1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: me your girl Daniel Moody. Pre recording from the Long 3 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: Island Bunker, Folks. As you know, I have taken a 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: little respite as we prepare for what is going to 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: be just fast paced, NonStop as we head into convention 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: and get closer and closer to the election. But I 7 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: am leaving you with some really thoughtful, insightful episodes with 8 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: some of our favorites and some new voices. And today 9 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,319 Speaker 1: is a new voice, Doctor John J. Berger, who's an 10 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: environmental scientist and policy expert, joins WOKF to talk about 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: his book Solving the Climate Crisis Frontline reports from the 12 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Race to Save Earth, and we get into a really 13 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: in depth, the detailed conversation about the crisis that we 14 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: are in, and he offers up some very clear solutions, 15 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: clear ways that our politicians need to act now from 16 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: a place of urgency because the situation is becoming dire 17 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: and is existential to our ability to, oh, I don't know, 18 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: continue on this planet. So coming up next my conversation 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: with doctor John Jay Berger. Folks. I am very excited 20 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: to welcome to OOKF Daily, author of the book solving 21 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: the climate crisis. Frontline reports from the Race to Save Earth. 22 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: Doctor John J. Berger, who is an expert on the issue, 23 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: is an environmental science and policy specialist as well as 24 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: a prize winning author. Doctor Burger, talk to us about 25 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: where you see the world right now. For years, for 26 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: decades now, we have been warned about our warming climate. 27 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: We've been warned about rising sea levels and intense storms, 28 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: and it seems like every single day there is another 29 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: devastating headline. Have we reached the point of no return? 30 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: No? I don't believe that we have, Danielle, I think 31 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: that the science is pretty clear that if we are 32 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: able to reduce our carbon emissions down to zero, which 33 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: is a decadal challenge, then the climate will begin to 34 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: cool in two to three years. And the climate is 35 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: responsive only to the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. 36 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 2: It doesn't care what political party we are, it doesn't 37 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: care what we say, and it doesn't care about the 38 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: policies that we nominally introduce. It's only interested in the 39 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide concentration and the methane concentration and the nitros 40 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: oxide concentration in the atmosphere. 41 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that I find that 42 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: is the most frustrating about where we are with the 43 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: climate crisis is that I still feel like we're in 44 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: a place of defense where we're trying to defend against 45 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: attacks around fake science and this is in truthful that 46 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: you know, the globe always warms and it's always hot 47 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: in the summer, that we're still in a place of 48 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: trying to tell people that this is real. And if 49 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: we're in a position of trying to convince people that 50 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: climate change is real, then we're not really able to 51 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: focus on the work. Am I wrong about that? 52 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: I think that there's a tremendous amount of misinformation, and 53 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: there have been studies that show that half of the 54 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: American public at times has basically thought that the change 55 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: that we're seeing in the climate is just a natural 56 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: climate change. But we have seen the myths that have 57 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: been purveyed by the fossil fuel industry change over time. 58 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: First they told us that the climate wasn't warming, it 59 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 2: was actually cooling, and then they said, well, maybe it 60 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 2: is warming, but it's natural and it's good for us. 61 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 2: And so they've kind of evolved, and former President Trump 62 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: now acknowledges that the climate is changing at times, although 63 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 2: he also thinks that climate change is a Chinese hoax, 64 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: and when he does sound off and appear to be 65 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 2: agreeing with the idea that climate change is real, he says, well, 66 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: humans probably don't have anything to do with it, so 67 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: that's just a total bit of it has no scientific support. 68 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: We have scientific results from thousands of scientists and literally 69 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: billions of scientific observations over decades to show that the 70 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: climate is warming as a result of the waste industrial 71 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:23,679 Speaker 2: gases that humans are spewing into the atmosphere, and there's 72 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: a direct correlation if you look at the graph of 73 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: how temperature responds, there is a direct correlation between concentration 74 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: and temperature. And we've been ignoring these facts, and we've 75 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: been ignoring the underlying science in our policy for decades now. 76 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: And we have made some very gentle policy measures that 77 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: have moved us in the right direction, but we are 78 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: nowhere near doing what needs to be done in order 79 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: to really climate change. Bring our emissions down initially to 80 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: net zero and ultimately to zero, and then we are 81 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: actually going to have to be drawing down excess greenhouse 82 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: gas from the atmosphere because we're at such a high 83 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: concentration due to decades of abusing the atmosphere that we 84 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: now need to remedy that situation with specific policy. But 85 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: to the point that I think you raise, we are 86 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: now kind of going hell bent for leather in terms 87 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: of releasing these gases. The world is at the highest 88 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: discharge rate of greenhouse gases ever and the rate is increasing, 89 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: not decreasing. Meanwhile, the United States is the number one 90 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: producer and consumer of oil and natural gas, and the 91 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: world's third largest producer of coal, and we are basically 92 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: not regulating the major financial institutions, the multinational banks that 93 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: are providing trillions of dollars of capital to expand fossil 94 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: fuel production and make this problem even worse. Meanwhile, we 95 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: are spending as a nation hundreds of billions of dollars 96 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: in explicit and implicit subsidies to the maturer multi trillion 97 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: dollar fossil fuel industry, where we are thereby buying more 98 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: severe hurricanes, more drought, and more destabilization and environmental damage 99 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: and public health damage. 100 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: One of the things I find, also with regard to 101 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: where we find ourselves is that I think it was 102 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago that we had had three 103 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: consecutive days of the hottest days that the planet had 104 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: ever seen. And we're seeing temperatures in areas like India 105 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: that are reaching one hundred and twenty some odd degree 106 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: fahrenheit right and places in the Middle East, And it's 107 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: happening in areas that are not the key contributors to 108 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: climate change, but they are the ones that are dealing 109 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: with the brunt and the effects of climate change. And 110 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: so how do we reconcile the fact that while the 111 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: United States is one of the biggest polluters, that because 112 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: we're not the ones that are feeling the effects in 113 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: this moment in relation to these other poorer countries, that 114 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: it's like we're doing these kind of suggestions with regard 115 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: to policy, but it is there's not a sense of urgency. 116 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: This is a very complicated question that you've raised, and 117 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: I want to quibble with the premise of the question. First, 118 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: because although it was one hundred and twenty four twenty 119 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: seven degrees in India, it was one hundred twenty four 120 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: degrees in Palm Springs recently during one of the current 121 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: heat waves, and there's a giant heat dome that has 122 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: been sitting over the midwest of the United States, so 123 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 2: we are feeling these impacts. And in California, where I live, 124 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: we're suffering from an epidemic of extreme wildfire. There's a 125 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: huge wildfire, the fifth largest in the state's history, that's 126 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: raging right now in northern California, and that has already 127 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: consumed six hundred square miles and that incinerates, of course, 128 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: the wildlife and everything in that area, along with hundreds 129 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: of homes. And it's only partially contained. A very small 130 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 2: portion is contained, and there are one hundred wildfires going 131 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: on in California. Now. This has a very big human 132 00:09:54,679 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: climate fingerprint on it. So we are definitely suffering these impacts. 133 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: But the other aspect of your question has to do 134 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 2: with economic injustice and the fact that countries that have 135 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: very little responsibility for having discharged the historic legacy of 136 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 2: climate disturbing gases that are now in the atmosphere are 137 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: feeling the brunt of it. Because many of these countries are, 138 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: as you said, poor, they're trying to develop, they're in 139 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: hot or arid regions, and these regions are going to 140 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 2: be hit the hardest by the heat and the combined 141 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: drought that is coming and that we're already experiencing. We 142 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: have a very prolonged drought in California, which I believe 143 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: we're still in the throes of, although we had a 144 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: rainy year or two, but the overall trend has been 145 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: one of drying in the American West, which is another 146 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: clear fingerprint of climate change. So I think that in 147 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 2: terms of economic justice, the developed countries need to provide 148 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: a lot more assistance in the form of aid to 149 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 2: developing countries so that they can leapfrog the fossil fuel 150 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: era that we've become entangled in and go directly to 151 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: clean solar, wind, geothermal, hydropower, energy storage, so that these 152 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: clean technologies can provide power twenty four hours a day, 153 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: much like any of the traditional power sources. We have 154 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: to accelerate this transition, and ideally the United States would 155 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: become a model of environmental stewardship and climate responsibility and 156 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: as quickly as possible reduce our fossil fuel consumption. We 157 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 2: now use fossil fuels for seventy nine percent of all 158 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: of our energy in the United States, and only about 159 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: twenty one percent comes from renewable sources. These sources are 160 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: growing rapidly. But we need to provide a great deal 161 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: more capital in the form of public private partnerships that 162 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 2: can be used to leverage the trillions of dollars of 163 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: private money that's sitting on the sidelines looking for good 164 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: economic opportunities. And the good news is that if we 165 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: do this, and if we invest adequately in a rapid 166 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 2: clean energy transition, then we're going to be harvesting millions 167 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: of new jobs, will be enjoying better public health, environmental protection, 168 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: and we will be saving trillions of dollars on our 169 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: energy bill in contrast to that we're doing today, which 170 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: is spending one point three trillion dollars every year in 171 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: the United States on fossil fuels, and on top of 172 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: this trillion dollars, there's also about a trillion dollars worth 173 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: of public health damages that arise from this, and then 174 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,359 Speaker 2: globally this tremendous amount of subsidies that are going into it. Globally, 175 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: we spend nine trillion dollars on fossil fuels every year 176 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 2: and about seven trillion dollars in additional funding. Now, if 177 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 2: we took that money and applied it to the green transition, 178 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: we could have a spectacular and very rapid, clean transition 179 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: that would protect the climate and protect public health because 180 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: as a result of this fossil fuel burning, probably eleven 181 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: million people die every year as a result of the 182 00:13:55,520 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: air pollution that is ninety percent caused by fole ful 183 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 2: fuel combustion. So we would improve public health, we would 184 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: save twelve million lives plus hundreds of millions of illnesses, 185 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: and we would avoid the catastrophe that's coming as we 186 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 2: continue to heat the planet. We're at roughly one point 187 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: four or one point five degrees centigrade of heating so far, 188 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: but we're on this trajectory that is going to carry 189 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 2: us to two and three degrees centigrade. Imagine doubling the 190 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: amount of climate destabilization that we've already had, and the 191 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: impacts that that will have on the oceans and on 192 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: drought and on hurricanes and floods and all this. It's 193 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: basically intolerable that we should be doing this to ourselves 194 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: and not to mention the planet and other species, because 195 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: other species are dying at the rate at one an hour, 196 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: and we are losing the abundance of species. We've lost 197 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: seventy percent of the abundance of vertebrate species since nineteen 198 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: seventy and that's birds and mammals and anything else with 199 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: a backbone. Meanwhile, we're damaging and acidifying the ocean because 200 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: these toxic gases in the atmosphere react with the ocean 201 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: water and make it more acidic. So as we're warming 202 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: the ocean, it begins to expand, and we're melting the 203 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: polar ice, which is adding fresh water to the ocean. 204 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: It's destabilizing ocean circulation and currents, and could have dramatic 205 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 2: and catastrophic impacts on the climate of Europe. For example, 206 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: if we divert the Gulf Stream, which carries warm water 207 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: to northern Europe. So the kinds of changes that we're 208 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: talking about are existential changes that will produce hundreds of 209 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: millions of climate refugees, which will be destabilizing to civilization 210 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: as we know it. You can see what ten million 211 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: refugees has done to Western Europe. Imagine two hundred million refugees. 212 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: And we're already seeing refugees on our border, desperate to 213 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: come someplace where they can be safe not only from 214 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: dictatorship and from crime, but also many of these refugees 215 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: were basically small farmers that are unable to farm because 216 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: of the drought that's hit Central America. So on many 217 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 2: many fronts, in many ways, we need to deal with 218 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: this crisis because it's going to deal with us if 219 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: we don't. And I think you alluded to the fact 220 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: that there is an ecological dimension to this, there's a 221 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: technological dimension, and that there's a political dimension. And we 222 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: have the technology that we need, and we have the 223 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: money that we need. We're a very wealthy country. And 224 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: if it's just a few percent of our GDP that 225 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: and we divert some of this money that we're throwing 226 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: at the fossil fuel industry and setting on fire because 227 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: fuel has to be replenished every year. We're burning money 228 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: to support the fossil fuel industry, giving them subsidies, and 229 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: undermining our own economy as a result of that. This 230 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 2: is not beneficial to us. 231 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: It's not a long term strategy. I mean, everything that 232 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: you have laid out it spells existential threat and crises 233 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: because and I guess my other question for you is, 234 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: I would assume, and let's talk about the political dimension, 235 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: the policy dimension that you brought up, that people have 236 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: this information, people in power know what we're being faced with, 237 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering, how do we convince these folks that 238 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: are in bed with the fossil fuel industry that they're 239 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: betting against themselves. 240 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 2: It's a challenging question. The climate and environmental movement in 241 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 2: this country tends to be somewhat islanded or fragmented, and 242 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 2: my own personal belief is that this movement does not 243 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 2: speak really simply and really clearly with one voice to 244 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: the American public. So I am trying actually to see 245 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: if I can't get together enough support to put on 246 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: a national Climate roadblock Removal conference that would bring together 247 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: political leaders, with leaders in clean climate technology, and also 248 00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 2: representatives of groups that are engaged now in trying to 249 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: protect the climate, but are doing so in a way 250 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: that's not really well coordinated. Because we have groups that 251 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: are protecting a park, or groups that are protecting a 252 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: particular species, or groups that are interested in conserving land, 253 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: and all of these groups have common interests, but they 254 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: also have different funders and they have different agendas, and 255 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 2: we need to get everybody together really to have a 256 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 2: coherent platform that can then be taken to the American 257 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: people and made clear that we have everything to gain 258 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: and little to lose, because the fossil fuel industry is 259 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: really a relatively small sliver of our economy, whereas the 260 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 2: clean energy economy offers millions of new, good paying jobs, 261 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: and it offers a clean environment. So I think, in 262 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: conjunction with getting a conference together, I would like to 263 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 2: see a democratic administration take over in Washington that believes 264 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: in the reality of climate change and that is committed 265 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: to making it a very high national priority. I think 266 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: personally this is the highest priority. It's the highest priority 267 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: from all kinds of perspectives and including the perspectives of 268 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 2: environmental and economic justice, because, as you pointed out, the 269 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 2: impacts of climate change that are created more by the 270 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: rich countries than the poor countries are disproportionate at least 271 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: felt by the lower income countries. And we're also seeing 272 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: that within the United States that lower income communities have 273 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 2: hotter temperatures, they don't have as many parks, they don't 274 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: have as many trees, the buildings aren't as well insulated. 275 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: They may be near petrochemical facilities that are processing fossil fuels, 276 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: so they're suffering from our commitment to the fossil fuel economy. 277 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: We need a federal government that is deeply committed to this, 278 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 2: but it has to be a multi layered approach, not 279 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 2: just the federal government, but state government, local government, regional government, 280 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: municipal government, and it has to be an all of 281 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: society effort. We need a national mobilization to address climate change. 282 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 2: We should have the White House first thing when they 283 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 2: take over, issue a National Climate Emergency Declaration to bring 284 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 2: this issue to the fore so the public will understand it. 285 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: And then we should couple that with a National Climate 286 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 2: Prosperity Plan, which should be produced by the national laboratories 287 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 2: and the best science and engineering, technology and knowledge that 288 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: we have, so that we can map out the scenario 289 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: or the optimal path to a clean energy transition that 290 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: is least cost and that is quickest and most effective 291 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: and most efficient. And then we ought to have the 292 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: president issue a national Climate report to the nation every year. 293 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: Just as we have State of the Union address, we 294 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: should have this state of a Climate address. Wow. 295 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: That yeah, that's a great idea. 296 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: And I think that we should couple this with a 297 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: national atlas of climate risks so that people who may 298 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: think that the climate is somebody else's problem will be 299 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: able to look at this atlas and see that, oh, 300 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 2: my area is like either hit by floods already or 301 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: likely to be flooded again within the next few years, 302 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: and my property along the coast is going to lose 303 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 2: its value when sea level rises by two feet or 304 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 2: whatever within whatever timeframe. This will help people visualize the 305 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: impacts of climate change and the climate disruption within our 306 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 2: own borders, so we'll realize this is not somebody else's problem. 307 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: This is everybody's problem, and if we treat it that way, 308 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 2: it could have a very beneficial effect in bringing people together, 309 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: even people who think that they have disparate interests. We 310 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: all have a very common interest in a healthy climate. 311 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 2: Climate does not ask you what is your political affiliation 312 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 2: before the flood floods your basement or the hurricane rips 313 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: off your roof. We have to get together as a nation, 314 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 2: and for political purposes, the fossil fuel industry and its 315 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 2: allies in the Republican Party largely have tried to muddy 316 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 2: the waters that obscure the true issues here, so that 317 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: people have not clearly seen what is the cause of 318 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: what's going on and what has to happen. And that's 319 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: why public education is very important in dealing with this crisis. 320 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: Along with all of the other specific roadmaps kind of 321 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: ideas that I lay this out in Solving the Climate 322 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 2: Crisis Frontline reports. I have fifteen pages of specific policy 323 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: proposals which if we implemented, these proposals would really get 324 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 2: us on the path to solving the climate crisis. It 325 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: includes things like we stop all fossil fuel subsidies, we 326 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 2: impose a moratorium on new fossil fuel development, we have 327 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 2: the Climate Emergency Declaration that I mentioned, and we create 328 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: a very well funded National Clean Energy Bank and the 329 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 2: issue new clean energy Treasury bonds, and we make the 330 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 2: capital available. These are not expenses that are going to 331 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: drain our economy. These are very very profitable investments. They're 332 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 2: a lot more profitable than putting your money into the 333 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: stock market. They will pay off three, four or five 334 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: times what you invest as a nation in this type 335 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: of endeavor. 336 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think to the points that you have 337 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: laid out that we need to change the conversation and 338 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: make it be one that does really get to people's 339 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: pocketbooks and the way in which we're already paying for 340 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: the climate crisis. When we're looking at our utility bills 341 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: when we're looking at where to move and where to live. 342 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: And it was just a year or so ago when 343 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: the big insurers in Florida and California said, we're not 344 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: ensuring your homes anymore, right, and we're going to see 345 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: more and more of those things happen. We'll leave it 346 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: here today, doctor John Berger. But I so appreciate you 347 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: make in the time to join WOKF. This is incredibly insightful, my. 348 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: Pleasure to talk with you. If people want to find 349 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: out more, they could go to my website Johnjayberger dot 350 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 2: com burger with an E, and they could also go 351 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: to Solving the Climate Crisis dot us, where they can 352 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 2: find out how to gets solving the climate crisis and 353 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: also how to learn more about the work that I'm 354 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 2: doing in order to contact me if they want me 355 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: to speak or consult. Thank you so much for having me. 356 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure talking with you, Danielle. 357 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on WOKF. 358 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: As always power to the people and to all the people. Power, 359 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.