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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It is Monday, October thirteenth. We

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Speaker 2: hope you had a beautiful Columbus day. And guess what, everybody,

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Speaker 2: we have a stacked night of headlines. The controversial Ellen

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Speaker 2: Greenberg's new findings from her autopsy are officially in and

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Speaker 2: it is astounding. Plus, pop star David, who we've been

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Speaker 2: talking much about, has recently transferred two properties to his

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Speaker 2: mother amidst all of these investigations around Celeste Revaz's death. Also,

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Speaker 2: Esteemed arson Profiler is going to be joining us Ed Nordscott.

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Speaker 2: He joins us to really break down all of the

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Speaker 2: forensics and information regarding the Pacific Palisades fire and also

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Speaker 2: what makes a serial arsonist convicted. Granny also was sentenced today,

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Speaker 2: also pretty astounding, and Luigi's defense has filed a motion

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Speaker 2: to drop the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: We talked about this briefly last.

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Speaker 2: Night, but we're going to break it down this evening,

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Speaker 2: and then also the NFL player Mark Sanchez has been

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Speaker 2: released from the hospital and officially charged. So much more

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Speaker 2: on that to come as well. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and

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Speaker 2: I head of KT Studios where we make true crime

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Speaker 2: podcasts and documentaries, and I get to be here every

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Speaker 2: night with my mates Courtney Armstrong and Body Move In.

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Speaker 2: And because there is so much going on this evening,

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Speaker 2: we have Jarrett Farantino, our very favorite esteemed trial attorney,

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Speaker 2: is back and he's going to break down.

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Speaker 3: Several of these cases.

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Speaker 2: Because we've been getting a lot of talkbacks and those

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Speaker 2: talkbacks need answers, so we're bringing in the big dogs.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back, Jareded. We're so happy you're here.

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Speaker 4: Always a pleasure to be with you on True Crime tonight,

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Speaker 4: looking forward to the questions. And it's never a dull

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Speaker 4: night when I'm here, so I know it's going to be.

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Speaker 5: A busy day.

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Speaker 3: Well, let it rip, Jareded.

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Speaker 2: We're so happy you're here as well, and let's go

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Speaker 2: straight to a talkback.

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Speaker 3: Hey, ladies, stepped me from Ohio.

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Speaker 6: Just wanted to make a quick comment about the lyrics

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Speaker 6: for David and that being tied to the murder.

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Speaker 3: What would you guys think about it? Being an obsessed fan.

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Speaker 6: Who took his lyrics too far, and maybe that's why

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Speaker 6: it's so hard to be able to us all.

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Speaker 3: I would throw that out there, possibility. Can't wait to

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Speaker 3: hear what you girls think. Love you, bye, well, Hi

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Speaker 3: the doodle do?

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Speaker 2: First of all, are you in a farm, Stephanie? That

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Speaker 2: was so interesting with the little cockadoodle do in the background.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing. That came to my mind.

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Speaker 2: She has such a beautiful voice and has this little

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Speaker 2: you know, partner in crime.

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Speaker 3: I would love it. That's amazing. But no, I think

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Speaker 3: that's that's something I hadn't thought of that.

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Speaker 7: You know that somebody may be obsessed with the pop

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Speaker 7: star David right. I mean, he's a kind of a

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Speaker 7: famous guy, young, attractive. Maybe he has, you know, an

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Speaker 7: obsessed stalker of some kind.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, anything's possible. What do you

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Speaker 3: guys think.

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Speaker 2: It seems to me like there would be something in

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Speaker 2: the news or something in terms of him being a

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Speaker 2: person of interest or a suspect, none of which appears

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Speaker 2: to be the case at the moment. We know his

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Speaker 2: world tour has been canceled. The financial obligations surrounding that

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Speaker 2: must be unsurmountable. Frankly, that's a big deal to cut

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Speaker 2: something like that show. You can only imagine. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: can you imagine if it has nothing to do with him,

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Speaker 2: what a disaster financially speaking, Courtney, you were going to

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Speaker 2: jump in?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 8: Just I think your guess as honest, as good as any.

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Speaker 8: In this moment, we have so little actual information in

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Speaker 8: terms of you know, again, no suspects, et cetera, no

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Speaker 8: cause of death, even that has still been delayed. So right,

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Speaker 8: I think it's possible. I think it would be odd,

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Speaker 8: but I think anything is possible in this case.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it's pretty astounding so far that we haven't

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Speaker 7: heard anything.

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Speaker 3: I mean anything. The tox is going to be the

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Speaker 3: key in this.

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Speaker 2: Case, I wonder, And I'm just soft launching this theory.

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Speaker 2: It is based solely on nothing except for kind of

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Speaker 2: in my head. But I was thinking about this kind

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Speaker 2: of aggressively yesterday. Is it possible that maybe David the

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Speaker 2: pop star had this lovely home in the hills and

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Speaker 2: other locations, et cetera, had his tesla, maybe Celesterevas was

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Speaker 2: staying with him, and then he went off to tour,

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Speaker 2: and maybe some of his buddies or associates were staying

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Speaker 2: in his house had access to his car, something went amiss.

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Speaker 2: Suddenly they decide to panic and you know her tragically,

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Speaker 2: her body ends up in the trunk, which is unimaginable.

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Speaker 2: But again, I think if there was something really specific

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Speaker 2: around David himself, we would know about that by now.

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Speaker 7: They would have made an arrest. Yeah, I think you're right.

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Speaker 7: I think it might be something like that. And I

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Speaker 7: kind of wonder when you look at the photos of

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Speaker 7: the car, it seems like it's damaged, and I kind

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Speaker 7: of wonder if maybe that might be related.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know. I guess we're But speaking of

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Speaker 3: David's homes, you.

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Speaker 7: Know, you'd mentioned these beautiful home in the Hollywood Hills,

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Speaker 7: while he has transferred ownership of his two Texas properties

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Speaker 7: to his mother as police continue investigating the discovery again.

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Speaker 7: She was fourteen years old, Celeste Revas Hernandez. Her body

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Speaker 7: was found in the front of his Tesla while he

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Speaker 7: was on tour. The tour has you know, has since

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Speaker 7: halted and they're investigating this.

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Speaker 3: This happened in.

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Speaker 7: September September fifth or eighth, eight September eighth, So it's

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Speaker 7: been two months and restuchonizing. Well, there's it two months

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Speaker 7: or one month, one month. I don't know what month

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Speaker 7: I'm in right now.

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Speaker 3: It's been a month. We haven't heard anything. Yeah, Jared,

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Speaker 3: do you have any take on that?

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Speaker 2: Why would somebody actually transfer their properties to maybe mom's name.

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Speaker 2: To me, that just signals, hey, look this civil mounting

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Speaker 2: against me. Yes, there could potentially be civil liability in

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Speaker 2: some way. Whatever assets he has, he likely wants to

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Speaker 2: have tied to a trust and maybe under his mom's name,

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Speaker 2: so that I can't be seized, I would assume.

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Speaker 4: So that's what it looks like is going on here.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we're looking at this because we know that

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Speaker 4: Celeste appears to have been the victim of a criminal act,

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Speaker 4: but David appears to be fortifying himself for what will

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Speaker 4: likely be a civil claim in transferring his properties. And

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Speaker 4: why would you do that because you want to insulate

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Speaker 4: them from civil judgment and being taken. And remember the

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Speaker 4: civil standard is lower than the criminal standard. So even

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Speaker 4: if it was a friend of David or associates of

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Speaker 4: David that somehow killed selects she a minor in his company,

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Speaker 4: in his orbit gets killed, he's the deep pocket. So

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Speaker 4: a civil lawyer, even if that was the scenario, will

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Speaker 4: come after him and potentially his assets. So that's what

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Speaker 4: he could be doing, which could be problematic though, Oh really,

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Speaker 4: transfers could be viewed under Texas law as fraudulent transfers

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Speaker 4: because they were to his mother. So let's assume for

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Speaker 4: a moment Mom didn't pay full price for the houses.

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Speaker 4: You would she would be looked at as an insider

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Speaker 4: for David. She transfers those properties to insulate them from judgment.

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Speaker 4: That entire transfer could be undone under Texas's fraudulent concealment law.

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Speaker 3: Fraudulent concealment.

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Speaker 8: Interesting, and Jared, is that fraudulent concealment only because we're

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Speaker 8: talking about a potential civil case, or would that be

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Speaker 8: fraudulent concealment like if I decided to give my house

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Speaker 8: to my mother and she didn't what pay taxes?

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Speaker 4: Well, is fraudulent because he knows he would be the

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Speaker 4: debtor in this law? Okay, in the civil realm, he

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Speaker 4: knows a claim has arisen around this time. He knows

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Speaker 4: that celect family, maybe a lawyer already send him a letter.

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Speaker 4: He certainly knows a body has been found in the

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Speaker 4: trunk of one of his vehicles, So the argument would.

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Speaker 9: Be he's a debtor.

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Speaker 4: He dumped this property to protect it from collection, and

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Speaker 4: that would be the argument. If you did a familial

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Speaker 4: transaction with your mom or oftentimes elderly transfer, that too

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Speaker 4: could be looked at as a fraudulent transfer or to

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Speaker 4: protect from nursing homes and things of that nature. So

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Speaker 4: there's a timeframe often in states where they do look

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Speaker 4: backs from those. It's not necessarily fraud, but they clawback

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Speaker 4: transactions if a nursing home has a judgment or something

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Speaker 4: like that. So similar in that you're making these transfers

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Speaker 4: to avoid some financial obligation.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting. So obviously he's got a good lawyer that's

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Speaker 3: advising him, Like you might need to transfer some of

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Speaker 3: your assets, I would imagine, is this often successful, this

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Speaker 3: kind of transfership.

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Speaker 4: Well, look, I mean a good lawyer planned for these

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Speaker 4: kinds of things upstream. I've read that the property was

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Speaker 4: held in a trust actually controlled by David. In the end,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't matter because it was his property that was

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Speaker 4: deeded over to his mother. I as a former prosecutor,

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Speaker 4: would look at this and say, this is consciousness of guilt.

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Speaker 4: He's throwing off the sandbag, trying to get away from

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Speaker 4: anything that could be injured when they come after him

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Speaker 4: for celests, because he knows he's responsible. So if a

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Speaker 4: lawyer could be staying on one end, you're protecting assets,

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Speaker 4: but a prosecutor could be saying, you're luck can yourself

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Speaker 4: in here?

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Speaker 7: So this is kind of maybe a dumb question, and

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Speaker 7: please forgive me, but could this affect charges? Could this

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Speaker 7: be seen as guilt like you had just mentioned. Could

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Speaker 7: this be seen as like, you know, I'm somehow admitting

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Speaker 7: guilt and I'm hiding my assets in preparation.

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Speaker 4: Well, I would make an argument it's consciousness of guilt.

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Speaker 4: It's an act of a guilty person insulating himself from judgment, restitution,

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Speaker 4: things of that nature. Right, And the counter argument could be, hey,

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Speaker 4: you'd have to be a fool to not know people

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Speaker 4: are coming for David over this body. Whether or not

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Speaker 4: he's the slayer is another question, but I would use

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Speaker 4: it again. I would say that's a pretty profound act.

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Speaker 4: You're taking a property you own to property in another

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Speaker 4: state and transferring them. Did he did the same thing

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Speaker 4: he was starting to do this when he was anticipating

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Speaker 4: charges and ultimately.

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Speaker 3: Charged complicated business.

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Speaker 8: Well listen, thankfully, Jarrett Farentino is here to make the

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Speaker 8: complicated comprehensible for us all clearing up all legal questions

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Speaker 8: for true crime. Tonight, I'm Courtney here with Stephanie and Body,

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Speaker 8: and we were just discussing the case with David and

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Speaker 8: Celeste Riva Hernandez, and now I wanted to bring up

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Speaker 8: Donna Adelson. So granny has been convicted. Now Donna Adelson

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Speaker 8: has been sentenced to life in prison for her role

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Speaker 8: in the murder for higher plot. She plotted this to

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Speaker 8: kill her son in law. He was a professor, Dan Markel,

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Speaker 8: a lovely guy by all means. This all had to

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Speaker 8: do with custody of her grandkids. So she has now

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Speaker 8: been sentenced to life. It was a nasty business. And

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Speaker 8: even when during sentencing she was making a scene in

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Speaker 8: the court and the judge had to tell her to

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Speaker 8: be quiet multiple times. So she seems like a real

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Speaker 8: piece of work. But I had a legal question. The

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Speaker 8: prosecutors are looking over seven hundred thousand dollars in restitution

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Speaker 8: for the trial costs. The defense right now is asking

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Speaker 8: for documentation. I thought that if the state brings any case,

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Speaker 8: I don't know. I didn't know that the state could

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Speaker 8: ask for restitution.

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Speaker 4: Generally, the state can ask for restitution. I've done it

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Speaker 4: a thousand times. Okay, here's what's allowable restitution for the state.

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Speaker 4: Certain costs associated with the claim, expert fees, testing, the

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Speaker 4: payment of funeral expenses for a victim, for example, medical

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Speaker 4: expenses for a victim. These are the kind of things

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Speaker 4: you typically see. You very rarely see a price tag

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Speaker 4: that high for restitution. Now, this was several prosecutions. The

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Speaker 4: prosecution appears to be taken in position that Donna Adelson's

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Speaker 4: actions kicked this whole thing, kicked this whole hornet's nest

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Speaker 4: into action here and in soliciting the assistance of her son,

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Speaker 4: all of these prosecutions, all of this overtime pay, all

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Speaker 4: of this work, all of this testing, is attributable to

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Speaker 4: her criminal conspiracy and conduct. Therefore, she has to flip

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Speaker 4: the bill here. That's what's being pursued against Donna Addelson.

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Speaker 4: And remember, ninety nine percent of criminal defendants are indigent.

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Speaker 4: The Adelsons have very deep pockets, so the prosecution's probably saying, hey,

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Speaker 4: we have an opportunity to actually collect our money.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 8: Wow interesting right, and also with Donna Markel, So excuse me,

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Speaker 8: Donna Addelson. She's convicted. What are the prospects of her appeal?

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Speaker 8: What arguments could her team possibly pursue?

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Speaker 4: Well, a couple of things. I think there were some

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Speaker 4: jury issues that they could pursue. I think there was

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Speaker 4: a post on TikTok. I don't think that's going anywhere.

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Speaker 4: I think the judge on rung that bell ineffective assistance

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Speaker 4: to counsel for not calling her son to the stand,

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Speaker 4: I think may be an issue.

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Speaker 3: And wearing that cretle suit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so that could be it too, But I don't

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Speaker 4: see any issues jumping off the page. I think her

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Speaker 4: days as her opportunity for appeal is extremely limited.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, my daughter hasn't been arrested yet, No,

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Speaker 2: I lay, I check every day. Yeah, granny was basically

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Speaker 2: in her messy mind, was looking out for her grandchildren

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Speaker 2: and her son. So the brother of the mom also

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Speaker 2: behind bars, but mom is still out.

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Speaker 3: So do we think that charges are I do for her?

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Speaker 7: Do I absolutely think charges are coming for Wendy. I

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Speaker 7: check every every morning. I do my check. There's a

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Speaker 7: Twitter account called was Wendy arrested Today? I check it

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Speaker 7: every single day, and every day it tweets, no tweets.

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Speaker 3: What that's part of your morning routine. It is part

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Speaker 3: of my morning cup of tea. I do my medicube

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Speaker 3: wond and I amazing.

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Speaker 8: Well listen, stick around because after the break Jarrett Farentino

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Speaker 8: will stay with us to help clear up legal questions.

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Speaker 8: We have the latest with Luigi Mangione and at the

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Speaker 8: second hour we have an arson expert coming to clarify

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Speaker 8: all sorts of things Palisades fire and otherwise.

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Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as

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Speaker 2: always with Courtney Armstrong and Body move in, and we

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Speaker 2: have our esteemed trial attorney, Jarrett Farentino is back with

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Speaker 2: us this evening.

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Speaker 3: Listen. He's tried all of the scariest cases, murder cases

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Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania. He is in the beehive.

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Speaker 2: He has all of the answers because frankly, we need

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Speaker 2: some Mark Sanchez, for example, the NFL star who is

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Speaker 2: really in some big trouble in Indianapolis. He was released

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Speaker 2: from the hospital and already booked and is already out,

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Speaker 2: and we're so curious to know what's next.

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Speaker 3: So before we go any further, let's go to a talkback.

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Speaker 6: Touching base on the Mark Sanchez situation. I'm wondering if

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Speaker 6: the reason why they're suing Fox is because he.

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Speaker 3: Might have been on travel.

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Speaker 6: During work hours or during work time to go out

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Speaker 6: there to do his announcement for the Sunday Night football

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Speaker 6: So maybe he was being paid like per dim or

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Speaker 6: something to travel out there.

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Speaker 3: On some deep pockets.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that was smart talkback, right, She's thinking like why

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Speaker 7: is he know? And she's got the answers. I think

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Speaker 7: I think so too, and we forget even before Sorry

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Speaker 7: to cut you up, but before we go further, just

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Speaker 7: as a reminder, talk back Tuesday tomorrow, so we want

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Speaker 7: to make sure we have those talkbacks come in. We

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Speaker 7: love the dms, but we really love to hear your voice,

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Speaker 7: So keep the talkbacks come in and yeah, Mark Sanchez, Jared,

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Speaker 7: I'm sure you'll weigh in on this for us.

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Speaker 3: Rite a mess. Huh.

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Speaker 2: This is a really bad scenario for him. It is

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Speaker 2: not looking great.

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Speaker 4: He's got a lot of problems. This is the kind

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Speaker 4: of case I look at, I say to myself, it's

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Speaker 4: got to work out. I don't know where you begin

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Speaker 4: to defend him in this. Only thing I can think

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Speaker 4: of is if somebody slipped something into his drink right

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Speaker 4: and caused him to act as erratically as he was acting.

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Speaker 4: There's video of him doing sprints up and down that

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Speaker 4: alley right twelve thirty at night. Certainly not the kind

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Speaker 4: of behavior typical of somebody alone in an alley that

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Speaker 4: late or that early in the morning.

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Speaker 3: So you haven't hung out with the armstad. She's got

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Speaker 3: a waited best on as well.

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Speaker 4: I might add I should, But you know, I look

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Speaker 4: at this and I think that this is just so.

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Speaker 4: It's bizarre behavior, and it's behavior that's caught on video.

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Speaker 4: There's independent witnesses that are corroborating the victims version of event.

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Speaker 4: Sanchez was made. Then he had to be subdued with

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Speaker 4: a knife, somehow still managed to injure the driver. It's

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Speaker 4: just it's wild, right, So for.

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Speaker 7: Those who don't know, so for those who don't know.

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Speaker 7: On October fourth, a dispute over parking outside a hotel

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Speaker 7: bar escalated between Mark Sanchez, who were talking about and

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Speaker 7: you know, the victim in this case, he was sixty

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Speaker 7: nine year old truck driver named Perry Tole and according

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Speaker 7: to the court filings and the police records, Mark Sanchez

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Speaker 7: allegedly climbed into his truck while he was doing these

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Speaker 7: sprints in this alleyway and blocked him from calling for

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Speaker 7: help and told the victim pepper sprayed Mark Sanchez and

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Speaker 7: then claiming that Mark Sanchez was like still kind of

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Speaker 7: coming at him and he felt threat and so ultimately

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Speaker 7: started stabbing Mark Sanchez. And while you know, Sanchez sustained

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Speaker 7: stab wound to his like upper terso and he was hospitalized.

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Speaker 7: And while he was hospitalized, he was arrested by the

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Speaker 7: Indiana Indianapolis Metro Police. He went to jail yesterday and

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Speaker 7: he's already out.

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Speaker 3: So he's out.

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Speaker 7: And by the way, the victim in this case is

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Speaker 7: suing Mark Sanchez. They filed a civil lawsuit against him

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Speaker 7: and Fox Corporation alleging severe permanent disfiguration, loss of function,

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Speaker 7: and emotional distress. And that was what the talkback was about,

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Speaker 7: because we were wondering, why is Fox being sued? How

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Speaker 7: did they get roped into this well Mark Sanchez was

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Speaker 7: apparently on this PR event for the Super Bowl?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: What is that?

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Speaker 3: What am I reading that?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: He was on some kind of PR.

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Speaker 7: Event for the Super Bowl and therefore being paid by

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Speaker 7: his employer, which is Fox new or Fox Sports, and

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Speaker 7: that's why Fox is being in lawsuit.

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Speaker 3: We think, we think very interesting. Is that, right, Jared?

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Speaker 3: Does that track with why Fox? I mean?

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Speaker 8: Or is it just the deepest pockets? Is it a

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Speaker 8: reach or is it a reasonable suit?

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Speaker 4: It may be a reach. I think that it's a

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Speaker 4: reasonable reach at this point because you're at an early stage.

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Speaker 4: You have to really it's nuanced, so you have to

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Speaker 4: know what was Sanchez doing in the moments before? Was

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Speaker 4: he truly in the scope of his employment? Or here's

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Speaker 4: the other theory. Have there been issues like this in

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Speaker 4: the past when he's on a junket for fun and

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Speaker 4: they have not addressed it appropriately? So their argument would

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Speaker 4: be there's a negligent hiring or maintaining Sanchez as an

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Speaker 4: employee with that knowledge creates an issue for Fox. It's

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Speaker 4: a little premature to say that yet, but that's what

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Speaker 4: the discovery process will meet out.

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Speaker 7: So if he's off, let's say he's off of work,

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Speaker 7: but he's still on per dm Like they give him

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Speaker 7: some much money per day for food and drink and

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Speaker 7: he got drunk. I'm not saying oh that, I don't know,

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Speaker 7: I'm assuming and he gets drunk on this per diem.

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Speaker 7: Could Fox be held civily liable for this?

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Speaker 9: Well, again, typically a company wouldn't.

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Speaker 4: Be held liable for an off duty voluntary intoxication of

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Speaker 4: an employee. I mean, you just couldn't.

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Speaker 3: Ensure you even if they're paying for it.

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Speaker 4: Right. We all know that guy or that gal who's

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Speaker 4: who goes away on a company trip and they asked

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Speaker 4: themselves in a jam, but the reality is they're no

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Speaker 4: longer under the umbrella or protection of the company. When

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Speaker 4: you're out on your own or commit a criminal act.

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Speaker 4: That's a stretch. But if Fox, if it's shown he

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Speaker 4: has a propensity for this kind of conduct and Fox

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Speaker 4: knew about it and didn't adjust or kept him on board,

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Speaker 4: they could have a liability there.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty wild.

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Speaker 2: This is one of those cases where had he just

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Speaker 2: gone to bed that night, perhaps you know, you see.

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Speaker 3: These images of the victim and it's astounding.

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Speaker 2: This is a you know, it's said many times a

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Speaker 2: sixty nine year old man, not the biggest man in

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Speaker 2: the world. Imagine Mark Sanchez coming at you full throttle.

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Speaker 3: He is so big.

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Speaker 2: He's an NFL, former NFL star, He's massive. He's been

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Speaker 2: sprinting in the in the alley way, so he's probably

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Speaker 2: like all heated up and frenzied and intense.

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Speaker 3: That must have been so so scary, and drinks and

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Speaker 3: goes running down alley like not me, just out of

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Speaker 3: his mind. Or is it possible that maybe he was roofied.

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Speaker 2: I'd be curious if there was a toxicology report done

403
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Speaker 2: for him and maybe there was something, you know, lost

404
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Speaker 2: in the sauce in his cocktail, if you will, If

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Speaker 2: I'm him, I would.

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Speaker 3: Hope that's the case, because.

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Speaker 2: Boy, you wake up a from a bad night of drinking,

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Speaker 2: and boy, is there a lot to pay for it.

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Speaker 7: I saw photos of the victim and like he had

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Speaker 7: a gash in his face.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and it's really brutal. So did Here's the thing.

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Speaker 7: I'm not really one hundred percent up to speed on

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Speaker 7: this one. Did Mark sanch just grab the knife from

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Speaker 7: him and start stabbing the victim?

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Speaker 3: Because there's some sort of a struggle, there's a huge.

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Speaker 3: Oh maybe in the struggle it happened.

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Speaker 2: And that's why he's, you know, claiming he's deformed. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean it's a permanent scarsh that he has and

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Speaker 2: his face is horrifying. Like I can only imagine the

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Speaker 2: middle of the night, some guy comes lunging in your

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Speaker 2: vehicle and is massive. What else are you supposed to

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Speaker 2: do other than stab him? Thank goodness, he had some

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Speaker 2: way of protecting himself. But this is just I'm a

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Speaker 2: night gone real bad.

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Speaker 3: Do you have mece? I do have mace? Courtney? Do

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Speaker 3: you have mace? I do not have mace?

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Speaker 7: Okay, well, I think maybe we should get some mace

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Speaker 7: because this guy had mece and it might have saved

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Speaker 7: his life.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Spread some pepper. Spread, that's true.

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Speaker 7: That's true, Jared, Why are you gotta harsh my buzz

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Speaker 7: I was all excited about getting some mace.

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Speaker 2: No, And I got it on a key chain and

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Speaker 2: I gave it out as like a.

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Speaker 3: Smart girl, little thing to have around.

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Speaker 2: And when I went to show how to use it,

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Speaker 2: I sprayed toward myself.

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Speaker 3: Stop.

439
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: So the downs to pepper spray or mace is that

440
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: it could go. It also could go a little bit

441
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 2: sideways if you're at and it looks like me.

442
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 4: The fact that it didn't work on Sanchez may suggests

443
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 4: he was under the influence of something else. And again,

444
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 4: I'm not an expert in that field, but I've seen

445
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 4: mace have little or no effect on somebody who's under

446
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 4: the influence of very very serious and toxic.

447
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 3: This is true Crime tonight and I Heart Radio.

448
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 7: I'm body moving here with Courtney I'm Strong, and Stephanielei

449
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 7: Decker and we are joined by Jarrett Farantino. He is

450
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 7: a season trial attorney out of Pennsylvania, and we're talking

451
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 7: about Mark Sanchez and we want to hear from you.

452
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 7: Give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or

453
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 7: hit us up on the talkbacks on the iHeart Radio app.

454
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 7: Have you ever maced yourself? I want to know, give

455
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 7: us a call.

456
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: I mean, that's hurt yet hurt.

457
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: It hurt real bad, and it was wet and messy

458
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: and then it's on your hand. Everything about it was

459
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 2: a foul ball. I also should have read the instructions

460
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: and I recommend it. I recommend it, but with better

461
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: care than me. I got taste once it was on

462
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 2: purpose best ones. Yeah, it was on purpose. It was

463
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: a friend of mine, but yeah, it was that really.

464
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 3: Hurt friends like that kind of goodness. We were stupid

465
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: and we were playing all stupid. Don't do it hurts.

466
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 3: Don't battle with body.

467
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 8: But listen while we have you, Jared, I am dying

468
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 8: to get some questions answered. All of us are about

469
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 8: Luigi man Geone. Ah, yes, so a lot has happened.

470
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 8: Luigi man Gione Manngioni his lawyers are seeking to dismiss

471
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 8: really pivotal charges, including the only death penalty eligible count.

472
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 8: They're also seeking to suppress critical evidence. They are arguing

473
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 8: that the procedural via elations by law enforcement may mitigate everything.

474
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 8: If you don't recall Luigi Manngione. He's accused of fatally

475
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 8: shooting United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. This was back in

476
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 8: December of twenty twenty four, broad daylight, early morning, Manhattan,

477
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 8: right outside of Manhattan Hotel. And the defense again is

478
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 8: seeking to dismiss a bunch of the charges, including the

479
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 8: federal firearm charge. And also they argue that the interstate stalking,

480
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 8: the predicate defense for the federal firearm charge, doesn't qualify

481
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 8: as a crime of violence.

482
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 3: And therefore can't support it.

483
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 8: What do you make There's also more, But Jared, what's

484
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 8: your what's your top line on what's going on here?

485
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 9: Well?

486
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 4: These are complient. Let me just say that this is

487
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 4: why you paid me the big bucks. Right, Yeah, maybe

488
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 4: complicated the two big issues you got to knock. They're

489
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 4: trying to knock the death penalty out right. And one

490
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,239
Speaker 4: of the aggravators in support of death here is the

491
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 4: allegation is Mangione committed multiple crimes of violence. Obviously, the

492
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 4: shooting was a crime of violence. One of the chargers

493
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 4: was terrorism that got kicked, that was a crime of violence.

494
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 4: They said, the only remaining other crime of violence is stalking.

495
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 4: And Mangioni's team is saying, you can't say you have

496
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: multiple crimes of violence because stalking is not inherently violent.

497
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 4: So that is a legal challenge to the aggravators in

498
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 4: support of death. Very very strong argument the prosecution, I

499
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 4: would hope before they listed stocking as a crime of

500
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 4: violence know the answer to that question. Now, My position

501
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 4: would be this stalking in this instance led to violence.

502
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 4: Therefore it is a violent app He stocked him to

503
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 4: murder him. What could be more violent than that, so

504
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 4: that would be my position. The next issue is, which

505
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 4: is a pretty big big issue, is whether or not

506
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 4: the police had probable cause without a warrant to get

507
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 4: into his backpack and altuna when they found them in

508
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 4: McDonald That's another big issue, and they're saying the defense

509
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 4: is saying, you should have gotten the warrant after the

510
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 4: bag was secured from Mangione. You didn't do that. Failing

511
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 4: to do that is the search of the container and

512
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 4: the contents of that bag, which included the murder weapon

513
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 4: and his notebook, should be suppressed. That's a big, big issue.

514
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: That's a huge issue, and I understand the technicality of it,

515
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: but boy, does this get under my skin because in

516
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: that said backpack is the murder weapon and his manifesto,

517
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: which of course is tying him to this case. There's

518
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: footage allegedly of him on the sidewalk murdering somebody. I

519
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: wonder if, given the climate post the Charlie Kirk assassination

520
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: and Tyler Robinson's arrest, a huge moment that was in

521
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: the world, has Luigi taken a back seat in terms

522
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: of the spotlight and now people are feeling a little

523
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: easier on him because I get a little stuck. I mean,

524
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: he assassinated somebody in cold blood in New York City

525
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: and broad daylight. That's a living, breathing human. How does

526
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: that not count as much as another?

527
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 7: I think I think they would give it a lot

528
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 7: of you know this, I think that a lot of

529
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 7: people are thinking Luigi's the inspiration for like these kind

530
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 7: of these kinds of assassinations because of the writing on

531
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 7: the bullets originate right.

532
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: Which Tyler Robinson may have been a copycat for right.

533
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: And by the way, why are we not hearing more

534
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 2: about Tyler Robinson? Well, he is court on the thirtieth,

535
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: we here on the thirtieth. But still I feel like,

536
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: again it was front page, front page, front page, and

537
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: now there's zero page about it, which you know, either

538
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: is just a reflection, is that there's a crime right

539
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: behind it. But boy, a lot has changed, even just

540
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: in the last year or less than a year since

541
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: it changes to admitted this crime, it.

542
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 7: Seems like a lot of time has passed, and I

543
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 7: do think the culture kind of has shifted a little bit, Stephanie,

544
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 7: to your point, But I just don't know that the

545
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 7: OJ I think they're going to try to use full

546
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 7: core press on this, I really do. I want to

547
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 7: thank Jarrett for spending so much time with us tonight. Jarrett,

548
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 7: thank you for joining us. You can find more, can

549
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 7: we can? You can find more of Jarrett's amazing work

550
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 7: as a legal expert on YouTube at Jarrett Farantino and

551
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 7: Instagram at Jarrett Farantino. Jarrett, thank you so much for

552
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 7: joining us, as always, appreciate it. Thank you so much,

553
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 7: man add to everything.

554
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: He's in all of our podcasts, by the way, and

555
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: if you haven't heard in Cells out now, please please

556
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: check it out. It's it's really important stuff. Courtney, your

557
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: extraordinary on it has done such a great job and

558
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: body you as well, of course as always. And then

559
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: also the Idaho massacre three. We're getting a lot of

560
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: it's very controversial right now, so please download on the

561
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app as well. And uh put nama waited vest

562
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: for the next few moments, at least just for this segment.

563
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: I'm not wearing mine tonight. My back hurts and I

564
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: felt you wore it for too long. I did it.

565
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: If I worked with half an hour, forty five minutes,

566
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: I wore forty five minutes. We have to do it

567
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: in fifteen minute increments. You cannot go by body by

568
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: not do what I do because I'm hurting today. NFL

569
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: wear it for way too long, and she's just tough.

570
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 3: She's been working out for a while.

571
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 8: Hold on today I found I went for my very

572
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 8: first chiropractic adjustment.

573
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: Oh, actually, it's unbelievable.

574
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 8: And I mentioned the vest because it's apparently all any

575
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 8: of us can talk about these days. But what he

576
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 8: said was interesting. He said, for however long you wear it.

577
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 8: He's like, people in general wear it too long, So

578
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 8: it may have been, but he's.

579
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: Like, people wear it for hours.

580
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 8: But he said, for however long you wear it, then

581
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 8: keep it off for that amount of time until you

582
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 8: put it back on. Because I said, oh, I'll wear

583
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 8: it often for like fifteen minutes, take it off for five.

584
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: But anyway, that was so you should take it off

585
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: to me segments. That's so that's exactly all of us.

586
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: Anyone listening who's also we're getting a lot of feedback

587
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: about the vests just by the way, we get.

588
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: Such a kick out of it.

589
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: Keep the dms and talkbacks coming regarding the vests.

590
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 3: We have big ideas going on here.

591
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: So we got to like, we are not experts, but

592
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: I'm the weakest in the room for sure. But just

593
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: for one segment and then we'll take it off for

594
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: the other and listen, we're going to be We're going

595
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: to be so ripped, it's going to be unimaginable, speaking

596
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: of all things, you know, speaking of ripped, we want

597
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: to make sure we're hearing your ripped talkbacks tomorrow, talk

598
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: back Tuesday, so keep them coming. Any topic, nothing is

599
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: off limits.

600
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: We also just even want to hear a little tale.

601
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: Of happiness if you have one as well, because we

602
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: talk about a lot of tough things, including no exception,

603
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: this Ellen Greenberg case is just unbelievable.

604
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 3: So, Boddy, why don't you kick us off?

605
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, So I have a DM to read And this

606
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 7: comes from listener Tracy, and she said, Racy, I would

607
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 7: love to hear a deep dive with Joseph Scott Morgan

608
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 7: about the documentary Death and Apartment six oh three. Now,

609
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 7: if you aren't familiar, Death and Apartment six o three,

610
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 7: By the way, Tracy, thank you for the DM.

611
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 3: Death and Apartment six.

612
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 7: O three is a new documentary on Hulu and it's

613
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 7: drowned the Ellen Greenberg case which is what we're going

614
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 7: to be talking about. And you know what, I would

615
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 7: love a deep dive with Joe Scott Morgan too. We're

616
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 7: going to be talking about this on our True Crime

617
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 7: and Chill next week, which I believe we're going to

618
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 7: probably be doing Wednesday, so we have a whole week.

619
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 7: You have a whole week in like a couple of days.

620
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 7: And Yeah, I would love to talk to Joseph about

621
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 7: Ellen Greenberg because he's kind of an expert on this case.

622
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 7: You know, he is friends with the family, He's been

623
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 7: following it for years. He you know, is a forensic

624
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 7: death investigator. This is like his wheelhouse and he's very

625
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 7: passionate about this case.

626
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 3: And he's not happy today, Courtney. Can you tell us why?

627
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 8: Well, he's not happy because the Philadelphia Medical examiner has

628
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 8: once again ruled that Aaron Greenberg's twenty eleven death is

629
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 8: a suicide. Her family has been fighting to have it

630
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 8: ruled as a murder, and it has TikTok back and

631
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 8: forth in the Medical Examiner's office. So Ellen Greenberg, she

632
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 8: was found stabbed many multiple times in her Philadelphia apartment,

633
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 8: and this happened again way back in twenty eleven, and

634
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 8: her parents are still fighting for justice for their daughter.

635
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 4: Right.

636
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: The initial ruling was a homicide.

637
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 8: It was pretty quickly changed to a suicide by the

638
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 8: medical examiner. And listen, a lot of people think that

639
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 8: it's bec because Ellen Greenberg, who she was involved with,

640
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 8: that they had close family members that have initients in

641
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 8: high positions. Let's see, and so this is just TikTok

642
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 8: back and forth and again it changed today and it

643
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 8: became this ruling came out just before a court hearing

644
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 8: that scheduled for tomorrow. The review apparently it considered reports

645
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 8: from several experts who were hired by the Greenberg's a family,

646
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 8: including doctor sarrihl Weck, who's.

647
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 3: Very he's very famous but very very.

648
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 8: Famous, and Wayne Ross as well, and the former assistant

649
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 8: medical examiner, doctor Osborne, who initially ruled it a homicide,

650
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 8: now states that he excuse that he no longer believes

651
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 8: it was a suicide.

652
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so how does that even add up?

653
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I listen, this is so badly and well

654
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: timed all at the same time that we're going to

655
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: be doing a deep dive. Because when you watch this

656
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 2: documentary or listen to Joseph who in large part he

657
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace, who he works with often. They've really kept

658
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: this case in the forefront, and it is really hard

659
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: to believe that somebody could possibly do this to themselves.

660
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: It's unfathomable. And the parents must be just annihilated right now.

661
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 2: They've been holding on for so much hope and pushing

662
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: through and selling things and the financial implications to keep

663
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: your daughters memory alive and to fight for justice for her.

664
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 2: You know, we just have to remember that there are

665
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,479
Speaker 2: real people attached to this, And man, is it hard?

666
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 3: Is it okay? If I read something?

667
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 7: So I was, because of course I was gobbling up

668
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 7: as much news as I could about Ellen Greenberg today

669
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 7: because I too just mortified that this is still ruled

670
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 7: a suicide. And it says here at least one of

671
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 7: the many knife wounds on Greenberg's body was to the

672
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 7: back of her neck. While Simon, she's the medical examiner,

673
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 7: found that the pattern of wounds was admittedly unusual, she added,

674
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 7: and I'm gonna quote here, the fact remains that Ellen

675
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 7: would be capable of inflicting these injuries herself. Simon described

676
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 7: many of Ellen's injuries as consistent with hesitation wounds. Tentative

677
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 7: self inflicted injuries that can proceed a fatal wound. So

678
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 7: I don't know if if many of you have seen

679
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 7: the graphic that the parents had made of Ellen's wounds,

680
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 7: but you know, it shows it's so well done. It

681
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 7: shows the many knives in her neck.

682
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 5: Basically, and it was in her neck and her back,

683
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 5: and yeah, like that's the part that's so confused. How

684
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 5: could you even stab yourself multiple times?

685
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: Multiple times?

686
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 8: She was stabbed more than twenty times, and the wounds

687
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 8: were on her neck, her back, her head, and heart.

688
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 8: The knife was ultimately lodged in her chest. Yeah, that's

689
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 8: a number.

690
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: Like your body has a response, you know, like you

691
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: it's very difficult to harm yourself more than once. It's

692
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: like you couldn't tattoo your own arm. Well maybe people do,

693
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: but you get my point. Like the dumbest example would

694
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: be if you've ever tried to, you know, wax your

695
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 2: own leg, and how much anticipation it requires to do

696
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: it twice. Imagine it's a stab wound and then you're

697
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: in agony, and then to do it again. It seems

698
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 2: virtually impossible that your body would even allow for yourself

699
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: to do that you'd go into show.

700
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's how it sounds to me. I know, body

701
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 5: you said, you've been sort of following it. Did she

702
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 5: have any kind of like they said she had any

703
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 5: I don't know, suicidal past or anything like that, or

704
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 5: have you heard anything like that?

705
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 7: The medical examiner did elude to her being completely stressed

706
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 7: out about teaching. She was a teacher that and she

707
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 7: was going through grading and she was she had a

708
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 7: lot of anxiety over it. But that's about it. I mean,

709
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 7: that's about a line. Know, there could be more that

710
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 7: I'm just not familiar with. I haven't, like, you know,

711
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 7: done a whole like body moving victimor assessment on her.

712
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 7: But but you know, I really like Layman's terms kind

713
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 7: of one.

714
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 3: But I'm not sure. But they did say that she

715
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: was going through massive anxiety due to these grades that

716
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 3: she was giving.

717
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that's what I said.

718
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 2: Even if she was completely depressed, that would still be impossible.

719
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: You know, if you were going to stab yourself, you

720
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: would do it in an area that's probably around your chest.

721
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: Again, God forbid.

722
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: These are heinous things to even be thinking about, but

723
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: to be stabbing yourself from behind unless the goal was

724
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 2: to set somebody up to make it appear that somebody

725
00:39:58,480 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: killed you.

726
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 3: And again this is wild.

727
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: And where is the boyfriend now and has he been

728
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: speaking out?

729
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 7: No, he's not saying anything. And you know, it's interesting

730
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 7: and it's important to remember. I think with this case

731
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 7: in particular, that it was initially ruled a homicide and

732
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 7: then the medical examiner met with the police. The original

733
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 7: medical examiner met with the police, and after they met

734
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 7: with the police.

735
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 3: It was ruled a suicide. It's very interesting.

736
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 5: I'd be curious to ask Joseph how often something like

737
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 5: that happens, where it goes from one, you know, one

738
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 5: stage I'm signed to a suicide. That sounds very unusual

739
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 5: to me.

740
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 8: So yeah, although he has I know, he has said

741
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 8: it happens, I mean, the rate of it, we should

742
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 8: ask him. But because it stuck with me because I

743
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 8: was very surprised to learn that. Another thing to note

744
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 8: in Ellen Greenberg's case is that she had multiple bruises

745
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 8: on her body somewhere in various stages of healing. So

746
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 8: that would indicate however she got the bruise. Is uh,

747
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 8: that they were at different times, so that leading up.

748
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 7: And you know, and another thing that I think needs

749
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 7: to be underlined a little bit. And Courtney, You've already

750
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 7: said it, but I kind of want to say it again.

751
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 7: Is that the Greenberg's Ellen's parents hired you know, very

752
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 7: expensive and important forensics experts to review Ellen's you know case,

753
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 7: and they they they said it was a suicide.

754
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sorry, homicide. I spoke. I got my

755
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 3: tongue twisted. I got my tongue twisted.

756
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: I think even Nancy Grace did a whole reenactment, and

757
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: they did, she did a forensics deep dive on the

758
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 2: side of Joseph, and you know, if you watch this stuff,

759
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: it just seems like common sense would suggest there's no

760
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: human possible way that she did it. And my just

761
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: my heart goes out to her family, who's been really pushing.

762
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, that was my first thought because we know, in

763
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 7: speaking with Joseph, how just sweet and nice and caring

764
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 7: they are, and you know they're getting older, you know,

765
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 7: they want to see their daughter's name be restored, you know,

766
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 7: like exactly I am. My heart just goes out to them,

767
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 7: like I was my first thought. I think we were

768
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 7: on the phone. We were on the phone when we

769
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 7: found out, and I.

770
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 3: Was like oh my god, our parents and maybe want

771
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: to cry immediately.

772
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, we were all on the phone. I forgot about

773
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 7: that when we found out. It was just it was

774
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 7: just awful. What do you think about the Ellen Greenberg case?

775
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 7: Give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or

776
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 7: leave us a talkback. Listen Tomorrow's talkback Tuesday, and I

777
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 7: want to talk about Ellen Greenberg, So please go ahead

778
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 7: and leave us a talkback. I just I don't know,

779
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 7: I just feel so bad and I just don't know

780
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 7: how you skew The medical examiner did say there were

781
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 7: hesitation marks, right, and usually with those hesitation I did

782
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 7: this whole thing on Elliott Smith, who stabbed himself in

783
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 7: the chest twice, and I did this for a show

784
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 7: called Resolved on Vice, and I had to do this

785
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,479
Speaker 7: whole thing about people who stabbed themselves and like hesitation marks.

786
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 7: And what I learned is that when when you're stabbing yourself,

787
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 7: a hesitation mark is just it goes in just a

788
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 7: little bit. Like So I'm wondering if it is that

789
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 7: what she sees, or is that what she's considering hesitation marks.

790
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.

791
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 7: I don't know. It just it goes in just a

792
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 7: little bit. I'd like to talk to Joseph and ask

793
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 7: him what a hesitation work looks like. Yeah, inflicted stab wound.

794
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is definitely one. We need to bring Joseph back.

795
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 5: And I think he was one of the first people

796
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 5: that I knew I found out about case from, so

797
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 5: I'm sure he'd be great to be to do a

798
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 5: deep dive into it.

799
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 7: I don't know, I know, I mean, and they spent

800
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 7: so they've spent so much money, you know, doing hiring

801
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 7: people to investigate this, like basically their life savings.

802
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 3: Wow, can you imagine much?

803
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 8: And I'll be because this case happened to while ago

804
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 8: and and of course it has come up again over

805
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 8: time because of the changing medical examiners, you know, rulings,

806
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 8: but highly anticipating watching the documentary.

807
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just to get my facts. I haven't either.

808
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: I have to renew my Hulu membership, but I haven't

809
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 3: done that yet. It's Apartment Taha. Can you remind Apartment

810
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 3: six o three is that correct?

811
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 9: You are correct?

812
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 5: Let me double check because we were just talking about

813
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 5: death and Apartment six o three and it's a Hulu

814
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 5: documentary and like body, I have to renew my Hulu account.

815
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 5: So I have not seen it either. Has anyone anyone

816
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 5: here seen it?

817
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 3: I have you? Did you skipped ahead? I'm not gonna

818
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna.

819
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: Say, but yeah, it's really important stuff. I'm really glad

820
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: we're covering it. I think the more eyes the better,

821
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 2: the more support for her family the better.

822
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 3: You know, there's there's no like.

823
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 2: Secret piece of pie or instant fix or a well

824
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: wished that's really going to ever replace their daughter. But

825
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: to not actually have answers and then to feel so

826
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 2: gas lit again and again and again, I'm curious what

827
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: even happens next?

828
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 3: Are they even having a hearing?

829
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 9: Now?

830
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 3: What's the point? I don't know what's next. Actually that's

831
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 3: a really good question.

832
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 7: You need to find out what's next, Like what what what.

833
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 3: Can the parents do now?

834
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 4: Right?

835
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 7: And they appeal this medical examage decision, I don't even know.

836
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 7: I think that's what they've been trying to do this

837
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 7: whole time, Right, I think they're going to have to

838
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 7: start tagging the governor or something like in this.

839
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: And I don't know, you have to be something.

840
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 2: I mean, it's difficult, and they're going to need our help, right,

841
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: They're going to need our help to do it, so

842
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 2: we all it's all hands on deck for Ellen Greenberg exactly.

843
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: So listen, stay with us for the next hour because

844
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: we are doing a deep dive with a very very

845
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: important arson expert who's going to be joining us to

846
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: break down all things in the Palisades fire that happened

847
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: on January seventh, and we're going to be talking about

848
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: what makes a serial arsonist. So stick with us. This

849
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: is True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight

850
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm

851
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker here as always with Courtney Armstrong and body

852
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: move in.

853
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 3: Listen.

854
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: If you've missed any of the first hour of the show,

855
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: no problem, you can catch it right after as a podcast.

856
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 2: Please do and if you want to join us eight

857
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: eight eight three one Crime or you could always leave

858
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 2: us a talkback as a reminder. Tomorrow is talkback Tuesday,

859
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: so come on, get those questions going. We want to

860
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: hear from you or your dms because listen, talk back

861
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: Tuesdays are a blast, and no opinions or any talkbacks

862
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 2: are unwelcome. You're in a safe zone and.

863
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 3: It's fun to hear your voice on the radio.

864
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 2: It is it just is period the end, So thank

865
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 2: you for that, and kind of switching gears to something

866
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: that's a little close to my heart personally. The Palisades Fire,

867
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: as we all witnessed, happened on January seventh, and you know,

868
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 2: there's been this months and months and months since then

869
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 2: where many people who have lost their lives have had

870
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: to not only start over, but are just trying to

871
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: get their brain around the fact that their homes and

872
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: lives are gone, right, the material stuff, And I want

873
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: to preface by saying, I feel so grateful.

874
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 3: It's stuff. It's just stuff.

875
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 2: Twelve people lost their lives, but as I say, just

876
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 2: I can promise you there's close to seven thousand people

877
00:47:54,440 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: who have been displaced and have lost frankly every thing.

878
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: So starting over is an ongoing thing. And even though

879
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: the event was many months ago, the aftermath, you know,

880
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: truly continues. So we're really just grateful to have ed

881
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 2: Nordskog here. He is an arson profiler also in Los Angeles,

882
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: very close to the case, and is really going to

883
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: kind of share a bit about arson profiling and what

884
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 2: makes a serial arsonist. These are all such scary words ed.

885
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 2: First off, welcome, We're so grateful that you're here.

886
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 9: Thank you for having me.

887
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: There's so much to discuss, you know, it's a it's

888
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 2: it's hard to even know where to begin.

889
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 3: What do you make of the.

890
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: Recent arrest of this gentleman, an uber driver who allegedly

891
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: lit the match that started so much?

892
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 9: Well, that's that's the question. Did he light a match?

893
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 9: The reason I say that is because I've read the

894
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 9: Federal Asst. David about his arrest. They don't actually know

895
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 9: how he started the fire, which that's that's not case killing,

896
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 9: but it could be problematic, you know, for a court,

897
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 9: and that's something the prosecutor will have to deal with.

898
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 3: Mhmm. I read they found a barbee lighter in his

899
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 3: blog box. Is that did? Did you? Is that something

900
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: that could have started it? This this barbecue lighter that

901
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 3: they found in his glovebox?

902
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 9: Sure, any flame source. So in the world of arson,

903
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 9: we say things an open flame source is what usually

904
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 9: ignites things. And when we say that, we mean either

905
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 9: a match, a lighter, barbecue lighter, or even one of

906
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 9: those little torches they sell at the liquor store so

907
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 9: you can cook your methamphetamine. So any anything like that

908
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 9: is an open flame will start just about anything on fire, right,

909
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 9: and just.

910
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 8: To catch people up, it was the gentleman who Stephanie

911
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 8: referred to who has been arrested and charged with starting

912
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 8: the initial fire is a man named Jonathan rinder Neck,

913
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 8: and the allegation is that he started the Lochman fire,

914
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 8: which ultimately led to the deadly and destructive Palisades fire.

915
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 3: But that was days after the Lochman fire.

916
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 8: So Ed wanted to know how we had never understood

917
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 8: the fact or heard that it's possible for something to

918
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 8: smolder underground for many days before traveling a pretty great

919
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 8: distance and reigniting.

920
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 3: Can you explain that a little bit?

921
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, And so people that work wildland fires, which I

922
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 9: have worked a couple hundred wildlands fires and vegetation only

923
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 9: not in homes, understand that, especially in big timber like

924
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 9: where there's big trees and things like that in the mountains,

925
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 9: fires can burn up the tree forest fire and then

926
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 9: go into the root systems and remain underground for weeks

927
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 9: or months, even through even over a winter wow, even

928
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 9: if the ground's covered with snow. And then when the

929
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 9: spring comes and everything dries out and the snow goes

930
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 9: away and the winds pick up. It can move away

931
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 9: some of the surface surface ash and then reignite the

932
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 9: ashes or the embers that are still glowing underground. It

933
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 9: doesn't happen very off. It happens all the time in

934
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 9: the mountains. So wildland firefighters are used to this phenomena.

935
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 9: It's actually quite common, and they have protocols in effect

936
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 9: to limit that. But when you get to the coastal

937
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 9: regions where the Palisades was, they're just a couple miles

938
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,760
Speaker 9: from the coast. We don't have tall timber. We have brush.

939
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 9: You know, it's pretty high brush, sometimes up to twelve

940
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 9: feet high fifteen feet high, but the brush doesn't have

941
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 9: as deep root systems, and it's easy to remove brush,

942
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 9: or easier to remove brush than a big tree. So

943
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 9: this case, I know what the fire department's put out,

944
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 9: but it's put out into the media, But in reality,

945
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 9: the roots are just a couple inches underground, and the

946
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 9: fire can remain smoldering in those roots, and it did.

947
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 9: There's visual evidence of it for a couple of days

948
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,479
Speaker 9: prior to the bigger fire, that there was some sort

949
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 9: of smoldering activity going on, and it doesn't travel, doesn't

950
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 9: travel through these roots systems more than a couple of feet.

951
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 9: So really the fire was put out on the Lockman

952
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 9: fire was put out on January first, probably three or

953
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 9: four in the morning. It was put out for the

954
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 9: most part. It was a cool night. It was semi

955
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 9: foggy that night and not much wind, so good conditions

956
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 9: for firefighting. And they knocked the fire down and then

957
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 9: they put a hose line in a scratch line around that.

958
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 9: So scratch line is when you see the firefighters out

959
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 9: there with those tools scraping away the brush. They put

960
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 9: an entire hose line and scratch line around this fire.

961
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 9: It was about eight acres in size. So they remained

962
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 9: on scene till about half the day on the first

963
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 9: of January, and then they left the scene. And then,

964
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 9: as everybody in La knew, by about the third of January,

965
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 9: the National Weather Service and the fire departments were predicting

966
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 9: once in a lifetime catastrophic wins coming. And it's not

967
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 9: the usual media hyperbole, but that actually happened. And I've

968
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 9: been in Los Angeles for forty years. Those were the

969
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 9: worst wins I'd ever seen that I'd never seen winds

970
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 9: to stain that long in the Los Angeles basin, and

971
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 9: so these were extraordinary winds, they were anomalies, odd odd things,

972
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 9: and so the fire agencies had about a four or

973
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 9: five day period to prepare for them. And I think

974
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 9: that's where you're going to see the headlines these days

975
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 9: and the controversies. What was done between the Lochman fire

976
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 9: being considered out on January first, or at the latest

977
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 9: January tewod to the ignition of the Palisades fire in

978
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 9: the exact same spot five or six days later.

979
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 2: And it doesn't seem And listen, by the way, if

980
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: you're just joining us, we're talking about the Palisades fire

981
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 2: and speaking about the idea that it was a single

982
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 2: arsonist allegedly at work. And if that's the case, you

983
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 2: know what happens next. So it's possible that this one

984
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 2: person on New Year's Eve, allegedly having a breakup with

985
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: his girlfriend, a little down on his luck, agitated, according

986
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 2: to a report who was an uber driver. The report

987
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: is that the passengers in the uber said he was,

988
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 2: you know, kind of ticked off, if he were ritated, irritated,

989
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: just not in a good mood. By the way, it's

990
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: New Year's Eve. Some people get a little you know

991
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 2: down on New Year's Eve if they're not celebrating with

992
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 2: the one that they love. So so he climbs onto

993
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: this mountain listening to some random French song that has

994
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: some video, and in the video the person is like

995
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 2: lighting things on fire. It seems like again were there

996
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 2: has to be more forensics in my opinion, and listen.

997
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 3: Any would agree.

998
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 2: Very few people want there to be justice in this

999
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: more than me, right, I mean, I have loved ones

1000
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 2: and neighbors and friends, people that are still displaced, staying

1001
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: at the house with their five family of five, you know,

1002
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: with the people that there they evacuated to nine months

1003
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: ago in an apartment.

1004
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 3: There's just it's not easy to start over.

1005
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 2: There's not enough you know, trips to home goods to

1006
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,439
Speaker 2: make losing everything Okay, Is it possible that this one

1007
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,240
Speaker 2: man is responsible for all of this devastation in your opinion?

1008
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 9: Well, the US attorney thinks so, and that's the person.

1009
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 4: Who counts, because that's.

1010
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 9: Going to bring charges for this fire. And right now

1011
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 9: they I've seen the evidence that links him to the scene.

1012
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 9: So one of the questions people say was, how do

1013
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,439
Speaker 9: you figure out what happened. It's a wildland fire. Yeah,

1014
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 9: there's not much forensic And you hit upon that there's

1015
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 9: not a lot of forensics if they use a hot

1016
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 9: set ignission, which means just using a lighter or a

1017
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 9: match or something, so they don't leave a lot of

1018
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 9: evidence for us to find. The first problem that investig.

1019
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 8: Do you know what, We're gonna address the audio real quick.

1020
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 8: The guys are going to get on that. But this

1021
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 8: actually gives me a really good moment to kind of

1022
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 8: lay out exactly who we're speaking with with. Ed Nordskog.

1023
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 8: He is a fire death scene and expert. He is

1024
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 8: a serial arson analyst, and he is one of literally

1025
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 8: the most decorated arson investigators in the world. He's a

1026
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 8: Master certified fire investigator and a cold case consultant who

1027
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 8: has handled more than twenty one hundred arson cases, has

1028
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 8: testified in over one hundred trials, and now consults with

1029
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 8: law enforcement nationwide. He also is the author of Tortured Minds,

1030
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 8: The Arsonist Profiles, and Fire Death Scene Investigation. So, I

1031
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 8: know that's a lot, but we should know exactly who

1032
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 8: we're speaking with and who can help clarify these really

1033
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 8: complicated issues, particularly as it pertains to the Palisades fire.

1034
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 8: Right now, right, it's literally the expert, the number one expert.

1035
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 3: So ed with. Is it unusual to have this amount?

1036
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 8: Does this seem like a small amount of forensics or

1037
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 8: is this kind of are you dealt the cards?

1038
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 3: You're dealt.

1039
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 9: Well, your delta cards. You're dealt with on a wildland fire.

1040
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 9: And our first thing is to find out where the

1041
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 9: fire started. And the investigators look at things on the ground,

1042
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 9: they look at video, of course, at they listen to

1043
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 9: civilian witnesses who first saw the fire. Once they figure

1044
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 9: out where the fire started, which is actually quite detailed process,

1045
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 9: then they have to figure out is this a crime,

1046
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 9: how did it start? Is this an accidental event? And

1047
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 9: they have to start eliminating potential accidental causes. Power Line

1048
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 9: is one of the most common ones. There are no

1049
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 9: none in that area. Lightning is the next most common

1050
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 9: one in California. There's no lightning that night, so those

1051
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 9: are easy to exclude. Human activity is the next cause,

1052
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 9: or machinery operating. So there's no roads where the fire started,

1053
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 9: so there's no vehicles to consider, no electric fences, no generators,

1054
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 9: things like that, so now it's down to human activity.

1055
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 9: And as you pointed out, this happened in New Year's Eve,

1056
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 9: just after midnight. It is reasonable to expect fireworks in

1057
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 9: Los Ane Angelus. If anybody's been around and sober on

1058
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 9: New Year's Eve, you'll see half a billion fireworks in

1059
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 9: the air, and that is a common ignition source for

1060
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 9: wildfires near the urban areas. The federal report says they've

1061
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 9: eliminated that possibility by cambing the area of origin and

1062
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 9: finding no evidence of fireworks. Fireworks leaves a lot of

1063
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,479
Speaker 9: paper and cardboard evidence, and we can find those even

1064
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 9: after big fires. However, there's a problem with that theory.

1065
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 9: Although the federal report says they eliminated fireworks, actually there's

1066
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 9: a huge problem in that the Lockman fire started on

1067
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 9: New Year's Eve, and there's no information that the city

1068
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 9: fire department sent any arson investigators over the next couple

1069
00:59:54,080 --> 01:00:00,439
Speaker 9: of days, and I've never heard them rebut that, so

1070
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 9: I'm going to assume that they did not send any right,

1071
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 9: and that's a huge problem because the Feds didn't get

1072
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 9: involved until after the Palace Sades fire, and we already

1073
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 9: know that there was eighty mile per hour winds on

1074
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 9: the Palas Sages fire. And if there's paper or cardboard

1075
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 9: evidence laying on the ground in that burn zone and

1076
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 9: that burn scar, it could have been blown all the

1077
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 9: way to Santa Monica and of course they wouldn't find it.

1078
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 9: So that's an issue they're going to have to deal

1079
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 9: with that trial to firm that up.

1080
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't really change the fact that nobody

1081
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: could escape. So there were just city issues. I can

1082
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 2: say that firsthand that just were not properly in play

1083
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 2: period the end to be able to survive something like this.

1084
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 3: People couldn't get out.

1085
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 2: There was no necessarily even water in the fire hydrants,

1086
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 2: and it was apocalyptic to say the least. If it

1087
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 2: is this one person and it was unintentional, you would

1088
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 2: have to assume that they were lighting a match in

1089
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 2: this Lachman fire, not to obviously murder or kill twelve

1090
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 2: people and destroy so much. Does that matter in any universe.

1091
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 9: Or they just because because arson's one of the weird

1092
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 9: crimes that it's a general intent crime. You just you

1093
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 9: don't have to have the intent to kill anybody. You

1094
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 9: just have to have the intent to start the fire

1095
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 9: and whatever happens after that, you're generally responsible for It's

1096
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 9: one of the very few crimes that's a general intent crime.

1097
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 9: In murder and stuff like that, you have to have intent,

1098
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 9: not so much for arson. You're responsible for everything after

1099
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 9: the fire starts.

1100
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 8: Wow, I absolutely didn't know that. Listen, keep it here,

1101
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 8: because we are going to have a lot more with

1102
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 8: Arson analyst Ed Nordsgog. He's going to explain what truly

1103
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 8: separates a serial arsonist from a one time offender. We

1104
01:01:56,320 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 8: will likely continue with more on the Palisades fire.

1105
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 3: We have that much more true crime tonight. We are

1106
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 3: talking to true crime all the time.

1107
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1108
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1109
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in, and we're doing a

1110
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 2: deep dive into the idea of arson. We've been really

1111
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 2: down the rabbit hole on this Pacific Palisades arrest. There's

1112
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 2: an arsonist who has been taken into custody. He claims

1113
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 2: to be not guilty and is sort of waiting for

1114
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 2: next steps in Florida where he was apprehended.

1115
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 3: Courtney, do you want to jump in? Absolutely so.

1116
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 8: We are really thrilled and honored to be back with

1117
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 8: fire death scene expert and serial arson analyst Ed Norskog.

1118
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 8: You have so many accolades, it's a little bit of

1119
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 8: a mouthful. So Ed is literally one of the most

1120
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 8: decorated arson investigators in the world and has authored books

1121
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 8: including The Arsenist Profiles as well as Fire Death Scene Investigation. So, Ed,

1122
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 8: can you walk us through a little bit what is

1123
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 8: the profiling aspect? For example, we know the top line

1124
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 8: of a serial killer, things you can look out for

1125
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 8: in your life, you know, late stage bedwetting, hurting or

1126
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 8: killing of animals, and it escalates from there. Can you

1127
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 8: just give us one oh one on arsenist profiling?

1128
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 9: Yeah? Sure. So the big well profiling is is courts.

1129
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 9: When I go into quarts, courts roll their eyes that

1130
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 9: the word profile, and they they understand that some of

1131
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 9: the early profiling that didn't really cover our and they

1132
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 9: threw it in with all the homicide profiling, which is

1133
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 9: not accurate. And the old theory was that all serial

1134
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 9: killers were serial arsens when they were young. That's not

1135
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 9: true at all. There's a there's a sizeable percentage and

1136
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 9: maybe up to forty percent of serial killers did have

1137
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 9: fireplay or some sort of arsen activity. But there's a

1138
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 9: lot more serial arsenists than there there are serial killers.

1139
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 9: There's tens of thousands of serial arsen and more every day.

1140
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of reasons. I had known that

1141
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 3: many what why? What? What would cause a person to

1142
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 3: do this?

1143
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 9: Well, so right away you're trying to add common sense

1144
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 9: to a nonsense to coll act. Starting a fire and

1145
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 9: generally for people that aren't crazy, is something done out

1146
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 9: of anger and frustration and passion. Those are the big

1147
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 9: reasons that people set a fire. They're lonely, they're frustrated,

1148
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 9: they're angry. And I've spoken to I've arrested about three

1149
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 9: hundred and fifty arsenists and cial arsenists, and I'm the

1150
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 9: one that interviews them in a little room, and so

1151
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 9: I get into their deep dark thoughts and listen to

1152
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 9: them and get into their childhood if I can. So

1153
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 9: I get to play you know, psychologists.

1154
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 4: Without a psychology degree.

1155
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 3: And I was going to say, yeah, so interesting, but

1156
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 3: they're all different.

1157
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 9: And so a profile that was generated I used to

1158
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 9: I make fun of in my book called the Arsen's Profile.

1159
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 9: I make fun of the profile that was the old

1160
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 9: profile from the eighties was it's a lone white male

1161
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 9: eighteen to thirty four who doesn't do well at work,

1162
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 9: doesn't do good in relationships, has bad marriages if married,

1163
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 9: has sexual identity issues, possibly has obsession with pornography and masturbation,

1164
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 9: things like that, doesn't get along with people at work,

1165
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 9: as an obsession with police and fire That was sort

1166
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 9: of the generic profile. After you know, I read that

1167
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 9: after being in the job for quite a while. I

1168
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 9: looked around, and that's everybody in my office.

1169
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, and history, what do

1170
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 3: you mind?

1171
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 2: I just thought of about eleven people who might be potential.

1172
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 3: Arm and Stephanie are volune at this point.

1173
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 9: That fIF tops and firefighters. I know. I'm like, oh,

1174
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 9: that can't be a good profile, because it's not. It's

1175
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 9: garbage right right. There's there's just as many serial arts

1176
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 9: in this per capita in the Asian community as there

1177
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 9: is in the Caucasian There is just as many per

1178
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 9: capita in the black community as there is in the

1179
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 9: white community.

1180
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 4: So it's.

1181
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 9: It's just in certain communities we don't catch that man,

1182
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 9: we don't we don't see them, or we're not looking

1183
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 9: for them. And people don't report them. So there's a

1184
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 9: lot of issues. It's it's law enforcements problem. But just

1185
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 9: rest assured. There's a lot. And the number one reason

1186
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 9: that there's more every day is methamphetamine. Our friend. Methamphetamine,

1187
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 9: which which is the worst scores on the planet ever,

1188
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 9: causes brain damage one of its many attributes, and almost

1189
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 9: virtually every serial arsenist has a form of brain damage.

1190
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 9: A significant number of serial killers have brain damage too,

1191
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 9: but virtually, well over ninety percent serial arsenists have a

1192
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 9: form of brain damage, and that could be they could

1193
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 9: be borne that way if they're fetal alcohol syndrome, if

1194
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 9: they're if they're fetal any any drug, meths babies, heroin babies,

1195
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 9: something like that. Also, sports injuries and military injuries caused

1196
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 9: brain and for a for a certain amount of people

1197
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 9: that will lead to later life addictions, uh, mental health issues,

1198
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 9: and one of those is fire setting amongst some of them.

1199
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 9: So you'll have there's some very famous athletes that were

1200
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 9: serial arsenists that you don't know of. And I'm not

1201
01:07:57,560 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 9: going to say their names, but I.

1202
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 4: Was just going to say, what's that.

1203
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 7: I was just going to say name them, but I understand, Yeah,

1204
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 7: I understand.

1205
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 8: I understand that's fascinating and that potentially could be attributed

1206
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 8: Yeah to CTE.

1207
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 3: I guess is the or some type of brain damage.

1208
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 9: Right, And if you remember when COVID was here, there's

1209
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,920
Speaker 9: some effects of COVID that Ceial arsenests have, which is

1210
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 9: they can't taste their food, they don't sleep, they can't

1211
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 9: smell their food. And that is from me temperate. COVID

1212
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 9: caused a temporary brain injure and in some people and

1213
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 9: some some'm a permanent one. And so when I interview

1214
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 9: Ceial Arseness, I asked, and can you taste your food?

1215
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 9: You sleep at night, you smell things, and a large

1216
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 9: number cannot taste their food. They don't. They have insomnia.

1217
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 9: That's why they wander the streets at night lighting things

1218
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 9: on fire. So there's a lot of issues, chemical issues,

1219
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 9: and the number one reason is self induced brain trauma

1220
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:03,520
Speaker 9: through through Matthews and metham. Fetamine, different than any other drugs,

1221
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:08,839
Speaker 9: is not made from any natural materials like cocaine or heroin. Right,

1222
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 9: So if you have a brain damage from math at

1223
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 9: age sixteen, you will not get better. You will have

1224
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 9: the same brain damage the rest of your lives. Where

1225
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 9: people can recover from some of the other more natural drugs.

1226
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 9: So anyway, all this stuff comes together, and then start

1227
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 9: treating people like that with psychiatric drugs, which actually makes

1228
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 9: it worse sometimes if they don't know that you're on

1229
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 9: mental health drugs and pain pills and sleek drugs. And

1230
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 9: so this concoction of drugs is very common in people

1231
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 9: who set fires. So when we look at somebody like that,

1232
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 9: we try to get their whole background, mental health, medical

1233
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 9: and lifestyle background.

1234
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 3: Does the offender in this case, the alleged offender in

1235
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 3: this case render neck, Does he fit any kind of

1236
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:59,879
Speaker 3: profile that you can ascertain?

1237
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, And and we don't really profile people anymore. We

1238
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 9: profile what did they do?

1239
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:06,640
Speaker 4: How did they do it?

1240
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 9: But that's fine, We'll go with that. He is described

1241
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 9: by people already as a loaner and lonely, So he

1242
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 9: is lonely, and it was a holiday time. As you

1243
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 9: pointed out, that is that is that is important in

1244
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 9: overall consideration, possibly and that I like that word trigger

1245
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 9: for some some people. And also he was he appeared

1246
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:32,639
Speaker 9: to be listening to that same song over and over,

1247
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 9: supposedly nine nine times in a fairly short period of time,

1248
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 9: and so that's somebody that's obsessing. And most serial arsen

1249
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 9: are obsessive people, obsessive compulsives. So that fits. Plus the

1250
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 9: fact most serial arsonists do not pick random targets, or

1251
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 9: most arsens don't pick random targets. They pick familial targets,

1252
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 9: something they have a personal connection to for what a reason.

1253
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 9: And in this case, he used to live in that neighborhood.

1254
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 9: And he even told the investigators that he used to

1255
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 9: come to that very spot where the fire started and

1256
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:13,720
Speaker 9: hang out with a past friend. And so that's a

1257
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 9: very familiar thing. That's a big deal. And like I said,

1258
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 9: they just don't pick random targets to light on fire.

1259
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 9: That's something that means something to them. So all these

1260
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 9: things are in there. And I was told that he

1261
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 9: was agitated and angry, and like I said, the common

1262
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:35,480
Speaker 9: emotions are anger, loneliness, agitation, and frustration.

1263
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:40,560
Speaker 7: Well, it sounds like maybe the combination of the holiday

1264
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 7: and the location might have been some kind of trigger.

1265
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 7: What do you think give us a call? Eighty eight

1266
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 7: thirty one crime. This is true crime tonight. I'm here

1267
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 7: with Stephanie of course, Fortney of course, and we are

1268
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:56,559
Speaker 7: here with fire, death, scene expert and serial arson analyst

1269
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,640
Speaker 7: Ed Nortzkog. He's one of the most decorated arson investigators

1270
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 7: in the world. And right now we're talking about the

1271
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 7: alleged suspect in the Pacific Palisades fire. Give us a

1272
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:10,599
Speaker 7: call eight and eight thirty one crime. What behavioral signs

1273
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 7: do investigators look for early on? Because they interviewed this

1274
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 7: guy in late January, so he was on their radar

1275
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:22,600
Speaker 7: somehow do they look for any kind of signs behavioral

1276
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 7: signs early on?

1277
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 9: Well, first of all, he put himself on their on

1278
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 9: their radar.

1279
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:28,799
Speaker 3: He did made.

1280
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:36,760
Speaker 9: He made multiple nine and that's a behavior that's very important.

1281
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 9: Now citizens call nine one one, So just calling nine

1282
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 9: one one isn't weaned anything. But a significant number of

1283
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 9: arsonists report their own fires. Maybe they lit the fire

1284
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 9: and they go, oh my god, it's bigger than I

1285
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 9: thought it was going to be okay, and and they realized, oh,

1286
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 9: that was really stupid, and then maybe they tried.

1287
01:12:55,479 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 4: To put it out.

1288
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 9: I don't know what he did, but he certainly call

1289
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 9: all nine one one multiple times. He then left the scene,

1290
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 9: and then when the fire engine started arriving, he pulled

1291
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 9: in behind them and followed him back to the scene.

1292
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 9: There are a significant significant number of serial arsis to

1293
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 9: do that very thing and then engage in a mitigation

1294
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 9: of the fire, trying to assist interact with the firefighters.

1295
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 9: There's a there's a decent amount of serial arsenists to

1296
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 9: engage in that sort of behavior as well. They try

1297
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 9: to so from ah standpoint, that means a lot. Yeah,

1298
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,479
Speaker 9: they're trying to help. Maybe they're trying to be viewed

1299
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 9: as people like to read into it, only only that

1300
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 9: the defendant knows why. People go, well, he's trying to

1301
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 9: be a hero. Some people do that, some firefighter, serial

1302
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 9: arsens do that. Some of them are excitement thrilled. They're

1303
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 9: thrill seekers some of them, and that's part of the thrill.

1304
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:55,760
Speaker 9: I don't know that that's his case. He sounds more,

1305
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 9: you know, like his traits are already popping up as

1306
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 9: more kind of the card and variety of arsonists, somebody

1307
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 9: who's alone, upset and life's not going real well for

1308
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 9: them at the moment.

1309
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 2: You know, you had said that you have personally, you know,

1310
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 2: interviewed hundreds of arsonists. It's such an interesting thing because

1311
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 2: here's somebody is they light a fire, allegedly they get

1312
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 2: away with it, and now months, months and months later

1313
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 2: in this case, you know, we're coming up in a

1314
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:27,639
Speaker 2: year almost, you know, a few months shy of course,

1315
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 2: how does that go down in your world?

1316
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 4: Ed?

1317
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 2: You know, does somebody just suddenly get a knock on

1318
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 2: their door and they're like, oh, surprise, it's us. You know,

1319
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,240
Speaker 2: we've been tracking you for nine months, and you thought

1320
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 2: you got away with it. I would imagine people go

1321
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 2: back to their lives and just pretend that everything is fine.

1322
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 9: Sure they do, and they talk to them a long

1323
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,400
Speaker 9: time ago. And then investigators we have our own little tricks.

1324
01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 9: I won't tell you all of them, but one of

1325
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 9: them is just to drop from the sky. And that's

1326
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 9: a little in It unnerves the offender who may have

1327
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:06,160
Speaker 9: thought they got away with something. Just okay, we interviewed you,

1328
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 9: you were really suspicious eight months ago, and now you

1329
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,600
Speaker 9: haven't heard from us in eight months, and maybe you

1330
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:15,840
Speaker 9: let your guard down, and then we swoop in. We

1331
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 9: drop from the sky out of nowhere, and they I know,

1332
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 9: they lured him out of his house with a pretense

1333
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,680
Speaker 9: phone call, and then it took him down in a

1334
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 9: traffic stop. And it's a good thing to unnerve somebody

1335
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 9: because and this is what I tell everybody, though, all

1336
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 9: the work that we do is investigators that scene work,

1337
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 9: listening to the victim, seeing the damage. We are documenting

1338
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 9: the data, stockpiling it put in our head and waiting

1339
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 9: for the moment we can sit and talk to this person.

1340
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 9: And usually they're the most honest right after we arrest them,

1341
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 9: and that is the most likely chance you'll get the

1342
01:15:56,080 --> 01:15:58,360
Speaker 9: most honesty you're ever going to get out of that person.

1343
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:05,520
Speaker 9: Because get into a custody setting, they become institutionalized, and

1344
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 9: that means you'll have jailhouse lawyers, they have real lawyers,

1345
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 9: and they have court pointed psychiatrists who are telling them

1346
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,479
Speaker 9: what to say and all this stuff. Any interviews, people

1347
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 9: always say I want to go to the prisons and

1348
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 9: interview people. It's a waste of time in in my opinion,

1349
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:25,559
Speaker 9: because they say what they need to get things in

1350
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:29,599
Speaker 9: life and to get perks in life, and they've learned

1351
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:32,759
Speaker 9: they've learned how to mimic psychiatrists, which is really interesting.

1352
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 2: It's also unique that in this case the accused he

1353
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 2: also left Hollywood where he was living when he started

1354
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:43,759
Speaker 2: these fires, and then moved to Florida.

1355
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 3: He was ultimately arrested in Melbourne, Florida.

1356
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 2: I believe is that also kind of a tell that

1357
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 2: somebody would, you know, get out of town and relocate

1358
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 2: in the months.

1359
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 3: After starting a fire allegedly allegedly.

1360
01:16:56,320 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 9: Allegedly, Well see you that ended up in para way,

1361
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 9: maybe I would consider that. I mean, right, he did

1362
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:08,040
Speaker 9: distance himself. His name came up, so maybe he's concerned

1363
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 9: that people are going to turn on him because, as

1364
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:13,839
Speaker 9: you mentioned, you know, a big swath of Los Angeles

1365
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 9: lost everything and people are not happy, of course, And

1366
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 9: maybe he lost his job with Uber. I'm sure as

1367
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 9: soon as he was interviewed, so he took a different

1368
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 9: job in Florida. So maybe a bunch of things came

1369
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:28,720
Speaker 9: to a head. But I'm sure the fact that the

1370
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 9: FEDS interviewed him unnerved him quite a bit.

1371
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 7: Stick around, because we've got more to dig into more

1372
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:37,840
Speaker 7: with arson analyst Ed Northgog, he's the expert. We're going

1373
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,160
Speaker 7: to continue exploring the mind of an arsonist and covering

1374
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,840
Speaker 7: the destructive Palas States fire in Los Angeles. Keep it

1375
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 7: right here at True Crime Tonight.

1376
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1377
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1378
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:06,639
Speaker 2: my mates Courtney Armstrong and body move in on tough topic.

1379
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:08,759
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to de lie this whole

1380
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 2: idea that there was a single person potentially responsible for

1381
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 2: the Palisades fire that destroyed so much for so many.

1382
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 2: It's really hard to wrap our brains around. We have

1383
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:27,599
Speaker 2: Esteemed Arson profiler, an expert at Nordskog here really breaking

1384
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,680
Speaker 2: down for us some of the real basics when it

1385
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 2: comes to Arson.

1386
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,200
Speaker 3: He's the guy. This is the guy that.

1387
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 2: Literally, when arrested, he does the interviews sometimes up to

1388
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:43,679
Speaker 2: thirteen hours to get answers in this very nebulous thing,

1389
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 2: this very nebulous crime. Let's assume that this person is

1390
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:52,679
Speaker 2: in fact the guy. For one second, again he claims

1391
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:56,640
Speaker 2: his innocence. Does that now mean that the city of

1392
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 2: Los Angeles is off the hook for all of the

1393
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 2: things that I could say, per suddenly seemed to have

1394
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:06,680
Speaker 2: really also amplified a very terrible scenario, only to be

1395
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 2: made into a complete nightmare.

1396
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:11,040
Speaker 3: Is it possible that.

1397
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:13,680
Speaker 2: One man will take this responsibility and that takes the

1398
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:17,000
Speaker 2: heat off perhaps the city and the state.

1399
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:21,400
Speaker 9: Well, I don't think that's going to happen in this case,

1400
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 9: but maybe that's the intention or hope of some officials.

1401
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 9: There is some significant issues with the overall event, as

1402
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:35,439
Speaker 9: you mentioned earlier about the lack of water and things

1403
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:40,000
Speaker 9: like that, fire hydrant issues and not enough firefighters. But

1404
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:43,519
Speaker 9: before that event even happened, you have to address the

1405
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:46,519
Speaker 9: Lockman fire, which was the first one, that's eight acre

1406
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:50,559
Speaker 9: fire on January first. A good question to ask is

1407
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 9: was it truly out? And they've admitted that it was not.

1408
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 9: Then the next question is what did they do to

1409
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:02,840
Speaker 9: make sure is out? And that's been really vague, And

1410
01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 9: there's certain protocols that are common in the firefighting field,

1411
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:11,040
Speaker 9: use of hand crews to go in and physically check

1412
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:14,440
Speaker 9: over the next couple of days, the use of dozers,

1413
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 9: the use of thermal imaging cameras to look for hotspots.

1414
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 9: But there's also another mistake that there wasn't even an

1415
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:24,639
Speaker 9: investigator sent to the first fire, so we don't really

1416
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:28,679
Speaker 9: know much about that first fire until after the FEDS

1417
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 9: get involved after the second big fire. And so those

1418
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:36,800
Speaker 9: are some huge issues that for major agency are almost unforgiven.

1419
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:42,600
Speaker 2: Missions the firefighters themselves who have put their lives on

1420
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:45,800
Speaker 2: the line with no resources. You know, I can say also,

1421
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:49,599
Speaker 2: trying to even get out from the Palisades was close

1422
01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 2: to impossible, and firemen were trying to come into the fire,

1423
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:56,759
Speaker 2: and you know, people were abandoning their.

1424
01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:58,879
Speaker 3: Cars, et cetera. So that was a real problem.

1425
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 2: So here's a who's telling their law enforcement and their

1426
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:06,839
Speaker 2: firefighters that we have your backs while you save others,

1427
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 2: we have your back, And it's egregious because it doesn't

1428
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 2: really seem like that was the case.

1429
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:13,919
Speaker 3: So if this is the guy.

1430
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 2: You know, listen, you don't want to know my opinion

1431
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:19,600
Speaker 2: if this is the guy. But it also makes me

1432
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:22,639
Speaker 2: worried that everything is getting pinned on one guy when

1433
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 2: there were a lot of others escapegos, real issues that

1434
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 2: lent itself to to twelve lives being lost. It's not

1435
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:33,120
Speaker 2: just about all of our stuff in our lives. Listen,

1436
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:36,559
Speaker 2: your world has changed forever, but people lost their lives,

1437
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:41,080
Speaker 2: their pets, their loved ones, they're everything, and it's still

1438
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 2: a mess. So I guess that's my two cents. I

1439
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:45,800
Speaker 2: don't want to grand stand here with you, Ed, but

1440
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:51,080
Speaker 2: I hope it really does you know, refuel the conversation

1441
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 2: about the fires to make sure that this type of

1442
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 2: thing doesn't happen to anyone else. I literally had to

1443
01:21:56,479 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 2: leave the state because it's too scary to be there,

1444
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 2: in my opinion, and I loved it so well.

1445
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 9: To your point, my last thing on this subject is,

1446
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,759
Speaker 9: we've had riots in LA and we've had some other major,

1447
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,520
Speaker 9: huge things, and after every one of those hugely traumatic,

1448
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:20,759
Speaker 9: dramatic things, they appointed an independent commission to find out

1449
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 9: everything about the entire thing A to Z. And that's

1450
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 9: what they need to do here. And I've said that

1451
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 9: on some television interviews. Not have fire chiefs run it,

1452
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 9: and certainly not the mayor's office. So the governors have

1453
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:35,240
Speaker 9: an independent commission like they had after the La riots

1454
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:38,320
Speaker 9: and find out everything from the start of the Lockman

1455
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 9: fire till you know, two weeks after the Palisades fire,

1456
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:45,479
Speaker 9: and for the sole purpose of we're going to have

1457
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 9: the same weather, the conditions will repeat themselves. We just

1458
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 9: don't want the event to repeat itself.

1459
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, that's right man. That is that is powerful,

1460
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:03,439
Speaker 3: and that's definitely how it feels. Yeah, you having been

1461
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:07,479
Speaker 3: physically in it, there's something productive we can take from this.

1462
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,200
Speaker 2: So you know, it's a tough one, right because you know,

1463
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:14,559
Speaker 2: I personally was so incredibly unprepared. You know, you think

1464
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:17,040
Speaker 2: that there's some smoke, You grab your phone in your purse,

1465
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 2: thank god I did. But you know you don't have

1466
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 2: gas in your car. You're wearing the clothes on your back,

1467
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:24,600
Speaker 2: and that's a wrap of your whole life. That is

1468
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 2: the story for For Frankly, everyone was in the thick

1469
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:30,880
Speaker 2: of it, right, So you know, now I'm down this

1470
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:33,639
Speaker 2: like crazy path of like get a go go kit,

1471
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 2: make sure you have sneakers in your car and you

1472
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 2: have cash in your car, and I've turned into a

1473
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:41,439
Speaker 2: weird prepper, you know, candidly since then. But is there

1474
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 2: something that we can be doing or even you know,

1475
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,840
Speaker 2: looking for in in young people or you know, if

1476
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:51,919
Speaker 2: parents could you know, notice something in their own children

1477
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:53,840
Speaker 2: that might you know, prove to be a little air

1478
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:58,599
Speaker 2: quotes wayward that would suggest, hey, this is some this

1479
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 2: is some arson potential and we need to put a

1480
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 2: lid on it.

1481
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 3: Is there are there.

1482
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:08,240
Speaker 2: Traits that young adults may be presenting that we should

1483
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:08,720
Speaker 2: be aware of.

1484
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 9: Sure, So if you have a twelve year old and

1485
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 9: they're engaged. They start a couple of fires over a

1486
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 9: week in your backyard or the lot next to you.

1487
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:22,800
Speaker 9: You've got a problem in the path. People say, well,

1488
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 9: that's just juvenile fireplay. A twelve year old with normal

1489
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:31,920
Speaker 9: intelligence and emotional issues should not be playing with fire.

1490
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:34,559
Speaker 9: That's what four year olds and six year olds do

1491
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:38,680
Speaker 9: at the max. Now, if there's some mental health or

1492
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:43,000
Speaker 9: or diagnosed emotional issues, that extends the age a bit

1493
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 9: to you know, eight, ten, twelve, even adulthood for special

1494
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:53,080
Speaker 9: needs people. But it's not curiosity, it's not innocent fireplay.

1495
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:56,559
Speaker 9: It's you have a fire setter that needs counseling. And

1496
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 9: by the way, going to visit the firehouse doesn't solve

1497
01:24:59,880 --> 01:25:03,760
Speaker 9: an and talking to the firefighters. They're not trained counselors.

1498
01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:07,519
Speaker 9: Great people, really good professionals at what they do, but

1499
01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:10,479
Speaker 9: they don't. They don't counsel people. You need to go

1500
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 9: to a therapist, a psychologist, somebody like that.

1501
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:15,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, reading, that's.

1502
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:20,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, and there's it's it's an impulse control issue, is

1503
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 9: exactly what it is. And it's a parenting issue. By

1504
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 9: the way, there's usually no parents in the picture, not

1505
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 9: available or something else, and there's much deeper issues of

1506
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 9: course that are really ugly. But all that, if everything

1507
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:35,880
Speaker 9: else is relatively safe in your house and you have

1508
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:41,160
Speaker 9: a juvenile fire setter, you've got a problem. So mental

1509
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:42,760
Speaker 9: health professional is a place to.

1510
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:44,960
Speaker 3: Go, Thank you very much.

1511
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 8: Anything actionable is always what we do look for.

1512
01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:51,040
Speaker 3: It's so important. This is truecrime tonight.

1513
01:25:51,040 --> 01:25:53,679
Speaker 8: I'm Courtney, I'm here with Stephanie, I'm here with Body

1514
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 8: and tonight we're really honored to be here with Ed Nordskog.

1515
01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:02,560
Speaker 8: He's a fire death scene expert and a serial arson profiler.

1516
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:05,480
Speaker 8: If you want to weigh in and ask any questions

1517
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 8: eight A eight three one crime anything Stephanie had mentioned.

1518
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 3: Before, a go go bag?

1519
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 8: Or what do you do as someone living in a

1520
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:21,519
Speaker 8: fire fire city or not? I mean again, the weather

1521
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:22,679
Speaker 8: will happen again.

1522
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 9: Well, the biggest issue, and no one's going to like

1523
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:29,360
Speaker 9: this answer, is if you live in the brush line,

1524
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:32,320
Speaker 9: you're going to have fires. And there are certain celebrities

1525
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:35,439
Speaker 9: who I know because we've been to their houses whose

1526
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:37,639
Speaker 9: houses have burned down multiple times. In Malibu.

1527
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:38,439
Speaker 3: Oh my good.

1528
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:41,559
Speaker 9: Now there's two canyons in Malibu where every seven years

1529
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:45,400
Speaker 9: you're going to have a catastrophic fire. The Pala Stage

1530
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:47,880
Speaker 9: isn't like that. It's a few miles removed and so

1531
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:52,799
Speaker 9: that the topography is not the same there, but it's closed.

1532
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 9: But in Malibu, Laguna Neguel, even the Altadena area, it's predictable.

1533
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 9: You're going to have those fires. Sooner or later. Your

1534
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 9: house is going to burn down. There's nothing the firefighters

1535
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:05,599
Speaker 9: can do to stop a wind driven brush fire.

1536
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:09,840
Speaker 3: I left Californa right after the Laguna Canyon fire in

1537
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 3: the nineties.

1538
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 9: That's when I love yeah, and Laguna Canyon burns every

1539
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:18,200
Speaker 9: seven day years at light clockwork, and there's nothing anybody

1540
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 9: can do to stop. But if you build there, you're

1541
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:21,640
Speaker 9: going to your house is going to burn. You're not

1542
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:24,320
Speaker 9: going to be able to get insurance. And it Stephanie,

1543
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:28,040
Speaker 9: I know one of you said this. One of the

1544
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:31,719
Speaker 9: big repercussions that's affecting me personally and I live away

1545
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:33,919
Speaker 9: from that is we will not be able to get insurance.

1546
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:38,400
Speaker 9: This will change. This has changed all insurance for people

1547
01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 9: to live. If you can see the brush from your

1548
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 9: house five miles away, you probably won't be able to

1549
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 9: get insurance.

1550
01:27:45,479 --> 01:27:45,959
Speaker 3: Wow.

1551
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 2: So, and by the way, I lived in a very simple,

1552
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:51,280
Speaker 2: little neighborhood it was you know, this is not a

1553
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 2: schmancy you know big there's always this like feeling that,

1554
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:57,879
Speaker 2: oh it's all huge mansions.

1555
01:27:57,880 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 3: Who cares.

1556
01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:01,559
Speaker 2: It's like I lived in a very simple, darling, beautiful

1557
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 2: little street and it was just like a suburban street.

1558
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:08,960
Speaker 2: There wasn't like excessive amounts of brush. It didn't seem

1559
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:11,240
Speaker 2: like this kind of a thing was even possible to

1560
01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 2: have happened there. But in our case, like you couldn't

1561
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:17,360
Speaker 2: get out because getting onto sunset, you know, it's gridlock

1562
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 2: on a good day, let alone when it's you know,

1563
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 2: sheer chaos. And people really were abandoning their cars. So

1564
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 2: when the car in front of you was abandoned, you

1565
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 2: can't get around it, as in my case, and then

1566
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:31,479
Speaker 2: the fire trucks can't get in. By the way, I

1567
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:33,599
Speaker 2: understand why they did that, because it was that scary

1568
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:36,479
Speaker 2: and people were running on foot. I think that's number

1569
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,920
Speaker 2: one I guess not to do that, right, because it

1570
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 2: really did disrupt the fire department from being able to

1571
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:43,240
Speaker 2: being able to get in and do.

1572
01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:45,040
Speaker 3: Their job effectively.

1573
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:48,360
Speaker 2: And and yeah, I keep guessing your car man, that

1574
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:52,599
Speaker 2: is the tick. People saws were breaking down because they

1575
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:53,679
Speaker 2: were running out of gas.

1576
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 9: So I know your show goes it all over and

1577
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,960
Speaker 9: it's not. We're all la center here and so we're

1578
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,000
Speaker 9: all stuck in our own little world. But I read

1579
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 9: after action report on a major event like this from

1580
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:11,000
Speaker 9: the nineteen sixties, and if nothing has changed, the worst

1581
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:14,720
Speaker 9: case scenario for southern California, the single worst case is

1582
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 9: a fire like that on a day like that in

1583
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:21,280
Speaker 9: the Hollywood Hills, because the roads are even narrower and

1584
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:24,599
Speaker 9: there's more people on top of the hills, and there's

1585
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 9: no way a fire truck can go up any of

1586
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:31,280
Speaker 9: those roads into the Hollywood Hills and with people being

1587
01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 9: able to come down, and so that is always been

1588
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:39,040
Speaker 9: considered the worst possible case. And I've heard so many

1589
01:29:39,560 --> 01:29:42,160
Speaker 9: fire chiefs talk about that that they just dread the

1590
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:45,720
Speaker 9: thought of it. Something like that even worse than a

1591
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:49,680
Speaker 9: Malibu scenario or the Palisades. So I'm not trying to

1592
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 9: spread doom and gloom, but well, no, it's true.

1593
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:54,680
Speaker 7: The roads are so narrow and when somebody's coming on

1594
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:56,639
Speaker 7: you have to kind of stop and pull.

1595
01:29:56,439 --> 01:29:58,560
Speaker 3: Over a little bit to let them go by.

1596
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:03,400
Speaker 9: Like how we're smoke while your panicky and flames coming

1597
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 9: up the side.

1598
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:06,479
Speaker 3: Of the road with the iron with people trying to

1599
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:07,480
Speaker 3: exit the neighborhood.

1600
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, oh my god, I know everybody in Iowa listening

1601
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 9: to you, says, who cares?

1602
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:16,599
Speaker 8: But well, I bet Iowa. Yeah, I bet everyone in

1603
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 8: Iowa does care. What is happening with your next book?

1604
01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I do?

1605
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 9: Oh so, I've written eight books and published sixth so far.

1606
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:31,240
Speaker 9: The seventh and eighth have not been physically published once

1607
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:36,760
Speaker 9: on cereal bombers, serial bombers. But the next one that

1608
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 9: I'm publishing, and I'm trying to publish it this month,

1609
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 9: actually is on a series of arsen fires. Nine hundred

1610
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:49,320
Speaker 9: arsen fires in the area in your Palm Springs. And

1611
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:53,080
Speaker 9: it's over. It's over a twenty five year period. Nine

1612
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:57,280
Speaker 9: hundred unsolved arsen fires by twelve different serial arsenists that

1613
01:30:57,320 --> 01:31:01,599
Speaker 9: I've identified so far, Oh my god. And half of

1614
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:03,800
Speaker 9: them work for public agencies. That's all I'm going to

1615
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:09,240
Speaker 9: say about that. And during that time, the worst part

1616
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:12,320
Speaker 9: of this story is during that time, eleven on duty

1617
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 9: firefighters died in fires set by these arsenals. Wow, and

1618
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 9: none of them have been solved.

1619
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 3: Nine hundred fires, Oh my goodness.

1620
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:26,040
Speaker 9: At least nine hundred that I've documented. There's probably more,

1621
01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:28,599
Speaker 9: but I can only find documentation on about nine hundred.

1622
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:32,120
Speaker 7: And the people responsible for these nine hundred fires are

1623
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 7: documented in your book. And it's spread across How many

1624
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:36,760
Speaker 7: serial arsenists.

1625
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:36,920
Speaker 3: Did you say?

1626
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:40,720
Speaker 9: At least twelve but probably four main ones, but at

1627
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:44,840
Speaker 9: least twelve. And they're not working together. That's all individual people, oh,

1628
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:50,559
Speaker 9: at different times. And I interviewed eighty old investigators from

1629
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 9: the state agencies and the Forest Service and from sheriff

1630
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 9: departments and stuff like that. And I got court transcripts

1631
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:00,720
Speaker 9: and the records from the state fire age. She's to

1632
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:03,559
Speaker 9: piece all this together. It's taken me probably ten years

1633
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:04,519
Speaker 9: to piece it all together.

1634
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 3: Wow.

1635
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:08,720
Speaker 9: And I think I've solved two of the eleven. That's

1636
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:13,559
Speaker 9: not nearly enough. And there's there's another major case in

1637
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 9: there that's going to get turned on its side, probably

1638
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:20,479
Speaker 9: because of it. But that's what I'm trying to publish now.

1639
01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:23,679
Speaker 9: It's true crime, and it's and I explained how this happened,

1640
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:25,040
Speaker 9: how we could miss this stuff.

1641
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:26,480
Speaker 3: I'm definitely.

1642
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:30,280
Speaker 9: So the flaws in our system that caused this to

1643
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:34,400
Speaker 9: be missed. So anyway, that's that's set to come out.

1644
01:32:34,479 --> 01:32:39,160
Speaker 9: I hope. I'm looking for a different publisher than I've

1645
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:41,200
Speaker 9: had before, so that's why it's a little slower than that.

1646
01:32:42,200 --> 01:32:42,800
Speaker 3: You'll have to.

1647
01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:45,559
Speaker 2: Come on and talk to a striker about this because

1648
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:48,120
Speaker 2: of that, I mean, edge of our seats already, we're

1649
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:50,120
Speaker 2: all leaning in again despite the fact that we're not

1650
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 2: wearing our rest.

1651
01:32:52,960 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 3: Listen.

1652
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,559
Speaker 2: I know it's this is a tough topic, but it's

1653
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:58,800
Speaker 2: an important one. And again, thank you for sharing all

1654
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:02,759
Speaker 2: of your insight and kind of bringing us into your world,

1655
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:06,320
Speaker 2: which seems like a very dangerous one, ed, So make

1656
01:33:06,360 --> 01:33:08,639
Speaker 2: sure you stay safe as you're making all of these

1657
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,920
Speaker 2: arson arrests throughout the country and keeping us all safe.

1658
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:15,280
Speaker 2: Very important stuff you do, so thank you for that,

1659
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:17,599
Speaker 2: and you'll definitely have to come back and join us

1660
01:33:17,640 --> 01:33:21,479
Speaker 2: when when it's time to promote the book. And for

1661
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 2: everyone listening, thank you for doing so. It's been a

1662
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 2: really it's been a really important night. And listen, tomorrow

1663
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:30,880
Speaker 2: is talk back Tuesday, so we will lighten the mood

1664
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:35,480
Speaker 2: and hear from you. So bring it, Bring all your opinions,

1665
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:36,280
Speaker 2: make them count.

1666
01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:37,800
Speaker 3: We love you.

1667
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight, Stay safe, Good night night,