WEBVTT - Episode 84: Shaft Development 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.320 The guys from Ping. They've kind of showed me how 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:03.800 much the equipment matters. 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:05.920 I just love that I can hit any shot I 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:06.560 kind of want. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:08.440 We're gonna be able to tell some fun stories about 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:10.600 what goes on here to help golfers play better golf. 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:13.760 What is up, everybody, It's the Ping Proven Ground Podcast 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.640 Shane Baker alongside Marty Jerts and we got John Oldenberg 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.840 with us today. We're gonna talk a little bit of shafts, 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.599 specifically Ping chefs and building chefs here at Ping. Marty, 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:25.440 I know it's a big, big thing that Ping has 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.120 been into, been into for a long time, but specifically 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:29.400 over the last few years. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:30.320 Yeah. 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.279 I think it's fun at Ping because we view our 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:37.400 product development very holistically. You know that the grip, the 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.000 shaft in the head all go together as a system 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.400 to drive the performance. Very fortunate to be sitting with 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.160 John Oldenberg, our director of shaft development, who comes from 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.760 a very strong background shaft R and d Olie. I 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.320 would love to just have you tell a little bit 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:57.800 about your background and your time at Aldola and some 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.880 of the fun products you've worked on in the past 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:02.480 leading up to your career now at Ping. 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:08.560 Sure. I started in the golf shaft business back in 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.200 nineteen ninety three, a long long time ago. Before that, 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:14.520 I was in I worked for General Dynamics in the 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.520 Space Systems division, So it came out of aerospace. Got 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.559 lucky to get a job in golf shafts. Don't really 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.440 have experience along those lines, but been loving it for 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.280 thirty two years. Worked with al Dula, worked my way 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.840 up to vice president of engineering for quite a while there, 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.760 and it was a good time. I learned a lot there. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:35.600 I think we did a lot of good things when 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.000 we're at Aldala, at Al Daala. When I started in 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.560 ninety three, in fact, Ping was my very first customer. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.160 I was just I started as a design engineer at 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.680 Aldola and my first customer was to design Pink shafts. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.600 And you mentioned about, you know, Ping, the history of 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:55.640 the shafts and the way they do things, and you know, 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.760 Ping does do things differently in golf shafts. They don't 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.800 pick stuff off the shelf, they don't go for a 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.320 brand just because the brand is popular. We think the 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.120 Ping brand is popular, so we put the Ping brand 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:09.240 on our golf shafts and we do a lot of 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.760 work that the other competitors, the other only ms out 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.560 there don't work. So through the years, you know, some 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:17.960 of the fun stuff I've done was you know, way 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.720 back when doing the Envy the Green shaft, that everybody 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:23.520 talked a lot. A lot of people that are going 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.440 to be listening or watching this thing are probably too 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:30.400 young to remember the end, but it was. It was 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.040 a very popular product that I did a long time ago. 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:35.680 And then the Voodoo shaft was fun and a little different, 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.440 and we did the Rip shaft, and then the Rip 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:43.840 led into the Tour Green shaft, and then the Rogue shaft. 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.320 The Rogue shaft became very very popular. So me and 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.600 my team at all, we did some good work over 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.560 the years and learned a lot of good things, and 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:53.639 hopefully I brought a lot of those learnings over here 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:54.280 to ping with me. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.040 John, you mentioned interest in the in the in the 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.919 shaft development world for most of your time doing it. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:01.600 What interested you in that world? 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.320 You know, it wasn't shafts that really interest me when 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:09.560 I got into aerospace originally. You know, when a lot 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.040 of engineers when you're going up, but we're engineers are 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.040 a little different. You probably figured that out already. But 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.560 engineers teams tend to figure out very young what they 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.680 think they want to do. And what I thought I 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.040 wanted to do was work on rocket ships, and that's 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.960 what I did out of college. I worked on rocket ships. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:28.920 Then found out that I don't want to work on 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.799 rocket ships because the environment just wasn't the type of 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.000 environment just too big, too political, that type of thing. 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.160 It was then in my late twenties that I got 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.800 into golf, and like a lot of guys, like a 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:44.320 lot of former high school college athlete guys, I got hooked. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.000 I absolutely got hooked. 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:47.760 Was there a reason to get into golf? Like, did 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:49.440 something points you to the golf space? 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:51.760 What I pointed me to the golf space was they 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.600 had a nine hole after work league at General Dynamics. 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.280 Again people can yeah, people kept asking me, hey, do 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:00.840 you want a sub into this league? And I didn't 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.640 have clubs. I borrowed clubs from people. They gave me 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:08.160 like a forty eight point seven three four handicap, and 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.200 I just I just went out and I had a 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:15.800 good time. Was and there was a tolerance on that 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:20.000 like plus minus one on seven, But I just I 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.839 got hooked on golf, and then I got my first 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.320 set of equipment. And as I started getting more and 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.760 more or figuring out more and more that aerospace wasn't 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.760 what I wanted to do with my life. An opportunity 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.360 arose from an old friend that i'd worked with before. 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:37.880 He said, Hey, I'm at this chef company. We're looking 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.080 for a design engineer who wants to apply. I applied. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:45.440 I got lucky getting the job because, honestly, in the 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.560 interview I interviewed with a guy who was also from Chicago. 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:53.280 I'm in chicagoan and all. We talked about the whole time, Bears, Blackhawks, 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.080 and pizza. Forty five minute interview, didn't talk any engineer. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:58.360 So I got the job. 0:04:58.520 --> 0:04:59.440 You're like, this is perfect. 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.920 I got the based on Bears, Blackhawks, John. 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.400 I got a really important question then, I live in 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.239 the Northeast, A big battle in terms of the better pizza. 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.599 Are you always going to defend deep dish? Is that 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.799 your world? Marty? 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:17.440 Do you have an opinion on this as somebody that 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.200 grew up in Arizona. 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.240 Arizona, We're whatever. No, I know. That's why I'm asking. 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:23.839 That's you're the person that can kind of make the 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.880 definitive answer. I'm more more good pizza fine, yeah, yeah. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.120 Yeah, But that being said, pizzas pizza. 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.760 Pizza is awesome, hard to mess up, great when it's good. 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.440 Yeah, but if if you have to have a hierarchy 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.240 of pizza, deep dish is the way up here in 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.880 New York styles. New York styles what you go for 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:43.280 when you can't find anything else. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.760 So I got there, you go, So, John, you brought 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.640 in the background in composites. So for the for the 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.719 listener out there, just tell the listener described like, what 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:57.279 is a composite material? 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.720 Right? And I guess the. 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.080 Easy way to describe it if you start with a metal, 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.880 and a metal is a single material, and one characteristic 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.159 of all metals is no matter which way you pull, push, 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.200 or twist them, they have the same stiffness in every direction. 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.480 Composites are different composites. The word composite means multiple pieces, 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.520 So composite materials are multiple materials mixed into one. And 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.080 what we use in the shaft world is carbon fiber 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.359 in epoxy resin, carbon fiber being a very very strong filament, 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.159 the epoxy resin being a glue that holds the filament together. Now, 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.360 one of the biggest advantages of composits, especially carbon fiber. 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.760 Composites are very very lightweight, very very stiff, very very strong. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.640 The one drawback is in composites, your strength and your 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.400 stiffness go along the direction of the fiber, so it's 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.200 very very strong in two directions, in the direction of 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.159 the fiber, it's not so strong in other directions. You 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.680 have to do some unique things to put a structure 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.400 like a golf shaft together and have it function the 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.720 way you want it to function. But you still are 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.960 able to do that with composites and make a really 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.239 really good driver shaft that's sixty grams, or with metal 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.760 because of the density of metal and the nature of metal, 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.280 it's going to be over one hundred grams for a 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:26.080 driver shaft. So they're different, totally different animals, and actually 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.200 you design them totally different and you produce them totally different. 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.880 The way a graphite shaft is made is very very 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.000 different than the way a steel shaft is made. 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:40.080 How many different layers of the compositor used in an 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.000 average graphite shaft or a Mendo Max type of run. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:48.600 Mind to max, it's probably ten layers of graphite, and 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.920 what Marty's referring to is graphic comes in a pre 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.120 preg sheet. It's like a sheet of paper, but instead 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.120 of being paper, it's sticky epoxy resin and fibers, and 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.119 it comes in a sheet and it's rolled on a tool, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.320 so it's rolled in layers. So typically the menu would 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.600 probably use is probably about eight to ten layers. I 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:11.800 think I counted once one of the shafts I did, 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.320 a very heavyweight iron shaft that I did years and 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:19.120 years ago, we had thirty six layers of graph fights. 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.040 Was that the one hundred and thirty It was. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.360 One hundred and thirty gram graph flight shaft. 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:29.480 Correct. I remember where'd it go, Marty? It went very straight, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:30.800 did it? It felt? 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.400 It feels very different than steel, and that's one of 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.960 the very unique things actually, John, maybe you could tell 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:40.880 just a little bit of the reasons why you get 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.080 such a different feel even if you try to match, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.240 you know, the stiffness profile and the uh the weight 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:48.520 and balance point characteristic. 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.440 Yeah, again, they're different materials. And you mentioned, you know 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.360 that it did feel different. One of the things that 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.880 I've run into in my career because one of the 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.080 that carrot that was dangling out in front of us 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:03.280 the graphite guys all these years is iron shafts. Iron 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.439 shafts are still predominantly steel, especially with better players. Trying 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.600 to develop an iron shaft for better players, because you know, 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.600 you get the better players, everybody else follows. I want 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.040 to play with that guy's I want to play with 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.560 Tiger's playing, I want to play with Rory's playing. So 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.920 trying to develop a shaft, so it ended up being 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.760 that I could make a shaft that performed every bit 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.040 as well as the best steel shaft. But you can't 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.760 make a graph flight shaft that feels like a steel shaft, 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.360 just because the materials are so different. And one of 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:36.000 the primary reasons for that different is the damping properties 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.720 and the way the vibration, the impact of the golf 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.240 ball and the club head causes vibration. That vibration then 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.600 travels up the shaft eventually through the grip into the hands. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.040 That's what the golfer senses as their impact. Feel and 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.560 graph fight because of the construction, mainly because it's multiple 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.920 materials that in some way work together, in some ways 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:04.160 fight each other. Fighting each other causes vibration to damp out, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.120 so you don't get the same feel coming up the 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.120 shaft with a graphite shaft that you do with the 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.280 steel shaft. So again, you can match everything else. You 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:14.760 can match the weight, you can match the stiffness, and 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:16.959 you can match the torque, and you can match the balance. 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.760 You just you can't match the field. 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.080 How about the shaft lab. What about the introduction of 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.400 that here at Ping and the importance of having a 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.360 lab where you can start to do a little bit 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:29.240 deeper dive in terms of development of shafts. 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.680 Yeah, I mean, we're really really excited about having the 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.560 shaft lab. It was a five year project getting that 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.120 thing up and running and it is finally up and 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:42.520 running what we want to do. Earlier we talked about 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.280 Ping being different with regards to the shafts that they 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.040 put in their clubs, and Ping has always been a 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:53.160 company that would, as Marty stated, we do take a 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.160 holistic approach. It's not a golf head that you just 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.000 shove a shaft until you put a grip on. You 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.040 design a system so that the system works in harmony 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.400 to give the best performance. So Ping has always even 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:06.880 when I was back at all the designing shafts for Ping, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.360 they would specify their product to meet what they wanted 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.839 the head to do. We want to take it one 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.240 step further instead of just specifying the product, sending those 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.839 specifications to a vendor partner and saying, please design this 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:22.880 for me, please test it for me, and then if 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.920 everything is good, we'll buy it from you. Now we're 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.680 doing all the design. Everything is in house. We do 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:33.319 everything from start to finish. So the ultimate goal for 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.240 all ping stock shafts, and we've already started We've done 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.840 a bunch of them already in the only six months 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.839 that it's been running. The ultimate goal is that the 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.600 only thing the vendors do for us is mass production. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.200 We essentially we send them a recipe. We don't send 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.240 them specs and say, hey, design me some We send 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.839 them a recipe. This is what you're going to build 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.320 for us. This is what it's going to come out like. 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.239 So it gives us just total control of the process 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.600 us and it also allows us to deeper dive into 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.480 some innovation looking at how shafts are made. What can 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.120 we do different from a material standpoint, What can we 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.400 do different from the way shafts are made. Graphight shafts 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.840 were first made in the late nineteen sixties. A name 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.200 some people might be familiar with Frank Thomas, who used 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.520 to be technical director of the USGA. Years ago, he 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.360 worked for a fishing ride company called Shakespeare. Shakespeare made 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.920 the first graphite shafts in the late sixties. Honestly, the 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.920 basics of the materials, the basics of the process, they're 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:39.600 the same now in twenty twenty five. So we want 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:41.840 to take a deeper dive and look into that. And 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.440 we think we're better able to do that type of 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.960 thing because we don't have to rely on the mass production. 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.480 And because we don't have to rely on that mass 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.560 production paying the bills, we have other things that pay 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.079 the bills. So we can go and we can look 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.240 at innovation and shafts, whether it's the materials and whether 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.560 it's the machinery. So not only does it give us 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.720 total control of our stock shafts now, it also allows 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.440 us to go look and look under some rocks that 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:09.040 maybe haven't been looked at before. 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.480 How much of your day to day is experimental? How 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.199 much is your day to day within the lab where 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.520 you can experiment on some ideas that might work in 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.000 the future. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.199 You know, it's up and down. It depends on the season. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:25.040 Ping launches different products at different times, and we have schedules. 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.160 Our G product is typically on a two year schedule, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.760 so there's times where we're extremely busy just trying to 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.839 get that G product ready, and then there'll be times 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.640 where there's a little bit of a lull, so you 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.720 work on what you have to work on, and then 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:41.760 when the lulls come, you work on what you want 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.480 to work on. I would say in total, and again 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.640 this is pretty new because the lab has only been 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.480 really up and running since around the March April timeframe. 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.840 We're probably spending right now about twenty percent of our 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:54.439 time doing innovation work. 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:55.600 It's amazing. 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.920 Marty John walked me through the lab a couple of 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:00.600 days ago, and we're going to have ADEO either out 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.360 on YouTube now or it will be out on YouTube 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.920 soon on the PING channel. I know about shafts, I 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.400 know about the ideas about shafts. I never knew what 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.480 went in to developing a shaft. And once you walk, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.200 once someone walks you through that process, I mean the 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.240 mind's open to the idea of maybe what is to 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.680 come in the coming years in terms of where shafts 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:21.040 could go. 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:22.280 Yeah, definitely. 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.560 I think one of the things I'm very excited about 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:29.480 the lab is that John's very familiar and helped team 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.160 up and do a lot of the research that we 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.560 did on shaft performance using our motion capture system focal 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:41.400 to bucket players into different types of groups, like you know, 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.040 so we did a lot of different shaft testing. Keep 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:46.920 everything the same, but change the torque or the tip stiffness, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.600 or the weight or the balance point, and we could 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:52.440 kind of come up with groupings and fit shafts based 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.720 on those groupings. Well, now that we can, John in 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.440 the Lab and his team can roll a shaft for 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:03.400 an individual, right, you can, you can truly optimize from 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.320 a focal session and then design and manufacture a shaft. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:08.920 John tell us a little bit about some of the 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.600 experimentation work you're doing there with let's say John Ky 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.280 for example, or Christian Pina. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:15.280 Yeah. 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.240 We just say, one of the goals of the lab, 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.760 and not just taking total control of the stock shafts, 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.080 is to be able to already mention make the spoke product, 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.280 you know, do do a single shaft for a single 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.760 player that totally fits that player. And we decided that 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.000 John k would. He'd be a good guinea pig. 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:36.080 He's a good person to start. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.160 It's a good person to start with. You know, he 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.000 owns part of the company, and he is a nut golfer. 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.680 He just he loves equipment and he loves the game. 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:44.240 So why not. 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.440 Start good player as well? Right, very good boy. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.560 Yeah, although I got to put this in there, I 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.200 had sixty two years old. I outdrove him one time. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:57.840 One one time, one time. We say what year that 0:15:57.960 --> 0:15:58.280 is or not? 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.800 That was only like two years And I let him 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.600 know it too well as I walked past him in 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.720 the faraway. But what we want to be able to 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.000 do is take all this data that we're gathering. We've 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.480 got tremendous tools that we can use to gather data. 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.440 And when fitting first started, fitting was just all about 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.840 swing speed. And you know, now we can measure a 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.080 lot more than swing speed. We can see what the 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.440 golfer is doing through the whole swing. We can see 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.520 what the shaft is doing through the whole swing. We 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.240 can analyze things, we can change things to determine what 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.040 attributes to the shaft affect what parts of the bullflight 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.520 for what types of swings. So you know, we got 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.400 John Ka on the focal system. We looked, we did 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.680 a fitting, We looked at what he's doing. We compared 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.840 what he's doing to the shaft profiles that were available 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.480 and said, okay, he fits. He should fit in right 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.360 about here, which wasn't right on top of one of 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.040 the profiles. It was kind of in between. So we 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.600 went back to the lab and we created a shaft 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.360 based on where he fit, and honestly, as far as 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.679 I know, it's still in his bag right now. It worked. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.199 I mean it almost feels like shirt sizing, you know. 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.280 I mean forever there's been small, medium, large, extra large, 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.200 and you just have to wear what's out there, and 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.360 the idea of maybe getting the shirt fit for you 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.520 versus you picking the shirt size. I mean, are we 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:23.800 moving in a place, Marty where in a couple of years, 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.720 five years, whatever. Every time you get a new club 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.240 in theory, if you want to get totally fit, it's 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:33.440 grip shaft clubhead. All that stuff fits specifically for you. 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.720 I mean to the tee, I mean basically bespoke shaft 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:37.040 for you. 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.440 I think if you take a step back and look 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.600 at the progression of tools in our technology, it's certainly 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.040 going that direct, okay, Right, Like if you go back 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:50.000 ten years, we didn't have adjustaball hozzles that you could 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.600 tweak the loft down to the nearest half a degree 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.800 to optimize your launch conditions, and then tour players could 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.080 move the cg of the head with hot melt or something. 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.760 But the every day golfer, well now they can, and 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.399 now we have a bigger suite of shaft offerings. Right, 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:07.679 you can still tip trim a shaft to kind of 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.760 dial it in, which is a really good method, or 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.080 step them in irons. So those are great options. But 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.280 if you kind of dot connect yourself to the future, 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.040 we are getting more and more precise with our tools 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.000 and be able to pass them to the every day offer. 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.959 I mean, it's just again I think, I mean, fitting 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.560 has been a part of ping since its inception, but 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.119 you just think about where fitting potentially could be going. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.360 And I mean, I love the idea of shafts being 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.400 such an important part of this and the fact that 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.720 you've been in the business for so long, and something 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:37.320 you told me the other day and you've said today 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.720 as well, is whilst the shaft world has progressed, there 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.480 are bigger steps left to be made, and there's probably leaps. 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:44.679 I know. 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:46.040 You even said to me the other Eagle, I don't 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:47.320 know if I'm going to be around for it, but 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.000 hopefully I will be, because obviously you've dedicated so much 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:50.600 time to it. 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.200 Yeah, I would like to see before I go. One 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:55.000 of the things I tell people that if you look 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.919 back in the history of shafts you know or sorry, 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:03.560 Hickory started fourteen hundreds whenever they started putting clubs together, 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:08.919 and it lasted until nineteen thirties when steel really started 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.160 becoming prominent, and then steel was around until, like I said, 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.360 the late nineteen sixties when graphite finally came around. Well, 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.560 here we are, sixty years later. We haven't had something 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.199 new yet. There's something out there. There's something in a 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.600 material or process to be able to do something differently, 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.280 do something better for the golfer, do something fairly amazing. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.400 I'd like to be part of that. You know, hopefully 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.000 it happens while I'm still here. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.080 John Rimmerhouse that you like to you like to fish, 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:38.879 a little bit, play a little bit of hockey in 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:44.080 your day ski. Okay, what are some of these other 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.840 industries that you maybe get some inspiration and brought into 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:50.400 the golf chaft design world. 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.960 If you look at the industries that are very very 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:59.679 into composites in and using composites that flex in a 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.440