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Speaker 1: Body dies, but Joseph scotten More. Since I was a

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Speaker 1: small child, I have attended church. Now, I've been a

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Speaker 1: member of many different denominations, as I'm sure some of

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Speaker 1: you have out there. It's been. To say that it's

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Speaker 1: a journey is probably an understatement. However, in my experience,

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Speaker 1: there was something that was consistent all the way through,

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Speaker 1: and that is that I was always taught that on

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Speaker 1: the third Day Christ arose from the grave, and the

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Speaker 1: term that is always applied to that event is the resurrection.

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Speaker 1: I think that we could all agree that that's a

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Speaker 1: seminal event in human history. However, today I want to

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Speaker 1: apply that term to another individual term that he actually

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Speaker 1: went by. And as a matter of fact, many of

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Speaker 1: the people from around the world that were in the

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Speaker 1: same field as a gentleman were referred to as these

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Speaker 1: by these titles. The term is resurrectionists. Isn't that an

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Speaker 1: odd term? Does that mean that this individual himself was resurrected?

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Speaker 1: Oh no, that's not what it meant. For this individual

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Speaker 1: actually went out and opened graves, and he didn't actually

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Speaker 1: resurrect the dead, but he did in fact remove them

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Speaker 1: from their eternal resting spots. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is Body Backs. I'm back together with my buddy

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Speaker 1: Dave mac and I'm telling you I got to tell

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Speaker 1: you my friends. Listen. If it wasn't for Dave, I

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Speaker 1: would not be doing this episode because he has been

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Speaker 1: really jazzed about this about this topic, because it is

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Speaker 1: kind of like Dave day day. You don't really know Dave.

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Speaker 1: Dave's bit quirky, you know, which is cool? You know.

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Speaker 1: That's that's why I digg it.

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Speaker 2: Kirky's a nice way of saying somebody's really weird.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's it's fantastic. Actually, you are a

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Speaker 1: typical Dave. That's why we love you, man. There's never

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Speaker 1: a boring moment with you. And this, these cases that

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today are kind of right

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Speaker 1: in my wheelhouse. I didn't I didn't know that there

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Speaker 1: would necessarily be an interest in this, per se h.

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Speaker 1: But if I'm to use you as my barometer, I'd

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Speaker 1: say that there probably is an interest in this. And

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Speaker 1: and uh, I'll go ahead and say it. We're we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit about grave robbing and

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Speaker 1: the first you know who I first thought of Frankenstein.

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Speaker 1: I did, I did. I thought about Marty Feldlin Frankenstein,

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Speaker 1: and I found out a bit of trope trivia the

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Speaker 1: other day. And I don't know if you've heard this.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw I'm gonna throw out a little a

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Speaker 1: little Young Frankenstein, Young Frankenstein trivia to you. Uh, thank you?

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Speaker 2: Doctor?

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Speaker 1: Did you know that? And I know that you're going

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Speaker 1: to know this. I just know it that Aerosmith got

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Speaker 1: the title for their famous song, the original version, Walked

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Speaker 1: this Way, because they all went to Young Frankenstein and

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Speaker 1: saw the movie and that scene where where I Gore

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Speaker 1: played by Marty Feltman, hands the cane back to Gene

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Speaker 1: Wildern's you know, after he tells him walk this way

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Speaker 1: and he has to kind of hunch over and stumble

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Speaker 1: down the staircase. But you know, I gore that character.

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Speaker 1: In the movie, there's interaction between him and Frankenstein, Doctor Frankenstein, Frankenstein.

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Speaker 1: There's a grave robbing episode, and of course that's where

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Speaker 1: they get the parts for the creature. The creature was

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Speaker 1: not Frankenstein. It was Frankenstein's monster originally when the book

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Speaker 1: was written by Shelley and so you know.

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Speaker 2: But you're saying, did you give me abby somebody?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so parts is parts man as they used

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Speaker 1: to say. Wow, of course we're talking about robbing graves

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Speaker 1: of the how do we say this, the newly buried

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Speaker 1: or the fresh dead.

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Speaker 2: But it's not for the sake of building Frankenstein's monster.

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Speaker 2: It's actually for educational purposes, kind of like Granny's medicinal whiskey.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're finding they're actually finding poor people, you know,

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Speaker 2: those who are indigent and those who have been you know,

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Speaker 2: put to death, although oftentimes I don't know what happens,

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Speaker 2: but looking in history that you know, they would were

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Speaker 2: going to kill these guys and you can have them

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Speaker 2: for science, but they never seem to make it. It's

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Speaker 2: like something would happen to the dead on the way.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's weird stuff that used to happen Joe.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, there really are instances. And of course down

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Speaker 1: here in the South, I think you know, the where

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Speaker 1: the lineage of this, you know, kind of arises from

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Speaker 1: is an event that took place back in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: nine at the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta, Georgia,

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Speaker 1: which by the way, is one of the older medical

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Speaker 1: colleges in the US, and to give you a little insight,

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Speaker 1: it's actually the first location that a hysterectomy was performed,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of fascinating, I think because there are

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Speaker 1: many members in our audience that have had to undergo

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Speaker 1: that procedure. There's been history that has been made there

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Speaker 1: over the years. I don't know that what happened in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine was necessarily something they wanted to be

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Speaker 1: known for, but yet it happened. Workers were working on

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Speaker 1: one of the oldest buildings on campus at the Medical

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Speaker 1: College of Georgia in Augusta, and they happened to stumble

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Speaker 1: upon a large collection of human remains. Of course, skeletal

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Speaker 1: remains is what I'm referring to, and they could see

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Speaker 1: even with the unaided eye. It didn't take a forensic

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Speaker 1: anthropologist to determine this that these remains had been in

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Speaker 1: many cases dismembered or they showed signs of having been dismembered.

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Speaker 1: So when you have a skeletal recovery, particularly if you're

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Speaker 1: talking about a clandestine grave, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: you expect to find is not like, let me see,

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Speaker 1: how can I say this it's not necessarily like a

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Speaker 1: grave that you would come across where that would look

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Speaker 1: like a Halloween skeleton where everything is intact. You know,

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Speaker 1: the elements of skeleton will have come apart and depended

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Speaker 1: upon the ground in which it's settling into. There's a

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Speaker 1: process that's referred to its turbation, and you don't really

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Speaker 1: see it, but the earth actually moves beneath the surface

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Speaker 1: and it's always changing, but the top end kind of

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Speaker 1: stays static, and that's the appearance you get, so and

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Speaker 1: it can be measured probably in millimeters, and it happens

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Speaker 1: over a long period of time. And those slight adjustments

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Speaker 1: beneath the surface can of impact burials that can impact

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Speaker 1: bodies that are down there, and so things shift around.

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Speaker 1: But skeletons don't necessarily are intact, you know, like you

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Speaker 1: have something from Halloween that's hanging out in your yard,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to look like that. But what they

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Speaker 1: were seeing were first off comingled remains, which meant that

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Speaker 1: these remains were from a variety of different bodies. The

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Speaker 1: bodies were in many instances male and female, and they

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Speaker 1: had a great deal of post wartem trauma to the bone,

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Speaker 1: and one of the ways people always ask, you know,

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Speaker 1: how can you tell that a skeletal remain has been

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Speaker 1: traumatized in death when you have no tissue to see

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage and that sort of thing. There's a reactive event

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Speaker 1: that takes place within the bone that you can actually see,

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Speaker 1: you know, even if it's approximates death on the living

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Speaker 1: side as opposed to the you know, those events that

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Speaker 1: occur after death. But anyway, that's the story for another day.

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Speaker 1: But when those workers saw this in nineteen eighty nine,

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Speaker 1: you can imagine it was a head scratcher. And going

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Speaker 1: back to the dismemberment Dave, that adds another layer of

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Speaker 1: horror to this.

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Speaker 2: Right, you're seeing bones. This is like going through a

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Speaker 2: really bad Halloween haunted house, you got it. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: would think they're fake. I would think Joe, you know what,

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Speaker 2: Joe and those guys in friends that are messing with us,

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Speaker 2: that's what they're doing. These are all That's what I'd

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Speaker 2: be telling people, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's something clinically. I think it's because of

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Speaker 1: the location day when, because even these workers have an

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Speaker 1: awareness that there's people walking all over this campus and

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Speaker 1: I've been to this campus. They're walking all over the

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Speaker 1: place in white lab coats and scrubs, and you know

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Speaker 1: what they're studying here, They're studying medicine. And when you

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Speaker 1: get into this area, you know, I'm really wondering. I'd

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Speaker 1: love to be able to interview like some of the

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Speaker 1: workers that were there discovered this, you know, the first

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Speaker 1: person to lay eyes on this, because you know, for me,

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Speaker 1: having interviewed many people that find bodies, which are some

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Speaker 1: of the most fascinating stories. You know, how they come

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Speaker 1: across bodies, it's always that one person that says, I

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Speaker 1: really didn't believe what I was seeing. When I first

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Speaker 1: saw it, I thought that, you know, like you said,

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Speaker 1: I thought that it was a fake. I thought that

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Speaker 1: it was something that was just there to scare people.

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Speaker 1: But then I approached and I noticed. You know, they'll

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Speaker 1: say things like then the smell hit me, or I

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Speaker 1: saw what I could have sworn was blood. Are in

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Speaker 1: the case of a bone, they their default position with

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Speaker 1: most people that I've encountered that find skeletal remains, Dave,

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Speaker 1: you know what they always say, I thought I thought

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Speaker 1: it was a deer. I thought it was a dog,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I think in the human brain, most

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Speaker 1: of us don't want to come to grips with well,

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Speaker 1: you know what, man, Every now and then you're going

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Speaker 1: to come across a human remain that's exposed out there,

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Speaker 1: and and so this is you know, it's quite a

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Speaker 1: fascinating dynamic here, Dave.

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Speaker 2: I'm just, as you say, fascinated by the people who

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Speaker 2: discovered it and what kind of damage it did to

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Speaker 2: their psyche. You know, that's not we could actually probably get.

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Speaker 2: We need to get Bethany Marshall and a couple of

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Speaker 2: the other psychs from Nancy Gracie Show and just line

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Speaker 2: a couple of these cats up and say what happened

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Speaker 2: that day and what have you seen since then? Like

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Speaker 2: did you watch, you know, any of the old Halloween

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Speaker 2: movies and had skeletons? Do you freak out at that now?

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Speaker 2: Because I still haven't quite got past that's the idea

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Speaker 2: that we as a people didn't have a way to

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Speaker 2: actually study the human body firsthand without breaking the law

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Speaker 2: to do it. That's something that just amazes me, Joe,

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Speaker 2: And that's what we're doing the show about. Because when

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Speaker 2: Joe sends me this article, okay about this huge find.

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Speaker 1: From Atless Obscura, is my favorite sources. By the way,

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Speaker 1: if you've never read Atlas obscura's pretty fascinating stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the like it's the OSQ of of Medicine

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Speaker 2: Obscure Sports Quarterly. But on ESPN a the O show,

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Speaker 2: they had bones throwing contest. You know, that's the kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff I expect to see when you have a

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Speaker 2: bunch of bones that just show up in a building.

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Speaker 2: But after you get past all the ideas of why

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Speaker 2: and okay, it's a medical building, but still don't the

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Speaker 2: dead deserve to be buried, don't they don't they deserve

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Speaker 2: to be better than this? These are real bones? Is

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Speaker 2: this only how we and if they have been used

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Speaker 2: in some kind of a medical learning experience, shouldn't they

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Speaker 2: be given a nicer send off than just thrown into

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Speaker 2: the bottom of a well or a building or you know,

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Speaker 2: just tossed away like trash.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you would think so that that would be the case.

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Speaker 1: But you have to understand, here's that word again. This

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Speaker 1: is a clandestine event because it was against the law,

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Speaker 1: and it had been against the law for forever as

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Speaker 1: far as people could remember. And this is something that

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Speaker 1: kind of it was the law in Europe, not to

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Speaker 1: do this. And so when the US was settled, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of things, it transferred over and in Georgia

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Speaker 1: in particular, you know, they the school in Augusta opened

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Speaker 1: like in the mid eighteen twenties. All right, we're really

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Speaker 1: pre pre Civil War. We're talking Andrew Jackson era time.

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Speaker 1: That's when this thing was established. And Dave, it was

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Speaker 1: that law prohibiting people from using human cadavers for dissection

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Speaker 1: did not come off the books until the mid eighteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: And so you've got doctors that are being trained at

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Speaker 1: this location and dude, they've never done a dissection. They've

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Speaker 1: never done a dissection on a human remain, and so

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Speaker 1: it's it's startling. You know, how how is it that,

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Speaker 1: you know, you think about somebody that's called a surgeon

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Speaker 1: can actually try to facilitate the healing of somebody without

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Speaker 1: actually knowing what the anatomy is. Now you you have

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Speaker 1: detailed drawings that have occurred over the year, even years,

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Speaker 1: even Da Vinci had rendered, you know, beautiful anatomical drawings

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Speaker 1: of human human remains. But it's just the fact that

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Speaker 1: you're going to go into this environment, open the environment,

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Speaker 1: opened the body up on a living patient and you

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Speaker 1: don't know what you're going to be looking for. Interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: just down the road from Augusta Crawford Long back in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen forties. He's the first guy that ever used anesthesia.

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Speaker 1: He's the guy that first to play. And literally this

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Speaker 1: is in like a little tiny town in Georgia. They've

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Speaker 1: got the Crawford Long Museum there. I urge anybody that

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Speaker 1: they have an opportunity to go and check this place out.

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Speaker 1: And he used ether on a guy to remove a tumor. Now,

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Speaker 1: ether is very unstable, it's not something we would use today.

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Speaker 1: But before that, you know, people had to endure surgery

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Speaker 1: without any kind of anesthesia whatsoever. So we're in a

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Speaker 1: real there's a real learning curve here. But what physicians

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Speaker 1: are medical students knew back then was that they needed

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Speaker 1: they needed someone that could facilitate getting bodies for them,

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Speaker 1: and they might have to do it by oil lamp,

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Speaker 1: a whale oil lamp or a candle to do these

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Speaker 1: dissections in the middle of the night, and so that

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Speaker 1: they could understand anatomy and listen, I'll tell you this,

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Speaker 1: everybody knew what was going on because the medical students

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Speaker 1: had all been through the program. The faculty were there.

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Speaker 1: It's like the old Monty pythonline, wink, wink, nod, nod,

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Speaker 1: A nod is just as good as a wink. Dave.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something right now that I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I've ever told anyone else. I was

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Speaker 1: actually involved when I was at the Medical Examiner's office

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta of having to go back and retrieve human

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Speaker 1: remains from a former employee. This guy had been dismissed

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Speaker 1: from the office and we were missing two human skulls,

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Speaker 1: and myself and another investigator showed up at his house

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Speaker 1: and said, look, we don't want to involve anybody else

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Speaker 1: in this, but we believe that you're in possession of

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Speaker 1: two skulls that we had that were unknown individuals that

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Speaker 1: we had in boxes that were back in an area

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Speaker 1: where we keep box skeletal remains. And sure enough, he

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Speaker 1: produced them. Of course, it was under thread of arrest

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Speaker 1: and being tried and all those sorts of things, but

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Speaker 1: he gave them back to us. This was in days,

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Speaker 1: within days of him being fired for other issues. And

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Speaker 1: it's not like that sort of thing doesn't happen. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, Dave, if you remember I think

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Speaker 1: it was. Yeah, it was in maybe late twenty two

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Speaker 1: or early twenty three. Remember we covered a case out

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Speaker 1: of Colorado here on body Bags about a funeral home

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Speaker 1: proprietor in Colorado who had been dissecting Hess was the

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Speaker 1: last name. She had been dissecting human remains and selling

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Speaker 1: body parts to whoever would buy them. And it was

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Speaker 1: a chilling story, you know, because you've got family members

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Speaker 1: there that I think are expecting if I remember qrrectly,

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Speaker 1: they were expecting cremains. But yet she was taking off

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Speaker 1: body parts and selling those body parts to individuals who

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Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, she would sell them internationally as well.

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Speaker 2: And we had a couple of different stories about that

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Speaker 2: same time. If you remember a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 2: where we had different members of the funeral director's community

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Speaker 2: that were not doing away with They were not doing

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Speaker 2: cremations or they weren't burying. There were bodies just piling

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Speaker 2: up in all sorts of areas. And that's a horrible

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Speaker 2: thing that takes place even now, But at least then

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Speaker 2: the bones were talking about in this particular story today,

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Speaker 2: they actually there was a reason for them being there.

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Speaker 2: There was a purpose, and there was an entire industry

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Speaker 2: built around these medical colleges that it's a shame, it's

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Speaker 2: a stain. But I don't know who should take responsibility

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Speaker 2: for it because with I Joe, I'm thinking as soon

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Speaker 2: as you had the first medical school, you had the

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Speaker 2: first cadaver we could look at, you had the first

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Speaker 2: set of bones, you know, you would have somebody who

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Speaker 2: was into the medical fraternity would say, when I die,

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Speaker 2: you guys can take a look at what's inside. Cut

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Speaker 2: me open.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And the people.

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Speaker 2: That sounded really graphic and bad, but I don't mean

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Speaker 2: that way.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, this is this is body backs. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's what we talk about.

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Speaker 2: It just seems like they would do that though, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah you would think so. And there are people

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Speaker 1: that donate their bodies to you. You might not know this.

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Speaker 1: There are people that actually donate their bodies to the

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Speaker 1: body farm at UT. Now you want to talk about

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Speaker 1: something that's I guess it's needed, but it's really gruesome

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Speaker 1: because you know these bodies will be taken up there

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Speaker 1: and use for decay studies. Now you're laying out in

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Speaker 1: the or not you, but you know, the people that

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Speaker 1: donate their bodies are laid out in an open area

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Speaker 1: and exposed to the elements. This does I've actually had

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Speaker 1: people contact me to wanting I was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: work for ut you know, you need to reach out

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Speaker 1: to them, and it's like they're curious about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: could this be done? But all the way back in

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Speaker 1: prior to the Civil War, there was a gentleman by

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Speaker 1: the name of Gradison Harris and he was a slave.

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Speaker 1: And here's an interesting little factoid. He was a Gulla person.

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Speaker 1: And I know that you've got family members that live

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Speaker 1: off of off of Ocracoke. Well, he's a Gulla person,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of in the coastal area of South Carolina.

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Speaker 1: They speak a very yeah, they speak a very distinctive

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Speaker 1: uh language.

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Speaker 2: There the dialect that you don't find anywhere else, you know.

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Speaker 1: It is, it's very unique. It's kind of like my

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Speaker 1: ancestors in South Louisiana. I got a whole portion of

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Speaker 1: my family that speaks Cajun fringe and so. But he

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Speaker 1: came from that environment. And here's what's really interesting when

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Speaker 1: he and I hate saying this about anybody, but when

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Speaker 1: he was purchased, he was not purchased by a single

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Speaker 1: individual day. He was actually purchased by the medical college.

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Speaker 1: He was owned, and this is the way it's written.

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Speaker 1: He was owned by the faculty, and he developed quite

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Speaker 1: the reputation. He became what was known as a resurrectionist.

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Speaker 1: Now resurrectionist, it's not like this is an isolated event

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Speaker 1: relative to Georgia. Okay, they were everywhere, but he made

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Speaker 1: quite the name for himself and he would appear in

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Speaker 1: group photos at graduation for the students. They knew that

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Speaker 1: he was the person that could go out and acquire remains.

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Speaker 1: He primarily focused on slave burials because no one was

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Speaker 1: watching slave graves and there was a huge mortality issue

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Speaker 1: there where people would die very young, and you know

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Speaker 1: cadavers now many times are people that are much older. Well,

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Speaker 1: back then, people didn't live to what we now consider

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Speaker 1: a ripe old age. Back then, you'd have people that

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Speaker 1: would pass way their mid forties and you'd have children

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Speaker 1: that would a good life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't mids the old man.

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Speaker 1: Mid forties, yeah, mid forties man. And so he would

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Speaker 1: go out at the behest of the medical college. And

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Speaker 1: let me just give you an idea. Did you know

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Speaker 1: that it was illegal to teach a slave or enslaved

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Speaker 1: person to read and write, but there was an exception

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Speaker 1: made for Gratison because he would have to read the

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Speaker 1: obituaries and just lock into that just for a second.

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Speaker 1: So he would read the obituaries in the paper so

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Speaker 1: that he could he could stay up to date on

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00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: newly buried remains, and that at night he would go out.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that he had assistance that would help him

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Speaker 1: dig these freshly buried people up, pop the graves open,

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Speaker 1: and the slave population back during that time is not

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Speaker 1: going to say anything about it, and they're not going

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Speaker 1: to complain because they know what's going to happen to

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Speaker 1: them if they do. He would remove these bodies and

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Speaker 1: then take them back to the medical school where they

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Speaker 1: would under the cover of darkness be dissected in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night when no one else was around,

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Speaker 1: and these students are there over this cadaver, attempting to learn,

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Speaker 1: and Gratison is probably assisting them with these dissections. Gratison

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Speaker 1: is probably having to clean up after them and then

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Speaker 1: dispose of the bodies. And so there was just an

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Speaker 1: area collective area where it's unclear how they wound up. There.

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Speaker 1: Would he because this was in the basement of the building.

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Speaker 1: Were they doing the dissections in the basement, you know,

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Speaker 1: and then they would just kind of take the cadavers

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Speaker 1: and put them in a big pile, and you know,

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Speaker 1: over a period of time it would render down. The

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Speaker 1: one thing that strikes me here is how would you

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00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: get past the smell? You know? And I know they

381
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: have lime back then and that sort of thing, but lime,

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00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: the presence of lime is not necessarily going to retard

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Speaker 1: or knock down that smell of decomposition to the point

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Speaker 1: where you're not going to appreciate it at all. You're

385
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: walking by a building and you know, people catch a

386
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: whiff there and they're wondering, you know, what in the

387
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: world is going on? And you know, but everybody that

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00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: was in the know, wink wink, not not knew that

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Speaker 1: these dissections were going or taking place down there. And

390
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: so yeah, he became known as a resurrectionist and was

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00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: eventually became a freedman after the Civil War, but continue

392
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Speaker 1: to work at the university for decades afterwards. And actually

393
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: about his.

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Speaker 2: Job is a grave robber. You're not going to be

395
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Speaker 2: able to do that outside of working for the school,

396
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: you know, your occupation unless you become a grave digger,

397
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Speaker 2: you know.

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00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're you're right, unless you're a grave digger,

399
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, but you're a resurrectionist. Interestingly enough, during reconstruction,

400
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: of course, reconstruction failed, he had moved to across the

401
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 1: Augusta River actually into South Carolina and became a judge

402
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: in South Carolina. And when reconstruction failed, they had race

403
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: riots and I think it was Hamburg, I can't remember

404
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: the actual name of the town in South Carolina, and

405
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: it got so bad he left and came back to

406
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: the university, and the students actually kind of reminded him

407
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: that he needed to keep his place, his proper place,

408
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: because they saw him trying to ascend into the professional class,

409
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: and so they referred to him as judge for years

410
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: and years after that, you know, just as a reminder,

411
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: this is who you are. You're a resurrectionist and you're

412
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: working for us. So it's kind of an interesting story.

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00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: But Dave, I think, if I remember correctly, this is

414
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Speaker 1: not the only location that this was occurring.

415
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 2: No, but let me before we move on. Yeah, yeah,

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00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: you've got a resurrectionist to actually, Okay, if you look

417
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 2: at it from the standpoint of continuing education and learning

418
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 2: and helping the living through you examining the dead. I

419
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: get all that, but you would think they would have

420
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: a better plan. Okay, once we got the body, you know,

421
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: and we've done what we're gonna do, you would think

422
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: somebody there at the college level would have a suggestion

423
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 2: as to what to do with these bones that you

424
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: now cannot legally have you should have never had to

425
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: start with. So not one of these educated people had

426
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: any common sense. So the best plan they could come

427
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: up with was, when we're done, we're going to throw

428
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: them on the floor in the basement and we'll cover

429
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: them with some lime and dirt and just leave them there.

430
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something that Yeah? And listen, I lay

431
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: the you know who, I laid the fault fault to

432
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: at this and this is nationwide. I lay the fault

433
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: at the propriety of society and the church because they

434
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: viewed using bodies like this as desecration of the dead,

435
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: and that seems to run contrary to spiritual beliefs actually,

436
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: because if we believe that human body is a vessel,

437
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: and after you've passed on to the other side, then

438
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: what kind of utility does the body have? For you

439
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: at that point in time. And what better utility might

440
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: exist than to learn from the dead and to learn

441
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: from their the anatomical specimens that they could render. How

442
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: many I wonder, Here's here's an interesting question. I wonder

443
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: how many people died. How many people died as a

444
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: direct result of some doctor who had never had any

445
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: kind of anatomical training, and they went in and clipped

446
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: a vessel that if they had and the person bled

447
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: out there was no way to stop the bleeding during

448
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: some kind of surgery. How many of these people died

449
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: as a result of not having any kind of direct

450
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: anatomical training, gross anatomical training. I think that that's a

451
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: worthy question. Yeah, and there's no way to take the

452
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: measure of it.

453
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: Now that you get the guy. Look, don't you have

454
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: a kid that cuts steaks just perfect down at the

455
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: get him and we're going to make him the town

456
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: surgeon because the old one died. He at least knows

457
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: something about cutting beef. Maybe he can help it, you know, right, Well,

458
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: what you're going to do.

459
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know that that's like the origin of

460
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: the barber pole, right, barber's cut hair and they did surgery,

461
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: you know, when you see the red, blue and white

462
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: spinning bark, that was an indication of a surgeon. And

463
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: so they, you know, all things to all people. I guess,

464
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's an interesting I think that

465
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: it's very interesting, you know, kind of following this threat

466
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: through history, how how this evolved as a practice. What's

467
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: amazing is that they still held onto this law in

468
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: the wake of the Civil War, Dave. I've seen pictures

469
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you've ever seen them of it.

470
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: There's one in particular, Matthew Brady, that Matthew Brady took

471
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: at a battlefield I think adjacent to a hospital, and

472
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: it was stacks of limbs and these these limbs had

473
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: been amputated, you know, as a result of you know,

474
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: battle injuries that you know, there was no way to

475
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: salvage the leg. And it seems as though that people

476
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: would have been screaming out at this point in time,

477
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: well literally, but screaming out that we need proper training

478
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: for our physicians. Now. Listen. A lot of these guys,

479
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure, became fantastic surgeons that had to work in

480
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: those field hospitals just with you know, a pair of scissors,

481
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: a scalpel, and of course the infamous saw that you

482
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: can see in any of these old medical kits. It's

483
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: one of the most gruesome you'll ever see. And they

484
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: were doing this on many cases with people that had

485
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: no nasty They didn't have ether on board, particularly in

486
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: the South, they didn't have anything to apply anesthesia with. So,

487
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: you know, in the wake of arguably the most terrific

488
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: human tragedy in our country's history, they're still they still

489
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: have this prohibitive law that's on the books that didn't

490
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: come off the books until like the eighteen eighties in

491
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: Georgia at least. Now you know up in you know,

492
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: like up in Massachusetts, of laws were a bit more

493
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: liberal up there. So prior to this they had they

494
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: had they had made allowances for this. You know, you

495
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: go to places like Harvard for instance, probably Yale, those

496
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: areas up there, and Penn which interestingly enough, is Crawford

497
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: Long actually spent time at Penn University of Pennsylvania. They

498
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: had access to bodies up in those areas and they

499
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: could do these dissections. So I don't know, it's a

500
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: curious thing, you know when I think about it, and

501
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, I take many times. I take for granted

502
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: the time I spent in the morgue, you know, dissecting

503
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: all of his bodies for so many years, and looking

504
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: back through time, I think how many of those physicians,

505
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: young physicians or want to be physicians back then, would

506
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: have died just to have an opportunity that I had,

507
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, opening you know, close to seven thousand bodies

508
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: over the course of my career. They would have loved

509
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: to have had access to that. You see all manner

510
00:32:54,400 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: of things in the morgue, things that most people, particularly

511
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: years ago, it's not quite as morbid as it used

512
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: to be. Probably. I worked with a guy for a

513
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: number of years that was also an autopsy assistant. He

514
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: had been there for years and years, and he had

515
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: a collection that he kept on a shelf in a

516
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: glass mason jar. As a matter of fact, he had

517
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: several of these jars, and when you looked at him,

518
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: when you looked at him, they looked like large marbles.

519
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: Some were small marbles, but they're all black or green

520
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: in color. And then for those that didn't know what

521
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: they were, they would approach it would catch the eye

522
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: as they'd walk up to the shelf, and they would

523
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: look and they discovered after, of course, with a grin,

524
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: he explained to them, those are gallstones. And every autopsy

525
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: that he performed where he found a gallstone in dwelling

526
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: the gallbladder, he would retrieve it, wash it, and keep it.

527
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: It always fascinated me, this idea of retaining things I've

528
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: been in. I think probably the thing that used to

529
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: unnerve me the most. It was an anatomy lab that

530
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: I visited as an undergraduate, and I'd go in there

531
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: regularly and there were babies and glass jars that went

532
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: back decades and decades and decades, and there was something

533
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: about that that just sent a chill up my spine.

534
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: But we have to understand that specimens many times reveal

535
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: things that might not otherwise be revealed. They therein rest

536
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: scientific truth, and sometimes the truth can be actually quite horrific. Dave.

537
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: You know, somebody gets a body, and it doesn't matter

538
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: if you had the backing of the school or not,

539
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: or if you're some person that kills somebody nowadays and decides, well, yeah,

540
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: let me say, let me get out the jigsaw, right.

541
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: You know, what are you going to do with the body? Now?

542
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: What are you going to do? Where where is it

543
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: that you're going to take a body and dump it

544
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: somewhere where no one is going to find it. But

545
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, to uh Chris's credit, they

546
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: didn't find it for a while. I mean, you know

547
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: they it was years later, you know, after all this

548
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: had passed and they've got the limb pit, which they've

549
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: also I saw it also described I think as a well,

550
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure, and yeah, the well of souls,

551
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm thinking lost raders, lost arc But

552
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: you know, you think about that, you think, what are

553
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: you going to what are you going to do with

554
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: the body? This bloody mess that has been torn too

555
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: and literally they are torn a bit. You you ought

556
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: to see a medical cadaver after the kids are done

557
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: with it after a year, and it is after a year. Yeah, yeah,

558
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: they might have it. It depended upon the curriculum. They

559
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 1: might have it beginning in the fall and it will

560
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: go all the way through spring term, or it could

561
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: just be a single term and you're going to have

562
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: multiple kids on one body. It's not like every kid

563
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: gets a body.

564
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: In medical, you see the worst kid in the classes

565
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 2: in the very back and he's getting that foot he's

566
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: the last guy in the class with the foot and

567
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: he gets it and it's like hundred and sixty eight

568
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: bones in the foot. I got four. Excuse me, which

569
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: one is the pinky dough?

570
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: No, no, no, they're they're they're doing the dissection and

571
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: concert with one another. And that's that's one of the

572
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: things that you learn in medical school. You're kind of helping,

573
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, helping one another along through in you know,

574
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: gross anatomy is one of those gateway classes too that

575
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: you take. It's the first class to take in medical school,

576
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: and so it's but it is fascinating, you know, those

577
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: bodies that are anatomical specimens like that, they are properly

578
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: disposed of. They generally go back to their point of

579
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: origin and then they are either returned to the families,

580
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: or they have a burial area that is already preconceived

581
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: at that point time, or the bodies are cremated. But

582
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: not in this case in Virginia, Dave.

583
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: I was looking at when they found the limp. It yeah,

584
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: and it cleared it out. Below it was another capped Well,

585
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: they didn't uncap that one.

586
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: They just let us sit.

587
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: So you and I want to go up and have

588
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: some fun and scare some kids and may nowhere.

589
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: To go jas. I'll pass, I'll pass. I have no

590
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: interest in going there whatsoever. Richmond, I'm sure is a

591
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: fine city, but particularly on that little tour let a

592
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: little jaunt, I have no interest in doing it. But

593
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting. I think that a lot of

594
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: this physicians, and we have to understand this in an

595
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: academic setting. Academics are many times are intellectual vagabonds. They

596
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: travel all over the place, and it's no different in

597
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: the medical community. You think about doctors, physicians that are

598
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: out there practicing day to day. But you know, there

599
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: has to be somebody that educates the physicians, and generally

600
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: they are physicians. And you'll have other people with PhDs

601
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: that are there, you know, teaching pharmacology. You have PhD

602
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: anatomist that are there as well. But for the most part,

603
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: you've got doctors that are crisscrossing the country taking different

604
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: academic positions. They just don't want to practice medicine and

605
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: traditional sense, they want to teach others. And so with

606
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: that said, this knowledge of these resurrectionists would travel everywhere.

607
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: So everywhere that you had a medical school, there was

608
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: probably some form of resurrectionists that was there, and there

609
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: were always be these stories that would come along with it.

610
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: You know, the new faculty member would be there, Oh

611
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: where'd you come from? Well, this guy's at Harvard now

612
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: and he had been he had been trained at Medical

613
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: College of Georgia. And he says, yeah, I was trained

614
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: the Medical College of Georgia. And people are leaning in

615
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: and saying, wait, didn't you guys have this like really wild,

616
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: you know, really wild resurrection is down there? Oh? Yeah, man,

617
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: we had all the bodies we could take at one time.

618
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: We did the dissections. Boy did I ever learn anatomy? Well,

619
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: how do we get our hands on this? And what

620
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: do we have to do? Well that knowledge travels, doesn't it, Dave?

621
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: And you know. The peace to this is this kind

622
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: of unique situation at Harvard, which is arguably, if not

623
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: the oldest, one of the oldest institutions in the United States.

624
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: And they have forever and ever a men had a

625
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: medical school at that location, and they had a similar

626
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: finding up there, didn't they They were they covered a little

627
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: same thing.

628
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: It didn't even shock By the time I got to Harvard.

629
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: It just was like, you know, you're numb to it, yeah,

630
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: because this one. But this here's the weird part about Harvard.

631
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: They have like a it'd be even time to go

632
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: into all of what Harvard has, but they have like

633
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 2: a special name, you know that they give their little

634
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: club back in the day. Because where the other guys use,

635
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: you know, a former slaver, a janitor, Harvard actually has

636
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: a little team and they have certain rules that apply

637
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 2: to them when they're going into you know, they actually

638
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 2: the actually have the rules for when they go in

639
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 2: to steal a body, you know, and they're going to

640
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: do grave robbing, and they make fun and great the

641
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: others who don't do it as good as them, and

642
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: they mock them. And it became a whole thing at

643
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 2: Harvard among these students to form a club to become

644
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: really good grave robbers. And I'm not knocking Harvard by

645
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: any stretch of the imagination. It's just it's so funny

646
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: they could take something there that in every other school

647
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 2: they kind of winking an odd as you said earlier,

648
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 2: and try to avoid and they're they're like broadcast. They

649
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: probably have a newsletter going out every other month, you know,

650
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: and there were recent meetings, but they found a place

651
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: it was that the Harvard's Holding Chapel. This one pops

652
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: up in nineteen ninety nine and a worker is operating

653
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: a mini dozer. All I can tell you can you

654
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 2: imagine this guy. Yeah, he's recently recovered alcoholic, he's sixty

655
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 2: days sober. He's moving the little mini dozer and hit something.

656
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: It's like, what is that? And he moves up a

657
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 2: lott closer and all of a sudden, the bones are coming.

658
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: I know, holy smokes. Yeah, yeah, show me the way

659
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: to go home at that point, you know, because I

660
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: got to tell you I'm heading down to the local pub.

661
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: But even for me, because you know, you think about

662
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 1: and these are average people, right, you know, with average lives.

663
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: They're moving dirt and then all of a sudden, this

664
00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: guy recovers these remains that are Look, when a forensic

665
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: anthropologist gets their hands on this, just like they did

666
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: at Georgia Medical College, they know that these are not

667
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: recent burials because there is a certain patina which is

668
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: kind of that coloration and time markers that have been

669
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: left behind on the bone just by virtue of the

670
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: fact of their exposure and not being treated. You know,

671
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: they're not these remains are not what are referred to

672
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: as casketed remains. They're not protected. Not that casketed remains

673
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 1: are completely protected, but the difference between being in a

674
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: box that's inside of a vault, that's in the ground

675
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: and has a lid on it is there's a world

676
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: of difference between that and finding remains that are essentially

677
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: just kind of buried beneath the surface, are hidden or

678
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: obscured in this manner. The fact that he found anything

679
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: is quite amazing, because you know, you can go to

680
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: the sites of major battlefields where you know, a couple

681
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: of hundred years ago, you're not in the dead were left.

682
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: You're not gonna necessarily find any kind of skeletor it makes.

683
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: You might find a metal button or a buckle or

684
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: something like that. You're generally not gonna find bone charts

685
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: that are left behind unless you really really look. This

686
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 1: guy is driving a skid steer and he comes across

687
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: I guess it's like a skid steer, and he comes

688
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: across these remains, Dave.

689
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: And the thing is is that I was noticing, you know,

690
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,479
Speaker 2: when we were looking at the other stories, and which

691
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: kind of gives you an idea because these we're talking

692
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 2: about it from eight nineteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety nine,

693
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: when these three different things took place. Georgia in eighty nine,

694
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: you had Virginia in ninety four, five years later, and

695
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: then here we go ninety nine at Harvard. At Harvard

696
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: the third place to find cash of bones, and instead

697
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: of getting them out, studying them and doing you know,

698
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: anything like that, they basically looked at it and went, yeah,

699
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: we knew they were there somewhere. Go ahead, and let's

700
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: just let's move this. Go ahead and put the dirt

701
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 2: back over there, and let's dig someplace else. Meanwhile, right

702
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 2: at the other clay, in nineteen ninety eight, the bones

703
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: from the Medical College of Georgia were reinterred in a

704
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: mass grave.

705
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

706
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did what I thought we should do. Look,

707
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: I can joke around about stuff, but at the end,

708
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: there's got to be something here. And that showed me

709
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 2: a little respect.

710
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah it did. And you know, interestingly enough that that

711
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: grave in which they buried those people, they have no

712
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: idea who they are, and they you know, they put

713
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, we we started off talking about the resurrection,

714
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: and it's fitting that, you know, we kind of draw

715
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:50,479
Speaker 1: the curtain here that there's you know, a forward term

716
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: that they put there known but to god, you know

717
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: that that gives you an idea, you know, of the

718
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: number of remains that they found which were significant and

719
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: they were all commingled. And after the forensic anthropologists who

720
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: I actually met at one point in time, that was

721
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: a state anthropologist at the time that was called in

722
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: on this case after her examinations were done, and she

723
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: became quite famous as a result of this case because

724
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: she wrote several academic papers based upon It's one of

725
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: those things as a practitioner, as a forensic anthropologist. I

726
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: don't want to be too flippid about this, but it's

727
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: one of those things that as a professional, it's a

728
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime event. You're not going to find

729
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: like a cachet of bones somewhere. It's generally going to

730
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: be like a single bone. They're going in there and

731
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 1: they're finding huge collection of elements of skeletons, and this

732
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: is like, you could do research on this for years

733
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: and years and years to come from all kinds of

734
00:45:54,400 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: different perspectives. But back to what came of Grandison. When

735
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: Grandison died and he did in fact pass away way

736
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: back in nineteen eleven. And remember he had entered Georgia

737
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: Medical College as a slave that was actually owned by

738
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: the institution and the faculty. He became a freedman and

739
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,720
Speaker 1: continued to work for them for years and years to come. Well,

740
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: you know, he he had robbed so many graves, but

741
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: they were all essentially in what was the Cedar Grove Cemetery.

742
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: And these were African American individuals primarily that had been

743
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: buried there. They were all poor. There were a few

744
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 1: poor whites that were there as well. In an interesting

745
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: turn of events, Gratison, when he passed, was buried in

746
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: Cedar Grove Cemetery as well. And just a few years

747
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: later a great flood took place. The Augusta River breached

748
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: the banks and Cedar Grove Cemetery was no more. And

749
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: to this day they have no idea whatever happened to

750
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: Gratison's remains. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body

751
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: bags