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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George

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Speaker 1: Nori with you, Doctor w Keith Campbell with us. Keith's

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Speaker 1: website is his name linked up at Coast to Coast

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Speaker 1: am dot com talking about the latest book, The New

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Speaker 1: Science of Narcissism, Keith, does a narcissist have to have

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Speaker 1: all the traits or maybe maybe they could just have

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Speaker 1: one or two? Oh no, I mean, narcissism is always

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Speaker 1: a kind of a combination of trades with different amounts.

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Speaker 1: And when you talk about it clinically, they'll give you

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Speaker 1: nine specific descriptors and they give you a number five

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Speaker 1: of nine, so there's a real specific number in the

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Speaker 1: clinical level. But really these traits go together, and some

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Speaker 1: people have more than others. So for example, a trade

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Speaker 1: like vanity, like being really into your appearance, some people

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Speaker 1: are narcissistic, are really vain, others not so much. But

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Speaker 1: in general people are narcissistic or just sort of more

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Speaker 1: focused on looking attractive and high end status. Well, I

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Speaker 1: was going to say, I no attorney here in Saint

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Speaker 1: Louis who is pretty prominent here and he has to

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Speaker 1: have the latest clothes, the latest shoes, the latest tie,

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Speaker 1: the I mean he's meticulous with his clothes. Now, is

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Speaker 1: that a narcissist or does he just like style? You know?

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Speaker 1: That's the other thing is you can be somebody who's

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Speaker 1: really into fashion and you're into it because you're just

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Speaker 1: really you know, it's really a design thing or some

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Speaker 1: other reasons or doesn't just have to be attention seeking

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Speaker 1: or status seeking. But if somebody who's really into fashion

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Speaker 1: and really into status and really into having lots of

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Speaker 1: shallow relationships with people and with somewhat dishonest and business dealings,

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Speaker 1: I think, well, maybe that person's a little bit narcissistic.

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Speaker 1: What about social media with all this stuff happening right now,

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Speaker 1: with the use of our smartphones, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, all

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Speaker 1: these things, what has that contributed to this? It is

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Speaker 1: just I mean, that's just such a can of worm.

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Speaker 1: So so back, you know, back when Facebook started, you know,

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Speaker 1: we first looked at narcissism, and what we found was

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Speaker 1: that people who are narcissists they've had more friends on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: They just had more connections, and they promoted themselves more,

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Speaker 1: They had more attractive photos, they had more attractive, you know,

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Speaker 1: more self promoting content on their Facebook page. And since then,

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Speaker 1: people have looked at this a lot, and it looks

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Speaker 1: over and over that people on social media, whether it's

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Speaker 1: Twitter or Facebook or you know, one of the Chinese sites,

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Speaker 1: they tend to have more friends or followers on social media,

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Speaker 1: and they tend to do spend more attention, you know,

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Speaker 1: putting out more selfies. They tend to put more you know,

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Speaker 1: attention into their parents tend to talk about how successful

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Speaker 1: they are. So there's a lot of attention paid to

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Speaker 1: self promotion on social media with narcissism. Second question though,

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Speaker 1: is does social media make people narcissistic? And that doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to be the case. I mean, at least it

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be something we have we can find.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be that people are narcissistic really like

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Speaker 1: social media and it's it's reinforcing for them, so they

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Speaker 1: you know, if you really think you're attractive and you

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Speaker 1: take a selfie, it's easy and it feels great, but

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Speaker 1: people who aren't as narcissistic find it harder. So take

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Speaker 1: if you don't feel that good about yourself and you

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Speaker 1: take a selfie, it's kind of hard. You don't look

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Speaker 1: how you like how you look, and so people are

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Speaker 1: getting kind of depressed on social media. And I got

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Speaker 1: to tell you with COVID nineteen Keith, I think social

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Speaker 1: media has helped a lot of people because of this

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Speaker 1: isolation that's involved with it. Oh, oh for sure. And

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think things like you know,

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Speaker 1: Zoom or any of those sites FaceTime where people and

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Speaker 1: actually just communicate face to face is better than being

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Speaker 1: you know, just over the phone or isolated. And social media.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say social media isn't bad. It's the

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Speaker 1: same way if I look on your television screen, you're

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Speaker 1: going to see more narcissists than you would in a normal,

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Speaker 1: normal place in the world. Doesn't Does a narcissist know

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Speaker 1: there are narcissists? Yes, that was one of those questions

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Speaker 1: that I think we struggled with as a as the

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Speaker 1: field for a long time. But people with narcissistic have

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Speaker 1: have some awareness of that. They're like, yeah, I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, I kind of think I'm a big deal.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of how I am. People tell me that

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Speaker 1: they also this is a newer finding, but they also

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Speaker 1: seem to some awareness that you know, being self centered

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Speaker 1: causes problems, and this is something we thought, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: people just oblivious to it. But there seems to be

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Speaker 1: awareness of this, at least in a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: It seems like what's going on as people just say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, if it choices between me and somebody else,

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Speaker 1: will just pick myself. Can you can you tell if

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Speaker 1: you meet someone you personally if they're a narcissist or not.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I don't have any magic I don't

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Speaker 1: have any magic powers. I look for some cues maybe,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not sure. Often with me, I find if

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Speaker 1: I really like somebody, I meet somebody that seems really confident,

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Speaker 1: like about oh man, I like that guy, we sort

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Speaker 1: of go I better be a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: red flag, you know. But I mean that's how how

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Speaker 1: much I think narcissism can be really attractive when you

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Speaker 1: first meet it. But but you know, I look for

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Speaker 1: things like how people treat other people, not so much

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Speaker 1: how they treat me because I you know, I'm a professor,

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Speaker 1: so people are nice to me because they have some status.

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Speaker 1: But you know, how they treat a waiter for the

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Speaker 1: restaurant and how they treat it uber driver, and how

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Speaker 1: they treat people lower in status. Look at how the

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Speaker 1: conversations go around, how they talking about themselves, and you know,

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Speaker 1: things like that. But I don't, I don't have any radar.

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Speaker 1: Is narcissism a disorder? You know, it's it's a thing

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Speaker 1: that I think is really when we're talking about about

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Speaker 1: the individual, it's just a way people. It's it's a

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Speaker 1: character style, it's a way people exist, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: something that works for us. It's some degree. So narcissism

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Speaker 1: is something that's probably a trade off because it's really

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Speaker 1: useful in social situations. It's really good in competitive situations.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, good in some context, and it's not

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Speaker 1: good in orders and others. But I think when it

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Speaker 1: becomes so extreme that you can't turn it off. So

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Speaker 1: maybe like when you can be tough on the court,

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Speaker 1: but when you go home, you're still kind of being

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Speaker 1: tough with people. You can't turn it off. You can't

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Speaker 1: turn it off. You're just at the market. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're competing with people at the marketing, Like, come on, man,

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Speaker 1: turn off. You can't turn off. And that's when it

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Speaker 1: becomes more of a disorder. When it's when it's just

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Speaker 1: too extreme and you can't control it. Do narcissists like themselves?

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Speaker 1: You know it really it really depends on the form.

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Speaker 1: So with the grandiose form of narcissism, it seems to

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Speaker 1: be they do like themselves. And there is an idea

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Speaker 1: that was very common still very common that well deep

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Speaker 1: down inside that you know, people who are more grandiose

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Speaker 1: narcissists don't like themselves. So maybe they say they're awesome,

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Speaker 1: but deep down they feel ashamed or they really, you know,

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Speaker 1: think they're a bad person. We haven't really found evidence

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Speaker 1: of that. So it seems like narcissists or grandiose really

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Speaker 1: like themselves on the surface, and deep down they kind

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Speaker 1: of like themselves too. The more vulnerable form of narcissism,

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Speaker 1: it seems to be that they just don't like themselves

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Speaker 1: that much, but they often have grandiose fantasies. So in general,

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Speaker 1: they have low self esteem. They you know, I think

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Speaker 1: they're not as great, they're not getting as respected as

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Speaker 1: much as they should be. People don't like them as much,

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Speaker 1: they're not noticed as much as they should be. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, they sometimes have fantasies about you know,

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Speaker 1: being having high status or having success or fame or

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Speaker 1: power money. Um so so so there you have much

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Speaker 1: more negative self self views. Can you have those successes

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Speaker 1: and be a narcissist? Oh, for sure you can. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know you can be. I mean many

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Speaker 1: there's many successful narcissists. There's many successful psychopaths in the world.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's many of them, unfortunately. Um and

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Speaker 1: people do do very well with that more grandiose quality. Um.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people ask like, well, if you're a president or

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're you know, they're a great person,

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Speaker 1: is it really narcissism? And the answer is, I think yeah.

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Speaker 1: If you're always thinking about yourself and how much your

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Speaker 1: ego matters, it's narcissism. Whether you're a football star or

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Speaker 1: you're you know, a kind of a high school coach.

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Speaker 1: Either way, if you're ego involved, it's it's got the

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Speaker 1: narcissism to it. I'm I don't want to knock the guy,

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Speaker 1: but would you say President Trump as a narcissist because

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Speaker 1: he fits some of these traits to you watching Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's there's very different perspectives of Trump. So

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Speaker 1: we did a couple studies on this, but one of

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Speaker 1: our grad students, and we had people rate the personality

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Speaker 1: of Trump using these very specific personality traits, and we

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Speaker 1: were able to convert those into narcissism. We had Trump

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Speaker 1: supporters and Clinton supporter Hillary Clinton supporters rate Trump, and

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Speaker 1: what we found is that both Trump and and Clinton

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Speaker 1: supporters thought, yeah, you know, I mean Trump is kind

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Speaker 1: of a bold, brash, narcissistic character. What he is, that's

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Speaker 1: you know, no one doubts it, but Clinton supporters C.

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Speaker 1: Trump is you know, very self centered, very unstable, very incompetent,

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Speaker 1: so sort of a dangerous um, out of control, self

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Speaker 1: centered narcissist. Do you have to be a narcissist to

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Speaker 1: support the narcissist? No, okay, I don't think so. If

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Speaker 1: that were the case, we know it would no one

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Speaker 1: support anyone but the Trump supporter. C. Trump is somebody

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Speaker 1: who is patriotic, who is competent, who is like an aggressive,

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Speaker 1: successful businessman. I have a friend, Keith, who sold his business,

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Speaker 1: very successful businessman, very successful, and he knows Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: very well and he claims that he's one of the

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Speaker 1: greatest guy he's ever known. Now, the guy I know

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Speaker 1: is a great guy. He's happy, he's generous. I've seen

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Speaker 1: him help people. But he says that this president is

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Speaker 1: one of the greatest presidents who would ever rule or

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Speaker 1: be a president if they just let him. But in

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Speaker 1: terms of who he is, he just thinks the world

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Speaker 1: of him. So well, what do you say about that. Well,

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Speaker 1: the challenge with somebody like like a public figure like

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is people me. I mean, we're not rating

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Speaker 1: his personality. We're rating we're rating his public persona. You know,

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Speaker 1: his public personality rights how he comes across, but he

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Speaker 1: comes across. I don't know him. And this thing you

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Speaker 1: find with Donald Trump is he's very private. I've never

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Speaker 1: met him. The only you know, and the only chance

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Speaker 1: I know I talked to somebody who worked on The Apprentice.

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Speaker 1: That's as close as I've ever gotten to Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: So it's hard to get to really get to know

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Speaker 1: somebody like that. If there is this side that comes out,

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Speaker 1: I've heard stories about it from people like you're telling

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Speaker 1: me of this sort of generosity, and I've heard stories

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Speaker 1: of meanness. So I've heard both sides from different people.

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Speaker 1: But it's very hard for me to know the truth.

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Speaker 1: I just don't know. I'm basically just using people to

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Speaker 1: rate a public figure. If a narcissist knows that he

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Speaker 1: or she is one, should they fix that? And if

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Speaker 1: they do, what do they fix? Yeah? I think that.

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Speaker 1: I think it's something that if people want to change,

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Speaker 1: is it's worth changing in terms of what to fix,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the biggest, the biggest challenges with

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Speaker 1: narcissism is the interpersonal cost. It's if you're a narcissistic

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Speaker 1: how do you keep your marriage together? How do you

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Speaker 1: if you're a narcissistic boss, how do you do business?

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Speaker 1: Or how do you keep your employees around? How do

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Speaker 1: you do business with other people if they can't trust you,

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Speaker 1: if your boorish at parties and you know, not fun

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Speaker 1: to be around, and so where you want to do

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Speaker 1: a lot of the work with narcissism yourself is not

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Speaker 1: so much focusing on Yeah, you've got you've got dreams,

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Speaker 1: and you want to be great, and you you know

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Speaker 1: you're you're really proud of yourself, and you want to

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Speaker 1: go out there and kicked by it. I might great,

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Speaker 1: do that, but really focus on being a nice person,

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Speaker 1: being a decent human being, having passion, and treating people well.

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Speaker 1: And if you just do that, if you just make

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Speaker 1: the effort to be a decent person. That's gonna that's

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Speaker 1: going to solve a lot of your narcissism problems right there.

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Speaker 1: And if that's not enough, the other thing to do

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Speaker 1: is just really focus on taking responsibility for what you do.

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Speaker 1: When you when you make mistakes, when you take advantage

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Speaker 1: of people, take responsibility for it. Apologize. If you just

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Speaker 1: do something like that, you can have your dreams, you

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Speaker 1: can have your ambition. It's not gonna it's not gonna

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Speaker 1: destroy you the way it will if you're cruel and

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Speaker 1: mean and exploitative to others. Would you say there's anything

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Speaker 1: shocking in the book to do Science of Narcissism. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Now it is shocking, isn't. I don't do

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Speaker 1: true crime. I don't. I don't know if anything I

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Speaker 1: say is shocking. I think it's. I hope it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: but not shocking. I found it to be fascinating. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, who came up with the word narcissism.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's an old term that goes back

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Speaker 1: to the Greek myth of Narcissus, and that you know,

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Speaker 1: the story is Narcissus was this attractive Greek who fell

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Speaker 1: in love with his own image in a body of

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Speaker 1: water lake or Riverend died, he drowned and turned into

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Speaker 1: a flower in some stories called the narcissus. Now that's

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Speaker 1: what we call it, the day lily and narcissus. And

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Speaker 1: that term from narcissus was used first by this British

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Speaker 1: sexologist to his and have lock Alice back in the

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Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds. And then Freud took it, Sigmund Freud

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Speaker 1: and wrote about it really at the beginning of the

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, and that and Freud is the person who

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Speaker 1: really made it a popular term in the language. That's

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Speaker 1: an amazing work. W Keith Campbell with us the book.

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Speaker 1: Where do people get the book? Keith? You can get

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Speaker 1: your local bookstore, Amazon, online, any place you can find books.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take calls next hour. And if does

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Speaker 1: a narcissist know they're a narcissist, let me ask you

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Speaker 1: that again, I think and they there seems to be

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Speaker 1: some self awareness. Yeah. If you give people like really

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Speaker 1: simple questions, how narcissistic are you? They'll say people who

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Speaker 1: narcissistic will say they're more narcissistic. Give me a test,

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Speaker 1: you as the psychologist. I'm in your room, I'm on

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Speaker 1: the couch, and find out if I'm a narcissist. Just

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Speaker 1: do what you do. I do what I use very structured.

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Speaker 1: I use very structured, scientifically sound personality questionnaires. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you so you can't do it just talking to me

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Speaker 1: asking me questions. No. We we actually put together a website,

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Speaker 1: Narcissism lab dot com that we put some of these

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Speaker 1: these questions are on. But there's really a science to

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Speaker 1: this measurement that you can do it well. And if

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Speaker 1: you're going to ask somebody about it, it's usually you know,

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Speaker 1: would be you'd focus on something like sense of entitlement

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Speaker 1: and need for attention or need for admiration and you

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Speaker 1: know those kind of things. Who doesn't want that? Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing, that's that's why it's a normal trait,

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Speaker 1: meaning that most people are sort of narcissism narcissism, and

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Speaker 1: you know, some people have a lot and that's where

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Speaker 1: you get into some issues and some people are really

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Speaker 1: on the lower end and there might be some issues

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Speaker 1: down there as well. I mean, I used to love

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Speaker 1: in great school getting an age in a science project,

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Speaker 1: having my dad tell me, oh, George, that was fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Good for you. I mean I loved hearing that. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: so what you're talking about there is honestly earned status

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Speaker 1: through achievement, and you're talking about what we talk is

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Speaker 1: like is solid self esteem or solid confidence? Right, that's

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Speaker 1: authentic self esteem. You went out there, you performed. Your

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Speaker 1: father said, hey, you performed. He was telling you the truth.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't like, don't worry, you got an eighty bit.

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Speaker 1: All we go talk to the teacher and bribe him

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Speaker 1: and make it a hundred. And so your father appropriately

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Speaker 1: gave you a reward and he thought, I feel great.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's authentic self esteem. That's what we kind

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Speaker 1: of dream happens to our kids. So that's not being narcissistic. No,

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Speaker 1: that's been healthy. Ooh okay, yeah, so there's a fine

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Speaker 1: line here, isn't there. Yeah? I mean they go together

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Speaker 1: because people who are narcissistic kept some self esteem. But

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're saying, you know, got a hundred

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Speaker 1: and I'm the best in class and I'm better than

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Speaker 1: everyone else, and you know, Keith, let me tell you

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Speaker 1: got one hundred. But my friend Jim, he got he

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Speaker 1: got ninety he's kind of an idiot. I crushed him.

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Speaker 1: I just to tell you about that. That's being a narcissist, Yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and then you lose friends. I don't like you. So

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Speaker 1: the cutting line is a narcissist somewhat mean to people. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's that that interpersonal meanness, callousness, willingness to exploit people,

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Speaker 1: take advantage of them. That's where you get into the

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Speaker 1: trouble with narcissism. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM

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Speaker 1: every weeknight at one am Eastern, and go to Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast am dot com for more