1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked In Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get 4 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: to pull my toes out as opposed to the families 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases, 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: things and talking with family members and law enforcement and 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: people in the community, it just became clear to me. 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: I guess that this was a special place. This is 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: the Pikedon Massacre. Returned to Pike County, Season two, Episode six, 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: The day that eight members of the Rodent family were 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story for 16 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she spoke 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 1: with members of the victims families, the Manli's and Gillies 18 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's the only 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the Wagner family. 20 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead. Graves sat 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty, and 22 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: his accused mother, Angela. We finally got Chris Graves to 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: sit down for an interview after many tries. She's speaking 24 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: out now because she feels it's imperative that the victims 25 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: have a voice in this story. This is highly significant 26 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: due to the current gag orders. Here she is speaking 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did you 28 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: first hear about the Rodent murders? So I first heard 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: about the crime the friday in which it broke. I 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 1: saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first news 31 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: of this was that there were people dead in Pike 32 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: County and that the police were beginning to investigate. So 33 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted our 34 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: editors and said, this is our story, this is what 35 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more than 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: one location along Union Hill Road and piked in this morning. 37 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: My two PM investigators say they found eight people dead, 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy, all 39 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: from the road. And family. There is a shooter or 40 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody right now. 41 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly wipe out 42 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: this entire family. I was trying to get somebody who's 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: on the ground, who has eyes, who can help you 44 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: as a reporter, because when stories like this begin to unfold, 45 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: there's just so much you don't know. You don't know anything. 46 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: There was a church right across from Union Hill Road, 47 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: and I managed to get Reverend Phil Fulton on the phone, 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: and I, you know, I just started interviewing him. And 49 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: during the course of that conversation, I could hear the 50 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared to be a family 51 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: member who turned out to be Leonard Manly. Leonard is 52 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: the father of Dama Many Roden, also the grandfather of 53 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: Hannah Roden, Chris Junior, and all of the kids. So 54 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: I asked him if he could put Leonard Manley on 55 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: the phone, and he did, and that was the first 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: time I talked with a family member. He was able 57 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: to tell me in that conversation who they believed had 58 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: been killed, and it was his daughter who found the 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: first four victims, who made the first nine one one call, 60 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: which we've all heard. I was trying to on the phone, 61 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: pieced together who all these people, what their relationships were, 62 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: Who were they, what were their relationships? It was certainly 63 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: horrific and tragic. Pikeden is a small community where everyone 64 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: knows everyone, and as you can imagine, the town is 65 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really, it 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy. I 67 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: just don't understand why it happened here. It was one 68 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: of the things, you know, pinched me, wake me up. 69 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll wake up, but they'll just feel like a dream. 70 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her 71 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: way to Pike County. That church became a place for 72 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I 73 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church 74 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went 75 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 1: down into church and listened to his sermon. What was 76 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church, 77 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives 78 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: in the community, has lived in the community, sort of 79 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: grew up there. He preached there for forty three years. 80 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: He talked a lot about this is what a church does. 81 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe 82 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need 83 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: for the community to come together and support a family. 84 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: There was a lot of singing in turn to the 85 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about 86 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: evil and what evil would descend to do this small 87 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: country church just up the way north of RU thirty two, 88 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: helping some of the family and friends as they come 89 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe the 90 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: evil community is? I don't think you can really describe. 91 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: It is just unbelievable. These things that's happening and going on, 92 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: and such tragedies like this, we should not have them. 93 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic 94 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: puzzle that you were trying to put together so that 95 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying 96 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who 97 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: is in a relationship with whom and how were these 98 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: people connected, what could have happened, where did they work, 99 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: what's all the prior criminal history of everybody, and you're 100 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: sort of left as a reporter to I mean, really 101 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: kind of do knock on doors, talk to people, try 102 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, talk to the people who 103 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: are closest to the information, and begin to sort of 104 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: piece stuff together. And what was the result of that. 105 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: I think this part of America gets a little bit 106 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: of a rap that it's a very and it is. 107 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: It is insular, but it's also kind. People were kind 108 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know, at least 109 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: to me. And I just I really just wanted to 110 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: understand the victims. I wanted to understand family. So I 111 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: spent hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members, but 112 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: people who lived, you know, down the road and across 113 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: the way, and you know, the librarian, and I mean 114 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: all kinds of you know, certainly the sheriff and the 115 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: attorney general and all of that. People call it and 116 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: we did too, the road in case of the road, 117 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: and certainly their family lost the most people, which sounds 118 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: horrific even to say. I mean, I just like, there's 119 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: no good words for any of this, but I mean 120 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: there are three family units. The Manlies, the Gillies, and 121 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: the rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned into 122 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: a rodent or a footnote, right, we don't get to 123 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other thing 124 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call Hannah 125 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden. 126 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: You know, she became I think, by default a rodent. 127 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: So when we first started writing, and I mean I 128 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well, 129 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent. 130 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going 131 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived 132 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: for her son, you know, was really into nursing and 133 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy. 134 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie. 135 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: They were you know, it's everything, building a life. She 136 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: saw herself as a road And having said that, she's 137 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to 138 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity 139 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: to each other, and their families or have been in 140 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that 141 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: and the children, which is what hit me the hardest. 142 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of two. And the idea that there 143 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: were three very small children at the crime scenes and 144 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: they were found alive and physically unharmed resonated with me. 145 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: Ohio Attorney General Mike Dwine giving an update. Three children 146 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: did survive, a four day old, a six month old, 147 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: and a three year old. I think what makes this 148 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: particularly grizzly is the fact that you have these children 149 00:08:55,160 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: involved who obviously were there when executions took place. You know, heartbreaking. 150 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: I mean, you know the one mom apparently was killed 151 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: with the four day old right there. I mean, it's just, 152 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, which it's just hard to believe. Then I 153 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: went and did my first column, and I just went 154 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: driving Pike County. It's pretty, rolling hills, It's absolutely beautiful, 155 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: and it was starting to warm up. Things were beginning 156 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: to bloom. There were fields of yellow and purple, and 157 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it was just absolutely beautiful. All 158 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: of the things that someone who looks for ways in 159 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: which to tell stories you look for, right, I mean, 160 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: as this county was going through its spring rebirth, it 161 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort of 162 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: these beautiful fields of yellow flowers, and I just could 163 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: not get those three children out of my head. And 164 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: I just started looking out and I started to cry, 165 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: I truthfully, and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed, 166 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: but I I came around or down a hill and 167 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: I saw a house just sort of out on its own, with, 168 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch, 169 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was 170 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: in them. And I sort of started thinking about this 171 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it 172 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: just started going through my head and I was remembering 173 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think 174 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: about those children and who would rock them to sleep, 175 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: and who would hold them tight, and who, you know, 176 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: who would sing them lullabies to sleep. And I thought, 177 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: that's what this is about. This was more than just 178 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing. 179 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: It's about who takes care of those babies and what 180 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: in the world happened here, and those children's lives will 181 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected, 182 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: and the ripple effects of that which will go on 183 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: for decades and generations. They now are and will forever 184 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: be bound by this horrible tragedy. But both their strength 185 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: and their resilience and their resolve and their pain, I mean, 186 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling 187 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully, 188 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: it's it's heartbreaking and um and just awe inspiring. Somehow 189 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: they're survivors. So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can 190 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: imagine what this family has been through. Only the other families, 191 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: the Manlies, the Ali's, those families are suffering as much 192 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: as we are. They only know what we are all 193 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: going through every day we live with this. It never 194 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: goes away. I can tell you that even though it's 195 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: been extremely hard, that I know our family will never stop. 196 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: We will never give up. We will never give up 197 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: trying to find and bring the people whoever did this 198 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: to justice. We will not give up. Can you describe 199 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: your first impression to the Wagner's. My first interview with 200 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first, 201 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. You know, so, what is that six weeks 202 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: after the homicides. I had talked with other people who said, oh, 203 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: they probably aren't going to talk to you. They're pretty 204 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: to themselves. But I knew that Jake and Hannah had 205 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: been on a relationship and had had shared a child. 206 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: Said well, well, you know, we'll go try. I showed up, 207 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: and he and his mom agreed to the interview. He 208 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: and Angela outside their home, which was searched two years later. 209 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: We sat outside on a patio area and talked for 210 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there 211 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: were children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars 212 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: that they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know, 213 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow, 214 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,599 Speaker 1: here's a family who really digs their kids and or 215 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: grandkids in Angela's case, and I was trying to establish 216 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: who were the Wagners, Who are the Wagoners? When did 217 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know? 218 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when 219 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as 220 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: if when we had talked that very first time, that 221 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: he was truly in love with Hannah. Whatever that means. 222 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: But he thought that they were going to be that 223 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: it would all that there would be a reconciliation and 224 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: they would all come together, and he had this idea 225 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: in his head about what that would look like. And 226 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man, 227 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean, 228 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: he was saying, well, we were going to do this, 229 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: he and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're 230 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: going to do this. My plan was this. And I 231 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear, 232 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up. 233 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't 234 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: quite know what to think of it. But again, I 235 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: try to keep my mind as open as possible when 236 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm interviewing people. If in fact, what Jake Wagner said 237 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: is true, And he committed five of eight murders and 238 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and 239 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: then had the nerve to sit down with you straight 240 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person. 241 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said 242 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It 243 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: gets harder the longer you do it, because the world, 244 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things 245 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things 246 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: they're not. I have a lot of questions, as someone 247 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions, 248 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean, it 249 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: seemed to me as if as I just painted, You know, 250 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all 251 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he 252 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: could name movies they all watched together, the books he 253 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: would read her before they went to bed, what he 254 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: told her about where her mom was. You know that 255 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't 256 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back. 257 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean, 258 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: it was my understanding that this was his week to 259 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: have the child, and he had gotten the child a 260 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: day earlier then he would normally have done that. Fast 261 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed 262 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: by what he said in court, what we still don't 263 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: know is where all four of the Wagoners were the 264 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: night and early morning of the twenty first and twenty second. 265 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: So there's an assumption I think that all four of 266 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know 267 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake said, 268 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: and as you all know, what Jake said in court 269 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for five 270 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: of the eight victims. So I don't know where his 271 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: brother was, his dad, or his mom. What was Angela Wagner? Like, 272 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: Jake talked a lot more than Angela, but Angela would 273 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: add on things as Jake talked. But any in person 274 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: interview I did with Jake, Angela was there and didn't leave. 275 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: I mean she was a mom. I mean that's how 276 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: I saw it. You know, she's a mom. Here her Again, 277 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: this is six weeks after these homicides, and when I 278 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, and again I'm not trying to be sympathetic 279 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: to the Wagner's right now, I'm not, but again, dialing 280 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: back five years, I show up on your doorstep, and 281 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: if I'm the mom and my son has just lost 282 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: the mother of his child, I guess I thought she 283 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: was just being a protective mom. I'm here for my 284 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: kid kind of thing. Again, this all looks different today 285 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: than it did five years ago. At the time, did 286 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: you feel like they might have been guilty or did 287 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: you believe what they were saying or do you not 288 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: put yourself in that position to even have an opinion? 289 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: I had somebody asked me, I don't even know a 290 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, what's it like to look into 291 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: the eyes of pure evil? I said, I don't know. 292 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes I think that people think it would you would 293 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: just automatically. I don't know that some like I have 294 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: some kind of radar that go off that we're you know. 295 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: But they weren't suspects, so I wasn't approaching them with 296 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: that in the back of my mind, like, oh, now 297 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering. They 298 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me, 299 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,239 Speaker 1: because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that, 300 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: or don't use that, or that makes me nervous, or 301 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: I mean I don't recall any of that. You know. 302 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or 303 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: what are you doing or any of that. But I don't. 304 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: You know, again, you don't know what you don't know, 305 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela 306 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you 307 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: kill them? And they never responded. We're going to take 308 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. 309 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, the investigation ramped up. More than two 310 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: dozen investigators are focused on solving one of Ohio's largest 311 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: mass murders in history. As of today, we've received eight 312 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty three tips, we have conducted four hundred 313 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: and sixty five interviews, thirty eight search warrants have been issued, 314 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: and sixty cyber extractions have been done. They say they 315 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: made a significant progress in the investigation, believe more than 316 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: one person committed the crimes, but to day, the killers 317 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: are still on the loose. When did you hear that 318 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: the Wagoners were suspects? All of a sudden, I got 319 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: a tip from somebody. They said, hey, have you heard 320 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: about the search at the Wagoners? And it became really 321 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: clear to me that they must have had something, because 322 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: you'd have to have probable cause. So whatever it was 323 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: that got them probable cause to do the search, I thought, well, 324 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: they found something, because it isn't just going to be 325 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: a fishing expedition, right. So I got in my car 326 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: and I drove there, and there were helicopters up and 327 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: there were law enforcement, like on four wheelers. I was 328 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: sitting there at the search and someone said, well, you 329 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: know the house is sold. I said, no, I don't 330 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: know that. And then I sat in my car and 331 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: looked up the property records and saw that it was 332 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: on the market. And then you start connecting the dots 333 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: in your own head, right, And I was like, whoa 334 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute. And then I found 335 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: out they were in Alaska. The Wagners were in Alaska. 336 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: And then I went to the editor and said, I 337 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: need to go to Alaska. I need to talk to them. 338 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: We have major developments tonight in a bazaar and tragic 339 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: murder case with ties between Ohio and Alaska. Investigators want 340 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: any information the public has about the Wagner family. That 341 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: someone has information, it really is in their best interest 342 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: to come forward voluntarily, thank you of us that information. 343 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: They're not messing around. We're going to ask for people 344 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: if they're building evidence from us, so it's in their 345 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: interests to come forward. They went somewhere where you had 346 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: to really want to find them, to find them, right, 347 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: It did seem like they were trying to get lost 348 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: in a way. They lived in a rural part that's 349 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: a Kenai peninsula, and Alaska is expansive, but I mean 350 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: everything is so far from everything else. I talked with 351 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: people in you know, a little like a little cafe. 352 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: People knew that they were there, but it wasn't any 353 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: big deal. They were like, oh, you mean the people 354 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: who are wanted in Ohio for killing all those people. 355 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: Attorney General Dwine you know, said they were you know that, 356 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: while not calling them suspects, said, you know, they were 357 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: laser focus of the investigation. And I'm like, well, actually, 358 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: they're not really wanted, you know. I mean that was 359 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: the thing that was really interesting. By the time the 360 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: news got there, most people thought they were wanted, but 361 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: that didn't seem to bother people. I remember quoting a 362 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: guy saying, well, this is where people come to get lost, 363 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's no surprise. I remember being struck when 364 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: we drove there that, well, of course they live here. 365 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: It looks just like Pike County. You know, it's wooded, 366 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: it's beautiful. When I knocked on the door, she came 367 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: to the door and I said, Angela, I'm here, let's talk. 368 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: And she was sort of startled, I think to see me. 369 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: And then Jake came to the door, and the little 370 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: girl came, and Jake Wagner says, oh, my gosh, Chris, 371 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: it's so great to see you. It's so great to 372 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: see somebody. I mean, there was no trepidation, but Billie 373 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: did yell. I never saw him, but he yelled from 374 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: the living room, Hey, Angela, what are you doing? You know, 375 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: get back in here. And she's like, oh, don't mind him. 376 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: You know, his barks hours in his bite. I mean, 377 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: they were like, well, I don't know about this. We've 378 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: got a lawyer back in Ohio. I don't think we 379 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: should say anything until we talked to him. I was like, well, 380 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: I'd really like to do a sit down interview. I'd 381 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: really like to record it. Then it became a back 382 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: and forth about well, who's your lawyer, how do I 383 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: talk to him? Where do I get him? What will 384 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: we do? I need to talk to him, and then 385 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: I had a long conversation with him on the phone, 386 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: but he was in Ohio. So I go all the 387 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: way to Alaska to talk to somebody in Ohio, and 388 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: he was the one who made it sound like the 389 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: Wan was harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done 390 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: nothing but be cooperative. They've cooperated one hundred and ten percent. 391 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: They've given over their laptops, their phones, they've provided DNA, 392 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: they've agreed to any number of interviews with a BCI, 393 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: which is the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. They've told 394 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: authorities that they were going to Alaska. The state is 395 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: making them look like suspects when they haven't called them suspects. 396 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: And then he said that it probably wouldn't be a 397 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: good idea to give the interview like they basically agreed 398 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: to it, and then said, NOLP, never mind, we've changed 399 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: our mind, which is really unfortunate. It was the last 400 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: time Chris Graves would ever speak with the Wagner family. However, 401 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: she recently returned to Pike County for the first time 402 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: in years after hearing some shocking news. Exactly five years 403 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: after the road and murders in Pike County, one of 404 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: the four defendants, Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all counts. 405 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: In exchange, he avoids the death penalty and will serve 406 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: multiple life sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother, 407 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: and brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty. 408 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: Prosecutors say that Jake will testify against them. Hearing the 409 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: prosecutor sort of described that he, you know, he's going 410 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 1: to change his plea and outlining the terms of the 411 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: plea arrangement, and then when she shared some details of 412 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: the crime, it was just was like, Oh my gosh, 413 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: this is really happening right now. I mean, I'm a journalist, 414 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: so I just sort of think about what are the facts, 415 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,239 Speaker 1: what's happening, what are they saying. I don't even know 416 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: if I really believe he personally killed five people. I thought, 417 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: is he trying to get his mom off? Is he 418 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: trying to paint the picture that his mom wasn't there 419 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: or dad? Somebody wasn't there, so he's gonna like top 420 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: the majority of them. All four were involved. But what 421 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: does that mean? Does that mean two were involved in 422 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: the planning other people did something, you know, somebody went 423 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: in and pulled all the trail cameras, but weren't involved 424 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: in the actual shooting. I don't again, we don't really 425 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: and I know I'm saying this all the time, but 426 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: we really don't know A ton of these details. A 427 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: lot of it, even with his guilty plea, is speculation. 428 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: So I don't know. I'm like, well, is he trying 429 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: to spare as he trying to lie about who was there? 430 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: I mean, he's lied before, so why would he tell 431 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: the complete truth? Now let's stop here for another quick break. 432 00:26:51,720 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Like everybody, I want 433 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: to know the answers. I want to know the details. 434 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: I want to know, like how you come up with this? 435 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: How do you do you? Are you all just sitting 436 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: around the kitchen table like plotting this? And at some point, 437 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 1: why is it that out of four people, somebody doesn't say, 438 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: uh no, no, it's one thing to talk about it. 439 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: But now we're doing it, and we're building silencers and 440 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: we're plotting things as I mean, as it's been described. 441 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: In some mental way, you're imagining you're doing something good 442 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: for the benefit of your kin, your grandchild, But why 443 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: would you put your own kids in the heart of murder? 444 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: And again the idea that of four people, of four 445 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: people who were supposedly religious people, not one of you 446 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: said thou shalt not kill not one of you, really, 447 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: not one of you had a moment where you said, 448 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: this is wrong, This is fundamentally catastrophically wrong. I honestly don't. 449 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: I cannot understand that, Like, was that a surprise to you, 450 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: that it was that it was them? No. The thing 451 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: that startled me, or continues to I guess that I 452 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: have a hard time wrapping my brain around, is that 453 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: you would annihilate eight people or an entire family over 454 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: the custody of your of the youngest member of that 455 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: mine could joined family. But I can't think it's got 456 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: to be about more than that. My gosh, I mean, 457 00:28:54,040 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 1: who does this or custody? You know, who destroys is 458 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: a family, decimates a family and in essence then destroying 459 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: that child's life to protect that. It just doesn't it 460 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: doesn't reconcile with me. I remember interviewing Tony Rowden, he's 461 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: the brother of the victims and uncle and all of that. 462 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: I remember Tony just saying Chris, and I can't, I mean, please, 463 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: don't let that be true. I hope that isn't true, 464 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: because that little girl does not deserve this, you know, 465 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: for her sake. I just I hope this isn't true 466 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: an he meant it. I mean it came from a 467 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: very deep and meaningful place. But I guess we're all 468 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: always looking for logical explanations to a logical acts. What 469 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: has been your experience being back in Pike County now 470 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: five years later? The question I've asked people here is 471 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: do people still think about this case? Do people still 472 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: talk about that? And the response that I've got is yes, 473 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: And I guess. I talked to a couple of people 474 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 1: the other day in a public setting, and they talked 475 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: in the terms of how tragic it is and how 476 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: it's inconceivable. But yeah, I think it's a ballacy, and 477 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: not just in this case, but in all cases, to 478 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: think that there's like a closure thing. I don't think 479 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: that exists. I drove past the crime scenes and they, 480 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: you know, interestingly, a couple buildings that remain there a 481 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: little bit more weathered, I noticed. But it feels like 482 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: time sort of is standing still there, you know, waiting 483 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: for an end to this. So I don't think this 484 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: brings anybody closure. I think that's some Hollywood nice version 485 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: of well, now you get to move on with your life. 486 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: I think that's frankly, bs, I think the amount of 487 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: loss and the ripple effects of that loss will be 488 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: felt for generations, but truthfully has become the most important 489 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: and meaningful story of my career. At the end of 490 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: the day, I was doing my work, and I try 491 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: to do that with compassion and empathy and understanding, as 492 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: well as trying to find facts and being hard when 493 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: I need to. But it's but then I get to leave, 494 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, I get to leave, and certainly they stay 495 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: with me, and they will always stay with me. But 496 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: I don't, you know, I don't wake up every morning 497 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: without a mother, without a son, without my grandchildren, without 498 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, I don't wake up having to figure out 499 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: how to tell those children what happened to their mothers 500 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: and fathers and cousins and uncles and that or I mean, 501 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: my goodness, you know, the conversations that are going to 502 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: have to be had with Jake and Hannah's daughter. I mean, 503 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: I don't have to do that. And that's what I 504 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: want people to think about when they think about this crime. 505 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we become fascinated with the inner workings 506 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: of how would one family do this to the other family. 507 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: These are people's lives and I cannot say that enough. 508 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: And that's what should not be forgotten in all of 509 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: this is that through all of the horrificness of the 510 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: crime these there are so many people left behind in 511 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: this wake. The family was decimated. So I guess that's 512 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: what that I hope people take away from this as 513 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: opposed to this a salacious story. On June twenty one, 514 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, accused brother George Wagner, will head back 515 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: to court for a hearing, one that could change the 516 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: landscape of the case moving forward. But as we wait, 517 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: we turn our attention to another story that has had 518 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: a lasting effect on a different community, just miles away 519 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: from Pike County. It centers around a notorious lawyer named 520 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: Michael Moran. He was arrested in twenty twenty on eighteen 521 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: charges related to running a prostitution ring. He's pleaded not 522 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: guilty to all of them and is currently awaiting trial. 523 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: He's accused of trafficking women all over the country, from 524 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: New York and New Jersey to Florida. A lot of 525 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: these women are part of marginalized society right Nobody was 526 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: listening to their stories before, or seeing them as even 527 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: human They were seeing them as criminals, people who would 528 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: rob them, people who were going to break into their house, 529 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: but nobody was really hearing from them. I wanted to 530 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: continue to investigate these stories, but I didn't know at 531 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: that time how big this was. More on that next time. 532 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 533 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and 534 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: Massacre Returned to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie 535 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by 536 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew 537 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: Becker and Chris Graves. We'd like to thank the maud 538 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: Hammond Fling Faculty Research Fellowship Grant, which supports faculty research 539 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, where Chris Graves teaches journalism. 540 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a 541 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from 542 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, visit iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 543 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.