WEBVTT - The Victims Need a Voice 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:03.440 Welcome to the piked In Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:05.880 and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:08.680 I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.799 to pull my toes out as opposed to the families 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:16.240 who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases, 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.959 destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.840 as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.400 things and talking with family members and law enforcement and 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.240 people in the community, it just became clear to me. 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:35.280 I guess that this was a special place. This is 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:39.720 the Pikedon Massacre. Returned to Pike County, Season two, Episode six, 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.559 The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.120 producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:50.400 The day that eight members of the Rodent family were 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.559 found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story for 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.840 the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she spoke 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.639 with members of the victims families, the Manli's and Gillies 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.200 in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's the only 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.520 journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the Wagner family. 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.160 Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead. Graves sat 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:14.800 down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty, and 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.520 his accused mother, Angela. We finally got Chris Graves to 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.880 sit down for an interview after many tries. She's speaking 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:24.600 out now because she feels it's imperative that the victims 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.480 have a voice in this story. This is highly significant 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.920 due to the current gag orders. Here she is speaking 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.640 to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did you 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.280 first hear about the Rodent murders? So I first heard 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:43.000 about the crime the friday in which it broke. I 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.119 saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first news 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.680 of this was that there were people dead in Pike 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.080 County and that the police were beginning to investigate. So 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:58.560 my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted our 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.320 editors and said, this is our story, this is what 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.520 I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more than 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.440 one location along Union Hill Road and piked in this morning. 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.560 My two PM investigators say they found eight people dead, 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.639 seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy, all 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:16.960 from the road. And family. There is a shooter or 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.960 shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody right now. 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.000 Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly wipe out 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:27.800 this entire family. I was trying to get somebody who's 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.000 on the ground, who has eyes, who can help you 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:34.280 as a reporter, because when stories like this begin to unfold, 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:36.800 there's just so much you don't know. You don't know anything. 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.320 There was a church right across from Union Hill Road, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.680 and I managed to get Reverend Phil Fulton on the phone, 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.280 and I, you know, I just started interviewing him. And 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.200 during the course of that conversation, I could hear the 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.720 Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared to be a family 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.080 member who turned out to be Leonard Manly. Leonard is 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:03.400 the father of Dama Many Roden, also the grandfather of 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:09.120 Hannah Roden, Chris Junior, and all of the kids. So 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.520 I asked him if he could put Leonard Manley on 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.760 the phone, and he did, and that was the first 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.680 time I talked with a family member. He was able 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:22.080 to tell me in that conversation who they believed had 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:26.320 been killed, and it was his daughter who found the 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.760 first four victims, who made the first nine one one call, 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:35.400 which we've all heard. I was trying to on the phone, 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.280 pieced together who all these people, what their relationships were, 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.080 Who were they, what were their relationships? It was certainly 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.280 horrific and tragic. Pikeden is a small community where everyone 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.600 knows everyone, and as you can imagine, the town is 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.480 just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really, it 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.840 is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy. I 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.360 just don't understand why it happened here. It was one 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:02.120 of the things, you know, pinched me, wake me up. 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:07.680 Sometimes I'll wake up, but they'll just feel like a dream. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.920 On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:16.440 way to Pike County. That church became a place for 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:21.200 both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.080 asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.840 service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.919 down into church and listened to his sermon. What was 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:36.320 that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church, 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.880 it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.480 in the community, has lived in the community, sort of 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:46.520 grew up there. He preached there for forty three years. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.800 He talked a lot about this is what a church does. 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.520 It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.599 haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.800 for the community to come together and support a family. 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.240 There was a lot of singing in turn to the 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:09.599 scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:14.279 evil and what evil would descend to do this small 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.719 country church just up the way north of RU thirty two, 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.000 helping some of the family and friends as they come 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.280 to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe the 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.000 evil community is? I don't think you can really describe. 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.359 It is just unbelievable. These things that's happening and going on, 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.440 and such tragedies like this, we should not have them. 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.760 You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.240 puzzle that you were trying to put together so that 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.240 others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.000 to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.720 is in a relationship with whom and how were these 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.920 people connected, what could have happened, where did they work, 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:56.800 what's all the prior criminal history of everybody, and you're 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.640 sort of left as a reporter to I mean, really 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.719 kind of do knock on doors, talk to people, try 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:05.920 to figure out, you know, talk to the people who 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.800 are closest to the information, and begin to sort of 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:13.440 piece stuff together. And what was the result of that. 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.440 I think this part of America gets a little bit 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:18.280 of a rap that it's a very and it is. 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:23.080 It is insular, but it's also kind. People were kind 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.320 when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know, at least 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.600 to me. And I just I really just wanted to 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.960 understand the victims. I wanted to understand family. So I 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:38.719 spent hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members, but 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.640 people who lived, you know, down the road and across 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.680 the way, and you know, the librarian, and I mean 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.800 all kinds of you know, certainly the sheriff and the 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.000 attorney general and all of that. People call it and 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.720 we did too, the road in case of the road, 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:01.760 and certainly their family lost the most people, which sounds 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.280 horrific even to say. I mean, I just like, there's 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.640 no good words for any of this, but I mean 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.880 there are three family units. The Manlies, the Gillies, and 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:16.760 the rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned into 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:18.920 a rodent or a footnote, right, we don't get to 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.960 explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other thing 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.720 I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call Hannah 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.360 Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.680 You know, she became I think, by default a rodent. 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.200 So when we first started writing, and I mean I 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.760 did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well, 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.000 it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.960 I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:49.320 to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.960 for her son, you know, was really into nursing and 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.400 the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy. 0:07:55.800 --> 0:08:01.440 She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie. 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.040 They were you know, it's everything, building a life. She 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.920 saw herself as a road And having said that, she's 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:12.920 still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:18.000 essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.080 to each other, and their families or have been in 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:26.600 various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.960 and the children, which is what hit me the hardest. 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.760 I'm a mother of two. And the idea that there 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:38.160 were three very small children at the crime scenes and 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:43.120 they were found alive and physically unharmed resonated with me. 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.280 Ohio Attorney General Mike Dwine giving an update. Three children 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.280 did survive, a four day old, a six month old, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.079 and a three year old. I think what makes this 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.120 particularly grizzly is the fact that you have these children 0:08:55.160 --> 0:09:00.600 involved who obviously were there when executions took place. You know, heartbreaking. 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.439 I mean, you know the one mom apparently was killed 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.520 with the four day old right there. I mean, it's just, 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:12.240 you know, which it's just hard to believe. Then I 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.040 went and did my first column, and I just went 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:21.720 driving Pike County. It's pretty, rolling hills, It's absolutely beautiful, 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.320 and it was starting to warm up. Things were beginning 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:28.679 to bloom. There were fields of yellow and purple, and 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:33.160 I mean, it's just it was just absolutely beautiful. All 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.520 of the things that someone who looks for ways in 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.640 which to tell stories you look for, right, I mean, 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.360 as this county was going through its spring rebirth, it 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.800 struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort of 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:52.240 these beautiful fields of yellow flowers, and I just could 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.240 not get those three children out of my head. And 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.959 I just started looking out and I started to cry, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.600 I truthfully, and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed, 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.200 but I I came around or down a hill and 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.200 I saw a house just sort of out on its own, with, 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.840 you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch, 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.800 and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.240 in them. And I sort of started thinking about this 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:26.680 lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.959 just started going through my head and I was remembering 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.520 pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.920 about those children and who would rock them to sleep, 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.400 and who would hold them tight, and who, you know, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.520 who would sing them lullabies to sleep. And I thought, 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:50.679 that's what this is about. This was more than just 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.800 a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing. 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.040 It's about who takes care of those babies and what 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.840 in the world happened here, and those children's lives will 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:08.320 never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected, 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.920 and the ripple effects of that which will go on 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:16.200 for decades and generations. They now are and will forever 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:23.320 be bound by this horrible tragedy. But both their strength 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.720 and their resilience and their resolve and their pain, I mean, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.960 it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.679 with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:43.280 it's it's heartbreaking and um and just awe inspiring. Somehow 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:49.600 they're survivors. So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:56.319 imagine what this family has been through. Only the other families, 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:03.800 the Manlies, the Ali's, those families are suffering as much 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.200 as we are. They only know what we are all 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:14.280 going through every day we live with this. It never 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:21.240 goes away. I can tell you that even though it's 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:29.080 been extremely hard, that I know our family will never stop. 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:33.240 We will never give up. We will never give up 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:39.280 trying to find and bring the people whoever did this 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:49.480 to justice. We will not give up. Can you describe 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.680 your first impression to the Wagner's. My first interview with 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:57.199 Jake Wagner and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first, 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.240 twenty sixteen. You know, so, what is that six weeks 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.920 after the homicides. I had talked with other people who said, oh, 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:05.880 they probably aren't going to talk to you. They're pretty 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.800 to themselves. But I knew that Jake and Hannah had 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.679 been on a relationship and had had shared a child. 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.040 Said well, well, you know, we'll go try. I showed up, 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.160 and he and his mom agreed to the interview. He 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.920 and Angela outside their home, which was searched two years later. 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:29.400 We sat outside on a patio area and talked for 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.560 I don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.400 were children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.880 that they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know, 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.640 the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow, 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:49.599 here's a family who really digs their kids and or 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.079 grandkids in Angela's case, and I was trying to establish 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.680 who were the Wagners, Who are the Wagoners? When did 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.960 you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know? 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.880 He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:09.480 I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.400 if when we had talked that very first time, that 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.240 he was truly in love with Hannah. Whatever that means. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.680 But he thought that they were going to be that 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.600 it would all that there would be a reconciliation and 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.320 they would all come together, and he had this idea 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.440 in his head about what that would look like. And 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.200 I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man, 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:34.200 you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:35.600 he was saying, well, we were going to do this, 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:37.440 he and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.360 going to do this. My plan was this. And I 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.760 was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear, 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.200 I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.120 And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.400 quite know what to think of it. But again, I 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.040 try to keep my mind as open as possible when 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.120 I'm interviewing people. If in fact, what Jake Wagner said 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.760 is true, And he committed five of eight murders and 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:04.480 then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.200 then had the nerve to sit down with you straight 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.800 faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person. 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:17.040 That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.240 for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.080 gets harder the longer you do it, because the world, 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.720 you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:33.160 are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.400 they're not. I have a lot of questions, as someone 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.520 who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions, 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.440 as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean, it 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.280 seemed to me as if as I just painted, You know, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.960 there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.760 the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.920 could name movies they all watched together, the books he 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.600 would read her before they went to bed, what he 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:07.000 told her about where her mom was. You know that 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.120 mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.080 know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back. 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.160 Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.320 it was my understanding that this was his week to 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:28.520 have the child, and he had gotten the child a 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.160 day earlier then he would normally have done that. Fast 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.200 forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.920 by what he said in court, what we still don't 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:45.960 know is where all four of the Wagoners were the 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.600 night and early morning of the twenty first and twenty second. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.720 So there's an assumption I think that all four of 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:58.960 the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:04.280 if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake said, 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.359 and as you all know, what Jake said in court 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.720 is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for five 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.679 of the eight victims. So I don't know where his 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:20.399 brother was, his dad, or his mom. What was Angela Wagner? Like, 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:27.280 Jake talked a lot more than Angela, but Angela would 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:32.119 add on things as Jake talked. But any in person 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:36.240 interview I did with Jake, Angela was there and didn't leave. 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:38.640 I mean she was a mom. I mean that's how 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.240 I saw it. You know, she's a mom. Here her Again, 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.680 this is six weeks after these homicides, and when I 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.760 you know, and again I'm not trying to be sympathetic 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:52.160 to the Wagner's right now, I'm not, but again, dialing 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.840 back five years, I show up on your doorstep, and 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.560 if I'm the mom and my son has just lost 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.800 the mother of his child, I guess I thought she 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.399 was just being a protective mom. I'm here for my 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.919 kid kind of thing. Again, this all looks different today 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.560 than it did five years ago. At the time, did 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.000 you feel like they might have been guilty or did 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:17.959 you believe what they were saying or do you not 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.440 put yourself in that position to even have an opinion? 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.879 I had somebody asked me, I don't even know a 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:25.680 couple of years ago, what's it like to look into 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:27.920 the eyes of pure evil? I said, I don't know. 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.440 Sometimes I think that people think it would you would 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.040 just automatically. I don't know that some like I have 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.399 some kind of radar that go off that we're you know. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.960 But they weren't suspects, so I wasn't approaching them with 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.640 that in the back of my mind, like, oh, now 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.720 you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering. They 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.440 didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me, 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.239 because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.960 or don't use that, or that makes me nervous, or 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.879 I mean I don't recall any of that. You know. 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.640 It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.320 what are you doing or any of that. But I don't. 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.679 You know, again, you don't know what you don't know, 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.080 And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.320 and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:27.600 kill them? And they never responded. We're going to take 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.879 a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.880 In twenty seventeen, the investigation ramped up. More than two 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.199 dozen investigators are focused on solving one of Ohio's largest 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.200 mass murders in history. As of today, we've received eight 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.240 hundred and eighty three tips, we have conducted four hundred 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:58.199 and sixty five interviews, thirty eight search warrants have been issued, 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.840 and sixty cyber extractions have been done. They say they 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.160 made a significant progress in the investigation, believe more than 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.760 one person committed the crimes, but to day, the killers 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.440 are still on the loose. When did you hear that 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:16.080 the Wagoners were suspects? All of a sudden, I got 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.919 a tip from somebody. They said, hey, have you heard 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:23.120 about the search at the Wagoners? And it became really 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:27.680 clear to me that they must have had something, because 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.360 you'd have to have probable cause. So whatever it was 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.400 that got them probable cause to do the search, I thought, well, 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.199 they found something, because it isn't just going to be 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.560 a fishing expedition, right. So I got in my car 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.399 and I drove there, and there were helicopters up and 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.679 there were law enforcement, like on four wheelers. I was 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:50.560 sitting there at the search and someone said, well, you 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.560 know the house is sold. I said, no, I don't 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.520 know that. And then I sat in my car and 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.879 looked up the property records and saw that it was 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.919 on the market. And then you start connecting the dots 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.600 in your own head, right, And I was like, whoa 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:10.480 wait a minute, wait a minute. And then I found 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.879 out they were in Alaska. The Wagners were in Alaska. 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.399 And then I went to the editor and said, I 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.440 need to go to Alaska. I need to talk to them. 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.920 We have major developments tonight in a bazaar and tragic 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:26.720 murder case with ties between Ohio and Alaska. Investigators want 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.520 any information the public has about the Wagner family. That 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.600 someone has information, it really is in their best interest 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.560 to come forward voluntarily, thank you of us that information. 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.520 They're not messing around. We're going to ask for people 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.480 if they're building evidence from us, so it's in their 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.639 interests to come forward. They went somewhere where you had 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:49.960 to really want to find them, to find them, right, 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.200 It did seem like they were trying to get lost 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.640 in a way. They lived in a rural part that's 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:59.760 a Kenai peninsula, and Alaska is expansive, but I mean 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.800 everything is so far from everything else. I talked with 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:07.000 people in you know, a little like a little cafe. 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.680 People knew that they were there, but it wasn't any 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.680 big deal. They were like, oh, you mean the people 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:14.240 who are wanted in Ohio for killing all those people. 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.480 Attorney General Dwine you know, said they were you know that, 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:21.679 while not calling them suspects, said, you know, they were 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:26.000 laser focus of the investigation. And I'm like, well, actually, 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:30.159 they're not really wanted, you know. I mean that was 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.080 the thing that was really interesting. By the time the 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:35.439 news got there, most people thought they were wanted, but 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:39.080 that didn't seem to bother people. I remember quoting a 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.399 guy saying, well, this is where people come to get lost, 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.760 you know, it's no surprise. I remember being struck when 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.680 we drove there that, well, of course they live here. 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.840 It looks just like Pike County. You know, it's wooded, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:56.760 it's beautiful. When I knocked on the door, she came 0:22:56.800 --> 0:22:59.800 to the door and I said, Angela, I'm here, let's talk. 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.919 And she was sort of startled, I think to see me. 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:06.720 And then Jake came to the door, and the little 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:10.320 girl came, and Jake Wagner says, oh, my gosh, Chris, 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:11.919 it's so great to see you. It's so great to 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.439 see somebody. I mean, there was no trepidation, but Billie 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.200 did yell. I never saw him, but he yelled from 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:20.679 the living room, Hey, Angela, what are you doing? You know, 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.120 get back in here. And she's like, oh, don't mind him. 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.360 You know, his barks hours in his bite. I mean, 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:27.480 they were like, well, I don't know about this. We've 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.439 got a lawyer back in Ohio. I don't think we 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:34.280 should say anything until we talked to him. I was like, well, 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.440 I'd really like to do a sit down interview. I'd 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.120 really like to record it. Then it became a back 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.879 and forth about well, who's your lawyer, how do I 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:45.040 talk to him? Where do I get him? What will 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.680 we do? I need to talk to him, and then 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.840 I had a long conversation with him on the phone, 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:52.600 but he was in Ohio. So I go all the 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.720 way to Alaska to talk to somebody in Ohio, and 0:23:56.080 --> 0:23:59.720 he was the one who made it sound like the 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:03.880 Wan was harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:08.480 nothing but be cooperative. They've cooperated one hundred and ten percent. 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:14.960 They've given over their laptops, their phones, they've provided DNA, 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:21.080 they've agreed to any number of interviews with a BCI, 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:25.920 which is the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. They've told 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:30.439 authorities that they were going to Alaska. The state is 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:33.880 making them look like suspects when they haven't called them suspects. 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:36.600 And then he said that it probably wouldn't be a 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:40.640 good idea to give the interview like they basically agreed 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:43.320 to it, and then said, NOLP, never mind, we've changed 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:47.480 our mind, which is really unfortunate. It was the last 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:52.760 time Chris Graves would ever speak with the Wagner family. However, 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.400