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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to another new episode of Couch Talks.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kat and I'm the host. If your

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Speaker 1: new Couch Talks is the special bonus episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy, where I usually take questions that you guys

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Speaker 1: send into Catherine k A t h R y N

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Speaker 1: at You Need Therapy podcast dot com and I try

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Speaker 1: to answer them as best I can. So we're not

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Speaker 1: gonna do that today, but we are going to talk

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Speaker 1: about some very important things. And I want to start

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Speaker 1: this with as always, we say, this podcast is not therapy.

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Speaker 1: I can't give therapy over a podcast. I can't give

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Speaker 1: therapy over Instagram, I can't give therapy over any kind

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Speaker 1: of social media outlet. This is just a place where

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Speaker 1: we come and we hope to feel more connected um

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Speaker 1: less alone, and we gain some information and formation. Is

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Speaker 1: not therapy. Which the reason I took a little longer

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Speaker 1: to say that is because we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that idea today and before we get there. So before

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Speaker 1: we get there, I'm getting a little ahead of myself because,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, I have a little anxiety recording this episode.

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Speaker 1: So first I want to acknowledge I already have some

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Speaker 1: emails that you guys have sent in about the attachment

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Speaker 1: series that we have done. There's going to be one

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Speaker 1: more episode I do, and it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: Q and A with questions that you guys send in

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Speaker 1: about attachment that you got or came up with or

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Speaker 1: thought of as you were listening to the three past episodes.

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Speaker 1: In that I have also received some emails that you

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Speaker 1: are upset, and I say upset, but it doesn't have

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Speaker 1: this negative connotation. I just have gotten some emails and

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Speaker 1: some messages that you guys are a little sad and disappointed,

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Speaker 1: understandably so that I'm not going to do an episode

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Speaker 1: at this time on the fearful avoidant attachment style, which

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Speaker 1: I talked about this Monday on the Anxious Attachment at episode,

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Speaker 1: and I talked about why, and that also has to

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Speaker 1: do with what we're going to talk about today in general.

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Speaker 1: But my pledge to you is that I will work

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Speaker 1: on creating one. I just want you guys to have

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Speaker 1: the most accurate and the most current information, and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to just scrounge up the little information I

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Speaker 1: have and make gross assumptions to help answer some of

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Speaker 1: the questions and things that you want to know because

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Speaker 1: this is not my wheelhouse. I said in the last

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Speaker 1: episode that a lot of times in trainings that this

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Speaker 1: gets glossed over or it has in the past, and

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Speaker 1: there isn't a ton of information. There is information, but

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Speaker 1: there's not a ton that I have um a great

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Speaker 1: amount of access to or have had a great amount

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Speaker 1: of access to. So I'm going to work on it.

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Speaker 1: I'm either going to do some training myself, or I'm

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Speaker 1: going to elicit is that the right word, and list

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Speaker 1: in a listen and then listen. I'm going to enlist in.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know if that's right. I'm going guys.

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Speaker 1: What I'm trying to say is I'm either going to

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Speaker 1: figure this out and get some training myself, or I'm

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Speaker 1: going to find somebody who is an expert in this

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Speaker 1: to help give and offer the information that you guys

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Speaker 1: are desiring. So I want you to know that I

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Speaker 1: think that you guys deserve the most current and correct

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Speaker 1: and helpful information. I don't want to just throw something

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Speaker 1: out just because I can and you guys are interested

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Speaker 1: and I know people would download it. You deserve better

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Speaker 1: than that, and that the reason that I even created

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Speaker 1: this podcast is not to get a bunch of downloads,

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Speaker 1: but to help people have conversations that they want to

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Speaker 1: have in their lives with the people that they are

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Speaker 1: living their lives with. And this is a starting point

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Speaker 1: for that. Now, with that all being said, today's episode

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Speaker 1: is not the Q and al and attachment, and it's

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Speaker 1: not a Q and at all. I'm again going to

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Speaker 1: do that next week and I will start taking your

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Speaker 1: questions again the week after that for all general couch

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Speaker 1: shock stuff. Today we're gonna talking about something else. And

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Speaker 1: like I said, I'm probably talking really fast because I'm

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Speaker 1: a little anxious about this, but I really want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. So I realized the reason that I'm

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Speaker 1: a little anxious on about this is I realized I

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Speaker 1: might get some backlash on what I'm going to say,

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Speaker 1: and people might not agree with me, and they might

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Speaker 1: have some thoughts about me talking about this. And I

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Speaker 1: am okay with that because I know that I can't

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Speaker 1: please everybody, and if everybody agreed with us and everybody

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Speaker 1: liked us, then we wouldn't be being authentic and that

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Speaker 1: just wouldn't make sense. So we're gonna do it. Also,

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Speaker 1: open to feedback you guys have about this. Oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: always open to feedback because I am an expert in

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Speaker 1: some things, but also I'm a human and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to feel like I'm an authority figure in the

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Speaker 1: relationship we have via the podcast. I want to feel

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Speaker 1: more like a friend that helps you create those conversations

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Speaker 1: that you want to have in your life. So I

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Speaker 1: started reading this book, and when I say read, I

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Speaker 1: mean listen to on audible and it's called Cultish and

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Speaker 1: it's written by Amanda Montell and it's amazing. It's so great,

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Speaker 1: I want to get on the show asap. It's fascinating,

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Speaker 1: all of it. And it brought up a lot of

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Speaker 1: things in me, particularly around social media therapists. And you've

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Speaker 1: heard me before become very frustrated with social media therapists,

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Speaker 1: and I mean Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, all the things. And

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Speaker 1: you might be thinking, Cat, aren't you one of those?

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Speaker 1: And maybe I am. Maybe I fit in that category.

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Speaker 1: And so at first, when I was starting to get

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Speaker 1: frustrated with this stuff a while ago, I wasn't exactly

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Speaker 1: sure why, And so part of me was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: are you jealous? Are you jealous of these people who

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Speaker 1: have become these like influencers and now that their job

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Speaker 1: is to be an influencer and use their credentials and

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Speaker 1: their expertise in that way, and you are doing therapy,

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Speaker 1: and I laugh because, like, no, I actually really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: but spending the majority of my time doing real life therapy.

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Speaker 1: Like I like the process of doing therapy, I don't

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Speaker 1: just like the information that you learned becoming the therapist.

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Speaker 1: And so I enjoy that more than making content, which

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Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with content creators, there's nothing wrong with influencers.

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Speaker 1: I just would rather at this point in my life

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Speaker 1: at least be doing therapy as my main job, my

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Speaker 1: thing that takes a majority of my time. That could

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Speaker 1: change in the future, but that's right now how I feel.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh, it's not jealousy because I don't

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Speaker 1: want that. And so then I was like, oh, my gosh,

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Speaker 1: is it one of those things where it's like I

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Speaker 1: hate something that I see that I hate myself, Right,

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Speaker 1: So it's like looking at the mirror. And I thought

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Speaker 1: about this as well for a good amount of time.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing, because I don't have this feeling

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Speaker 1: towards people like well, towards all social media therapists, people,

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Speaker 1: especially people like I think of Burnet Brown like she's

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Speaker 1: never bothered me. I've never thought anything about stuff that

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Speaker 1: she's posted. And I mean I haven't read everything that

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Speaker 1: she's posted, so that could be part of it. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but there's a difference I think in like

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Speaker 1: people like Burnet Brown and then the people that I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of talking to or about right here. And I

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Speaker 1: also that I'm not saying on Burnet Brown, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not comparing myself to her because she's literally, I mean,

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Speaker 1: she's far more brilliant than I am, and I look

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Speaker 1: up to her a lot, and she's actually helped me

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Speaker 1: a lot and giving me a tons of information that

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Speaker 1: has been helpful in my life and my life as

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Speaker 1: a therapist. But Burnet, from what I can see, isn't

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Speaker 1: making TikTok's telling you that if you self isolate when

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Speaker 1: you're sad, it's because you grew up an emotionally abusive home.

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Speaker 1: And if you have a lot of energy and shake

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Speaker 1: your left foot when you're nervous, you have a d

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Speaker 1: h D. Like those things could all be true, but

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Speaker 1: they aren't necessarily true all the time, and they sometimes

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Speaker 1: might even be related. They could be true and not

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Speaker 1: related to each other. Burnet is offering real education backed

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Speaker 1: by research that has changed the way people show up

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Speaker 1: in a way that allows humans to be more human,

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Speaker 1: not more scared, not more blaming, not more whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: And if we remember, like, I don't know her real

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Speaker 1: motives for that first Ted talk that made her go viral,

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Speaker 1: But she wasn't out there like putting content out to

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Speaker 1: gain a following. She like did this research and then

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Speaker 1: presented it and then went viral, not thinking that that

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Speaker 1: was going to happen. So her goal wasn't to gain

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Speaker 1: a following. Her goal was to offer information and teach

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Speaker 1: people research that she had developed that has like changed

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Speaker 1: the way she thought. And it's groundbreaking research what she

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Speaker 1: has done. That's a big difference. The motive, the motive,

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Speaker 1: the motive, And I know, I can't judge a motive

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Speaker 1: by its cover, but sometimes you can kind of judge

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Speaker 1: a motify its cover, you know. She also, I will

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Speaker 1: say this, Bernie Brown really really really knows what she's

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Speaker 1: talking about. She's a lot of times presenting on research

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Speaker 1: she has created and done. She's not like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: read this book and I'm expert on this. No, it's

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Speaker 1: like she wrote the book, so she is the expert

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Speaker 1: on it, and she wrote the book based off the

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Speaker 1: research that she did herself, not saying that to write

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Speaker 1: a book you have to do your own research. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have to do research, but you don't have to

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Speaker 1: create your own experiment. I feel like I have to

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Speaker 1: give a caveat with everything because this is all just

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Speaker 1: very gray, and uh, how about we just continue the

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Speaker 1: conversation with that in the back of our heads, like

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Speaker 1: this is all very gray. What I'm saying isn't black

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Speaker 1: or white. So I hope to function more in the

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Speaker 1: way that Berne does. And to be very honest, I

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Speaker 1: created this podcast, I said it earlier to help people

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Speaker 1: have conversations in real life that I have all the

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Speaker 1: time that I've changed my life for the better, and

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Speaker 1: I have these conversations because they're normal to me because

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Speaker 1: I'm a therapist, and I want that to be more

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Speaker 1: normal in the world. I want more people to have

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Speaker 1: access to the information because therapy is expensive. The thing

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Speaker 1: is like a lot of what we're talking about, especially attachment,

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Speaker 1: nobody would think to think about it. So I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: I want there to be a way for people to

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Speaker 1: easily access this information that they would never think to

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Speaker 1: think about, and then that allows them to better their

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Speaker 1: lives in that way. I also, I mean you clearly

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Speaker 1: know this from the Fearful Avoided episode is I don't

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Speaker 1: talk about things if I don't know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: I'm limited. And again, I don't want to look like

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Speaker 1: an authority figure. I want to operate as friend. I

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Speaker 1: also don't give advice, and well, I try my best,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes I might throw out a piece, but like

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Speaker 1: the point of this podcast isn't to tell you what

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Speaker 1: to do. You know, I might give advice if somebody's like,

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Speaker 1: what can I do to help approach a friend who

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Speaker 1: I think is struggling with a needing disorder? I might

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Speaker 1: give some tips on that. But when you guys send

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Speaker 1: in questions, a lot of times I'm asking questions back

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Speaker 1: to you because I don't know what's best for you

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Speaker 1: in your life, and there's too many factors. And that's

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Speaker 1: why it's even hard to answer those questions of like

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Speaker 1: how do I approach my friend because there's so many

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Speaker 1: factors that might change the way that I would do

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Speaker 1: that based on those factors. A therapist job isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: to give advice. So if you ever see a therapist

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Speaker 1: on social media that's like telling you what to do

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Speaker 1: all the time. Red flag. That's not what we're trained

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Speaker 1: to do. We aren't like the experts at like how

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Speaker 1: to live life. We just know how relationships and connection

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Speaker 1: in the mind works a little differently than most people. Again,

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Speaker 1: there are so many factors that go into people's mental

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Speaker 1: health diagnosis and treatment that I can't say blank means

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Speaker 1: blank and you need blank, because that could be one

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Speaker 1: million different variations. There's a reason I think now looking back,

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Speaker 1: that licensure exams for therapists they're so difficult and they're

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Speaker 1: so hard and scary because there aren't black and white answers.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time. It's just a lot of gray,

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Speaker 1: and like you're trying to figure out which gray is

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Speaker 1: better than the other gray. Like there's best case scenarios,

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Speaker 1: but there's not like this is always this, this is

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Speaker 1: always this. You can't have a doctor that just is

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Speaker 1: telling you you should have take this medication because you

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Speaker 1: have this one symptom. Well, no, you could take a

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Speaker 1: lot of different medications, a combination of medications, different amounts

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Speaker 1: of different medications, and we can't just say the same

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Speaker 1: for everybody because we have different makeups, environments, all the things.

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Speaker 1: You guys have heard me talk about this before, so

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Speaker 1: you might be like, Okay, we know, we know why

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Speaker 1: you get frustrated with this. People over generalized, They spread misinformation,

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Speaker 1: people exploit information, and so sometimes I get like almost

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm a broken record, And I think, to myself,

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Speaker 1: am I being dramatic? Cat? What do you need to

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Speaker 1: do to like cope with social media self help? And

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Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons that I have never

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Speaker 1: fully felt like rested any time that I've talked about

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Speaker 1: this is because it always just felt like I'm alone

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Speaker 1: in this frustration. So I just feel like I haven't

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Speaker 1: been having this conversation with people who feel the same way.

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Speaker 1: I've just been having this conversation at people. I like,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I want to protect my listeners, I

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Speaker 1: want to protect my clients, I want to protect my friends.

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Speaker 1: I want to warn people, But I don't have anybody

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Speaker 1: like warning me or warning with me until today today,

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Speaker 1: going back to this cult book, the author Amanda Montell

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Speaker 1: posted this article and she was quoted in it was

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Speaker 1: by The New York times, I'm gonna link it in

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Speaker 1: the show notes and it was so helpful. And she

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Speaker 1: also released an episode. She has a podcast called Sounds

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Speaker 1: Like a Cult. She actually released I haven't finished it,

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Speaker 1: but she released an episode about social media therapists. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, somebody else is talking about this.

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Speaker 1: Somebody else is frustrated with this, somebody else is scared

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Speaker 1: of this um, somebody else is wondering if if this

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Speaker 1: is creating more harm than good. And so I want

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Speaker 1: to quote a little bit from the article. And then again,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna put in the show notes so you guys

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Speaker 1: can read the whole thing yourselves. I'm starting in the

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Speaker 1: middle of this article, so I want you guys to

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Speaker 1: read the whole thing if you're listening to this episode.

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Speaker 1: So the article says, I had someone tell me the

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Speaker 1: other day that the checkout person at Trader Joe's was

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Speaker 1: love bombing them, said Amanda Montell, a language writer and

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Speaker 1: author of the book Cultish, and like, no, that's not

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Speaker 1: love bombing. The phrase semantic creep has been used to

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Speaker 1: describe how the meaning of words changes over time. What

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Speaker 1: we're seeing today. According to the psychologist Nick Haslum, a

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Speaker 1: professor at the University of Melbourne, could be called trauma

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Speaker 1: creep when the language of the clinical or at least

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Speaker 1: the clinical adjacent, is used to refer to an increasingly

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Speaker 1: expansive set of everyday experiences. Beneath our collective embrace of

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Speaker 1: such language, Mr Hassm argues is in fact a better

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Speaker 1: understanding and in turn sensitivity to the psychological aspects of harm, which,

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Speaker 1: to be clear, can be a good thing. We're calling

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Speaker 1: out bad behavior that was previously tolerated, identifying harm that

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Speaker 1: was previously ignored, he said. But as words gain useful

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Speaker 1: new meanings over time, they also can lose precision. Gaslighting

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Speaker 1: is now thrown out anytime someone's perception of something is challenged,

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Speaker 1: said Chantel Gabrielle Bugs, a sociologist at Florida State University.

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Speaker 1: So right here in this article to talking about how

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Speaker 1: we're taking these words and we're using them and we're

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Speaker 1: over using them and they're actually losing their actual meaning.

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Speaker 1: And then in we're putting meaning to things that don't

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Speaker 1: actually mean that. And a lot of this is because

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Speaker 1: of TikTok and Instagram and are easy access to it,

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Speaker 1: and how people are grabbing something I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: always in an ill intentioned way, right, Like, a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is to help people call out things or

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Speaker 1: talk about things that previously weren't talked about are called out.

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Speaker 1: But here's the problem. Here's another part from the article.

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Speaker 1: We know at this point that algorithms reward outrage and

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Speaker 1: public shaming online, and that, as the Yale psychologist Molly

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Speaker 1: Crockett explained, those algorithms can't distinguish between language that is

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Speaker 1: proportionate or disproportionate to the original transgression. We also know

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Speaker 1: that victims of wrongdoing tend to be perceived as more

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Speaker 1: moral and virtuous than others, and that using medical language

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Speaker 1: tends to give a speaker authority, each of which are

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Speaker 1: likely to result in more positive feedback. It's not a

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Speaker 1: huge leap, then, to imagine that deploying the language of

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Speaker 1: trauma or of harm, or of even personal struggle carries

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Speaker 1: cultural capital. There's an economy and knowing that people will

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Speaker 1: have a highly emotional outsize response, says Mrs Bugs, because

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Speaker 1: they can monetize clicks, they can monetize followers. There's cloud

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Speaker 1: in it that is really scary to me. And you know,

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Speaker 1: what if I'm doing this. I want to know that

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this too. We're becoming these like social media

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Speaker 1: phased humans that are then taking information that was at

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Speaker 1: once correct, like this information Burnet Browns. This information that

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Speaker 1: is correct, we're taking it and we're spinning it in

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Speaker 1: a way that is going to get us followers, clicks,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff to gain a personal gain rather than

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Speaker 1: help the collective good of the you know, humanity. And

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Speaker 1: that's scary to me. The issues. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: have credentials to say something that creates noise on social media.

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Speaker 1: We just have to, like they said in this article,

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Speaker 1: using certain language. If we use certain language and then

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Speaker 1: add credentials on top of it, heck, yeah, we want help,

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Speaker 1: I think is one thing that I know. Humans want help.

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Speaker 1: We want to be helped, We want connection, we want

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Speaker 1: to feel less alone. We also want attention. But at

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Speaker 1: what cost? I see over and over professionals using their

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Speaker 1: credentials as a marketing tool to gain money, not to

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Speaker 1: help people. And I think that's where I get really

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Speaker 1: sad and scared. And you know, there's an argument that

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Speaker 1: they deserve to have a career and make money, but

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Speaker 1: we're not selling socks with like uplifting messages or like

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Speaker 1: phone cases with cute quotes on them. We're not doing that.

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Speaker 1: We're selling information that shapes how people think. And you

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Speaker 1: can just about make anything believable. If the end goal

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Speaker 1: is promised to provide things mentioned above, be less alone

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Speaker 1: and connection will want to believe that what you're trying

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Speaker 1: to sell me is true. And it sucks. I think

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Speaker 1: it sucks, and I don't know that there's a solution

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Speaker 1: other than continue to talk about it. But I am

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Speaker 1: very grateful that there are other people out here talking

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Speaker 1: about it. I can no longer count the amount of

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Speaker 1: memes and videos I get sent asking if this is true,

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Speaker 1: and I get them sent by clients, I get them

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Speaker 1: sent by friends, and get them sent by literally anybody

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Speaker 1: who has any kind of way of sending me anything.

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Speaker 1: And the shitty thing is sometimes they're true, sometimes they're

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Speaker 1: not true, and sometimes they could be true. Like it's

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Speaker 1: not black and white there either. So it's not all

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Speaker 1: of this is bad or wrong. It's not all this

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Speaker 1: is bad or good. It's some of it is and

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Speaker 1: some of it isn't. When Nabi Hasayed came on the

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Speaker 1: podcast over the summer, we talked a little bit about this,

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Speaker 1: and she mentioned there's a difference in information and knowledge,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is really important. There's a reason

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Speaker 1: that schools taught, schools teach currently in certain ways, like

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Speaker 1: you learn the letters of the alphabet before you learn

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Speaker 1: to read, you learn this before you learn that, and

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Speaker 1: it's because prior knowledge helps us understand future knowledge. TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Stuff is just thrown around, like what we'll get the

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Speaker 1: biggest reaction. So I'm giving you information that might be

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Speaker 1: taught in the third level class, but you're just getting

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Speaker 1: it for you even know what therapy is. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like trying to learn calculus before you take pre algebra,

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Speaker 1: or taking algebra too before you take pre algebra. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't make sense and you're confused. The information might not

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Speaker 1: be wrong, but you don't know how to make sense

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Speaker 1: of it. So I think there's a lot of power

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Speaker 1: and like, is the general public equips to just handle

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Speaker 1: these things that we're throwing out And I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I have the answer, but I think it's something

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Speaker 1: we should start thinking about and talking about. And I'm

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Speaker 1: even thinking about it as I'm just did a series

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Speaker 1: on educating people about attachment and it's like now, I

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Speaker 1: think that you guys can handle that. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: telling you guys, this always means this. It's like this

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Speaker 1: generally means this, and a lot of times this could

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Speaker 1: mean this. But I think in the closing of this,

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Speaker 1: I want you guys to be like cautiously optimistic. You

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Speaker 1: know about the things that you're seeing on the Internet

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Speaker 1: and the things that even I'm saying. What I'm saying

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Speaker 1: isn't gold because as I learned new and information, I

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Speaker 1: might shift and change, and my thoughts might shift and change.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a different therapist now than I was when

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Speaker 1: I started. I've learned more stuff and different things have

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Speaker 1: made more sense. I operate differently, So we can go

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Speaker 1: into life being cautiously optimistic. Maybe we can have some

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Speaker 1: armor to some of this stuff that's being used to

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Speaker 1: like create clickbait and monetize us and all of that

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Speaker 1: rather than really help us. I will again include the

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Speaker 1: article in the show notes. You guys can read that

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Speaker 1: whole thing, and I guess maybe my new tagline will

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Speaker 1: be take everything with a great assault anyway. All right,

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Speaker 1: this is getting far longer than I expected it too,

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Speaker 1: so hopefully we can talk about this more um, and

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Speaker 1: I really want to get Amanda on the podcast because

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Speaker 1: she seems like a very intelligent human that I would

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Speaker 1: like to talk to. In the meantime, you can get

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Speaker 1: her book, could tish. I have it on audible and

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Speaker 1: you can probably just ordered on Amazon as well. I

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Speaker 1: hope you guys have the day you need to have

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Speaker 1: and as always, if you have questions, comments, thoughts, send

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Speaker 1: them to Calth through an at You Need Therapy podcast

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Speaker 1: dot com.