WEBVTT - A Crypto Whipsaw Tests Investors 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carole Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanabek. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.600 plus technology, politics, economics, all harnessing the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.000 analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.200 Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:32.519 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. Talk about a wicked wild 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.360 ride bitcoin today, Tim, Yeah, whip sigh. I mean it 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.879 was down down just north of thirty thousand dollars at 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.120 one point round nine o'clock this morning, shooting back up 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.879 to dollars just a little later in the day. If 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:46.320 you bought at the lows and just kind of wrote 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.559 it up today, not a bad day. Hey, listen. It's 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.000 something I talked about big time with Arc invest Kathy Wood. 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:52.360 We're going to hear from her a little bit later 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.680 on on our show at the top of the hour. Meantime, 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.600 looking at the crypto market always for us. Mike mclogan 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.320 Commodity Strategies at Bloomberg Intelligence, sitting right now to me 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.120 in our interactive broker studio. Where do we begin? How 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.360 do we tell this story in a smart way? Well, 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.600 your interview with Kathy nailed it. I thought, Stowe, this 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.920 is a big picture theme. Let the traders beat themselves 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.760 up and this is what's happening, and stops the speculators. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.720 And this one lesson I learned in trading bits. I'm 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.040 doing my mini violin right now. There's just no no, 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.040 you know, hey, this is what happens. You hit the stops, 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.240 you flush out the speculators, and you create great levels. 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:27.199 And I think that's what happens. Sure, Bitcoin got little 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.200 bit too expensive, and I think thing we're going to 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.959 look at from the future is dose coin marked the 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.319 peak and all the froth and markets and now we're 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.280 getting back to good support in bitcoin. But let's look 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.840 forward fundamentally. To me, this is a really billion the 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.479 blocks for fundamental support and bitcoin. I E. What's happening. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.480 We're seeing every yes of today is down exceptional one 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.520 gold and why because it got too cheap? And what 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:52.720 I think it's happening now. Is the market's looking forward? 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.280 Is this finally a sign of froth coming out of 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.120 the stock market. If that's the case, that means much 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:02.680 more fetal reserve easing, much more stimulus, which supports golden 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:04.800 bitcoin and bonds. And I think that's market's gonna be 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.120 looking forward to. Like, how do you explain just the 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:09.280 massive drop that we saw this morning? There were two 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.480 of them. One happened during the seven o'clock hour and 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.320 what happened going into the nine o'clock hour Wall Street time. 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.360 I means it realistic to think that that could have 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.359 been some sort of whale offloading positions. Oh sure, well 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:21.360 it's it's it's called hitting stops. And as far as 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:23.800 who's doing it, I try not to go there because 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.200 I in my whole career I've noticed people trying to 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.040 beat themselves up and figure out executive it is, and 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.000 by time you figure it out, it's too late. So 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.160 I fully expect it was just the massive, the the lleged, 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.680 the the overweighted longs getting heading stops. As far as 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.639 a whale, most I sense from these whales is they 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.520 don't really care, they don't sell, they don't buy they 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.880 just told and that's the big picture one. So people 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.040 usually claim there's just too few walts, but a lot 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.680 of times these are exchanges holding wall almo for all 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.400 their customers because it's trading around. One criticism of a 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.320 bitcoin has been it's very highly concentrated among a small 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.120 number of people, less so than do you hear that 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:00.359 hits the tape and it gets readership and people like 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.160 to hear. But the fact is one exchange might have 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.320 one wall with dozens, I mean hundreds and maybe thousands 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.320 of customers in that one wallets, so it's different. One 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.600 exchange could be one and there are tons of people 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.920 trading it out, so that's I think less important. And 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:16.560 then the biggest wall in the world is so Tosi 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:21.240 Nakamoto Nakamoto or that's so called pseudonym, and he has 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.760 a million coins that we understand that I have never traded, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:26.560 so that would be something to look forward to. But 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:28.440 a lot of times what I see in this is 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.240 a good way to create demand in the market is 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:32.160 reduced prices, and that's what I think we just did. 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.720 We're tested that we got to their thirty about where 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.080 we ended last year, and I think this quick bounce 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.760 today is going to bring out Okay, is this the 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.400 global digital reserve asset in the world going digital? I 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:44.720 think the market are gonna say yes it is. What's 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:46.800 my risk of not holding? Universes are doing more of 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:48.960 the same. And by the way, we've seen these kind 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.840 of things for ten years. It's you know, it's keep 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.480 surviving the thousand cuts. This is just another cut. What 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.760 about what we got from China this morning, kind of 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.160 pushing back on global currencies. Dude, what's the role of that? 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.960 It's it's of the new cold ward I think brewing 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.160 first of all, and it's not the world completely. And 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.680 what's right in the center of that digital reserve assets. 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.240 So I'll start with the fact the digitalization of money 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.000 is enhancing dollar dominance on the world's gap, is driving 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.760 China nuts because they hate the doll and also that 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:21.120 we have an authoritarian, dictatorial economy that is not driven 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.600 by market forces. They can't catch up. That's why they 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.600 have to steal intellectual party. But the news isn't really 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.560 knew it just tweaked, tweaked. What you know was market 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.200 was ready to hit stops. The key thing that to 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.159 see to remember in this space. If the US does nothing, 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.679 the most widely traded cryptocurrency on the planet is tethered. 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.679 It's double the volume today a bitcoin, that's a digital 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.440 doll which trades on Etherium platform, which enhances the value theorum. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.040 And that's what's happening if the US does nothing. By 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:47.520 the way, the toothpaste is already out of the bottle. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:49.360 In the US. We're not going to cramp down like China. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:51.960 But China has to because they need to prevent their 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.000 citizens from getting access to the Internet and getting access 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.160 to outside of their currency. They have to. Versus the US, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.200 we're free company country. So to me, this is part 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.360 of that that Cold war kicking in and the US 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.400 is already winning. Still a commodity, Oh no, I so 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.480 I look at are you changing because you've called it 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.960 a commodity, right? But bitcoin? Yeah? No, I look at 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.040 bitcoin is a collectible. Yes, it's a collective collect it's 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.640 oh yes, clearly. So that's a key difference about bitcoin 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.599 and every other asset. The rules of economics still favorite 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.560 bitcoin is. You know, the man is still increasing and 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.880 the supplies clearly declining. By code that is incorruptible, there's 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:29.280 not much you can do about that. Now, that's a 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.720 key difference with the whole broad space, which I'll be 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.640 published on tomorrow. The amount of coins on coin market 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.520 camp dot com is approaching ten thousand. That might have 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:39.960 hit the number of excess froth in the space, you know, 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.640 unlimited supply, ease of entry. Okay, an index, Bloomberg Galaxy 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.960 cryptol index will have a survivor bias. But Bitcoin is 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.680 the one that's outside of space. It represents the macro 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.040 digital gold and everything else are just speculative ten seconds. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:54.520 Are we all going to be dealing in some kind 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.320 of cryptocurrency at some point in our life? Absolutely, unless 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.119 it can't expect that trend to stop, it is probably 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:00.640 going to axel right, and if we west in Tesla 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:02.880 or some other companies were already in it, right, Tesla's 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.320 down in here. Bitcoins up on the year. Thank you, 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.200 You're welcome. Claily, appreciate it. Mike mclogan, Commodity strategies at 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.440 Bloomberg Intelligence in our interactive broker student. Right, you got 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.280 to have I'm done. We know everything about bitcoinwa home 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.600 now this is Bloomberg. I want to talk a bit 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:20.599 about the virus because New York State which we know 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.680 was the original US epicenter of the pandemic, reporting tim 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.560 it's lowest infection rates in September, but in India daily 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.160 deaths reached a record. They did their report new infections 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.920 declining from the highs of early made. That's good to hear, 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:34.440 but they still have a long way to go. Different 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.440 stories playing out around the world. Keeping track globally, cases 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.760 have passed a hundred and sixty four point two million 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.080 deaths as have exceeded at three point four million. More 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.240 than one point fifty one billion doses have been given 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.080 of the COVID vaccine. So let's get into it with 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.000 Dr Mario Ramirez, an emergency medicine doctor and entrepreneur managing 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.440 director at the nonprofit Opportunity Labs. They are building opportunities 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.040 for children. He, by the way, was the Pandemic and 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.040 Emerging Threats Coordinator at Health and Human Services during the 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.360 Obama administration. Dr Ramirez on the phone from Washington, d C. 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.320 Nice to have you here with us. What do you 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.400 think is the COVID or vaccine headline that we all 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:13.720 need to be paying attention to right now? Well, so 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.040 I think there's two things, Carol, Thanks for having me by. 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:18.640 So the first you know that you mentioned the top 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:20.760 of the hour is that you know, the pandemic here 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.080 in the United States is certainly at a different place 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.680 than the rest of the world, where the situation is 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.040 still very tenuous. UM. But I think the top line 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.160 here domestically is that while overall things are going quite well, 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:37.320 there is a lot of heterogeneity in the information. Um. So, 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.880 we just got some important information from JOHNS Hopkins, and 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.800 we're actually seeing a lot of variability and how the 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.640 vaccine is rolling out, And because of that, we're actually 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:50.200 seeing pretty impressive differences in coronavirus case counts in those areas. So, 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.400 for example, we have seven states where vaccination rates are 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.480 greater than se the population, and case counts are ten 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.600 percent less compared to the national average in those states. 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.040 But intense states where vaccination rates are less than of 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:08.080 the population, their counts are higher than the average. And 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.240 so what we're starting to see really is increased fragmentation. 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:13.800 That really brings home the point of how important it 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.160 is that we try to access those people are really 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.960 hesitant about getting vaccinated. So to what extent do you 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.560 think that opening up and telling those people who have 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.040 been vaccinated, that they don't have to wear masks and 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.560 they can go back to life as as normal before 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.240 the pandemic. To what extent do you think that actually 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:33.640 helps get hesitant people to get vaccinated. So my hope 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.600 is that it is it is helpful. You know, of course, 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.240 and many people have talked about this, is that we 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.200 do not have a good verification mechanism. Uh. You know, 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.280 we certainly know from game theory and lots of real 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.320 world examples, is that when you when you don't have 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.640 a way to verify uh, you know, someone's story, that 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.719 people have a tendency to cheat, which is what my 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:54.080 big concern is. Um. Certainly, I think if we continue 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.719 to see regional fragmentation of cases, that will create a 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.120 larger incent for people to get vaccinated. But the other 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.320 thing that I think has a key role here. As 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.880 we start to open more businesses up and you know, 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.880 more entertainment venues, there becomes I think a greater need 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.719 for testing. And this is something that you know I've 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:14.920 advocated for as we start to reopen, particularly on the 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.520 part of uh, you know, employers in groups like we 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.760 act Alliance of Stress. The importance as we start to 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.959 reopen these places up. Testing and surveillance becomes that much 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:25.800 more important so that we can have a good handle 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:31.360 on how these vaccinations are working in the real world. Yeah, 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.800 it's you know, it's interesting as we make progress. And 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.200 I was just talking with a colleague. You know, it 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.800 feels good, and we know that if you've got the vaccine, 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.320 if you do even still get COVID, you're you're in 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.319 a much better position than if you didn't have the vaccine. 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.360 But yet we're still learning a lot. Is that fair 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.080 to say? I think that's true. I mean, the CDC 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.760 certainly felt comfortable, you know, with the data that they've 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:56.960 seen so far that these vaccines are working well in 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.520 the real world. But the other piece of that writing 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.360 that we can sinue to collect information and we continue 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.520 to learn. And one of the big pieces that I 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.000 think we still need to learn is how long lasting 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.880 or how durable the vaccines are, right, And so I 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.240 think today we've heard Dr Fauci say that, you know, 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.320 he believes that booster is going to be necessary within 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.320 about twelve months after your first dose. That's something that 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.920 we still need to learn a lot more about. And 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.480 I think, you know again that stressed the point of 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.920 continuing to test, and testing rates of course have fallen off. 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.480 But as we get into the fall in the winter 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.720 again and we start to get a sense for when 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.959 that durability is falling off, testing is going to be 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.520 that much more important. Very briefly, is there any indication 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.280 that variants that have developed around the world can can 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:44.200 break through these vaccines twenty seconds? So far? Not so much. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.119 We have seen good efficacy of the Fisor vaccine in particular, 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.839 and similar reporting from Maderna against all of the variants 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.200 that we're tracking, both in Brazil, South Africa, UH and 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.000 India as well. Still with US is Dr Mario Ramirez, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.560 Emergency Physician maaging director at Opportunity Labs, former pandemic an 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.600 Emerging Threats coordinator at HHS during the Obama administration. Station 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.440 during UH, still with us on the phone from Washington. 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:09.240 I'm rushing because I want to get to you because 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:10.880 one of the things we want to ask you is 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.720 a headline crossed about no masks for vaccinated at Amazon staff. 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.120 That's gonna think go into effect next week. We at 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.640 our office UH don't have to wear masks. UH, And 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.920 increasingly we're seeing that dr mrs. Are you comfortable with 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.880 that as people kind of go back to quote unquote 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:32.760 normal and take off the mask, is it okay? Well, 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.000 so I'll say, like a lot of people, the CDC 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.520 recommendations caught me a little bit off guard, you know, 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.040 And I did think that masks were going to be 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.040 the last thing to come down. Um. But I have 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.280 read the data that drove the CDC's recommendations, and I 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.640 think the science is certainly sound. Uh. You know, the 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.679 science certainly suggests these vaccines have good efficacy against the 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.160 different variants that are out there circulating, and we're continuing 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.920 to see improvement across all of the metrics. Uh. And 0:11:57.960 --> 0:11:59.839 so I think, you know, again, the point of where 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:02.080 in the asks and distancing was to get us to 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.520 a place where we could adequately take care of patients. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.000 And I think we have approach that point. And so 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.080 it's time to give folks a chance to see that 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:10.959 real life is coming back. And so I think it's 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.400 a perverse to give us try. Yeah, and we only 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.520 about thirty seconds left, but there's still so many people 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.840 who don't necessarily feel comfortable with that doctor, even if 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.880 they have been vaccinated. Sure, and I you know, I 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.280 think that's okay. Um. You know, like all things in 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.079 this pandemic, it is a learning process, and I think, um, 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.040 it's important for people to observe. What happens with the 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.040 case counts is more and more people take off their 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.400 masks and develop their own sense of comfort. For the 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.439 last year and a half, we've been stressing to people 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:39.640 how important it is to wear masks and how important 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.840 it is to make sure you're staying distant, and so 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.480 I think we just need to give people space to 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.920 feel comfortable taking down their masks when they think it's appropriate. 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.600 I certainly don't think it harms anyone to wear a mask, 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:50.079 and so I think if it takes a little while 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.920 longer for some people to get comfortable with that, that's okay. Listen, 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:54.440 thank you so much for your time. We look forward 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.079 to catching up with you again in the future. Dr 0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:00.640 Mario Ramirez, emergency doctor, imagining director at Opportunity Labs, joining 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.120 us on the phone from Washington, d Seech. So we've 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:04.920 been talking all week long about the how to issue 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.360 Bloomberg Business Week. It is out. There's so many varied 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.120 in informative, informative pieces of advice in the magazine, so 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.240 I highly recommend you check it out. But there's another 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.120 story we wanted to bring to your attention in the 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.920 new issue. It is this week's Remarks Tim. It's about 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.360 how China is winning the race to vaccinate the world, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.720 at least for now ye. Joining us now in the 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.280 studio is Joe Webber, editor Bloomberg Business Week, and joining 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.319 us on the phone is John Lawerman, editor at Bloomberg, 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.640 the editor of this piece. China is winning the race 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.960 to vaccinate the world? Joel Um, what is the opportunity 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.440 that China has to use so called soft power when 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.520 it comes to vaccinating the developing world? That that is 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.440 a really interesting term to use, because this is ultimately 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.640 a diplomatic weapon of sorts, or tool, let's call it, 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.280 of who gets who's vaccine? And KOVACS is sort of 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.079 the West version of of a distribution mechanism that can 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.160 get vaccines out in the world. And we're not talking 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.480 about the America is um the United States of America 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:07.560 so much as Africa, South America, Southeast Asia, a lot 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.880 of places that don't have the science or resources to 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.480 get their own version of it. And what we're now 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.640 seeing is that the Chinese vaccines are basically a huge 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.880 export export tool, and they are flooding the zone and 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:28.760 basically being an alternative to what US soft power looks like. So, so, John, 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.200 how is that beginning to play out around the world 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:35.560 now that the WHO has uh, you know, given a 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:40.120 stamp for one of the two Chinese vaccines. Yeah, hi, 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.400 thanks for having me so, um, how so I think 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.080 we're still we're still in the very early stages of this, 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.600 you know, this is this isn't maybe round one around 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.560 one and a half of a of a battle or 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.960 of a uh you know, a player that's going to 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.960 take quite some time to play out, you know. Shot. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.640 China has shipped out what is it, two fifty six 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:10.280 million doses of vaccine to other countries. Now the US has, um, 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.520 you know, committed to ship what is it, eighty millions 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.920 so far, and I don't know, um, whether they've actually 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.440 made any of those donations yet. So China has at 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.120 the same time that they're doing this there they are 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:29.920 extracting some diplomatic concessions from the countries that they're going to. 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:37.400 Now they The interesting thing about the WHOSE clearance of 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.560 the of the Sinal Farm vaccine one of the two 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:51.240 government underwritten vaccine from China is uh that um uh 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:57.920 that vaccine um is uh sorry, UM, it's it's well there. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.360 I think there are a lot of wild cards here, 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.200 John and and and one element that really struck me 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.080 with this what was really two things. One the way 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.880 that that it's described as you know, we don't even 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.880 know how how efficacious the vaccine is, especially in the 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.600 long run. But then also this this kind of vaccine 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.920 diplomacy is quote clearly of the hardball variety. To take 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:24.160 me through what that means. Well, uh, so as they said, 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.560 they're extracting concessions from these countries at the same time, Um, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:33.440 they warned Bangladesh uh and some other countries um after 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.800 they had made um, after they've made the vaccine deals, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.680 um with China, not to engage with the US, not 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.160 to engage with other countries that were offering vaccine. So 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:50.520 um they've also uh cokes countries to express or recourage 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.920 them to express the port to the one China for 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:57.040 the you know, the non not recognizing Taiwan. So they 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.400 moved made moves like this. Um. So it's fair to 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.000 say strings are attached. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are definitely 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.320 strings attacks. It reminds me of you know, all the 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.760 moves that China has done in helping infrastructure and in 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.199 the emerging parts of the world right initiative exactly, and 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.240 then also having access to commodities, right like developing these 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.160 relationships and basically making these emerging economies and countries beholden 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.119 to China. Specifically India, John has got to be watching 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.719 very closely. I mean, India is the place where so 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:33.440 many pharmaceuticals are manufactured. Yeah, and um, for India is 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:38.280 an exporting vaccine right now, India was really making any 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.399 you know this, This was not a diplomatic tool for 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.320 them at all. I think, you know, perhaps it may 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.080 have created some favors for them to export vaccines, but 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.000 these were not their own vaccines. These have to China's 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:53.399 own vaccines, you know, domestically produced, domestic and domestically developed. 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:59.879 So um, you know these are the vaccines, um from India. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:05.000 There was one domestically developed vaccine, but uh, the other 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.920 was from Astra Zenica, so that's where all that technology 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.400 came from. I was by far the more favorite vaccine. 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.160 But in any case, um, yeah, I think we're gonna 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.120 have to be you know, keeping very close h and Indian. 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.520 Now it looks like we won't be seeing vaccine being 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.320 exported from India until the end of the year, and 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.840 India is one of it had been at least one 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.960 of the major sources of vaccine or lower middle income countries. 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:31.240 You know. The other thing John that I think a 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.359 lot of people are trying to understand it been all 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:37.400 this conflicting information about how efficus the Chinese vaccines are. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.679 How are you making sense of that, especially in light 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:42.720 of you know, this being a diplomatic tool, but one 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:48.280 that you know, people in various countries might not want. Yeah, So, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.000 I mean that's really interesting question. I mean, the the uh, 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.919 the Signifiing vaccine that's been authorized by the w h 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.159 O has uh, you know, actually a pretty good numbers, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.159 pretty good ethicacine umbers. The other vaccine, the sign of 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.359 Act vaccine that is yet to be authorized by the 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:07.080 w h O. And that's actually the point is gonna 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.479 make earlier that that has uh lower efficacy numbers, at 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.920 least in some of the trials. And so that's a 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.679 concern because you know, as we we've written about seemed 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.640 um countries like to say shells that when these vaccines 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.120 get distributed, there's a possibility that although maybe you're going 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.080 to see reduction the hospitalizations in depth, because that's what 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.080 these vaccines do, that's what they're tested for, right, but 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:35.000 you might not be able to actually um uh stop 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.040 the spread of the virus in the community. So in 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.840 other words, you you don't um you don't get the 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.639 same benefits out of it in terms of like feelings 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.119 of public safety or people being able to take off 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.440 their mask or um, you know, just stopping the virus 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.960 from spreading uh locally, So you might not be able 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.280 to get out of the pandemic quite as quickly that 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.359 if this data, you know, there's there's a lot of 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.760 questions you still need to be answered, Like for example, 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.040 in the Stay Sells, we don't know you know exactly, 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.320 there could be other variance or something. It might not 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.040