Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Speaker 1: Studio on iHeart Radio. My name's Jordan Runtag, but enough
Speaker 1: about me. My guest today heralded his artistic arrival with
Speaker 1: his self titled debut, a gloriously maximalist affair that marked
Speaker 1: him as both wildly talented and wildly unclassifiable. His musical
Speaker 1: maturity and dramatic flair set him apart, and since then
Speaker 1: he's defied expectations with a series of unpredictable but always
Speaker 1: intriguing projects, not to mention always rewarding. When he titled
Speaker 1: his last album Unfollow the Rules, it seemed less like
Speaker 1: a name than a mission statement. He's one of my
Speaker 1: musical heroes, and now he's paying tribute to a musical
Speaker 1: hero of his own. He famously restaged Judy Garland's iconic
Speaker 1: Carnegie Hall show in two thousand and six, complete with
Speaker 1: a full band and a full audience. Now, in honor
Speaker 1: of what would have been a hundredth birthday, he's releasing
Speaker 1: a more stripped down affair backed by a jazz quartet.
Speaker 1: He recorded the tracks in Hollywood's A Story Capitol Record
Speaker 1: Studios for an added dose of authenticity. He even employed
Speaker 1: a microphone she'd once used. The scale down arrangements are
Speaker 1: mirrored by the scaled down audience. In this case, it
Speaker 1: was just one person. His friend Renee Zellwigger, who portrayed
Speaker 1: Garland in the two thousand nineteen film Judy My guest today,
Speaker 1: has done an equally stunning job and habiting the larger
Speaker 1: than life talent on this new record, Rufus does Judy
Speaker 1: at Capital Studios. I'm so happy to welcome Rufus. Wayne, Right,
Speaker 1: Judy one of my favorite topics. I know one of
Speaker 1: yours as well. Um, you've talked about really first embracing
Speaker 1: the Judy's Carnegie Hall album as a way of providing
Speaker 1: joy for yourself in the aftermath at nine eleven. Giving
Speaker 1: the last two years we've all had, I feel like
Speaker 1: we could all use a dose of that Judy Rufus
Speaker 1: magic right now. So I feel like the timing is perfect. Yes, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean it wasn't actually nine eleven. It was it
Speaker 1: was the the invasion of Iraq, which which was after.
Speaker 1: I mean because right after nine eleven there was this moment,
Speaker 1: brief moment when it seemed like the world was going
Speaker 1: to come together and be you know, supportive of of
Speaker 1: the United States and try to heal from that, you know, tragedy.
Speaker 1: But then all the next thing, you know, we were
Speaker 1: invading Iraq, and it was just such a kind of
Speaker 1: non sequitur and uh, really traumatic experience that I still
Speaker 1: think believe we we you know, suffer the consequences of so. Yes,
Speaker 1: at that point, the Judy record became a reminder of
Speaker 1: sort of a slim reminder of of of of just
Speaker 1: the occasions where you know, the US can be a
Speaker 1: fabulous place and create you know, love and and and
Speaker 1: and brilliance and and and positivity. And yes, I think
Speaker 1: definitely today, in this day and age, especially even maybe
Speaker 1: even more than back then, at least domestically, Um, we
Speaker 1: are in a you know, a pretty sad predicament and
Speaker 1: and and and and we have to once again, you know,
Speaker 1: try to resurrect what what what makes this place a
Speaker 1: great place, the United States? I mean, just this, the
Speaker 1: spirit of this music, I feel like it's so so
Speaker 1: necessary and needed right now. And obviously your relationship with
Speaker 1: Judy Trance ends the Carnegie whole album. You have a
Speaker 1: very deep relationship with the song over the Rainbow, which
Speaker 1: you've been singing since you were a child. How did
Speaker 1: you first get in touch with with Judy? Yeah, well
Speaker 1: it's funny because I had there's a there's a sort
Speaker 1: of there's a classic story at this point in my
Speaker 1: life where, um, when I first met Laurena Left, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Judy's daughter, I was, I think, and this
Speaker 1: is all on film. I believe somewhere I should find
Speaker 1: the footage anyways, but I one of the first things
Speaker 1: I said to her was, you know, somewhere the Rainbow
Speaker 1: was my song. I just sort of brazenly, you know,
Speaker 1: expressed that because you know, I I sang it since
Speaker 1: I was a little little kid, and you know, just
Speaker 1: totally missing the point that you know, it was actually
Speaker 1: written for her mother. So so um so yes, I've
Speaker 1: always had a very intense relationship to that piece of music,
Speaker 1: demandly because my mother taught it to me when I
Speaker 1: was very young, and she used and I guess my
Speaker 1: you know, rendition was so captivating that that, uh, it
Speaker 1: became a kind of weapon that she could use, you know,
Speaker 1: at parties and you know it either you know, you know,
Speaker 1: get people's attention or to you know, let's say, ended
Speaker 1: an evening you know where things have gotten a little
Speaker 1: too sloppy, so bring down the kid and I'm singing
Speaker 1: somewhere the Rainbow and then I could go to bed
Speaker 1: kind of thing. So so it was uh yeah, it
Speaker 1: had a whole range of of of of usages. I
Speaker 1: love your rendition on this new live album. I the
Speaker 1: the acapella opening was just yeah, that's well, that's very
Speaker 1: much an homage to my mother, Like it came mcgarriga,
Speaker 1: who sadly passed away over ten years ago. So so
Speaker 1: me saying because on the original Carnegie Hall album she's
Speaker 1: accompanying me solo on the piano and that the orchestra
Speaker 1: comes in, so it's it's a nod to at It's
Speaker 1: so beautiful. I mean, there's so many incredible moments on
Speaker 1: this record. I mean I wanted to ask you to me.
Speaker 1: Judy Garland is just one of the most compelling figures
Speaker 1: in entertainment. I mean, her talent, her strength, her stories.
Speaker 1: I love her movies and her albums. I love the
Speaker 1: autobiography tape she made where you just hear her fire.
Speaker 1: I just think it's so so captivating. What is it
Speaker 1: about Judy that that captivates you? Yeah? Well, I mean
Speaker 1: it started early, um, you know with the Wizard of
Speaker 1: Oz and all of that. But I will say that
Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's a there's a funny little
Speaker 1: family connection as well, because you know, my dad loud
Speaker 1: and Win right the third he was actually briefly or
Speaker 1: for for a couple of years, uh brought up uh
Speaker 1: in Um in Beverly Hills because his father, my grandfather,
Speaker 1: Loudon Jr. Was he was covering Hollywood for Life magazine
Speaker 1: and they they they they were friends with Judy Um
Speaker 1: and uh and and and in fact, Judy Garland I
Speaker 1: think babysat my dad or something and uh and him
Speaker 1: in lies that used to hang out as as when
Speaker 1: they were around ten years old. So so so there
Speaker 1: is actually a personal connection. Um. And I'm now you know,
Speaker 1: quite good friends with with Laurena as well. So it's
Speaker 1: been you know, a couple of generations here or three
Speaker 1: arguably and um. But but yes, in terms of her
Speaker 1: music and her um you know, star status and and
Speaker 1: and and the power of her, of her of her legacy.
Speaker 1: Yet know that that that hit me young and and
Speaker 1: then all through my life, you know, whether it was
Speaker 1: you know, my my trials and tribulations with addiction, or
Speaker 1: my desire to be like the best thing er possible,
Speaker 1: or my you know, just wanting to have a laugh. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, Judy Goldan was always there as a as
Speaker 1: a big kind of sorts. That's what is always fascinating
Speaker 1: about her. I mean to this hope and these bluebirds
Speaker 1: and rainbows in the face of these tremendous you know,
Speaker 1: personal demons and and just that that strength that she
Speaker 1: always displayed. You mentioned story with your father. I love
Speaker 1: your song me and Liza. I think it's an attribute
Speaker 1: to this. It's a great track, definitely, definitely so this album.
Speaker 1: You recorded the album at Capital and you use the
Speaker 1: mic she use, which that must have been just so special.
Speaker 1: I'm a huge believer in in places and artifacts being
Speaker 1: imbued with that energy. What was that like? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: on one hand, it was incredible, But I also feel like,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, it's quite common in the sense
Speaker 1: that you know, I've worked and I've worked in um
Speaker 1: amazing studios for years and and and in Hollywood, uh
Speaker 1: and Los Angeles, storry, all over the city. UM, and
Speaker 1: you know, a really amazing mic is often used, you know,
Speaker 1: so so because they don't make them like they used
Speaker 1: to do. And there is something very organic about that
Speaker 1: whole um world. And and so I'm pretty sure that
Speaker 1: a lot I've used a lot of mics that have
Speaker 1: been used by a lot of great people. Um. But yes,
Speaker 1: take that out and and really focusing on that for
Speaker 1: this recording. Was was was a was a wonderful experience. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think especially doing it in the room you
Speaker 1: know where where she where she recorded herself, you know,
Speaker 1: gave it an extra um kind of you know, sparkle
Speaker 1: but um. But yeah, but it's it's one of the
Speaker 1: perks of of of living in in in l A.
Speaker 1: You know, there are problems with this town, but there
Speaker 1: there are there are upsides too. I mean that room
Speaker 1: in that microphone that was at a concert of yours
Speaker 1: once and you describe yourself as the secret child of
Speaker 1: Judy Garland and Frank Sinatra. So I feel like being
Speaker 1: in that room is perfect right, Yes, Yes, I was,
Speaker 1: I was. I was born in that room. Do you
Speaker 1: came out I came out of an amplifier, an old
Speaker 1: tube amplifier. Yeah. Classic. Did you own any any artifacts
Speaker 1: of Judy's Um? Do I own any artifacts of chitties? Uh?
Speaker 1: You know, I don't. Um. I I do have a
Speaker 1: signed copy of of of her of her you know,
Speaker 1: Carnegie Hall record she signed, UM, I don't the one
Speaker 1: that I you know, I was very close to Carrie Fisher. Um.
Speaker 1: So I have some you know, um some some some
Speaker 1: of her stuff, but uh and and some stuff of
Speaker 1: her mother's but but nothing of Judy's yet. I'd like
Speaker 1: to get what I'd love to get as a compact.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a collector of compacts. I had quite a
Speaker 1: few compacts of famous opera singers, uh, like you know,
Speaker 1: Jane Caspan, Victoria de Los Angeles, so, you know, for
Speaker 1: makeup and stuff. So maybe I'll maybe I'll ask Laurena
Speaker 1: if she could you know one day. Wantemplate that as
Speaker 1: a as a gift of sorts, or I'll pay get
Speaker 1: up something I love. I watched the the Virtual Concert
Speaker 1: when this was recorded, and I love that your your
Speaker 1: micro audience consists of Renais l Wigger obviously is a
Speaker 1: dear friend of yours and brilliantly portrayed Judy. And I
Speaker 1: was wondering when she was in the midst of making
Speaker 1: that film, did you both talk about you know, but
Speaker 1: kind of getting inside Judy at all. I mean, we
Speaker 1: we had a we had a couple of interactions, but
Speaker 1: but she had already really made the film at that point.
Speaker 1: You know, this was when we were she was working
Speaker 1: on the album, uh from the movie. But uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I yes, we had a couple of conversations of sort
Speaker 1: of the act, but it was mostly about the aftermath
Speaker 1: of having you know, inhabited her her her spirit and
Speaker 1: so so yeah, it was, it was, it was, It
Speaker 1: was really um wonderful. But but but in terms of
Speaker 1: like when when you know, when she began that process,
Speaker 1: you know, I think she was. She's a she's a professional,
Speaker 1: she knows that she's doing, doesn't need my help. I think.
Speaker 1: Referring to the the original concert you did in in
Speaker 1: OH six, you described it as an exorcism of sorts.
Speaker 1: I was. I thought that was a really interesting choice
Speaker 1: of words. I wanted to ask you more about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it was very much a kind of um celebration,
Speaker 1: but yes, and an exorcism as well. I had sort
Speaker 1: of um moved to Hollywood to make my first album,
Speaker 1: and and and and brought along my you know, Judy obsession,
Speaker 1: uh as well, And and I kind of went on
Speaker 1: and on and on and and and then. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: at a certain point when I decided to do the
Speaker 1: the Carnegial concert, I I think I was, I was
Speaker 1: just ready for another stage in my life, uh where
Speaker 1: I could sort of, um, I don't know, just uh
Speaker 1: focus on on on on on other kind of legacies,
Speaker 1: shall we say. Um and uh and so I I
Speaker 1: I and I did. Actually after after that series of concerts, UM,
Speaker 1: I feel less kind of you know, um inclined to uh,
Speaker 1: you know, to to to buy a Judy Garland record
Speaker 1: whenever I would go to a record store, which was
Speaker 1: which I used to do all the time. Um. And
Speaker 1: It's also interesting is that when I did the tenth
Speaker 1: anniversary concerts UM at both Carnegie Hall and also in
Speaker 1: Toronto with an orchestra, UM, the minute I started them, UM,
Speaker 1: I instantly felt nothing like Judy Garland. I really did
Speaker 1: feel much more like my dad, Frank Sinatra. Um and
Speaker 1: you know, had this had more of a masculine um
Speaker 1: kind of approach, kind of more tougher uh delivery, shall
Speaker 1: we say. But but what's nice is it now with
Speaker 1: this recording that I did it. But we did at
Speaker 1: Capital Studios and and so forth. Um, I think I
Speaker 1: feel like she's returned. You know, I feel like there's
Speaker 1: there's sort of I'm maybe more channel challenge, channeling her
Speaker 1: her studio work and her um and her kind of
Speaker 1: how can I say, at her her kind of almost
Speaker 1: medical or uh find you know, attention paid to to
Speaker 1: the songs. You know, there's a clinical um precision, ability,
Speaker 1: precision that she had or with singing that that's that's
Speaker 1: captured in her studio work. So so yeah, So it's
Speaker 1: so she's back. Oh That's one of the things that
Speaker 1: I think is so amazing about these arrangements that are
Speaker 1: more stripped down. It doesn't have the thirty six piece orchestra,
Speaker 1: but a small jazz combos. I feel like there's there's
Speaker 1: more room for the emotion to shine through, and we
Speaker 1: can hear kind of every breath of and pause of
Speaker 1: yours more And I think that that makes it. It
Speaker 1: adds a level of I don't know what the right
Speaker 1: word is. Darkness is certainly not the word I want
Speaker 1: to use. But there's you can step depth, which which
Speaker 1: is uh yeah, I I you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: a combination of things. It's both doing it in the studio,
Speaker 1: but also the fact that I've now been singing these
Speaker 1: songs for almost twenty years. So there they are, you
Speaker 1: know very much, and and encrusted in my bones and stuff.
Speaker 1: And wish Judy had when she did her Carneie Hall show.
Speaker 1: That was always something that um that I feel like
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I just I could never you know, match,
Speaker 1: But now that I feel like I can make me
Speaker 1: match on certain numbers, not all of them by any means,
Speaker 1: but on certain ones. You know, those songs I have
Speaker 1: made my own some of them. Is it in a
Speaker 1: sense because you you've lived some of them in a way,
Speaker 1: as suddenly those experiences are are more personal to you. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean they're also you know, you know, there are
Speaker 1: love songs, and there are also songs about survival and
Speaker 1: songs about you know, sentimental um thoughts and and and
Speaker 1: uh so, yes, I think as you get older, you
Speaker 1: um yeah, you start to you know, things become more
Speaker 1: precious and more valuable and and more fleeting and and
Speaker 1: uh and and so therefore or a little bit more
Speaker 1: you know sad. So so so it's just to the songs,
Speaker 1: I could sort of imbue the song with that and
Speaker 1: That's the thing that always blows me ways that all
Speaker 1: I've I've reached to put on your your live album
Speaker 1: or Horror original live one as well, over the years.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'll put it on when I want to,
Speaker 1: you know, hear, when I feel a little nostalgic and
Speaker 1: I want to hear you know, almost like being in
Speaker 1: love or something and feel a little up, and I'll
Speaker 1: put it on. And I'm always blown away by the
Speaker 1: power of it and just struck by the path it's.
Speaker 1: Is that just the depth of it is. It's so
Speaker 1: you know, you you expect some you know, some some levity,
Speaker 1: but I'm always it's always becomes a something that you
Speaker 1: can't put on in the background. Let me put it back,
Speaker 1: something that demands your attention. Yes, well, that's that's interesting
Speaker 1: to bring that up, because I think, on one hand
Speaker 1: that has been my greatest asset and also my greatest attraction.
Speaker 1: Why is that, well, in the sense I mean like
Speaker 1: the music that I've I've created, whether it's my Judy
Speaker 1: Garland work or my other albums for that matter, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, yes, you cannot put them in the background,
Speaker 1: and and they demand a certain amount of attention, and
Speaker 1: that that works great. You know if you're into music
Speaker 1: and you want to kind of go on that journey.
Speaker 1: But if you just want to sit around and have
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee or be watch a commercial and
Speaker 1: focus on you know, the car, uh, then uh, then
Speaker 1: my music is it can be problematic because because because
Speaker 1: it does demand all everyone's attention so so um so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's something that I've always tried to juggle, you know.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, let's just say that we don't
Speaker 1: live in necessarily the most um kind of thoughtful period
Speaker 1: of time and and uh yeah, so it's it's a struggle.
Speaker 1: But but on the other hand, I think for those
Speaker 1: who who do appreciate that and who are willing to
Speaker 1: um go on the journey with me, you know, they're there,
Speaker 1: they become very loyal and and uh and and and
Speaker 1: they keep coming back. So it's that's how that's how
Speaker 1: it works for me. I feel like I owe you
Speaker 1: a huge thanks as a as a music fan, I
Speaker 1: was always aware of this concert and in its place
Speaker 1: in pop culture history, but it really wasn't until Your
Speaker 1: Rendition in two thousand and six and the album came
Speaker 1: out and the following year that I delved into this
Speaker 1: catalog and absorbed these songs, and I was wondering how
Speaker 1: much of that was a motivating factor for you to
Speaker 1: kind of pass these songs along to people that you
Speaker 1: know might not know him. You know, that's a whole
Speaker 1: uh subject on its own. Um. The you know the
Speaker 1: fact that that that that period in American songwriting is
Speaker 1: arguably the you know, kind of the golden era of
Speaker 1: of American music. Um. Whether it's you know, the the
Speaker 1: arrangements or the lyrics or the melodies. You know that
Speaker 1: it seemed like everything was working at full speed at
Speaker 1: that time. UM and uh so so yeah, I I
Speaker 1: I very much consider it kind of a legacy that
Speaker 1: that that as an as an American and I'm both
Speaker 1: the Canadian and American, but but on my American side,
Speaker 1: you know, I it's important to m celebrate and try
Speaker 1: to match, you know, uh, whether it's with your singing
Speaker 1: or your or your songwriting, um, for so that we
Speaker 1: can continue this um you know this uh excellence um
Speaker 1: and uh and so forth. Do you feel in any
Speaker 1: way that you've come to understand Judy any better having
Speaker 1: gotten insider for these songs and these performances. Uh? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I I do feel that there's a through
Speaker 1: this performances and the songs. I mean I I do
Speaker 1: under I am constantly and this hasn't really changed over
Speaker 1: the years. You know. Amazed by her technical ability in
Speaker 1: the sense not so much innurse singing. I mean she's, yes,
Speaker 1: she's an incredible singer, and she cuts the corners and
Speaker 1: and that's fantastic, but justn't know her whole presentation, you know,
Speaker 1: how how how how she really knew how to move
Speaker 1: on stage, you know, how she where where her gaze
Speaker 1: was focused her and because she was an incredible dancer,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, and so just that whole kind of
Speaker 1: training thing which which which in my in our day
Speaker 1: and age, is so lacking you know, uh in terms
Speaker 1: of the entertainers today. Um, though some could do it,
Speaker 1: you know when you you know, justin Bieber, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga, you know, they they you know, they worked
Speaker 1: really hard on the full package. So so that's so
Speaker 1: it's not dead or anything, but but hers is so
Speaker 1: effortless and so kind of I don't know, elegant, and
Speaker 1: uh so there's that, but but in terms of actually
Speaker 1: talking to people who knew her um and worked with her. Um,
Speaker 1: I am. I am always fascinated by how I think
Speaker 1: her personality was very different from from that which the
Speaker 1: public expected, you know it was I think she was
Speaker 1: I think she was a lot sort of dirtier in
Speaker 1: the sense like she was she was kind of she
Speaker 1: had a real kind of uh, how can I say,
Speaker 1: this wicked streak in her that was hilarious but also
Speaker 1: pretty you know, uh, scary if you were you know,
Speaker 1: in the line of fire and uh and there was
Speaker 1: this kind of you know, punk rock thing about her
Speaker 1: that um that is always you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: pretty pretty, fascinating and uh and and makes me of
Speaker 1: course appreciate her more. Oh yeah, And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't she was not a good girl. I mean,
Speaker 1: what's those interviews with her? You know, I think it's
Speaker 1: Steve Allen that she's all She gives these great interviews,
Speaker 1: but she tells these stories and they're there. She's rowdy
Speaker 1: on network TV in the early sixties. It's incredible she is.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 1: So interesting, so multifaceted. And I do want to say,
Speaker 1: as somebody who's senior, perform a number of times for
Speaker 1: twenty years. Oh my god, yeah, twenty years. Um. I
Speaker 1: truly believe as a fan you have you possessed that effortlessness.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you you do what you do,
Speaker 1: you have this ability to I saw you at Lupo's
Speaker 1: Heartbreak Hotel and Rhode Island in two thousand three. I believe,
Speaker 1: and it felt like you were saying I remember I
Speaker 1: was there with a dear friend of mine and we
Speaker 1: were driving home after he said, Oh my god, it
Speaker 1: felt like he was singing to us. And I feel
Speaker 1: like that's something that that Judy and all the greats
Speaker 1: have where you just connect with everybody in the audience
Speaker 1: and I um, so well, thank you. Um. This Judy
Speaker 1: uh concert was the finale of your I have to pause.
Speaker 1: Rufus Well, Rufus Retro Wayne Right spective. There we Go
Speaker 1: was the finale of you Rufus Retro Wayne Right spective
Speaker 1: where you revisited all your past albums. Um. We actually
Speaker 1: spoke soon after you started doing these shows in early
Speaker 1: for your debut and poses. I want to ask you
Speaker 1: what is your relationship like to these earlier songs? Now?
Speaker 1: Do you recognize that person who wrote them and recorded them?
Speaker 1: Or is it like looking at an old school photo. No,
Speaker 1: I mean I know that they're all very I do.
Speaker 1: I do recognize that that person. I mean I tend
Speaker 1: to subscribe to a more kind of Hindu type explanation
Speaker 1: of existence. I'm not I'm not Hindu, but but there's
Speaker 1: they they for instance, and I'm really you know, butchering
Speaker 1: this whole concept. Um. But you know, essentially they believe that,
Speaker 1: you know, a person is made up of six or
Speaker 1: seven people, and uh, and that you know, and I
Speaker 1: felt over the years that these very much like a tree, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I developed these branches of my personality and
Speaker 1: and and at this point, you know, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: high up and and uh and I can look down
Speaker 1: and and really, you know, still feel and see you know,
Speaker 1: these other characters that have that have that have that
Speaker 1: I that I've in habitant and created and and that
Speaker 1: are still you know, within me. So it's it's, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the minute you start to say, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: no longer that person, that's you know the beginning of
Speaker 1: the end, that's when that person decides to you know,
Speaker 1: hijack the situation. So so so, yes, I'm very respectful
Speaker 1: of my past of my past incarnations. You recently released
Speaker 1: a incredibly fascinating x called an audio memoir on Audible
Speaker 1: called road Trip Elegies Montreal to New York. One of
Speaker 1: the most powerful moments for me was a conversation you
Speaker 1: had with you with your aunt Anna where she told you,
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing to embrace your family's fantastic legacy, which to
Speaker 1: me it was just like the opening of an Arthurian legend. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just so I've seen those as and
Speaker 1: clips of you performing, you know, HMS pianoforre at school
Speaker 1: as a team. Was music something that was always something
Speaker 1: of sort of like a given for you? Or was
Speaker 1: there a turning point? No? No, music was always front
Speaker 1: and center. Um. And that that's really mostly due to
Speaker 1: my mother, Kate, who you know, now that she's passed.
Speaker 1: I I really you know, I can quantify the the
Speaker 1: loss um and um because you know, she was someone
Speaker 1: who always needed to play the piano, always needed to,
Speaker 1: you know, teach a song to someone, always needed to
Speaker 1: hear what someone's voices was like if they were visiting,
Speaker 1: you know, like music was just always streaming through her
Speaker 1: through her veins. And uh. And now that she's she's
Speaker 1: she's gone. It's the world is is very different, you know,
Speaker 1: it's I mean I love to sing, my sister loves
Speaker 1: to sing, My aunt Anna loves to sing. But we're
Speaker 1: not necessarily you know, doing it every night, which when
Speaker 1: my when my mother was alive, you know, that was
Speaker 1: the case. We still perform a lot, and music is
Speaker 1: still very central. But but but Kate was really the engine.
Speaker 1: Uh So, Yeah, I loved your song for her beauty, Mark, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of yours such a great uh smirk of a tribute.
Speaker 1: I love it so much. I mean, I'm hard pressed
Speaker 1: to think of an artist who right out of the
Speaker 1: gate had developed such a singular voice and style that
Speaker 1: was all your own. I mean, it just seemed like
Speaker 1: you arrived completely fully formed. What was inspiring you when
Speaker 1: you first went into the studio to to record your
Speaker 1: your debut, Well, I mean I think I was brought
Speaker 1: up and and both by my mother and father actually
Speaker 1: uh and family members that to to really appreciate excellence
Speaker 1: in all sorts of songwriting, you know, whether it was
Speaker 1: standards or classical music or folk music. I mean there
Speaker 1: was a real wide variety of material that I grew
Speaker 1: up with and appreciate it. And so I just felt
Speaker 1: like whatever I was gonna do, it had to map
Speaker 1: at that code, you know, and it had to be
Speaker 1: something that was really attempting to to to to you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, just last and uh so, so I
Speaker 1: just had that that that that drilled into me as
Speaker 1: as as a young person, and when I went in
Speaker 1: to make my records, you know, that was my one,
Speaker 1: my my main uh objective. I mean, it wasn't necessarily
Speaker 1: about you know, what the kids were doing at that time,
Speaker 1: or who I was hanging out with, or what was
Speaker 1: going on in the mainstream. It was just about, like,
Speaker 1: let's try and create something that's that's as good as
Speaker 1: what I grew up, what I've heard so far and
Speaker 1: what I've learned to appreciate. And there was this kind
Speaker 1: of tunnel vision that um that once again was was
Speaker 1: was was. It was a help and a hindrance because
Speaker 1: you know, I was I was certainly recognized, but I
Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't by any means what what was going on,
Speaker 1: uh musically at that time. So it was it was
Speaker 1: an interesting journey. Here's a a loaded question that I
Speaker 1: didn't write down, but it's just popping on my head. Now,
Speaker 1: do you consider yourself a romantic? Um? Well, I always
Speaker 1: find the word romantic so interesting because you know, it
Speaker 1: comes from Rome. Um. You know, I guess it's it's
Speaker 1: sort of about you know, it pertains to you know,
Speaker 1: like these kind of Germans and uh, you know, nineteenth
Speaker 1: century figures who started to you know, become these neo
Speaker 1: classic type of uh worshippers and and other things. But
Speaker 1: but but Rome itself was very very kind of unforgiving
Speaker 1: and you know, unemotional and kind of stoic, you know,
Speaker 1: as a culture. So I so I think in a
Speaker 1: strange way when I think of romantic I think of
Speaker 1: two sides. I think, yes, uh, you know, yeah, I
Speaker 1: am emotional. I am you know, I am driven by
Speaker 1: my heart's desires. I am you know, swept away. But
Speaker 1: I'm also very disciplined and very very kind of um
Speaker 1: pragmatic and you know, dictatorial. But I need to be
Speaker 1: uh so, So yes, I think in the full sense
Speaker 1: of the word, thinking about the both of nineteent century
Speaker 1: Romanticism and also Rome the Roman culture. Um I I
Speaker 1: can kind of inhabit both. What is your process like
Speaker 1: when you are writing? Is do you have a feeling
Speaker 1: that you want to express and go to a piano
Speaker 1: and kind of play it out of you or do
Speaker 1: you hear music in your mind and it's just a
Speaker 1: case of getting it down. I mean it's both. I
Speaker 1: I set you know, kind of uh, little traps for myself,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's whether it's you know, having to
Speaker 1: write a song for musicals or you know, for for
Speaker 1: an album coming up. But then but then coupled with that,
Speaker 1: I will, I will, I will be pretty awake and
Speaker 1: kind of um willing to receive messages from wherever, you know,
Speaker 1: and there's often like terms of phrases or little melodies
Speaker 1: that kind of strike me and that I know immediately
Speaker 1: that I've caught something by the tail and then I
Speaker 1: gotta go home and you know, reel it in. So
Speaker 1: so it's it's kind of a combination of both of
Speaker 1: you know, being very organized about it and also being
Speaker 1: completely receptive and willing to you know, go with the flow.
Speaker 1: Is there an element of superstition involved at all? Oh? Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: totally for me. I mean, I do you know, I
Speaker 1: I have tarot cards, I I visit you know, grave sites,
Speaker 1: you know, I I do Uh, I have pilgrimages. I
Speaker 1: I I I respect you know, birthdays of of of
Speaker 1: famous songwriters and stuff. So it's so yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: it's all whatever for whatever powers I could muster, I
Speaker 1: I I call in. I love that so much. That
Speaker 1: was something I loved about road Trip Elegies where you
Speaker 1: kind of talked abou out the relationship between geography and
Speaker 1: creativity and songwriting, and I thought that was so cool.
Speaker 1: How how a place can influence you, you know, so deeply,
Speaker 1: and you live in Laurel Canyon, Now that must be
Speaker 1: very inspiring. No, it is incredibly inspiring. And I'm actually
Speaker 1: working on an album now that I'm finishing up, which
Speaker 1: is really more folk based. Um and yeah, I've been
Speaker 1: singing some of those you know, classic loyal canon numbers
Speaker 1: and and uh yeah, very very much. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: bring back this kind of sixties uh optimism that uh
Speaker 1: that we are sadly you know not and happening at
Speaker 1: the moment. I've been loving some of your your covers
Speaker 1: that I saw Harvest recently, and your version of who
Speaker 1: Knows Where the Time Goes with Brandy Carlisle is amazing.
Speaker 1: So I love your your covers of that era Um,
Speaker 1: there's there was an interview you gave recently that was
Speaker 1: so interesting where you were talking about the song Poses
Speaker 1: and which is something that I had always assumed was autobiographical,
Speaker 1: and you're talking about how you wrote it about an
Speaker 1: acquaintance or a friend. And it wasn't until years later
Speaker 1: that you realize you were sort of describing what was
Speaker 1: happening to you. And I wanted to ask, do you
Speaker 1: often find yourself learning things about yourself from your own songs? Um? Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I will say that, you know,
Speaker 1: for anybody who wants to know the truth about me
Speaker 1: and and who wants to sort of dive into the
Speaker 1: deep end of of my you know existence, it's all
Speaker 1: in my songs. I mean it's everything that I write
Speaker 1: is very much um bound to you know, a personal um,
Speaker 1: either a personal experience or a personal view or a
Speaker 1: personal you know, trauma, whatever. And and it's kind of
Speaker 1: and I have found over the years now that I
Speaker 1: start to look back at the songs that I wrote,
Speaker 1: wrote when I was a lot younger, that that that
Speaker 1: in fact I was I was being um, very honest
Speaker 1: and very kind of UM. I was bearing myself in
Speaker 1: this material and Uh. And that is the true kind
Speaker 1: of testament of of of who I am and what
Speaker 1: I what I believe in. Um, so it's uh, it's
Speaker 1: all in there and uh and that is uh you
Speaker 1: know I've made that that bargain, you know. Uh So, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: And yours songs are so personal, which is I think
Speaker 1: why so many people connect with them. At what point
Speaker 1: do you start thinking about the audience when you're writing
Speaker 1: or do you not? Is that? Is that limiting to you? Well?
Speaker 1: I like to think what I The only thing that
Speaker 1: I like to think about is that if if the
Speaker 1: song is to be interpreted by somebody else, or if
Speaker 1: it's um, you know, to be approached in a way
Speaker 1: that the that the performer doesn't have any kind of
Speaker 1: connection to me or know anything about the backstory that
Speaker 1: that it does make sense. You know that it has
Speaker 1: its own kind of architecture. So I am cognizant of that.
Speaker 1: And I also think a lot about you know, uh
Speaker 1: you know, am I you know, ripping off someone else?
Speaker 1: Or is this too similar to to something I've written before?
Speaker 1: You know it it doesn't stand on its own, so
Speaker 1: I I do. I am very cognizant and careful about
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. I feel that a lot of
Speaker 1: creative people find it hard to to make a differentiation
Speaker 1: between their lives and their work, and which for good reason,
Speaker 1: because it's such a reflection of yourself and who you are,
Speaker 1: and it comes from such a personal place and whatever
Speaker 1: you're going through. Other times, when you feel like that,
Speaker 1: when you feel like it's tough to distinguish between those
Speaker 1: two draw draw line. Um, I mean there, I think
Speaker 1: it's I think there are, but it's mostly in life.
Speaker 1: I mean in the sense that you know, I work
Speaker 1: all the time and I'm writing all the time, and
Speaker 1: I kind of live in this kind of cloud like
Speaker 1: I live in this cloud, in this cloud like existence. Um.
Speaker 1: But then when there are you know, daily or or
Speaker 1: maybe maybe more weekly, shall we say, events that occur
Speaker 1: where you know, you've got to do your homework with
Speaker 1: with your your kid, or you have to clean up
Speaker 1: the house, or you have to, um go to the doctor,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, you know, you you do? Um, you
Speaker 1: are you are. I am kind of woken up and
Speaker 1: and a bit brutally and taken out of this dream
Speaker 1: that I'm that I'm mostly inhabits So it's um. But
Speaker 1: but but you know, it's it's uh, look, I'm a
Speaker 1: very fortunate man. I have I have incredible family and friends,
Speaker 1: and and I've done well in my career, so I
Speaker 1: can afford, you know, to live a certain way. So
Speaker 1: it's so it's it's all good. Uh, but yes, it
Speaker 1: can be a bit of a rude awakening when you
Speaker 1: have to you know, do you do homework with your
Speaker 1: eleven year old and you're like, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: might not know this. Oh, Viva has got to have
Speaker 1: the best taste in music of any eleven year old.
Speaker 1: Oh my good, she has very good tasted music. She does. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: she loves Dolly Parton, she loves she loves um the
Speaker 1: rhythmex you know. She yeah, she has she has a
Speaker 1: good ship. And she also knows all the popular stuff
Speaker 1: that the kids listened to. So she's yeah, she's very
Speaker 1: very curious kid in that sense. Has she taught you
Speaker 1: any new any new music names yet or is that
Speaker 1: kind of a few years down the road. Uh, She's
Speaker 1: tried to. But I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty um, I'm
Speaker 1: a bad stupid That sense of what's popular I've always been,
Speaker 1: you know, I I it takes me several years to
Speaker 1: realize why something is a hit, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of not the point of the whole exercise. It's funny.
Speaker 1: In the last two years, I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's been so uncertain and stressful. I've been finding myself
Speaker 1: revisiting music I haven't listened to in decades, stuff I
Speaker 1: listened to in high school, just as kind of musical
Speaker 1: comfort food. Have you been been doing that kind of
Speaker 1: like we're talking about with Judy. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: there's some interesting stuff. I mean that now there's I
Speaker 1: mean little not I do like little Nazacs. I actually
Speaker 1: like the Weekend um, and I do you know that
Speaker 1: it's not all terrible. Um. But that being said, I
Speaker 1: I don't feel that there's necessarily a kind of we're
Speaker 1: in a high point in terms of songwriting. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it seems more about, you know, the package that's being
Speaker 1: offered and sort of the dream that's being um attacked
Speaker 1: or or that they're attacking with. And uh so it's
Speaker 1: it's not it's not about the actual songs themselves. That
Speaker 1: and that's you know, but that but that's my territory.
Speaker 1: That's where I'm sort of, you know, staking my my
Speaker 1: my claim. Last summer on the heels of your absolutely
Speaker 1: phenomenal and Grammy nominated I might add album un Follow
Speaker 1: the Rules, you released the track with Amber Sounds called
Speaker 1: techno Opera UM, which was a whole new sound for you.
Speaker 1: So cool, rufus does E D m uh? Where where
Speaker 1: did that come from? Is that something that you want
Speaker 1: to explore further? So that was a bit of a
Speaker 1: that was a bit of a pandemic pastime because you know,
Speaker 1: I worked with with Zen Freeman on that and uh
Speaker 1: and um, and he lives down the street. So I
Speaker 1: think it was one of these things. I think it
Speaker 1: was one of these things where, you know, because there
Speaker 1: weren't there wasn't touring going on and and and we were,
Speaker 1: you know, homebound, that it was a good idea to
Speaker 1: just check out who lived in the neighborhood and who
Speaker 1: we could just hang out with, um, you know, safely
Speaker 1: and and and and make music with. So so I
Speaker 1: think that that really stemmed from that whole situation. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's been so many incredible home concerts that you've shared
Speaker 1: with fans over the last two years. While we're all
Speaker 1: kind of homebound, and obviously you're keeping busy with music.
Speaker 1: Are there any other sort of new hobbies that you've
Speaker 1: discovered in the last two years. Uh, well, drawing, I've
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of illustrating. Yeah, yeah, no. I
Speaker 1: I went to art school briefly in Montreal when I
Speaker 1: was uh, you know, in my twenties and so so
Speaker 1: uh yeah, I've taken that back up and and uh
Speaker 1: and it seems to have stuck. Um. I now draw regularly,
Speaker 1: and we used some of the artwork in the in
Speaker 1: the last album, but you will be seeing more of
Speaker 1: it in the future as well. Oh that's so exciting.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, do you have any how far I know,
Speaker 1: probably too early to say, but how far along is
Speaker 1: this new album? It's almost we're mixing it right now,
Speaker 1: this folk record. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: I'm allowed to even announce anything, but but it will be.
Speaker 1: I think it's going to come out around my birthday,
Speaker 1: which is uh and in about a year, so so
Speaker 1: there's still time. But it's um or or in an
Speaker 1: honor memberthday. I'll be fifty next year, um so so
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's around my fifty birthday. We're gonna we're
Speaker 1: gonna have a what is it a picking session? Who's
Speaker 1: a picking? Oh? My good, it's rufous. I could talk
Speaker 1: to you all day. I my my last question before
Speaker 1: I let you go, and it's a corny one, but
Speaker 1: I'm genuinely curious. If you could have a moment with
Speaker 1: Judy and you could say one thing or what would
Speaker 1: it be. I I think I would just say thank
Speaker 1: you for inspiring me for so long and also for
Speaker 1: being this um, you know, endless um source of fascination,
Speaker 1: both both fascinating and inspiring. So yeah, I just had
Speaker 1: a big thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode
Speaker 1: of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows,
Speaker 1: check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite podcast.