1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling. 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries. 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: This is buried bones. Hey, Paul, we had a humdinger 12 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: of a story of last week, didn't we have this 13 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: serial killer? 14 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: Yeah? You know that. 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 2: That was a fascinating episode for me, you know, in 16 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: terms of we've got a guy out in la in 17 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty seven? 18 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 3: Is that right? 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: It's nineteen fifty seven, yeah, but we're pouring into nineteen 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: fifty eight now, unfortunately, So tell me what you remember, 21 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: because I had a couple of people message me and say, 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: I really like when Paul does a recap. So let's 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: give the listeners what they want. I'm going to make you. 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: We're going to see how closely you listened to me 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: last week. 26 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: Well, I do have my crib notes that I kept 27 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: from you telling me the story, So I do have 28 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: a cheat sheet. But I don't know if I can 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: weave it as eloquently as you would, but I will. 30 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 3: Go ahead and give it a shot. 31 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: Sure you can. 32 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: In August of nineteen fifty seven, nineteen year old Judy, 33 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: who is a model. She's a strange from her husband 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: going through a divorce, has a fourteen month old daughter 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: that she's in a custody to dispute with with her 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: strange husband. She needs money. For Judy, who's a model, 37 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 2: the way to make money is to model, and so 38 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: she ends up being picked up by a person who 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: claims to be a photographer and he utilizes the name 40 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: Johnny Glenn, and a roommate is able to describe Johnny 41 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: as being five to nine hundred and fifty pounds, all 42 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: of complected, and he's wearing horned rimmed glasses. She doesn't 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: come home after being picked up, and roommate gets scared 44 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: reports him missing. Law enforcement isn't able to make much 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: progress in the investigation, and five months later, some kids 46 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 2: find some skeletal remains limited skeletal remains basically forearm, wrist, 47 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: and hands from a single body. Months go by, and 48 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: then now there is another woman. Her name is Shirley. 49 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: She's twenty four years old, she's also divorced, has two kids. 50 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 3: And she goes out on a date. 51 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: That is set up through this Lonely Hearts club and 52 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: she's picked up by a man who goes by the 53 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: name of George Williams. And George had actually dated another 54 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: woman from this Lonely Hearts club about two weeks prior, 55 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: and that woman got home fine, but Shirley never comes home, 56 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 2: nor does she make it to the dance that George 57 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: was supposed to take her to. And we actually have 58 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: two different descriptions of this man the woman that he 59 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: dated two weeks prior, as well as the description of 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: the man from Shirley's mom who was home and she 61 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: got picked up by George. And these descriptions are somewhat varied, 62 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: but as I talked about in the first episode, I 63 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: think they fall within you know, the general variables that 64 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: you get from different witnesses describing the same man. And 65 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: you showed me images of two composites, and quite frankly, 66 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: to my eyes, those two composits look like the same man. 67 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: And we know we have a serial killer in this case. 68 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: And at this point I think you're going to start 69 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: talking to me about more of the investigation and maybe 70 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 2: more victims. 71 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: You nailed it, got everything right. I was waiting to 72 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: see if you were going to miss something up, and 73 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: you didn't. 74 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: I passed the test. 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: Your notes are great. I mean, I know, I see 76 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: you scribbling all the time, and sometimes I wonder if 77 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: he's doing like a cartoon sketch or something. I'm talking. Okay. 78 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: We continued to be in LA, which now makes me 79 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: scared to be in LA in general, because women keep 80 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: going missing. And you know, as you said, we're still 81 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: looking for Ruth and Shirley. We still have not identified 82 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: those bones. And about a year to the day when 83 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: Judy has gone missing, and this is four months after 84 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: Shirley has gone missing, a landlord at at LA boarding 85 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: house is very concerned about one of his tenants. It 86 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: is July twenty seventh, and now we're in nineteen fifty eight, 87 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: and this is a woman named Ruth Mercado. She's a model, 88 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: just like Judy and she had just turned twenty four 89 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: three days earlier. So all of these women are in 90 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: the same age range and sort of physical attributes. The 91 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: landlord is concerned because he hasn't seen Ruth in four days, 92 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: and he finally decides to go in and check on 93 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: her when he goes into the room. So this is 94 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: a boarding house, This isn't even a formal apartment. She 95 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: isn't there, but she has a couple of pets. There's 96 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: a small dog and two parakeets, and they are all 97 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: in distress. They haven't been fed or given water in 98 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: four days. It sounds like the landlord calls the police 99 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: about Ruth's disappearance. Talk to me just about that scene 100 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: in general. So we don't know yet if Ruth had 101 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: been taken from this boarding house or you know, if 102 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: she met somebody out, but she clearly, whatever happened, did 103 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: not intend to leave her animal behind. 104 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: Right, And I think that that's the critical factor there, 105 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: because you know, Ruth, being twenty four years old, she's 106 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: an adult. 107 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 3: She can go off on her own. 108 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 2: I can't imagine with a boarding house if she had 109 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 2: any reporting requirements back to the landlord that would cause 110 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: him to end up reporting her missing. But the observation 111 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: that she obviously hasn't been taking care of her pets, 112 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: you know, that's that's the red flag in this scenario. 113 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 2: So now law enforcement is going to respond and it's 114 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: having to now reconstruct what happened. You know, is there 115 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: any evidence within this room of violence? Is there evidence 116 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: of a struggle? If those are absent, then it's also okay, 117 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: So who last saw Ruth? 118 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: Where was she last going? 119 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: If she left voluntarily, is there any indisha, you know, 120 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: any writings. 121 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: Let's say she took. 122 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: A you know, back in nineteen fifty seven, a landline 123 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: phone call and on a notepad wrote down a name 124 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: and a number or address. You know, that's information that 125 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: the investigators are going to gobble up and now go 126 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: track that person or those persons down. They have to 127 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: really spend a lot of time reconstructing Ruth's life in 128 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: the last few days before she disappeared. 129 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: And I think they have no information Paul essentially about Ruth. 130 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: That's who we had the least amount of information about. 131 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: Right now, let me tell you what the police say 132 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: when the landlord calls and says, listen, I've had this tenant, 133 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: I haven't seen her in four days, and now we've 134 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: got these animals that clearly have not been fed or 135 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: watered in four days. The police show up and they 136 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: don't see anything really amiss. It doesn't sound like there's 137 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: even fourth century into the apartment. Nothing has been turned over, 138 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: doesn't look like anything has been taken. But they do 139 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: look around the apartment and they find nude photos of Ruth. 140 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: It sounds like she was a burlessed type dancer. And 141 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: even though the media pick up on this and the 142 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: police say they're investigating, I just don't get the sense 143 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: that it's with the same level of interest and intensity 144 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: as with Judy and Shirley. It sounds like when they 145 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: saw those nude photos of her and sort of a 146 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: burlesque type show, the interest from both the police and 147 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: the media went down quite a bit and they couldn't 148 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: connect her. They didn't even think about connecting her with 149 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: these other two missing women. 150 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, from that era, I can see that happening. 151 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: In essence, law enforcement very rapidly moved off of what 152 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: they would classify what we really do classify as high 153 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: risk victims. Back in the day, the mindset was we 154 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: need to spend our resources elsewhere, and it's just such 155 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: an unfortunate thing that that's what happens. I think, you know, immediately, 156 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: of course, as we're talking about these victims, for a 157 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: proper investigation, you're trying to track down or who knew Ruth. 158 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: You know, did anybody within the boarding house know her? 159 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: Did she have any friends? You know, what did she 160 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: tell these people that she's interacting with the fact that 161 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: she is also a model, you know, did she have 162 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 2: any jobs? The victimology is huge, you know, and so 163 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: a proper investigation would have been included all that. But 164 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: it sounds like, oh, she's into this burlesque type of 165 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: aspect and we're just going to move on. 166 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the only case, and I'm you know, 167 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell you these are all connected. Of course, this 168 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: is the only case we have where a man has 169 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: not been seen. You know. In this case, nobody saw 170 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: a man come to her apartment. Nobody remembers her saying 171 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: I've got a photography gig. No one knows, you know, 172 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: if she left with the intention of coming back. She 173 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: literally vanished and left these animals that she loved behind, 174 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: and the police didn't seem particularly motivated, and you know, 175 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: they're not making any headway in the meantime with Judy 176 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: and with Shirley. You know, I'm sure they suspect that 177 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: Judy is the person who was found the bones, you know, 178 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: that were found by the two little boys. But there 179 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: were other missing women. So it's it's still a big 180 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: mystery for them, you. 181 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: Know, And I think that that, you know, that's just 182 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 2: something I want to point out is we are also 183 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: talking Los Angeles, and so right now we have focused 184 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: in on these these three women that have gone missing. 185 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 2: Imagine the number of missing persons even in nineteen fifty 186 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 2: seven in a city the size of Los Angeles. You know, 187 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: law enforcement, they're they're looking at these cases. Each one 188 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 2: of them are individually needles in this massive haystack of caseload. So, 189 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 2: you know, I think with Ruth, I mean the fact that, 190 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: like in the prior to cases, there was Judy and 191 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 2: Shirley had family that were engaged at certain levels. Right 192 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: with Ruth, right now, it doesn't sound like there's any family. 193 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: There's nobody that's going, hey, there's something really wrong here. 194 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: It's a landlord of a boarding home. 195 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: Well, we are having, you know a problem connecting everything. 196 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: We're having a problem finding you know, these two, well, 197 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: now three women. I feel for the police in nineteen 198 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: fifty seven, fifty eight, with the exception of not investigating 199 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: Ruth's case right enough. We now have a fourth victim, 200 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: and I have a lot of detail because thank god, 201 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: this one is a survivor and a hero as far 202 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: as I'm concerned. And you're going to find out why, 203 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: because this is an amazing story. So you know, I 204 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: was going to sort of like lead up to the 205 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: fact that this woman made it out alive, but there's 206 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: so much detail you would have suspected that, and you 207 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: would have said, okay, well, obviously she survived. When I 208 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: watched Zodiac with one of my girls, she said, oh 209 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: my gosh, are they both And I had not really 210 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: told her about the story, and we were, you know, 211 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: watching them the first couple, and she said, are they 212 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: both gonna die? And I said, no, I don't think so. 213 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: And she said why And I said, well, this is 214 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: a lot of detail. So if neither of them survived, 215 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: how would we have known this. There's no CCTV. How 216 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: would we have known this had happened unless either the 217 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: killer said something or somebody survived, and then, of course 218 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: we knew with the zodiac in the first couple somebody survived. 219 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: So I like being mysterious, but I want to be 220 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: realistic at the. 221 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: Same time, When does this case happen? How much longer 222 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: after Ruth? 223 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: Three months later after Ruth? So now we are a 224 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: year and a couple of months after our first case, 225 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: which was Judy. So this is October twenty seventh, nineteen 226 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: fifty eight. This is a twenty eight year old woman. 227 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: Her name is Lorraine Vijel, and she is This is 228 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: a familiar story. This is her very first modeling gig 229 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: and she's part of a small agency that she's just 230 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: started working with. The agency contacts her and says, there's 231 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: a photographer who's going to pick her up at the house. 232 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: Now I don't know if this is what happened with 233 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: Judy or well, it wouldn't have been Sureley. It would 234 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: have been Judy with the first modeling gig, and we 235 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: don't know if that's what happened with Ruth. But this 236 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: is the first time I've heard of an agency being involved. 237 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: It looks like he contacted an agency and said I 238 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: need a photographer. I need a model for a shoot, 239 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: and they hooked him up with Lorraine. So this guy 240 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: shows up. His name is Frank Johnson. You know, now 241 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: we've got again, you know, a series of disappearances involving 242 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: a photographer. So Lorraine says they're supposed to go to 243 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: his studio that Lorraine is familiar with and take pictures. 244 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: But when she gets in the car and they start driving, 245 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: he doesn't go toward Hollywood. She's trying to direct him 246 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: toward the studio because she's worked at the studio before, 247 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: and she asked, Frank, why aren't you going in the 248 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: right direction, and he said, well, I want to use 249 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: my home studio instead. She says she knew something was 250 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: really wrong when he gets on the Santa Ana Freeway. 251 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: He starts driving very fast. He stops at a desolate 252 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: exit and pulls over. He says, I've got a flat tire. 253 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: But then he pulls out a gun. He pulls out 254 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: a piss so he says, do what I tell you 255 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: to do, and you're not going to get hurt, and 256 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: he pulls out a piece of rope to tie her 257 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: hands together. She fights, and she grabs the gun. They 258 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: start struggling in the front seat. The gun goes off 259 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: and the bullet grazes Lorraine's thigh. She opens a passenger 260 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: drawer and they both fall out onto the ground. On 261 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: this desolate exit stop, they are in sight of passing cars, 262 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: but nobody stops. They're driving by, and there's like in 263 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: a hand in hand battle on the ground over this gun, 264 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: and nobody is stopping along this highway. She bites his 265 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: hand that is holding the gun. He lets the gun go, 266 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: she grabs it and she holds him at gunpoint, and 267 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: eventually highway patrolmencome. 268 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: Wow. 269 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean, Lorraine blood coming down, her leg, scraped up, 270 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: scared to death, and is holding this guy ready to 271 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: blow his brains out until the highway patrol shows up. 272 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: Because I'm sure at that point people are passing by 273 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: and seeing this woman holding a gun on a guy 274 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: on the ground. And now finally we get the police 275 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: to show up. What do you think about that? I mean, 276 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: what a story. 277 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: That's actually amazing. I'm surprised she didn't kill them, almost 278 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: like an act of passion. She's got to be so 279 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: scared and so enraged at the same time. You know, 280 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: now she's got the upper hand with the firearm, Yeah, 281 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: in some ways, that speaks all of us. Speaks to 282 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: Lorraine having sort of a wherewithal of understanding the dire 283 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: circumstances she's in. And I always say, never let somebody 284 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: bind you. You fight at that moment, even if they've 285 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: got a gun on you, because if they're binding you, 286 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: then they are probably going to do horrific things to 287 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: you once they have you under complete physical control. You 288 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: can't fight back when you're bound. So the fact that 289 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: Lorraine engaged so early on that just speaks volumes to 290 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: the courage that she had in that very scary moment. 291 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: You didn't describe, I mean, you describe Lorraine as a model, 292 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: So I imagine she's probably the same stature as the 293 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: other gals you know in that five two five four. Yeah, 294 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: you had one hundred and ten hundred and thirty pound 295 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: type of range. So it sounds like she was able 296 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: to put up enough of a physical resistance against this guy. 297 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: You know, he's not somebody that's just just so monstrously 298 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: overpowering that she was able to, you know, get the 299 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,479 Speaker 2: gun away and hold him at gunpoint. 300 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: And does he just sit there? 301 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: I think he does. And I'm guessing people are starting 302 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: to pull over and at some point, you know, the 303 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: highway patrol come because people are shopping, and you know, 304 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: saying that he needs to come. I think he's just petrified. 305 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, And you're right, she's pissed. And he is 306 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: not a big guy. We've talked about that. He's five 307 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: nine and one hundred and fifty pounds, but that doesn't 308 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: mean anything. And you know, you and I have talked 309 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: about when we've talked about the Colonial Parkway killer. We 310 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: didn't do that as an official episode, but you know, 311 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: you and I have talked about these sort of people 312 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: who take over couples. I always think, how do you 313 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: have the balls to do that? One person controlling two people? 314 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: And you say, well, you know, when you have a 315 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: weapon and you're intimidating them, And he must have just 316 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: thought that this gun was going to be enough, and 317 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: she clearly had a fight or flight moment and overtook him, 318 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: which was great. 319 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and the likelihood is with the other victims, 320 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 2: you know, he probably pulled a gun on them, you know, 321 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: and was expecting the same type of compliance from Lorraine, 322 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: and she surprised him and he wasn't ready to handle 323 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 2: that in many ways this. I mean, yeah, there's no 324 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: question that Lorraine, you know this, she is a hero 325 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: in terms of the action she took. And I'm assuming 326 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: now this offender is taken into custody by CHP. 327 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: He is and I know that this seems like this 328 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: could be the end of the story. You know, I've 329 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: told you this is a serial killer. He is. We've 330 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: kind of gone through all the victims, but not quite. 331 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: There's more to this story. That is so in your wheelhouse. 332 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: There's you know, the criminal profiling part of it, and 333 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: then there's potentially other victims. So yes, Lorraine is holding 334 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: him with a gun to him, and the highway patrolman 335 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: take this guy and they turn him over to Orange 336 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Department, and they find out that his name 337 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: is Harvey Glatman, and I think, you yeah, so you're 338 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: shaking your nodding your head. So I was wondering if 339 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: this was somebody you had heard of before, because it's 340 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: California and it's you know, in this time period. I 341 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: know you're familiar with some cases, bigger cases in California. 342 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: Had you heard of him before, Harvey Glatman? 343 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 2: I had, of course, you know, the names of his 344 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: victims and some of the circumstances, the details that you're 345 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: providing on these cases didn't make me clue in or 346 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: this is this is Harvey Glatman. However, I am familiar 347 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 2: with him as a serial killer, you know, notably that 348 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 2: he did he was a photographer, and there's other serial 349 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 2: killers that I worked that did this same. 350 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 3: Type of ruse. 351 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, Glatman, I don't know if he 352 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: comes off as particularly charming, but he is definitely someone 353 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: that a lot of women thought, you know, had had 354 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: something to offer them, and he really drew them in. 355 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: He was thirty. He was actually a television repairman. You know. 356 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a little bit more about him. He's 357 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: an interesting character because he is questioned for four days 358 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: and by Thursday, October thirtieth, Harvey Glatman has admitted to 359 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: the murders of Judy and Shirley and Ruth. And I 360 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: don't get it. Why did he confess? 361 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: Well, he must know the gigs up. I mean, he's 362 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: caught red handed with Lorraine. 363 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: But they don't have proof of anything, Paul. I mean, 364 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: he could have just said listen, things got a little rough, 365 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: and you know, they're not connecting him to these other women. 366 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: I don't think. I think he is saying I did this, 367 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: and they're kind of going, what okay? 368 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 3: You know. 369 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: I think it really comes down to his you know, 370 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: inner motivations and if he is, if he is somebody 371 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: that is looking for attention, somebody like Dennis Raider BTK, 372 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: I could see where he would confess because he's going, yeah, 373 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: I did this, you know, I want the notoriety of 374 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: being this serial killer. 375 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 3: You know. 376 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 2: I also am wondering how the LA interrogation was back 377 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty seven. It probably wasn't a very cordial 378 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 2: or pleasant for him. 379 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: Little third degree, is what you mean? 380 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: I think, Well, I keep having flashes of that movie 381 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: La Confidential. 382 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 3: You know, for the cases. 383 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: It's awesome that he's saying he's admitting, but he also 384 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 2: the cases still need to be proved against him. 385 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 3: Is he providing details? 386 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: Is he able to lead investigators to the rest of 387 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: Judy's body? 388 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 3: You know? 389 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: Does he give the specifics on how he interacted with 390 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: each of these women on the nights that are the 391 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: days that he picked them up, and what did he 392 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 2: do and et cetera. So there's still a lot of 393 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 2: information that he has to provide up and beyond just 394 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 2: saying I did it. 395 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: I first want for us to go back to the 396 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: very famous dual sketches that we have, and let's compare 397 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: them to what Glatman looks like. Because I had been 398 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: on the bins and needles, I thought, well, are these 399 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: accurate or not? Because we in my packet they didn't 400 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: include an actual picture of Glatman, and so I did 401 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 1: my own little thingy where I put the sketches on 402 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: one side and him on the other. So what do 403 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: you think about this? 404 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 3: Wow? 405 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I am seeing you know, the two sketches 406 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: that you showed me the last time, and then seeing 407 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: Glatman on the right hand side. This is a headshot 408 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: of Glatman. It shows he's got his glasses on. And 409 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: side by side, these two composites are probably as good 410 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: of composites as I've ever seen, matching Glatman. The hairline 411 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 2: from the composites a spot on with Glatman's hair. The 412 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: length of his face is a little bit more squished 413 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: in than the composites. But the protruding ears, the prominent nose, 414 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: you know, the mouth, the eyes, you know everything about 415 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: the composites. I mean, these are good. They really do 416 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 2: look like Glatman. 417 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: Fantastic sketch artists, both of them, and fantastic witnesses. I mean, people, boy, 418 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: this is like for me textbook on how accurate things 419 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: can be. This is great. I wanted to get this 420 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: out of the way before we talk about Glatman and 421 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: what he says happened with all of this. So, as 422 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: I said, he eventually confessed. We don't know if this 423 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: was the act of the third degree, but you know, 424 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: they did get a confession out of him, So we 425 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: do know stuff about Glatman when he was a kid, 426 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: and I figure, let's get the stuff about the women 427 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: taken care of and then we can talk a little 428 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: bit about him because I know that we talk about 429 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: the myths behind serial killers and we'll see kind of 430 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: where he falls along those lines for you, all right, 431 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: sounds good. So Latman says that he strangled each one 432 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: of these women with the same piece of rope, and 433 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: that's something that they end up finding in his apartment. He, 434 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: as I said, is thirty. He was a television repairman. 435 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: And when he confesses, they say, where are they? We 436 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: found some bones and that's about it. We don't know 437 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: if Judy was that woman that we found. We don't 438 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: know where Shirley and we don't know where Ruth are. 439 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 1: And he said, well, let me illuminate a little bit 440 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: for you. 441 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: Here. 442 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: He takes them to a remote part of the Anza 443 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: Desert State Park in the Colorado Desert, not far from 444 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: San Diego, and that's where they find the remains of 445 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: two women because of, you know, the corner of San 446 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: Diego County coroner says that because of the decomposition and 447 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: the animal activity that he said, the bodies were a 448 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: little more than we're a little more than a bag 449 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: of bones. But they tentatively identified them as Ruth and Shirley. 450 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: And he said that from what Ladman had told them, 451 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 1: they can identify the bones found six months earlier by 452 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: those two boys, which we thought was Judy. So he 453 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: has said, you know, here are all three of them, 454 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: and took them directly to it. So that's proof positive, 455 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: I'm assuming right. 456 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, Now does he bring them to the rest 457 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 2: of Judy's remains. 458 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: That's not the impression I got. He said this is 459 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: where she was. I think they thought there was not 460 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: going to be anything left there. I'm assuming they combed 461 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: that area where her bones were found initially. So then 462 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: this is where things get difficult for me. I mean, 463 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: I have never seen these kinds of photos before. He 464 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: decided that he was going to photograph these women, basically 465 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: moments before he murdered them. So the newspapers inexplicably printed 466 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: these photos. It just makes me nauseous. And these are 467 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: not photos I'm going to put on social media. If 468 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,479 Speaker 1: listeners want to find them, they can, but I'm not 469 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: going to do it. It's as upsetting to me to 470 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: see them, almost more upsetting than to see the bodies 471 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: of women. Because there's especially one and I'm going to 472 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: show you now, there's one photo where a woman looks 473 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: absolutely terrified, and it's Judy. But we see all three 474 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: of them, so I'm going to show you what he did. 475 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: And they find these photos along with the rope in 476 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: his apartment. So the title of this is Madman's own 477 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: pictures of the girls he killed. So, Paul, the woman 478 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: on the upper left is Shirley, the woman on the 479 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: right is Judy, and the woman on the bottom is Ruth. 480 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: And they all appear to be alive right now, So. 481 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at these photos, which you know, again 482 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: for them to have been published in the newspaper is very, 483 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 2: very insensitive to the victims and the victims loved ones. 484 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: The horror of these photos. We're seeing these women in 485 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: the last moments of their life, and at least with 486 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: particularly with Judy, her sitting you know, in this chair 487 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 2: and she's got a gig, her hands are bound behind 488 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 2: her back, her her knees are bound. You can see 489 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 2: the fear in her eyes as she's looking kind of 490 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 2: up to her left, and that's probably where Glatman is 491 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 2: actually standing. And he's taking a photo using you know, 492 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 2: probably a cable attached to the camera on a tripods. 493 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 2: That's interesting that he's standing. He's not like standing there 494 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 2: with the camera and photographing her because I bet she's 495 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: she's engaged with where he's at. This photo of Judy, 496 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: of the three we talked about in the first episode, 497 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: those True Detective magazines, this is exactly the type a photo, 498 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 2: the type of imagery that's in the true detective magazines. 499 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 2: That's why these guys liked those magazines. Glatman is in 500 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: essence making his own imagery, yeah, purposefully with these women 501 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,959 Speaker 2: bound like this and with the fear on their faces, 502 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 2: because that's what he is getting off on. You know, 503 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: all of them are fully clothed at the time these 504 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 2: photos are taken, but they're all bound gagged. 505 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: I can see the one on the upper left. Surely 506 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: I had a hard time seeing it, but I can 507 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: definitely see a gag around her mouth. There's like a 508 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: shadow or something going on there. 509 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: She's outside, yeah, you know, Judy's the only one that's inside. 510 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 2: She's you know, sitting up in this chair. And then 511 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 2: you have Shirley and Ruth, who are laying mostly on 512 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: their back, you know, but bound identical manner, you know, 513 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: around the ankles, around the knees, hands behind their back, 514 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: the game eggs around their mouth. 515 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: And we know that Glatman. 516 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: After these photos sexually assaults them and then strangles them. 517 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: And it's very interesting behaviorally that he utilizes the same 518 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: length of rope as the murder weapon in all three cases. 519 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: So he's not tying a ligature around their neck and 520 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: leaving that on. He is manually strangling them utilizing this rope. 521 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: That's something that he just that's what he wants to do. 522 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: And the fact that he's keeping that rope is significant. 523 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 2: It's significant that he's keeping these photos, and he's keeping 524 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: the rope with the photos right and in his residence. Yep. 525 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: You know, so this is all part of you have 526 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 2: to ask anytime the offender does something that is not 527 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: needed to commit the crime, you have to go, well, 528 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: why is he doing that? Well, that's something significant to 529 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 2: the offender, and it's often insight to the offender's fantasy. 530 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: Glatman is a fantasy motivated offender. 531 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: And I know this won't surprise you, but they looked 532 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: in a toolbox in his apartment and found personal belongings 533 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: for all three women. You call those mementos, is that right? 534 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: Not trophies, mementos souvenirs. Souvenirs. 535 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: Okay, generally you could say it's sort of semantics. But 536 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: you know, within the behavioral analysis terminology, when offenders are 537 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: taking items in essence to help remember the crimes that 538 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: they committed, we utilize the term souvenir. And that's just 539 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 2: what he has done is and that is a very 540 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: very common thing that these guys do. 541 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: These photos which are terrifying to me. The police, when 542 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: they looked through his apartment found some of them pinned 543 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: to his wall. I mean, well, let me tell you 544 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: what he says happened. At this point, I don't see 545 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: a reason why not to believe him, because he really 546 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: is very straightforward about this. His intention was sexual assault, 547 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: he says, for all three women, but he didn't want 548 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: to be identified. And going through the Lonely Hearts Club, 549 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: I mean, of course would identify him, and going through 550 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: an agency photographer agency. It's just so interesting and maybe 551 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: as you learn a little bit more about him, you'll 552 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: understand going to the person's house, being able to be 553 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: identified by the mother and the sister, I mean, what 554 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: is he thinking. I don't understand why he says, well, 555 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,719 Speaker 1: I had to kill them, But he's allowed other people 556 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: like former dates to be able to identify him too. 557 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this is where I mean, he's pre 558 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: planning his crimes. Obviously, he is not a dumb offender 559 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: by any stretch of the imagination. But just because he's 560 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: reasonably intelligent doesn't mean he has a PhD in committing crimes. 561 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: And I mentioned, you know what stood out to me 562 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: is at this offender by going and picking up Judy 563 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 2: at her house, and by going and picking up Shirley 564 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: and interacting, you know, to at least he's seen by 565 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: Shirley's mom. He's elevating his risk. Why is he doing that. 566 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: He's not lurering these women to an isolated location that 567 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: a lot of guys will do because they don't want 568 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: to be seen. He's allowing himself to be seen. This 569 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 2: is where he's just not thinking things through at the 570 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: depth that maybe some other offenders would in order to 571 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 2: try to minimize the risk of them being caught. He's 572 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: obviously able to isolate these women and sexually assault and 573 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: kill them. He's successful at committing the crime, but he's 574 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: not being very diligent about covering all his tracks in 575 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: order to be as successful as a predator as he 576 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: could have been. 577 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you these details are something else, 578 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: and I think it speaks number one to the terror 579 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: that these women must have felt, and number two to 580 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,479 Speaker 1: his psychology. So tell me what do you think about this. 581 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: He picked up Judy, who is the first victim that 582 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: we know of. He picked up Judy. He brought her 583 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: back to his apartment rather than to some studio or 584 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: maybe he said we're gonna do this pin up shoot 585 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: at my apartment. He's actually assaulted her at gunpoint, and 586 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: then of course took photos of her bound and gagged. 587 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: We don't know which came first. Then he drove her 588 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: into the desert and had her get out of the car. Now, 589 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: normally I would not go into this much detail what 590 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: I'm getting ready to tell you, but I just wonder 591 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: what this says about him. At gunpoint, he told her 592 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: to kneel down, and he tied the rope around her 593 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: ankles and then around her neck and then strangled her 594 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: by pulling the rope tight. Why would he do that? 595 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: There's something that he wanted to do. Is that like 596 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: hog tying? It's not. 597 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: If I were to describe it just the way that 598 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: you said, I would say, yes, it is a form 599 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 2: of hogtying if it's just straight from the ankles to 600 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 2: the neck, Because I've seen an offender who's done some 601 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 2: more elaborate aspects, you know, in essence, where now the 602 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: victim is face down and ankles are bound, then that 603 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 2: same rope goes up around the neck, but it's done 604 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: in such a way to where the victims strangles themselves 605 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 2: because it's so tight. You know, their legs are now 606 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: pulling against the rope around their neck. Sounds like in 607 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: this case you still have this ankles to neck connection 608 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 2: from behind, but Glatman has to further tighten or utilize 609 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 2: a separate rope, which I think is the case as 610 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: the murder weapon. Now, this may be something he saw. 611 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: You know, these offenders visually will see things like in 612 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 2: the True Detect magazines and want to replicate what they've 613 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 2: seen or what they've read about. That could be something 614 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: that he is just trying to do because it was 615 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: fantasy material for him from something he's seen or read about. 616 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: Or it may be because Glatman is not a very 617 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 2: physically robust and maybe competent male, it may be a 618 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: mechanism of safety for him, so he knows that he 619 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 2: has absolute control over Judy, that she cannot fight back 620 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: because she is completely incapacitated. If that's the case, then 621 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: that would be more of what I would say an 622 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: mo type of characteristic of Glatman, because he's utilizing it 623 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: to accomplish the crime and lower the risk to himself 624 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: his own self preservation. 625 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 3: But if he's doing. 626 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 2: It because it's something he's seen that turned him on, 627 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: then that is fantasy that is a signature of. 628 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: His Well, then we changed locations a little bit, so 629 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: we now are going to talk about his second victim, 630 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: who is Surely, and this is the Lonely Hearts club 631 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: blind date. He picks her up and instead of going 632 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: to the stance, he drives her to Huntington Beach. Surely, 633 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: of course, is arguing with him and says take me home, 634 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 1: and he drove her out into the desert instead. They 635 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: waited in the car until the sun came up. 636 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 3: He needs light to take the photographs. 637 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: I get. 638 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, she refused to get out of the car and 639 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 1: he held her at gunpoint and made her get out 640 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: of the car. So she gets out of the car 641 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: and he binds her and sexual assaults her, and then 642 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: he makes her walk in the desert for hours before 643 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: he makes her lie on her stomach and he strangles her. 644 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: I mean, this is is this something he's replicating that 645 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: he saw or read again? 646 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 2: You know, it could be you know, I think Glatman 647 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: is taking you know, he's elevating his risk by driving 648 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: around with this woman that he's he's abducted, you know, 649 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 2: from Sun Valley, Huntington Beach all the way down to 650 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 2: San Diego County and then he then it sounds like 651 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 2: he makes her walk for hours down in the San 652 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 2: Diego County desert before she goes face down and he 653 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 2: strangles her from behind. From a behavioral side, you know, 654 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 2: some of these offenders want to watch the victim face 655 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: to face as they strangle. You know, they in essence, 656 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 2: they play god. They know they're the ones that are 657 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: controlling when the victim dies. They want to see the 658 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 2: victim's fear. They want to feel the victim struggle against them. Here, 659 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,959 Speaker 2: if he's strangling her from behind, it almost does sound 660 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 2: like he's eliminating her as a witness. The act of 661 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 2: killing isn't part of the fantasy. Potentially, in Shirley's case, 662 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 2: I can't eliminate the possibility that maybe he has seen 663 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: or been exposed to something where this is replicating a 664 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: fantasy story in his head. But he may just be 665 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 2: eliminating her as a witness, and he's utilizing the desert 666 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: and the distance that she ends up having to walk 667 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 2: as a way to further hide her body. 668 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: Well, the last woman who was Ruth, this is the 669 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: burlesque show woman. He tells the police that he actually 670 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: didn't want to kill Ruth, that she was the one 671 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: that he actually really liked. She's disgusting through a studio, 672 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: it sounds like, to try to photograph her, and she 673 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: wanted to cancel because she didn't feel well. He came 674 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: to her apartment anyway, and he forced his way in. 675 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: This is the boarding house, that's right, and repeatedly raped 676 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: her at gunpoint over the course of a night. I 677 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 1: don't know where other people are in this boarding house, 678 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: if it was deserted or people didn't hear. But he 679 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: made her put on a robe and walked to his 680 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: car the next day, and then he drove her to 681 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: the desert, took photos over clothed and unclothed, and then 682 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: killed her with the same length of rope. 683 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 2: And he's driving her all the way down to San 684 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: Diego County desert again. 685 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, unless he kills them somewhere else. I 686 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: haven't read this, and then puts the remains there. But 687 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: I have not read, you know, anything like that. 688 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 2: Well, this newspaper photograph of Ruth, it's showing her bound 689 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: and gagged, and the way that the caption reads is 690 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: she's on this blanket in the San Diego County desert 691 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 2: just before she was strangled. So he drove her alive 692 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 2: all the way down to San Diego County. So you see, 693 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 2: with Judy, she's found in the Hollywood Hills if I 694 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 2: remember right, right, h Yep, she's kind of kept in 695 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 2: the Los Angeles area versus Shirley and Ruth. He's driving 696 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 2: a distance south of Los Angeles to San Diego County 697 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 2: and purposely, I'm sure, choosing the desert. The desert is 698 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: not a kind place for bodies that are left on 699 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 2: the surface. 700 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: Well, after all of this, he is charged with Shirley 701 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: and Ruth's murders. I don't know why not Judy, but 702 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 1: you know they paired them together. And he pleads guilty 703 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: and he's sentenced to the gas chamber. But we have 704 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: a potential boulder, what they call the boulder, Jane, do 705 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: we might have another victim, So tell me what you 706 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: think about this. Okay, So he has been sentenced, he 707 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: is not dead yet. They are finding photos of women 708 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: from Colorado also, he had been in Colorado similarly bound 709 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: in gagged. They asked Latman if all of these women 710 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: are still alive, and he says, unless they've been run over, 711 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: and he says, I didn't kill anybody else. But the 712 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: wording raises eyebrows because there's a cold case in Boulder 713 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: that they've been trying to solve. No one really had 714 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: been making this connection very well. But there was a 715 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: woman whose body was found in the Boulder Canyon in Boulder, 716 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: Colorado in nineteen fifty four, so three or four years earlier. 717 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: They think that she might have been run over, And 718 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: for more than fifty years since she has been called 719 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: Jane Doe, the Battered Blonde of Boulder Canyon. And in 720 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine they identified her as a woman 721 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: named Dorothy Gay Howard through DNA, and he was in 722 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: Denver at the time, and that she had been visiting 723 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,240 Speaker 1: around this exact same time her aunt who was in Denver, 724 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: and that they think that there must have been a connection, 725 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: but that was that the police are never really able 726 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: to make that connection. It doesn't seem like strong enough, 727 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: but it could be a coincidence. I don't know, what 728 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: do you think? 729 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 2: Well, do you know how Dorothy? What was she left 730 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,879 Speaker 2: on the road? How does she get run over? 731 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: Let me give you the circumstances here. So she was 732 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: only identified because of her twenty four year old grand 733 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: niece who starts researching this. I told you the identification 734 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: happened in two thousand and nine, and that's how we 735 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: know all of these details. So she had been eighteen, 736 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: and she had been in Denver visiting we think her aunt. 737 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: That's where Glatman was at the time, and he was 738 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: known to police at that time. Dorothy was originally from Arizona, 739 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: and she was married to a guy who her family 740 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: didn't approve of, and she got divorced pretty quickly. She 741 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: had been married to another older man, but it seems 742 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: like she left him and went to Denver in this time. 743 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty four, her body was found in April 744 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: by a creek and Boulder Canyon by two University of 745 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: Colorado students. No clothes, no jewelry, badly beaten. There had 746 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: been animal activity, so her face was unrecognizable, but she 747 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: did have perfect teeth, which I thought, that's weird, But 748 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: that meant apparently she couldn't be identified by dental records. 749 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: They didn't have any dental records that they could figure out. 750 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: Does that make sense to you From the dental side, 751 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 2: you know, oftentimes what you see is you have the 752 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 2: dentists who they will you know, when you have a 753 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 2: deceased body that in which you have the intact teeth, 754 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 2: the anthropologists that are forensical identologists will come in and chart, 755 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, the various fillings, the various anomalies to you know, 756 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 2: the person's dental aspects. And then when they have a 757 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 2: possible identification, then they go to the dentists to see 758 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,439 Speaker 2: the records, the dental records and does that add up 759 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 2: with the various sings. At the old on time, the 760 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 2: friends of goodontologists was able to chart. Now if you 761 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 2: have somebody who has had no cavities and no fillings 762 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 2: and no other dental issues like me, the dentist doesn't 763 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 2: have anything outside of saying this person has perfect teeth, 764 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 2: you know. So in the databases there isn't anything that 765 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 2: you know in the comments to say, hey, kean On, 766 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 2: this person has a bridge on the lower left part 767 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 2: of their jaw. You just don't have that information, right. 768 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: That observation is interesting. She was badly beaten but found 769 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 2: by a creek, but it doesn't say that she was 770 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,240 Speaker 2: on the road side. So you know, I wonder because 771 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 2: I have seen this where sometimes in fact, i've got 772 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 2: one victim who is beaten so badly. The pathologist says 773 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 2: she's been run over and she wasn't. She was just 774 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 2: beaten so badly, you know. And I'm wondering, is that 775 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 2: what we're dealing with in this Dorothy case, because it 776 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 2: doesn't sound like she's on the road. 777 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have a suspicion about it. I know, this 778 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: seems like a weird weak connection right now because it's 779 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: just him in the city. But this is what police do, 780 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: and this is why I think this part of the 781 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: case might be a little bit confusing. So the police 782 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: in fifty eight, they gather all of these photos of 783 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: these women that he's taking photos of. He knows everybody's names, 784 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: and they're trying to, of course, identify who's alive, and 785 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: so far they can only confirm these three women who 786 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: were dead. He gets to a woman that he says 787 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: was in Denver, and he points to it and says, 788 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: I didn't mark her name down and I never saw 789 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: her again. He does not admit to killing somebody, but 790 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,240 Speaker 1: he made that weird cryptic remark, and they don't trust 791 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: that he's obviously going to tell them everything. He does 792 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: admit that he encountered a woman in Denver, but he says, 793 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: I don't know her name. We have a record of 794 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: this because it's in a police transcript, but we don't 795 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: have the photo that was actually discussed. So what police 796 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 1: in fifty four thought happened was that this victim, who 797 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: we now know is Dorothy, had been thrown into the 798 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: canyon this creek alive from the road above, or possibly 799 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: rammed with a car. Now tell me if this is possible. 800 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 1: In the late two thousands, of cold case investigator compared 801 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: the injuries on Dorothy's body to the dimensions of a 802 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one Dodge Coronet, which was Glatman's car. He said, 803 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: they lined up. I mean, does that even sound like 804 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,760 Speaker 1: that's a thing they're trying to make this connection? 805 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 2: You know, I would have to see what the invest 806 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 2: you know, the injuries the investigators looking at you. I mean, 807 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 2: you could most certainly have contusions that match up with 808 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 2: features of a vehicle as they hit the body. You could, 809 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,760 Speaker 2: you know, have some very unique features of a vehicle 810 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 2: that get impressed into the body during let's say, a 811 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 2: moving type of act of violence. 812 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 3: You know, if the victims. 813 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 2: Standing up and the vehicle hits the victim and at 814 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,399 Speaker 2: a certain point on their body that maybe those those 815 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 2: features are replicated based on the abrasions and the contusions 816 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 2: and stuff. 817 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 3: The body is such. 818 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:13,280 Speaker 2: A weird medium though, for a large object to put 819 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 2: unique characteristics, you know, to be able to really conclusively 820 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 2: match up. I'm not saying I'm skeptical. I just would 821 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 2: need to see it. I would say it's possible. But 822 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 2: sometimes people will imagine things that aren't there. 823 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just say, you know, they were never 824 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: able to make obviously a definitive connection, and there were 825 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: many photos and I'm not sure how helpful Glatman was 826 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,359 Speaker 1: after a certain point, but let me sort of say this, 827 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: this is a little bit of his background, because I 828 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: also think this is important. You know, we are interested 829 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: in the backgrounds of killers and warning signs. So police 830 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 1: say from a young age he had been interested in 831 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: rope and strangulation at the age of four. 832 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 2: You know, I when I talked to law enforcement about, 833 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 2: you know, recognizing the serial predator, there's a phrase that 834 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 2: I always use, and it's called no thy enemy. And 835 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 2: this is to underscore that these predators, their psychology, their fantasy, 836 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 2: their behaviors is so abnormal that unless you study what 837 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 2: these guys do, you're not necessarily going to recognize or 838 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 2: think about, you know, evidentiary aspects of the case. And 839 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 2: when you start talking about going into the you know, 840 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 2: the various psychological abnormalities that these some of these offenders 841 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 2: exhibit as they they grow up, you run into this 842 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 2: type of thing. 843 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 3: I know, some people. 844 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,319 Speaker 2: Say age four, Yes, things some abnormality start showing up 845 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 2: at a very young age. I have Phil Hughes by 846 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 2: age he was in second grade, and he's mutilating his 847 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 2: female classmates doll by second grade. Wow, you know, and 848 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 2: when he was being interviewed by psychologists yet he was 849 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 2: talking about seeing like what he described as dead mannequins 850 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,720 Speaker 2: in his in his in his head. I've really moved 851 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 2: away from kind of the psychology of the making of 852 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 2: the serial predator, you know, I kind of really more 853 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,319 Speaker 2: want to catch him, right, I know, you know, uh, 854 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 2: And it's for the other people who want to study 855 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 2: the psychology. But here you have Glatmin at a very 856 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 2: young age exhibiting some abnormal behaviors and admitting at that 857 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 2: age to fantasy of strangulation. And this just carries out 858 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,240 Speaker 2: to where now he's committing you know, strangulation and sexual 859 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 2: assault on adult females. 860 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think this is another weird thing. 861 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 1: His parents said that he would when he was a 862 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: little older than four, not much older, he would talk 863 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: like a roper string around his neck in the bathtub 864 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: and let the other end of the rope be pulled 865 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: into the drain to feel that tightening. And I just think, God, 866 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: it's so that's so young. I mean, to really be 867 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: fascinated in that way or want to replicate that in 868 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 1: some way. 869 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is where if you see your child 870 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 2: doing these types of behaviors, get them help. 871 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:24,760 Speaker 3: Now. 872 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: This is not going to be a surprise to you 873 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,400 Speaker 1: or anybody listening. His behavior was never good. He was 874 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: pinging with his family between New York City and Denver 875 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: throughout his young adult teenage years. He would repeatedly break 876 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 1: into women's homes and tie him up and grope them. 877 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: Not rape, but grope, And of course eventually that escalated. 878 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,120 Speaker 1: He was in and out. He served five years in 879 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: sing Sing for grand larceny. So this was just a 880 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: clear escalation, not the mutilation of animals that sometimes we 881 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,880 Speaker 1: look for that we know of. This, This is different. 882 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: And I will say though that I I've done stories 883 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: on people who strangle, and they've strangled animals to begin with, 884 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, as practice, So I wouldn't be surprised if 885 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: he had done that with this level of fascination that 886 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: he had, you, I'd. 887 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 2: Say, that's entirely possible, though it's not absolutely necessary. You know, 888 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 2: this is all you know, the cruelty to animals, you know, 889 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,360 Speaker 2: that's all part of this serial killer triad. And it's 890 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,319 Speaker 2: you know, I don't put much weight on, you know, 891 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 2: the bed wetting aspect, a little more weight on, you know, 892 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 2: the setting of the fires, depending on why they're setting 893 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 2: the fires. But I put a huge amount of weight 894 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 2: on if you have somebody, a child that is torturing animals, 895 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,040 Speaker 2: killing animals, they're one step. 896 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 3: Away from doing that to a human. 897 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 2: And that that is the most significant component of the 898 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:54,440 Speaker 2: serial killer triad. This evolution where he's breaking into houses 899 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 2: and groping women. I can guarantee he was a peeper 900 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,800 Speaker 2: at one point, and he was a burglar, a fetish burglar, 901 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 2: prior to actually going physical with these victims inside their 902 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 2: own houses. 903 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:11,000 Speaker 3: That's the standard. 904 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,800 Speaker 2: You know, you have to get comfortable at committing these 905 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 2: various types of lesser crimes before you get into the 906 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 2: more serious crime. And you know, I talk about these 907 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,400 Speaker 2: social barriers to a fence, and I imagine, Kate, if 908 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 2: you're in a neighborhood and you walk on your neighbor's lawn, 909 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 2: you get uncomfortable. You know, you're afraid that that person 910 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 2: is going to be upset with you and yell at 911 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 2: You imagine going up on your neighbor's lawn and looking 912 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:43,040 Speaker 2: inside their house, yeah, or breaking into their house. These 913 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 2: offenders have to pass each of those social barriers and 914 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 2: get comfortable doing that. And so that's where I'm pretty 915 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,720 Speaker 2: sure Glatman is doing all of these various other lesser 916 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,799 Speaker 2: crimes before going in and groping the women inside these 917 00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 2: their own homes. 918 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: Well this after he pleads guilty. He is executed at 919 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,160 Speaker 1: San Quentin Prison in nineteen fifty nine. I will say, 920 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm always looking for heroes, and I love looking for 921 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: the female hero in this story. And how many lives 922 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: did Lorraine save by fighting so hard? And then I 923 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,240 Speaker 1: mean a bullet hit her, grazed her on the thigh. 924 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,399 Speaker 1: She's bleeding. People are ignoring her as they fly down 925 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: the highway and she's holding this guy's own pistol against him, 926 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,840 Speaker 1: and God knows how many people he would have killed, 927 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,440 Speaker 1: how many women he would have killed if she had 928 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,719 Speaker 1: not done that, And I just think that's amazing. I 929 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,120 Speaker 1: love ending on a good note like that that. I'm 930 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:41,360 Speaker 1: very proud of this woman. 931 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 2: You know, no, absolutely, I mean there's no question the 932 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,680 Speaker 2: courage to fight and to actually win the fight. 933 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's amazing. 934 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 1: Well, I feel like I need a couple of baths 935 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: or a couple of showers after this, because this was 936 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: just horrific compared to what well, I mean, we always 937 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: took about really difficult crimes, but this was pretty difficult 938 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,080 Speaker 1: for me and I had never seen photos like this before. 939 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: But a really powerful story finally a woman being able 940 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 1: to take control of the situation and saving so many 941 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 1: lives at least being able to provide closure for the 942 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: other victims in this case, I mean, one of them 943 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,359 Speaker 1: the harder cases that we've had to deal with. 944 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:32,360 Speaker 2: From my I guess world perspective and experience, Glatman is 945 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 2: just one of many of these monsters that are out there, 946 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 2: and it really is something that people need to pay 947 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,320 Speaker 2: attention to because if you take a look at Harvey Glatman. 948 00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 2: He doesn't look like the Boogeyman. He looks just like 949 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 2: the average guy. He looks non threatening, yet he is 950 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 2: able to isolate and take control of these women then 951 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,040 Speaker 2: ultimately kill them. And these types of predators are out there, 952 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 2: and these are the types of cases that I have 953 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 2: spent the last thirty years of my life working. 954 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:13,200 Speaker 1: Well. Next week, I'm going to avoid serial killer cases 955 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 1: because this was a tough one on me. But we 956 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: will come back with another really good episode. Thanks for 957 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,360 Speaker 1: all your hard work on this, Paul. This was a 958 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:21,279 Speaker 1: lot YEP. 959 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 3: This was a good case, good series of cases for me. 960 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:31,920 Speaker 1: Thank you, Kate, good see you next week. This has 961 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production for. 962 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,640 Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com 963 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,480 Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources. 964 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi. 965 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,560 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 966 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 967 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 968 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:53,960 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 969 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer. 970 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,000 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bone on Instagram and Facebook at 971 00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:03,280 Speaker 1: Bury Bones. Pod. 972 00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,280 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 973 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,319 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 974 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and 975 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,440 Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's cold cases, 976 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:16,759 Speaker 1: is also available now