1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: of views expressed here do not represent those of I 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: heat as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: may not even represent my own. And nothing contained in 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: to use any type of drug. Welcome Psychoactive listeners. This 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: podcast episode is a really really special treat for me 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: for for a number of reasons. I mean, first of all, 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: the guests today, Dr Andrew Wile is internationally famous, tensive 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: millions of people know his name, have read his books, 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: have watched his videos. And that's not because of so 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: much of the stuff about drugs. It's because of his 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: work on integrative medicine, on basically integrating the best of 17 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: conventional medicine and alternative medicine in really remarkable ways. He's 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: written about a dozen books, been translated to dozens of languages. 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: You know, everything from healthy eating to us spontaneous healing, 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: to spontaneous happiness, to stuff about diets, to stuff about cancer, 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: to you name it really about how to lead a healthier, 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: better life. But the real reason I asked Andy t 23 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: beyond there's actually two reasons is that before he really 24 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: emerged as the pioneering figure in integrative medicine and started 25 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: all the writing and started a medical program about this, 26 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: he wrote a trio of books about drugs psychoactive drugs 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: that were formative for me and formative for a huge 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: number of people beginning in the nineteen seventies. Uh, and 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: how we think about drugs and alteration consciousness. And then 30 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: the last reason quite frankly, I wanted to have a 31 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: yahn Andy, is because going back thirty idea years ago, Um, 32 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: you played a major role in my life, not just 33 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: um your intellectual influence, but as I was going through 34 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: probably the greatest emotional trauma and physical trauma of my life, 35 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: you played a pivotal role by helping me see how 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: they were really integrated with one another. So maybe we'll 37 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,839 Speaker 1: have a chance to get into that. So Andy, thank 38 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: you so much. I mean I have to say too, 39 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: is that one of the things I really admired about you, 40 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: is that, even as you become this globally famous person 41 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: talking about food and diet and health, you've never shied 42 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: from putting out the most provocative and I think correct 43 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: ideas about drugs. And that goes back to I guess 44 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: when you were just what a college student or something 45 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: like that and beginning to study all this. So what 46 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: were the origins for you about thinking and talking about 47 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: drugs in the ways that has such an influence? Oh gee, 48 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: I told some of that story in my first book, 49 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: The Natural Mine. But I've read about mescaline, uh, right 50 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: after I graduated from high school, and I just fascinated 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: me and I wanted to know more about it, and 52 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: so I began reading everything I could and asking people 53 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: if they knew anything about the psyched that I think 54 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: the word psychedelic wasn't even used then. And um, as 55 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: an undergraduate at Harvard, I majored in botany and had 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: the good fortune to be mentored by Richard Schultz, who 57 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: was the godfather of modern ethnobotany. And you know, as 58 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: I began studying that and learned learning about psychoactive plants, 59 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: it struck me that there was a great dearth of 60 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: knowledge about them, and people in the medical field scientific 61 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: field really had not studied them, did not know what 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: they were talking about. And that was certainly true of cannabis, 63 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: you know, it was true of the psychedelics, and so 64 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: it fascinated me to try to get reliable information about them. 65 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: And as you know, um, well, I I experimented personally 66 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: with mescal and psychedelics while I was an undergraduate. But 67 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: then in my last year of medical school, I organized 68 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: and carried out the first double blind human experiments with marijuana, 69 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: and I you know, at the conclusion of that study, 70 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: mainly it was to show that you could study marijuana 71 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: on a laboratory and get away with it, because many 72 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: people said it was impossible. And we concluded that marijuana 73 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: was a relatively mild and toxican that in people who 74 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: were familiar with its effects, you couldn't really show uh, 75 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: deficits and performance. Um And I thought that marijuana would 76 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: be legalized within ten years, that it was just a 77 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: matter of getting the correct information out there. Yeah, sorry, 78 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: it took so long, Andy, boy, was I wrong? Well, 79 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: at least it's happening, and at least we're one of 80 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: the first countries. I mean, Colorado Washington were the first states, 81 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: even before other countries started doing it. But one thing 82 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: that hasn't changed is you still can't get to National 83 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: Suit on Health to really spend any money to look 84 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: at the medical benefits of marijuana. Yeah, what's it gonna 85 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: take to get it out of ski to one. You know, 86 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: it may just become increasingly irrelevant as more and more 87 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: states move towards legalizing this stuff, and the absurdity of 88 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: federal prohibition just persists. I mean, there's even some ambivalence 89 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: about moving out of schedule one to schedule too. I 90 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: think the real objective is basically just to deschedule it 91 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: and treat it like any other substance, and then the 92 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: pharmacy companies can come up with their specific versions of it. 93 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: But by and large, you know, the cat is out 94 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: of the bag or whatever the metaphor is. So I 95 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: think we're moving forward there. You know. Now, you also 96 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: at that point in your life you were interacting. I mean, 97 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: Timothy Leary and Richard Albert who became ron Dust were there. 98 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: They were doing those experiments. As those things began to 99 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: evolve into less than scientific experiments, but you were trying 100 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: these things and then all this leads to you going 101 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: down into Latin American the Amazon, and uh, how did 102 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: that shape who you became in subsequent years? It was 103 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: a very great influence. First of all, travel has been 104 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: a big part of my life, and I think there's 105 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: no substitute for spending time at other cultures and seeing 106 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: that there are other ways of of interpreting reality. Uh, 107 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: and whether that's about drugs and or health and medicine, 108 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: it's I think a problem in America is that so 109 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: many Americans really have no experience of of anything outside 110 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: of it. One of the things that I learned in 111 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: my looking at other cultures views of drugs and drug 112 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: plants is that every culture says that some drugs are 113 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: okay and we're going to use them, and other people's 114 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: drugs are not okay and we're going to prohibit them 115 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: and try to make them go away. But there's really 116 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: no agreement from culture to culturists to which are the 117 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: okay drugs and which are they not okay drugs. So 118 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: that was an interesting perspective to say. Yeah, I mean, 119 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: we've also talked about plants, his allies and plant allies. 120 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: What did you mean by that? Well, I think that 121 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: plants can be very useful to us, and I feel 122 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: that it's foolish to try to banish a plant or 123 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: demonize a plant, as we've done with cannabis. You know, 124 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: that is a multi use plant that only wants to 125 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: serve human beings. It lets us manipulate its genome, It 126 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: produces fiber, medicine, edible oil, uh and intoxicant. And yet 127 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: in our culture, we've tried to banish that plan and 128 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: make it go away. And that's stupid. We let a 129 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, a multibillion dollar industry and hemp text will 130 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: slip away to China, and a multimillion dollar industry and 131 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: edible hemp products go to Canada just because of that 132 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: stupid attitude that we've got another plant that I looked 133 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: at a lot as coca. I think that's a perfect 134 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: example of how to go completely wrong in the relationship 135 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: with a drug plan. When Europeans first came to South America, 136 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: they saw native people's chewing coca, they thought it was 137 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: a satanic habit and tried to stamp it out. And 138 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: then they realized they can get more work out of 139 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: natives if they let them chew it and taxed it 140 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: and then European scientists got cocaine out of it and 141 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: released it to the world as a wonderful thing, you know, 142 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: created a wave of cocaine addiction, uh, and then blame 143 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: the plant for this and the ultimate steps then trying 144 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: to stop native people from using their sacred plant. I mean, 145 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: just ridiculous. There's obviously been these issues of class and 146 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: ethnicity and race. I mean, oftentimes, when we look at 147 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: why certain substances and band and others are tolerated, has 148 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: less to do with the relative risk and dangers of 149 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: these substances than with who uses and who is perceived 150 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: to use these substances. And we've seen this in the 151 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: US with cocaine and opium and even alcohol in some 152 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: respects and cannabis. But I think in Latin America you 153 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: had these sort of westernized elites looking down their noses 154 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: at the coca chewing indios and wanting to ban that stuff. Exactly. 155 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: At one point, the Europeans sent in people from the 156 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: World Health Organization to give Stanford Bennett and Wexler intelligence 157 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: tests to Andian natives UH and try to blame low 158 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: scores on their use of coca caused mental deterioration, and 159 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: that was justification for eradicating it. And with cannabis in 160 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: the US, it was introduced by way of Mexican migrant 161 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: workers in the South and black jazz musicians starting in 162 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: New Orleans, and that was those, you know, and then 163 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: later became associated with political radicals and hippies. So it 164 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: was those associations that made the dominant culture view it 165 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: in a certain way. You know, I'm thinking back, there's 166 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: another drug plant substance um. You know. I remember you 167 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: and I first met back in seven I just started 168 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: teaching at Princeton. I was teaching a drug policy seminar. 169 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: You were just beginning on your integrative medicine work and 170 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: still very connected to drug stuff. And so I invite 171 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: you to give a talk at the university, and I 172 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: remember you invited your parents up from Philadelphia to be 173 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: in the audience. And I'm expecting you to talk all 174 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: about marijuana and cannabis and messlin psychedelics, and you spent 175 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: half the talk talking about coffee. So what was that about? Well, 176 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: it just struck me. You know, first of when people 177 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: offer me coffee, I often say I don't touch hard drugs. 178 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: I'm not a coffee user. And I think coffee is 179 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: a quite strong drug, and many people who use it 180 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: have no awareness at all that it's a drug, let 181 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: alone a strong one that causes physical addiction and many users, 182 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: and it just is one of the cultural incongruities that 183 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: I like to get people to focus on. It just 184 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: points up how inconsistent we are in our attitudes about 185 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: psychoactive substances. Yet it's a vast majority of people who 186 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: drink coffee seemed to do so in a way that 187 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: doesn't really undermine health. And there are some health benefits 188 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: associated with coffee, right, there's certainly our health benefits associated 189 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: with coffee. But when I was in active clinical practice, 190 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: I used to say that I produced about one miracle 191 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: cure a week just by getting someone to stop drinking coffee. 192 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: And it can be caffeine. I remember a friend of 193 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: mine who had serious knee problems, and he went to 194 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: a half dozen doctors, some who recommended various forms of surgery, 195 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: and then finally somebody quarrying about his diet, and he 196 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: revealed that he was drinking a six pack of diet 197 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: coke every day. The doctor said, stop that, and then 198 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: knee pain went away. So I mean it's basically the 199 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: caffeine and coffee, which is a key ingredient, or is 200 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: a caffee plus other stuff. Well, it's caffeine plus other 201 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: things because other forms of caffeine tea does not. You 202 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: don't see that as that's such an association of physical 203 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: addiction with tea consumption, and the stimulation of tea is different, 204 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: possibly because it's the caffeine is modified by other substances 205 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: and tem We know, I've seen you, know, I remember 206 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: you being an advocate for drinking tea instead of coffee 207 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: and green tea, and then I've seen you in recent 208 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: years getting very excited about uh much a tea. You 209 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: even have a little dot com website where this is. 210 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: But so, what's so special about macha and can that 211 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: actually be abused as well or is it pretty difficult 212 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: to do? So I've never seen anyone abused much. First 213 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: of all, it's expensive, so it's a luxury item. And uh, 214 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: I guess cocaine is too, and people certainly abuse that. 215 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: But mauches is a beautiful color. It's brilliant green. It's 216 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: the only form of tea in which you consume the 217 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: whole leaf. It's got a higher content of antioxidants and 218 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: other healthful substances. And it's got a fascinating cultural history 219 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: associated with then Buddhism and with Samurais and with the 220 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: ceremony and uh, something that I like very much. We'll 221 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: be talking more after we hear this ad. Go back 222 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: to coca, right, I mean sometimes you know, I mean 223 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: Coca cola, right. Hang. I don't know whether it was 224 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: Litto's cocaine or or coca leaf extract in it until 225 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred and so far as we know, there was 226 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: no major problem, any bigger problem with co cola addiction 227 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 1: when it had cocaine or cocaine, and then then there 228 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: is now. I mean, I sometimes wonder would we all 229 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: be better off if you know, Coca Cola would puts 230 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: a coca back in it and maybe substituted for caffeine. 231 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: What do you think I have long advocated for introduction 232 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: of coca I think it's got many potential therapeutic uses. 233 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: I think it would be a very good thing to 234 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: have to teach people how to use coca the whole leaf, uh, 235 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: and why it is different from and a much safer 236 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: thing to use than isolated cocaine, and if it would 237 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: replace coffee in our society more globally, I think that 238 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: could be a good thing. I think it is it 239 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: is less less associated with it with jangling stimulation and 240 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: aggressive energy that can happen with too much coffee consumption. 241 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: And I don't want to trash coffee, as you know. 242 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: Even my general belief is that there are no good 243 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: or bad drugs. They're only good or bad relationships with drugs. Yeah, 244 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that was really a pivotal idea 245 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: that you put forward in that first book, The Natural Mind, 246 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: and and carried forward. Right. Then, on some level, people 247 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 1: all having innate need to alter their states of consciousness, right, 248 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: and the different plants and drugs are useful vehicles for 249 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: doing this, And it's about the relationship you have with 250 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: these substances. Yeah. And there are of course non drug 251 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: ways of altering consciousness that may be preferable. You know. 252 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: It's everything from um skydiving to sex, to music to fasting. 253 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, there's endless ways to alter conscious and that 254 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: drugs are very convenient because they work very rapidly and 255 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: don't require a lot of work, and they also have 256 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: their disadvantages. But I think the root idea here is 257 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: that alteration of consciousness is a human need and drive, 258 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: and that if a society doesn't come to terms with 259 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: that in some way, it's going to get into trouble, 260 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: as I think we have. And which of the most 261 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: successful societies that achieving that sort of insight, you know? Uh? 262 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: I think traditional societies, indigenous societies are much better at 263 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: that than we are. And in many cultures you can 264 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: see still there has been stable use of psychoactive plants 265 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: um causing no problems, and then offer we've come in 266 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: and meddled with those societies and created the kinds of 267 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: problems we have here. An example is opium use in 268 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: countries like Afghanistan, for example, in Iran, which is a 269 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: very stable culture, opium was mostly smoked by older men 270 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: when they had stopped working, and it was a social drug, 271 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: not closing problems. And the US went into these countries 272 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: and tried to eradicate opium and that use was replaced 273 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: by heroin use and younger people. So I think that's 274 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: there are many examples of that kind of thing where 275 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: our shortsightedness has has backfired and led to worse problems 276 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: than were there to begin with, right, you're reminding me, 277 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: there was this classic article by Joe Westernmire and the 278 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: Archives of General Psychiatry, maybe forty years ago more, and 279 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: he called it the pro heroin Effects of anti Opium Loves, 280 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: pointing out that both in Southwest and Southeast Asia, how 281 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: when these governments um suppressed when had been legal opium monopolies. Uh, 282 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: that what happened was, you know, people still wanted the opioid, 283 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: but they went to the drugs that could be more 284 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: easily smuggled, condensed, you know, in this sort of way, 285 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: are hidden from the authorities, and that was had horrifying impacts, 286 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: especially when HIV and injection drug use came around in 287 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: the nine eighties and nineties, you know. So no, no, 288 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: it was definitely that element, you know. But I mean also, 289 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: like you know, with with with a thing with drugs, 290 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: as you said, right, is that the upside is that 291 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: there were fairly easy and accessible way to achieve some 292 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: not just mild, but sometimes substantial alterations of consciousness. But 293 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: that's also their downside, right, that people can go to 294 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: them too easily. Um. But one thing I've heard you 295 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: talk about at times is how one of the benefits 296 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: of these drugs, whether it's cannabis or psychedelics especially, isn't 297 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: helping one appreciate insights or or potential uh that then 298 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: one can accomplish without the use of these drugs. Yeah, 299 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: I think that's especially true of psychedelics. They can show 300 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: you possibilities that you otherwise would never have believed in. 301 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: But when they wear off, you don't necessarily know how 302 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: to get back there, how to maintain that, and you 303 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: have to find other ways to do it. But I 304 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: think that's the magic of psychedelics. And you know, everyone 305 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: talks about them now is being useful for mental health conditions, 306 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: But I see tremendous uh widespread applications of them in 307 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: physical medicine as well and chronic pain and autoimmune disease. 308 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: I think they're quite remarkable. Yeah, I've heard you talk 309 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: about some of your personal experiences, the ways in which 310 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: psychedelics had some physical impact on you. Well, you know 311 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: a famous one that's been quoted many times. It is 312 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: my instant loss of a cat allergy lifelong cat allergy 313 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: as a result of an LSD experience in which I 314 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: was feeling terrific and uh, I interacted with a cat 315 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: and had no allergic response and never have since. So uh, 316 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'd love to open at some point and 317 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: an allergy lost clinic using that. Uh. By the way, ethan, 318 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: have you you know that also the the there's less 319 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: written about the the spiritual potential, the potential for spiritual development. 320 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: But you know, if I don't know whether you're familiar 321 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 1: with this, have you seen the the YouTube clip housewife 322 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: on LSD. No, no, please google that and all your listenership. 323 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: Just google housewife on ls D on YouTube. It's a 324 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: video of an experiment. I think it's from the nineteen fifties, 325 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: and it's like youatric clinic in l a of a 326 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: housewife who takes a dose of LSD. Everything is so 327 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: beautiful and lovely and and a lie. I wish I 328 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: could talk in technicolor. You can't see it being never 329 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: or not. I feel sorry for you. You know. It 330 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: was striking some years ago when Roland Griffiths said Hopkins 331 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: and others did this study testing the spiritual effects of 332 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: psychedelics in a fairly scientific way, and I think it 333 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: helped open things up into other areas well. It's all 334 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: happening now. Who would have I mean, I'm quite an 335 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: As I saw last month, Vogue had a cover story 336 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: on psilocybin mushrooms. I mean, if that's not mainstream, I 337 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: don't know what it is. Well, there was a period 338 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: right back in the late fifties or early sixties when 339 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: Gordon Wasson was exploring when this stuff was showing up 340 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: on the cover of Life magazine and Carry Grant and 341 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: other famous actors and actresses were trying these things. And 342 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: then of course it all got blown out. But it 343 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: looks like maybe this you know, people have learned the 344 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: lessons from the past, and they're going to be more 345 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: careful about how this uh, how this thing evolves. The 346 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: interest is so tremendous out there. In the past few years, 347 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: when I was traveling a lot and speaking all over 348 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: the country, no matter what I was talking about, whether 349 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: the subject was integrated medicine or healthy aging or nutrition, 350 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: I would get questions about psychedelics. You know, this is 351 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: really on people's minds. So if you're Integrative Medicine Center 352 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: in Arizona, right you have thousands of graduates, they're sort 353 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: of spreading the world all around the country, in the world, 354 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: what are they being taught and what are they teaching. 355 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: There's about things like cannabis and about psychedelics or even 356 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: other psychoactive substances. There's quite a bit of curricular material 357 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: on cannabis, on medical applications of cannabis, and they're also 358 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: we have teaching about psychedelics, and a lot of people 359 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: in our training programs are interested in in learning how 360 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: to be psychedelic guides and how to refer patients to 361 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: psychedelic therapy. So we are trying to accommodate that interest 362 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: m hm. And so will there be are you doing 363 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: any research on psycholics at the university? Now? There was 364 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: research going on there um on psilocybin, but I think 365 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: that stopped now and whether there will be more in 366 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: the future, I don't know, uh huh. And when you 367 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: sort of take what's going on now and you go 368 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: back to your days in the uh what was it 369 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: the early seventies or something, traveling around the Amazon region 370 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: and I presume doing psychedelics with indigenous groups and all this, 371 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, what's how do you compare can Trashed what 372 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: those groups were doing when you were in your younger 373 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: years and observing this with what's going on now, with 374 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: all this new research in the U s and elsewhere. Well, 375 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: you know that that what I saw was mostly use 376 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: of psychedelic plants by shamans, and they would deal with 377 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: patients who came to them or clients that came to them. UM. 378 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: I think what's happening in our culture now is that 379 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: the possibilities of psychedelic therapy are being embraced very widely 380 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: by uh, you know, much much more diverse groups of people, UM, 381 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: and particularly particular interest on using it for conditions like 382 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: anxiety and depression and PTSD and o c D and 383 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: so forth. And I think it's you know, we're going 384 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: to see these things made available for therapeutic use fairly quickly. 385 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: How important is it that they're being done with the 386 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: assistance have trained psychotherapists or counselors or whatever, as opposed 387 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: to doing you on your own or with a friend. 388 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: I think that's all all important. I mean, it's fine 389 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: if people want to do things on their own with friends, 390 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: that's fine. But for you know, therapeutic use, I think 391 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: it's it's very very important that you do this with 392 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: a qualified guide. And I'm happy to see now that 393 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: there are a few institutions who are offering training programs 394 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: in how to be psychedelic guides? Are there other I mean, 395 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: you know you're seeing the research being done a lot 396 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: with psilocybin. I think with mescalin we'll think we'll get 397 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: into m d M A in a moment. Not so 398 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: much with LST, probably because it still has that bad 399 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: rep left over. Are there other planted substances of psychedelic 400 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: power that you think might prove well? Actually ayahuasca d MT, 401 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: I mean, are the ones that you think are going 402 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: to prove interesting in the in the future that they're 403 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: not really doing the work on, you know what you 404 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: mentioned ayahuasca d m T certainly, but also now there 405 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: are a lot of pharmacologists and pharmaceutical companies that are 406 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: working to develop analogs of some of these compounds that 407 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: may have more specific corapeutic effects and fewer of what 408 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: are perceived as adverse effects. And one of the things, 409 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: Ethan that's I think driving this is that our health 410 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: care system is so burdened with conditions that don't respond 411 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: to conventional treatment, things like chronic pain syndromes and and PTSD, 412 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: and there's a real desperation to find methods that work 413 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: and the possibility that some of these compounds may be 414 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: very useful for that, I think is making them much 415 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: more acceptable. M h. I mean I can imagine that 416 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: you're that you're fairly critical of the widespread use of 417 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: these antidepressants, the prozacts and all these other society. But 418 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: is there any role for them? I mean, do they 419 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: help some people? Is it something that should be out 420 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: there still? I think that there are some of these 421 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: psychiatric drugs that are useful, particularly for treatment of bipolar 422 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: disorder for example. But the antidepressants have a pretty poor 423 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: track record. You know, they don't live up to the 424 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: claims made for them by manufacturers, and the theory that 425 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: they're based on I think is weak. Um, if you 426 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: look at the ads and psychiatric journals for the drugs, 427 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: you would think that there'd be no depression or anxiety anymore, 428 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: but that's not how it is. So I think that 429 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: there is a great need to find better methods and 430 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: that those will fall by the wayside. Yeah. Well, I mean, 431 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: we know the psychedelics as well as ketamine, which is 432 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: the psychedelic in the way, are showing interesting results. Are 433 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: there other things that you recommend or suggest to patients? 434 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: Who are struggling with serious depression. I think there's a 435 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: lot of new treatments. The one that I'm interested in 436 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: is transcranial magnetic stimulation. You know, it's a non drug approach, 437 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: relatively safe, and really good data on that as being useful. 438 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: There's a quantitative e g. Neuro feedback and novel method 439 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: that you know offers great promise. UM. Now, since there's 440 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: a lot of things out there that you know, are 441 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: not yet in the etical mainstream but show great promise 442 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: that their cost effective, TOM effective M. I mean, I've 443 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: also seen this stuff about the important role of exercise 444 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: in dealing with depression. But I'm wondering if any of 445 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: the kind of lower potency, more common stimulants, the tease 446 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: kind of you know, all these other sort of South 447 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: American stimulant plants, is there anything there in terms of 448 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: addressing depression. I frankly, among the stimulant plants, I would 449 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: say no. UM. But there may be other things out there, 450 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: but I don't think any of them have the power 451 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: of the psychedelics or you know, some of the major 452 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical drugs. I just don't see anything out there that 453 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: works the way except However, kava for anxiety. You know, 454 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: that's a very significant, powerful herbal remedy, quite safe, and 455 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: it's a South specific thing. Yeah, oceany. It's a root 456 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: of a pepper plant used as a social recreational intoxicant 457 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: than in many of those island cultures and now of 458 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: available here. It's quite safe. Uh. It is a very 459 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: effective anti anxiety agent, much better than any of the 460 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: drugs that we use for that. Let's take a break 461 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: here and go to an ad h. Let me bring 462 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: you back to the issue of stimulus. Right when we 463 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: talked about caffeine, coffee, tea, much as things like that. Um, 464 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: but you know, there's also a very interesting history with 465 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: good old dextroamphetamine amphetamy, right, and for a long time, 466 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: but we've seen it. It's use in military. I think 467 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: there was a long period when long distance pilots in 468 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: the US I think Navy would be allowed to use 469 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: extra amphetamine. And they found nobody ever had an accident 470 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: within effect. The principal cause of accidents was people suffering 471 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,719 Speaker 1: from fatigue. Um, it wasn't from this. And I've sometimes 472 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: wondered if you were to construct not you personally, but 473 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: but a huge study where like ten thousand people were 474 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: to just continue the normal life to control group, and 475 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: ten thousand people would be taking a five milligram dexter 476 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: amphetamine every day and then they'd be evaluated after three months, 477 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: six months, a year, five years on various quality of 478 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: life indicators as well as any harms. I sometimes wonder 479 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 1: whether or not the group that was taking the UH 480 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: the low dos amphetamine every day over many years might 481 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: land up faring better than the control group. Well, that 482 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: that is possible, even and you know, there is no 483 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: there's a great enthusiasm for some of these newer ones, 484 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: like adderall for example, and incredibly widespread use among students. 485 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: And I've talked to many UH college students who say 486 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: that they can't afford not to take adderall because they 487 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: know the person next to them is taking it and 488 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: that's going to give them an edge on studying and exams, 489 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: which is true, right. I mean, it's a short term 490 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: performance enhancer for everything from sports to study into exam taking. 491 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: It's like with many of these things, if you just 492 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: use it occasionally in the right ways, it's probably perfectly okay, 493 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: if not good exactly. What about fighting to get a 494 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: coca chewing gum um so that people for their afternoon 495 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: break instead of taking that coffee which is harsh on 496 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: their stomach, or the diet coke um. Do you think 497 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: that could work? Oh, I definitely think it could work. 498 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: I've written a scientific paper about that, and I tried 499 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: to get that going. This is years ago, and now 500 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: there is It looks as if Columbia might be close 501 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: to legalizing coca uh and commercializing it. You know, there's 502 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: been some effort in Bolivia, less so in Peru, but 503 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: the Colombian seemed quite enthusiastic about it, and maybe you know, 504 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: this will stinally start to happen. Cocus in schedule to 505 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: not schedule one, so you know, it is technically available 506 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: for medical use, but there's no source of it here. 507 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: But I would love to see that happen. I think 508 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: it is such a useful plant and it's just a 509 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: shame that we've been denied the use of it. Yeah. No, 510 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: I mean I think the former president of Bolivia, Able Morales, 511 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 1: you know, who had been ahead of the coca growers 512 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: union beforehand. I mean, he was a big advocate for 513 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: this thing, and he would even go to the United 514 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: Nations meetings in Vienna and publicly chew the coca leaf. 515 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: The problem, however, was he wasn't much when it came 516 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: to the diplomacy of advocacy for this stuff, so it 517 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: never went anywhere, you know, I mean, while perusing a 518 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: shambles politically. So hopefully Columbia can move forward on this. 519 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: It might. It's there, there's progress there now. You know, 520 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: one of your other books that you wrote in the 521 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: early years, which I remember taking to read with me 522 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: on my honeymoon, was The Marriage of the Sun in 523 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: the Moon, right, and you know, you start off with 524 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: hunting for mushrooms and you're looking at different types of 525 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: alter states of consciousness. But then the next chapter was 526 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: about eating mangoes in Central America. I mean just explained 527 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: that one. Well, I get high eating very right mangoes, 528 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: and that's just an example of, you know, another way 529 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: of altering consciousness. I think they're just infinite ways of 530 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: doing it. So, um, that book was really essays about 531 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: my period of travels, most the Latin Americus, some elsewhere, 532 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: but just about things that I'd done and seeing that 533 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: I found made me high. Everything from being in the 534 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: Native American sweat lodges to watching total eclipses of the sun. Yeah, 535 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: actually I remember you and I went together on a 536 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: trip to this southern coast of Turkey for a solar 537 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: eclipse about fifteen twenty years ago, and it was it 538 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: was my only experience of that and and it was 539 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: really quite traumatic when it happened. Was that kind of 540 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: special sort of altered states. I forgot we had all 541 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: that history. So talk to me about the placebo and 542 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: placebo effect and how how central I mean it seems 543 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: to play. I mean, I guess there are ethical issues, 544 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: and the extent to which physicians can use it in 545 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: many ways are recommended. A bigger problem is that physicians 546 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: are just uncomfortable with it because they don't understand it. 547 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: They think placebo medicine is a form of tricking patients, 548 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: and that's not how it is. Placebo responses are pure 549 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: healing responses from within. To me, that's the meat of medicine. 550 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: That's what you want to make happen more the time, 551 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, I'm mostly here the word placebo used in 552 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: phrases like how do you know that's not just the 553 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: placebo effect, And the most interesting word there is just 554 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: or we have to rule out the placebo effect. No, 555 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: you want to be ruling it in. You want to 556 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: make it happen more the time. I'm happy to see 557 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: that in fairly recent years, and this is a result 558 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: of functional MRI scans of brains that we've been able 559 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: to you know, people have been able to show that 560 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: placebo responses are associated with activity in particular brain regions, 561 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: and this makes them more real. Uh, two doctors. So 562 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: I think the views on them are changing. You know, 563 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: I never give patients sugar pills, but I often give them, 564 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: say herbs that I think are weaker forms of medicine 565 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: and pharmaceutical drugs, but I believe in them because I 566 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: know they work, and I can convey that belief to patients. 567 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: And I don't really care how much of a favorable 568 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: response is due to the intrinsic action of that herb, 569 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: and how is due to a mind mediated mechanism and whatever. 570 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm just want to see the good result m H. 571 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: And it can operate both on the planet. I mean, 572 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: in dealing in terms of immense pain or pleasure or 573 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: absolutely the fact that there's there's accumulating evidence that a 574 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: great deal of chronic pain is not really arising from 575 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: the body it's a problem in the brain that the 576 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: brain is misinterpreting receptions from the body, and there are 577 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: ways of retraining the brain to make that go away, 578 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: and that may have profound implications for getting us out 579 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: of the opioid crisis that we're in at the moment. 580 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: And you've had personal experience of that even Yeah. No, 581 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I it's funny in my life 582 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: with this thing. I remember it was you were part 583 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: of a working group of academics I had at Princeton 584 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: in the early nineties trying to think through it over 585 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: the optimal drug policy. And one of these sessions, you know, 586 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: I had had a recurrence of really bad back pain. 587 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: I had been diagnosed with her need discs, and uh, 588 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: you started advising me at that time and you suggested 589 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: I read this book by John Sarno, Feeling Back Pain, 590 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: And that was really pivotal in my life. I mean, 591 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: it was coming to realize it wasn't the hurting yet 592 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: disc that were causing the pain, but rather underlying emotional 593 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: angst that was turning itself into physical pain. Yeah, very dramatic. Yeah, 594 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: I think I think that view is gaining more ground 595 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: these days. Yeah, it was interesting because I thought you 596 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: was Sarno's book coming out and uh, and then I 597 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: remember when you wrote your breakout book, Spontaneous Healing, the 598 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: chapter on back pain was ethan story. And then I 599 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: remember my you know, I was on TV all the 600 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: time talking about drug post before, but my only time 601 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: ever being on OPRAH was sitting in the front row 602 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: is your patient talking about the back pain experience? And 603 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: I thought, guys, you're on OPRAH. That's gonna change. Everybody's 604 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: going to see the light. But it's amazing how long 605 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: it takes for that type of insight and wisdom to 606 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: really get out there, right. You know. That's what I 607 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: said when I did my Marijan experiments that I thought 608 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: it would be legalized in five years. It was just 609 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: a matter of getting the correct information and out. And 610 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: I saw, however, that people believe what they want to believe, 611 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: and don't believe that they don't want to believe, and 612 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: you can show them all kinds of stuff, but they 613 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: don't change their views. It was also include serious physicians 614 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: who should know better, right exactly. And one of the 615 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: things I think moved me was the evidence that showed 616 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: that for people who had these herniated disks. The people 617 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: who had surgery had an immediate relieving of the pain 618 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: that was dramatic, but that if you compared them three 619 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: years later with people who have not had surgery, they 620 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: had the same incidents of pain all over again. But 621 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: it was also I remember, it was hard for me 622 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: to believe that that intensity of pain and the fact 623 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: that I couldn't even stand up straight and that my 624 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: toes were numb, it was hard to believe that there 625 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: was not some physical cause for that saying. And that 626 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: was the leap that had to be taken you. But 627 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: you took it. I took it, and I got there, 628 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: and it changed my whole understanding of the of mind 629 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: body relationship in a in a in a really important way. 630 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: In fact, I think it was just a few months 631 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: after that that I took M D m A for 632 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: the first time, and that was I think a very 633 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: important thing for me in my in my marriage at 634 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: the time. But I have a question for you now. 635 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: M D m A has not worked for me for 636 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: the last fifteen years. What might work? Why not? First 637 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: of all, why does he keep working for other people 638 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: for decades and other people who just stopped working and 639 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: then what might be an alternative. Well, I do see 640 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: that pattern. You know, we change as we get older. 641 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: Maybe your biochemistry has changed. I don't know the answer 642 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: to that, but maybe you got what you needed from 643 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: it and it doesn't work anymore. This is what I 644 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: was saying earlier about that these drugs can show you possibilities, 645 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: but then they don't really show you how to maintain 646 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: the possibilities, and you have to work and to find 647 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: some other ways of doing it. Mm hmm. I remember 648 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: you telling some story about um yoga and showing the 649 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: possibilities or something. Yeah, that's a you know classic. I 650 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: was learning to do yoga. This was in the around 651 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: nineteen probably sixty nine seventy, and there was one posture. 652 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't get the plow where you lye on your 653 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: back and try to touch your feet behind your head 654 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: on the floor, and I just could not do that. 655 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: I had was about to give up. I thought I 656 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: was too old, my body was too stiff. I could 657 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: get my toes about a foot from the floor, and 658 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: there was excruciating pain in my neck. And one day, 659 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 1: it was in spring, I took LSD with a group 660 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: of friends in Virginia. It was fabulous day. I felt 661 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: terrific and my body felt totally a lastic and I thought, yee, 662 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: I had to try that. And I lay on my 663 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: back and was lowering my feet and I thought I 664 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: had about a foot to go, and they touched the ground. 665 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it, and there's no pain, and I 666 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: raised them and lowered them. I was just, you know, 667 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: so delighted. The next day, I tried to do it, 668 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: and I got within a foot of the floor, and 669 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: there was excruciating pain in my neck. But now there 670 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: was a difference. I knew it was possible, and I 671 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: was motivated to keep at it. In a few weeks, 672 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: I was able to do it. If I had not 673 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: had that experience, I would have given up. Yeah, I 674 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: wonder you think you can help with our writing blocks, 675 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: that's all. That's a lot harder. Yeah. I've always I've 676 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: always admired an envy you for your incredible I mean, 677 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: you know, you start off being a journalist when you 678 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: were in college, right, and you've been writing ever since 679 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: and just been incredibly prolific. But at this point in 680 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: my life, I'm not that interested in writing very much anymore. 681 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: I think I've said everything I have to say. You know, 682 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: I heard you say that to me fifteen years ago 683 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: and you kept writing, so we'll see. Well, you know 684 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: another thing I remember remember visiting you a two signs 685 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: sometimes in past years, and you always had dogs around. 686 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: And then I heard you saying someplace it means another 687 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: podcast that there's a similarity between cannabis and dogs in 688 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: the relationship to you remember it. Just stand on that 689 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: because I found that fascinating. Well, you know, dogs are 690 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: really unusual. They are the the only animal that has 691 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: thrown in its genetic lot with us. You know, sometime 692 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: in the distant past, dogs decided to co evolved with us, 693 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: and they have adapted behavior and remarkable ways. You're the 694 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: only animal that can hold our gaze, for example, um, 695 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,959 Speaker 1: and you know that's remarkable. And they've learned to read 696 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: human emotions. Well. Cannabis, in a similar way, has decided 697 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: to co evolve with human beings. As far back as 698 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: we can go in history, we can't find truly wild 699 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: hemp that has no association with human beings as far 700 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: back as we have evidence for, it always grew in 701 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: association with human settlements, and it has allowed us to 702 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: manipulate its genome and it wants to live with us 703 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 1: and serve us, and so I say, it's the dog 704 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: of the plant world. Is there something similar with mushrooms 705 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: going on as well? That's more complicated. There certainly is 706 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: a there's a sudden explosion of awareness of mushrooms in 707 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: our culture maybe around the world at the moment that 708 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: people are, you know, becoming fascinated with mushrooms, or more 709 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: species of mushrooms, food, mushrooms being cultivated. There's oldest interest 710 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: in and psychedelic mushrooms. It's a change and consciousness. Whether 711 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: the mushrooms are driving that or it's us, I don't know, 712 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: something's happening. I remember you used to organize these conferences 713 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: to tell your ride mushroom conference until you're right, Colorado. 714 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: Remember that's one time. Remember hearing Paul Stamus give a 715 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: very playful talk about the ways in which some of 716 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: our mushroom spores found a way to keep putting themselves 717 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: in interesting places where human beings gathered, including around the 718 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: local courthouse or something like that. Right, and then Terence 719 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: mckennah had a whole theory around mushrooms and human evolution 720 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: as well. I think, right, yeah, well, there are some people. 721 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: I think he was the chief advocate of the idea 722 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: that it was still psychedelic mushrooms that really provoked the 723 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: leap from apes to humans and development of the modern brain. 724 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: I don't I don't buy that one, but uh a 725 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: lot of people like that idea. Uh huh. How about 726 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: the idea if they came from outer space could be possible? Right, 727 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: there was an old there was an old science fiction 728 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: movie called The Invasion of the Mushroom People. So maybe 729 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: you know there's another fact, which is that you know, 730 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: here we have uh opioids outside but endorphins inside. We 731 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: have cannabis outside um, but the endocannabinant system inside. I 732 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: remember hearing you talk about oxytocin and such. Well, it's 733 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: fascinating the the interconnectedness of the natural world. You know, 734 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: why why do we have receptors in our brain that 735 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: fit molecules made by poppy plants were by hemp plants. 736 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's remarkable, and we have our own idogeneous 737 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: psychedelic probably d m T. To me, that just points 738 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: up some deep, profound relationship between us and the natural world, 739 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: whether it's plants or mushrooms. You know, we're connected. M hm. 740 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: Are you still doing psychedelics yourself? Not really. I mean 741 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: I feel like that that was part of a different 742 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: phase of my life and I don't really feel that 743 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: motivated to use them anymore. I think I got I 744 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: got what I needed to get from them. Yeah, I'm 745 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: sort of torn because, you know, yeah, sometimes it feels 746 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: like psychedelics are wasted on the young. You know that 747 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: they they're all into the colors and this and that. 748 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: But that's the real value of psychedelics, um, you know, 749 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: is about going deeper. And I've analogized it to you know, 750 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 1: growing up fairly traditionally Jewish, and fact, I still fast 751 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: on young people are every year, and I think it's 752 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: a basically a good thing to do, good for the soul, 753 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: good for reflection, and that on some level doing psychedelics 754 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: like once a year is a kind of good sort 755 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: of annual ritual to stir up the emotional intellectual sediment 756 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: that can settle, because that's one thing that psychedelics and 757 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: a higher dose can really do, is stir up all 758 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: sorts of sediment. I do know, as most people I know, 759 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: generally as we age we get more hesitant, and I 760 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: don't know whether it's that we're more wary of it now, 761 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: or it's just that we really did learn everything we did, 762 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: or I don't know. I just find that I'm not 763 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: motivated to do it. Uh. Alan Watts wrote a blurb 764 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 1: for The Natural Mind, my first book, and the last 765 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: line of it was, when you get the message, you 766 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: hang up the telephone. And I sort of feel that, 767 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: you know, that's my sense that I did a lot 768 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: of experimentation with psychedelics, especially in my thirties, forties, fifties, 769 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: and I think I learned from them what I had 770 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,720 Speaker 1: to learn, and I don't I don't feel that I 771 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: need to do that again. But if the opportunity presents itself, 772 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: I mind, I'll say, yeah, yeah. Well, you know the 773 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 1: other book that you did, part I think of your 774 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 1: Andrew Wild's Drug Trilogy, UM, was Chocolate to Morphine. It 775 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: was really a fantastic drug education book. We made sure 776 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: to order use numbers of copies and give them out, 777 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: you know, through Drug Policy Alliance. UM. And I remember 778 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: back in the day the Republican Senator of Florida, Paul Hawkins, 779 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: wanted to have the book banned from schools and all 780 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: this stuff. But it does raise the issue of what 781 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,879 Speaker 1: about the kids, right? I mean, you think about how 782 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: the whole war on drugs is oftentimes justified as one 783 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: great big child production act. But I mean, what's your 784 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: view about what parents should be doing visa the their 785 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: kids on psycleactive drugs. I think they should be exchanging 786 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: truthful information with their kids, and that's why I wrote 787 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: that book, uh, to facilitate that. I don't want to 788 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: make general rules for whether kids should or shouldn't use 789 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: drugs or at what age it's appropriate. Frankly, I'm more 790 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: concerned about the vast medicating of kids with psychiatric drugs. No. 791 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: I think we have no idea what their effects are 792 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: on the developing brain, and we're doing this tremendous experiment 793 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: with our nation's youth. Now. A lot of kids are 794 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: on multiple psychiatric drugs, very strong ones, and as I say, 795 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: we have no idea what the long term effects are. 796 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: I mean, there's also concerns about this growing number of 797 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: synthetic substances, because you know, tendency for younger people just 798 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: kind of be reckless about this thing and pop whatever's around. 799 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: And this incredible proliferation of these synthetic drugs which is 800 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: also I mean obviously not being used as broadly as 801 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: the as the you know, the antidepressants and the really 802 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: enty drugs and things like that, but clearly a concern. Well, 803 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: I think as we move toward legalization or general availability 804 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: of these drugs, it is appropriate to think about, you know, 805 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: what are the rules for younger ages, for people in 806 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: sensitive occupations. I think that's on society is gonna have 807 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: to come to terms with. When I think of the 808 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: few people I know who did psychedelics, either with their 809 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: parents or with their teenage kid, I mean the cases 810 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: I know of, actually we're quite beautiful stories, you know, 811 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: and it's something you can't really talk about. Nobody could 812 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: ever talk about quite openly or publicly. But we tend 813 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 1: to say, you know, we here, we have laws that 814 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: you can't touch marijuana or alcohol to your twenty one, 815 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: and yet there's something about integrating this in perhaps in 816 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: a responsible way. Well, we will see. It's going to 817 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,240 Speaker 1: be an interesting time. I mean it's even a question, 818 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, like growing up Jewish, we're having wine on 819 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: the Sabbath, and then you see buy and large Jews 820 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: having higher rates of drinking but lower rates of alcoholism. 821 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: Whether or not that kind of acculturation really helped to 822 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: uh provide a protective effect. And conversely, I mean, now 823 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: we're a point with cannabis legalization where cannabis is becoming 824 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: so widely accepted. And I fought for this all my life, 825 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: and I feel very proud of the accomplishment, but I 826 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: worry at times about cannabis beginning to be used in 827 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 1: such a cavalier way a that it's specialness begins to fade. 828 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: I mean, do you see that as a risk that's 829 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: probably already happening? And I see that. You know that's 830 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: a risk with psychedelics as well. You think so even 831 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: with psychedelics, Oh, I think that's that's happening. Sure. What 832 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: about the whole microdocing thing. You know, I don't know 833 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: what to make of that. I know a lot of 834 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: people who are doing it and claim that they've gotten 835 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,280 Speaker 1: very good results in terms of enhanced creativity or lowered 836 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: anxiety or improvement of depression. You know, I've tried it 837 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: a bit. It's not something that I was really motivated 838 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:36,760 Speaker 1: to continue with long term, but fascinating to watch it happen. Well, Andy, listen, 839 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: it's great to catch up Thank you so much for 840 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,879 Speaker 1: having this conversation with me. Look forward to seeing you 841 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: before long, okay, and wish you all the vest on 842 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: your your next ventures, even if you think you've given 843 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: up writing U, which I don't really believe. We'll see 844 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,800 Speaker 1: good to talk to you, okay. Take care. Psychoactive is 845 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,319 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's 846 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: hosted by me Ethan Neatleman. It's produced by Katcha Kumkova 847 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 1: and Ben Cabrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 848 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams 849 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick for I Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. 850 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,280 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Belusian and a special thanks 851 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: to Avivit Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. If 852 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,240 Speaker 1: you'd like to share your own stories, comments or ideas, 853 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: please leave us a message at eight three three seven 854 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: seven nine sixty. That's one eight three three psycho zero. 855 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: You can also email us as Psychoactive at protozoa dot 856 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And 857 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: if you couldn't keep track of all this. Find the 858 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: information in the show notes. On the next episode, I'll 859 00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: be talking with Yale law professor James Forman Jr. Who's 860 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: Puliticer Prize winning book, Locking Up Our Own provides a 861 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 1: truly unique perspective on the war on drugs. You know, 862 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: without taking heroin into account, one cannot understand African American 863 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: attitudes towards the drug war. The heroin really devastated Black communities, 864 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: and I think set the stage for some of these 865 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: punitive Black attitudes. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, don't 866 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: miss it.