Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Okay f Daily with
Speaker 1: Me your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Bunker, Folks.
Speaker 1: On today's show, I'm speaking with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel,
Speaker 1: as I do every Wednesday, and I got to tell
Speaker 1: you that I felt with today's show that it just
Speaker 1: feels heavy. You know, the moment that we are in
Speaker 1: and experiencing and living through just feels heavy. And I
Speaker 1: know that you will feel the tone that Jonathan and
Speaker 1: I have on the show as we unpack the latest
Speaker 1: decision coming from a federal judge another their Trump appointee,
Speaker 1: and there will be many, right because here's the thing,
Speaker 1: what I say in conversation with Jonathan is the fact
Speaker 1: that we cannot just have conversations about how horrible Republicans are,
Speaker 1: how disgusting, distrustful, immoral Republicans are. We are in this
Speaker 1: predicament where we are seeing the power of the bench,
Speaker 1: the power of the courts, the power of federal judges
Speaker 1: who have no courtroom experience, no trial experience, but just
Speaker 1: by virtue of being in the right place at the
Speaker 1: right time with the right fucking president, and the mindset
Speaker 1: of power over everything else being appointed into positions to
Speaker 1: up end, up end rules, up end regulations that are
Speaker 1: meant to keep us all safe. Thing that I keep
Speaker 1: thinking to myself is Democrats are at fault. Never, not
Speaker 1: one time during any election, whether it is mid term
Speaker 1: elections or presidential have I ever heard a candidate discuss
Speaker 1: the importance of the courts unless it is a question
Speaker 1: that is posed in the midst of a debate. Do
Speaker 1: I ever see even the strategy around what it means
Speaker 1: to own the courts, Because it's where all of our
Speaker 1: fucking rights have come from. When you think about school integration,
Speaker 1: when you think about abortion, marriage equality, these are just
Speaker 1: things that have happened in recent years. All of those
Speaker 1: decisions came from the courts. They didn't come from compromise
Speaker 1: or collaboration with Republicans to create policy that then the
Speaker 1: president would pass. No, if you think about the major
Speaker 1: ways in which we have increased and expanded equity in
Speaker 1: this country, it has come solely solely from the courts.
Speaker 1: So why is it then that Mitch McConnell knew that
Speaker 1: he knew that through the entirety of the Obama administration,
Speaker 1: I'm going to ensure that this black man, the nation's
Speaker 1: first black president doesn't get a Supreme Court justice and
Speaker 1: doesn't have the ability to fill as many seats as
Speaker 1: possible because he's going to remake this country in the
Speaker 1: image of the Democratic Party, and I don't want that.
Speaker 1: And instead, instead of Democrats being able to use Mitch
Speaker 1: McConnell's aggression against progress, to use his embrace of white
Speaker 1: supremacy and patriarchy as a rallying cry and an opportunity
Speaker 1: to talk about the importance of the courts and why
Speaker 1: it matters who you are voting for right in your
Speaker 1: congressional districts. For president, it matters because these are the
Speaker 1: people that are sitting on the bench that are going
Speaker 1: to be deciding whether or not Republicans are able to
Speaker 1: jerrymander the fuck out of a district, whether or not
Speaker 1: a woman and a person with a uterus is going
Speaker 1: to be able to access an abortion, whether or not
Speaker 1: your child is going to be able to participate in
Speaker 1: a sport that matches their gender identity, whether or not
Speaker 1: they're going to be able to go to school and
Speaker 1: learn about the diversity of this country and what truly
Speaker 1: makes us great without the fear of persecution of their teachers,
Speaker 1: their administration. All of these decisions are coming down to
Speaker 1: the courts. Mitch McConnell knew this, Donald Trump knew this.
Speaker 1: Why didn't Democrats? So it's not enough for me to
Speaker 1: sit here on this show day in and day out
Speaker 1: and admonish right and try to shame a shameless group
Speaker 1: of people. The reality is is that Democrats drop the
Speaker 1: fucking ball. That's why we're here because we always believe
Speaker 1: there is another election to be had, and I'm here
Speaker 1: to tell you there isn't. The clock has run out
Speaker 1: on our democracy and it isn't just about midterms coming
Speaker 1: up in seven months. It's about what is happening in
Speaker 1: two months in June when the Supreme Court makes their
Speaker 1: final decisions on some of the most important cases to
Speaker 1: be in front of the Supreme Court. A six to
Speaker 1: three Supreme Court thanks to Democrats' inability to fight for
Speaker 1: the seat that Merritt Garland should have right now because
Speaker 1: he's sure it's function be in anybody's Department of Justice.
Speaker 1: But that's a story for another day. He needed to
Speaker 1: be on the bench because at least then we would
Speaker 1: have a five four with the possibility of a swing.
Speaker 1: Now we know where things are going, these decisions that
Speaker 1: are coming down in June our formality, do we really
Speaker 1: think that we're going to continue with Roe v. Wade. No,
Speaker 1: and all of the red states that are putting in
Speaker 1: place their precursor to Roe v. Wade being rolled back.
Speaker 1: They know they've been chomping at the bid for forty
Speaker 1: years for the moment to be able to put women
Speaker 1: and people with uterus is chained in the house, locked
Speaker 1: in a life that they can't find a way out of,
Speaker 1: because we sure less fucking I'm not going to have
Speaker 1: a government that is going to be run by Republicans
Speaker 1: that's going to give a shit about your kids. They
Speaker 1: care about control. And what Jonathan and I will talk
Speaker 1: about today isn't just about power. It's also about the
Speaker 1: power to punish. This is a thing that has come
Speaker 1: up for me as of late. It isn't power just
Speaker 1: for the sake of power. It is power so that
Speaker 1: you can punish, punish marginalized people for even believing for
Speaker 1: a moment that they are deserving for equity and for justice.
Speaker 1: These abortion bills that are rolling out across the country,
Speaker 1: they are about punishing women and people with uterses because
Speaker 1: you see It's not enough to just say abortion can
Speaker 1: only happen in the case of this, this, and this. No,
Speaker 1: it is now about criminalizing, about throwing people in jail
Speaker 1: for having the audacity to control the outcomes of their lives.
Speaker 1: It isn't just enough to say that, oh, we don't
Speaker 1: want to teach critical race theory. No, it is about
Speaker 1: completely whitewashing and returning us back to pre nineteen fifties America,
Speaker 1: where our schools are not integrated, where our curriculums are
Speaker 1: completely whitewashed, where we're going to go back to a
Speaker 1: place where we have prayer in school. Now you can
Speaker 1: bring that case and say, oh, we're supposed to have
Speaker 1: separation between church and state, And how you think that's
Speaker 1: gonna land. With the other Trump appointed federal judges that
Speaker 1: are sitting in lifetime fucking appointments at thirty something years old.
Speaker 1: We're waiting on mid terms to tell us that democracy
Speaker 1: is done. And I'm telling you it's been done, just
Speaker 1: like in my conversation a couple of weeks ago with
Speaker 1: Danielle Campamore and her saying we're talking about the fall
Speaker 1: of rov Wade, as if that hasn't happened in places
Speaker 1: like Mississippi, Texas, Alabama, and now more recently Florida, Utah.
Speaker 1: You have a handful of Democratic governors who are going
Speaker 1: to be overrun. But that's only overrun with people that
Speaker 1: can afford to make it to those states. Because for
Speaker 1: those that are in poverty, that are in low wage jobs,
Speaker 1: that are hourly wage workers, what are their options going
Speaker 1: to be? Folks? We are in a terrible place. And
Speaker 1: for years I've been saying on this show, since it began,
Speaker 1: that I believe that things in this country are going
Speaker 1: to get bloodier before they get better. You can take
Speaker 1: that anyway that you want, but what I recognize is
Speaker 1: that we are not members of a party that are
Speaker 1: willing to do the hard work. They want to wave
Speaker 1: a finger, they want to try and shame the shameless.
Speaker 1: They want to talk about morality for people that have
Speaker 1: long since given up their values. How are you going
Speaker 1: to talk to people about morality when they have turned
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, a man that has been married multiple times,
Speaker 1: has multiple sexual assault and harassment cases against him, that
Speaker 1: bragged about grabbing a woman by a pussy, that is
Speaker 1: a racist, and has talked about shiitthold countries. How are
Speaker 1: you going to appeal to their moral fiber. You're not.
Speaker 1: So why are we pretending? Why are we pretending that
Speaker 1: our democracy is still intact when it's not. The Trumps
Speaker 1: know it, the mcconnells know it, the McCarthy's know it.
Speaker 1: I think that change is really hard, right, That's what
Speaker 1: we know to be true. That's what we've seen over
Speaker 1: the last two years. As nimble as we would like
Speaker 1: to think of ourselves, we're really not. We're creatures of
Speaker 1: habit and so it's really hard and jarring to say
Speaker 1: to the American public, you've lost your democracy. That's not
Speaker 1: what we're living in now. We're living in some form
Speaker 1: of a kleptocracy, a loose democracy, or, as was stated
Speaker 1: for the first time, a regressive democracy. We all wanted
Speaker 1: to believe that a democratic win in twenty twenty was
Speaker 1: somehow going to save us. And what we have all
Speaker 1: realized and known to be true now is that I
Speaker 1: feel worse. I got to tell you. At least with Trump,
Speaker 1: every day was a nightmare. But I knew why, and
Speaker 1: I knew it was because Republicans were in control of everything.
Speaker 1: So I had worked up in my mind that once
Speaker 1: Democrats took the gavel and took back the Oval office
Speaker 1: that sanity would return. I had no idea, honestly, how
Speaker 1: fucking deep the Trump disease would be, and that it
Speaker 1: has spread just as fast, just as voracious as COVID.
Speaker 1: You got people now like cheering and throwing up their
Speaker 1: mass on airplanes because they think that somehow this is
Speaker 1: a fucking win. When all you have to do is
Speaker 1: look at what is happening in the UK, what is
Speaker 1: happening around the world with these latest strains, and know
Speaker 1: that we are careening towards disaster in so many fucking ways.
Speaker 1: It's hard to keep your head straight. It's on a swivel.
Speaker 1: I pose this question yesterday on Twitter, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to pose it to all of you right now, and again,
Speaker 1: I encourage you in the comments section, even if you've
Speaker 1: never commented before, please consider answering this question. What do
Speaker 1: you think is wrong with America right now? And can
Speaker 1: it be fixed? Because that's the thing is that we
Speaker 1: all realize that something is incredibly wrong. We have this
Speaker 1: feeling that sits with us right it's become this residue
Speaker 1: that you're just trying to scrub away. I feel like
Speaker 1: Macbeth and I'm just out, damn spot out, Get rid me,
Speaker 1: Rid me of this residue, rid me of this continued
Speaker 1: perpetual fear and anxiety and stress. So here are some
Speaker 1: of the responses that people have posted. First person Wayne
Speaker 1: Glapion tweeted, the majority is unwilling to fight, minority unwilling
Speaker 1: to relinquish benefits based on racist policies. Solution will be
Speaker 1: decided by who is more determined to educate, organize, and
Speaker 1: implement a proactive effort to obtain their vision of America.
Speaker 1: The Honorable Arliss Green tweeted, in my opinion, the problems
Speaker 1: that we're facing today are rooted in the absolute moral
Speaker 1: corruption of religious leaders in the US. The MAGA crowd
Speaker 1: genuinely leaves that their hatefulness is righteousness. Many religious leaders
Speaker 1: teach politics on Sundays. Now the Bible warned us. Jennifer
Speaker 1: Coleman says, extremism on the right and the left politically
Speaker 1: and culturally, Americans are moving farther away from each other culturally.
Speaker 1: I do not know how we can fix that. Any
Speaker 1: ideas selfishness, ignorance, says cynical army wife, and hate masquerading
Speaker 1: as patriotism, sophistication, and values. I'm afraid our system will
Speaker 1: have to collapse before we wake up and build a
Speaker 1: decent society. And here's another one. I really thought that
Speaker 1: things would be so much markedly better under this administration.
Speaker 1: I'm so disillusioned. It's really hard right now for us
Speaker 1: to imagine things getting worse. But my fear is that
Speaker 1: we haven't even hit the tip of the iceberg yet.
Speaker 1: America is the Titanic. Is it impossible to turn things
Speaker 1: around that we see coming literally a mile away? No,
Speaker 1: but it's going to take a lot of collective action
Speaker 1: in order to turn things around. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if there is the will. I don't know if it is.
Speaker 1: If they're right, will we need to experience collapse and
Speaker 1: complete in total devastation for people to realize what it
Speaker 1: was that we had. But at that point, how many
Speaker 1: democracies that collapse are able to rebuild within our lifetimes?
Speaker 1: I don't know. But coming up next my conversation with
Speaker 1: our good friend doctor Jonathan Metzel to unpack where we
Speaker 1: are with the latest COVID numbers, mass mandates thrown out
Speaker 1: the window, and just genuinely with our democracy. But in
Speaker 1: the comments section of this episode. My question stands, what
Speaker 1: do you think is wrong with America? And can it
Speaker 1: be fixed? Friends? You know that when it is Wednesday,
Speaker 1: we have our in house doctor, which apparently we are
Speaker 1: all going to need soon, doctor Jonathan Metzel joining us
Speaker 1: on Woke f Jonathan this week. Judge out of Florida,
Speaker 1: Judge Mizzelle, a Trump appointee who the American Bar Association
Speaker 1: said was unqualified to be a federal judge, who has
Speaker 1: never tried a case, just overturned the federal government and
Speaker 1: the CDC's ability to institute mass mandates on public transportation.
Speaker 1: So this includes railways, this includes planes. When the news broke,
Speaker 1: I saw it, I saw it on Twitter. I saw
Speaker 1: a video as well that I wasn't sure if the
Speaker 1: video was real, and it was people aboard a plane
Speaker 1: apparently an announcement from the flight deck that said that
Speaker 1: the mass mandate was over, and the people on board
Speaker 1: ripped off their masks and started cheering. You would have
Speaker 1: thought that they said, COVID is finished, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's no longer a pandemic, it's not killing two thousand
Speaker 1: people a day, and you know, life as we once
Speaker 1: knew it, can resume, but that's not what happened. Jonathan,
Speaker 1: what was your reaction from the decision by trumper Judge
Speaker 1: Mizzelle And if you did see that video, what was
Speaker 1: your reaction from that. I think the whole science of
Speaker 1: public health depends on kind of getting people to work
Speaker 1: collectively to do things that may or may not be
Speaker 1: what they would choose to do individually. Right. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's pleasant to smoke. It's probably pleasant to smoke in
Speaker 1: a restaurant if you're a smoker, but you don't smoke
Speaker 1: because second hand smoke can be bad for other people.
Speaker 1: And so it's not just about your freedom, it's about
Speaker 1: other people's health implications. People probably in the beginning, as
Speaker 1: we know, didn't want to wear seatbelts. It's kind of
Speaker 1: a pain in the butt to have to strap something
Speaker 1: around yourself. I'd rather just drive down the road free
Speaker 1: and easy in that kind of thing. Bike helmet, you know,
Speaker 1: motorcycle helmets, all this kind of thing. So, in a way,
Speaker 1: the whole idea of public health is we define what
Speaker 1: we have as a society or a civilization, and then
Speaker 1: we make rules that collectively not just protect communal health,
Speaker 1: but they also lessen the load on this system, right
Speaker 1: the financial system, the cost the healthcare system, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of what is underneath a lot of the pandemic
Speaker 1: era stuff that basically, it's like, you know, we're going
Speaker 1: to make some decisions that some people like and some
Speaker 1: people don't like, but we're looking at kind of the
Speaker 1: system itself. You have, so you have to be able
Speaker 1: to imagine the system, and certainly that's been the case
Speaker 1: with the transit decision. People can take off their mask
Speaker 1: wherever they want at home and daily pretty much everywhere
Speaker 1: in daily life right now, but when you're locked on
Speaker 1: a plane with people, and especially right now because this
Speaker 1: shiite is getting pretty bad again right now, and it's
Speaker 1: going to get a lot worse, you know, the timing,
Speaker 1: you know, So there's a balance here, right, There's always
Speaker 1: a balance. And for anybody who flies on a plane.
Speaker 1: I fly every week, there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: on the flight who don't want to have to wear
Speaker 1: a mask, and there are a lot of people who
Speaker 1: feel like they're safe wearing a mask and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I always thought like, I don't want to force anybody
Speaker 1: to do anything that want to do, but also I
Speaker 1: don't want a bunch of COVID in the air when
Speaker 1: I'm on the plane. So I wish we could just
Speaker 1: have pro code COVID fights and anti COVID flights and
Speaker 1: you could just kind of decide which airplane you want
Speaker 1: to get on. But that's not the system we're in.
Speaker 1: So part of the story I thought was just kind
Speaker 1: of the death of the idea that we can kind
Speaker 1: of work collectively, not just about it's not about individual liberty.
Speaker 1: It's like, if everybody gets COVID now, our healthcare system
Speaker 1: is going to collapse. And so is that something you
Speaker 1: want or not? So that's part of it. That's point
Speaker 1: number one. Point number two again is the timing is
Speaker 1: horrible because if you look what's happening in the UK
Speaker 1: right now, for example, they're they're almost at bed maximum.
Speaker 1: They've been they've been doing kind of the same. You know,
Speaker 1: everybody you don't have to wear pants if you don't
Speaker 1: want to or whatever, and their system is falling apart.
Speaker 1: You're at risk of it because the new variants are
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just infections that are going up,
Speaker 1: hospitalizations are going up. And so I think there's some
Speaker 1: pretty serious COVID coming down the Pike here, So it's
Speaker 1: not a great time for this kind of thing. And
Speaker 1: I guess the third point is something we've talked about
Speaker 1: all year here, which is about the power of the judiciary.
Speaker 1: In other words, if you can I mean, this judge
Speaker 1: is a thirty three year old appointee, a lifetime appointment
Speaker 1: to a federal judge ship who, as you say, not
Speaker 1: only has never had never heard a case and therefore
Speaker 1: was deemed unacceptable by the ABA, but also in this
Speaker 1: case didn't hear the case right. There was no hearing
Speaker 1: in front of the judge. There was a hearing that
Speaker 1: was supposed to be next week, but the judge said,
Speaker 1: I don't even need to hear it. I know what
Speaker 1: my opinion is, and I'm ripping this up. And so
Speaker 1: the power of the judiciary, I mean, this is kind
Speaker 1: of what the Republicans figured out ten years ago, and
Speaker 1: the Democrats were too busy fighting about random crap. The
Speaker 1: Republicans realized and the Federal Society and all these guys
Speaker 1: that you can circumvent the will of the people if
Speaker 1: you control the judiciary and the Democrats. I mean, you
Speaker 1: and I talked about it from I mean, we talked
Speaker 1: about it every single week, but the past three years
Speaker 1: that the Democrats are fighting about stuff that is much
Speaker 1: more flash in the pan kind of stuff. But if
Speaker 1: you don't, if you don't control the judiciary, you're it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, right. And this is the first of many
Speaker 1: such examples that are about to come down the pike
Speaker 1: of the ways in which if you control the judiciary,
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter what your local laws are. And
Speaker 1: that's probably even more terrifying, I think, one of the things.
Speaker 1: And and I want to stay with the point that
Speaker 1: you just made with regard to you can circumvent the
Speaker 1: will of the people if you own the courts, right.
Speaker 1: And I want to also lift up what don Trump
Speaker 1: Junior said in his text messages to Mark Meadows, which
Speaker 1: was we own all the paths to power, right, so
Speaker 1: just make it happen my father's second term starts now.
Speaker 1: They are a party that does not believe in democracy.
Speaker 1: And I think that we as Democrats, and particularly the
Speaker 1: Democrats that are part of the establishment, the ones that
Speaker 1: are making, you know, the policy sees, and the ones
Speaker 1: that have the ability to take Republicans head on and
Speaker 1: not just in the twitter sphere right like you know,
Speaker 1: or on television like you and I do, but like
Speaker 1: have the ability to take them on. Are complicit, Jonathan
Speaker 1: in what is happening? We can't you know? And this
Speaker 1: is this is what really frustrates me, is that I
Speaker 1: can't just look at what Democrat, at what Republicans have
Speaker 1: done to undermine our judiciary, to undermine our democracy, and
Speaker 1: hold them solely to blame, because you needed a week
Speaker 1: and naive Democratic party in order for this to happen,
Speaker 1: and a fractured one and a fractured one right in
Speaker 1: order for this to happen, because if Democrats had been
Speaker 1: as united and remained as united during the Trump years
Speaker 1: and now right recognizing what it is to be true
Speaker 1: that these people right no longer hold our democracy as
Speaker 1: a shared value, They no longer hold our Constitution as
Speaker 1: a shared doctrine that is a living, breathing document that
Speaker 1: is about the expansion of what the Framers believed, right,
Speaker 1: And so if you understand that to be true, then
Speaker 1: the moves that you would make right would match what
Speaker 1: you know. But what we see and what we've seen
Speaker 1: over the last you know, a couple of years, particularly
Speaker 1: since Biden, you know, came into office, is this desire
Speaker 1: for a political nostalgia that no longer exists, right, this camaraderie,
Speaker 1: this collaboration for the betterment of the country. And so
Speaker 1: it's that naivete that is really going to be is
Speaker 1: the death of the Republic. Because yesterday, when I'm watching
Speaker 1: as these people are ripping off their masks and cheering
Speaker 1: on this enclosed germ flying germ machine. Which is what
Speaker 1: I've always said about planes, Right, there has never been
Speaker 1: a time that I have traveled until COVID while wearing
Speaker 1: a mask that I didn't end up getting sick. Right,
Speaker 1: That's just virtue of being on a plane in my
Speaker 1: immune system doesn't love it, right, and I would always
Speaker 1: get sick. And so you see these people, and I'm
Speaker 1: just like, I don't even believe, Jonathan, to be honest
Speaker 1: that if we had this all to do over again,
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump hadn't been president and it had been hilary, like,
Speaker 1: if all of these things had been true, I honestly
Speaker 1: don't believe that two plus years in people wouldn't be
Speaker 1: where they are right now. I gotta I gotta be honest.
Speaker 1: I think that the American people have not only a
Speaker 1: very small memory, but a very short memory but I
Speaker 1: also believe that they have a very small appetite for
Speaker 1: being dictated to right. And so it's not that I
Speaker 1: believe that we wouldn't be in this place of just
Speaker 1: exhaustion as it pertains to the pandemic. But it's just
Speaker 1: like I want Democrats to have taken responsibility for the
Speaker 1: fact that we wouldn't be in this situation with the
Speaker 1: courts if they had paid attention for the last ten years. Well,
Speaker 1: and not only that, I'm going to give you a
Speaker 1: very counterintuitive take, right, which is if you study how
Speaker 1: the Republicans like got this power, they had to make
Speaker 1: a lot of very uncomfortable deals. I mean, it wasn't
Speaker 1: like getting in bed with the NRA or the Federalist
Speaker 1: Society or things like that in the beginning. Was you know,
Speaker 1: their goal was power. Their goal was not ideology. The
Speaker 1: ideology was power, and so people had to make they
Speaker 1: had to make a lot of uncomfortable deals in in
Speaker 1: the aim of power. I mean they literally sacrificed a
Speaker 1: lot of their base for it. Um But and so
Speaker 1: it's not like it was. It mean, it took four decades, right,
Speaker 1: but but the idea was we're gonna We're gonna under
Speaker 1: our umbrella, um, bring in the proud boys and the
Speaker 1: three percenters and the NRA and the whatever whatever whatever,
Speaker 1: and so um. You know it probably I have no idea,
Speaker 1: but it probably became like less of a It became
Speaker 1: less of a kind of moral dilemma, you know, because
Speaker 1: everybody understood that the goal was power, and then you know,
Speaker 1: you take over the judges, you take over the school boards,
Speaker 1: you take over the election apparatus, which is what's happening
Speaker 1: now or things like that. So if everybody's on board
Speaker 1: with like the goal being power, um, then the narrative
Speaker 1: makes sense. And I contrast that, and here's where the
Speaker 1: unpopular take is going to be. Um, Like let's think
Speaker 1: about like managing and cinema and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Like the idea was basically, when people see that we
Speaker 1: vote for this social safety net all this kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: that everybody's going to see how good the Democrats are doing,
Speaker 1: and they're going to rally to our side. And that's
Speaker 1: probably true. But I can say, having studied the Affordable
Speaker 1: Care Act, that you can give people a social safety
Speaker 1: net and it's still not going to assume if you
Speaker 1: don't also have a strategy for power. Then it's not
Speaker 1: like people are going to automatically say, oh, the Democrats
Speaker 1: are making our lives so much better because we have
Speaker 1: free healthcare for example, or something like that. And what
Speaker 1: people miss about like management and cinema for example, is
Speaker 1: that they've voted for every single one of the judges
Speaker 1: that Biden has put forward. Right, So, just from a
Speaker 1: power perspective, I don't know. I guess I'm not exactly.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing here, here's the thing is that
Speaker 1: I think I agree mostly, but I have an addition.
Speaker 1: So it's not it's not even a subtract. I have
Speaker 1: an addition to what you're saying. I do believe that
Speaker 1: the Republicans goal has always been power, right, They've been
Speaker 1: on this, like you're saying, a four decade march back
Speaker 1: to total power. But also what I believe, Jonathan, and
Speaker 1: this is new, I think under Trumpism is punishment. And
Speaker 1: this is the thing that I don't believe that we're
Speaker 1: also uplifting and paying attention to. They don't want just
Speaker 1: power for powers sake. They want power for the ability
Speaker 1: to punish those that believe that they should have access
Speaker 1: to the American dream to democracy. To anything, right. So
Speaker 1: it isn't enough to just be able to dictate, Oh
Speaker 1: we don't want abortion, No, we're going to criminalize women
Speaker 1: and people with uterus is for having the audacity to
Speaker 1: want autonomy over their bodies. Not only are we going
Speaker 1: to dictate curriculum right and what is taught and if
Speaker 1: it moves outside of the frame of white supremacy, then
Speaker 1: we are going to criminal allies, right, our teachers and
Speaker 1: administrators and you know, and and take these schools, these
Speaker 1: public schools, to court or bleed them dry, starve them right,
Speaker 1: starve them of federal resources. Once Republicans get in power,
Speaker 1: it's not enough to just say, oh, we don't agree,
Speaker 1: we don't like the LGBTQ community. No, we're going to
Speaker 1: punish you. Right, So you're not going to be able
Speaker 1: to play sports, You're not going to be able to
Speaker 1: participate if you are trans youth or LGBTQ youth with
Speaker 1: your peers, right, we're going to ostracize you. It is
Speaker 1: about power and punishment for them. And so what pains
Speaker 1: me is that then when I know that to be true,
Speaker 1: and I hear Biden and other Democrats continuing again to
Speaker 1: refer to these people as their friends and think that
Speaker 1: there is a common ground to be had with people
Speaker 1: that want to see you in pain and you listen.
Speaker 1: I mean, fucking Don Junior tweeted on Easter, for the
Speaker 1: love of God an Easter bunny with an AR fifteen saying,
Speaker 1: come and get it. This is about violence, right, It's
Speaker 1: about violence, pain and power. And I'm like an until
Speaker 1: Democrat the establishment understands that narrative, they're never going to
Speaker 1: be able to counterbalance it. Well. I mean, I of
Speaker 1: course agree. You know, in Tennessee we've just criminalized homelessness,
Speaker 1: so I think there's lots of examples of that kind
Speaker 1: of punishment happening right now. But I would also say
Speaker 1: that it's not just a question of the democratic establishment.
Speaker 1: It's actually a question of the democratic base. I mean,
Speaker 1: part of what the Republicans did is they convinced their
Speaker 1: base to go along with this, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that the Democrats have quite done that. In other words, like,
Speaker 1: what are the what are the if the goal is
Speaker 1: getting power back, what are the are the what are
Speaker 1: the trade offs you're gonna have to make to get there? Right?
Speaker 1: I'm just being like really nuts and boltsy about it.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I've been reading some good stuff recently
Speaker 1: that the Democrats path to winning back elections actually involves
Speaker 1: winning back um centrist Latino voters who are who are
Speaker 1: drifting toward the Republicans, and figuring out a way to
Speaker 1: win back working class wide voters in parts of the country.
Speaker 1: And so what kind of what kind of trade offs
Speaker 1: would the Democrats have to make to bring those two
Speaker 1: voting blocks back under the Democratic tent It would probably
Speaker 1: not be um stuff that we feel is important, like
Speaker 1: the Green New Deal and me to care for all
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And so the question is, like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's if the framework is power.
Speaker 1: It's different than morality or righteousness or ideas. And I
Speaker 1: say don't and I say, don't sell it right, like
Speaker 1: I'm not interested. I'm going to be honest with you
Speaker 1: when at the stage we're at. I woke up this morning,
Speaker 1: and you know, against my better judgment, I turned on
Speaker 1: the news, which I usually do not do until the afternoon.
Speaker 1: And it's, frankly because I would rather read the news
Speaker 1: than begin to ingest it right via television, And against
Speaker 1: my better judgment, I turn it on and I'm listening
Speaker 1: to Mika and Joe on Morning Joe and Mika is
Speaker 1: going through every single headline. She's talking about an uptick
Speaker 1: in violence in schools, in public schools because the reintegration,
Speaker 1: the anxiety around COVID like has created this unpredictable, unstable
Speaker 1: kind of mental health environment for kids. And this is
Speaker 1: you know, it was a top story in New Mexico.
Speaker 1: They're talking about Utah now taking on abortion, right, yet
Speaker 1: another red state that is now taking on abortion and
Speaker 1: saying that, you know, we're going to create law that
Speaker 1: is only abortion in the case of the risk of
Speaker 1: the health of the mother, who which, by the way,
Speaker 1: who the fuck gets to determine that, right, Like your
Speaker 1: right wing red state doctor gets to say whether or
Speaker 1: not you know, this is life threatening, whether or not
Speaker 1: you actually were raped or this was a product of insects, Like, again,
Speaker 1: the determination is not your own, right. So they're going
Speaker 1: to ban abortion ahead of what is already going to
Speaker 1: be the national band come June, except for the few
Speaker 1: abortion asylum states. Right, So you're looking at all of
Speaker 1: these news stories. Then it was the COVID story and
Speaker 1: all of these things that I'm saying, Jesus Christ, right like,
Speaker 1: Octavia Butler wrote Parable of the Sower back in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three, and it was foreshadowing to twenty twenty four,
Speaker 1: which is where the story took place, and it was
Speaker 1: talking about the confluence of climate change, a right wing
Speaker 1: evangelical Christian takeover of America that destabilized all of the
Speaker 1: social safety nets you have. Drugs are rampant, violence is rampant,
Speaker 1: and unless you have the money to be able to
Speaker 1: hire your own police department to protect yourself or live
Speaker 1: inside of this walled off community, you know, you're basically
Speaker 1: living in the wild, right, And this is what Republicans want.
Speaker 1: So for me, it isn't about Democrats continuing to have
Speaker 1: policy discussions. It's about them identifying who the fucking villain
Speaker 1: is of our story and us coalescing around our common villain,
Speaker 1: right and pointing out that these people are a threat, right,
Speaker 1: They are a threat to everything that you hold dear,
Speaker 1: And until we can agree that the Republicans are the
Speaker 1: villain of the American project right, don't talk to me
Speaker 1: about policy and facts and statistics when they are on
Speaker 1: earth to creating their own alternative facts. They have not
Speaker 1: identified who the villain is, and so there is no
Speaker 1: coalescing around this common enemy. I mean, two years ago
Speaker 1: we won a national election based on a common villain.
Speaker 1: So it's not like we can't do it. We just
Speaker 1: did it literally the last election. But but the minute
Speaker 1: we won then it was like, well, you owe me
Speaker 1: because my voting block showed up for you, and it
Speaker 1: became fractured right away. And in the meantime, the Republicans
Speaker 1: were using the twenty twenty election, as we've talked about here,
Speaker 1: to overtake the apparatus of the election itself, and the
Speaker 1: Democrats just were way too slow to see the threat
Speaker 1: that was actually happening, and so we needed to keep
Speaker 1: the focus back on what it was. I mean, we
Speaker 1: I think we badly misinterpreted the twenty twenty election. Just
Speaker 1: to be totally frank, It's not like it's not like
Speaker 1: we loved Joe Biden, we hated Trump and so. But
Speaker 1: but I think the minute we won the election, it
Speaker 1: was like my block showed up, and this is what's
Speaker 1: to happen, or my blockshepp and this is what happened,
Speaker 1: and we didn't see that. Really what we needed to
Speaker 1: do is keep that coalition together and defend democracy, right
Speaker 1: run for every local school board, run for every local
Speaker 1: election thing, keep the freaking Lincoln Project doing our messaging,
Speaker 1: like all the kind of things that we didn't do
Speaker 1: after that election because we thought, oh whatever, and so
Speaker 1: now we're kind of paying the price for it. And
Speaker 1: the other side was very disciplined about something that is
Speaker 1: total horseshit, which is this idea. But I mean, wait
Speaker 1: till after they win the mid terms. They're going they're
Speaker 1: going to try to decertify the twenty twenty election. I'm worried,
Speaker 1: and so it's they're not going to try, Jonathan, They're
Speaker 1: going to do it. They're also going to begin impeachment
Speaker 1: proceedings for Joe Biden, and they are going to use
Speaker 1: Hunter Biden's laptop as this bullshit story that they're going
Speaker 1: to pump into the press NonStop. And then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, the media is going to start questioning things.
Speaker 1: And then Donald Trump wills have ceased to exist, and
Speaker 1: the moment that Democrats had to once again tell the
Speaker 1: story of this criminal enterprise being run outside of our
Speaker 1: run in our White House for four plus years, we'll
Speaker 1: be done. Yeah, right, And then Democrats can go back
Speaker 1: to watch waving their finger and trying to shame people
Speaker 1: that have told you that they are shameless. And you know,
Speaker 1: you've had Jason Stanley on the show, like the fascism
Speaker 1: rises with a fractured resistance right, and so dividing the
Speaker 1: Democrats into different camps is you know, we're going to
Speaker 1: be in the resistance for quite some time. And so
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's not too late, but I mean, again,
Speaker 1: we need to massively mobilize to run for local elections.
Speaker 1: I mean, that really is the lesson here that if
Speaker 1: we run for you know, the state apparatus really has
Speaker 1: to get a lot stronger. That should have been you know,
Speaker 1: the move for the Democrats after winning the election is
Speaker 1: we're going to we're going to be hardassies and we're
Speaker 1: going to defend democracy. It wasn't even putting Trump on trial.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that was important, but it called
Speaker 1: on a kind of moral assumption about people that assumed
Speaker 1: that they would all see the threat to our republic
Speaker 1: and then turned back towards whatever we should have been,
Speaker 1: like really working hard to seize the mechanisms of power
Speaker 1: that let that thing happen in the first place. And
Speaker 1: so again, it's not too late, but we really need
Speaker 1: to really invest in these local elections that determine how
Speaker 1: elections are run and and and really unify about that.
Speaker 1: I mean, again, you know, I got really depressed their day.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm an upbeat person and as you know,
Speaker 1: I love puppies. But but but the Washington Post had
Speaker 1: a story about here the top ten Democratic convendors for
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty four election, and it was like the
Speaker 1: exact same ten people we've seen running forever. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, right now, we need to think outside the box.
Speaker 1: We need to we need a convert We need an outsider.
Speaker 1: We need like the Democratic Trump who comes out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: who has sway and power and authority, Like it, now's
Speaker 1: the time to think outside of our boy. We need divergence.
Speaker 1: We need a divergence, a divergent candidate from Like, you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right, I'm tired of the same players and frankly,
Speaker 1: like they're not winning, they're not They're you know, we
Speaker 1: we we said to ourselves, we swallowed this hard pill.
Speaker 1: We'll go with Biden, right, because we don't know who
Speaker 1: else can win. We'll go We'll go with him. And
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I honestly think it was a big mistake,
Speaker 1: but we knew that, right. I believe that it was
Speaker 1: a mistake because I don't think that he sees the
Speaker 1: world in the way that it is. I think that
Speaker 1: he sees the world in the way that it was
Speaker 1: and what he has understand as the political landscape for
Speaker 1: the last forty plus years of his life of service.
Speaker 1: But that's not where we are. I mean, if you
Speaker 1: look at historical examples, I mean, I just say that
Speaker 1: anybody on the list is not going to win an election.
Speaker 1: I mean, Elizabeth Warren is not going to win an election. Respectfully,
Speaker 1: AOC is not going to win a national election right now,
Speaker 1: and neither is Kamala Harris or mayor Pete or any
Speaker 1: of those guys, you know, because they're all associated with
Speaker 1: this brand that is not a great brand right now.
Speaker 1: And so what you need, I mean, history tells us
Speaker 1: the power of the convert, right that somebody who was
Speaker 1: on the other side and then came to your side
Speaker 1: and they have inside into the other side and has
Speaker 1: sway or something like that. Like I think we should
Speaker 1: have a you know, AOC list Cheney ticket or something
Speaker 1: like that, like something that is just completely not linked
Speaker 1: to or just you know, something we need something we
Speaker 1: need George Clooney, something I don't know, we need something
Speaker 1: that's not linked to the brand right now, because the
Speaker 1: brand is not is the brand is tarnish. And honestly,
Speaker 1: I want, folks, you know, as you're listening to this,
Speaker 1: who would be your ticket? Who do you think, in
Speaker 1: all honesty in the comments section, who would be the
Speaker 1: ticket that right now if you could run them, you
Speaker 1: believe that they would get the votes. And I don't
Speaker 1: mean the popular vote, I mean, like be the racist
Speaker 1: electoral college, Like who is going to do that? I
Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Well, But I mean the
Speaker 1: other part of that, let me just say, is that
Speaker 1: the people who would win those elections are not going
Speaker 1: to be palatable to a lot of Democrats, right, And
Speaker 1: so that's the problem is that the Democrats like, think
Speaker 1: about all these people who hated Trump and then they
Speaker 1: love Trump. I mean jd Vance top of that list.
Speaker 1: And so the issue is the Democrats have to think
Speaker 1: change the way they think about democracy. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that's just kind of the way it is in
Speaker 1: this moment. And so it's it's just much more much
Speaker 1: more strategic, and I'm not saying sell out your values.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, think about who can actually win and
Speaker 1: what they do. So's it would not be comfortable for
Speaker 1: Democrats to think, you know, it's it's not a comfortable
Speaker 1: moment for Democrats. Everybody needs to move outside of their
Speaker 1: fucking comfort zone. Everybody needs to get off of their
Speaker 1: idealized shit right Like it doesn't fucking work, right. And
Speaker 1: at this point in where we are, we are at
Speaker 1: war with the Republican Party, and there's only one party
Speaker 1: that believes that we are at war, and it is
Speaker 1: not Democrats. And so I don't know how you continue
Speaker 1: to function when people are beating your ass up and
Speaker 1: down this country right now, from abortion to gay rights
Speaker 1: to voting rights, like it's all going and yet we
Speaker 1: own all the quote unquote mechanisms of federal power, and
Speaker 1: we're seeing that that doesn't matter. Right, So at some
Speaker 1: point you need to have a stop, pivot and reflect
Speaker 1: on what is not working and make a dramatic move.
Speaker 1: And the thing that is true about the democratic establishment
Speaker 1: is that it is like the Titanic, right. You see
Speaker 1: the iceberg right ahead. But to stop that ship and
Speaker 1: to turn it all the way around is going to
Speaker 1: take everyone on board, moving to the other side right
Speaker 1: and recognizing that we're the only ones that can stop this.
Speaker 1: But until then, we're just going to continue towards the iceberg.
Speaker 1: And I would also just quote mister t enclosing, when
Speaker 1: you get on a plane, wear a motherfucking mask. Yeah,
Speaker 1: even if everybody else isn't doing it. So guys, stay safe.
Speaker 1: As always, Jonathan, we appreciate your insight and you know
Speaker 1: your continued energy as we move through what is inevitable disaster.
Speaker 1: Never a dull moment, Never a dull moment. That is
Speaker 1: it for me today, dear friends on wo gay app
Speaker 1: as always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power,
Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.