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Speaker 1: Hi am Kate Hudson, and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationships and

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling, Railval, No, no, sibling.

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Speaker 1: You don't do that with your mouth, Vely, that's good.

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Speaker 1: Esther Parrel I loved this, Olive her. This was amazing.

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Speaker 1: I could have talked to her for many, many hours.

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Speaker 1: Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and an expert on relationships

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Speaker 1: and sexuality. Right, that's why we had a lot in common.

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Speaker 1: I am too, Jesus she had. She has a really

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Speaker 1: popular podcast called Where Should We Begin? I love this podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating. I get so sucked into this podcast because

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Speaker 1: she really like, well, first of all, you think it's

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Speaker 1: not going to be a really a relatable situation because

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Speaker 1: some of them are really extreme. And then there's like

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Speaker 1: you just everything about relationships becomes relatable. But she hasn't.

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Speaker 1: She has an amazing story. I mean, even aside from

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Speaker 1: sort of what she does, how popular she is. You know,

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Speaker 1: her parents were Holocaust survivors. Yeah, and you know she

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Speaker 1: gets into sort of how they came to the West. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also she talked a lot about you know, the

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Speaker 1: legacy of trauma and resilience and you know how her

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Speaker 1: parents managed that. It was really, really, really interesting and

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Speaker 1: obviously we hit some cool topics. You know, I know

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Speaker 1: that people a lot of people know who she is,

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Speaker 1: and we we tried to sort of hit some different topics.

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Speaker 1: You know, importance to physical touch. We talked about that,

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Speaker 1: which is big for me because my love language is

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Speaker 1: physical touches. Everyone knows staying connected to people, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the importance of staying connected. And well, how about

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Speaker 1: we talk also the impact Yes, I was just going

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Speaker 1: to say that of technology, right and lonely yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And then then I sort of countered with but can't

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Speaker 1: tech especially watching these boys now with their vrs and stuff.

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Speaker 1: As crazy as it is they are, they are engaged

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Speaker 1: in a community and with other people and laughing and sharing. No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's terrible for their b It's okay. This was

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Speaker 1: my favorite thing that she said. And we're going to

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Speaker 1: leave you with this, and then we're going to start

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Speaker 1: our podcast with Esther Parrell. She said, sex is not

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Speaker 1: something you do, it's somewhere you go. Hmm. So our

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Speaker 1: sibling Revel Refamily please enjoy esther Perrell. I just want

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Speaker 1: to say I'm very excited as stare to have this

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Speaker 1: time with you. And before we even start, I did

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Speaker 1: this movie this summer called Knives Out. I did Knives

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Speaker 1: Out too with Catherine Hahn, who was someone I worked

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Speaker 1: with on a movie called How to Lose a Guy

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Speaker 1: in Tenday's twenty years ago, and all she could talk

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Speaker 1: about was your book was Mating in Captivity. She was

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Speaker 1: just completely obsessed. She then gave me your book, and

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Speaker 1: so you were a big theme of our summer. I

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Speaker 1: just wanted to tell you that. And anyway, I'm just

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Speaker 1: so excited to have this opportunity to talk to you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm pleased to be here about you, and I can't

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Speaker 1: wait because I have a lot of problems and I

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Speaker 1: have many situations that I relate to. You know, I

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Speaker 1: watched your Ted talk on infidelity. Yeah, we'll get in.

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Speaker 1: I want to get into all that a stair. I

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Speaker 1: want to start really with where you were born in

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Speaker 1: your family history. Your story is really fascinating and quite

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Speaker 1: traumatic actually for your parents. So I'd love for you

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about where you came from.

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Speaker 1: So I'm born in Belgium, the daughter of two Polish

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Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors who both were the only survivors of their

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Speaker 1: entire families, and who kind of arrived to Belgium by

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Speaker 1: fluke because my father had helped somebody in the concentration

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Speaker 1: camp who was Belgium and said just come with me,

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Speaker 1: and then basically proceeded to stay another five years as

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Speaker 1: illegal refugees in Belgium. But my brother is born in

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Speaker 1: forty six and I arrived quite a few years later,

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Speaker 1: So in a way, I have less of the immediacy

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Speaker 1: of that experience in my veins, but I have the

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Speaker 1: second degree that was transmitted to me. And basically, I

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Speaker 1: would say the legacy of my parents was very much

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Speaker 1: one of we survived this in order to embrace life,

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Speaker 1: in order to really live for all of those who

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Speaker 1: didn't have the opportunity to, and so the quality of

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Speaker 1: a liveness was very, very important. And I think that

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Speaker 1: I received both what you call the traumatic legacy, but

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Speaker 1: also the survival and the revival narrative that accompanied that.

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Speaker 1: And the traumatic legacy sort of how do those two

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Speaker 1: things coexist where you're living in a traumatic legacy but

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Speaker 1: also the sort of revival I mean, the traumatic legacy

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Speaker 1: is basically lost, the loss of everything, your community, your home,

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Speaker 1: your family, your siblings, two hundred people on each side.

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Speaker 1: It's just like massive, massive amounts of loss, and this

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Speaker 1: meant and grief, and then the revival is we're going

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Speaker 1: to rebuild. I think that the first thing in the

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Speaker 1: plot of revival is that is the meaning of a child.

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Speaker 1: You have children in order to replenish, in order to

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Speaker 1: bring back life on the face of death, as an

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Speaker 1: antidote to it. So that's the first thing. It's like

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Speaker 1: we are on some level considered miracle children in that sense.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the first sense is that you know,

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Speaker 1: you carry the names of people, You remember where you

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Speaker 1: come from and where you know, and you never forget

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Speaker 1: where you come from, you know, regardless of where you

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Speaker 1: think you're going to go. So there's this constant connection

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Speaker 1: to a history that is bigger than you. And that

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Speaker 1: is true for your history. I would say that's also

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Speaker 1: true for your problems. Your problems, you know, put them

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Speaker 1: in the bigger perspective and then you'll see if they're

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Speaker 1: really problems. What about what about growing up? You know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes trauma is swept under the rug or legacy or

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Speaker 1: history swept under the rug, and sometimes there's heavily communicated,

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Speaker 1: meaning your parents open about what happened, open about their experience,

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Speaker 1: is their feelings, their emotions, all of that with you

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Speaker 1: as kids. It's a great it's a it's a really

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Speaker 1: you know. I come from my entire community in Antwerp,

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Speaker 1: in Belgium. We're Holocaust survivors. So it wasn't just my family,

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Speaker 1: it was it was not like we were different from

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Speaker 1: the people around us. Yes, we were very different from

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Speaker 1: the people in the neighborhood, but not from the community itself.

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Speaker 1: So it was everybody had similar stories. So as a child, also,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't alone with this whole thing, living in a

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Speaker 1: in a dark secret. So that's a very important difference

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Speaker 1: in terms of legacy of trauma. You're not You're not

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Speaker 1: busy with secrecy, with shame, with lies, with hiding. You know. Now,

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Speaker 1: I was very lucky that I had parents who talked

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Speaker 1: about their experiences, so that really helped. Both of them

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Speaker 1: were amazing storytellers, and I was also lucky. I would

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Speaker 1: say that my parents had a way of telling the

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Speaker 1: story that made it possible for us to listen. We

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Speaker 1: didn't cringe. We didn't have to, you know, away from

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Speaker 1: like stuff that was unbearable to listen to. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, I can't say that they had a keen

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Speaker 1: understanding of child development. So the story was told as is,

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Speaker 1: unedited regardless if you were three, six or nine. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's an important thing. But they they you know, there

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Speaker 1: is a way of looking at the stories of survivors,

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Speaker 1: if the lens was through the lens of victimization, or

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Speaker 1: if the lens was the story was through the lens

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Speaker 1: of heroism. And I have to say my parents had

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Speaker 1: more of the side of heroism. So the stories were

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Speaker 1: stories of resilience, stories of how they survived, how they

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Speaker 1: beat the system, how they found another potato, how they

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Speaker 1: made you know, how they helped each other, how they

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Speaker 1: stayed hopeful, rather than the other side, which I learned

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Speaker 1: much much later. So that's I think a major distinction.

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Speaker 1: I was I was talking about that just because my

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Speaker 1: mom is very invested in, you know, people's mental fitness,

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Speaker 1: and one of the things we were talking about was

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Speaker 1: resiliency and that those who have a tendency to do

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Speaker 1: the more sort of resilient, more optimistic, you know, it

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Speaker 1: is it is what's in the best interest of your

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Speaker 1: mental health is to try to look at the You know,

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Speaker 1: how can we reprogram our brain to actually look in

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Speaker 1: that direction versus what we're probably more programmed to do,

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Speaker 1: which is the other. Do you agree with that? I

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Speaker 1: don't think that that bears true historically, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think that people. You know, if you ask most survivors

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Speaker 1: of many situations, war situations, larger psycho social traumas, they

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Speaker 1: will tell you that a portion of what made them

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Speaker 1: arrive to where they are is luck. A portion is

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Speaker 1: a deep sense of connection to their roots, a sense

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Speaker 1: of reason. I'm fighting for a reason. I'm not just

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Speaker 1: fighting to stay alive. I'm fighting for the people who

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Speaker 1: in my group whold haven't had the opportunity to stay alive.

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Speaker 1: So my survival is bigger than just myself. I'm attached

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Speaker 1: to a longer story. This is true across the globe,

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Speaker 1: so true for Palestinian genes, it's true for many people.

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Speaker 1: That resilience is deeply anchored in a sense of purpose

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Speaker 1: and a sense of meaning. That's the Victor Frankel way

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Speaker 1: of looking at it as well. And then the sense

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Speaker 1: that you had people who helped you It's very rare

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Speaker 1: that people look at the resilience as just an individual plot,

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Speaker 1: me and my skills, me and my you know, my

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Speaker 1: ways of going about it. There were people I connected with,

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Speaker 1: others I found others on the road. I you know,

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Speaker 1: somebody at that moment, was you know, threw me a

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Speaker 1: piece of bread, things like that. It's very much the

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Speaker 1: notion that in the midst of a collective trauma, resilience

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Speaker 1: is also collective. Was this something I mean that you're

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Speaker 1: always interested in psychology or human behavior. I've read that

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Speaker 1: you were interested in it as a teenager, and so

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Speaker 1: do you feel like this was sort of your calling

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Speaker 1: and always spoke to you? I mean, at first, I

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Speaker 1: don't think I was interested in psychology as a calling.

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Speaker 1: I think one is interested in psychology because one wants

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Speaker 1: to understand oneself. Why am I having such problems? Why

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Speaker 1: am I so sad? Why do I have melancholy? You know?

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Speaker 1: Why do I feel like I experienced things that belong

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Speaker 1: to my parents as if they had happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Why do I have those nightmares? Why does this boy

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Speaker 1: not like me? Whatever the thing is that I was

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Speaker 1: probably dealing with. But I also I had a keen curiosity,

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Speaker 1: but like why can people get so evil? You know,

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Speaker 1: and how can the same person who can be so

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Speaker 1: evil one minute turn around and be so sweet to

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Speaker 1: their own children the next minute? Like what is you know,

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Speaker 1: what is evil? And how what is human about how

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Speaker 1: evil we can be? And then the same thing would

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Speaker 1: be true what is pain? Like how do we overcome pain?

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Speaker 1: You know? How do we overcome suffering? What do we

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Speaker 1: do with it? And what really helps? And those kind

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Speaker 1: of questions I think I was really interested in early on,

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Speaker 1: and I think a part of my interested in psychology

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Speaker 1: probably was, you know, there was a sense in my

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Speaker 1: family that, you know, my problems were kind of paled

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Speaker 1: in comparison with the kind of massive suffering that my

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Speaker 1: parents and all the parents of my friends had experienced,

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Speaker 1: and I just, you know, I feel like I don't

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Speaker 1: really have a reason to be sad, and yet I

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Speaker 1: often was, or you know, I didn't know where to go,

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Speaker 1: so I went to read. And I also hated school,

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Speaker 1: So I went to see if people had a different

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Speaker 1: way of talking about children than the way that we

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Speaker 1: were being treated in this very rigid system that I

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Speaker 1: was in. You know, I went to the books to

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Speaker 1: see there must be another way. This cannot be the

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Speaker 1: only only way. You're an outside thinker and actually stumbled

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Speaker 1: upon your calling really just through the way that you

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Speaker 1: were feeling about yourself and your interest in your own

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Speaker 1: human condition. I guess you know. I love that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean you could also say that if you're a

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Speaker 1: ravid reader and you like novels, then you are not

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Speaker 1: by nature interested in psychology. I mean characters in a book.

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Speaker 1: In psychology, it's a keen understanding of how we are.

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Speaker 1: And so I went from that. I was actually more

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Speaker 1: interested first in theater and in literature, and that brought

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Speaker 1: me to psychology. Were your parents very physical with each

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Speaker 1: other and amorous and sensual openly? You know? Is that

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Speaker 1: something that you grew up with witnessing and and sort

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Speaker 1: of taking that on in one direction. My father was

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Speaker 1: very amorous of my mother. He was always kissing her

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Speaker 1: and holding her and and and complimenting her, and he

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Speaker 1: adored her utterly, and my mother was very happy to

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Speaker 1: take the compliments. There was no reciprocation, not exactly. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: the reciprocation came in the form of the receiving. You know,

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Speaker 1: she liked it, but no She wasn't going around saying

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Speaker 1: you look so beautiful, whereas he just couldn't stop saying this,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, and on and on like that,

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Speaker 1: and that we definitely witnessed that. You know. He he

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Speaker 1: always thought that, you know, he had lucked out, that

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Speaker 1: he had. They would never have been a pre a

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Speaker 1: pre war marriage. My mother was more educated. My mother

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Speaker 1: was well read. My mother came from a religious, aristocratic background.

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Speaker 1: My father was rather illiterate. He went to school three

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Speaker 1: years in his life. He was he came from a

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Speaker 1: tiny village. She was much more peasant stock. Wow. And

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Speaker 1: and you know, it was definitely not that would never

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Speaker 1: have happened. M oh wow. And they both lost their

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Speaker 1: everybody for everybody. Oh it's not, isn't that kind of

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Speaker 1: I just it gives me like chills all the way

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Speaker 1: up my body. They were the youngest each one of

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Speaker 1: their families. She had seven siblings, he had nine siblings,

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Speaker 1: and all of them married with kids and everything. So

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Speaker 1: they met on the road of liberation today the day, yes,

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Speaker 1: the day after they were liberated. They just met on

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Speaker 1: the road as they were, you know, people were looking

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Speaker 1: for other people who had come from similar close by

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Speaker 1: towns and may know of somebody, and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: how they hooked up. The man, the man who delivered

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Speaker 1: Oliver and I was is a survivor and he lost

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Speaker 1: his whole family, and he's very very open about story

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Speaker 1: and he literally for I think it was like a

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Speaker 1: year couldn't find anybody in his family, and then found

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Speaker 1: his sister. And yeah, so you know, these stories that

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Speaker 1: we hear are sort of unimaginable, and yet and yet

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Speaker 1: there are still stories like this happening right now as

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Speaker 1: we speak. You know, when you're saying you were studying

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Speaker 1: and sort of interested in families in cultural transition, and

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Speaker 1: how did you find yourself a network? And in your studies,

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Speaker 1: you know, what was the one thing that really stuck

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Speaker 1: out the most when you were really looking at those

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Speaker 1: kinds of transitions for people. So I looked at three groups. Basically,

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Speaker 1: I looked at immigrant families, and among the immigrant families,

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Speaker 1: I studied families who had experienced forced migration and families

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Speaker 1: who had experienced voluntary migration to Europe, to Canada, to

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Speaker 1: the US, various parts of the world. And what was different,

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Speaker 1: How did the experience of having to come affect how

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Speaker 1: people experienced the receiving country, you know, how they adapted

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Speaker 1: what they held on to from their past, from their

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Speaker 1: own culture, how much they were open and willing to

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Speaker 1: embrace the new culture, and things like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I definitely was part of an entire immigrant community that

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Speaker 1: I basically showed up for no reason to this country,

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Speaker 1: had nothing in common with that country, and it was

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Speaker 1: very interesting to see. You know, how do you become

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Speaker 1: a Belgian or European, a Western European. You know, where

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Speaker 1: do you stumble? You know, how does it change the

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Speaker 1: couple relationship, How does it change your attitude towards children,

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Speaker 1: How do you change your attitude towards what feelings can

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Speaker 1: be expressed and not expressed, What is the meaning of

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Speaker 1: family in those cultures, et cetera. Then I got interested

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Speaker 1: very much in where with mixed couples, inter racial, intercultural,

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Speaker 1: into religious families, because they also are going through cultural transition,

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Speaker 1: but it happens in their own living room. They're not

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Speaker 1: crossing borders necessarily, but psychologically they are. And so and

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Speaker 1: I speak multiple languages, and it was just a fascinating

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Speaker 1: way of looking at the world. It was a way

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Speaker 1: of traveling even if I wasn't traveling, you know, And

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Speaker 1: then I got interested in how does the digital really

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Speaker 1: change dynamics in families and relationships? And it's an endlessly

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Speaker 1: fascinating subject. And what I can't even say is that

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Speaker 1: is the one main thing. You know, It kept me

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Speaker 1: busy for twenty years really to look at, you know,

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Speaker 1: what is the attitude to money, to time, to sex,

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Speaker 1: to illness, to boundaries, to loyalty, to the role of

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Speaker 1: the individual, to the importance of happiness. How do all

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Speaker 1: these things, you know line up in particular culture and

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Speaker 1: in particular families, and especially when the family is in transition.

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Speaker 1: How do people you know use the ocean either to

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Speaker 1: strengthen their connection to the past and then use that

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Speaker 1: connection to the past to help them become part of

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Speaker 1: the new place, or how much do they use the

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Speaker 1: oceans to dump the past and to think I'm going

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Speaker 1: to reinvent myself anew And then how much do these

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Speaker 1: roles play themselves out among different family members in one family?

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Speaker 1: M h, what's the future look like? It looks pretty, soweet,

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Speaker 1: it looks pretty a part of this community future fitness baby, Okay,

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Speaker 1: com slash sibling. You talk about the digital age too,

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Speaker 1: and all of these big themes that you're talking about

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Speaker 1: you know. I just we're all constantly evolving, you know,

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Speaker 1: always constantly evolving, even morality, And this is my own opinion,

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Speaker 1: morality has evolved. I just don't believe that there is

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Speaker 1: one singular No, there's one singular way. You know, one

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago morality look different than it did today,

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Speaker 1: it seems now when you're dealing in your practice and

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Speaker 1: sort of when you have studied for so long, how

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Speaker 1: have you seen this digital age, this age of information

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Speaker 1: where everything's at your fingertips shift the dynamic of humanity,

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Speaker 1: you know, from an emotional place, not physical, not computers

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Speaker 1: in your phones necessarily, but you know, dealing with sort

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Speaker 1: of how connected we are, especially with sex, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially with sex nowadays. And our kids they're all the

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Speaker 1: they're growing up now in a different world of sexuality,

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Speaker 1: I mean, their idea of what is supposed to be sex.

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Speaker 1: What would you say is one way it's changed for you?

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Speaker 1: For me, you didn't always have the digital in your life. No,

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Speaker 1: I miss when there was no digital, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: one way it's changed. I feel like I've even gotten lazier,

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Speaker 1: if that's possible. You know, we used to be outside

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Speaker 1: all the time. You know, we were on our bikes,

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Speaker 1: we were in the world more and now it seems

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Speaker 1: like we are more right here, you know. And watching

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Speaker 1: my kids and having to balance that as well, making

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Speaker 1: sure that they do get out of the house and

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Speaker 1: they do get off of their tablets in computers. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, we're living in this world. So

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to deprive them of the future, but

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Speaker 1: I just try to balance it. Really, do you bring

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Speaker 1: your phones to the table? Yeah, I mean I do,

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Speaker 1: you know, Kate, I don't know, but I do. I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty strict with phones. I mean, I have my moments

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Speaker 1: where I get lazy and I don't, but I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: strict with the phone thing. And I even do that

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Speaker 1: for my own sake. It's like I'm not even saying

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Speaker 1: that to my kids. I'm saying it to myself. Yes,

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Speaker 1: if the kids, they're often better than us. I find

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Speaker 1: it to be the bane of my existence for any

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Speaker 1: kind of intimacy and connection and and I don't and

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Speaker 1: I really don't like it. And for me, like for instance,

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Speaker 1: being on the phone in bed, I think is one

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Speaker 1: of the worst things couples can do. And or that

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Speaker 1: for me, at least, I don't want to sit there

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Speaker 1: and sit on our phones not talking to each other.

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Speaker 1: And unless I want to ignore my partner and I'm

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Speaker 1: actively ignoring him, I would rather yeah, exactly, But on

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Speaker 1: the you know what, I don't really want to put

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Speaker 1: on the flip side of that though, Kate, though, like

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Speaker 1: the technollogy can actually advance sort of your intimacy meaning

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Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it. Well, because you

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Speaker 1: can FaceTime each other, you can sext each other, you

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Speaker 1: can have digital sex, you know what I mean, which

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Speaker 1: isn't a bad thing. I mean, we are actors and

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Speaker 1: so we're away from our kids. I can see them

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Speaker 1: every single day now. I mean technology has allowed me

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Speaker 1: to do that, and it's at both ends, right, And

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Speaker 1: you know, laziness used to exist before too, and before that,

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Speaker 1: people watch TV to be lazy sometimes, and sometimes people

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Speaker 1: read the newspaper and were lazy. And sometimes people were

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Speaker 1: in their garden and were lazy. So the idea of

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Speaker 1: not making the effort to engage with the people around

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Speaker 1: us has always existed the need for communication and connection

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Speaker 1: has always existed, and the means change, So then the

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Speaker 1: question becomes, where is the need? Where's the means helping us,

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Speaker 1: and where does the means? Sometimes kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: not really help us to put it in simple language.

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Speaker 1: And it really is a both end. I think after

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Speaker 1: these two years or eighteen months now we are very

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Speaker 1: clear that it's both ends. It has given us tremendous

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Speaker 1: ways to remain connected to people, and at the same

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Speaker 1: time there's a different story, you know. It's very interesting.

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Speaker 1: I spend the pandemic at one point creating a game

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Speaker 1: I Want because I felt that we are this social

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Speaker 1: atrophy that you're describing. I felt like there must be

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Speaker 1: a way to create something tangible that we can use

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Speaker 1: to experience more intimacy, more connection, et cetera. And I

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Speaker 1: never could hold the cards the entire two years of

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Speaker 1: eighteen months. Could you hold it? I was imagining all

429
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: of this this was, you know, and it was. And

430
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: then one day I held it and then I thought,

431
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: you cannot play this thing like that on zoom. Of

432
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: course you can try, you and it will be better

433
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: than not. But there is something about sitting in the

434
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: room and seeing people engage with each other playfully and

435
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: with curiosity that you know. So I am constantly in

436
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 1: the both end. I can do therapy work online and

437
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: I think it is phenomenal that I can do therapy

438
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: work online. I can bring in your friends and your

439
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: siblings in ways that I could never do. I can

440
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: do where should we begin the podcast? I can do

441
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: where should we begin a game online? Or both of them?

442
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: And I thank all the time that I have this tool.

443
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: And at the same time, I notice you know, we

444
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: may meet and speak for an hour and I will

445
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: never know what you look like beyond this. I don't

446
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: know how you move, I don't know how tall you are,

447
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: I don't know your physical language. I hear you speak.

448
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: You know I'm making eye contact with you, but I

449
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 1: know that when I will look at it afterwards, I'm

450
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: looking to the side and we're not really seeing each other,

451
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: and there's no mirror neurons firing at each other, and

452
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: that is there too. So you know you talked about

453
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: was my father touching? Yes, we can. We can speak

454
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: the touch, but it's and sometimes I can even imagine

455
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: the touch on my skin that you would be communicating

456
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: with me via the digital but there is still a

457
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: different experience at this moment. If you hold my hands

458
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: for real. I think that you know that with your

459
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: kid you can FaceTime your kid, and then when you

460
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: hold the hand of your kid or when you hug

461
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: your child, that experience, the way that will be internalized,

462
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: is still very different than the translation that we experience here.

463
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: And we can have this very long conversation about what

464
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: we gain and what we lose. And you're right, we

465
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: live in this world. We want it, and at the

466
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: same time, there is still something in the embodied life

467
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: that I don't want to give up. Oh no, no, no, no,

468
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: that's my love language, physical touch. I need to be touched. Yeah,

469
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 1: thank you? Are you Do you believe in the mystical?

470
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: You know? I mean because I was picturing your parents

471
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: me on this road to freedom, visualizing it. And do

472
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 1: you believe that we are all interconnected somehow and that

473
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: there are there's a greater power at play. I'm not

474
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: talking about God and religion necessarily. I'm just talking about

475
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: energy and the reasons that things happen and your parents

476
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: meeting on this road or is it just hey it,

477
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: fuck it? It just is what it is. I don't know. Well,

478
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: there's a distinction between hey fuck it and destiny stories.

479
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: There's a few things in between. Do I believe in

480
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: the destiny plot? Not exactly it was meant to happen.

481
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: It's fate. That is not a language that is particularly

482
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: interesting to me. But that doesn't mean that I don't

483
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: I relish happenstance and surprise and serendipity and improvisation, and

484
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: then I can say, you know, wow, you could never

485
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: make this up. This doesn't happen for no reason. But

486
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that I consider it destiny and meant

487
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 1: to have. And by the way, in relationships, there is

488
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: a view that says that those of us who have

489
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: a destiny relationship mentality we met it was meant to

490
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: happen are also the ones that are often more easily disillusioned,

491
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: and therefore the ones that give up more faster because

492
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: they basically say, well, at first it was meant to happen,

493
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: and now it's not, Well, it wasn't meant to happen.

494
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: Whereas people who come in with what is called the

495
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: growth mentality, that you come in something brought you together,

496
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: and from there you build and you transform and you

497
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: grow are often people that will more likely invest because

498
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: they have a sense that the agency is their own

499
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: and not what you consider those mystical realities. It was

500
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: fate it was meant to be, It was divine intervention

501
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: and things like that in romantic love. That's actually a

502
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: very important distinction destiny mentality and the growth mentality. It's

503
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: sort of like you're not thinking about the actual act

504
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: of growing in the relationship or the things that you

505
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: bring to the table. You're thinking like this is just

506
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: some unconditional idea of right destiny, Like oh, we're met together, Yeah, okay,

507
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: there we go. I don't have to work on anything

508
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, this shouldn't everything just be the fine? Yeah,

509
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: it's seamless. We have to make no effort. It was

510
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: just meant to be. And then when it becomes difficult,

511
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: people find it harder to know what to do because

512
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: if it was just meant to be and it came

513
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: from outside and it just dropped on me like that,

514
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: in this enchanted state, then you often feel a little

515
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: more bereft. When did when did you? Just because I'm assuming,

516
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 1: I mean, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm assuming just

517
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: based on your your podcast and your book, that relationships

518
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: and the core that being sort of the core center

519
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: now of most families is that relationship that that's become

520
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: a big part, if not the most of the part

521
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: of the work that you like to sort of invest in, right,

522
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a predilection for couples work. Yes, theirs,

523
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: I am I need you? Why does she need me?

524
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: It's interesting because because because well no, because I always

525
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: say in my life, the thing that's always been consistent

526
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: for me is work. Like the things that come easy

527
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: are my friendships, my work relationships, my relationship to my career,

528
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: my relationship to my kids. And the thing that's always

529
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: have been a challenge for me are the is the couple.

530
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: Is the is the actual relationship and you know sort

531
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: of how it moves and how it grows, and my

532
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: and my tolerance no so so and then for me

533
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: and then and then we'll give you some context here.

534
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: For me, relationships have always been smooth. I've been in

535
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: love twice and in the third time I've been married.

536
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: I'm twenty years in. We'll talk about infidelities and how

537
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: we came out of it amazingly, which is why your

538
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: podcast sort of resonate or sorry, your ted Talk resonated

539
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: with me so much, but I hope my poodcast too.

540
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: It does too. But this specific question is about that's

541
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: very tough yeah. But so for me, my insecurities come

542
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: more sort of form in the form of my career

543
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: or am I good enough? Or you know, I'm comparing

544
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: myself and I can get depressed around those areas. Now,

545
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: our dad left when we were five or six years old,

546
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: four years old, three years old for Kate and sort

547
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: of that was a big impact in our lives. It

548
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: affected her a little bit differently than it affected me.

549
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: You know. So going back to Kate, why can't she

550
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: have a happy relationship, It's not about it's not about

551
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: having a happy relationship. I think for me, it's like it's, well,

552
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: you know, can I reframe the question for you? Yeah,

553
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: what is it that you know you do in your

554
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: friendships and that makes you so good at being a

555
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: friend that you find challenging to bring into your romantic relationship.

556
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: That's a great question. That's a great question. Well, I

557
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: would say I have less expectation from my friendships in

558
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: terms of like what I need from them on a

559
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: daily basis. One. Two, I don't have to see them

560
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: all the time. Like I'm easier with sort of having

561
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: more independence. It's easier for me to be independent with

562
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: my friends. That goes together with expectations. Right, expectations means

563
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: you need that person, and that means you depend on

564
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 1: that person, and that means that person has a certain

565
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: power over you. Right by definition, it's not negative positive,

566
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: it's just and with your friends, you temper your expectations,

567
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: which then makes you feel that you are less dependent

568
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: on them, less needing of them, and then less disappointed

569
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: in them and less resentment resentful of them. To me,

570
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: it always is, you know what happens? You know, why

571
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: can you temper your expectations with your friends? You take

572
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: it for granted because it's easy for you to do,

573
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: but in fact, in many situations that's not the case.

574
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: For people. They come with a lot of different expectations

575
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: to their friends. They are continuously in situations where they

576
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: think I'm a better friend to you than you are

577
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: to me. It's not equally, etcetera, etcetera. You, because it's

578
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: an easy one, you say, no issue there, and I

579
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: say to you, instead of looking at why you have

580
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: a problem here, switch the model and ask yourself, what

581
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: is it that I can do in every one of

582
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: these other situations that what do they throw out of me?

583
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: The work one, the friendship one, the parental one. These

584
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: are all difficult systems, they happen to not be difficult

585
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: for you. Therefore, look at your strengths in those relationships

586
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: and then see what you can transfer into your relationship

587
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: with him. That's coming from a resilience model, rather than

588
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: the way you framed your question, which is to come

589
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: from a deficiency model. What's wrong here? What's missing here?

590
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: What can't I do here? That's where I was going.

591
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: How big of a part does sex play in a relationship?

592
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: And I asked this because it depends on the people. Well,

593
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: for me, yeah, you're right, you're right, but it depends

594
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: on the people. But here's the thing though, I always

595
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: say this. I'm like, if I don't have an incredible

596
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: sexual relationship with my partner, then I might as well

597
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: be living with my best friend John and raising kids

598
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: together as friends. You know. And now, if that is

599
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: the model, that's for you, great. If everyone, well, you

600
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: answered for yourself, You answered for yourself. For you, that

601
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: connection is an very important part of the intimate bond.

602
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: But for other people that is not the story. See.

603
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: The thing about a question like that is that it

604
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: presumes a kind of a universal norm. And this is

605
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: absolutely not the case. If I have one message about relationships,

606
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: it's usually that there isn't a one size fits all.

607
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: There are some people for whom. Actually, to be with

608
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: my best friend John in a more platonic co parenting arrangement,

609
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: in a deep sense of friendship and affection is more

610
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: than I've ever hoped for. Because sex has been cruel,

611
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: sex has been painful, sex has been abusive, sex has

612
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: been all kinds of things but pleasurable and intimately connected.

613
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: For example, or I am struggling with all kinds of

614
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: issues of health, and therefore sex is not that kind

615
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: of sex. It's a different sexuality that doesn't just involve

616
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: the act of love making in the kind of being

617
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: as in vagina heterosexual model that often is the dominant model.

618
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: So even when you say sex, what are we talking about? Well,

619
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I guess. What I'm saying, though, is

620
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: like when you're starting out with someone and the sex

621
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: is hot and heavy and it's really great, and then

622
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: as you continue on in your relationship, one of the

623
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: partners is like, well let's keep that going. The other

624
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: one sort of fizzles out. Now you're separate. Now now

625
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: you've got a divide, a sexual divide. How do you

626
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: remedy something like that, because I feel like that alone

627
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: can could destroy a relationship. But it depends why you

628
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: have a divide. The divide maybe because imagine that that

629
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: person who used to be so present, you know, is

630
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: no longer paying much attention to you at all. You're

631
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: constantly having to deal with you know, when a person

632
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: is on the phone while you're talking to them, you

633
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: have a sense of ambiguous loss. They're physically present, but

634
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: they're emotionally absent, you know, so you're you're there but

635
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: not there, And that's when the other person feels a

636
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: certain kind of loneliness that is really you know, it's

637
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: like it's easier to be alone when I'm totally by

638
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: myself in the end, from that place, for a lot

639
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,959
Speaker 1: of people, sex becomes like the last thing on their mind.

640
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: So what is the divide? Is the divide rooted in loneliness,

641
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: in resentment, in in in you know, in unresolved conflict,

642
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: in particular dynamics in the relationship, in health concerns, in

643
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: in in depression, in mental health, mental health issues that

644
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: the divide in order to know what to do and

645
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: how you remedy it. You really have to understand what

646
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: is making me shut down with you? And am I

647
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 1: only shut down with you? Or am I shut down

648
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 1: as a as a whole because because I've disconnected from

649
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: myself in such a way that I am out of

650
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: touch with my own erotic self? Is it depression? Is

651
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: it anxiety? Is it? You know? Whatever are the major

652
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: things that may be affecting me? And from that place

653
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: you then say, what is it that needs to be

654
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: remedied here? You know, why is one person shying away

655
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: from the other and what is the other person doing?

656
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: Are you getting angry? Are you getting impatient? Do you

657
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: feel like you know you're not getting you do? How

658
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: is that being dealt with? How is the distancer and

659
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: the pursuer? How is the dance between these two people?

660
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: How are they handling this desired discrepancy? Is it because

661
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: you basically have had sex the way you like it

662
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: for all these years without ever really have asked me

663
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: what I wanted? And in the beginning, I was willing

664
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: to do everything you like because I wanted you. I mean,

665
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: there are so many plots. Without the narrative, you don't

666
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: know the truth. That's why you know, that's the most

667
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: important thing. I mean, that does make a lot of sense,

668
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: you know, when I'm when you know, I always believe

669
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: that what is happening in the bedroom is probably usually

670
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: a pretty good mirror, unless it's performative. It's a pretty

671
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: good mirror of how you're communicating with each other in

672
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: your daily life. It's you know and what you and

673
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: how deep you know about someone else's desires. Like I

674
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: find that to be almost more intimate than the act itself,

675
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: That is that you can actually express to someone like

676
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: what your desires are. He licks the mattress, the wonderful,

677
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: wonderful mattress. Bingham, Oh yeah, is now on a helix,

678
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: is feeling it? So I got yeah, I was like,

679
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: bing I got being a new bed and he needed

680
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: a mattress. I was like, okay, I'm going to get

681
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: on a helix because it comes with easy and it's comfortable,

682
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: and he loves it. So let me explain how this works.

683
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: So he looks sleep has a quiz. It takes two

684
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: minutes to complete, and it matches your body type and

685
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: your sleep preference to the perfect mattress for you. So

686
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 1: why would you want to buy a mattress? It's made

687
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: for someone else. Everybody's unique and they know that. So

688
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: there's all these different mattress models that you get to

689
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: choose from soft, medium, firm. You know, mattresses that are

690
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: great for cooling you down if you sleep, hot, mattresses

691
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: that are great for spinal alignment to prevent mourning aches

692
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: and pains. And they even have a Helix Plus mattress

693
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: for plus sized sleepers. So I was matched with a

694
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: Midnight Lucks and that is perfect for my personality because

695
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: it same with me. I'm a night owl. Oh really yeah,

696
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: I'm a midnight guy, are you. I'm so happy I'm

697
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: not a night person. I'm such a morning person. By

698
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: like eight thirty, I'm like, I can feel my pillow.

699
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm like, it's like I'm like hypnotized. So

700
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: go to helix dot com slash Sibling take their two

701
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: minute sleep quiz. They'll match you to a customized mattress

702
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: that'll give you the best sleep if your life. Helix

703
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: is offering up to two hundred dollars off of all

704
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners at

705
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: Helix Sleep slash Sibling. One of the things that's always

706
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: bothered me about the sort of heterosexual male female dynamic

707
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: is that for some reason, men are the ones with

708
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 1: all of these like sexual fantasy ideas, and that they

709
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: hide them instead of actually encouraging the communication of the

710
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 1: things that they're interested in or want to get into. Vulnerability,

711
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 1: you have to feel vulnerable enough and okay enough and

712
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: safe enough to be able to say those things or

713
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: and risk that it might be something that your partner.

714
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: It might make them feel insecure, or it might make

715
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: them feel uncomfortable, or it might make them You have

716
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: to enter that field of intimacy and conversation so that

717
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: you can get closer and understand each other. So if

718
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: Daniel just brought home a strap on and was like,

719
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: I'm ready to go, you'd be okay with that. I'm

720
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,959
Speaker 1: sure we have to talk about you. See. What's so

721
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: interesting is that that is true, kid, and so too

722
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: is The quality of revelation is shaped by the quality

723
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: of the listening. If you anticipate judgment, ridicule, humiliation, which

724
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: are three major vulnerabilities around male sexuality, then you don't

725
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: reveal you. Basically, the majority of the time people will

726
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: say what they think is okay to say that they

727
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: think the other person can bear listening. And that's why

728
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: I you know when you said, it's all more than

729
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: the act itself. Yes, sex is not something you do.

730
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 1: It is a place you go with yourself and with another.

731
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: What's this trip you take? Where are you going, what

732
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: are you connecting with? What are you expressing? It's language

733
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: and that is back to your question. Is like the

734
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 1: person who gets disinterested is often disinterested in the plot.

735
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: And then because the act without the plot doing it

736
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: is not really the only thing. It's the meaning you

737
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: attached to. It is where it takes you. There's people

738
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: can do it for centuries and me feel absolutely notice. Yeah,

739
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: on that point, I've experienced emotional sex only in the

740
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 1: last three or four years, meaning of course you're emotionally

741
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: connected with the person that you're making love to when

742
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: it's your wife, but very physical and amazing. My sex

743
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: life has always been amazing with Aaron, my wife. But

744
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: something happened. I went to I just did a lot

745
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: of deep, deep work on myself and I went to

746
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: this place called the Hoffman Institute. You did huffmanedlah, Yeah,

747
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: and it was incredible for me in dealing with all

748
00:45:54,920 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: the stuff I came out of that and with this

749
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: vulnerability that I have never experienced in my life, and

750
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: this freedom because I was unafraid to be vulnerable and

751
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: I didn't care that this perception that I had that

752
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: people would think that my vulnerability was not masculine enough.

753
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: Yes it was weak, right. It totally switched and my

754
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: sex life, our sex life, became something that was just

755
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: inexplicable almost. It took it to a level wonderful and

756
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: I for the first time experienced what it was like

757
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,479
Speaker 1: to be truly vulnerable. And then we talk about sort

758
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: of allowing my wife my vulnerability allowed it eron allowed

759
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: Aaron to open up too, and to go places that

760
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: we have never gone before physically and emotionally as well.

761
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: And it was really a beautiful, beautiful experience for me,

762
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: you know, and it fizzle, it fades a little bit

763
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: because you live in this bubble for a minute, you know.

764
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: But what were we going to say about emotional sex. Well,

765
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: that was the first time I had actually felt connected,

766
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: like super connected, and just like deeply I agree that

767
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: erotic intimacy becomes a very deeply layered revelation of oneself. Yeah,

768
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: that you love your inner truth through this language called sexuality.

769
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: You go to do a week long, intensive, insight oriented journey,

770
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: and you relish the complexities and the layers of your

771
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: inner life that you're just discovering. And then another part

772
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: of you wishes for simplicity. And I think that we

773
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: constantly straddled both, you know, a kind of a fantasy

774
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: of simplicity, but also a deep acceptance of complexity. And

775
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: if you ask me what interests me in relationships and

776
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: in human relationships and in couples and in love, it's

777
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: that it's that ruality that I'm deeply fascinated in. And

778
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: I've always wanted to find a way to make the

779
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: complex accessible and to talk about what many of us

780
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: have sensed and somehow know, but have not necessarily had

781
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 1: the words to put to it, and to help people

782
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: have difficult conversations. You know, that's part of why I,

783
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: you know, I do it in therapy. I do it

784
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: by creating a game. I want to facilitate these conversations.

785
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: But it is about how to facilitate a deep engagement

786
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: with the part of our life, our relationships, that is

787
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: central to all of us and that many of us

788
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: wish we'd sometimes lived better but it doesn't always happen

789
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: this way. Yeah, Like what if you don't have a

790
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: willing partner? You know, what if the things that you

791
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: desire are just unwilling or just constantly overlooked. I mean,

792
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: then you know, because it's one thing to talk about,

793
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 1: you know, it can't always work well. It depends which

794
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: culture you live in, right. If you live in a

795
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 1: culture that puts individual happiness at a center, you're going

796
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: to think very differently. And when I say culture, it's

797
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 1: your personal culture, your family culture, and your global culture.

798
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: Do you live in the model of individual happiness at

799
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: a center, then you're going to think very differently about

800
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: how you're going to get your needs met and if

801
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: you even should come with needs, and if you're allowed

802
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: to have expectations and what expectations are okay, And all

803
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: of that is mediated in a power structure and in

804
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: a cultural tradition versus if you live in a place

805
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 1: where you know you can't always get what you want

806
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: and that is marriage, and you do the best with

807
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: the cards that you have in your hands, and you're

808
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: going to have to just live with that and somehow

809
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: tolerate it. That's a very different you know, map for

810
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: how you're going to deal with your frustrations and your dissatisfactions.

811
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: You know, did you learn to suffer? Did you learn

812
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: to accept sacrifice? Did you learn to accept the idea

813
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: that you know you're never going to get what you want?

814
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: Did you learn that what you wanted was too much?

815
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: Did you learn that you were too much to handle?

816
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: You know, there's so many pieces to how we deal

817
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: with this is the work of the therapist is to

818
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: really help unpack that. And I'm sorry I can't give

819
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: you simplicity I feel. I mean, I am a free frolic.

820
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: What do you think is kind of the most common core,

821
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: whether it be a problem or a situation that you find,

822
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: of all the work that you've done with patients and relationships,

823
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: that kind of comes up all the time. There are

824
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: really various ways to answer this. Really there is not

825
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: one answer, but the one that comes up at this

826
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: moment for me is if you look at it in

827
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: terms of what is problematic, I would say that sometimes

828
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: what is problematic is that people are too close. They

829
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: are fused. There is nothing one person can feel that

830
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,760
Speaker 1: the other person doesn't personalize. There's not enough air between them.

831
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: What one person breeds out, the other person breeds in,

832
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: and it is too enmeshed. And sometimes you're dealing with

833
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: relationships that are too far apart, where one person can

834
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: be weeping and the other one barely notices it and

835
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 1: there is a gap between them and they're not connected enough.

836
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: I think that that is one major continuum. Is there

837
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: a need for more connection and more closeness? Is there

838
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: a need for more differentiation and more separateness? That would

839
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: be one major access on which you look. Then you

840
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 1: look vertically. Is where this is the hierarchy? So it's

841
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:05,359
Speaker 1: love and power connection, the continuum of connection and love

842
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: affection and the continuum of power, hierarchy and structure. Is

843
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: there a clear structure, Is there a fluidity of power?

844
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: Is there a reciprocity of power? Or is there a

845
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: very strict hierarchy? Is it highly structured or is it

846
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: completely chaotic? That would be the next axis. I think

847
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: that that is your basic primary map that you can

848
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: take to look at relationships. What about in your relationships?

849
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: Since this is your world, like, how do you how

850
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: do you even approach your own relationships? It's like, oh man,

851
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: this is I'm going to be analyzed to the to

852
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: the nth degree, or do you make mistakes? You know,

853
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 1: can you self analyze? And can you spend psychologists too?

854
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 1: So typically when you ask us a question, I think

855
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: one of us would say, who do you want to

856
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: hear from? Because we probably will have very different answers,

857
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: And the ability to live with these multiple stories is

858
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: probably a strength as well. We don't have one coherent narrative.

859
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: We don't agree necessarily on what makes it work. We

860
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: have a different view of it and it changes, you know.

861
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: I think the best thing I've ever been able to

862
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: describe was that because you talked about, you know, the

863
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: two loves and then the third person that you are with.

864
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 1: I think that many people today in the West are

865
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: going to have more than one relationship, one love relationship

866
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: in their adult life, and some of us are going

867
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: to do it with the same person. So I would

868
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: say we have had many marriages to each other. My

869
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: answer is not the same when I met him in

870
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: my twenties that I do decades later. Now, you know,

871
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: the power dynamics have shifted, the balance of interdependence has shifted.

872
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: The structure changed from when we had little ones to

873
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: now having no one, none of them in the house

874
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: with us, to what happened to us physically, to our health,

875
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: to the loss of our parents. It's that all of

876
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: that changed the way that we relate in that sense.

877
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: But yes, there was a certain language of affection that

878
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: has remained very central. A humor, shared interests, a sense

879
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 1: of adventure, all of that at the same time, as

880
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, then comes a pandemic. Then you suddenly realized, wow,

881
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: we are fragile, we are considered elderly. Suddenly, you know,

882
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: never thought of myself as elderly, but here we are.

883
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: And so suddenly you begin to think about vulnerability differently.

884
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's not the same as the vulnerability definition

885
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: that I would have when I think of myself for

886
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: him in our thirties. So it's that, and I think, really,

887
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 1: what is important for me? It's not longevity per se,

888
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: it's really how do couples maintain a sense of a liveness,

889
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: a vibrancy, of vitality in friendship. When the vitality and

890
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: the vibrancy gets lost, the relationship fizzles out and you

891
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: move on to other friends. And by definition you think

892
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 1: of a friendship as a very vibrant relationship. The same

893
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: thing needs to happen in romantic love. Romantic love unfortunately

894
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: has the feature of starting out uber vibrant and alive,

895
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 1: an erotic erotic in the sense alife, not just sexual,

896
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: and then it fizzles out, and often it is because

897
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: of laziness. As you were describing early on. There's a

898
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: sense of complacency and a sense of bringing the leftovers home,

899
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, and the best goes elsewhere. And it's that

900
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: it's how do you let people understand that if this

901
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: needs to be watered it's a relationship that really needs

902
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 1: active engagement. You don't have this fascinating conversations with your

903
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: girlfriend and boring conversations with your partner kind of thing.

904
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: You can do it. We do it. We all do it.

905
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: But those of us who manage to really keep it alive,

906
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: when they sense that, they infuse energy, they resuscity. They understand,

907
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 1: you know, we have got to engage, and that is

908
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: everybody knows it, and for some reason it's very hard

909
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: for people to do it. I we are going to

910
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: end on that now because I know you have to go,

911
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: and I just have to say I want to talk

912
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: to you again. I'm going to call you offline. I hope.

913
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 1: There's so many stories I wanted to tell you speak again,

914
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: and I just love the work that you do and

915
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: I want everyone to know. Your podcast Where Should We

916
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: Begin is brilliant. Your book Made in Captivity is a

917
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: must read. And you've got that new game coming, which

918
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: is also called Where We Should Begin to Write It.

919
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 1: It's out, it's out, it's good out. It's up there

920
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: to play and to get before you go too. I've

921
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 1: been playing sexual games forever, like I have created these

922
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 1: games with my wife. Do you know the game Djenga?

923
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: You know where you pull out the pieces and it

924
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: topples over yep, okay, And then we also played sexual Yachtzi,

925
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: but sexual Jenga is good too. We're on each piece,

926
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: you write out a desire, something physically that you want

927
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: done to you, and you can be as x rated

928
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: as you want to be. And when you pull out

929
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: the piece, you read it and it says something crazy

930
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: like maybe intercourse from behind first ten seconds total and

931
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: then boom, then you're done. You got to stop. And

932
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: then you keep pulling out pieces and you're doing these

933
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: things to each other and you can't finish the game

934
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: because can I make a suggestion yes, all right, you

935
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: get yourself. Where should we begin the game of stories?

936
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: There are cards with pink triangle. Those are the sex questions.

937
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 1: If you want to play with your kids or with

938
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: your friends, you can take those out. If you want

939
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: to play with Aaron, you can just play those. Yeah,

940
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:09,959
Speaker 1: and then you come back and you tell me, after

941
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: having played those cards if you learn things about each

942
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: other that you had never shared. Oh, this is so fun.

943
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, so much for sharing, Thank you

944
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: so much. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson

945
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Alison. President editor is Josh Wendish.

946
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: Music by Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mark. If you want

947
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: to show us some love, rate the show and leave

948
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: us a review. This show is powered by simple Cast