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Speaker 2: The big news in the world of politics, complete and
Speaker 2: total endorsement for speaker Mike Johnson that, according to Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: taking the truth social and changing the course of the day.
Speaker 2: Here we started the day by wondering if Mike Johnson
Speaker 2: had the votes to keep the gavel on Friday when
Speaker 2: the new Congress begins. It appears we may have an
Speaker 2: answer to that question now, and with us at the
Speaker 2: table none other than Denver Riggleman, the former Republican congressman
Speaker 2: from Virginia, with us in person.
Speaker 3: Always a treat to see you.
Speaker 2: Hope your holidays are well, Oh great, you're a happy
Speaker 2: guy because you're not doing this anymore, right.
Speaker 4: It's absolutely a bulliant that a word, yeah, but a
Speaker 4: billion yeah, I'm a billion.
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, I like that. It's a nice place to start.
Speaker 2: I suspect that Mike Johnson is kind of feeling that
Speaker 2: way as well, Jim Comer just this morning was calling
Speaker 2: around the twenty people who helped to dispatch Kevin McCarthy
Speaker 2: to say, hey, you got to get on board with
Speaker 2: Mike Johnson.
Speaker 3: I guess the job's been done.
Speaker 4: I don't think so. I didn't work out for McCarthy
Speaker 4: that well. And you know, when you think about it,
Speaker 4: and also when you look at people like the chip Roys,
Speaker 4: the Tom Massey's, the Andy Harris's, they drink their own bathwater.
Speaker 4: You know they don't really drink Trump's bath water. Don't
Speaker 4: sound good, No, it doesn't. But I think you know
Speaker 4: a lot of people call the Freedom Caucus the Trump
Speaker 4: Protection Caucus, but in reality, there are people there that
Speaker 4: are very idealistic right their ideologues, and they also going
Speaker 4: to do their own thing, and their districts are relatively safe.
Speaker 4: So as we get closer to the mid terms, if
Speaker 4: things aren't tracking the way they want based on their ideology,
Speaker 4: based on what they're looking at. As far as the
Speaker 4: deaf sit in the debt, you could see some issues
Speaker 4: and I think there are going to be some arguments.
Speaker 4: I don't think it guarantees Mike Johnson the speakership at all.
Speaker 4: I think you're gonna I think, you know, if you
Speaker 4: look at Chip roy people forget Chip Royce certified the election,
Speaker 4: you know, and Chip you know, his Freedom Caucus, and
Speaker 4: he went against most of the Freedom Caucus to do that.
Speaker 4: So I think again people need to realize, yes, Trump
Speaker 4: does control the party almost completely, but you do have
Speaker 4: people like the chip Roys and the Thomas Massis that
Speaker 4: are going to do what they're going to do well.
Speaker 2: So if there's no guarantee that Mike Johnson is the speaker,
Speaker 2: then the Congress cannot begin, right. You have to have
Speaker 2: the speaker to swear in the Congress, then the lawmakers.
Speaker 2: There's also this thing coming down the pike called the
Speaker 2: inauguration that's happening. Yeah, there's also going to be a
Speaker 2: former president lying in state on January Not can any
Speaker 2: of that happen if we don't have a speaker.
Speaker 4: I think as far as with the former president, I
Speaker 4: think that absolutely does happen. But as far as you know,
Speaker 4: the multiple rounds of a speaker right at the beginning
Speaker 4: of the Congress, I think it would be interesting because
Speaker 4: what is the how many Republicans are going to be
Speaker 4: sitting two nineteen or two twenty. So say you have
Speaker 4: three or four, they're like, we don't want to do
Speaker 4: this right now. We're going to demand some things.
Speaker 2: Then you Democrats, there's not gonna be one Democrat that
Speaker 2: votes from Mike Johnson first.
Speaker 3: That's what Hockey Jeffrey.
Speaker 4: Says, not one, not one, not one. It's not going
Speaker 4: to happen. And I think that at this point when
Speaker 4: we see what's already happening, what they called the magasivil
Speaker 4: War and things like that is happening right now, it's
Speaker 4: going to be very interesting to see how that does.
Speaker 2: But you know what the first day of Congress is like,
Speaker 2: you've done this. They bring the kids, they're singing songs together, right,
Speaker 2: the big swear if it is raw raw, everyone feels great.
Speaker 2: That's supposed to be the one day you feel good
Speaker 2: about your job. And watch, well, what's it going to
Speaker 2: be like this?
Speaker 3: It's going to be miserable.
Speaker 4: You know when I when miserable, miserable when I swore in.
Speaker 4: You know, it was that long four to five hour wait.
Speaker 4: Remember it was coming over from the Republican to the
Speaker 4: Democratic Congress. When I came in, it was a long,
Speaker 4: miserable day for me. It wasn't really a brilliant so
Speaker 4: but I think it's going to be a miserable day.
Speaker 4: I think you're going to have a lot of votes,
Speaker 4: and I think it's.
Speaker 3: Going to be many rounds either way.
Speaker 4: I think it might be, but it depends on again,
Speaker 4: if Comer can convince people. I hope he does a
Speaker 4: better job than convince people in the Oversight Committee. But
Speaker 4: if he, if he does a you know, a halfway
Speaker 4: decent job in convincing people, maybe it's easy. But I
Speaker 4: think I think they actually have to ramp up their
Speaker 4: lobbying efforts pretty hard to get everybody on.
Speaker 3: Board just to elect a speaker.
Speaker 2: Not even passive piece of legs still elect a speaker.
Speaker 3: A letislation is going to be a shit show. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's well, you can't say that, No, it's all sorry.
Speaker 2: Let me let me ask you about something else coming
Speaker 2: January sixth. This is of personal import to you because
Speaker 2: you were an advisor on the January sixth committee.
Speaker 3: You also lived through that madness.
Speaker 2: I just wonder what you make of the fact that
Speaker 2: no one's talking about it. It is, you know, it's
Speaker 2: it's something you know four years later, you would think
Speaker 2: this would be.
Speaker 3: A big deal.
Speaker 4: This should be the biggest deal is what happened on
Speaker 4: January sixth. I honestly don't foresee hair supporters storming the capitol,
Speaker 4: you know, coming in for January sixth. But this should
Speaker 4: be a huge deal. And I think part of it,
Speaker 4: you know, I wonder a little bit. And I'm not
Speaker 4: trying to be self deprecating or humble bragg everything. If
Speaker 4: I haven't done enough based on the data that we saw,
Speaker 4: and we still knew that, you know, years, you know,
Speaker 4: two to three years after we really thought we'd see
Speaker 4: more in action. When it came to action criminal, I
Speaker 4: would say charges against certain individuals. You know, we had
Speaker 4: phone records, we had text records. Those are at the
Speaker 4: archives or wherever they're nested right now. But I have
Speaker 4: to tell you, to me, it's the most important thing.
Speaker 4: It's the way that I voted was because of January sixth.
Speaker 4: It's what I've seen. It's why I wrote my book,
Speaker 4: it's why I started my new company. Everything had to
Speaker 4: do with what I saw was the lack of resourcing,
Speaker 4: lack of technology, you know, the fact we couldn't get
Speaker 4: what we needed to get. But the other good side
Speaker 4: of that was we had enough to do to identify
Speaker 4: some of the real bad actors at the command and
Speaker 4: control level. But I have to tell you, I think
Speaker 4: people want to forget, and I think it should be
Speaker 4: something we remember every January sixth. But again, it's a
Speaker 4: little surprising to me because for me, it's one of
Speaker 4: the most important things to happen in American Pastor.
Speaker 3: People want to forget.
Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting whether you are fond of what happened
Speaker 2: that day or not. Did Democrats want to forget that
Speaker 2: because it's a difficult memory.
Speaker 4: I think it was hard for them to run on it.
Speaker 4: I don't think they could actually verbalize specifically why January
Speaker 4: six was so important, which shocked me because for me,
Speaker 4: relize it pretty easily. As you know, we've we've talked
Speaker 4: about it before. But I wonder if America is on
Speaker 4: the psychiatric couch right and are like, do you remember that,
Speaker 4: like January sixth, twenty five one? What happened that day?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: But it is really incredible to me. I think we
Speaker 4: need to actually bring that more to the forefront, and
Speaker 4: I think we need to revisit why that happened. The
Speaker 4: disinformation right and the fact that you know, one in
Speaker 4: five Americans have, don't you know, read below the sixth
Speaker 4: grade level. I believe that's correct, and we have to
Speaker 4: look at education and things that happened. But why did
Speaker 4: people sack the capital based on fantasy?
Speaker 3: It's not going to happen again this time around, not
Speaker 3: that I see.
Speaker 2: I just legislation would also prevent this from being Yeah,
Speaker 2: matter of the vice president.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's correct, that's right. Correct.
Speaker 2: So what happens when all of the January sixth offenders
Speaker 2: are pardoned? Is that something Donald Trump does?
Speaker 4: I absolutely, I think in the outset, you know, I
Speaker 4: think they'll say they'll go case by case, but I
Speaker 4: think they're going to pardon I would say majority of
Speaker 4: the January sixth, those who are convicted. I wonder about
Speaker 4: those who actually beat law enforce. But it's going to
Speaker 4: be very difficult. I think when you do these type
Speaker 4: of pardons, how do you actually explain away those that
Speaker 4: you pardon it actually you know, physically assaulted Capitol police.
Speaker 4: You know, I know them many that were there, and
Speaker 4: I do wonder how that's going to pan out.
Speaker 2: It's been suggested that he leaves the biggest offenders right
Speaker 2: where they are, just wouldn't be a blanket pardon. Do
Speaker 2: you believe they go case by case through this matter?
Speaker 2: We're talking about a lot of people here Denver.
Speaker 4: I think they're going to I think they're going to
Speaker 4: set a minimum threshold, and they're not going to go
Speaker 4: case by case on that threshold. If it was people
Speaker 4: just trespassed, I think they'll just pardon them. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: carte blanche. And you know, for those who did the
Speaker 4: more serious things, it does bother me if they do
Speaker 4: get out. And I'm not for any partons on the
Speaker 4: JA six individuals, but it's very difficult because it seems
Speaker 4: every president pardons people that I never would.
Speaker 3: Let's talk of preemptive pardons. Joe Biden.
Speaker 2: I always hear the name Liz Cheney, then you hear
Speaker 2: Adam Kinzinger, how about Denver Riggleman.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know, I've certainly had some threats
Speaker 4: and I and you know, there's a possibil I'm subpoenad. Right,
Speaker 4: as we saw Barry Loudermilks one hundred and twenty eight
Speaker 4: page report, which I actually read. I know, people, I
Speaker 4: know it's crazy, I read it, but it's ludicrous, right,
Speaker 4: and Barry had you know, I know Barry, they have
Speaker 4: some I guess they made some points on the defense
Speaker 4: of the Capitol and some of those breakdowns they were correct.
Speaker 4: But going after Liz Cheneys saying somehow she was meddling
Speaker 4: that way is just ludicrous. It's it's absolutely what Donald
Speaker 4: Trump wanted the committee to do.
Speaker 1: But I so.
Speaker 4: But I think as far as a preemptive partner, I
Speaker 4: don't want one.
Speaker 3: You don't, I don't.
Speaker 4: I'd rather fight whine because I think I think people
Speaker 4: need to stand up and you know, if you want
Speaker 4: and I know there's some people who I would say,
Speaker 4: you know, with Liz and and even with Adam, you know,
Speaker 4: maybe a part pardon works in their favorites up to
Speaker 4: them to have that. But for me, I'd rather the
Speaker 4: bar fight right now.
Speaker 3: The bar fight, Yeah, I'd rather that.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's how I was raised.
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't have a political career to run
Speaker 3: a distillery.
Speaker 4: I do run a distillery. We do make whiskey, and
Speaker 4: I do have an AI company too, and so I
Speaker 4: also pretty good with data. So if they want somebody
Speaker 4: who makes whiskey and goes after bad people with data
Speaker 4: up in Congress, who's a former congressman.
Speaker 3: I'm happy to ablage.
Speaker 4: You're going to get lunch with Elon to talk about this? Oh,
Speaker 4: you don't you know what I would have lunch with Elon.
Speaker 4: You know, I would tell him to stop posting you know, gobshite, right,
Speaker 4: and you know, and I think a lot of that
Speaker 4: has to do with, you know, the things that he's doing.
Speaker 3: But yeah, i'd have lunch with Elon until what I thought,
Speaker 3: what's going on with Elon Musk here?
Speaker 2: We're already seeing a little bit of a breakdown over
Speaker 2: the H one B situation. Yeah, the Maga versus Musk
Speaker 2: situation seems tenuous. Well, a year or two from now,
Speaker 2: will he still have the president's year?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: No, No, I mean the thing about H one b's
Speaker 4: what's interesting. You know, he's going against some really big
Speaker 4: packs on the far right, like Numbers USA and things
Speaker 4: like that. But for me, I'm an H one B
Speaker 4: H two A, an H two B supporter based on
Speaker 4: our district's very rural, but we also have a lot
Speaker 4: of technology in Virginia and the Commonwealth. And I mean
Speaker 4: that's why I'm starting an exploratory committee to run for
Speaker 4: state wide office. Is because of those type of issues.
Speaker 4: So you know, those are the type of things you
Speaker 4: know that excite me.
Speaker 2: Well, hold on because I always reserve the last minute
Speaker 2: or two of our conversations to ask you that last
Speaker 2: thing that you know you may or may not want
Speaker 2: to answer, because whether you've get a pardon or not,
Speaker 2: will you have.
Speaker 3: A political future?
Speaker 4: You know, I didn't have one before when I want accidentally, so,
Speaker 4: but I.
Speaker 3: Think would you like to have a political future.
Speaker 4: I think I would rather try to change the dynamic
Speaker 4: of the two party system that seems to you know,
Speaker 4: I would you know, Rain as a Republican. I got
Speaker 4: to be behind the door with Trump. I was Republicans
Speaker 4: for Harris and the things that I saw, you know,
Speaker 4: on either side, which a lot of people say, actually
Speaker 4: frighten me based on special interest. It always has when
Speaker 4: I got into politics, not to the age of about
Speaker 4: forty six forty seven. So yeah, I have a lot
Speaker 4: of issues because I have individuals. I say a lot
Speaker 4: of issues. There's probably going to be the sound by
Speaker 4: people like but you know, but you know, I have
Speaker 4: a lot of responsibilities, right, fiduciary responsibilities for my companies.
Speaker 4: But that's why we start an exploratory committee, because I
Speaker 4: think there needs to be somebody who's willing to drag
Speaker 4: the acts and tell the truth, regardless if there's an
Speaker 4: RD behind people's names. And that's why we're looking at
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people, you know, who've asked me.
Speaker 4: They don't have to force me. Nobody's going to force
Speaker 4: me to do anything. But it was interesting to see
Speaker 4: the amount of support I had just for an exploratory committee.
Speaker 4: Tennant governor, well maybe Dad or who knows state wide.
Speaker 3: Officer run the state of Virginia.
Speaker 4: I don't know if I could with That's why we're
Speaker 4: looking at conflicts of interests and stuff like that, but
Speaker 4: lieutenant governor's absolutely a possibility.
Speaker 3: There you have it from Denver Riggleman. Fascinating.
Speaker 2: It would not be running as a Republican though right now,
Speaker 2: or a Ridge Party or a Democrat storry running as
Speaker 2: Denver frickin' Riggleman. The gentlemen from Virginia. It's always great
Speaker 2: to see you here at the table. Happy New Year,
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on New Year.
Speaker 1: Thanks you're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast
Speaker 1: kens Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and
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Speaker 2: I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. We did hear from Joe Biden.
Speaker 2: He's in Saint Croix, of course for the holidays. Address
Speaker 2: the nation upon the news of Jimmy Carter's death.
Speaker 5: Let's listen America in the world, have view lost a
Speaker 5: remarkable leader? Well, I find extraordinary about Jimmy Carter, though
Speaker 5: millions of people all around.
Speaker 3: The world, all over the world.
Speaker 5: Feel they lost a friend as well, even though they
Speaker 5: never met him. And that's because Jimmy Carter lived a
Speaker 5: life measured not by words but by his deeds.
Speaker 2: I want to add the voice of Honra Gillespie, Associate
Speaker 2: professor of political science at Emory University, a frequent voice
Speaker 2: on this program. Professor, it's great to see you. Welcome
Speaker 2: back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. There are so many
Speaker 2: comparisons We've been hearing them since before Jimmy Carter went
Speaker 2: into hospice, to the Biden administration, Donald Trump himself, who
Speaker 2: today had some nicer things to say about Jimmy Carter
Speaker 2: constantly making that comparison.
Speaker 3: Was it fair?
Speaker 6: You know, I think in some ways people are going
Speaker 6: to sort of use them as parallels because of their
Speaker 6: relatively short terms. But Jimmy Carter and Joe Biden have
Speaker 6: different things. When Joe Biden became President of the United States,
Speaker 6: he came with decades of Washington experience, and I think
Speaker 6: as we look to see what the legislative impact of
Speaker 6: his policy agenda was, it's going to look different, though
Speaker 6: it's going to be substantial as was President Carter's. You know,
Speaker 6: President Carter came in as an outsider. He's coming in
Speaker 6: off the heels of Watergate. He came in to set
Speaker 6: a new tone, to try to help to restore trust
Speaker 6: in American institutions that had been ravaged by mistakes that
Speaker 6: President Nixon had made. And I think, you know, the
Speaker 6: thing that's really going to distinguish President Carter from President
Speaker 6: Biden is his post presidency. So, you know, looking at
Speaker 6: the actuarial tables, Joe Biden isn't going to have the
Speaker 6: type of post presidency that Jimmy Carter had. But Jimmy
Speaker 6: Carter was able to build upon the record that I
Speaker 6: think was unheralded while he served in office, but he
Speaker 6: was able to build on that record to have, you know,
Speaker 6: the gold standard for post presidencies. And you know, part
Speaker 6: of that was because he was voted out of office.
Speaker 6: He was in his mid fifties, and he had a
Speaker 6: long life, and so he had a long time to
Speaker 6: be able to cultivate a legacy around the world of
Speaker 6: helping to promote democracy, eradicate disease, promote peace.
Speaker 2: The longest lived former president in American history, he certainly
Speaker 2: used the time. To your point, professor, how has that
Speaker 2: changed the way we look at his actual presidency Because
Speaker 2: everything you hear today, including the statement from Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: well I didn't agree with this or I didn't think
Speaker 2: he'd made the right decision here as president, but he
Speaker 2: went on to convince me that he was a great
Speaker 2: patriot and that he was to be trusted.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think that was very gracious of incoming
Speaker 6: President Trump. But it's also just the consistency and the
Speaker 6: integrity with which he lived his life. I think that
Speaker 6: that's probably going to be his greatest legacy. I think
Speaker 6: people forget that in nineteen seventy six, people were still
Speaker 6: reeling from Watergate, there were concerns, you know, about corruption.
Speaker 6: Jimmy Carter presenting himself as a Baptist school teacher and
Speaker 6: a born again Christian, and you know, even though it
Speaker 6: was maligned at the time, the type of person who
Speaker 6: really did try to live out his faith was something
Speaker 6: that was supposed to be a refreshing reversal of course
Speaker 6: for the United States. You know, when he was in office,
Speaker 6: he was often accused of hectoring. So when we talk
Speaker 6: about the energy crisis, his admonitions to Americans to turn
Speaker 6: down thermostat and put on her sweater were not necessarily
Speaker 6: particularly well worthy. But you know, when we think, you
Speaker 6: know about what he was saying, he was saying this
Speaker 6: all in good faith. And you know, even though he
Speaker 6: was voted out of office in nineteen eighty, when he's
Speaker 6: continuing to live that life and to live it consistently
Speaker 6: and to try to do live out his faith as
Speaker 6: best as he could, I think people saw the genuineness.
Speaker 6: And you know, and that also manifested itself in terms
Speaker 6: of the causes that they took up, so looking for
Speaker 6: diseases that people weren't thinking about that affected people in
Speaker 6: the developing world, going after the most vulnerable, helping to
Speaker 6: amplify the efforts of habitat for humanity. This is a
Speaker 6: person who kind of, you know, really tried to walk
Speaker 6: the talk and to live out his faith in a
Speaker 6: really exceptional way. And I think that that's part of
Speaker 6: the reason why so many people had so much respect
Speaker 6: for him.
Speaker 2: The Camp David Accords, I think would be considered a
Speaker 2: pretty remarkable success for any presidency, even if that was
Speaker 2: the only thing he had to show for it. But
Speaker 2: of course he had the Iranian hostage crisis that so
Speaker 2: many people remember just as strongly, in fact more in
Speaker 2: some cases. Here he said in twenty fifteen, I was
Speaker 2: really taken by this professor one of the big regrets.
Speaker 3: He had in his life. When asked if he had.
Speaker 2: Any he said, quote, I wished I'd sent one more
Speaker 2: helicopter to get the hostages. We would have rescued them,
Speaker 2: and I would have been reelected.
Speaker 3: Is that true?
Speaker 6: So I would lead that up to my diplomatic historians
Speaker 6: to say that. But I think you always think of
Speaker 6: what you could do to help ease suffering for people,
Speaker 6: and that certainly was a hallmark of President Carter's life.
Speaker 7: You know, The truth is.
Speaker 6: Is that there is sort of the symbol of the
Speaker 6: hostages coming home as Ronald Reagan is being inaugurated into office,
Speaker 6: and so there certainly is a certain centering in symbolism
Speaker 6: there that one wish she could have avoided. And certainly
Speaker 6: the inability to be able to get the hostages home
Speaker 6: sort of contributed to this perception in some instances. And
Speaker 6: I think, you know, in hindsight, was undeserved that President
Speaker 6: Carter was feckless, and so that contributing to you know,
Speaker 6: the stagnating economy at the time and the energy crisis certainly,
Speaker 6: you know, made people feel a certain type of malaise
Speaker 6: that I think we're familiar with today. And I think
Speaker 6: the lesson of Carter, perhaps twenty years from now, the
Speaker 6: lesson of Joe Biden, is we shouldn't necessarily make decisions
Speaker 6: about presidents based on how we feel in the moment
Speaker 6: or based on short term calculations.
Speaker 2: Well, boy, that's a professor talking, if there ever was one.
Speaker 2: You're talking to a journalist here, be careful, Udra Gillespie.
Speaker 2: You know, can we remind our listeners and viewers by
Speaker 2: the way that he never used the word malaise in
Speaker 2: the so called malaise speech.
Speaker 3: How did that happen?
Speaker 6: So I defer to the historians about that, but it's
Speaker 6: not certainly the first time that a word kind of
Speaker 6: captures the zeitgeist, even if it wasn't directly said by you.
Speaker 2: Know, gets back to the first draft of history, though,
Speaker 2: doesn't it You don't always believe the analysis or don't
Speaker 2: always fully invest yourself in the analysis that you're hearing
Speaker 2: in real time. I think is the point that you're making,
Speaker 2: and I'll try to underscore here in our remaining two moments.
Speaker 3: Professor, talk to me about.
Speaker 2: The relationship that Jimmy Carter had with Atlanta, the fact
Speaker 2: that he went back the way that he did, and
Speaker 2: then of course staged a post presidency that reinvented the
Speaker 2: mall in his hometown.
Speaker 6: Well, this is something that I've certainly benefited from. So
Speaker 6: he you know, lived in Plains, but he set up
Speaker 6: his presidential library at the Carter Center, which has a
Speaker 6: connection to Emory University, where I work. President Carter was
Speaker 6: on the faculty. So every year, as long as he
Speaker 6: was physically able to do so, he gave a convocation
Speaker 6: to all of our freshman students. It was certainly a
Speaker 6: treat to be able to attend one of those events
Speaker 6: all the freshmen had to attend. President Carter made himself
Speaker 6: available to faculty. He would invite you to lunch. He
Speaker 6: would also inform you if he was going to teach
Speaker 6: your class. And so I remember getting that email one
Speaker 6: year telling me President Carter's coming to your classes such
Speaker 6: and such a day. And you know, my one regret
Speaker 6: from that, I learned from a colleague who had to
Speaker 6: happen to her a couple of years later, is that
Speaker 6: I didn't video record that lecture. But the things that
Speaker 6: he said in that lecture in my class I still
Speaker 6: repeat to my students, you know, even more than a
Speaker 6: decade later.
Speaker 2: That's really wonderful. I'm glad you could share that memory
Speaker 2: with us. Sondrick Gillespie, thank you so much, professor. It's
Speaker 2: good to see you from Emory University. Of course in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 3: Otto with the Bloomberg Business app.
Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch
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Speaker 3: Thanks for being with us.
Speaker 2: On a Monday edition of Balance of Power, as we
Speaker 2: had the voice of Ashley Davis, the Republican strategist, of
Speaker 2: course you've heard from many times on this program, with
Speaker 2: a slightly different take on things today as we consider
Speaker 2: the legacy of a democratic president. She's of course founding
Speaker 2: partner Westfront Strategies. Great to see Ashley. I hope you're
Speaker 2: having a great holiday season, and we'll get to Jimmy Carter.
Speaker 2: I just wonder your thoughts on what's going on in
Speaker 2: the house here. Did Mike Johnson just close the deal?
Speaker 2: Is he a made man?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 8: First of all, Happy New Year, and I wish I
Speaker 8: was with you in person. I'm in cold weather right now.
Speaker 8: But I actually think it helps him a lot. Obviously,
Speaker 8: the President elect understands that if he wants to get
Speaker 8: his agenda done, or actually get anything done in the
Speaker 8: first hundred days of his administration, that we have to
Speaker 8: have a house in place right away. And Speaker Johnson
Speaker 8: is the one that would do the best job in
Speaker 8: regards to not having chaos of an election. And I mean,
Speaker 8: how many times was did it take for McCarthy to
Speaker 8: get first time? Eleven or thirteen? I forget the number
Speaker 8: right now. But the only other name is Stephanie was saying,
Speaker 8: names do pop up. The only other name that I
Speaker 8: think would kind of appease some of these conservatives on
Speaker 8: the right, which there aren't that many, but you don't
Speaker 8: need that many to upend his speakership is Jim Jordan,
Speaker 8: and he has said several times that he is not
Speaker 8: going to run against Speaker Johnson. So I do think
Speaker 8: that President Trump coming out today was a huge win
Speaker 8: for them, But I also think it's self serving because
Speaker 8: it's not going to help President Trump to have chaos
Speaker 8: going into his new administration.
Speaker 3: Well, Mike Lawler agrees with you. The Republican from New.
Speaker 2: York was on ABC this week asked about this very matter, Ashley.
Speaker 3: Here's what he said.
Speaker 9: Mike Johnson inherited a disaster when Matt Gates and several
Speaker 9: of my colleagues teamed up with two hundred and eight
Speaker 9: Democrats to remove Kevin McCarthy, which will go down as
Speaker 9: the single stupidest thing I've ever seen in politics. With
Speaker 9: that said, Mike Johnson would equally be as stupid.
Speaker 3: That's quite a statement, I have to admit, Ashley. Do
Speaker 3: you agree with it?
Speaker 8: Yeah, I would probably not use as extreme words, but
Speaker 8: it wasn't smart, and it's not going to be smart again.
Speaker 8: I mean, and if you look at this, this is
Speaker 8: like Chip Roy, this is I'll be interesting to hear
Speaker 8: what congress In Fleischmann says to you. You said he's
Speaker 8: coming up next, because he's obviously considered a conservative member,
Speaker 8: but not a destructionist, so I'm assuming he thinks it's
Speaker 8: a good idea. Moving forward to Speaker Johnson thing in place.
Speaker 3: Not a destructionist. Fascinating use of that word, Ashley.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about the big debate that's
Speaker 2: broken out over immigration here, and I'm not referring to
Speaker 2: border security. I'm referring to actual legal immigration. People who
Speaker 2: watch this program know that you have a long history
Speaker 2: in the national security space and helped to bring about
Speaker 2: the Department of Homeland Security, and this idea of H
Speaker 2: one B versus suddenly being extremely controversial as a component
Speaker 2: of this border issue is really interesting. Elon Musk of course,
Speaker 2: suggesting that we lift the cap on these H one
Speaker 2: b's bring in foreign based talent to help us, particularly
Speaker 2: in high tech, but that runs counter to what a
Speaker 2: lot of the MAGA world thinks. A ought to be
Speaker 2: happening when it comes to the border in America. First,
Speaker 2: how do you square this from where you're.
Speaker 8: Sitting, Yeah, I think that this is totally getting combined
Speaker 8: into one conversation that really shouldn't be because the visas
Speaker 8: that Elon and the Vager speaking about the HB one,
Speaker 8: they're actually legal visas that are sponsored by companies and
Speaker 8: corporations to bring talent in. And the MAGA side of
Speaker 8: the party, that and many others not just MAGA that
Speaker 8: are concerned about border security, in my mind, are people
Speaker 8: that are coming over here illegally. So I really think
Speaker 8: it's important to split the topic up because it's one
Speaker 8: does not have anything to do with the other one.
Speaker 8: You have sixty five thousand available HB one visas every
Speaker 8: year to apply to and you get a three year
Speaker 8: That visa last three years, and you have actually one
Speaker 8: more chance to extend it another three years. But otherwise,
Speaker 8: it's not that people are coming across the border illegally,
Speaker 8: staying here and not being able to be found. Obviously
Speaker 8: the ones that commit crimes that are here as well,
Speaker 8: So it's a different program. So I agree with Elon
Speaker 8: and Vivek on this, and I guess the President.
Speaker 3: Noted duly noted.
Speaker 2: But now that Elon Musk and the vike Ramaswami have
Speaker 2: kicked the nest on this, we have an active debate
Speaker 2: going on over work visas, whether they're skilled or not.
Speaker 2: And Donald Trump was talking about dreamers in the only
Speaker 2: interview he's done since being elected, is something that he
Speaker 2: would work with Democrats on. So it sounds to me
Speaker 2: actually like just shutting down the border is not enough.
Speaker 2: Is the answer not comprehensive imag reform.
Speaker 8: I think the comprehensive immigration reform, I mean, in two
Speaker 8: thousand and seven was the closest that that ever was
Speaker 8: becoming true to reality when when Senator Kennedy then President
Speaker 8: Bush almost did strike a deal. I think that a
Speaker 8: win for President Trump is in this first year right away,
Speaker 8: which is why I think reconciliation will happen. I think
Speaker 8: there's two buckets that will happen. Per your earlier conversation
Speaker 8: with Stephanie, I think they'll do border first, along with energy.
Speaker 8: But the reason why is if you get the million
Speaker 8: illegal immigrants that are in this country out of the
Speaker 8: country the first year that have committed a crime or
Speaker 8: have completely exhausted the appealed process. That's a million people
Speaker 8: that can go out right away, which is a huge
Speaker 8: win for Trump. So if he does that and then
Speaker 8: work slowly over the next three years trying to find
Speaker 8: and round up all these other people that have come
Speaker 8: over here illegally, I think that's going to be phase two.
Speaker 8: But if you deal with eight be one visas, or
Speaker 8: if you deal with Dreamers, I mean, that's a whole
Speaker 8: that's in my mind is stage three, four five. You've
Speaker 8: got to get rid of these top ones first and
Speaker 8: second that have committed crimes in this country.
Speaker 2: Rick Davis's ears are burning after I said comprehensive immigration reform.
Speaker 2: As we spend time with Ashley Davis, I haven't asked
Speaker 2: you about Jimmy Carter. Ashley, what do you make of
Speaker 2: the constant comparisons, by the way, not just today, but
Speaker 2: for the balance of Joe Biden's administration being compared to
Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter.
Speaker 3: Is that fair?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 8: I think listen, and I said this before in my
Speaker 8: show President Bush. My boss used to always say, let
Speaker 8: history make this decision on what I've done. And I
Speaker 8: think that Jimmy Carter will go down in history as
Speaker 8: do and even today yesterday when he passed away. There's
Speaker 8: many people that believe in many things that he did.
Speaker 8: I think during the campaign, when people were criticizing President Biden,
Speaker 8: they were giving him, obviously an insult saying that President
Speaker 8: Carter never did anything to this country. What you said
Speaker 8: earlier in what Stephanie said in regards to President Trump
Speaker 8: giving his condolences, being part of this club is a
Speaker 8: very lonely club, and I think that there are many
Speaker 8: country that do respect this. You see that the funeral
Speaker 8: will be on January ninth. Obviously the stock market will
Speaker 8: be closed. Does that mean you get off on the ninth,
Speaker 8: Joe Mark.
Speaker 3: I don't think so. We're going to call you to join.
Speaker 8: Us, actually, but I think that it was more of
Speaker 8: an insult to President Biden than it was, to go
Speaker 8: back to your question, than it actually was about Jimmy Carter.
Speaker 8: He'll go down in history of maybe making some mistakes,
Speaker 8: but also doing some good things.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 2: Do you think that Trump's statement about Jimmy Carter was
Speaker 2: more of an insult to Joe Biden?
Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying during.
Speaker 8: The campaign when he was being when he was being
Speaker 8: compared to Jimmy Carter, the statement that he made yesterday
Speaker 8: I thought was very appropriate.
Speaker 3: Well, so what's the lesson here?
Speaker 2: And you know, I always saved the easy question for
Speaker 2: last when we're out of time, Ashley. But I keep
Speaker 2: hearing from people Democrats and Republicans who say, you know what,
Speaker 2: the lasting impression is that he had dignity, that people
Speaker 2: trusted his word, that he was a nice guy.
Speaker 3: What am I supposed to take from that in this
Speaker 3: age in Washington?
Speaker 8: Well, I mean, obviously there's lots of criticism, but I'm
Speaker 8: reading this book right now actually talking about all the
Speaker 8: various presidents that have gone down and saying there was
Speaker 8: an integrity or there wasn't they weren't patriotic enough. I mean,
Speaker 8: how many people hated Ronald Reagan that now the entire
Speaker 8: Republican Party runs on being Ronald Reagan?
Speaker 3: Asked?
Speaker 8: So I think again, this to me goes back on time.
Speaker 8: Heals a lot of wounds and a lot of memories
Speaker 8: are short.
Speaker 3: How true?
Speaker 2: Joining us live from the Matterhorn Ashley Davis, founding partner
Speaker 2: West Front Strategies. It's great to see you, Ashley. Happy
Speaker 2: New Year, and we'll see you in twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: because we're going to have a lot to talk about.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kens
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Speaker 2: I'm Joe Matthew in Washington, where we do have breaking
Speaker 2: news on the new Congress, or so we think we do.
Speaker 2: In any other world this would be a deal closer,
Speaker 2: and it may well be in this case. As the
Speaker 2: President elect, Donald Trump throws his complete, I believe, total
Speaker 2: and complete, as he termed it, endorsement behind Mike Johnson
Speaker 2: and his bid to be the Speaker of the House
Speaker 2: in the new Congress, something we want to discuss, among
Speaker 2: other issues with the gentleman from Tennessee. Republican Congressman Chuck
Speaker 2: Fleischman is with us right now live on Bloomberg TV
Speaker 2: and Radio as he prepares to make tracks back to
Speaker 2: the nation's capital. Congressman, it's good to see you. I
Speaker 2: hope you had a great Christmas, and I hope you're
Speaker 2: on the threshold of a great New Year's.
Speaker 3: In the meantime, we have some business to talk about here.
Speaker 2: Is this a deal closer for Mike Johnson to carry
Speaker 2: the gavel in this new Congress.
Speaker 7: I feel so good about President Trump's strong and unequivocal endorsement.
Speaker 3: I did the same thing this morning, right before him.
Speaker 7: So I like to I send out a little tweet
Speaker 7: to Mike Johnson, thanking him and saying, look, the great
Speaker 7: news is is the president elect. President Trump and I
Speaker 7: are on the same page once again. The reality is
Speaker 7: we're going to have a one seat majority after the
Speaker 7: three leave. It's going to be a tough Congress. Really,
Speaker 7: this should be Mike Johnson's He's earned the job, he's
Speaker 7: earned our trust, he's got my full support. But candidly,
Speaker 7: getting Donald Trump's support is going to really really help
Speaker 7: close this deal. It's a deal maker Without that endorsement.
Speaker 7: I was a little bit concerned for Mike Johnson. Now
Speaker 7: I feel very good about January third.
Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: I don't think you're suggesting it was your idea here
Speaker 2: for Donald Trump to make that post of the time,
Speaker 2: I had.
Speaker 3: An interest in Congressman, but yeah, you're not the only one.
Speaker 2: Though, a lot of people were trying to get to
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. A lot of folks were trying to say
Speaker 2: good things about Mike Johnson within the conference, including Jim Comer,
Speaker 2: and you can finish your statement if you want here.
Speaker 2: But Comer said, just as recently as yesterday, we have
Speaker 2: five Republicans that won't commit to voting for Mike Johnson.
Speaker 3: Does Donald Trump bring them over?
Speaker 7: I think he is so persuasive, and if he doesn't
Speaker 7: bring them all, I think ultimately he'll bring most of them.
Speaker 7: You have to look at the situation say, if not
Speaker 7: Mike Johnson, who or whom? And then that big blank
Speaker 7: is out there who can get to that magic number?
Speaker 7: And it's not going to be easy, So we don't
Speaker 7: want to go fifteen rounds. I was very active in
Speaker 7: the fifteen round fight to get McCarthy made speaker, actually
Speaker 7: helped him in that. In fact, I was one of
Speaker 7: the last people to go and speak with Matt Gates
Speaker 7: and plead with him and actually went well at that time,
Speaker 7: didn't go so well later. But the reality is we
Speaker 7: need a strong, unified message because candidly, the way it works,
Speaker 7: the Democrats are watching on the other side of the aisle.
Speaker 7: If they perceive weakness, they will take advantage of that,
Speaker 7: and we don't need that. In order for President Trump
Speaker 7: to have his strong agenda carried out, the House is
Speaker 7: going to have to be that first step.
Speaker 3: Getting Mike Johnson elected a.
Speaker 7: Speaker I think will clearly clearly get that done. And then
Speaker 7: of course in the Senate, I think sledding will be
Speaker 7: much easier with that fifty three seed majority.
Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about the agenda for a moment.
Speaker 1: Then.
Speaker 2: I know that Donald Trump and Mike Johnson were talking
Speaker 2: about it at the Army Navy Game. I don't know
Speaker 2: that anything has been hammered out for sure. Will Republicans
Speaker 2: try to get their arms around the border first, Trump,
Speaker 2: tax cut second, or both at the same time.
Speaker 7: I think you start now. Of course President Trump will
Speaker 7: choose his back order, but I think it's smart to
Speaker 7: start with the easier tasks first. The border is easy
Speaker 7: because Joe Biden in this administration have done such a
Speaker 7: terrible job. It's porous, it's open. We've had millions and
Speaker 7: millions of illegals come in. We have got to fix it.
Speaker 7: And you've got the vast support of the vast majority
Speaker 7: of the American people. Big cities, rural areas, we have
Speaker 7: got to deal with this. It's a national security crisis.
Speaker 7: Getting that done. I think the second thing should be
Speaker 7: foreign policy. I think Trump is going to be very
Speaker 7: strong in bringing peace to Ukraine and Russia. I think
Speaker 7: he will have great credibility with both Putin and with Stelensky,
Speaker 7: so I think that could be another early win. The
Speaker 7: Middle East is another story. It's a very tumultuous region.
Speaker 7: But Trump can take his best shot at that. I
Speaker 7: think he'll do well there. Taxes is going to be
Speaker 7: something else. It's going to be difficult. It's cumbersome. Our
Speaker 7: tax code is cumbersome in and of itsa. We need
Speaker 7: to preserve these Trump tax cuts that I actually voted
Speaker 7: for in his first term. I think it's critically important
Speaker 7: for our economy. But I think we will take these
Speaker 7: in progression. We will test the waters, we will work
Speaker 7: through the process, and hopefully have a good, strong first
Speaker 7: one hundred days for President Trump.
Speaker 2: There's a question about how wide to go on the
Speaker 2: matter of immigration. Congressman, We've been dealing with the idea
Speaker 2: of border security and a vacuum until Elon Musk brought
Speaker 2: up the matter of H one B visus. These are,
Speaker 2: of course the work visas that bring skilled talent from
Speaker 2: other countries. I talked to your colleague, Haley Stevens, Democrat
Speaker 2: from Michigan about this.
Speaker 3: Here's what she said.
Speaker 10: I'd say that Elon Musk maybe knows a thing or
Speaker 10: two about it, given his immigration history, and given his
Speaker 10: employment base, and given frankly, the role that his companies
Speaker 10: are playing not just here in the United States of America,
Speaker 10: but but across the world, and so we need access
Speaker 10: to that talent. I think that could be very interesting.
Speaker 10: It maybe be a smart move of the Republican governing
Speaker 10: majority if they could do something for high skilled workers.
Speaker 2: Is she write, Congressman, and should work visas be part
Speaker 2: of this debate?
Speaker 7: I have worked for work visas back when I was
Speaker 7: the ranking member highest Republican on Homeland security appropriations. This
Speaker 7: is something We've got a great talent pool that sometimes
Speaker 7: we are educating in this country and then forcing a way.
Speaker 7: I think Elon Musk is right on this. More importantly,
Speaker 7: President Trump backed him up on this. We've got a
Speaker 7: great talent pool. Let's face it, we are a nation
Speaker 7: of immigrants. We wanted to be done legally, we wanted
Speaker 7: to be done correctly, but We sure don't want to
Speaker 7: educate a great talent pool and then send them back
Speaker 7: to China or to India or anywhere else in the
Speaker 7: world where they can glean the benefits of our great
Speaker 7: educational system. So it is a process. Interestingly enough, the
Speaker 7: pushback we originally got was not from Republicans, was from
Speaker 7: pro labor Democrats who actually tanked a lot of what
Speaker 7: Miss Stevens was talking about in those hearings. So we
Speaker 7: took it right up to the edge many times and
Speaker 7: tried to get it done. It was labor Democrats who
Speaker 7: scuttled it.
Speaker 3: It was not Republicans right up to the edge. Isn't
Speaker 3: that the truth? Congressmen.
Speaker 2: We're spending a lot of time this week on Bloomberg
Speaker 2: talking about.
Speaker 3: Winners and losers from the year.
Speaker 2: On Wall Street, and among the biggest gainers, we saw
Speaker 2: our companies, you know a little bit about Constellation Vistra
Speaker 2: nuclear power providers that are suddenly in high demand because
Speaker 2: of data centers, because of the need for clean renewable
Speaker 2: energy to run data centers that are apparently going to
Speaker 2: help pioneer the way forward when it comes to AI.
Speaker 2: This is something I know is close to your heart
Speaker 2: and you've worked closely on when it comes to utilities
Speaker 2: and nuclear power specifically, what will this new Congress do
Speaker 2: to make good on any bets that Wall Street is
Speaker 2: making that growth is coming.
Speaker 7: Yes, I'm excited. So our listeners know what I do.
Speaker 7: I'm the chairman of the Energy and Water Subcommittee of
Speaker 7: Appropriations that funds the Department of Energy, funds all of
Speaker 7: the nuclear power and new nuclear technologies. This is what
Speaker 7: I do in Congress. I've had the privilege of speaking
Speaker 7: with Elon Musk about this. I've spoken with other folks.
Speaker 7: I've had one on one conversations with President Trump in
Speaker 7: his first administration, actually even on Air Force one about
Speaker 7: this and wrote a paper for him. Chris Wright, the
Speaker 7: new incoming Secretary of Energy, very bright, very capable, very
Speaker 7: solicitous of nuclear. He has previously sat on the board
Speaker 7: of some nuclear companies. So I am bush on new nuclear.
Speaker 7: But what does that mean? That means, Joe, we have
Speaker 7: got to get it right. There's a lot of designs
Speaker 7: out there, there are a lot of dollars out there.
Speaker 7: If you look at the fiscal twenty twenty five bill
Speaker 7: that I wrote, I structured it on appropriations to basically
Speaker 7: we continue to fund new nuclear about nine billion dollars
Speaker 7: eight point nine billion dollars specifically. Specifically for that, we've
Speaker 7: got to make a delineation. Though we need big new
Speaker 7: nuclear like the Vocal plant, we need to build big plants,
Speaker 7: we need to build smaller plants, and we're looking at microreactors.
Speaker 7: The bottom line is American technology in this area is superior.
Speaker 7: Our adversaries are moving ahead in this meaning Russia and China,
Speaker 7: but our friends are as well, the French, the South Koreans.
Speaker 7: They are moving into this sector and doing a good job.
Speaker 7: The bottom line is I think we need public profit partnerships.
Speaker 7: We need to invest in that. I do think the
Speaker 7: markets will respond to that. We have just got to
Speaker 7: make sure we picked the right technologies. If we pick
Speaker 7: the wrong ones, we will lose.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good answer, Congressman, I've got less than
Speaker 2: a minute. Is Donald Trump on board with nuclear?
Speaker 7: I think so. Donald Trump is great, He's on all
Speaker 7: of the above. When I'm going to do is create
Speaker 7: an additional an eighth energy caucus. I've got several in Congress.
Speaker 7: I'm going to call this the American Dominance in Energy Caucus.
Speaker 7: It's designed to parallel Donald Trump's Energy Council that Governor
Speaker 7: Burgham is going to chair. The reason we want to
Speaker 7: do that is make sure that all of the above
Speaker 7: means all of the above.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast.
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