1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff from the Science Lab from how stuff 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey guys, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: This is Alison Madamer like the science Center at how 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: stuff wriks dot com. And this is Robert Lamb Signs 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: writer at how stuff works dot com. Hey Allison, Hey Robert. 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: What do you think of when you hear the phrase 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: fight fire with fire? Well, I think of a song 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: and it goes a little something like this, do others 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: as they do? Do you? So on and so on. 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: It's fight fire with fire, Yes, the classic fight fire 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: with Fire from the Metallica album Ride the Lightning. Indeed, 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: Metallica is a fine man. Yeah, at one point I 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: was really into him. Back in college, I think, what 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: do you think of well? When well, Also, when I 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: was in college, I took a bunch of Shakespeare classes, 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: So I remember a certain line from the Life and 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: Death of King John which went a little something like 18 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: this be stirring as the time be fire with fire threatened, 19 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: the threatening and outface the brow of bragging horror. So 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: this phrase has clearly been around the black. I mean, 21 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: Shakespeare is invoking it, and talk has been invoking it exactly. 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: It's you know, it's pretty simple. Meet violence with violence. 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: You know, an eye for and eye, if you prefer 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: the biblical one. He sends one of yours to the hospital, 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: you send one of his to the morgue, the Chicago 26 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: way exactly. But does it make any literal sense? That's 27 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: the question, right, Can you really fight fire with fire? Yeah? 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: Can you hurl a ball of flames out of fire? 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: And is that going to do any good? Um? It 30 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: might be entertaining, Um, that kind of thing might fly 31 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: burning man, but it's it's not really gonna actually fight 32 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: a fire. It's a lot less exciting than that, right, 33 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: But to a to a certain extent, yes, firefighters do 34 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: fight fire with fire. They use fire um as a 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: means of either preventing or um hall thing or just 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: redirecting the course of wildfires and forest fires. So let's 37 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: let's review it for a second. I know, you guys 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: know what fire is. Of course, it's a chemical reaction. 39 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: It requires oxygen and fuel, and if you take one 40 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: or the other away, your fire is going to die 41 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: out right, right. So one way people have done this 42 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: in the past, um, you know, to throw some water 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: on it. Hey, that's yeah, basically robbing him. But if 44 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: it's robbing the fire of its oxygen and the same 45 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: deal if you've ever seen like an old John Wayne 46 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: movie or there will be blood. You have an oil 47 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: rig fire, you know, you have just a limitless or 48 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: maybe not limitless, but you have a um this constant 49 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: flow of of combustible material coming out of the ground 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: and the fires just raging and raging. Then they throw 51 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: in a stick of dynamite. It's a big explosion, and 52 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: then all you have is just the oil going up. 53 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: So you still have plenty of fuel for the fire, 54 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: but there's no more fire because you took away the 55 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: oxygen with the blast, right, So this sounds like kind 56 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: of a dangerous way to to fight a fire. It 57 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: makes me a little uncomfortable. But it has worked in 58 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: the past, and there are actually some pretty cool stories 59 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: about this. One guy who specialized in fighting oil wil fires. 60 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: I read a really need article on Time about it, 61 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: and he would go around and this was his job. 62 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: It sounds extraordinarily dangerous to me. I think I prefer 63 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: the life of an editor. Oh yes, well, well you 64 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: also have to put out fires as an editor. But 65 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: but this is already guy you're talking about. I don't 66 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: think you'd really do that great of a job against 67 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: a forest fire or wildfire, because that's going to take 68 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: a lot of dynamite to put out, say you know, 69 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: a square acre of flame. Um, So yeah, you really 70 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: can't um take away the oxygen for it for that 71 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: kind of a fire, but you can take away, um, 72 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 1: it's fuel. And that's where fighting fire with fire really 73 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: comes into its own right. So they're two basic strategies 74 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: with fighting fire with fire. You have the preemptive let's 75 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: let's take care of this beforehand. Let's get all the 76 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: fuel out of here. Let's look around my my home 77 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: site and gee, that pile would leaning up against the 78 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: house really isn't such a good idea. Yeah, It's like 79 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: if you live in say New York or London, and 80 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: you see the signs that say please don't feed the rats, 81 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: don't leave food out. You know, I don't want rats 82 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: in my house, so I shouldn't leave a whole bunch 83 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: of junk food laying in the floor or throw it 84 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: down in the street. You know, it's a preemptive move 85 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: to remove the substance that the enemy will consume to 86 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: put Another great analogy that we're talking about is the 87 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: uh the war analogy. This is a when you institute 88 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: a control burn and remove the fuel through a control burn, 89 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: you are it's it's like going out and digging a 90 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: moat to keep an advancing army from getting to you. Okay, yeah, 91 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: I see that. I will say that I feel obligated 92 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: to throw this in. Occasionally you have controlled burns that 93 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: do get out of control, like I read about one 94 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: in back in two thousand UM in New Mexico where 95 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: the National Park Service set a controlled burn um and 96 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: end up consuming something like two hundred homes. Yeah, that's 97 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: not that's not the ideal. Yeah, the the the idea, 98 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: of course is you're gonna you're gonna set the fire 99 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: under control circumstances, you're gonna watch it, you're gonna have 100 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: you know, water on hand, etcetera. UM, and you're just 101 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: going to go ahead and let nature take its course 102 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: to a certain extent under control circumstances. Because it's easy 103 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,239 Speaker 1: to forget this um since fire is such a hindrance 104 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: to human endeavor and in human uh um, you know, settlements, etcetera. 105 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: That as farest fire or wildfire is really part of 106 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: the natural process. In many ecosystems, right, absolutely, I mean 107 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: just like you can live in a flood zone or 108 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: you can live in a fire zone, and vegetations dependent 109 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: on it. Um. You know, it's the way that the 110 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: canopy and the trees might be controlled, you know, so 111 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: that there was an excessive growth, sequoias actually depend on fire. Yeah, 112 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: this square seeds actually remain dormant until the fire breaks 113 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: down the outer coating, and a number of other plants 114 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: have grown, if not to depend upon the fire, um 115 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: to at least whether the storm of regular wildfires. So 116 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: so when you see something, if you happen to see 117 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: somebody performing a control burn, you know, don't feel sorry 118 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: for the vegetation because there's a good chance. I mean, 119 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: this is this is something they've evolved to deal with, right. 120 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: And then the ultimate goal of the control of burns 121 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: a firebreak. It's a gap, that's what you're really looking 122 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: at there. Yeah, it's just it's leg. We're saying, it's 123 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: a moat to keep the advancing army the flame from 124 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: reaching um, you know, your fortress, all right, So let's 125 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: talk about the armies a little closer. They're they're encroaching 126 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: upon our moat. Yeah, yeah, This is where the analogy 127 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: would would be more if you go out and say, 128 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: destroy the bridge to keep the to keep the army 129 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: from advancing. Right, the wildfires rampaging at this point, right, 130 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: the rats are closing in and the only thing you 131 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: can do is just get rid of all the food. 132 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: So so yeah, this is this is backfiring. You just 133 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: go out and um and they start instituting a control burn, uh, 134 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: so as to either to cut off the flames or 135 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: to redirect them. So backfires ultimately may not stop the fire, 136 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: but they may divert it, right, they'll, yeah, they'll at 137 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: least you know, the idea is to divert the flames 138 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: away from a settlement or or another area that's you know, 139 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: laden with fuel. Yeah, and that's where you get those 140 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: cool tools like fire torches and propean torches or drip torches. Right. 141 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: The drip torches are the ones you really see a 142 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: lot of. And this this kind of looks like a 143 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: little handheld canister. It's just dripping flaming liquid. Um. And 144 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: the ideas they just go out there and then you know, 145 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: you can start doing basically a line of flame on 146 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: the ground. It's not a flamethrower, but it's uh, it 147 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: is an implement that drips flame. A propane torches are 148 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: a little more flame there were like, but but yeah, 149 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: they're they're those are the key implemency see used and 150 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: the of course the proplane torches particularly interesting. That well, 151 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: that's because when we were researching this, I found um 152 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: an ad for one on a gardening website and apparently 153 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: it just has tons of uses just around around the house. 154 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: I mean, sure, you want to burn some weeds, because 155 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: I love how this ad points out that you can 156 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: have more fun this way. Pulling weeds that's kind of boring, 157 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: but if you can set fire to them. Imagine we're 158 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: not advocating this, but so this this appeals to the 159 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: pyromaniac and the gardener lake right, yeah, and apparently you 160 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: can use it to like you need to use the 161 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: driveway needs to be de iced, You don't need salt 162 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: or de icing agent. You need a propane torch. Good lord. 163 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: You can sterilize bird and animal cages, etcetera. Anyway, that's 164 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: that's a whole tangent. So that's how you fight fire 165 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 1: with fire. So do you feel feel a little better 166 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: about the flames now fire has wildfires, I will say 167 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: I feel a little better about wildfires. Um, However, I 168 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: don't feel all that good about leaving my curling irons on. Still, 169 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: I still might be a little I'm nervous about that. 170 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: Maybe the toaster, I'm still gonna plug it. I think 171 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: good call. I'm gonna go home and check on my 172 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: coaster too. So if you want to learn more about 173 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: anything from toasters to fire breathing, to firefighters to weather, 174 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: an iPod can set your pants on fire, head on 175 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: over to how stuff works dot com or check out 176 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 1: the blogs that blogs dot how stuff works dot com. 177 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening for more on this and thousands of 178 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: other topics because at how stuff works dot com. Want 179 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: more how stuff works, check out our blogs on the 180 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: house stuff works dot com home page.