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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls podcasts, a

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Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the

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Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible

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Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information,

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Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

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Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning

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Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a

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Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session sixty three

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Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be chatting about a topic that unfortunately impacts quite a

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Speaker 1: few of us childhood sexual abuse. Some studies suggest that

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Speaker 1: as many as sixty percent of black girls experience of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault by the age of eighteen, so we definitely

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Speaker 1: need to discuss this today. I'm joined by Jessica Lang.

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Speaker 1: Jessica is a licensed marriage and family therapist in California,

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Speaker 1: currently living in Israel and practicing online. She is passionate

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Speaker 1: about empowering survivors to find peace, happiness, and success in life.

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Speaker 1: Jessica specializes in treating trauma using the mind body connection

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Speaker 1: and helping expats who are having a hard time adjusting

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Speaker 1: to life in their new countries. Jessica and I chatted

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Speaker 1: about some of the common concerns that come up for

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Speaker 1: survivors of childhood sexual abuse, what treatment might look like,

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Speaker 1: how to deal if your child comes to you with

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Speaker 1: a report of abuse, and she shared her favorite resources.

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Speaker 1: If you hear something that you like to share with

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Speaker 1: others as you're listening, please do so on social media

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Speaker 1: using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's our conversation. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today, Jessica, thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me. You're very welcome. I'm very happy to

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Speaker 1: have you here because this is a very important topic.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I have seen a lot of statistics

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Speaker 1: that talk about as bunch as sixty of black girls

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Speaker 1: have experienced sexual assault by the time their age eighteen,

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Speaker 1: So I know that it's something that likely impacts lots

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Speaker 1: of listeners out there. Definitely. Um, it's it's I think

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Speaker 1: the you know, the national averages like one in three

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Speaker 1: girls and one in five boys. So and it's underreported

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Speaker 1: for African Americans, which is all the more tragic I think. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely a topic that needs to discussing. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: your specialty is working with women who women specifically, or

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Speaker 1: women and men. So I I work with UM sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse survivors of all ages, but the people who come

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Speaker 1: to my office tend to be females. So even though

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Speaker 1: I work with males, like boys and girls, I primarily

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Speaker 1: get coming in you know, young girls teams are are

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Speaker 1: adult women. Got it okay? So what are some of

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Speaker 1: the common issues that might come up for women who

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Speaker 1: come to you after they are you know, when they're

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Speaker 1: trying to heal from childhood sexual abuse. Some of the

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Speaker 1: I think the biggest one really is relationship issues, so

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Speaker 1: not knowing how to stand up for themselves or um

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Speaker 1: disconnection UM during sex and not enjoying sex UM. Those

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Speaker 1: are the two main ones that for adults who come

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Speaker 1: in because usually they're suffering from flashbacks, are usually with

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Speaker 1: the you know, when they get touched a certain way

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Speaker 1: triggers it triggers their such response system and they go

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Speaker 1: back in time and so they're at it, they're unable

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Speaker 1: to enjoy sex UM and then just general not being

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Speaker 1: able to stand up for themselves. Um, followed by low

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Speaker 1: self esteem UM, which again kind of goes back into

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Speaker 1: not standing up for themselves but just kind of having

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Speaker 1: a low self worth, doubting themselves, questioning. Those are the

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Speaker 1: biggest ones that I see. So, relationship issues and low

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Speaker 1: self esteem got you. And so I'm wondering, justsica, like,

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Speaker 1: what does treatment typically look like? Like what kinds of

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Speaker 1: things might you do for somebody, like, let's say, for example,

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Speaker 1: the whole issue of not being able to stand up

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Speaker 1: for themselves. What kind of things might you do in

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Speaker 1: therapy to help I've been doing like a lot of

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Speaker 1: affirmations and helping women identify what their strengths are, So

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Speaker 1: making a list and saying Okay, I'm really good at

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Speaker 1: in this, or I'm really kind, I'm really intelligent, saying

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Speaker 1: it over and over again so that they believe, um,

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Speaker 1: that they are you know, worthy, so that when it

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Speaker 1: comes time to standing up for themselves and saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this person is saying this to me, I don't like it.

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Speaker 1: I deserve better. Let's find ways to express yourself, right.

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Speaker 1: So um, and we practiced that in therapy. Also, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was wondering if there was some role playing involved, right,

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Speaker 1: because you know, if you have had difficulty doing that,

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Speaker 1: like even the language might be a difficult thing to

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Speaker 1: kind of come up with to like say no or

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Speaker 1: to stand up for yourself. So it sounds like you

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Speaker 1: do involve some role playing about like, Okay, if this

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Speaker 1: situation happened like this, what might you say in that

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Speaker 1: kind of an issue? Exactly. One of the things too,

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Speaker 1: I was I've been working a lot with clients on

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Speaker 1: is you know, understanding the context so you don't always

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Speaker 1: have to jump in and say something right You're finding

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Speaker 1: the right time to express yourself is also really important,

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Speaker 1: and helping them understand um their own reactions to think

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Speaker 1: so that maybe they can be more empathetic when they're

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Speaker 1: sharing what's going on for them and trying to make

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Speaker 1: change in their relationship. So something else that you mentioned

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Speaker 1: was like difficulty maybe with intimacy with partners, And I'm wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: do you typically have conversations around when it might be

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Speaker 1: best or appropriate to disclose to a partner like that

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Speaker 1: someone has been reviewsed. Yes, definitely. One of the one

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Speaker 1: of the hardest things for per trauma survivors is when

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Speaker 1: do I disclose? Disclose? Do I disclose or they have

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Speaker 1: absolutely no filter and they they share too early. UM

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Speaker 1: and I think both both are kind of examples of

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Speaker 1: and like inability to maintain closeness and not understanding you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of like pushing people away our self sabotage. So

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Speaker 1: when it comes to people who are you know, young

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Speaker 1: girls who are in in relationships and they're trying to decide, Okay,

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Speaker 1: when do I when do I disclose this thing? I

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Speaker 1: think if it's in a loving, safe, trusting relationship, then

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Speaker 1: that's you know, that's when you want to start slowly

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Speaker 1: broaching the subject of something something terrible happened, you know,

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Speaker 1: and we can find the language that we work together

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Speaker 1: and finding the language to use based off of um,

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Speaker 1: the relationship with the partner and even having you know

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Speaker 1: a partner, the partner come in, you know, whatever works

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Speaker 1: for the person in a relationship. But I think and

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Speaker 1: having the relationship be a safe trusting relationship is key

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Speaker 1: and helping them articulate and to figure out is this

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Speaker 1: a safe trusting relationship, which again we'll go back to

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Speaker 1: their self esteem and being able to advocate for themselves.

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Speaker 1: So things we've already kind of worked on in session

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Speaker 1: so that they know Okay, this is an example of

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Speaker 1: an appropriate relationship, and I want I can see myself

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Speaker 1: going further. Let me try to make strides for like

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Speaker 1: an intimacy. Got it. So, even if they came in

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Speaker 1: saying like, I'm having intimacy issues with my partner, you

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Speaker 1: might walk them back to like the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that are leading to the intimacy. You wouldn't necessarily just

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Speaker 1: been to like, Okay, this is how you could do

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Speaker 1: X y Z better. You would encourage them to maybe

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Speaker 1: have some conversations about you know, like safety and the

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Speaker 1: relationship and um, you know, is this partner even a

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Speaker 1: good partner for you based on you know, your trauma

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Speaker 1: history exactly, because a lot of times trauma survivors kind

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Speaker 1: of they end up repeating the pattern of abuse unwillingly.

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Speaker 1: So what seems exciting and oh this is the perfect person,

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Speaker 1: Well when they break it down, they actually have a

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Speaker 1: lot of fear um, and so the fear is what's

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Speaker 1: driving them, and it's that's not a recipe for trusting

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Speaker 1: and safe relationship if you have a lot of fear um.

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Speaker 1: So helping them to kind of alleviate that fear and

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Speaker 1: making sure the relationship is is one that is positive

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Speaker 1: and healthy, then we can go into Okay, so how

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Speaker 1: do we bring up this subject? How do we talk

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Speaker 1: about this? How do you handle it when you when

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Speaker 1: you do disclose, and you can't you can't control the

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Speaker 1: person's reaction, So how do you kind of manage your

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Speaker 1: own feelings around sharing? Because that's also really bit And

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Speaker 1: you brought up an interesting point, Jessica, I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: you can say more about the whole idea that, um,

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Speaker 1: sometimes abuse survivors will unwillingly reenact those patterns of abuse.

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Speaker 1: What does that look like? What does that mean? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna try not to get to uh jargony, but

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Speaker 1: it's my curse. But you know, we often have these

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Speaker 1: patterns from childhood, and you know, the brain likes what

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Speaker 1: it knows, you know, doesn't do novelty very well. It

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Speaker 1: likes to put things in a category and that's the

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Speaker 1: end of it. And so unfortunately, when you unfortunately, for unfortunately, fortunately,

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Speaker 1: when you have these traumatic experiences, UM, it kind of

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Speaker 1: what we say, like it rewires the brain, so you're

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Speaker 1: more sensitized to those types of to those types of triggers,

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Speaker 1: and so you end up getting in these relationships because

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Speaker 1: they're familiar and you kind of your body knows how

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Speaker 1: to respond to something that's familiar. It doesn't know how

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Speaker 1: to respond to something that's not familiar. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: this really strange thing that Okay, this person is a loving,

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Speaker 1: caring partner for me, and that's actually making me feel

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Speaker 1: threatened and scared, and so I have to push them away.

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Speaker 1: It's it's totally illogical, but that's what the body does,

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Speaker 1: and so you have to really actively work against that

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Speaker 1: to to make the changes so you're not reenacting, you know,

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Speaker 1: previous traumas and and things like that. So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of like the short condensed version of it. That's really

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Speaker 1: really tough for people is that unfortunately, like it's just

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Speaker 1: something familiar, so your body knows how to respond to that,

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Speaker 1: even though it's not it's not healthy. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: don't know that we often hear that, Jessica, So I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that you pointed that out, because I would imagine

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Speaker 1: that that is incredibly freeing for people to hear sometimes,

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Speaker 1: right that, Um, you know, sometimes they feel like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I keep finding myself in these same kinds of relationships

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure what I'm doing. Um, but what

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Speaker 1: kind of hearing the background of you know, like, in

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Speaker 1: some ways your brain is wired to kind of keep

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Speaker 1: ending up in these relationships until you can recognize that

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Speaker 1: it makes some different decisions exactly. And and it's totally

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Speaker 1: possible to make the changes I mean, and and what

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Speaker 1: you start to do it, I mean, even little baby steps,

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Speaker 1: you start to feel differently. And yeah, it's scary. I mean,

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Speaker 1: any time you make any change, it's gonna, you know,

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Speaker 1: be a little scary. But once you start to do

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Speaker 1: and you see the impact that you see how it changes,

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Speaker 1: it's so free and that's a lot of the healing.

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Speaker 1: It's just you can let a lot of stuff go

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Speaker 1: and stop beating yourself up about it. So I'm wondering, Jessica,

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Speaker 1: if another thing that comes up is, um, like maybe

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Speaker 1: you see women once they have become parents, um And

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Speaker 1: and I think a lot of times becoming a parent

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Speaker 1: unlocks a lot of stuff from your childhood that you

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Speaker 1: didn't even maybe know was there. So I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: you can talk maybe more about that, like what kinds

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Speaker 1: of things may be related to parenting come up for

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Speaker 1: somebody who has a history of childhood sexual abuse. One

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Speaker 1: of the most common ones I get with moms UM

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Speaker 1: is they are very protective and hyper vigilant with their

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Speaker 1: daughters around males and so, which gosh, it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a double edged short because you you know, you

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Speaker 1: appreciate and respect these women trying to do for their

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Speaker 1: children children what wasn't necessarily done for them, But it

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Speaker 1: also creates a hyper vigilance and fear that can you know,

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Speaker 1: make this child wary of all men and can impact

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Speaker 1: their relationships in terms of when I get older and

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Speaker 1: they're trying to decide, okay, is this person right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they they're afraid of men, then they're not They're not

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Speaker 1: going to be able to kind of get into healthy relationships.

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Speaker 1: They're going to be avoidant. UM. So that's one of

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Speaker 1: the ones that I see a lot um and then

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Speaker 1: I have the reverse. It's it's always interesting when it

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Speaker 1: comes to trauma because I, oh, I tend to see

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Speaker 1: extreme behaviors. So you have the over texted and then

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Speaker 1: you have the the moms who are are dad's even

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Speaker 1: who are just completely um oblivious to what's going on

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Speaker 1: UM and they're not paying attention to the subtle signs

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Speaker 1: or the things that you know, the red flags that

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Speaker 1: are going on, um and so, or their child might

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Speaker 1: even report to them, hey, you know, something happened, and

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Speaker 1: they kind of shut down and they don't believe their child.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of it's kind of an interesting

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just kind of interesting that that's

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Speaker 1: the two that I that I've seen most frequently. So

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Speaker 1: they either are hyper vigilant or kind of like checked out. Yeah, exactly, Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: So speaking of that, you know, you mentioned um like

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Speaker 1: if a child comes to a parent reporting that something

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Speaker 1: has happened. I think that's also an important discussion to

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Speaker 1: have because I often hear stories of how that goes

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Speaker 1: horribly wrong um and and impacts women far into their life, right,

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Speaker 1: Like they try to come and tell mom or dad

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Speaker 1: that something happened and they either weren't believed or um

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Speaker 1: like the parents just did not handle it. Will. So,

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Speaker 1: do you have any tips for parents about like how

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Speaker 1: to respond should your child come to you and tell

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Speaker 1: them that they have been sexually assaulted or abused? Yes, definitely. UM.

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Speaker 1: So this is so tough for parents because when their

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Speaker 1: child comes to them and says uncle, so and so

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Speaker 1: did you know he touched me inappropriately? You know, if

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Speaker 1: that's your brother, your natural reaction is going to be disbelief.

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Speaker 1: You know you're gonna want to question. And the first

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Speaker 1: thing I say when you're to the parents and when

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Speaker 1: your child says something to you is to take a beat.

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Speaker 1: Don't respond immediately with you know, the intense feelings, would

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Speaker 1: say thank you for thank you for sharing this with me.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's talk about it, you know, and find a

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Speaker 1: safe place, a quiet place, and say I would like

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Speaker 1: to hear more about this, and let your child tell you.

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Speaker 1: And when they if they become flatteral they want to stop.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's okay if you don't want to talk

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Speaker 1: about it anymore. When you're ready to tell me more,

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Speaker 1: I'm listening and in the background and the behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: then you're you know, you're notifying the police and the

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Speaker 1: appropriate authorities. But in terms of connecting with your child,

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Speaker 1: you want to be there for them. You want to

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Speaker 1: show them that you believe them. You want to provide

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Speaker 1: them with love and nurturing and making the environment safe

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Speaker 1: for them to feel comfortable to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: what's going on. Because it's very hard, it's very scary

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Speaker 1: for a child. Oftentimes perpetrators lie and threaten these children,

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Speaker 1: so for them to be brave enough to say anything

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Speaker 1: goes against their natural instinct. And and so you being

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Speaker 1: able to be level headed and even if you lose it,

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Speaker 1: even like oh my god, what you know, going back

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Speaker 1: and saying, oh, you know, sorry, this is really upsetting.

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Speaker 1: That's mom's reaction of that statis reaction. I really want

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Speaker 1: to be there for you. I really want to help you,

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Speaker 1: you know, tell me more, you know, And if, like

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Speaker 1: I said, if they say no, you know, I've done sharing.

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Speaker 1: That's all I have been saying, Okay, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're ready, you can share more. And because what you

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Speaker 1: don't want to do is start asking them a bunch

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Speaker 1: of questions, you know, kind of like an interrogation, because

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Speaker 1: what happens when you do that is that you you

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Speaker 1: kind of make we have like different arousals, and you

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Speaker 1: move them from being like calm to alert, are scared.

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Speaker 1: And once they're in that that place in their brain,

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Speaker 1: they actually can't remember any details. And so they'll sit

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Speaker 1: there and they'll say, I don't know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and they really don't know because they

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Speaker 1: don't have access to that because now you've scared them

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Speaker 1: and their feeling stressed. So being really calm and making

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Speaker 1: sure you're just allowing them to come to you and

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Speaker 1: their time and share and you know, providing them with

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Speaker 1: love and their trance and like I said, doing the

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Speaker 1: behind their work scenes of contacting appropriate referral um, you know,

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Speaker 1: authorities is key. I think that's a really important point

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Speaker 1: to highlight to Jessica because I think sometimes, like especially

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Speaker 1: like if you've seen this played out on TV or

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Speaker 1: something right um, where a child is being asked all

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Speaker 1: these questions and they say, I don't know. Sometimes that

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Speaker 1: leads the parents to think, oh, well, you're not telling

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Speaker 1: the truth about this, like you can't tell me the details.

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Speaker 1: But what actually has happened is that you stressed the

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Speaker 1: child out and they can't remember. Like you said, they

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Speaker 1: really can't remember. And you know, when when a child

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Speaker 1: is being abused, their body naturally shuts down, It shuts

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Speaker 1: down parts, like most kids become dissociative, so they really

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Speaker 1: don't have access to the details of the trauma. It's

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Speaker 1: too stressful. I mean, it's it's locked and it's stored

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Speaker 1: in their body. It's not in their mind like we

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Speaker 1: think of as adults. And so that's the hardest part

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Speaker 1: about abuses that if a kid does say something, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, kids just just don't lie about things like that.

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Speaker 1: But trying to badger the details out of them just

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Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't work because they really, they really don't remember.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmmmm. So I want to kind of double back

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Speaker 1: a little bit because I don't know that we like

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Speaker 1: actively flushed out the whole um, you know, like what

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Speaker 1: you mentioned in terms of women coming to you because

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Speaker 1: they are having trouble like getting close to their partners physically,

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Speaker 1: and talk a little bit more about like what the

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Speaker 1: work around that looks like, because I would imagine that

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Speaker 1: could maybe be time consuming, right, like to kind of

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Speaker 1: unlock all these layers of trauma and to understand, you know,

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Speaker 1: like how it is to experience intimacy in a way

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Speaker 1: that's healthy and like consensual exactly. Yeah, and it is.

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Speaker 1: It is really hard because a lot of times they're

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Speaker 1: carrying the shame of what happened to them and they

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Speaker 1: feel I mean, I think one of the things that

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Speaker 1: makes me the most sad is when you know, girls

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Speaker 1: are sexually abused as children, and they think that they're

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Speaker 1: they're no longer virgins, right, like the the abuse took

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Speaker 1: that that part of them, and so they end up

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Speaker 1: acting out sexually or or they shut down sexually. But

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Speaker 1: they for them the first time experience wasn't wasn't their choice. UM.

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Speaker 1: So that I just kind of wanted to briefly address

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Speaker 1: that just because I just feel like it. It plays

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Speaker 1: with the mindset for a lot of these these girls

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Speaker 1: who didn't go into adulthood and they feel like they're

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Speaker 1: damaged because they quote unquote allowed this to happen, even

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Speaker 1: though they didn't allow anything. It was against their will.

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Speaker 1: That's where a lot of the shame comes from. And

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Speaker 1: so when they're in these relationships and they're trying to decide, okay,

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Speaker 1: what is you know, what feels good? Well what feels wrong?

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Speaker 1: And how do I say no? And how do I

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Speaker 1: say yes? It's it's really like going back to the

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Speaker 1: beginning stages UM and helping them just doing simple things

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Speaker 1: of practicing saying no and feeling the power of being

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Speaker 1: able to say no are like getting back in touch

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Speaker 1: with their body um and by doing yoga, are doing

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Speaker 1: dancer or whatever it is, where they can start to

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Speaker 1: feel more loose and more comfortable again in their body,

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Speaker 1: so that when it comes time to be intimate or

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Speaker 1: share these intimate experiences, they have a different view of

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Speaker 1: what's pleasurable. Right, It's not pleasure and pain mixed together,

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Speaker 1: and now they're dissociating. Does that make any sense? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. And I'm also thinking Jessica about like this

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Speaker 1: kind of um, I'm not sure if circular argument is

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Speaker 1: the right word, but you also hear all of these, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, like stories and things and like just even

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Speaker 1: cultural beliefs around like a little black girls being fast

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Speaker 1: or hot or you know that kind of thing. But

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Speaker 1: then when you think about like the incidents of childhood

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse, like some of that, and if they then

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Speaker 1: feel like, okay, like this is not you know, um,

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Speaker 1: like this was kind of taken away from me. And

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Speaker 1: if there results in them maybe having maybe more sexual

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Speaker 1: activity than they would have had this not happened, then

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Speaker 1: it almost kind of perpetuates this kind of psychle that

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Speaker 1: feels like it's difficult to break into exactly. You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I mean, you're so spot

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Speaker 1: on and one of the things that really you know.

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Speaker 1: Really important to know is, you know, kids usually don't

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Speaker 1: come and say, mom, dad, you know, so and so

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Speaker 1: touched me. But what you start to see is a

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Speaker 1: change in the child's behavior. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that you'll start to see, especially if it's prolonged sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse that started when the child was young, because children

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00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: naturally seek affection and attention from adults like it's their

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00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: way of it. It's part of attachment and growing close.

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Speaker 1: What you see is the extreme of that of what's

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Speaker 1: called like seductive behaviors, and so they might be more

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Speaker 1: flirty or the touch might be more essential. And this

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Speaker 1: is not a continent thought process. Is not the I'm saying, Oh,

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Speaker 1: this is what I'm doing. I know what I'm It's

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Speaker 1: it's that brave stuff we talked about, right, And so

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00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: adults are older men, prey on prey on that in children,

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Speaker 1: and so that's a type of behavior that's reinforced and

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Speaker 1: then they start to think that that's all I am, um,

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00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 1: and that's that's what I see. Also, that's just really

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00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,159
Speaker 1: a shame and you know, sadly, and I don't know

390
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Speaker 1: if it's sad or not sad, but um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I work with you know, black girls who are twelve

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Speaker 1: and thirteen and fourteen, who they their faces looked twelve

393
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Speaker 1: and thirteen and fourteen, but their bodies look maybe a

394
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: little more adult and here come you know, team. The

395
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: thing the people I'm really thinking about is like, do

396
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Speaker 1: you remember back when R Kelly was dating Aliah, like

397
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Speaker 1: way back before before probably date probably, but that's like

398
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Speaker 1: the one I remember the most is like when you're

399
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Speaker 1: fifteen or your fourteen, it seems so romantic to have

400
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: this man be into you, but as it's an adult

401
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 1: and he has all this power in this control, and

402
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: he's taking advantage of that natural kind of need for children,

403
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: and then you know, all of us as humans to

404
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Speaker 1: be loved. UM. So, I don't know if I kind

405
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: of want to find change. I feel like a little

406
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 1: bit did. But that's what came to my mind when

407
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: you mentioned that, is is that part of the abuses,

408
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Speaker 1: like the seductive behaviors that kids exhibit, and then it

409
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 1: becomes this perpetual cycle of abuse and it continue to

410
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Speaker 1: be re victimized. H Yeah, And and I think you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you did bring up the R Kelly thing

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Speaker 1: because I think it's very um critical to this conversation

413
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Speaker 1: because I think in looking at the response to him

414
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Speaker 1: and like people having trouble not going to his concerts

415
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Speaker 1: and like wanting to not listen to his music, and

416
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Speaker 1: really like highlighting the fact that he is incredibly problematic

417
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Speaker 1: and dangerous and has been for years to black girls

418
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Speaker 1: in our community. But how many other predators there are

419
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: like him that we often protect and you know, don't

420
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: keep our girls safe from exactly. And it's it's that's

421
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: the sad part, you know. It's it's the aging of

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00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 1: of our girls, you know, putting them, just making them

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00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 1: grow up so fast so that they're missing out on

424
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 1: their childhood. Um, so it's like they skipped you know,

425
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: the they're just skipping stages. And that's the tragedy, you know,

426
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: that's that's the tragedy. Yeah, And do you have any

427
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: ideas about, you know, like how we might be able

428
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: to have better conversations around them, Like what kinds of

429
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: things can like the community do a better job of

430
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're protecting our girls better. Oh,

431
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: it's such a good question, you know, and probably like

432
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, like that could be its own episode, right,

433
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: like just the whole town home meeting on that. But

434
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 1: I'm just curious if you had any ideas, like just

435
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: from a clinical perspective of things, you think people could

436
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: be doing a better their job of you know, I

437
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: think it's it's gonna be really helping. It's educating boys

438
00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: and girls. It's the trying not to sexualized teen girls. UM.

439
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: It's kind of unfortunate that in this society, across the

440
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: board you start to see you start seeing kids with

441
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: clothes that are made for adults. Right. So there's this

442
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: whole revolution right now of sexualizing children that I think

443
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: is generally problematic, and it's been going on within our

444
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: community for long periods of time based off of our own,

445
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, legacy of slavery and racism in the country

446
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: that I won't go into, um. And so I think

447
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: if the onus is on is on the adults to

448
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: really help girls feel empowered, um, to not to not

449
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 1: highlight their sexuality, but highlight you know, there are other gifts.

450
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: Their academics, they're athletics, they're just anything that's not sexual,

451
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: and then encouraging mint you know, boys to do the

452
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: same because I think a lot of the times with

453
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: the boys who are maybe you know, sixteen or eighteen,

454
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: you know, they are also suffering from from low self

455
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: esteem and trying to find their worth, and they get

456
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: it by by over sexualizing girls, so helping them to

457
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: feel their own self worth, um, outside of outside of

458
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, masculinity, if that makes sense, or sexualization. Yeah. Yeah,

459
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: And I think in a lot of cases, boys are

460
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: incredibly overseexualized, right, Like just the whole idea of like

461
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: sowing your wild olds are like, Okay, this is how

462
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: you become a man um So even if it's not

463
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: really related to the sexualization of girls, I think that

464
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: even boys are pushed to kind of like explore this

465
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: this in a way that isn't always the healthiest. Yeah, definitely.

466
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: So what are some of your favorite resources, Jessica? Do

467
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: you have UM books or podcasts or articles or websites

468
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: or things that if people wanted to read more about this?

469
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: Are things that you have found really helpful for some

470
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: of your clients? Are there things you suggest pretty frequently? So,

471
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 1: I in terms of working with children who have been

472
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: sexually abused, One of the books that I really like,

473
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: I don't have the author unfortunately, but it's called a

474
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: Bad Thing Happened and it never it talks about it,

475
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: just it's a book of going through Okay, a bad

476
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: thing happened, you know, and I felt like this, And

477
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: it goes to like typical feelings that a survivor of

478
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: sexual abuse would feel. But it never actually names I

479
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: was sexually abused. So I like it because it goes

480
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: it really taps into the feelings. So it normalizes things

481
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: and it provides an opportunity for you know, the child

482
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: to kind of talk more freely about, Oh, I had

483
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: something bad happened to me. UM. So that's one that

484
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: I use with kids. UM in terms of like educational purposes, UM,

485
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: this is more I mean, it's a little bit more clinical,

486
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 1: but I think it could also be useful for adults.

487
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: There's two books. One is UM Body Keeps the School

488
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: or by Bessel Vandal Vandal Coke UM. So I feel

489
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: like it's a little bit more clinical, but I also

490
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: I like it because it describes the the how the

491
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: body UM Keeps in stores trauma and it normalizes again

492
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: kind of these experiences that you have that happened that

493
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: you feel, Okay, why why am I blowing things constantly

494
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 1: out of proportion? Oh it's my stress responsestem so like

495
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: it kind of makes you feel normal. Um, and a

496
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: book that it's kind of I don't know. I I

497
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: like it, some my clients like it, but the authors,

498
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: I guess we're part of I don't know. There's some

499
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: drama around it that I recently found out. But I

500
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: like the book and the clients like the book. But

501
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: it can be really triggering, and that's a courage to heal.

502
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you know that one. Okay, Yeah,

503
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: and I have heard that some playing it's like really

504
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: feel triggered by it, but then other clients really really

505
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: like it exactly. So it's kind of like that's one

506
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: of those that I would as a therapist, I would

507
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: slowly introduced, like maybe a chapter or something. I wouldn't

508
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: encourage a survivor to go out and read it on

509
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: their own. It's just the stories and yeah, it can

510
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: just be really upsetting. Okay, So that may be one

511
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: that we would not encourage, Like if you are not

512
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: in treatment, like it. Maybe if you're working with a therapist,

513
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,719
Speaker 1: maybe one to talk with your therapist about whether you

514
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: guys can work through some of the exercises. Probably would

515
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: not be one that you want to just go pick

516
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: up on your own exactly exactly, and then finally a

517
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: final one which also could be triggering. But I think

518
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: it's also completely gosh, it's so validating to hear about

519
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: is UM post traumatic slave syndrome by Dr Joy Degrew,

520
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: and I just absolutely love her. You can watch your

521
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: lectures on YouTube also. But I think breaking down kind

522
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: of the legacy of slavery in the US and a

523
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: lot of just overall kind of trauma symptoms UM, I

524
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: think it's like a nice I don't know, I just

525
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: really like it, and the way she explains things, it

526
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: really makes you feel like, Okay, these are survival instincts.

527
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: I just now I'm not in that mode anymore, so

528
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: I can I can do different things to change and

529
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: be better. But wow, at least I know I'm not crazy.

530
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: So that's you know, that's one of the That's one

531
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: of the reasons I really love her and recommend her,

532
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: especially for UM for our black our black clients, but

533
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: also I think anybody who's working with with African American

534
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: population should read that book. Got it? Okay, So tell

535
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: us more about your practice, just because you have a

536
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: bit of an interesting practice and I'm sure people would

537
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: love to hear about it. It is interesting. So I

538
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: UM do all of my work online. I'm licensed in

539
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 1: California and so all my clients live in California, but

540
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: I live in Israel because I felt the need to

541
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: go on an adventure, so I decided a third world

542
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: country would be awesome. And don't get mad at me

543
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: people out there who have been Israel, I want to

544
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 1: tell me it's a first world country because I live

545
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: here and it's not. Um, but you know, it's it's

546
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: part of the adventure and learning and different cultures and

547
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: things like that. So UM, I do all my work online.

548
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: I work with kids as young as seven. I do

549
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: lots of the movement, yoga, dance, music, we play games.

550
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: This is with my kids, obviously, but adults to get

551
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: into the yoga and it's it's really about tapping into

552
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: the body and and making those connections. UM. So that's

553
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: I think that's it for my That's fine practice, okay.

554
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: And where can people find um? Find you online? Get

555
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: more information about you, any groups or anything that you're running.

556
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? You can find me on

557
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: Jessica like therapy dot com. That's my website, pretty active

558
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: on it blog regularly, so probably seeing stuff all over

559
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: the inter webs. Um. I do some Instagram can be

560
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: kind of fun with the pictures. Um. So that's Jessica

561
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: and Score, like I'm just Score lm F T. And

562
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: then I do YouTube, um once a month. So that's

563
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: and of course Facebook, but you know every as my

564
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: sister told me, Facebook for old people. What's the name

565
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: of your YouTube channel, Jessica. Um, It's jay Le Therapy

566
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: and Consultant, which is also the name of mine, um

567
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: my practice. Okay, got it all right, Well, thank you

568
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: so much for sharing this information with us today, Jessica.

569
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. You're welcome.

570
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that Jessica was able to share her

571
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: expertise with us about such an important topic. Be sure

572
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: to check out the show notes to get more information

573
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: about Jessica's practice and the resources she shared. You can

574
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: find them at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash

575
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: Session sixty three. If you're looking for a therapist in

576
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: your area, make sure to visit the directory at Therapy

577
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com slash directory and if you

578
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: want to continue this conversation, and join a community of

579
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: other sisters who listen to the podcast. Join us over

580
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: in the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot

581
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: com slash tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions

582
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: that are asked to gain entry. Thanks again for joining

583
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: me this week, and I look forward to continuing this

584
00:33:21,520 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take care a hoctort

585
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: p oftor