Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Sammy J. And welcome to this week's
Speaker 1: episode of Let's Be Real. This week's episode is with
Speaker 1: journalists and tech reporter Lorie Siegel. You guys, I have
Speaker 1: always been so fascinated in technology and how social media
Speaker 1: is affecting all of us, and I think it's really
Speaker 1: affecting all of us this year, especially as we are quarantined.
Speaker 1: Lorie Siegel has been an incredible journalist and she has
Speaker 1: a really interesting perspective because she has been on the
Speaker 1: ground of technology. When Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, we're just startups.
Speaker 1: She has been interviewing these founders for years and she
Speaker 1: has an inside perspective that no one else has. I
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed the episode and I cannot wait for
Speaker 1: your feedback. Hi, Lorie, I am so excited to have
Speaker 1: you on my podcast. I am fascinated by what you
Speaker 1: do because you have been on the ground since Instagram, Facebook,
Speaker 1: Twitter they were just startups. What's it like seeing the
Speaker 1: progression of these artups turned into billion dollar companies? I mean,
Speaker 1: by the way, when you say that, I'm like that,
Speaker 1: I feel so old recent though, like this is so new.
Speaker 1: I know, I think people forget like that. It was.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny. I'm writing a book right now
Speaker 1: and I'm talking about my my first interactions with the
Speaker 1: folks from Instagram. And by the way, they're my age.
Speaker 1: Like I'm first of all, I know you're eighteen, so
Speaker 1: you're young, but I'm thirty five years old. Like I'm
Speaker 1: not that old, right, but you're not at all, right.
Speaker 1: But like at the time when I started covering technology,
Speaker 1: it was just like a bunch of us and we
Speaker 1: were just all really young. And I remember interviewing Um
Speaker 1: Kevin Sistram, who had this app called Instagram, and I
Speaker 1: remember us being out of the West Side Highway and
Speaker 1: it was just me and our camera guy and me.
Speaker 1: You know, I was still wearing the same black blazer
Speaker 1: that I wore on every single shoot because I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure exactly had addressed yet for for television. And I
Speaker 1: remember being, you know, um, super interested in this idea
Speaker 1: of an app, and I and and being like, well,
Speaker 1: why would people want to use this photo sharing app?
Speaker 1: And you know, there were four people at the company
Speaker 1: at the time. It was before they sold the Facebook, um,
Speaker 1: and and it was when I would still ask these
Speaker 1: founders and I remember doing this um, like the founder,
Speaker 1: one of the founders of Twitter, why would people use Twitter?
Speaker 1: I remember saying this to the founder of Uber, Travis Kalnik,
Speaker 1: Why would people get into a stranger's car? Because you
Speaker 1: forget all of these things. It was really interesting. It was,
Speaker 1: you know, interviewing these founders when before they turned into
Speaker 1: the multimillionaires and the billionaires, and when they just felt, um,
Speaker 1: very much like kind of your peers and people who
Speaker 1: didn't really play by the rules and and had these
Speaker 1: ideas of things that could change the world. And it
Speaker 1: was really optimistic time, and very much in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight, two thous and nine when I started covering technology,
Speaker 1: when I got into journalism as a young journalist, like,
Speaker 1: I was just attracted to weirdos and it was just
Speaker 1: a bunch of weirdos, um, And so that's how I
Speaker 1: got into it. When you talk to them now, is
Speaker 1: it your friend then when you used to do still
Speaker 1: have that peer like similarity or do they act like
Speaker 1: the CEOs and feel as though that they are above you? Right,
Speaker 1: that's a good question. Um, Some change and some don't. Right.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like if you knew with someone who
Speaker 1: was in a band that blew up right, and then
Speaker 1: some remain very humble, and then some change. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's an honest answer, I think. Um, but I remember
Speaker 1: when the change started happening, which was super interesting to me.
Speaker 1: Like I remember one day when I think it was
Speaker 1: it was Kevin from Instagram, when he came in and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden he had more PR handlers within,
Speaker 1: and then there were just more layers and layers and layers.
Speaker 1: And it used to be you just would email one
Speaker 1: person and they would just respond backre emailing, like the
Speaker 1: founder of Oover just just at up the interview, and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden there were more PR handlers
Speaker 1: and more pure handlers, and then all of a sudden
Speaker 1: there was a multibillion dollar company. And so it was
Speaker 1: super I mean, it was super interesting. I interviewed Mark
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg during UM Cambridge Analytico, which was such a such
Speaker 1: a interesting I'm in tech, and it was I think
Speaker 1: a time when we realized how much of our data
Speaker 1: was not as private as we thought. It was terrified,
Speaker 1: which was really terrifying. And so it just the whole
Speaker 1: ethos of technology changed, and it changed our culture, and
Speaker 1: it changed everything we did and everything got a lot
Speaker 1: more complicated. It really did. And I saw, I saw
Speaker 1: the social dilemma terrifying but so important to watch. I've
Speaker 1: I've turned off all my notifications on all my apps
Speaker 1: except Gmail because I need to for school. But it's
Speaker 1: it really makes you look at how we've come far
Speaker 1: as a society with the technology. When you were, you know,
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight and two thousand nine, did
Speaker 1: you ever think that technology would have gone to such
Speaker 1: a place where it would take such a factor in
Speaker 1: polarizing our country? Um? No, I didn't, but I did.
Speaker 1: I did see it happening before it came right. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I remember. It's funny. I was looking through
Speaker 1: my notes, um from a talk I gave to some
Speaker 1: students at m y U. And this is years This
Speaker 1: must have been like two thousand and twelve. It was
Speaker 1: like a bunch of engineering students, and I was looking back.
Speaker 1: I'd say this piece of paper and I had written
Speaker 1: things to look out for, um, and and the number
Speaker 1: one thing I wrote I have written on this was empathy,
Speaker 1: Like you've got to have it you, We've got to
Speaker 1: start thinking about empathy really early on. But I remember
Speaker 1: being like, I think it's really important for these engineers
Speaker 1: to start thinking about the human impact, because there was
Speaker 1: always this kind of ones and zeros like text is
Speaker 1: going to change the world, and this black and white
Speaker 1: view of it, um, and sometimes just like the human
Speaker 1: thing got lost. And every time I had like a
Speaker 1: bad story about tech or I was kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, saying, okay, did you not see that this
Speaker 1: was going to happen? It was always kind of these
Speaker 1: human questions. And so remember, um, you know, to this
Speaker 1: room full of engineers being like, you really need to
Speaker 1: think long and hard about the human impact of the
Speaker 1: algorithms and what you're doing. And that was years before
Speaker 1: this happened. Um. And I remember beginning to see the
Speaker 1: cry acts in the in the system, but kind of
Speaker 1: before it happened, and um and saying, you know, tech
Speaker 1: is not taking responsibility for the content on its platform,
Speaker 1: and the questions are becoming more and more complicated. And
Speaker 1: I remember sitting across from Mark Zuckerberg and saying, how
Speaker 1: does it feel to be editor in chief of, you know,
Speaker 1: of the Internet to some degree? And he didn't like
Speaker 1: that question, But I don't think I was ever mean
Speaker 1: and asking these questions as much as and this has
Speaker 1: never been my style as a journalist. You know, they're
Speaker 1: tough of fair questions. They're fair questions that we're right
Speaker 1: to know. Yeah, And I always thought it was important
Speaker 1: to ask founders, especially because I grew up with these
Speaker 1: founders and I believed in their products, and so I think, Um,
Speaker 1: I did see that polarization was going to happen, but
Speaker 1: to this degree no, And could anyone have envisioned it? Um?
Speaker 1: Probably not? But could could tech have done a much
Speaker 1: better job? Yes? Could they still be doing a better job? Yes?
Speaker 1: Like do I buy it when they? Um? You know,
Speaker 1: when I hear the company lines we take user safety
Speaker 1: very seriously. I mean, like, no, I'm trying to find
Speaker 1: a balance of having a healthy relationship with my phone
Speaker 1: and with social media devices. But you know, we are
Speaker 1: in a global pandemics and now aren't we of communicating
Speaker 1: is through chechnology? So how have you tried to find
Speaker 1: a balance between living a life, even though it through
Speaker 1: a pandemic in a healthy way and in in technology? Not? Well? Like?
Speaker 1: Not well? I mean, if I'm being auf Dick, I
Speaker 1: could say I could be doing a much better job
Speaker 1: of it. I told you as I'm writing this book,
Speaker 1: like I had to delete Facebook and Instagram for three
Speaker 1: or four days because I am not good at the
Speaker 1: middle ground, you know, like I'm just not and and
Speaker 1: so I think that's going to be a problem for
Speaker 1: these for these companies, um, because I do think we
Speaker 1: were all in at this point, you know. And and
Speaker 1: it's been programmed, um, as you probably saw in the
Speaker 1: Social Dilemma. You know, they've been programmed every product decision,
Speaker 1: whether it's like the color of the notifications, it's programmed
Speaker 1: to make our brain go buzz, you know, to get
Speaker 1: us to look at it. That part of the Social
Speaker 1: Dilemma was terrifying. So if they're programming things for our
Speaker 1: brain to respond to in a certain way, how do
Speaker 1: we take back control. I think there will be a
Speaker 1: new conversation and a couple of years, I think tech
Speaker 1: is going to be a part of us, Like we're
Speaker 1: not going to be able to just turn it off.
Speaker 1: Like I do not believe. Um. And maybe this is
Speaker 1: a little controversial to say, but like we're in it,
Speaker 1: Like we've opted in. We are all Like technology is
Speaker 1: inherently a part of humanity now and so to some degree,
Speaker 1: like we've got in this next phase, we've got to
Speaker 1: learn how to interact better with it. And we need
Speaker 1: new entrepreneurs to build better products with humanity first, and
Speaker 1: and so that's a lot of responsibility. I am. I
Speaker 1: interviewed a guy years ago who did UM predictive data
Speaker 1: analytics to determine if something like really bad was going
Speaker 1: to happen UM, like it's suicide bombing or something like
Speaker 1: awful UM. And I remember in the middle of the
Speaker 1: interview we never we never published this part of the interview. UM.
Speaker 1: He was like a human algorithm. He didn't really have
Speaker 1: much social audility. And in the in the middle of
Speaker 1: the interview, he was like, you know, I looked at
Speaker 1: all your data, um, everything you've posted on Facebook and
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram over the last eight years. And he's like,
Speaker 1: and I know a lot about you. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: what do you and uh and he was like, well,
Speaker 1: you're unhappy in your relationship and you're growing unhappy at
Speaker 1: your job. And I was at cn IN for ten
Speaker 1: years and I was like, and by the way, like,
Speaker 1: well i'll be I'll be honestly, both of those things
Speaker 1: are kind of like true, right and where it hurts, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I remember I remember being like, ah, I mean
Speaker 1: it could be like a terror card reading, right where
Speaker 1: you're kind of like, okay, like you are unhappy in
Speaker 1: this way and you just kind of go with it.
Speaker 1: But but like it did a terror card reading, you
Speaker 1: know what, that's what you're there to do. You're here
Speaker 1: to get this information in an interview and he goes totally.
Speaker 1: But but I you know, when I left the job
Speaker 1: and I left the boyfriend at the time, um, you know,
Speaker 1: I called him up and I had said, like, how
Speaker 1: did you do that? And he said, every word you post,
Speaker 1: the time of day, you post, the types of words,
Speaker 1: everything is an indicator. It creates this digital puzzle piece
Speaker 1: of who we are and what we're not saying. And
Speaker 1: so I think there's actually something powerful there, right, Like
Speaker 1: I don't think it's completely totally freaky, right, Like I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I do want to scare all your no, no, but
Speaker 1: this is important to know. But like advertisers are already
Speaker 1: are already doing this to us, right, So what if
Speaker 1: in the future, like we were able to some degree, um,
Speaker 1: to be able to take advantage of that information for ourselves,
Speaker 1: Like what if we had the capacity, what if down
Speaker 1: the line, like we had the capacity, um, to understand
Speaker 1: more about our own data, about our mental health and
Speaker 1: what it said and so and so. I only say
Speaker 1: this to say, as someone who has looked at the
Speaker 1: future and the zeitgeist and what people will be talking
Speaker 1: about down the line, I think there will be a
Speaker 1: new conversation around technology and how do we take all
Speaker 1: of these things and make them work for us as
Speaker 1: opposed to us working for them. Yeah, take the power back? Yeah, like,
Speaker 1: you know, bring back like I'm going to bring back
Speaker 1: my old punk ROCKERSLF, but like, yeah, like, let's take
Speaker 1: the power back in some capacity. That's so interesting because
Speaker 1: it makes sense. You know that it is programmed to
Speaker 1: benefit the companies and the data. It's to make it
Speaker 1: so we can have that power. You know. Um. I'm
Speaker 1: actually in my statistics class. We're doing this two month
Speaker 1: project where we are we choose four metrics about ourselves, um,
Speaker 1: and we record the results every day for two months
Speaker 1: and then analyze the data to know more about ourselves.
Speaker 1: And one of them for me is checking my screen time,
Speaker 1: and I've been very it's been making me much more cautious.
Speaker 1: Two years ago, my softmore year of high school, my
Speaker 1: anxiety got really bad and I shut off my phone
Speaker 1: for two weeks because I realized I was spending like
Speaker 1: thirteen hours a day on my phone. And we're at
Speaker 1: a point in I think technology where when I was
Speaker 1: in that vulnerable moment, it can be really at social
Speaker 1: media and technology for all of that. So when you
Speaker 1: say compressing our data so we can know more about
Speaker 1: our human behaviors, do you think that would benefit us
Speaker 1: if for the people that are in vulnerable situations? I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I think it could go pop ways. And by the way,
Speaker 1: this is technology in a nutshell, Like I think having
Speaker 1: a lot of this data could be super helpful, and
Speaker 1: then I think it could also hurt us too, you know,
Speaker 1: And I think that is where ethics are. And this
Speaker 1: is why, like the sweet spot of my career has
Speaker 1: always been ethics. Like I've always been screaming about ethics
Speaker 1: as long as it's very underrated. It is really underrated.
Speaker 1: It's like not that sexy, but like now it's becoming
Speaker 1: more sexy because all these tech companies are under fire. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's it's the theme that kind of
Speaker 1: goes missing. Um. And especially is something as powerful as technology,
Speaker 1: like I don't even think you know, in the time
Speaker 1: I started covering tech. It's not a beat anymore. It's
Speaker 1: just humanity, Like it's the way we love, it's politics,
Speaker 1: it's it's mental health, it's it's everything. I think. I
Speaker 1: think it's a really good question, and I think and
Speaker 1: I don't think it has an easy answer, and I
Speaker 1: think the best questions don't have easy answers. I'm still
Speaker 1: figuring out what I want to do, but I really
Speaker 1: admire you as a journalist and as a reporter, because
Speaker 1: that's something that I'm becoming really interested in. Um and you,
Speaker 1: like I've said, you've been following this for so many years.
Speaker 1: When you interviewed Mark Zuckerberg about the Cambridge Analytica, First
Speaker 1: of all, that interview was incredible because that was like
Speaker 1: the first time I really saw him take accountability to
Speaker 1: some degree. How do you go into that interview and
Speaker 1: did you expect to get those answers? It's an interesting question,
Speaker 1: you know, I go into any high pressure interview like
Speaker 1: hoping if so. First of all, I think it's always
Speaker 1: in any in any interview, always about to follow up, right,
Speaker 1: Like I always know that they have the thing that
Speaker 1: they want to say that they need to say, So
Speaker 1: you just gotta let them say it and then you
Speaker 1: gotta listen, and then you gotta follow up. Like that's
Speaker 1: that's always my key, So like, you know, and I
Speaker 1: also under dan that like you've got to know Um.
Speaker 1: I remember remember thinking like, um, I had messaged Mark
Speaker 1: on Facebook. Um during that irony people think that, I mean,
Speaker 1: by the way people think these things are so difficult,
Speaker 1: um and by the way it's hard to get an
Speaker 1: interview March sure like but but people also like it's
Speaker 1: like people forget what technology you should just like you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people have like these booking departments that
Speaker 1: book for the would be on it is his platform.
Speaker 1: I mean, doesn't it make sense, like a as someone
Speaker 1: who's covered technology for a really long time, so you know,
Speaker 1: and then I had followed up with this pure person
Speaker 1: but um, I remember going out there um. And I mean,
Speaker 1: by the way, it couldn't have been more dramatic because
Speaker 1: like Al was coming in um into New York. Like
Speaker 1: I think my life is constantly a bit of a
Speaker 1: It's like my life is a bit of a sign
Speaker 1: Feld episode always. I feel like if we're Anderson Cooper,
Speaker 1: like it would have just been like the like and
Speaker 1: like you know, you know, and maybe you could imagine
Speaker 1: went wrong. Um, but I do remember going in and think, um,
Speaker 1: this is such a big moment. And and it was
Speaker 1: the moment for me that technology had become society because
Speaker 1: everyone cared like It wasn't just my inside baseball tech
Speaker 1: friends that cared like like Facebook had managed to piss
Speaker 1: off so many people in this and and and it
Speaker 1: just was such a large many people's data and so
Speaker 1: many people and you know, and their messaging had not
Speaker 1: been good and also just an understanding of what went wrong.
Speaker 1: And I just remember going in and and um, thinking
Speaker 1: about how small the room felt, you know, and how
Speaker 1: big the story was. Like it was like the small
Speaker 1: cold room because Mark likes it really cold interviews, um,
Speaker 1: and so I was really freezing, and then we had
Speaker 1: the scene and countdown clock and I was just um,
Speaker 1: but I just remember I wanted him and this is
Speaker 1: important to me, and I'm sure you understand. This is
Speaker 1: someone who interviews people. I wanted him to feel like
Speaker 1: himself because if he felt like himself, then he would
Speaker 1: say the things he needed to say. Got to make
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable, yeah, and you know, and and but
Speaker 1: it was also it's always so balanced because you know,
Speaker 1: I wanted him to feel comfortable, but I also you know,
Speaker 1: there was a lot to speak to and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of accountability in that moment um and and so
Speaker 1: it's interesting because we we did the interview um and
Speaker 1: and we kept going because we went past our a
Speaker 1: lot of time. Um But he started, you know, we
Speaker 1: really started talking to this PR person cut you off
Speaker 1: and be like it's time to go, or did they
Speaker 1: just let it happen? Yeah, I mean I think like
Speaker 1: because they were only still a chat like twenty minutes,
Speaker 1: but I think he really started, you know, and he
Speaker 1: was really kind of I think getting his rhythm too,
Speaker 1: and so he went past what we were supposed to talk.
Speaker 1: So we spoke probably for thirty minutes or even more
Speaker 1: um and and you know, when he was answered, it
Speaker 1: was the first time they said he said that Facebook
Speaker 1: should be regulated. It was um he said he would
Speaker 1: be willing to testify. And so we made a lot
Speaker 1: of news and by the way, that a lot of
Speaker 1: that came from follow ups um and and really kind
Speaker 1: of pushing him on some of these things. But also
Speaker 1: because we had the time too, and we took the time.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm thinking, well, I think I
Speaker 1: have to be live in like an hour and a half.
Speaker 1: How are we going to do this? But you know,
Speaker 1: and and but it's also kind of like everything else
Speaker 1: disappears and um, and it's just you and that person.
Speaker 1: And it's also understanding the context of what's around you
Speaker 1: and um and not walking in And I've never been
Speaker 1: kind of a gotcha person, and I don't believe in
Speaker 1: taking the cheap shot. But I also don't believe in
Speaker 1: just listening to people kind of you know, saying their
Speaker 1: sound bites. And I also think people are more understood
Speaker 1: when they get beyond their sound bites, Like I actually
Speaker 1: think like I actually think they will be more happy
Speaker 1: with the interview if they're able to actually say more too,
Speaker 1: and you can push them and challenge them in the
Speaker 1: right way. So I think we got into a good
Speaker 1: cadence and I think it was a historical moment in tech.
Speaker 1: I think that you know, it's like an almost famous
Speaker 1: like the guy with his like eyes wide open, like
Speaker 1: where you gotta you gotta just like you know, everything
Speaker 1: changes and you've got to ask the hard questions and
Speaker 1: and tech has become for all the good it has
Speaker 1: created a lot of bad and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: accountability to be had and a lot of complicated questions,
Speaker 1: and I want to be the one asking those questions.
Speaker 1: Do you think, in your personal opinion, because you've been
Speaker 1: doing this for a long time, do you think it
Speaker 1: was meaningful? Do you think it was um, just another
Speaker 1: way to take accountability but not truly need it, because
Speaker 1: that's what happens a lot. I think that I think
Speaker 1: it was meaningful. I think that Facebook was going through
Speaker 1: a huge transition at the time. I think that Facebook
Speaker 1: had to grow up, truthfully, and I think they were
Speaker 1: growing up. I think that for a very long time
Speaker 1: they didn't understand um, you know, that they needed to
Speaker 1: be more open with the media and more with other people,
Speaker 1: that that kind of thing. And I think that, um,
Speaker 1: that all changed, UM after so much went wrong with
Speaker 1: the election and you know, in with Cambridge Analytica it
Speaker 1: was one to three and people lost their patience, UM,
Speaker 1: and so they had no choice and they had to
Speaker 1: start putting Mark out there and Marked have to be
Speaker 1: out there before, you know. But it's interesting because he
Speaker 1: hadn't done tons of press. So by the time he's
Speaker 1: starting to do press, like UM, I had this joke.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like puberty's painful, especially when you're prompting.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's like you're going out there.
Speaker 1: It's one of the most powerful people and now in
Speaker 1: the world, but you haven't been out there much. And
Speaker 1: so it was such a fascinating, um fascinating thing to
Speaker 1: to be a part of it, especially because I think
Speaker 1: I have a nuanced view of technology just because I
Speaker 1: kind of grew up in it. We have to take
Speaker 1: a quick break, but when we come back, we're gonna
Speaker 1: be talking more about how do we know what's true
Speaker 1: on the Internet, how we can take back to power
Speaker 1: and the incredible documentary and the Social Dilemma, and we're back.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts when Mark Zuckerberg went before Congress
Speaker 1: and talked about his defense in not fact checking people's posts.
Speaker 1: I mean, how do we make sure we get the
Speaker 1: correct information out there when the founder of Facebook won't
Speaker 1: even ensure that? Well, I think it's it's a hard
Speaker 1: it's a it's a hard question, right because, um, you
Speaker 1: Mark has the famous line if he doesn't want to
Speaker 1: be the art of truth, right, like, and you almost
Speaker 1: to a degree, like, do you trust Mark Zuckerberg to
Speaker 1: be fact checking things like you know, and and for
Speaker 1: for a very long time, it's like what I think,
Speaker 1: it's a larger conversation of what what role and responsibility
Speaker 1: do you want to put on technology? And I think
Speaker 1: it's an important societal question and it's one that is
Speaker 1: like completely clashed in the last couple of years because
Speaker 1: for so long when I interviewed tech founders, whether it
Speaker 1: was you know, Jack Dorsey Williams from Twitter or any
Speaker 1: any of these guys, it was we're just the pipes,
Speaker 1: were not responsible, um for for the content on our platforms.
Speaker 1: Well that's all changing now, you know. And and now
Speaker 1: because you have misinformation, you have so much stuff that
Speaker 1: has gone wrong, you have hate that's literally turned offline,
Speaker 1: gone viral, and is like changing user behavior, changing elections.
Speaker 1: You know, it's time for a change. And and so
Speaker 1: I think there's a larger conversation now about what should
Speaker 1: those laws be and should be tech be regulated, which
Speaker 1: I think the answer is a hard yes. But what
Speaker 1: kind of regulation is you know, is the right type
Speaker 1: of regulation and who should be doing it and what
Speaker 1: is right and what is wrong exactly. I think it's
Speaker 1: been interesting in this election to see. Um, when Donald
Speaker 1: Trump tweets, you'll see Twitter will will put it makes
Speaker 1: me laugh so hard. Yeah, you know, but but that
Speaker 1: wasn't the case like four years ago. And and even Facebook.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting to see how they both handle
Speaker 1: them different But I mean, there's so much more pressure
Speaker 1: on it now. But misinformation is you know. I think
Speaker 1: at the time I've been covering uh tech, like even
Speaker 1: this idea of truth has been so just and what
Speaker 1: is truth anymore? It's so scary to see that we
Speaker 1: are all living in these different realities, in this utopia
Speaker 1: of technology that was going to connect the world, and
Speaker 1: that that these hippies that I knew, who were engineers,
Speaker 1: who were musicians with tattoos and thought they were going
Speaker 1: to change everything, have created some of the most profound
Speaker 1: problems that we will be facing uh and and that
Speaker 1: will become the problems that we and our children will
Speaker 1: deal with, and that have fractured society in a way
Speaker 1: that is so fundamental. It is extraordinary because they did
Speaker 1: not think of the human impact of the algorithms. Um
Speaker 1: and and so do I want Martin Zuckerberg fact checking me? No,
Speaker 1: But do I think that they could have done a
Speaker 1: better job and a more consistent job and thought of
Speaker 1: these questions earlier A thousand percent. Yeah, and I think,
Speaker 1: like you're saying, it's really scary that, like in the
Speaker 1: Social Dilemma show, you could search climate change in like
Speaker 1: New York and then search it somewhere else in like Alabama,
Speaker 1: and completely different results will show up. So it really
Speaker 1: does blur what the truth is To speak to that, like,
Speaker 1: how do we even find the truth? Now? How do
Speaker 1: we know what it is? Right? Well, it's funny because
Speaker 1: it's like we have our version of the truth right,
Speaker 1: and like it's like what we believe is true, and
Speaker 1: then it's like the facts and and facts right, you know,
Speaker 1: and then you have I mean, by the way, I
Speaker 1: did a lot of work on Q and on and
Speaker 1: looking at Q and on and conspiracy theories and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Which is this group that was amplified by the way
Speaker 1: by Facebook, um of you know, folks who just completely
Speaker 1: do not believe and any version they believe their own
Speaker 1: version of what they believe is true. Um. And it's
Speaker 1: just extraordinary. Yeah, I mean, I think you have distrust
Speaker 1: and mainstream media now in a way that you have
Speaker 1: never ever had before. And if that's for many reasons
Speaker 1: I believe. I think mainstream media has changed quite a bit.
Speaker 1: And then you also have the president who's attacked mainstream
Speaker 1: media for the last four years. And so all of
Speaker 1: these things have come together and the Internet, it's like
Speaker 1: created this perfect storm, um, and this moment in time
Speaker 1: amplified by technology. It's so fascinating how much of a
Speaker 1: role technology plays into all this because someone might not
Speaker 1: think it at first glance. Something I find really interesting
Speaker 1: is that, like you said, mainstream DA it's very controversial now,
Speaker 1: but for example, like when Fox News declare that Buyen's president,
Speaker 1: are they fake news? Now? It's like that blurred of
Speaker 1: what is personal reality? Right? You know, I actually think,
Speaker 1: um down the line, Um, I have a company called
Speaker 1: dot dot dot Media the right, We're we're a niche
Speaker 1: kind of media company. But I actually think there's gonna
Speaker 1: be a lot of room. Um. And this isn't just
Speaker 1: being plugging or doing I genuinely think, and you see
Speaker 1: it popping up all over the place, Like I think
Speaker 1: we're going to see a lot of alternative channels um,
Speaker 1: of people just living in their own version you know,
Speaker 1: um for better, I am for worse to how do
Speaker 1: we think that because technology can be very scary, and
Speaker 1: I I think we need to create do everything we can.
Speaker 1: So what can the people listening do that feel helpless
Speaker 1: because this is very scary and it could go down
Speaker 1: a very dark path. But how can we reverse that?
Speaker 1: How can we make it so technology can be used
Speaker 1: to impact society for the good and the impact for
Speaker 1: the negative much less well? I think also, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think even being a little more cognizant of what
Speaker 1: you're reading and what you're tweeting and what you're sharing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that sounds so simple, but even Twitter,
Speaker 1: I think recently made a product change where instead of
Speaker 1: just retweeting, they ask you or you know, they do
Speaker 1: you want to like quote something first and then retweet it.
Speaker 1: Same with Instagram it's a few stories. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: that that product decision actually made a huge difference in
Speaker 1: people spreading this information. So, first of all, that can
Speaker 1: come from the top tech companies can't do something and
Speaker 1: they should be doing something. Shouldn't just be lip service,
Speaker 1: you know, UM, And then I think people have a
Speaker 1: responsibility to um. But we are in a moment of pain,
Speaker 1: like we are in a moment where people are so
Speaker 1: angry where everyone is on their own sides. Like I
Speaker 1: even think, um, you know, with this election and with
Speaker 1: people out celebrating or being UNHAPPI or you know, I
Speaker 1: think part of part of I am part time with
Speaker 1: a new Initiative for sixty minutes and I spent time
Speaker 1: with militia groups and Q and on and the group
Speaker 1: called the Boogle Boo Boys who are caring around an
Speaker 1: A R fifteens and their very anti government and wow, no, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Wednesday, you know. But you know, but the
Speaker 1: thing is, I think people, um, and pain is real,
Speaker 1: and people have lost jobs, and we're in a tough spot,
Speaker 1: and the internet makes a lot of that worse. And
Speaker 1: I think, uh, empathy. I still go back to that
Speaker 1: line that I um that I wrote that I was
Speaker 1: trying to talk to entrepreneurs about. I think, um, you know,
Speaker 1: if we want to get out of the polarization, we've
Speaker 1: got to talk to each other to some degree, right, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that that's important and not just
Speaker 1: stay in our own lane and stay in our own side.
Speaker 1: And that can be not just on the Internet, but
Speaker 1: in real life. Believe it or not, have imagined that, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, listen and and and listening. You know, even
Speaker 1: if you don't agree with it, I think tech companies
Speaker 1: have a huge responsibility. I think they will be regulated,
Speaker 1: and I think they need diversity. And I think they
Speaker 1: needed more people that aren't white men truthfully. UM. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's important too. And I think, UM,
Speaker 1: there's a lot, there's a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wish I could have one answer and
Speaker 1: wave my my magic wand and fix. And I think
Speaker 1: you need nuanced content. I've always believed in this. I
Speaker 1: I was never a fan of just doing two minutes
Speaker 1: on TV of like open here it is. So, is
Speaker 1: that what you're trying to do with your media company?
Speaker 1: Dot dot dot from me? UM, looking at technology through
Speaker 1: the looking at humanity through that lens, looking at issues
Speaker 1: like the unintended consequences attack, looking at issues like love
Speaker 1: and politics and you name it. Mental health is a
Speaker 1: big one, UM. Looking at these corner stories and the
Speaker 1: people that people kind of turn away from UM and
Speaker 1: being able to tell their stories in a more interesting,
Speaker 1: nuanced way that's not people shouting at each other. That
Speaker 1: allows us to hit it from all sides. UM. That's
Speaker 1: always been something I feel pretty strongly about and hearing
Speaker 1: those stories from the powerhouses in Silicon Valley, but also
Speaker 1: the people that are ignored. I got the name. I
Speaker 1: remember someone telling me I was the human equivalent of
Speaker 1: dot dot dot, Like you know, when you're texting someone,
Speaker 1: you're a waiting and like what are they gonna say? Um?
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, I'm like, I feel like this
Speaker 1: moment is so dot dot dot right, Like we don't
Speaker 1: know what's going to happen. Um, We're just kind of
Speaker 1: waiting for it to play out, and the anxious like
Speaker 1: when I say, there's so much to say, um, and
Speaker 1: we just don't know what's going to be said. So
Speaker 1: I'm kind of okay with not tying the bow. I
Speaker 1: think that's the story of my life. Like I'm totally
Speaker 1: okay with not tying the bow. That's hard for me
Speaker 1: because I like to know things and I like to
Speaker 1: have things planned out. So it's it's it's actually your
Speaker 1: worst nightmare, it really is. That's why the time that
Speaker 1: we're living very scary for me as someone who likes
Speaker 1: you know what's happening. Yeah, Okay, we have to take
Speaker 1: one more quick break, but when we come back, I
Speaker 1: want to know who your best interview was, your worst interview,
Speaker 1: and your toughest interview you've ever had. We'll be right back,
Speaker 1: and we're back. You've interviewed so many people, from Mark
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg to Bill Gates? What has been your toughest interview,
Speaker 1: your favorite interview? And if you can answer your worst interview? Um,
Speaker 1: my favorite interview, my worst interview. UM, well, I guess
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk about it probably in the book, so
Speaker 1: I guess I could. I couldn't give some hints at it.
Speaker 1: Um my least favorite interview. UM. Maybe I won't say
Speaker 1: his name because that's going to come out in the book,
Speaker 1: but a founder of a big tech company that we
Speaker 1: all know. He I remember asking him about women's safety
Speaker 1: because it was at a time when the company was
Speaker 1: dealing with many issues. This was like an online company, um.
Speaker 1: And I remember sitting in the newsroom with him and
Speaker 1: I put him on camera before a lot of people.
Speaker 1: It was one of those big, big tech multimillionaire about
Speaker 1: billionaire founder and I remember him taking off his mike
Speaker 1: and saying Lorie, like LORI and I was like, what
Speaker 1: you know, and he's like, I didn't know this was
Speaker 1: that kind of interview. And I was like, what do
Speaker 1: you mean what kind of interview? Um and uh, and
Speaker 1: he was like that kind of interview. And I remember
Speaker 1: him talking with turning over and talking to his PR
Speaker 1: person and discussing if he was going to leave um.
Speaker 1: And I think for me that was the moment that
Speaker 1: I don't say, it's fine, like ship out real, It's like,
Speaker 1: that was the moment where it was like, wait a second,
Speaker 1: I'm not here to be your mouthpiece. Right, I've always
Speaker 1: been fair. I've always treated people with respect. I've always
Speaker 1: asked the hard questions, but I've always you know, I've
Speaker 1: always treated people with kindness and with respect. Um. I
Speaker 1: think for me that was that was a pretty extraordinary
Speaker 1: moment because it showed this it was it was when
Speaker 1: the minnows turned to sharks. Like when Silicon Valley, I
Speaker 1: think it had officially kind of crossed over from me
Speaker 1: and not everyone in Silicon Valley was like that, right
Speaker 1: at all, by the way at all. But the arrogance
Speaker 1: there that that this person had a company that was
Speaker 1: worth more than like Campbell soup, right, you know, and
Speaker 1: and that I didn't think that he needed to answer
Speaker 1: questions on on basic questions like what about like we
Speaker 1: take women's safety very seriously, like you know, and and
Speaker 1: I think that was so that was probably my worst.
Speaker 1: I mean, he stayed for the rest of the interview,
Speaker 1: but that got weird. Uh, let's see. Toughest the tough
Speaker 1: interviews are when people don't want to say something and
Speaker 1: they need to say something, you know. The tough interviews
Speaker 1: are a dance and like the other person and you're
Speaker 1: just like you feel like you're doing like like yeah,
Speaker 1: you're doing like a ninja dance and they're just like foxtrotting.
Speaker 1: I love that comparison, you know, and it's like that's
Speaker 1: that's this eats up and only specifically through that either
Speaker 1: I don't don't think that at me, but I can't
Speaker 1: right now. And then the good interviews for me, I
Speaker 1: love interviews that enabled people to some degree to take
Speaker 1: their power back. Um. You know, I did a lot.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just the tech founders that I interviewed, um
Speaker 1: that were my favorite interviews. Like my favorite interviews were,
Speaker 1: you know, women who have been you know, I did
Speaker 1: a whole special back in the day when people didn't
Speaker 1: even know what the word like revenge born was, which
Speaker 1: is like a horrible type of harassment, like mostly against women.
Speaker 1: Were like men post images of naked women online. It's
Speaker 1: like a form of like power and all sorts of
Speaker 1: stuff and and it wasn't even in the dictionary at
Speaker 1: the time, and women couldn't get their images off the
Speaker 1: internet were ruined lives. And I remember interviewing a woman
Speaker 1: named Nikki who was who was so scared to go
Speaker 1: on camera, and when I did put her on camera,
Speaker 1: she said, every time I look at someone, I wonder
Speaker 1: if they've seen me naked. And I couldn't even envision
Speaker 1: what that would feel like, in the shame and the
Speaker 1: humiliation it would be for someone, um, you know too,
Speaker 1: and what that would do to your psyche right to
Speaker 1: walk around and wonder if people around you had, you know,
Speaker 1: had seen you like that. And it was just such
Speaker 1: a the type of harassment it was that this guy
Speaker 1: he had taped her without her consent, all those types
Speaker 1: of stuff type of stuff. It was just such a
Speaker 1: form of power. And when she we did this interview,
Speaker 1: it was almost like pointing the camera at her with
Speaker 1: her consent, right, like she was able to take back
Speaker 1: that power back. And I really that I liked and
Speaker 1: so like I've interviewed hackers and and UM and victims
Speaker 1: of UM, you know, of crimes and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1: So I think those are probably more my favorite interviews.
Speaker 1: And then some founders, I yeah, and founders I think
Speaker 1: are also really interesting. Life is messy, and I like
Speaker 1: people who talk about it, you know, it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: I've been into UM San Quentin the prison and interviewed
Speaker 1: a lot of prisoners about UM. They have a really
Speaker 1: interesting startup program where they teach them how to code there.
Speaker 1: But I've interviewed a lot of them about their crimes
Speaker 1: and what makes them, you know, what makes them a
Speaker 1: good entrepreneur. Also, so there's like a fine line between
Speaker 1: that thing that makes you a good entrepreneur, like and
Speaker 1: and also what can if those skills used in a
Speaker 1: bad way can be very very bad And and so
Speaker 1: I also I've always been a big believer and kind
Speaker 1: of walking into situations that you might that might make
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable and and going in in like a very real, genuine,
Speaker 1: non judgmental way and trying to understand human nature. I
Speaker 1: think technology has always just been my way into talking
Speaker 1: about the human condition. Condition. If I do my job right.
Speaker 1: You mentioned a book. Is that coming soon? Yes, I
Speaker 1: have a book. It's coming, Um, it's coming in auguste.
Speaker 1: So hopefully things will be better and I can go
Speaker 1: on book tour and you know, hopefully by then we'll
Speaker 1: we'll have well, you know, be uh will be in
Speaker 1: a better position in society. But it's going to be
Speaker 1: a lot of these stories. I'm yeah, I'll send it
Speaker 1: to you. It's it's gonna be called dot dot dot.
Speaker 1: So it all it's all about Yeah, it's very un
Speaker 1: frand so it's all about um, you know, tech and
Speaker 1: society and that's the second wave of tech and asking
Speaker 1: for what you want. And it's it's my story, but
Speaker 1: it's really kind of the story of um of kind
Speaker 1: of this the second wave of tech. So it's it
Speaker 1: should be hopefully exciting. Well, I am so excited. And
Speaker 1: like we've talked about, has been a crazy year. Um
Speaker 1: and I've been feeling very helpless like many others yea,
Speaker 1: And so I wanted for this season, I wanted to
Speaker 1: highlight a charity each episode so we can bring attention
Speaker 1: to some good in the world. So I was wondering,
Speaker 1: if you're a charity that you're passionate about that we
Speaker 1: should highlight and talk about. You know, I've always I've
Speaker 1: always supported charity water, but I feel like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I also feel like there's room for for other ones.
Speaker 1: So if I come up with another one, I'm going
Speaker 1: to send you some other links. If that's okay too, Okay,
Speaker 1: we will include it and I will link it in
Speaker 1: my bio and it's we'll mention. Okay, wonderful, wonderful, um,
Speaker 1: and thank you. I appreciate your time. It's been fine, awesome.
Speaker 1: It was so great to meet too. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for taking the time. Yeah, I appreciate it. And
Speaker 1: I will be listening. I love your stuff, so I'll
Speaker 1: be listening to all your interviews. All right, guys, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for listening to this week's episode of
Speaker 1: Let's Be Real. As always, don't forget to subscribe to
Speaker 1: the podcast if you haven't already, leave a comment because
Speaker 1: I always love to hear your feedback. And don't forget
Speaker 1: to follow me on Instagram at It's Sammy J. That's
Speaker 1: I T S S A M M Y J A
Speaker 1: y E. And also go follow Lorie Siegel on all
Speaker 1: her social media. It's Lorie Siegel. And please check out
Speaker 1: her multimedia company dot dot dot. It's really cool and
Speaker 1: I think you'll like it. And if you're still here,
Speaker 1: I have a little sneak peek for you because next
Speaker 1: week's guest is singer, songwriter dancer Tate McGray and it's
Speaker 1: an awesome conversation and I am so ready for you
Speaker 1: to listen to it next Tuesday. Stay tuned. Bye guys,