1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: the show. My name is Noel. Our pal Matt is 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: on adventures but will be returning soon. They call me Ben. 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: We're joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. You are here. 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Uh. 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: Some of our fellow conspiracy realists listen to this show 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: while playing a few of their favorite video games. And 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: if you happen to fall into this category, don't stop 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: because this this is gonna be a perfect episode for you. 14 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: You might learn some things about the game you're playing. 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: Uh No, you know, like billions of other people around 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: the world. Uh you Matt doc. Uh maybe Paul, we 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: haven't talked too much about it, and myself are are 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: fans of video games. You know what, what have you 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: been playing recently? Yeah? I would certainly consider myself like 20 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: a fair weather gamer. Like I don't really I kind 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: of have like a handful of games that I play 22 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: regularly that aren't like big long haul games, and then 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: maybe one or two a year that are like big 24 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: immersive games, and I oftentimes will get distracted and like 25 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: it takes me ages to fit to finish those games, 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: Like I still haven't finished Fallout four. I think that 27 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: game is like four years old at this point. But 28 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: I love playing like Smash Bros. And you know, um 29 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: Mario Kart and things like that, and just like you know, 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: for fun here and there. M h yeah, And and 31 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: that might be the similar pattern for many people. You know. 32 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: There are also people who say, I wouldn't really consider 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: myself a video gamer, but I love this one app 34 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: on my phone and I play that pretty much, you know, 35 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: whenever I have some idle time. There are other people 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: who might say, uh, you filthy casuals. I am a 37 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: ranked champion in StarCraft, you know, and this or StarCraft 38 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: to excuse me, and this, This idea for this episode 39 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: came about. It was a long time coming, but it 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: was most recently inspired by a strange news segment we 41 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: did a while back where we explored the Chinese government's 42 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: newest bands or not outright bands, but limits on gaming 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: in uh for for younger demographics, and what they did 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: essentially was they took rules that some people might have 45 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: grown up within their own in their own home, like 46 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: parents saying, hey, you can only play games for like 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: a few an hour or two after you've finished your 48 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: homework or it's the weekend. The Chinese government did this 49 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: on a national level. They made it a law, so 50 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: if you're under a certain age I believe you're under eighteen, 51 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: if you're a minor, you and only play video games, 52 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: in very online games in specific instances. And they portrayed 53 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: this as a response to a domestic crisis, which they 54 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: said was profound. They were implying that video games are 55 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: dangerous addiction with wide ranging consequences, and this prompted us 56 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: to ask, well, our video games actually addictive. It's interesting, 57 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: it's a very interesting question. We're going to get into 58 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: a lot of opinions about this because it's certainly something 59 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: that's a relatively new question. I believe the World Health 60 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: Organization only started to acknowledge this as a potential, you know, 61 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: mental health issue very recently. But as far as the 62 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: Chinese band, I didn't realize that China is considered the 63 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: world's largest video game market. In terms of users, in 64 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: terms of players, and they have been struggling or attempting 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: to kind of control this for a long time. I 66 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: didn't realize until we started looking into this that they 67 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: actually banned consoles for I think of teen years, um, 68 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: and that is what led to the explosion of the 69 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: mobile game phenomenon. So I think one of the companies 70 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: is called ten Cent that is considered one of the 71 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: largest gaming operations in the world. Um, huge in these 72 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: online you know phone games that are like things like 73 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: League of Legends is one similar I believe the one 74 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: they have is because something like Clan of Kings or something. 75 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: I'm not that's not my particular bag those games. But um, 76 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: it's literally was a reaction to consoles being essentially outlawed. 77 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: Um and it's a much lower barrier to entry for 78 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: playing those phone games. Yeah, and this is a natural 79 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: evolution of something that makes sense. But this is an 80 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: evolution there's also accelerated over time in a way that's 81 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: going to be uh pretty easy to track. Like you 82 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: can start at the beginning. Here are the facts video 83 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: games have literally changed the world. Historians generally agree that 84 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: the first thing we would call an act double video 85 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,559 Speaker 1: game was invented way back in which might surprise some people. 86 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: Who was a physicist named WILLIAMS. Higgin, both of them, 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: who made a very very very bare bones version of 88 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: electronic tennis while he was working at a place called 89 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: the Brookhaven National Laboratory. Yeah, sort of as on a lark, 90 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: kind of with like sort of what would be considered 91 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: this emerging technology of computers um and computer programming. But 92 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: it became very very popular and folks you know, in 93 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: and around the lab would would come and show up 94 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: and play the game. Yeah. Yeah. He originally like he 95 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: didn't have this grand plan. He wasn't thinking this game, 96 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: which i'll call tennis for two is going to change 97 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: the world. He thought, you know, every October we have 98 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: an open house at Brookhaven and we have all these 99 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: people come to visit us. And Higgan, both of them, 100 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: said to himself, I think it's a snooze fest. I 101 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: want to show off what I'm doing with the instrumentation group. 102 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: And he's like he had the logic of a a 103 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: kid who disguides to build a volcano for Science Fair. 104 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: He's like, I want my exhibit the pop so I 105 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: need some interactive and it will also prove to people 106 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: that all our egghead research we're doing can have real 107 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: relevance to society. And so he, uh, he partnered up 108 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: with the technician and they actually they built uh what 109 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: is technically the world's first video game console, that's right, um. 110 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: And it was a pretty low tech you know, I 111 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: mean considering what we have today device that really foreshadowed 112 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: another researcher or another like huge force and gaming development 113 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 1: named Ralph Bear, who came out with something called Ralph 114 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: Bears brown Box UM in nineteen seven that ultimately went 115 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: on to become the Odyssey, which is the very first, 116 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: um even pre atari home video game console. Yeah. Yeah, 117 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: and the Odyssey did not do very well in the 118 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: market the browd. It was called the Odyssey when Magnavox 119 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: bought it from Bear. And that's this is the first, 120 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: like you said, the first home video game console. And 121 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: today it's regarded as a collector's item, right for any 122 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: student of video games. That's what happened. And there were 123 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: a couple of other little things just a few years 124 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: before Higginbottom and his technician Robert Vorak, And there was 125 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: a British professor named A. S. Douglas who made a 126 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: kind of tic tac toe as part of his dissertation 127 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: at Cambridge. But still, you could look at this stuff 128 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: and unless you were a very future minded person you 129 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: would think, all right, flash in the pan. Uh. If 130 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: you were somebody who thought that, however, you would be wrong. 131 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: Today video games are they've they've become mainstream, you know 132 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: what I mean. It doesn't sound weird for someone to 133 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: talk about a game that they like playing. And part 134 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: of that is because increasingly successive generations have grown up 135 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: with video games. You know, eighties kids all remember some 136 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: version of Super Mario, at least in the West. Oh yeah, 137 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: and if if you mean we're not gonna focus too 138 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: much on the history of video games today, but if 139 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: you wanted to, there's a really cool Netflix documentary called 140 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: high Score that I think we've all seen that that 141 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: covers a lot of this. And one of the very 142 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: early games to right around the same time that we're 143 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: talking about was called Space War. I just wanted to 144 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: bring it up because the Space War exclamation mark, and 145 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: that was developed at M I T, along with a 146 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: handful of other kind of low fi games that went 147 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: on to be the predecessor for things like Pong, and 148 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, Space Invaders and that kind of side scrolling 149 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: the game that we think of today that became you know, 150 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: things like Mario Brothers and all of that, and so 151 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: we talked about video games today. What we're seeing is 152 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: this transformation. Something that was once often regarded as a 153 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: niche interest, like kind of on the same level of 154 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, water polo or something, or an amusement 155 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: for children like hop scotch has blossomed. It is a 156 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: global fid and on. It's reaching nearly every aspect of 157 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: the world of entertainment. As of just for a snapshot, 158 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: the video game industry alone is worth an estimated one 159 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty nine point three billion dollars. The number 160 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: is going to continue growing because there's somewhere around two 161 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: point six nine billion gamers and that's going to probably 162 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: be two point seven billion within the very near future. Yeah, 163 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: and it's a massive, massive industry that doesn't show any 164 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: signs of slowing down, especially given you know, the last 165 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: couple of years with the pandemic and folks being kind 166 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: of cooped up. I mean, it's uh, I've probably been 167 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: a banner handful of years for the gaming industry. Um, 168 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: but you know, most gamers, whether you're maybe folks like 169 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: us that are casual gamers of a particular app or 170 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you play a handful of switch games 171 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 1: something like that, or if you're one of these e 172 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: sports folks that really goes super hardcore or and takes 173 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: it very seriously in high level competitions, you can actually 174 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: make a living, whether it be um streaming yourself playing 175 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: games on Twitch or actually winning big cash prizes in 176 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: these competitions. Um, the fact of the matter is it's 177 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: just another form of media that is ultimately entertainment, but 178 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 1: it can also incorporate education and of course at the 179 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: end of the day, it's supposed to ultimately be fun. 180 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And uh, this is this is something I 181 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: want to hit you know. It's it is important to 182 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: understand video gaming as exactly a new form of media. 183 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: I'd like to do a companion episode for this in 184 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: the future called the Future of Video Games, which is 185 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily what you think it might be. Uh, But 186 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: either way, we know the ins and out of the 187 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: gaming industry, like any other industry, might have some skeletons 188 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: in their digital closet. But if you're like most people, 189 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: playing a video game, you don't feel directly impacted by 190 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: those things. You know, you're you want to get your 191 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: gold star, or you're after you're on the continual quest 192 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: for that blue shell, because that will make the difference 193 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: in the race. However, we do spend collectively a lot 194 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: of time playing these admittedly brilliant games. As a matter 195 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: of fact, this is a statistics surprise me. I don't 196 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: know if it will surprise anybody else. As of this year, 197 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: the average gamer is believed to spend about eight hours 198 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: and twenty seven minutes playing something each and every week. 199 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: So for a lot of people, that's like, okay, you know, 200 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: do you as long as it's not impact in your life. 201 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: For some critics, however, this raises concerns about problems on 202 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: the horizon. And when we say critics, we're not just 203 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: talking about parents who are mad at their kids xbox habit. Uh. Instead, 204 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about people, psychologists, experts, medical professionals who believe 205 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: gaming could represent a new kind of danger. Well, and 206 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: not to mention, you know, entire governments, in the case 207 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: of China, governments that actually are able to enforce some 208 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: pretty draconian measures. And then as we've seen with the 209 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: history we're talking about at the top of the show, 210 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: have been doing that for for some time and are 211 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: just not the US is not because we are not 212 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: what you would consider a totalitarian government. I mean, there's 213 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: certainly we have our moments, but all in all, we 214 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: we are still a democracy, and we don't take particularly 215 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: kindly to being told we can and cannot do in 216 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: our free time. Um, even if it's about children, you know, 217 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: with it with the best intentions. So, I mean, in 218 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: the recent past, we've certainly seen in the United States 219 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: politicians raise concerns about violence in video games. Um, the 220 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: notion that perhaps it could desensitize children who are maybe 221 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: spending a little too much time playing Call of Duty 222 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: and you know, sniping people, and this notion that, uh, 223 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: it kind of removes the empathy quotient from the act 224 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: of killing. This is debatable, but it's certainly has. There's 225 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: been a lot of spilled over this and a lot 226 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: of you know, um discussions in the halls of government 227 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: around this as well. Yeah, that's the thing. So I 228 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: dug into this because it's a convenient boogeyman for politicians 229 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: to say, Hey, this new thing, this new fangled thing 230 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: is the downfall of insert civilization here. And if you're 231 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: a fan of video games, you can easily see how 232 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: this may not always be a good faith argument. It 233 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: can sound like just another tired iteration of other moral 234 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: panics like oh, heavy metal makes you crazy, where D 235 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: and D makes you worship satan? Uh. These are things 236 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: straight out of like Jack Chick comic strips. If anybody 237 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: wants a fun, trippy read later, the actual research, at 238 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: least the stuff I found says, shows that the situation 239 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: is not as cut and dry. Things like the American 240 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 1: Psychological Association will conduct met us studies, meaning they're studying 241 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: other studies that have been conducted, and what they found 242 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: is video games might be a contributing factor in a 243 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: rise in violent behavior. It may even may even be 244 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: a contributing factor in like immediate short term aggressive thoughts, 245 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: but that would happen on an individual level and then 246 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: totally one of many, many possible variables. So you might 247 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: play Call of Duty, you know, slam some monster energy 248 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: or in Matt's case, Dr Pepper's Eero sugar and then 249 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: say that might be a risk factor for you for 250 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: a little bit. You might feel kind of amped. But 251 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,479 Speaker 1: playing that game doesn't automatically mean you're gonna say, okay, 252 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: it's time to knock over a Walmart, right, It's I think, 253 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I think most people at this point in 254 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: the in the discussion you know that we've been having 255 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: for many, many years as a culture, would probably see 256 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: that side of it, where Okay, maybe there is a 257 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: a child who's experiencing other risk factors, whether it's you know, 258 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: in maybe mental health issues that are outside of video games, 259 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: or problems at home, or you know, just some undiagnosed 260 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: um psychological issues that could then be triggered or exacerbated 261 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: by excessive video game playing. Um that certainly makes sense, 262 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: but there are other factors that could you know, figure 263 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: into that as well, like violent movies or reading violent literature. 264 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting that we never talk about violence 265 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: in books, you know. I mean, I know that we 266 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: have in the past, for sure, but it certainly doesn't 267 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: seem to be as big of a controversy as it 268 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: is with video games, because for some reason, books are 269 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: seen as more innocuous because you have to use your imagination, 270 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: it's not showing it all to you on a screen. 271 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: But I would argue that books could maybe even be 272 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: more dangerous and in terms of giving people ideas that 273 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: they then act on, because it really does get right 274 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: inside your head as opposed to giving you kind of 275 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: a fac simile of violence. Throughout human history since the 276 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: dawn of writing, books have been some of the most 277 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: dangerous technology the humans have ever invented. There's a reason 278 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: some folks are so fond of burning them. Uh, they've 279 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: at least been a danger to a status quo. But 280 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: you you make a good point here, Noel, and the 281 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: pearl clutching one always kills me about this is the 282 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: pearl clutching about violence in some form of media is 283 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: a tail as old as time. I would not be 284 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: surprised if there was like some outcry when Gregorian chants 285 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: supplanted old Rome chant and people were like, oh, these Gregorians, 286 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: it's the end of the world. Uh. The real danger here, 287 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: according to the critics, is not is not the old 288 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: dead horse of violence and media. Instead, critics are alleging 289 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: it's not that video games are violent, it's that they 290 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: are addictive and dangerously. So what are we talk think about. 291 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor here's 292 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. So it was in that the 293 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: World Health Organization or in the w h O, officially 294 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: recognized something it is currently calling gaming disorder. And they 295 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: defied this condition in I don't know what I thought 296 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: was a pretty reasonable way. I thought it was. It 297 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: was a it was like a mad Lib definition of 298 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: addiction with gaming slotted in. Yeah, they describe it as 299 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: a condition quote characterized by impaired control over gaming. Um, 300 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: not in terms of the inability to use your controller, 301 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: but the inability of you to control your behavior, a 302 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: compulsion towards gaming to continue, with the quote increasing priority 303 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: given to gaming over other activities to the extent that 304 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: gaming takes precedence over other interests, and daily activity, and 305 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: continuation or escalation of gaming despite the occurrence of negative consequences. 306 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: So you your your partner broke up with you, you 307 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: lost your job, right and each of and your your 308 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: car got repossessed if you got a car, and each 309 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: of those things just sort of pushes you to spend 310 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 1: more time play playing a game. That would be a 311 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: loose definition of what they're talking about. And they're not 312 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: the first people to do. The first organization at least 313 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: to describe this. The American Psychological Association beat them to 314 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: the punch. They already cited something similar. They called it 315 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: Internet Gaming disorder and the d S M five, which 316 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: is like the collection of what it considers to be 317 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: conditions or disorders. And I think the specificity of Internet 318 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: gaming disorder is interesting that nuance. Well, we'll see why 319 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: in a second. Uh. But before anybody panics, before you go, 320 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: don't if you have kids, don't go grab your kids 321 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: video games letter we have fun because the A P 322 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: A and the W h O both note and they 323 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: take pains to note, the gaming as an addiction if 324 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: you look at it through this lens, likely only affects 325 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: a very small amount of gamers. The vast majority are 326 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: just enjoying a hobby. It's just they're kicking it with 327 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: some recreation, that's right. UM. It goes back to kind 328 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about at the top, where ultimately 329 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: psychologists UM have figured out that these these these triggering 330 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: behaviors that could be caused by violent video games or 331 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: other media are likely only affecting a small percentage of 332 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: individuals rather than the culture at large UM, and those 333 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 1: individuals are likely suffering from other conditions to begin with 334 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: that are then being exacerbated or triggered by you know, 335 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: the other stimuli you know from from games or what 336 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: would have you. So it's a very similar situation. Um, 337 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: You're not instantly going to be someone who's has an 338 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: addictive personality for anything. Um. Some people can drink socially, 339 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: smoke socially, even partaken drugs socially, um and not ever 340 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: go full bore over the cliff of addiction. Yeah, just said. Look, 341 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: you know, if you're in a spoilers, but if you're 342 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: in a part of Super Mario where you jump on 343 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: Yoshi and betray him to jump a little bit further, 344 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean you're gonna automatically say I should kill 345 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: every lizard. I should just ride this out. This is 346 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: my thing now, I am the lizard Army gedding. That's 347 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: that's preposterous to frese it in that manner, and unfortunately, 348 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: at times when convenient, some public figures have done just that. 349 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: So this is this is where we get to what changed. 350 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: So for a long time, the concerns about this were 351 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: relatively overblown. There wasn't the kind of technology in place 352 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: that would enable this to occur. On on a large scale. 353 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: It shouldn't be a surprise. We got to defend video 354 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: games and video gamers and the people who create these 355 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: should not be a surprise that companies and designers want 356 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: to make games compelling. After all, you're asking people to 357 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: give the most valuable currency in the modern day. They're 358 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: free time. So you wanted to feel like they're doing 359 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: something enjoyable. And it's tough to blame game creators. I 360 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: would say it's ridiculous to blame game creators for trying 361 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: to do a good job. That's kind of dumb, it is, 362 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: But but it's also, like you said, games have changed 363 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: the world, and games are continuing to change as technology advances. 364 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: So where it used to be you'd get the game 365 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: and the game was the game, now you know you're 366 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: going to get all of these micro releases that that 367 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: accompany the game, that that often goes on for months 368 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: and months and months of additional content, um, you know, 369 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: added bonus levels or you know, downloadable content DLC is 370 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: what they call it, of course. Um But with these 371 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: phone games and in general, the stuff from the phone 372 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: kind of made its way into console games. Those were 373 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: all based on their like free to play uh, and 374 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: then you get these little rewards um, whether for you know, 375 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: time spend or whatever it might be. And some of them, 376 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,479 Speaker 1: you know, do cost money, and that's how these companies 377 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: make their money. But a lot of them are just 378 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: kind of little ways to give you an extra little 379 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: endorphin boost. And this is what you might call, I guess, 380 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: the freemium approach to gaming design, right then, yeah, it 381 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: is the freemium approach to gaming design. Mean, it is 382 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: free to play, but if you want to do well 383 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: in the game, then you are going to be spending 384 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: either a ton of time or you're going to be 385 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: spending real money, preferably a combination of both to make 386 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: some progress. And just for a perspective there, in the 387 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: world of mobile gaming, as of just a few years ago, 388 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: I think it was a very small proportion of gamers 389 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: in the mobile space, only about point one five bring 390 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: in fifty of the profits for those developers. They're called whales, 391 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: and you can see why. So a lot of things 392 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: in mobile gaming are our numbers. Game meant to get 393 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: a piece of the that one point five percent of 394 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: the game playing population's wallet. And so much stuff goes 395 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: into this, so much thought and time, the people who 396 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: are very well versed in psychology are increasingly going to 397 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: be game developers, uh, and they're going to be working 398 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: with behavioral psychologists in particular. The average person might be 399 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: kind of surprised to learn just how much thought goes 400 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: into designing games specifically defeat upon and exploit what we 401 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: know about human psychology. And that's why we're talking about 402 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: how video games and slot machines share these core common manalities. 403 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: It's weird. There was a great article I read. It 404 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: was older, but it's it's still very much it's still 405 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: very much relevant. By a guy who's working at Microsoft, 406 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: and he talks not in terms of making a fun game, 407 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: but in terms of mapping out what he calls patterns 408 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: of activity from a structural level. So he takes three things, 409 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: the amount of time you spend, your activity, what you're doing, 410 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: and your reward what you get for that. Uh. This 411 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: activity plus time equals reward and together this kind of 412 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: equation creates what he called a contingency. And the idea 413 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: admittedly owes a ton to B. F. Skinner. Uh. He 414 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: is the one who's often credited with discovering the power 415 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: of stimulus and reward and so if you're not a 416 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: big fan of video games, you might say, well, I mean, 417 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: what's the point. Sure, you make a game, and you know, 418 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: somebody typically has to spend X amount of hours doing 419 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: why amount of things before they get you know, the 420 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: magic sword of Blah baduppa or whatever. If we're still 421 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: doing we are okay, good forever. If you don't play games, 422 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: you might say, like you might have a conversation with 423 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: a friend or a loved one who was like, oh, man, 424 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: I finally got the sword of Bla ba duppa and 425 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: you're like, well, it's it's not a real sword. Well 426 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: it's a sword of the mind though, right, And I 427 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: mean to your mind, it is absolutely a real sword. 428 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: And these are the same kinds of things that we saw, 429 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: uh and never read about. But specifically in the Netflix 430 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: documentary The Social Dilemma that talks about the design of 431 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: social networks, um they and and phones. Even the interface 432 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: of a smartphone operates on the same principles. It's trying 433 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: to keep you engaged on that device or in that 434 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: network for as long as humanly possible. In order to 435 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: do that, it games a lot of these psychological systems 436 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: or these systems in your brain um that are stimuli 437 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: and reward. Oh yeah, it does. Yeah, it does, because 438 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: here's the thing. When you have dedicated times to something, 439 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 1: if you are a human being, your brain becomes convinced 440 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: that you have earned it, the same way that your 441 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: brain when you just make yourself laugh. Your brain can't 442 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: tell the difference between that and genuine laughter, at least 443 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: when you're doing it. That's why laughter therapy is such 444 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: a big thing, because it actually reward gives you a 445 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: sense of positive vibes. I guess that you can kind 446 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: of impose on yourself. I'm not not a psychological term, 447 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: but the idea is that if you make yourself laugh 448 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: or just choose to laugh uncontrollably, it has a positive 449 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: reward um effect on the brain, but not necessarily in 450 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: the same kind of more cracky kind of stimuli ways 451 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: that we're talking about with games and social networks. Not quite. Yeah. Likewise, saying, 452 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: the caveat I always add when I when I tell 453 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: people about that is you are probably very good at 454 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: sensing fake laughter into others, just not in yourself. So 455 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: don't don't go to I to be slick. Okay, unless 456 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: it's really worth it. But in the in the sense 457 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: of this in this context video games, because the human 458 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: brain will become convinced kind of like a type of 459 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: sunk cost fallacy. They'll say, well, we've spent twenty hours 460 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: getting this amazing sword or this armor or this gold 461 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: um gold shoulder pad or whatever. Sure, so your brain 462 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: says you've earned it, and therefore, because you have earned it, 463 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: it is worthwhile. And you still get those good vibes, 464 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: those endorphins. Uh, you like, getting a sword in in 465 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: the game for your brain feels equivalent to getting one 466 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: in real life. And it shouldn't be dismissed because, as 467 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: far as you know, if we're gonna believe in Descartes 468 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: and I think therefore I am, as far as your 469 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: internal thoughts and experiences, both swords are equally real and valid. Sure, 470 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: or there's other philosophers I believe Leibnitz. Maybe there's one, 471 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: and there's a whole school of them. But the idea 472 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: of what is perception, you know, is this all just 473 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: kind of like a simulation, not not simulation theory, but 474 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: the idea that the universe as we perceive it, or 475 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: are surroundings that we perceive it. Um, there's really not 476 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: much difference between the way our brain perceives it and 477 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: the way our brain perceives a simulation of it, because 478 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: as far as our brain is concerned, it's kind of 479 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: all the same, right. And so if we go back 480 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: to the work of BF. Skinner, and this is this 481 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: is going somewhere, this is worthwhile. So imagine a mouse. 482 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 1: This mouse is in a cage. This cage has a button. 483 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: Let's say, let's say, uh, the mouse is named Rupert, 484 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: and whenever Rupert pushes Rupert's little mouse button, he gets 485 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: a treat. There are so many, their innumerable variations on 486 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: this type of experiment. But in the case of video games, 487 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: from the designer's perspective, you are the mouse. If you 488 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: are the player, and the cage is the game, and 489 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: the lever is the controller your means of an action, 490 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: and instead of food, you receive whatever that particular game 491 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: defines is an award every time, you know, depending on 492 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: the combination of moves you make with your lever controller. 493 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: Unlike those poor poor rodents in the world of Skinner experiments, 494 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: you are able to leave the cage. You can turn 495 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: off the game, and so game creators spend a lot 496 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: of time trying to figure out how to make sure 497 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: you don't. Exactly that all changed once online gaming started, Oh, 498 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: in a huge way, because, as we said, um, it 499 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: became much more about how can we keep you in 500 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: this game environment for as long as possible? And the 501 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: answer that is, what if we designed a game that 502 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: never ended? You know, instead of just the game is 503 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: the game? Well, now the game just goes on forever, 504 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: and there's other people you're interacting with, and it's essentially 505 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: just this world that you've immersed yourself in that short 506 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: of bodily functions and needing to maybe eat and drink 507 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: and stuff, you don't really ever have to leave because 508 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: it's certainly checking the box for a lot of your 509 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: social interactions, and it's giving you that reward system. So 510 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: you just feel so good. Who would ever want to leave? Yeah? Exactly. Uh, 511 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: not to date anybody in the crowd, but some folks 512 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: listening today are old enough to remember when the process 513 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: of gaming was this. If you didn't go to an arcade. 514 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: If you're playing a game at home, you bought it. 515 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: It's probably a cartridge or maybe a CD or something, 516 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: and you played until you gave up. You got bored. 517 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: Or you won, and then sometimes you'd fall in love 518 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: with the game. You might play it again in a 519 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: second third or multiple times, but mostly when you reach 520 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: the end of a game, you were pretty much done 521 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: with it. There wasn't really an option to like just 522 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: keep walking around and when like you said no. With 523 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: m M orpgs in specific, massive multiplayer online role playing games, uh, 524 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: these games didn't have to end. And then there was 525 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: a tremendous profit opportunity. Now instead of having somebody pay 526 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, their fifty bucks or whatever for a game, 527 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: they pay an ongoing subscription fee and then just like 528 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: a mobile gaming, they can pay more for various perks, items, 529 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: cosmetic improvements, and so to maximize someone's involvement, designers had 530 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: to do something different. They had to change the game 531 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: of making games. They had to make sure the game 532 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: didn't just continue forever, but that it also had the 533 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: patterns of reward, the contingency structured such that, uh, the 534 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: the game itself was compelling enough to keep people coming 535 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: back even when there wasn't necessarily new amazing stuff to do. 536 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: This is where we get the concept of grinding. You 537 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: just say if I you know, like um. For example, 538 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: in the Skyrim. If you want to level up your blacksmithing, 539 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: you just make the easiest blacksmithing item over and over 540 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: and over, which is a dagger, right. It's also a 541 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: way to just level up your character to like there 542 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: and there and like you, you figure out different tricks 543 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: and um you know, to to get the path of 544 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: least resistance to getting the most XP in the shortest 545 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: amount of time. But then you have people like you know, 546 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: there are certain games where to maybe folks like you 547 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: or I've been, we'd be pretty satisfied just completing the game, 548 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: like a Red Dead redemption. But within a game like that, um, 549 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: there are all of these little um like awards or 550 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: what do you call them, like medals done, achieve achievement exactly, 551 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: achievement unlocked. Uh, and they don't really give you anything 552 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: other than just the bragging rights of saying you one 553 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: d percent finished the game, um and and and and 554 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: then if you start adding in all of this downloadable 555 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: content and extra stuff there, it might be absolutely um 556 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: impossible to ever say completed the game. But some people's 557 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: brains are constantly seeking out that one completion, so that 558 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: part of their brain is totally being gamed and hijacked 559 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: by the gaming companies continuing to add more stuff to it, 560 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: and people eat it up. They don't look at it 561 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: as a negative. They look at it as a feature. Yeah, 562 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: I'm getting more already paid, now I'm getting more stuff. 563 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: And let's be honest, I think I can't be the 564 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,239 Speaker 1: only one who's had this experience. You might have been 565 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: playing a game and you've got some sort of notification 566 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: that you've achieved a badge, you've gotten a trophy, or uh, 567 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: some sort of kudos for something you never imagined possible. 568 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: It's like, a, ha, you've got the bird watcher badge 569 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: because you have seen every bird in this game at 570 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: some point, even if you don't care. People love feeling accomplished, 571 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: so you're like, oh, yeah, I guess I have. And 572 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: they get really niche to really specific, like oh, you 573 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: killed one thousand, five hundred enemies using a long range 574 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: sniper weapon with the laser scope and there you know, 575 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: there are these for every type of weapon, for every environment, 576 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: for every type of enemy, for every type of piece 577 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: of armor. I mean, there's got to be a whole 578 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: division of these game companies that all they do is 579 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: come up with those types of achievements, such a fun 580 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: idea for a job, you know, and they've got funny 581 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: titles to like. You might get one that says, creepster, 582 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: you have touched two hundred elbows the same game, and 583 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: you're like, well, I didn't know. That's really more on 584 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: the controls than as on me. Jeez, guys. But but 585 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: this is true. This is um this is a strategy 586 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: that works. And again, this does not make the game 587 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: developers in any way evil. There are people trying to 588 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: do a good job at their job. And this doesn't 589 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: mean that the people playing these games are suckers. They're 590 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: enjoying what they're doing. And again we are. We are 591 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: in that ladder group. We enjoy playing these video games. 592 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: But there was opportunity created with the concept of the 593 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: never ending game. There was opportunity both for exacerbating possible 594 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: problems with addiction, and it was of course the opportunity 595 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: to get a little bit deeper into people's wallets. And 596 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: then another plot twist came about. It's one that you 597 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: and I talked about briefly off air, which is so 598 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: nineteen or so. Online gaming is the thing. There's some 599 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: people who only play games online, right, they're like, I 600 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: don't really like games, but I love World of Warcraft 601 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: or League of Legends or Fortnite. And then a pandemic hits, right, 602 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: it sure did, um, which I think is the ultimate 603 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: plot twists here um and again a very recent one 604 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 1: that we still haven't seen the other side of. Mean, 605 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: we're still in it. The coronavirus kept tons of people 606 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: at home. Um. The idea of like, you know, away 607 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: time from your gaming system became at least temporarily a 608 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: thing of the past. Right, the idea of go play outside, 609 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: go play with your friends, you know, go see people. Well, 610 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, anyone who maybe was inching towards 611 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: being a bit of a gaming recluse almost had like 612 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: a pass, a free pass to just go all in. Um. 613 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: Because school went online, um, and and leisure really became 614 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: something that if your parents weren't being very active and 615 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: regulating the time spent on screens, he could easily fall 616 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole, especially considering that it was now 617 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,240 Speaker 1: school was like one in these little boxes, and accountability 618 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: was a lot harder, Like I I have a kid 619 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: and uh. During the beginnings of the pandemic, when she 620 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: was in school. It was really hard to make sure 621 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: she was on task because I can't be there looking 622 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,439 Speaker 1: over her shoulder every second. Um. And it was also 623 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: a very new thing for the teachers, so there was 624 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: a lot of new technology and software they were using, 625 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: and it was chaos. Uh. And you know, there's a 626 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: whole South Park episode about it where Cartman would just 627 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: literally put up a picture of himself and he would 628 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: just play video games or do whatever he wanted and 629 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: just pretend to be in school. So a lot of 630 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: any opportunistic kids that maybe tried to skirt their school responsibility, 631 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: this was like absolute, you know, fantasy land for them. Yeah. 632 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: I I haven't made it a secret. I have a 633 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: lot of teachers in my life. I'm immensely privileged to 634 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: say I'm friends with a lot of educators, and they 635 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: are some of the most important people in any civilization, 636 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: and they're often, unfortunately, some of the most put upon 637 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: people in any civilization. Uh. And this was enormously stressful 638 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: for everyone involved, the kids, the parents, the teachers, the educators. 639 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: And one thing a lot of people didn't acknowledge in 640 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: the beginning was if you're working from home, Yeah, it's 641 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 1: great to have a job, but you're also really taking 642 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: work into your house. You're turning your home into an office, 643 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: and you don't usually have kids in the office right 644 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: at your your job probably and uh, school and daycare 645 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: become unviable. People are looking for a way to keep 646 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 1: these kids entertained without you know, everybody having cabin fever 647 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: and biting each other's heads off. And that's when you 648 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: come to researchers like a psychologist from Maryland, Edwards Specter, 649 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: who says that this has shifted already. The rough demographic 650 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: of what he would see is people likely to have 651 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: gaming addiction or develop it. He said, one, you know, 652 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: it's always a small minority. But once, once upon a time, 653 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: pre pandemic, this demographic tended to be people of college age, 654 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: and now do largely, he argues, to the pandemic, this 655 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: demographic has shifted toward teenagers or even younger children. And 656 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: while this pandemic will pass, another one will definitely come. Sorry, 657 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: it's true, it does doesn't mean these kids are going 658 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: to be able to instantly unplug, you know what I 659 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 1: mean and go back to life as it was before. 660 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone will. No, And again, like you said, 661 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: it shifted that age, um too, started to cause it 662 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: to skew much younger, I mean, And then this op 663 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,919 Speaker 1: ed PC Root for the Washington Post, Spencer talks about 664 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: how it even has shifted to like infants, you know, 665 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: and I've seen it. Uh, it's no better babysitter than 666 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: the old iPad for a small child, with like shows 667 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: like Coco Melon and things that are you know, cute 668 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: and maybe a little bit educational in some small way, 669 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, totally sinister. But like, 670 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: you know, there's also games that are designed for very 671 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: very small children. And when you start really looking in 672 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: the psychology of it, you're introducing that kind of reward 673 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: system and that instant gratification of like, give me the 674 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: good feels while your brain is still developing. Um, that's 675 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: exactly kind of bad news, right, because it starts to 676 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: make it where like you're only good at something if 677 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: it instantly rewards you, And it starts to kind of 678 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: reward you for not putting in the time to actually 679 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: get good at a skill. Because I don't know, I'm 680 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: not meaning the soapbox here, but I've just I've definitely 681 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: seen it, and it's troubling. Um, it's troubling. It's also troubling. 682 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 1: I mean it's troubling from experiential level for many people. 683 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: I imagine it's also troubling in that there hasn't been 684 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: enough time to conduct rigorous science on these long term effects. 685 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: It's it's gonna take a long time, like decades for 686 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: people to know what was affected and to what degree. 687 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: But that's the lay of the lands. We're gonna pause 688 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor. I hope it's a video 689 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: game company. Will be right back to unpack what this 690 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: all means. We've returned in some Yes, there is a 691 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: kind of conspiracy afoot, Yes, Virginia, and there is a 692 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: conspiracy Santa clause here leveraging what we understand about human psychology. 693 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: Using the exact same knowledge so effectively leveraged in the 694 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: world of gambling and the world of advertising. Game developers 695 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: know what makes your reward system tick. They know how 696 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: to scratch you right behind the cognitive ears, and just 697 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: like Skinner with some mice, they can teach you to 698 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: do tricks for treats. Totally I wanted to earlier. Just 699 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: something that's really big in these types of games are uh, 700 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: what's called loot boxes where you get like a kind 701 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: of a blind box of like it's got stuff in it, 702 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: but you don't know what it is, and the monetary 703 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: value like in you know, in like in game currency 704 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: or whatever for one of the items could be really 705 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: high or it could be just some run of the mill, 706 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, widgets that you get to maybe give you 707 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: one ups or something like that. But that um gamble 708 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: is something that affects your brain, like you really does 709 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: feel like you're gambling, uh, and that just adds to 710 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: the impulsivity of it all and then the need to 711 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: keep trying again so maybe you'll get the good loot 712 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: this time, you know. UM. So they are very aware 713 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: of what they're doing, and you know that extends to 714 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: even like things in the physical world. There's like blind 715 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: boxes where you can buy it for a set price 716 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: and maybe you get the special uh gilded pokemon or 717 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: whatever mystery funky. Yeah, this is something you're You're right. 718 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 1: Game developers know this and they are doing it, and 719 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: that that mystery is part of it. Because human beings 720 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: in um in this sort of scenario tend to think 721 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: a little bit less about all the times they wasted 722 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: money on something, whether a slot machine or a loop box, 723 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: and remember the times they hit it big and psychologists, 724 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: at least in the world of gaming developers have figured 725 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: out what the acceptable wind to loss ratio is that 726 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: will keep you going, that'll keep you hooked. Uh again, 727 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: this is the thing that gets me. It is not 728 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: necessarily evil, it's not inherently malevolent. I mean, I was 729 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: trying to think of a good analogy. Think of it 730 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: this way, fellow conspiracy reels. If game developers were making 731 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: shoes instead of games, wouldn't they want the shoes to 732 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: be comfortable. If you're making shoes, don't you want to 733 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: make the kind of shoes that people like to wear 734 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: and walk around in. That's that's kind of the same thing. 735 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: Won a game that people like to live in and 736 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: like to spend time with. And this is this is 737 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: all again. This is not to say that every video 738 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: game manufacturer, every mobile game manufacturers intentionally trying to get 739 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: people addicted, but it does set the stage for addiction 740 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: to occur. And one big part of this problem, the 741 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: reason that's been ignored for a while, is that there 742 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: are a lot of misconceptions about addiction, and I appreciated 743 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: no when you pointed out just a couple of those. 744 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: But first, I feel like we shouldn't even have to 745 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,759 Speaker 1: say this, But just to be very clear, addiction is 746 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: in no way a moral failing. It is the result 747 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,919 Speaker 1: of many different factors, and it also doesn't necessarily need 748 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: a physical component. It doesn't even need a physical dependence, right. No, 749 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 1: I mean honestly, in many cases, the psychological dependence can 750 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: be more powerful than the physical dependence, and the physical 751 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: dependence is just kind of a byproduct of that. I 752 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: think many would argue that marijuana, for example, is not 753 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: physically addictive. If you smoke marijuana, then you stop. You're 754 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: not gonna like get the shakes or something or like 755 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: have some sort of you know, like nausea or like withdrawals, Right, 756 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: But Uh, it is very psychologically addictive. And if people 757 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: are convinced that they are better or they're happier when 758 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: they're in this state, then that psychological component is hugely powerful. Uh. 759 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: And the same goes with any kind of addiction, including games. UM. 760 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: It's interesting Robert West who's the editor in chief of 761 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,439 Speaker 1: the scientific journal Addiction UM. He says that it's really 762 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: more about what you do how you act. You know, 763 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: once you are quote unquote addicted or what. Rather, it's 764 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:49,280 Speaker 1: a spectrum, and more severe addictions are accompanied by self 765 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: damaging behavior or behavior that can really cause problems in 766 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: people's social lives and family lives and uh and work lives. 767 00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: Something that can lead to negative outcomes is the way 768 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,399 Speaker 1: put it. And this guy is the editor in chief 769 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: of the scientific journal Addiction, so he is he's such 770 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: an expense. Yeah, so yeah, you know, he knows what 771 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: he's talking about. But this, this leads us to something else. 772 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,720 Speaker 1: You know, when when we're talking about behavior that's something 773 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: that people get addicted to. Ritual is can be addictive 774 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: to folks because it is predictable, it is comforting, it 775 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: reminds you of how you felt the last time you 776 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: engaged in it. And the newest definitions of gaming disorder 777 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: or Internet gaming disorder, whichever term you prefer, seemed to 778 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: fit well within that understanding. There's not a silver bullet 779 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: one size fits all description, Like you cannot automatically say 780 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: somebody is addicted to gaming or a game just because 781 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: they like it. They might play tons of games, they 782 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: might spend tons of time on a single game, and 783 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: I say, this is a guy who did get to 784 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: a percent completion on Skyrim. It took forever. I'm never 785 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: going to do that again with a game. But that 786 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 1: same person may not be addicted because it isn't having 787 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: a negative consequence on their life. It's just something they 788 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,399 Speaker 1: really enjoyed doing. And that's where we have to ask 789 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: ourselves that question at the beginning, Is this to some 790 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: degree of moral panic? The answer seems honestly in some 791 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: cases yes, Like the best research finds that maybe one 792 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,879 Speaker 1: to three percent of gamers and this is the best 793 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: current research, um one to three percent of gamers are 794 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: quote at risk for addiction. And these are real people, 795 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: and this can be a real problem. But that doesn't 796 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: mean that everyone who got super into Minecraft during the 797 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: RNA is suddenly hugged up on what a couple of 798 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: reporters have even described as digital heroin, you know. And 799 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,399 Speaker 1: then you can feel attacked. There there are people who 800 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,759 Speaker 1: are like I my, if I have one vice, it's 801 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: a video game. I don't drink, I don't smoke. You know, 802 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: I'm out, I'm not out wilding. I'm I'm at home 803 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 1: working on you know, my newest play through g T 804 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: a uh that you can feel like you're being intact 805 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: as though your hobby is being stigmatized. But here's what 806 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 1: the who is really saying. I keep put calling who, 807 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: but who is really saying this is they're listing this 808 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: and acknowledging it as just a way of defining, understanding 809 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: the problems so that they can take better steps and 810 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: understanding how to address it. So don't worry. Big government's 811 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: nott coming for your PS four. Not just yet totally, 812 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 1: I mean at least big government here, um and in China, 813 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,399 Speaker 1: you know they're they're certainly. We've read a few op 814 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: eds from psychologists that we've one of which we sighted 815 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: the Edward Specter one for the Washington Post that kind 816 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: of criticizes the approach that the Chinese government is taking. Um, 817 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,400 Speaker 1: they are treating it, in the opinion of some of 818 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: these researchers, as a moral panic. And I love the 819 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: way Spector puts it where he makes the point it's 820 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: similar to the case with any prohibition or outright um, 821 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, outlawing or banning of a thing that people 822 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: like to do. Is uh. You know, when you tell 823 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,720 Speaker 1: someone they can't do something, they're just gonna spend twice 824 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,359 Speaker 1: as much energy trying to figure out how to do 825 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: it anyway. UM. So with kids, for example, you know, 826 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: we've we've done ads for these like VPNs you know, 827 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 1: um or are huge where you can trick UH systems 828 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 1: that would maybe be designed to cut you off after 829 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,920 Speaker 1: a certain amount of playtime. UM you can just reroute 830 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: it and make it seem like you're in a different 831 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: country that is in subject to the same you know, 832 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: UM conditions, or use a parent or grandparent or older 833 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: brothers account. UM. And you know this company ten Cent 834 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 1: that we talked about, the online gaming company that's massive 835 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: out of China, they're working on technology that uses facial 836 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: recognition to really take this to the next kind of surveillance, 837 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: nanny state kind of place. But again, um Spector argues 838 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,799 Speaker 1: that it's more about media UM awareness and kind of 839 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: having this conversation and figuring out how to kind of 840 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: just like limit yourself and then have a more of 841 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,640 Speaker 1: like a healthy balanced diet of media, rather than you know, 842 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: outright banning kids from playing these games because they're they're smart. 843 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: Kids are smart and they're just gonna figure out how 844 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: to get around it, or they'll just watch other people 845 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: play on YouTube, Like, how do you are you gonna 846 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: also filter Twitch streams so that kids can't watch other 847 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 1: people play. That's still triggers similar um endorphin responses, even 848 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 1: if you're not the one pressing the button, and that's 849 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,440 Speaker 1: why those are so popular. Yeah, so all good points, 850 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: Like I'm saying, no big government is coming for your 851 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: PS four just yet, But if they were coming for 852 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: your PS five, I assure you it's only because they 853 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,480 Speaker 1: couldn't get their hands on one themselves. That's still incredibly ridiculous. 854 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,560 Speaker 1: But just as real as the micro trip shortage is. 855 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: The problem looming on the horizon is itself real, and 856 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 1: there's not an effective way to legislate it on a 857 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 1: large scale, At least in the US. It would be 858 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,800 Speaker 1: virtually impossible because what would you be doing at that point. 859 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 1: You would either be restricting people's personal freedoms or you 860 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,240 Speaker 1: would be what making some sort of law that says, 861 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,280 Speaker 1: if you're a game developer, you can't make your game 862 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,799 Speaker 1: entertaining or compelling in a certain way. That's a lot 863 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,280 Speaker 1: like saying, hey, shoemakers the world, these shoes are too comfortable, 864 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: start making them kind of crappy. You know, for the 865 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,880 Speaker 1: greater good exactly, just like have them come with like 866 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,239 Speaker 1: pebbles in the bottom of them that you can't take out, 867 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, or a thumbtack or something. Um, it's true. 868 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: And and you know, as I said, even in China, 869 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: the technology isn't quite all the way there for them 870 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,839 Speaker 1: to really do this and the way they're wanting to 871 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,000 Speaker 1: do it, and you're they're going to need the assistance 872 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: of these game developers. Um. And there's even calls in 873 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,400 Speaker 1: the States for game developers to maybe start helping out 874 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,759 Speaker 1: with some of these problems a little bit. Make it 875 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,360 Speaker 1: easier for parents to you know, at their own discretion, 876 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,480 Speaker 1: limit screen time, make it a little harder for kids 877 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,520 Speaker 1: to get around that stuff. But the legislation, of course, 878 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,640 Speaker 1: as it always does, inevitably lags behind technology. So it 879 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: is ultimately up to the developers to kind of spearhead 880 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,399 Speaker 1: this stuff. And uh, this is the same thing that's 881 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: happening in the world of gambling and in the world 882 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,319 Speaker 1: of advertisement. With this in mind, we do hope that 883 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 1: you check out our future episode on the future of 884 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,320 Speaker 1: video games, which will definitely have to have Matt Frederick 885 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,960 Speaker 1: in four. And the last thing we want to end 886 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,040 Speaker 1: on whenever we do an episode touching on topics like addiction, 887 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,759 Speaker 1: is this If you are struggling or someone you care 888 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,160 Speaker 1: about is struggling with addiction of any sort, there is 889 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,280 Speaker 1: help out there. You are not alone. It might sound 890 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: corny when people say it, but it only sounds corny 891 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,480 Speaker 1: because it is true. If you struggle with addiction, UH, 892 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: if you you know, let's be honest, rates of certain 893 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: vices and problems have skyrocketed during the RNA. So if 894 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,680 Speaker 1: you find yourself affected by this, don't as tape. Please 895 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: reach out to any of the many helplines and resources 896 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,399 Speaker 1: that are available for you and for free. You are 897 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: worth it. I always like to recommend the Substance Abuse 898 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,399 Speaker 1: and Mental Health Services Administration here in the US SAMSA UH. 899 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: Their national help line twenty four hours day, seven days 900 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,439 Speaker 1: a week is one eight hundred six six two four 901 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: three five seven. That's one six six to help. H 902 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: g LP definitely a great resource if you're finding yourself 903 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 1: in a situation where you do feel alone and you 904 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,719 Speaker 1: need someone to talk to UM. But let us know, 905 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: is this something that you struggled with UM during the 906 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,640 Speaker 1: pandemic or otherwise? Is this something that you even think 907 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 1: is an issue. You can reach us in all of 908 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: the usual Internet places of note, that's right. You can 909 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,759 Speaker 1: find us in places like Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, uh, and 910 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,720 Speaker 1: if you say, you know, I'm more of a phone person, 911 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: I would much rather prefer just to leave a message. 912 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,120 Speaker 1: We've got you covered there too. We have a real 913 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,600 Speaker 1: life phone number. That's right, it's one eighth three s 914 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,280 Speaker 1: t d W y t K. You've got three minutes 915 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,680 Speaker 1: to leave your voicemail and let us know what to 916 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,719 Speaker 1: call you, give yourself a killer nickname, or just let 917 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,560 Speaker 1: us know what you're comfortable with. We can also go 918 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: with anonymous. And if you're cool with us using your 919 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,279 Speaker 1: message on air, and you may hear yourself in one 920 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,839 Speaker 1: of our weekly listener mail episodes. And if that's not 921 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,760 Speaker 1: your bag any of those things, you can also contact 922 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: us somewhat old fashioned way. You can send us a 923 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:47,400 Speaker 1: good old email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. 924 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 925 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,760 Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 926 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 927 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,160 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.