a child's skeleton skeletal remains, are 217 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 2: they obviously different than the remains of a short adult. Yes, yeah, 218 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 2: you would know. 219 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: And here's why. I can tell you right from Jump Street. 220 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: One of the first things you look at that differentiates 221 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: adult skeleton, even a tiny adult, or wear patterns on 222 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: the bones. Wear pattern Yeah, like how much life has 223 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: been lived. Because when you look at you look at 224 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: joints in particular, you think about those. And then we 225 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: have the growth plates as well. 226 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: That's what I was going to ask you, because the sal. 227 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, the epifacial plates you know that you have in 228 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: the knees and all these you know, when we get growing. 229 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: Is that a real thing or is that something we 230 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: made up? No? No, no, no, children really can have 231 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: growing pain. 232 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, And it doesn't matter how much 233 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: baby aster when you throw at it, it's still gonna hurt. 234 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: I got it. 235 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: I know a lot a lot of people that would 236 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: agree with that. My kids, my son would howl in 237 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: pain many times. 238 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: I have to admit that I thought that was bogus. 239 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: No, no, it's real. 240 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: I mean, but I hit it. I didn't. I didn't 241 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: deny it. But when LaDonna would say that about Hannah 242 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 2: in particular, she just having growing pains, and I would 243 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: in my head, I'm going, come on, man, give me Bugs, 244 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: Bunny and Daffy Dug. 245 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: First, Okay, it's truly a real thing, oh man. And no, 246 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: it's not a television show from the eighties. 247 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: When you pray for forgiveness of your thoughts. Boy, that's 248 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: one right there. Because I really did think that was 249 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: just nothing. I thought it was made up. 250 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: It's very it's very real, and the bone is adjusting everything. 251 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: All the attachments are adjusting too, and so that's that's 252 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: a real thing. 253 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: I am so thankful I didn't say it out loud. 254 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 255 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: Would you look for patterns like that? And this extends 256 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: to the teeth as well. And when I teach at 257 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State, I teach my teach a whole section on 258 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: human identification, and I start off by particularly as when 259 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: we we're covering forensic identology, I tell my kids in class, 260 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: take your tongue right now and run it all along 261 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: your teeth and tell me if you can determine what 262 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: is your dominant side of your mouth where you chew 263 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: based upon what you're sensing with your tongue. Now, these 264 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: kids that I teach, many of them are eighteen, nineteen twenty. 265 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: They're not going to have a lot of wear, but 266 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: some people do, like in my mouth at this stage 267 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: in my life, it is very distinctive. I know everybody 268 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: in the audience right now. 269 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 2: Is run a tongue over the teeth, and I know 270 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: exactly what's going on. 271 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you can. You can. Actually there's a sharpness 272 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: to these teeth that have not and worn down. And 273 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: that's a big indicator. You know, when you see teeth 274 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: that have a wear pattern, you're going to know that 275 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: this person has lived a life because they've been chewing 276 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: on a dominant side. You can also get these little 277 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: pathologic manifestations in the teeth as well that come along 278 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: with age. But with a child, let's kind of draw 279 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: the line here with a child when we talk about people, 280 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: there's a couple of terms here. You've got baby teeth. 281 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: We've all heard that term, but Oldzheimer's used to include 282 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: my grandmother's generation would call them milk teeth. But the 283 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: true scientific term is deciduous teeth. And so deciduous means 284 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: it's kind of a non permanence. You have deciduous bowlders. 285 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: If you remember, if you remember the movie Tremors, they 286 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: talk about the deciduous boulders and there and everybody laugh. 287 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: But that's a real thing, and it means that these 288 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: are kind of sitting on the surface. Okay, they're just there, 289 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: and so after a period of time they easily come out. 290 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: I think that everybody can identify with the idea of 291 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: how it felt a pull a tooth. They're scared at first, 292 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: but then you kind of look forward to it. Like 293 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned, there might be money involved with deciduous teeth. 294 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: Baby teeth they're very rounded, but they're not worn, okay, 295 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: but with adult teeth generally they're going to have sharper edges. 296 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: And also there might be a chance that you could 297 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: see restorations. Maybe you've had a cavity, maybe you've cracked 298 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: a tooth. I've got a cracked tooth right now, and 299 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: I can tell you how I cracked it. I still 300 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: remember to this day. I was in the French Quarter 301 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: and we went to the Acme Oyster House and there 302 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: was a whole group of us and we were drinking 303 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: beer and we ordered and they had a special on 304 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: raw oysters, and Dave, we must have had I don't know, 305 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: probably six trays of oysters, and I happened to grab 306 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: an oyster that had a pearl in it and I 307 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: bit into it, and it's my lower bicuspid, my number 308 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: one lower by cuspid that has this. It's the one 309 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: has two points on it. You have the canine that 310 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: we call them wolf teeth, dog teeth, you know, that's 311 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: got the points on them. It's one of my bicuspots. 312 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: And I chipped it in, buddy, let me tell you something. 313 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: I think I screamed like an eight year old girl. 314 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: It hurts so bad. 315 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: But it didn't crack it down the you know, vertically. 316 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: It just chipped it off. But it was very painful. 317 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: And I had that pearl for a while and it 318 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: had and we were talking to I remember distinctly talking 319 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: to the other people in the restaurant, the wait staff, 320 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: and they said, yes, this happens, it does. It's a 321 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: real thing. Plus, you know, I've had a few Dixie 322 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: Bears at that point in time, So I don't know 323 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: if my judgment was the best. Wow, I had little 324 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: or no awareness that's what happens in alcohol. I did 325 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: chip a tooth with that, So that's unique to me though, 326 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: and any restorations, any missing teeth, are unique. And Jalen's case, 327 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: you have to wonder where all of his teeth erupted. 328 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: And remember there's actually you know, he's twelve, so there's 329 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: actually a tooth that is associated with the number twelve. 330 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: It's a twelve year molar. And even though they say 331 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: twelve year, that's not static. Okay, it doesn't mean that, Yes, 332 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: this definitely in the twelfth year of life, that tooth 333 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: is going to erupt, and it's written in stone, it doesn't. 334 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: Those are parameters that you've put on it. So did 335 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: he still have deciduous teeth or had all of his 336 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: adult teeth come in at that moment in time. So 337 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: that's what they would have had to have worked with. 338 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: And obviously, in this case, because they did get Jalen 339 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: Griffin identified through dental records, we know that they had 340 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: to acquire his anti mortem dental records. They would have 341 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: done X rays, they would have had a dentist come 342 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: in and chart the teeth, and then they if they 343 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: were so inclined, they could I don't think they did 344 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: in this in this case, but they could bore down 345 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: into the tooth, particularly into the pulp, and retrieve enough 346 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: sample in there to do DNA. I don't think that 347 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: that was necessary here because you got to twelve year old, 348 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: we've got a twelve year old missing, you got to 349 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: what appears to be. 350 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 2: Because they would start with they had all the flyers 351 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: and everything. 352 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: It was. 353 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: It was a well known case in the area. Though 354 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: it was three and a half years later, there was 355 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: enough public awareness to at least begin there. They didn't 356 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: have to start from zero and try to figure out everything. 357 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: They actually were like, well, it very well could be 358 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: the child that was missing three and a half years ago. 359 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: Let's start there. Yes, and so that actually aided in 360 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: being able to identify him. But they did it with 361 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: dental records. 362 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: Yes, and they did, and thank god they did. Look, 363 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: I'm happy that he went to a dentist at some 364 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: point in tom. I'm happy that they were able to 365 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: do this. You know. Me and the work closure. I 366 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: don't like that word. I think it's it's a BS 367 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: term because you're dismissing people's grief by saying never, no, 368 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: it's never over. But in this case, we do know this. 369 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: A twelve year old was found dead in an attic 370 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: all along Jalen Griffin, twelve years old, Buffalo, New York. 371 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: Just simply by its nature Buffalo is a tough environment. 372 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: You have to be rather resilient to live there to 373 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: begin with. I've had friends that have occupied that space 374 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: up there, have lived there, love it. They're huge Buffalo 375 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: Bills fans. But the one thing that always comes back 376 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: to my memory, Dave, when I think about my friends 377 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: from Buffalo, is that image of these people in the 378 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: parking lot at the Bills games, where they're diving onto 379 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: these plastic tables with no shirts on in the dead 380 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: of wearing. We're not talking about some kind of mild winter. 381 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: We're talking about bone chilling cold. And that's the world 382 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: that they live. They choose to live there now, they 383 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: choose to be in that environment, and it's lovely. It 384 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: is a lovely place in the summertime, you know, you've 385 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: got lush greenery that's everywhere, But buddy, those winters are 386 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: harship there. And I think about Jalen twelve years old, 387 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: and he had grown up in that environment. I bet 388 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: you dollars to donuts he was probably a Bills fan 389 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: more than likely. When I was twelve, I was a 390 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: Saints fan and still remain a Saints fan. So yeah, 391 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 1: I grew up in that age of putting bags over 392 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: our heads and going to the super dome. But this child, 393 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, he's not a child that's grown up with 394 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: a silver spoon in his mouth. And this place that 395 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: he is eventually found. When I'm hearing a lot of 396 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 1: reports about it, and David, it's disturbing to me. I mean, 397 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: it really is. This house is managed by a management 398 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: company that specializes in halfway houses. Now this can be 399 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: halfway houses can mean a lot of things. It can 400 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: be x cons. I think that that's normally what we 401 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: think about, you know, where they're kind of transitioning back 402 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: into life. You can have individuals that are living in 403 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: these dwellings that have substance abuse problems. But you know, 404 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: when you see this house, and I urge anybody to 405 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: go take a look at it, you can see it. 406 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: It looks like it was probably a really beautiful place 407 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: at one time. It's kind of a Victorian style home 408 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: that's got, you know, one of these big peaks on 409 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: it and that sort of thing, and the peak up 410 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: at the very top is the attic is and it's 411 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: one single little window, And you know, I stared at 412 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: it for a long time, thinking that that child had 413 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: been up there for that protracted period of time. How 414 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: was he placed up there, because I have to imagine 415 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: he was placed I guess, you know, you could opine 416 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: that perhaps he went up there and died. I don't know. 417 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: I'm not buying that though as an investigator. But it's 418 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: a very creepy looking place now, and it's broken down 419 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: into like these modules where you've got separate living spaces 420 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: in this gigantic house. And dude, as you know, you 421 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,360 Speaker 1: never know who's going to come and go. And it's 422 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: not just people that are occupying space, it's it's individuals 423 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: that those people have connection with outside of their Of 424 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: the folks that live there, we're talking about family members, 425 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: We're talking about maybe people that have involved in crimes 426 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: in the past that are associated with the residents, people 427 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: that have substance abuse problems, that are visiting friends that 428 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: are there. 429 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 2: There are so many different things, yeah, that it could be, 430 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 2: and eighty percent of them are not good. That's why 431 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 2: these homes tend to These places tend to take up areas. 432 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: And you know, because you've got a big house, usually 433 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: it's in a rundown area, they can sublet it are 434 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: not sublet, but they can subdivide it so that they 435 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: can get more people per room and place them there. 436 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: So companies make money just getting down and Derney that 437 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: the area that we're talking about is historically a beautiful area, 438 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 2: been there for a long time. Buffalo has a lot 439 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: of history. But after Jalen Griffin went missing, Joe, they 440 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: had his picture up on billboards, they had his they 441 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: had flyers, they did all the normal things that you 442 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: do when a child goes missing. They promised rewards for information. 443 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: This child went missing at the age of twelve. His body, 444 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: his remains are found three and a half years later. 445 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: They hold a candlelight vigil to celebrate what would have 446 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 2: been his sixteenth birthday. And what happens gunfire, just letting 447 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: he know. 448 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's mind blowing and mind bending, you know, this 449 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: child and that you know. And by the way, his 450 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: brother had also died of a firearm's injury. 451 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: Three months later, three months after he. 452 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: Was last seen alive. It's a very disturbing kind of 453 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: through line with this. And you know, I got to 454 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: tell you, I was completely unaware of the shooting that 455 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,239 Speaker 1: took place at the vigil. Sometimes you work cases and 456 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: you cover things like this and they're these little exclamation 457 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: points right you find along the way, And I don't 458 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: know if there's anything to them necessarily, but I don't 459 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: necessarily believe in co incidents in this world. And I'm 460 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: really interested in first off, who would do that? Who 461 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: would be that disrespectful during the course of something where 462 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: you've got family and friends that are mourning and remembering. 463 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: Who would do that? I think that that's a big 464 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: question now whether or not that has any bearing on 465 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: Jalen's disappearance. I have no idea, but I do know this. 466 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: I think that this is a fertile field for perhaps 467 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: harm to have come to this child. And also we 468 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: have to think about going back to the structure itself. 469 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: Who had opportunity access knowledge of this dwelling, because you 470 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: know and I know that anytime someone buys an old 471 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: home like this, it's never going to be the original 472 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: Inside it will be chopped up, cut up. There will 473 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: be false walls that have been placed up to create 474 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: more space. And when you think about how would an 475 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: individual know that would place a body inside of the swelling? 476 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: How would they know how to navigate this environment. It's 477 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: not like you're going to walk in off the street 478 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: and say, hey, you know, I got a dead body, 479 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: a twelve year old boy. Let's see. I think I'll 480 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: choose this house, and maybe or maybe not it has 481 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: an attic. I don't know. I'm going to run the 482 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: risk of carrying his remains up there and depositing them 483 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: in the attic because I'm going to have to pass 484 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: by people in order to get up the staircase. Now, 485 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: maybe the occupants in the house were to the point 486 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: where I don't see nothing, I don't want to talk 487 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: about nothing. You go on, you do you, I'll do me. 488 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: You know, that kind of attitude where they don't get involved. 489 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: I have no idea. And again that's one of the 490 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: problems it's fit that the police are facing. We're talking 491 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: three and a half to four years down range from 492 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: when he was lasting alive. How are you going to 493 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: go back out and find the people that were living there? 494 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: Take Sergeant Schultz out of the equation for just a minute, 495 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 2: and depending on what kind of a halfway house, you know, 496 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 2: running people in and out of there, they had to 497 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: have somebody that was managing the facility, somebody that was 498 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: living there as the caretaker. Because you don't just put 499 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: people in, whether it's recovery, second chance transition from you 500 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 2: know what. Every halfway house has somebody in charge. 501 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: I saw an interview with an interested party. I'll put 502 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: it to you this way. They stated that they had 503 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: been begging for this place to be torn down right 504 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: because so much evil was occurring. By their estimation, at 505 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: this location, there were people that were you know, cars 506 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 1: pulling up all the time, different cars, people going in 507 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: and out, all of this sort of thing. And can 508 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: you imagine trying to raise a family in this area 509 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: on the street and you've got this kind of activity 510 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: specifically at this house. I don't know, Dave. It's certainly 511 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: not compatible with what you would think about creating a 512 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: community in this particular environment to keep it safe for children. 513 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: You know. 514 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 2: Problematic when you look at it, Joe, when you've got 515 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: a place like this and there's a the up we said, 516 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 2: this is a little bit ago. The chief of police 517 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: said the remains had been there for some time. The 518 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: maintenance worker said there was no odor to the remains 519 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: that he found. Now sometime between the time that the 520 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: remains were brought there, and according to the chief of police, 521 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: they had been there for some time, yes, which leads 522 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: me to believe that when the body was placed up there, 523 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: it was a body. It wasn't just the skeletal remains 524 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 2: of a body. So you've got people going in and 525 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: out of this house, a lot of people, a lot 526 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: of contact with the police, a lot of people with 527 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 2: no vested interest in covering up anything. Nobody smelled anything 528 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 2: the decomposition of a body, and nobody smelled anything. 529 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: Cases are coming to mind for me right now as 530 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: you say that, Dave, and I think probably the case 531 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: that jumps to mind the quickest for me, it's probably 532 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: Harmony Montgomery. When that little angel was missing for months 533 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: upon months, actually years, no one had seen her, no 534 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: one knew where she was. But all along you've got 535 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: this monster that was transporting her back and forth in 536 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: a bag and placing her in air vents, in freezers, coolers, 537 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: in the trunk of a car, and no one ever noticed. 538 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: I wonder if there are any other similarities in the 539 00:29:40,320 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: case involving Jalen Griffin. Too many positives I can come 540 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: away with from the case of Jalen Griffin, particularly at 541 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: this point, But if there is one point that I 542 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: think might be positive from a forensic standpoint, I'll use 543 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: one word, one word to sum it up, Dave, and 544 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: that is containment. Containment, and that's a very important point 545 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: here from the perspective of forensics. And you've got a 546 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: young man whose remains are found literally inside of a 547 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: dwelling where it's hoccupot. This is not like what some 548 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: people refer to as like an abandoned home that's a 549 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: shooting gallery where you've got junkies coming in and out. 550 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: It's not a burned out space where no one would 551 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: dare go near it. You're talking about a structure that 552 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: housed fellow human beings in this environment. And I think 553 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: that there are probably a lot more questions here than 554 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: there are actually answers. 555 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: Well, you know, Joe, in my other life, I serve 556 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: in a lot of different ministerial capacities with recovery second chances. 557 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: Transitioning from prison into the regular world. Again, it's not 558 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 2: an easy transition. I'm not gonna lay any kind of 559 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 2: guilt trip on anybody about what happens. Accepting responsibility for 560 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: the situations of our life is the first road to 561 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: step on the road to recovery. In this particular case, 562 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned that the house was not. When 563 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: I first heard the story, I assumed that it was 564 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: going to be a home that was abandoned, that wasn't 565 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 2: being used, and the remains were just found by somebody 566 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 2: who was there to clean it up so they could 567 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: put it on the market or demolish it. That's what 568 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: I thought. But when we found out it was a 569 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: maintenance worker, that this is an active address and has 570 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: been I wanted to share something with you that was 571 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: being reported by local news. There wiv be four So 572 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: the address where twelve year old Jailing Van's body was 573 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 2: found had been the subject of numerous complaints over the years. 574 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: His body wasn't the first to be found there either. 575 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 2: Nine to one one logs revealed a troubled past for 576 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: the address at one O seven Sheffield Avenue in South Buffalo. 577 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: More than one hundred and sixty complaints have been made 578 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: to the police since two thousand and seven, including domestic violence, 579 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: fire and mental health calls, and the discovery of bodies plural. 580 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: According to Buffalo Police, a welfare check in June twenty twenty, 581 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 2: now this is before Jalen Griffin went missing. June twenty 582 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 2: twenty turned up a body at the multi unit house. 583 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: That's a polite way of saying it's a really beautiful 584 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: It would qualify as a mansion if new, but now 585 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: we have divided it up and created four apartment complex 586 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 2: carent departments inside this building. September twenty twenty two call 587 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: resulted in an arrest. They're still trying to get more 588 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 2: information than this local television station is to find you know, 589 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: if a body was actually discovered from that call as well, 590 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: because it appears there might have been. A year after that, 591 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: August twenty twenty three, a body was found in the yard. Again. 592 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: You've got police cruise at the fire cruise at this residence, 593 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: Joe during the time that Jayleen Griffin was missing. Again, 594 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 2: not suggesting for a minute that he has been there 595 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: the entire time, right, but the chief of police said 596 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: the remains had been there for some time. So I'm 597 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 2: wondering will they be able to determine, based on the 598 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,239 Speaker 2: condition of the remains, if Jalen died shortly after he 599 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 2: was last seen or if he died in the recent 600 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: past a year ago. 601 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: Wow, very difficult, very very difficult. Let me kind of 602 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: paint a picture to you what you're going to find 603 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: these remains based upon my experience. When you have bodies. 604 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: Remember I used the term containment just a moment ago, 605 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: and that's important to keep in mind. Traditionally, let's think 606 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: about this. The hottest part of a house is the attic, right, 607 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: because you know, when we were in middle school junior high, 608 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: we're taking physical science. One principle that we learned about 609 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: heat is that it rises, and if you have it's. 610 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: Also something you learn when you become a dad and 611 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: you're looking for some place you can put stuff that's 612 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: out of the way where your children can't get into it, 613 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 2: and you open up that cross space and occasionally you're 614 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: scared by a squirrel or a bat, but you're always 615 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: hit by the stalest, hottest breeze there is in the 616 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 2: history of mankind. 617 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: It is absolutely horrible. And I've had to work in 618 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: an attic and an old home that I had, and 619 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: it was necessary work. It had to be done because 620 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: we had a leak and I really thought I was 621 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: going to die. And of course that's in the Deep South, 622 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: and it was during the summer time, so shame on me. 623 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: But I can tell you this, it's also if it's 624 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: free of leaks, it's also one of the drier spaces 625 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: in the house. And this is why, because anything, if 626 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: it's free of leaks and you don't have water that's 627 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: actually coming in through any of the vents, you know 628 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: how they'll have the vents up in the attic, you 629 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: don't have any water getting in there. Then I'm not 630 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: going to say that it's completely free of any kind 631 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: of humidity, because we know that that's not the case. 632 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: But it is an environment where bodies can have an 633 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: opportunity to literally naturally mummify. And that's something that doesn't 634 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: occur with great frequency, but you do see it, particularly 635 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: in dryer, hot areas. And we could talk all about 636 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: mummies and all that sort of thing, but bodies do 637 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: in fact, and I'm talking about Egyptian mummies or even 638 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: you know some of the mummies that have been found 639 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: which are in marvelous condition down in South America those 640 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: very high altitudes, with the ritual ritual burials that they 641 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: have there almost perfectly preserved. That's the one saving grace 642 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: up there, though, because even though a body is in 643 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: fact mummified, and we don't know if Jalen's is or not, 644 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: however the opportunity is it exists when compared to what 645 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: would have happened if his remains have been found in 646 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: the basement of the home that wet, damp area. It 647 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: promotes decomposition in that area, So you're not going to 648 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: have this preservation of skin perhaps. And I've seen bodies 649 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: that have been down four five years before and you 650 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: still have what would have previously been referred to as 651 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: soft tissue. Of course, it's no longer tissue soft tissue. 652 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: It has a leather like appearance to it. And the 653 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: reason is is that the air is so dry that 654 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: it's sapping all the moisture out of the skin and 655 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 1: the body will literally dry out. Another added bonus here 656 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: is if his body was first off still clothed, that 657 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: adds another layer of protection. And this gets kind of sinister. 658 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: But if his body was cocooned in anything like a blanket, plastic, 659 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: or was it just laid out on the floor, And 660 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: to that point, here's something I'd like to address as well, 661 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: considering the potential population that was moving in and out 662 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: of this environment. And let's just say that you've got 663 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: people that are drug users and they want to try 664 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: to keep their drug usage hidden. What better spot than 665 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: to go into the attic. If you're going to partake 666 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: in any kind of drugs and you want it to 667 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: be hidden, that would be a perfect spot to go to. 668 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: Is that possible when they searched that area up there? 669 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: Did they find any evidence of people moving around in 670 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: that space? Because the one thing you get in attic 671 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: spaces that no one has been into, if there's dust 672 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: deposition on the floor, you can see handprints, you can 673 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: see footprints, shoe prints, you can see all kinds of 674 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: things that have been left behind for years and years 675 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: because you don't have a direct wind blowing over it. 676 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: And I think another part to this also, if Jalen 677 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: has been traumatized in any way, were they able to 678 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: blast light into that area, assuming that it doesn't already 679 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: have some kind of light source up there, and appreciate 680 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: any kind of dried biological evidence like blood, for instance, 681 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: that might be there. It's going to take a very 682 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: keen eye in that environment to process it. And it's 683 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: a difficult environment for crime seen individuals to have to 684 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: work in. If you consider the space, the access space 685 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: you've talked about getting into, the small space that you 686 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: had to go into into attics, that you've had. Now, 687 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: I've been in homes that have the pull downs, you know, 688 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: makes the weird spring noise when you pull it down. 689 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: Everybody's experience that. But I've also been in older homes 690 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: that actually have a door access where it's a full 691 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: sized door and you turn the knob and you pull it. 692 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: My wife always tells the story of her grandmother's house. 693 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: Her grandmother had a really old house with a big attic, 694 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 1: and she was terrified because it had a little door 695 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: that led to the attic and you had to kneel 696 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: down to get into it, and she always imagined like 697 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: monsters coming out of it. So she's still to this 698 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: day terrified of little doors, you know. But I think 699 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: about that, and I think about, well, can the Cromsing 700 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: text get in there? With the equipment that they have, 701 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: are they going to be able to appropriately assess it? 702 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: And then beyond that, when Jalen's remains are removed from 703 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: that environment and they're taken to the medical examiner's office, 704 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: what are they going to be able to appreciate there? Well, 705 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 1: if he still has any semblance of soft tissue, we'll 706 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: just call it that, even if it's dried and mummified, 707 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: will they be able to appreciate any kind of trauma? 708 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: And one of the things I'm thinking about are ligature 709 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: mark on the neck. Perhaps one of my big concerns 710 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: with this child is that he may have been sexually assaulted, 711 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: because I can't imagine for what purpose would you kill 712 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: a twelve year old other than some kind of raging 713 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: sexual desire that you might have, you have some kind 714 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: of proclivity that runs in that direction, perhaps a perpetrator. 715 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: That assessment is going to be very difficult to make, 716 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: I think because of the time even and we're not 717 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: just talking about a rape kit here, We're talking about 718 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: any kind of trauma that he may have, physical trauma 719 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: that he may have sustained, you know, around his bodys 720 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: I think that that would be very difficult. But if 721 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: his clothing is still there, here's the cool thing. You 722 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: might have transfer evidence that would still be there. And 723 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: the one thing I'm thinking about right now, was there 724 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: any hair transfer, because the hair is going to be 725 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: very resilient if it's attached to clothing. Was there anything 726 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: around his body that would give you indication of activity? 727 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: Was he lured into the attic with the promise of 728 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,280 Speaker 1: maybe candy or food or their food containers. Up there 729 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: are their bottles that were left behind. Maybe some adult 730 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: tried to tempt him with alcohol and said, hey, you 731 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: want to drink a beer, I've got beer. You know, 732 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 1: you can come up here. I've got a great space. 733 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: Bring you and your puppy up here. You know. So 734 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: as an investigator, you have to think about all of 735 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 1: these possibilities. But how this case I think could eventually 736 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: be explained and resolved is the police are going to 737 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: have to do their due diligence of digging into the 738 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: past of who occupied those spaces. Can you track them down? 739 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: Can you bring them in and ask some very direct 740 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: questions about that period of time when this young child 741 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: went missing, Because therein are going to rest all of 742 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: your answers. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. 743 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 2: Mm hmm