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Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from

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Speaker 1: personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in

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Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother single mother, now widow, myself

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Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to

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Speaker 1: pay for college and lo and behold, my dad had

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Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

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Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why

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Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

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Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,

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Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you

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Speaker 1: and you can get same day coverage without ever leaving

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Speaker 1: your home. You can get up to three million dollars

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Speaker 1: in coverage and some policies start as low as two

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Speaker 1: dollars a day that would be billed monthly. As of

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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

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Speaker 1: one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. So protect

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Speaker 1: quoted ethos dot com slash chuck. So again, that's Ethos

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Speaker 1: rates themselves may vary as well, but trust me, life

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Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about, especially if

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Speaker 1: you've got a growing family. Hello there, I'm Chuck Todd.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of the Check podcast. We have

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Speaker 1: made it to December. First, we are getting close. We

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Speaker 1: are now the first day of the last month of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. I have to say this is this

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Speaker 1: has been a fascinating year for me personally for a

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Speaker 1: variety of reasons. Major transitions, both for myself professionally, my family,

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Speaker 1: empty nesting. Right, you put all that together, and let's

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Speaker 1: just say twenty twenty five has been a very It's

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Speaker 1: had its share of monumental moments in as far as

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Speaker 1: my household is concerned and my family is concerned. So here,

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Speaker 1: let's just say I feel like this year flew by.

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Speaker 1: I know for some of you it may be trudging along,

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Speaker 1: it may have taken forever. Politically, we can't say this

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Speaker 1: hasn't been an inactive year. This has been. It's a

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Speaker 1: phrase I used quite a bit during the Obama era

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Speaker 1: that now feels antiquated, because I think in the Trump

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Speaker 1: era it makes this following phrase more relevant and in

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Speaker 1: some ways a lot less relevant than Trump. I used

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Speaker 1: to say every day is a week, and every week

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Speaker 1: is a day in the Obama era. I think that's

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Speaker 1: true in the Trump era. At times, you know, times thousand,

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Speaker 1: if that's possible, right, Months feel like they go by

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Speaker 1: in weeks. The space time continuum is totally blurred. You

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Speaker 1: can't remember what's real what isn't. And in many ways

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Speaker 1: we've got a taste of sort of the entire Trump

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Speaker 1: experience of the Trump era, one that I do think

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Speaker 1: is exhausting. The vast but the vast majority of people

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Speaker 1: pole certainly indicate that, you know, those that are not

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Speaker 1: ideologically motivated to hate him or love him, right, they're

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Speaker 1: sort of dominating a lot of this conversation. But I

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Speaker 1: do think the vast you know, those of us in

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Speaker 1: the seventy percent here that accept the premise that you know,

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Speaker 1: you're not always going to get a president alike or

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Speaker 1: one that wants to unify the country. This has still

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Speaker 1: been an unusual period in American history. And when I

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Speaker 1: would say that we've got the full spectrum of Trump,

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Speaker 1: this week, right, we had a tragedy that happened in

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Speaker 1: the nation's capital, a Trump response that was not surprising

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Speaker 1: but still demoralizing in and depressing that an American president is

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Speaker 1: instinctively so divisive no matter what happens in any given moment.

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Speaker 1: We've got the president, We've got, we've got sort of

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Speaker 1: the media, a media firestorm getting created by something the

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Speaker 1: president says, and very little media firestorm being created by

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Speaker 1: something the president actually does pardons. And then finally, I

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Speaker 1: think we're I think Congress finally awoke from its slumber

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Speaker 1: in all things Venezuela, now that there are reports that

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Speaker 1: essentially the Secretary of Defense perhaps committed a war crime

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Speaker 1: when he said no survivors. I mean, it is against

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Speaker 1: the Geneva Conventions to continue with an order that says

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Speaker 1: there should be no survivors. And if survivors are sort

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Speaker 1: of show themselves there to be taken out. So the

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Speaker 1: fact that Congress is now going to investigate this probably

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Speaker 1: now starts the clock on Pete hag Seth, because one

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Speaker 1: thing about the Trump era in general is there's always

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Speaker 1: got to be a fall person and he will never

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Speaker 1: accept responsibility. He will, you know, sort of defend everything

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Speaker 1: that's going on until there's a moment where essentially he

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Speaker 1: needs to offer up a sacrifice to make sure they

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Speaker 1: don't come after him. Well, Pete haig Seth, you are

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Speaker 1: going to be that sacrifice. You probably believe you are

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Speaker 1: carrying out the exact orders the President of the United

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Speaker 1: States wants. But I promise you he will not have

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Speaker 1: your back. He does not care about you, He does

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Speaker 1: not care about your future, He does not care about

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Speaker 1: what happens there. And in fact, I do think pick

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Speaker 1: haik Seth is going to need a lawyer because and

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who carried out these orders. Look

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Speaker 1: at some point, the head of southcom who decided to

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Speaker 1: resign essentially in and around this period where these controversial

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Speaker 1: orders were given, is a flashing red light that there

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Speaker 1: are people in the chain of command who thought they

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Speaker 1: were getting illegal orders and just didn't weren't weren't realized

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Speaker 1: it is against the law to follow an illegal order,

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Speaker 1: as these lawmakers said, you know, they We got to

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Speaker 1: remember why these lawmakers first put this you know, first

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Speaker 1: put this video together. Yes, are they Are they trolling

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Speaker 1: a little bit, of course? Are they trying to make

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Speaker 1: a political point, Yes, But at the same time, it

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Speaker 1: was a real concern that the Secretary of Defense was

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Speaker 1: giving illegal orders and what was happening in Venezuela without

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Speaker 1: any sort of Remember, the administration has not gone to

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Speaker 1: Congress in order to get legal authority to do this.

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Speaker 1: They are using authority that previous Congresses gave to presidents

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Speaker 1: having to do with actual terrorism threats from overseas, the Taliban,

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Speaker 1: al Qaeda, things like that. This was not about a

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Speaker 1: manufactured terrorism threat in this sort of designation of narco terrorists,

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Speaker 1: which do not exist. The closest thing you could call

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Speaker 1: anybody to a narco terrorist or the essentially or the Taliban,

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Speaker 1: and that they were growing poppy in order to sell

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Speaker 1: heroin in order to fund terrorism. So if you're looking

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Speaker 1: for anybody that fits the definition, you could argue you'd

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Speaker 1: have to go to Afghanistan to get that to go

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Speaker 1: meet that definition. There is no place in and around

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Speaker 1: Venezuela that that meets that definition. And so it is

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Speaker 1: I think we now see and I have a little

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Speaker 1: bit more to say on that, but I want to

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Speaker 1: sort of start with what the tragedy that happened the

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Speaker 1: night before Thanksgiving, and that was the tragic shooting of

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Speaker 1: two members of the National Guard that the President ordered

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Speaker 1: to be deployed into Washington, d C. A deployment that

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Speaker 1: many people don't believe is necessary. Certainly where they've been

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Speaker 1: deployed hasn't been very effective. It has been clearly when

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Speaker 1: you see it, and as trust me, as people come

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Speaker 1: in to visit for the holidays, they ask us locals

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Speaker 1: about it, and they're like, how come they're you know,

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Speaker 1: I said, it's meant for you to notice. It's not

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Speaker 1: meant to be there for security. It's meant for people

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Speaker 1: to see see it. It is meant for show. It

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily meant to help. And when you look

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Speaker 1: at the what's tragic is the President's decision on the

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Speaker 1: day before Thanksgiving to be as divisive as possible. Right

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Speaker 1: he immediately and this goes back to you know my

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Speaker 1: earlier warning, why Pete Haig Seth is is, you know,

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Speaker 1: is about to be sacrificed by Donald Trump. Pete Haig

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Speaker 1: Seth doesn't know it yet, and maybe Trump himself doesn't

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Speaker 1: realize he's about to do this. But Trump never accepts

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Speaker 1: the premise that he has any fault at all, and

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Speaker 1: anything bad that happens, he's got to find somebody else,

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Speaker 1: got to find a scapeboat. So this happens, and he

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Speaker 1: immediately Look, when the shooting first happened, I think many

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Speaker 1: of us had I don't want to put thoughts in

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Speaker 1: anybody else's head. This could have been a variety. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't know the scenario. There's a reason you want

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Speaker 1: to wait for all the facts. Right when this shooting

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Speaker 1: first hit with breaking news, I'm going to guess most

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Speaker 1: of you didn't have a former aff a former Afghan

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Speaker 1: employee of the CIA. I'm guessing none of you had

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Speaker 1: that on your bingo card, no matter how much you

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Speaker 1: follow the news. There perhaps was feared that this was

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Speaker 1: something was to say misunderstanding, was there was there a

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Speaker 1: sub suspect, was to say, a crime that was taking

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Speaker 1: place and they and they helped get involved sadly, it

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Speaker 1: turned out these National guardsmen were targeted by this gentleman.

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Speaker 1: And the question is why did he target him? Did

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Speaker 1: he target him because he's angry at the United States?

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Speaker 1: Did he target him because he's angry at the US

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Speaker 1: government who he believes hasn't fulfilled their obligation. Is he

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Speaker 1: just angry because he has a total mental decline from

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Speaker 1: all of the war that he participated in. And this

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Speaker 1: is frankly something that we've seen happen to many of

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Speaker 1: our own American servicemen and women. War basically damages them

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Speaker 1: almost permanently in their head. And there's certainly plenty of

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Speaker 1: reports about their shooter, Ramanala Lakenwal that he since being

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Speaker 1: placed in Washington state, friends and family. It said he'd

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Speaker 1: been behaving erradically, going on these cross country trips and disappearing,

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Speaker 1: So it's quite possible he lost it. And of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, my thesis on many a many a mass

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Speaker 1: shooter that we end up finding out about is that

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Speaker 1: they're all mentally unstable. Something triggered them, right, Maybe it

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Speaker 1: was bad parenting, Maybe it was bad diagnoses, people not

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Speaker 1: diagnosing what was wrong. Maybe it was something that happened

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Speaker 1: that traumatized them, perhaps war, perhaps something else. But the

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Speaker 1: point is is that it does seem as if, more

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Speaker 1: times than not, this suspect is triggered into doing this,

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Speaker 1: triggered for a variety of reasons, and in this case,

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Speaker 1: there certainly is a lot of hand ringing here, right,

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Speaker 1: But immediately President Trump went into blame game mode. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, I don't know what his response would have

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Speaker 1: been had this been just just sort of typical criminal

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Speaker 1: situation in DC where a criminal overreacted and shot somebody

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Speaker 1: and then it became something bigger. Who knows what the

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Speaker 1: deployments would have looked like in this city or many others.

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Speaker 1: But instead it turned out to be a different situation

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Speaker 1: and one that not a lot of people had had

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Speaker 1: on their Bengo card, but it was. You know, presidents

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Speaker 1: have a choice to make. They can try to unite

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Speaker 1: the country or they can actively try to divide the country.

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Speaker 1: We know this president his entire political currency is division.

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Speaker 1: It is how he got the Republican nomination, it is

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Speaker 1: how he sort of took over the Republican Park, and

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Speaker 1: it's how he governs. It is always divide, divide, divide,

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Speaker 1: and on this he divided he's trying to blame Biden

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Speaker 1: for bad vetting of Afghan refugees into this country, whatever

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Speaker 1: he can do to not take any blame here at all.

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Speaker 1: He's trying to sort of blame it all, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of conflate it with all the immigration issues because

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want to take any responsibility that maybe his

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Speaker 1: folks didn't do vetting. Maybe putting the National Guard in

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Speaker 1: the nation's capital put a target on these young men

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Speaker 1: and women who didn't sign up for this type of duty.

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Speaker 1: But it's something that I think everybody needs to ask themselves.

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Speaker 1: Does the president's actions and how he treats the military,

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Speaker 1: turning them into political pawns put essentially put a political

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Speaker 1: target on their back? And I think that this is

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Speaker 1: a conversation that as adults we should be able to have.

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Speaker 1: And I think there's you know, I'm sorry his first

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Speaker 1: reaction was maybe deploying the military wearing fatigues around the

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Speaker 1: nation's capital is inviting people to target the military in

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Speaker 1: some way. I just think it's a question. It's a

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Speaker 1: serious question that needs to be asked and debated, and

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Speaker 1: we need to have serious answers, not just whimsical bullshit

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Speaker 1: that comes comes from somebody's social media feed. So there's

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Speaker 1: one issue there. The second is he had made a promise,

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Speaker 1: he had questioned whether these folks were vetted very well

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Speaker 1: or not well. What is his administration done on vetting?

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Speaker 1: It turns out they don't really vet at all, as

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Speaker 1: we know they're so they're so trying to have numbers

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Speaker 1: and just trying to kick everybody out of the country

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Speaker 1: and come up with all sorts of numbers where they

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Speaker 1: want to say, hey, look at everybody we're deporting that

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Speaker 1: there doesn't seem to be any effort to create a

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Speaker 1: vetting mechanism. We're not interested in in setting the example

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Speaker 1: for the world about political asylum on things like that.

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Speaker 1: And then of course there's the question of the blood

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Speaker 1: on our hands that every American lawmaker has on their

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Speaker 1: hands when it comes to Afghanistan. Okay, just remember Biden's

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Speaker 1: horrible withdrawal was due to having his hands tied by

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Speaker 1: Trump's terrible, a terrible deal that he caught with the

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Speaker 1: Talibon that essentially gave away every gain that was possible

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Speaker 1: that the United States attempted to make and Afghanistan. Trump

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Speaker 1: gave it all away, handing Biden the job of executing

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Speaker 1: a withdrawal that, yes, could Biden have superseded It could, No,

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Speaker 1: eadn't politically want. It would extend the time of the

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Speaker 1: US military occupation in Afghanistan. So I understand the political

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Speaker 1: motives he had to go ahead and abide by these deadlines.

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Speaker 1: Does not mean he should be let off the hook

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Speaker 1: for the terrible and horrendous mismanagement that the State Department,

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Speaker 1: the military, and the White House collectively made there. Now

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of finger pointing to this day about it,

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Speaker 1: but let's not forget the terrible decision that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: made in negotiating with the Taliban and doing what he

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Speaker 1: did to put his successor in the position that he

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Speaker 1: was in. The point is is that the disaster that

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Speaker 1: is Afghanistan, that is Afghan refugees who were especially those

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Speaker 1: who were vital to the US operation in Afghanistan, like

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Speaker 1: this young man, Ramanala lakanawal Okay. He worked for the

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Speaker 1: United States military, worked for the government, worked for intelligence services.

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Speaker 1: In many ways, he's the very definition of somebody that

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Speaker 1: deserved essentially special status for getting into this country because

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Speaker 1: guess what, they were going to be targeted by the

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Speaker 1: Taliban because they were working against the Taliban. He had

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Speaker 1: no chance to survive in Afghanistan. In theory, he was

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Speaker 1: supposed to have a better chance here. So the point

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Speaker 1: is is that this is a tragic situation based on

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Speaker 1: a bad policy from three to four presidents. We can

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Speaker 1: basically every president's of the twenty first century is fucked up. Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: screwed up the entire situation. And so the point is

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Speaker 1: there's collective blood on the hands of Republicans and Democrats alike.

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Speaker 1: There's collective blood on all of us as Americans, since

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Speaker 1: there are representatives. So the point is when a tragedy

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Speaker 1: like this happens, there should be a little bit of

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Speaker 1: shared experience with this, and it's a moment, especially when

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Speaker 1: we're all gathered together as it is. Wouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: hard to use this as a unifying moment, but again

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Speaker 1: it is not. The president has no ability to do this,

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Speaker 1: and instead he went off on some ridiculous rant something

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Speaker 1: about the auto pen and Joe Biden, and then he

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Speaker 1: claimed on social media that he has nullified every executive

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Speaker 1: order Joe Biden has done. You know, there is no

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Speaker 1: one executive order he could sign that would do that

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Speaker 1: if he wants to nullify every executive order that that

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Speaker 1: Biden signed, either by himself or via autopan, He's got

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Speaker 1: to sign individual executive orders that essentially pull them back

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Speaker 1: in one form or another. And I don't think he

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Speaker 1: can do anything on the pardons if he wants to

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Speaker 1: try to undo the pardons. But the point is what

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Speaker 1: was really shocking were how many people covered this as fact.

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Speaker 1: And this gets that to he sat there trying to

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Speaker 1: weaponize a tragedy for political gain, trying to create that hey,

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Speaker 1: this was Democrats soft on border policies that led to

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Speaker 1: this situation, when actually, now that we know more of

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Speaker 1: the situation, it has nothing to do with that, and

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Speaker 1: it has everything to do with the horrendous way that

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Speaker 1: all of the pre presidents, including Donald Trump, but especially

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, since he negotiated the surrender of it whatever

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Speaker 1: America was trying to do in Afghanistan, he basically just

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Speaker 1: decided to completely walk away and just left the left

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Speaker 1: the mess for his successor and Joe Biden, who decided

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Speaker 1: to just follow the same bad path. So I have

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Speaker 1: no empathy for Joe Biden's decision making other than more

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Speaker 1: proof he was not a very good president, but he

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Speaker 1: was following a situation that was created by a worst president,

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Speaker 1: in this case in Donald Trump. So we're in this

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Speaker 1: we're in a moment where he could have brought the

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Speaker 1: country together and he chose not to do it. And

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Speaker 1: what was, Like I said, what was really disconcerting was

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Speaker 1: how focused it seemed much of the world was on

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Speaker 1: this thing we did with the pardons. And I saw

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Speaker 1: a few people, probably you know, younger reporters who were

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Speaker 1: being asked to work over the holiday. Right, This is

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Speaker 1: if the with some serious attempt. There were headlines that

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Speaker 1: were breaking news alerts, right, and then you found out

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Speaker 1: what he actually did, you know? And this this gets

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Speaker 1: back to sort of one of the larger reminders with

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Stop paying attention to what he says and

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Speaker 1: continue to only pay attention to what he does. He

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Speaker 1: says a lot of shit. Most of it isn't true,

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Speaker 1: most of it isn't going to happen. Most of it

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Speaker 1: is bullshit, right, And I understand, you know, there's always

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Speaker 1: this oh take them literally whatever it is. The fact

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Speaker 1: is what he says versus what he does. Okay, if

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Speaker 1: you're going to get outraged, get outrage and what he does,

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Speaker 1: not what he claims he's going to do, because most

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Speaker 1: of the time he doesn't do what he claims he's

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Speaker 1: going to do. All right, But while we are talking

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Speaker 1: about what he says he'll do in nullifying all of

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden's auto pen executive orders, he was doing something

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Speaker 1: far more consequential, far more damaging to the United States

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Speaker 1: long term folks. He used his most absolute power of

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Speaker 1: his presidency, the pardon, and he, once again, it appears,

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Speaker 1: did another pay for play, especially because we now know

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Speaker 1: who is involved in helping facilitate the pardon and getting

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Speaker 1: the pardon for the presidency. This episode of the Chuck

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Speaker 1: excellent bread. So let me talk about it. It's a

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Speaker 1: full pardon for a gentleman by the name of Juan

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Speaker 1: Orlando Hernandez. He's the former president of Honduras. He was

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Speaker 1: convicted in a US federal court just last year for

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Speaker 1: trafficking hundreds of tons of cocaines in the United States

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Speaker 1: since of forty five years. Now, let's just remember, one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that Donald Trump is threatening war on

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Speaker 1: Venezuela is because he says Moduro is essentially the head

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Speaker 1: of the one of the largest drug cartels in the

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Speaker 1: world that is killing Americans, intentionally killing Americans via the

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Speaker 1: drug trade. So what does he do. He just released

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Speaker 1: somebody who we in the United States just convicted of

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Speaker 1: doing just what he claims the head of Venezuela is doing.

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Speaker 1: But now this guy has been cleared, had his record

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Speaker 1: white clean, and he's being released back into Central American politics.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Trump is using the pardon of Wan Orlando

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Speaker 1: Hernandez to essentially endorse the political party that is on

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Speaker 1: the ballot right now that Hernandez belongs to, to essentially

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Speaker 1: get that group of politicians back in power. And he

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Speaker 1: said if the election doesn't go the way he wants

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Speaker 1: it to go. He's going to somehow punish Honduras over this,

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Speaker 1: So he's threatening the voters of Hoduras. This is not

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Speaker 1: America First. By the way, America First doesn't care what

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Speaker 1: people do. People are supposedly can do whatever the hell

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Speaker 1: they want outside of America's borders. Right, we are not

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Speaker 1: going to involve ourselves in their politics. Obviously, it is

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Speaker 1: so crystal clear. Donald Trump is not a he's not

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Speaker 1: an America First. He's a Trump firster. Whoever pays him

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Speaker 1: the most is going to get. And we now know

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Speaker 1: Roger Stone is basically the pardon you know, the pardon

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Speaker 1: whisper to a lot of these Latin American and international crooks,

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Speaker 1: and they use Roger Stone himself a pardon crook. And

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Speaker 1: Stone bragged about visiting the president about two weeks ago

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Speaker 1: on his social media feed, dressed in the absurd zoot

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Speaker 1: suit that he loves to wear. Claim he's like really

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Speaker 1: stylistic person, He's stylistic for the nineteen forties. Congratulations, he

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Speaker 1: would make a great Dick Tracy villain. I probably gave

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Speaker 1: him a compliment by saying that. But the guys, you know,

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Speaker 1: the guys tells a great story spins a great yarn.

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Speaker 1: But he's a crook and he has destroyed political the

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Speaker 1: political consulting world by making it as crooked as it is.

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Speaker 1: He and Paul Manifort paved the way to essentially the

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Speaker 1: corrupt nature that lobbying is today. The godfathers of this

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Speaker 1: are Roger Stone and Paul Manafort. And of course it's

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Speaker 1: Roger Stone who's totally connected and was personally urging Trump

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Speaker 1: to pardon this guy visiting with him two weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: so we know this was done. So this wasn't a

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Speaker 1: pardon for diplomatic reasons or for some geopolitical reasons that

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Speaker 1: we thought would help the security of the United States.

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Speaker 1: There was no Department of Justice review for this pardon.

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Speaker 1: It just was a direct result of lobbying from one

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Speaker 1: of Trump's closest, most controversial confidants, a man himself who

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00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: have received clemency from Trump, a man who now's appear

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Speaker 1: appears to be essentially one of the central nodes in

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Speaker 1: this pay for pay pardon scheme that it should be

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily controversial, and yet nobody raises a peep about it.

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Speaker 1: The lack of outrage over essentially what is almost a

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Speaker 1: weekly thing. Now Trump has normalized, normalized the pardoning of

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Speaker 1: convicted felons, and it's always the same. It's either convicted

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Speaker 1: of some sort of financial scheme, ripping off governments or

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Speaker 1: ripping off people. Something he has been accused of doing

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Speaker 1: quite a bit as a developer over the years, and

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Speaker 1: you know, an unsuccessful casino owner over the years. Anybody

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Speaker 1: that's ever been accused of something, he's been accused of,

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Speaker 1: he pardons. And you know, it is now an obvious pattern.

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Speaker 1: And of course anybody who will pay the price is

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Speaker 1: obviously willing to be pardoned. It is happening here in

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Speaker 1: plain sight. Two weeks ago, right I went, I sort

431
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: of was trying to surface up some urgency about his

432
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: abuse of the pardon. How when he pardoned the form

433
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: the head of finance one of those crypto schemes that

434
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: are out there, And how did this guy get on

435
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: the attention of Trump. Well when he went into business

436
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: with Trump's kids in the crypto world, so it became

437
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: sort of a part of the family business to get

438
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: this done. It's it's it's one of those where you

439
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: don't quite understand why there's you know, to quote Bob Dolan,

440
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six when he was running against Bill Click

441
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: and an upset about the lack of you know, there

442
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: were all sorts of crazy schemes that Bill Clinton's was

443
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: using to raise money, using the White House as a

444
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: vehicle to this. By the way, the things that Bob

445
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: Gore would be upset about today wouldn't even make Donald

446
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: Trump blush. Right. Donald Trump essentially has done whatever the

447
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: Clintons did and said I'm going to do it on steroids,

448
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: and he's kind of done that. By the way, he

449
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: made a second commutation this week, and again it's one

450
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: that's all about the Benjamins. Here a guy named David Genteel,

451
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: a private equity executive who was convicted in a one

452
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: point six billion dollar fraud. Schreen was sentenced to seven years.

453
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: He got a sentence commuted after just two weeks. So

454
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 1: while we don't know quite how much money mister Genteel

455
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: paid Trump associates in order to get his pardon, I

456
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: promise you the pardon is not free. None of these

457
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: pardons that Donald Trump makes are free. But again, where

458
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: you get so many folks in sort of the political

459
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: media get obsessed over the stuff he says, and the

460
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: lack of focused or interest in the stuff he does,

461
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: whether it is an illegal, unconstitutional war that he's essentially

462
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: trying to start in Venezuela. By the way, he's got

463
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: political risk here if he doesn't follow through on that.

464
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: I'll talk about that in a minute. And then it's

465
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: literally almost weekly now he pardons somebody that is that

466
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: makes the Bill Clinton, Mark Rich pardons seem just like

467
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: another presidential pardon that eh kind of smells. But hey,

468
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: they all do it. The fact is they don't all

469
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: do it. They've all done one or two really bad

470
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: pardons that you're really uncomfortable with, and you're like, God,

471
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: damn it, did you really just do this so Roger

472
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: Stone could make a couple of bucks, or did you

473
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: really just do this because Tony Rodham needed to make

474
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: a couple of bucks, because that is what it felt

475
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: like was happening with the Clintons, and it felt that,

476
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: you know, when Bush sort of commuted the sentence of

477
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: Scuber to Libby, you know, yes, he didn't pardon him,

478
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: but he was You see this, there are these little

479
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: favors that are done, and there's and and you know,

480
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: there's honor among thieves, and I think we as a public,

481
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: we're kind of grossed out by it that it happens

482
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: at all, but we're weirdly forgiving of a couple. We

483
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: sort of assume, oh, that's the price of business. But literally,

484
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: Donald Trump just peas in our face. He is so

485
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: he doesn't even pretend to do anything morally or ethically correct,

486
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: and instead he does these things that are so beyond

487
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: the pale. But he does it consistently, consistently and regularly,

488
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: and he does it on a schedule that we just

489
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: barely even shrug a shoulder. And so it's it's one

490
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: of these moments where you know, at some point we've

491
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: talked about this, and I have a terrific interview coming

492
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: up with Sarah Isker, who who is the legal the

493
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: legal expert over at The Dispatch, which is one of

494
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: my favorite news organizations. She's also a knee deep Bay

495
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: Scotus blog recently. So if you want to understand what's

496
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: happening at the Supreme Court, try to read the tea

497
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: leaves of what Supreme Court justices are thinking. You're going

498
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: to want to talk to Sarah Esker, and you'll see

499
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: in our conversation there's a couple of things we don't finish,

500
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna end up getting together again

501
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: because there's I think there's there's two issues that this

502
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: week alone has triggered as a reminder. First of all,

503
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: we have a corrupt Justice Department, right, we do not

504
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: have a Justice department that you can feel good, is

505
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: honest and fair because we've already seen the way the

506
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: way payin BONDI has allowed the Justice Department to be

507
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: run it's whatever Donald Trump wants. So now there's real

508
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: questions about the rule of law. Judges are throwing cases

509
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: out because they're really not. It appears that they're not

510
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: following even basic you know, the basic protocols that they're

511
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: supposed to make. One. Two, the pardon power is so

512
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: corrupt that it's clear we need a constitutional amendment to

513
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: amend this. To this day, you've heard me ask this

514
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: question a few times, which is is, how the hell

515
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: did you know the founding fathers. One of the head

516
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: scratchers to me is the fact that they allowed a

517
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: pardon power to be given to a president. Because we

518
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: were supposedly revolting against a monarchy, so why give any

519
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: sort of monarchical powers to the president. Right, everything about

520
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: the Founding fathers was to try to create a weak executive.

521
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: They didn't want a non existent executive, but they wanted

522
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: a fairly weak executive with the power of the law

523
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: of actually resting inside of the power to make laws,

524
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: not with the executive branch, but with the legislative branch.

525
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: The power to decide if the laws are constitutional, not

526
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: to the judiciary, and essentially all the executives supposed to

527
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: do is execute the laws. But they gave him this

528
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: pardon power and the amount of abuse. Now I know

529
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: the founders had a lot more faith in the legislative

530
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: branch and essentially protecting the constitution and protecting the country

531
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: from a runaway executive. That is not the situation we

532
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: have now. Right, We do not have a Speaker of

533
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: the House. We have a spino, a speaker in name only.

534
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: As you know Mike Johnson essentially admitted it the other day,

535
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: is that he really isn't a speaker of any you know,

536
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: he has at the title, but he doesn't do the

537
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: job of running the legislative branch. He does whatever Donald

538
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: Trump asked him to do, which really has harmed the

539
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: Constitution and he's put his own members. This is why

540
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: you're going to see this retirement. We got another retirement

541
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: over the weekend. I promise you. I'm going to guess

542
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: that we average two to four retirements every day every

543
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: week excuse me, between now and the end of the year. Well,

544
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: fact check me on this. By the end of the year,

545
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: but I'm I'm going to guess that we will have

546
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: at least ten more retirements before the end of this calendar,

547
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: which would put us on an average of two to

548
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: three per week for the rest of the year. So

549
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: I think that's going to happen. But the uninterest in

550
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: Congress and trying to reign in this executive is shocking

551
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: to me. We are finally going to get and I

552
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: think it took you. You know, last week I shared

553
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: with you how I had an interview with Mike Turner,

554
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: republic former. He's a current member of congre Republican member

555
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: of Congress, but the former chair of the House Intel Committee.

556
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: And you could just if you just watched the conversation

557
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: he and I had over Venezuela and whether these orders

558
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: were legal or not, and how concerned he was about

559
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: the legality of what was happening here. He was basically saying,

560
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: without saying directly, that yes, this thing is totally illegal,

561
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: and we are totally and Congress is totally out of

562
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: the loop. So this report about the shoot to kill

563
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: order no survivors are allowed by Hegseth, which appears to

564
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: be a violation of the Geneva Conventions, especially when there's

565
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: been no declaration of war whatsoever on any of these folks.

566
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: Congress is finally awoke from its lumber, and we'll see.

567
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: I have some faith in the Senate Armed Services Committee

568
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: to do something serious because I think Roger Wicker, the

569
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 1: Republican chairman, and Jack Reid, the ranking member, they seem

570
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: to put the country before party, both of them whenever

571
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: they've worked together a long time. I think that they're

572
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: going to do a really serious inquiry. I don't know

573
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: about the House, as we know the House Republicans will see.

574
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: I think it depends on who you get. I do

575
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: think you have some House Republicans that realize that Donald

576
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: Trump treats them like sacrificial lambs and that they're nothing

577
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: but pawns. And I think that that is I do

578
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: think he is accumulating more and more critics from his

579
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: own party for the way he's behaving. As I said,

580
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: it's not been very America first. It's always Trump first,

581
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: but not America first. That's making some people peel away

582
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: getting involved in other people's in more foreign entanglements. That

583
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: seems to be an issue. But let me introduce one

584
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: more political peril that Trump has created for himself with Venezuela.

585
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 1: Now that he's got Congress's attention with what they're doing,

586
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,479
Speaker 1: in theory, it might hamstring him more ironically, what they've

587
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: been doing has been raising the hopes of the Venezuelan

588
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: and Cuban communities in South Florida that Trump's going to,

589
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: you know, go and get Maduro if he doesn't get Madurea.

590
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: And this is where I think, unfortunately, he's going to

591
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: do something that's likely illegal here, and he's going to

592
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: do He's going to make He's going to give an

593
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: order that we're going to be debating for years about

594
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: whether this was legal or not. And what happens here

595
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 1: with Maduro. Let's see how it's done. But he's more

596
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: likely to try something than actually get congressional approval because politically,

597
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: if he doesn't follow through in his threat to get

598
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: rid of Maduro. This will be the bay of pigs

599
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: for Venezuelan's Venezuelan Americans. You know, essentially the Cuban Americans

600
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: turned on the Democratic Party because they believe Kennedy didn't

601
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: help out those Cuban exiles who were trying to overthrow

602
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: Castro and he sort of left them defend for themselves

603
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: and he didn't follow through, and it is the initial split,

604
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: like why are Cubans Republicans? It's because of that moment,

605
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: no other reason. Well, if Trump never gets Maduro, that's

606
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: the situation he's setting himself up, and it could trickle

607
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: into the Cuban community as well. So because of that fear,

608
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 1: and I know that, and I would suspect that Marco

609
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: Rubio color Cementez, many of the long time Cuban American

610
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: politicians down in South Florida who understand this issue, understand

611
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: what South Florida exiles may expect from President Trump here

612
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: are going to end up pushing him and pushing him

613
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: and pushing him to do something that, again I think

614
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: is going to have enormous constitutional consequences and long term

615
00:36:54,280 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: impact on sort of on the role of converse and

616
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: what it plays in war making and potentially on this

617
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: fragile coalition that is MAGA that he put together. Because

618
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: did any of them, these are all folks that all

619
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: are supposedly against the Iraq war, did any of them

620
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: vote for this? And I think you could see more

621
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: fracturing even as he remember he lives in South Florida,

622
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: so he's become an unofficial member of the Cuban in

623
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: Venezuelan exile communities down there. He constantly gets that pr

624
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: in his ear, so we know where he's going to

625
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: end up siding. What he does not fully appreciate is

626
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: what that's going to do the rest of his coalition

627
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 1: outside of South Florida. All right, with that, let's sneak

628
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: at a break and when we come back, Sarah Eskert

629
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,439
Speaker 1: And of course, after that conversation, which I think you'll enjoy,

630
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: it's a tremendous one. After that conversation, I have by

631
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: todcast time Machine, I got a fun one. This is

632
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 1: a fascinating one. I actually take three moments in history

633
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: and combine them into one one time machine moment. And

634
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: of course I have a few things to say about

635
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: the status of college football, in particular the leadership or

636
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: shall I say the lack of leadership at the ACCI

637
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: the first EQUIP ranking. There's a reason results matter more

638
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: than promises, just like there's a reason Morgan and Morgan

639
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: is America's largest injury law firm. For the last thirty

640
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: five years, they've recovered twenty five billion dollars for more

641
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: than half a million clients. It includes cases where insurance

642
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: companies offered next to nothing, just hoping to get away

643
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: with paying as little as possible. Morgan and Morgan fought

644
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: back ended up winning millions. In fact, in Pennsylvania, one

645
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Speaker 1: client was awarded twenty six million dollars, which was a

646
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: staggering forty times the amount that the insurance company originally offered.

647
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: That original offer six hundred and fifty thousand dollars twenty

648
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: six million, six hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So with

649
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: more than one thousand lawyers across the country, they know

650
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: how to deliver for everyday people. If you're injured, you

651
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: need a lawyer, You need somebody to get your back.

652
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: Check out for the people dot com, Slash podcast or

653
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: Dow Pound Law Pound five two nine law on your

654
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: cell phone. And remember all law firms are not the same.

655
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: So check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free

656
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: unless they win. So joining me now to talk a

657
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: little bit of uh, what's going on at the Department

658
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: of Justice, what Supreme Court ruling should we be over

659
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: the next few weeks and a few months. And it's

660
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: somebody that I always learn a lot from when I

661
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: either hear her or read her. It is Sarah Isker

662
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: of The Dispatch. She does a legal podcast, a legal newsletter.

663
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: At this point, how involved are you with the SCOTUSblog.

664
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 2: By the way, I am the editor of Scotus Blog.

665
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: We have a lot of new exciting changes coming out.

666
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: I also have a new book coming out called The

667
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 2: Last Branch Standing, which will be sort of a fun

668
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: deep dive into the Supreme Court and explainer. So yeah,

669
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 2: we're all I think that's cute.

670
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: That you think. I think that's cute you think the

671
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: Judiciary branch is standing. I have to accept that premise.

672
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: You have to accept that premise. No, I mean, the

673
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: title comes from the idea that it's the last branch

674
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: that the founders would recognize that Congress has sort of

675
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: disappeared off.

676
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: Of the you know, or what the founders thought it

677
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: would be or could be or should be.

678
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: No, And that the presidency, that the sort of enlarged

679
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 2: tyrannical presidency that they were concerned about, actually has come

680
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: to fruition, but like to an even larger extent than

681
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: they could have imagined because of the administrative state and

682
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 2: all of these agencies, and the branch that they would

683
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: recognize for all of its faults and foibles would be

684
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court. That that looks about right in its

685
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 2: current role in American government.

686
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: In isolation, is that good? But in when you in

687
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: combination with the strengthening and then weakening of the other

688
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: two branches, is that bad.

689
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 2: So I am very hopeful about this Supreme Court term

690
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: because I think the Supreme Court has an unusual opportunity

691
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: to rebalance the other two branches. When you think about

692
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: the two biggest cases from this term, it's the Tariff

693
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 2: case and the Slaughter case about independent agencies.

694
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: Right, And both are about executive overreach or executive authority

695
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: depending on your point of view, right.

696
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: And so I think that if you sort of combine

697
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 2: those cases together, what you could have from the Supreme

698
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: Court are two rulings saying in the Tariff case, for instance, Congress,

699
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: do your job. The President does not have the power

700
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: to go find old, vague statutes and read in, you know,

701
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: sort of new turbocharged powers like we got, for instance,

702
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 2: even during the Biden administration, eviction moratory and vaccine mandate,

703
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 2: student loan debt forgiveness, all things that Congress can do well.

704
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court said, is the president can't sort of

705
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: conjure those powers from old statutes. We expect Congress to

706
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: actually say that clearly and explicitly. Same with the tariff

707
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: power potentially, and on the flip side, with the slaughter

708
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: case of independent agencies, they could say, look, we're going

709
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: to give the president. Sorry, look, we're going to limit

710
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,479
Speaker 2: the president to the powers that have been explicitly given

711
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 2: to it from Congress. But also the president is in

712
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: charge of the executive branch. All of those powers come

713
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: directly from him. So we're going to give the president

714
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 2: more power over the people who execute the laws, but

715
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: give those people a lot less power and make Congress,

716
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: you know, bigger and more accountable to people.

717
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: So he may be able to fire more executive branch employees.

718
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: So the authority over the FED, or the authority over

719
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: the anaw National Labor Relations Board, but what those entities

720
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: can do as regulators will be limited to literally what

721
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: the text of the bill that Congress past said exactly.

722
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 2: So you know, if you think of our sort of

723
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: constitutional car and Chief Justice Roberts driving in the front seat,

724
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: he is, you know, looking back and saying, you know, Congress,

725
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 2: quit breathing on the president. Mister President, quit poking Congress,

726
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: or I'm going to turn this constitution right around, like

727
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: really separate the branches. And you know, if you have

728
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: to put a pillow in between them, so be it.

729
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: But they you know, Congress is legislating, the executive is executing,

730
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: and right now we have this muddle where the president

731
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: has been legislating a little bit too, executing a little bit.

732
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: That's why you have in these independent agencies they are prosecutor, judge,

733
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: fact finder, all of those things. And then you have

734
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: Congress meddling saying, you know, you can't remove all of

735
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: these different people. So that if you, as a voter,

736
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 2: are thinking this is the most important election of my

737
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: lifetime to vote for president, you think the president actually

738
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: has control over large swaths of the economy that in

739
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: reality he doesn't at all. Because Congress has put those

740
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 2: limitations on his ability to put people in who could

741
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 2: actually be accountable.

742
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: So I share your optimism that this Supreme Court is

743
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 1: likely to rule in both of those directions. It's if

744
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 1: you listen to the arguments, it is where you can

745
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: see I think a six y three or even seven

746
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: to two majority on the terriff authority maybe you know,

747
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: maybe probably not eighty one. It does feel like there

748
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: are two people there that are pretty loyal to the

749
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: president or pretty empathetic to the President's point of view.

750
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 1: But and then on the probably somewhere lower of five

751
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: four sixty three on the other one. But let's just contemplate,

752
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: what if you and I are wrong right, and what

753
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: if this court does give it? How dire do you

754
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: believe that is to the future of the equilibrium between

755
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: the three branches.

756
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 2: I think the biggest constitutional threat we face right now

757
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: will surprise a lot of people because I actually think

758
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 2: it is the evaporation of Congress.

759
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: I completely agree. Yeah, the weakening of Congress is weakened

760
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 1: the democracy absolutely.

761
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: And it's driving all of the other problems that I

762
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: think people seem more in front of their faces. But

763
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: the you know, presidency on steroids is driven by the

764
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: weakening of Congress because problems pile up and voters are like,

765
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: why isn't anyone doing me anything about this? And the

766
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 2: President's like, oh, I'll try something. He gets the press release,

767
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: the Rose Garden address. All the activists are like, Yay,

768
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: the president helped our side without any compromise, without any

769
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 2: of the stability of legislation, and then either a court

770
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: strikes it down a couple years later, not saying that

771
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: it can't be done, just saying that Congress has to

772
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: do it, that a president acting alone can't do it,

773
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: or four years later a new president comes in and

774
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: it's gone on day one. And what's shocking to me

775
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 2: is that you have this activist class that I think

776
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: are vital to our democracy, totally fine with that, that

777
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 2: they still cheer on when a president does a thing

778
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: that they like, without any regard to the fact that

779
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: that won't solve the problem long term because it's going

780
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 2: to be gone.

781
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 1: Sir. That's such an excellent point as how ignorant. Either

782
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 1: they're ignorant, naive, or they've just given up on congressional authority.

783
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: But if you're an activist and you care about these things.

784
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: The presidency is the least important aspect to your goal.

785
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: It is if you can't get legislation paths to support

786
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: your what you want to get done, a president, all

787
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: they can do is maybe use a tournique, right, maybe

788
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: there's a band aid. You know, you can sort of,

789
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: you know, keep an open wound from bleeding. But that's

790
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 1: about it. You know you're not going to be able

791
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: to actually have surgery be healed any of those things.

792
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 1: And yet activity climate change continue to want these essentially

793
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: photo ops with presidents rather than solutions out of Congress.

794
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: You think about climate change, the Obama administration has their

795
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 2: Clean Power Plan that they do again alone, based on

796
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: a vague statute from Congress. The Trump administration comes in,

797
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: gets rid of it. The Biden administration comes in, doesn't

798
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: just reinstitute the Obama one, they have their own. Then

799
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: the Trump administration comes in and gets rid of it.

800
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 2: This whole time, it's sitting bogged down in the courts

801
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 2: as well. And if you wanted to actually address climate change,

802
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: you cannot do it in four year increments, and you

803
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: cannot do it with changing every four year policies. You

804
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 2: have to have congressional legislation, and yes, that means you

805
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 2: will not get everything you want. That's what I think

806
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 2: created this problem in the first place, is that progressive era,

807
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: and I don't mean progressive right, the Teddy Roosevelt Wilson era.

808
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: This idea that Congress was so slow and compromising, and

809
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: these dumb dums getting elected to the health of representatives.

810
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: They don't know anything, and there are these answers and

811
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 2: truths if only we had experts involved to do them.

812
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 2: And there's a fundamental failure in that that I think

813
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 2: we've learned over the last hundred years, which is trade offs.

814
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 2: And that's what you need self representative democracy to do,

815
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 2: is to decide those trade offs.

816
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: I get so tired of hearing an activist or do gooder.

817
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes they're do gooders and sometimes they you know,

818
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: they're out for themselves, but either way they're so dismissive

819
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: of Congress or the average member of Congress, right, and

820
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: you're just sitting there going, yeah, this is by design,

821
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 1: jack ass, Okay, Like the idea is, yes, the wisdom

822
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: of the crowd of Congress actually is helpful. Now, look,

823
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: Congress is broken. It is not very representative of the

824
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 1: people that elect them, because frankly, I think, you know,

825
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 1: I'll get on one of my hobby horses. I think

826
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: congress is too small. I think it needs to be

827
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: twice the size. I think congressional districts are way too big. Right,

828
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: the average congressional district is now the size of a

829
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: major city. And there is never there isn't that one.

830
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: The city of Austin is not a single community of interest,

831
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: and yet we are. And that's and they're the fifteenth

832
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: largest city in America, which is about eight hundred thousand people,

833
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: which is about the size of a congressional district if

834
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: you cut it in half, if you went to and

835
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: I think we need a constitutional amendment to sort of

836
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: guarantee a maximum size of a congressional district. I think

837
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: it's point zero zero zero one percent of the population.

838
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: That's what one for four hundred we give you right now.

839
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: And one p four hundred would you know that's the

840
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: size of Arlington, Texas well. Guess what Arlington, a suburb

841
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 1: of Dallas and Fort Worth, strikes me as a community

842
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: of interests. And that is ultimately what the goal was

843
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 1: in creating these congressional districts is you create communities of interest.

844
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 1: Sometimes those are by identities, sometimes they are by where

845
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 1: you live. But you know the definition of community of interest.

846
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: Obviously as a wide you know, you can sort of

847
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: drive a truck through it. But these districts are too big,

848
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: so then you only need a faction in order to

849
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: in order to represent them, which is why it feels

850
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: like Congress itself isn't very representative.

851
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 2: A thousand times yes, and I know you know this,

852
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 2: but this actually was one of the first amendments that

853
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 2: was proposed for the Bill of Rights and two. There

854
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 2: were twelve amendments proposed. Ten of them obviously get ratified.

855
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: One gets ratified later, so actually it's the only one

856
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: that didn't make it in the end, which is sort

857
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 2: of sad because I think you're exactly right. I think

858
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 2: there's a few things broken with Congress. One, as you say,

859
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 2: they're too big. They cannot actually be representative government because

860
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: you can't meet with your constituents. You can't even represent

861
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: your constituents because they're not a community.

862
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: It's interesting said not near it. When you're near a million,

863
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: you just can't.

864
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 2: I would probably even increase the size more than two times.

865
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 2: I think we're probably nearing the three times as large size.

866
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 2: I think we're in like a twelve hundred type vicinity

867
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 2: at this point. And yes, that would change all sorts

868
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 2: of other things about how Congress meets and votes. But

869
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 2: at this point, again you talk about trade offs, I

870
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 2: think we are well aware of what the trade offs are,

871
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 2: and I think the current tradeoff is poor that people

872
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: are not actually represented. There's a few other things though,

873
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 2: that have caused this one, as I mentioned, was the

874
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 2: administrative state, this idea that experts are the answer, and

875
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 2: that has let Congress off the hook. They can just say,

876
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: like I want the EPA to make clean water law,

877
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 2: but they don't actually have to make any of those

878
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: tough decisions themselves. That would be that they could be

879
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: held politically accountable for. And so the bureaucrat I'm not

880
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: using that termin a pejorative. What I mean by that

881
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 2: is a protected person inside of bureaucracy is making decisions

882
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 2: over what it means to have clean water, and in

883
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: the meantime, a member of Congress, then you know, you

884
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 2: can't primary them on that they did this trade off poorly,

885
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: that they you know, made it too difficult to build

886
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,760
Speaker 2: new housing for instance, which is a problem we definitely

887
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: have right now. The third issue I think is campaign

888
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: finance reform. I think part of what we saw. I

889
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: supported BIKRA in two thousand and two, the bipartisan campaign

890
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 2: reformat that was called McCain Wengeld. I thought that sounded

891
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 2: like a great idea, but I didn't think through the

892
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 2: trade offs, Chuck, which were they large destroyed the.

893
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: Two parties, destroys, It destroyed the parties.

894
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: Large dollar donors weren't representative. But you know who's even

895
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 2: less representative, wall dollar donors. We destroyed the two political parties.

896
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 2: We've replaced political parties that could at least have carrots

897
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: and sticks for their members. They could have policy platforms,

898
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: they would tend towards moderation, to represent the most media

899
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 2: and voter because they had an interest to get to

900
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: fifty one percent. We replaced that with small dollar donors.

901
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: Only about two percent of Americans will ever give a

902
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 2: buck to any member of anything to run for office.

903
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: They tend to respond to anger and outrage and incendiary stuff,

904
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: and more importantly, they tend to respond to like stuff

905
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 2: they see clips of on social media, and so members

906
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 2: of Congress are no longer going to like town halls

907
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: and rubber chicken dinners. They're just all day long posting

908
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 2: shit on their reels and watching the money come in.

909
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 2: And the last thing that I know you also care

910
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 2: about is leadership changes in Congress during Gingrich and Pelosi,

911
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: they really changed. I mean back in the eighties, it

912
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 2: would be like a household name who the Chairman of

913
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 2: Ways and Means was, because that was a really powerful job.

914
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: Look, we've got Bob Hackwood and Dan Rostenkowski wanted to

915
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: do tax reform, and so did the Reagan White House.

916
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: The Reagan white House didn't work with Senate Majority Leader

917
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: Bob byird and and Speaker Folly at the time, I

918
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 1: believe her Speaker right or back then it might have

919
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 1: been Speaker O'Neil. Even when they did eighty six tax reform.

920
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: You know, Packwood and Rossty called the shots, right they

921
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: were the Packwood was the big Senate finance. This was

922
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: a Republican So this would have been Dole's Senate Republican

923
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: leadership period. But they got to call the shot and

924
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't. In fact, remember there was a small period

925
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: during Obama and Obama and Pelosis basically broke it and read.

926
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: But remember when Grassley and Bacchus actually tried to sort

927
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:40,800
Speaker 1: of flex the muscles of the Senate Finance Committee during Healthcare,

928
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: and Bacchus and Grassley looked like that they were going

929
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: to sort of be a bulwark in trying to hey,

930
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: let's not let this get partisanized. Let's let's make sure

931
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: that you know, we run this as the Senate fire

932
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: And they both had their own legacies in mind and

933
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: trying to see if they could s healthcare, and then

934
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 1: everything became partisan right the town halls happened. Grassley backs

935
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: off because he's afraid of the politics of it. He

936
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 1: was right about that the politics are going to be

937
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: bad for him, so he got out of the way

938
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: of that freight train which would have come for him.

939
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: He wouldn't have won a primary, he'd have gone. I mean,

940
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 1: if he had been the Republican that signed off on Obamacare,

941
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: you and I both know it. You know, he'd have

942
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: been out of office for the last fifteen years. So he

943
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: wasn't wrong about understanding that. But that was when that

944
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: was the last time any committee chair and ranking member

945
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 1: ever flexed muscle, And you haven't seen it since and.

946
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: So now you have like three people in the House

947
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 2: who actually can move legislation. I mean, if you want to, I.

948
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 1: Think it's two. Yeah, I think it's really too I

949
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: just think there's four. I think there are four people

950
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: that run Congress. It's the two leaders of each of

951
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 1: each chamber. And that's it. Like what committee chair punches

952
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: above their weight anymore? Can you name one?

953
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: And so that leaves us with four hundred and thirty

954
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 2: three backbenchers.

955
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: Five hundred and thirty one backbenchures. I would argue, I

956
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: think the Senate, if you're not in leadership, what are

957
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 1: you doing other than raising money on social media?

958
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I would basically say, you're you're like

959
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: puppies chewing the furniture, like we haven't given them a job,

960
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: and these are working dogs. And you see the result

961
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 2: of that isn't just that it changes the behavior of

962
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 2: those in Congress. It changes who is in Congress. And

963
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 2: the people who actually were interested in legislating have retired

964
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,760
Speaker 2: or left, and the people who.

965
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 1: You know, I'm Michael Bennett's ready for governor. Yeah, you

966
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: know exactly, because the Senate doesn't work. And I've been

967
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: I've for I've had a relationship with him for a

968
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: long time because I've worked with this brother very closely

969
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 1: at the Atlantic back in the day, and so I

970
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: and you know, it frustrated him. He was working with

971
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: Bob Corker and some legislation and then he was told

972
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,399
Speaker 1: by that Senate Democrats leadership, you shouldn't be working with him.

973
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: And he's just like, what the hell am I supposed

974
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: to be doing here? You know, he was like, and

975
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 1: Corker got the same lecture. Corker was told stop working

976
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: with Warner and Bennett on financial reform. This was back

977
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: during Dot Frank Right, and it was like Corker and

978
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: Warner were really did into it because they were kind

979
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: of their own little experts on this specific topic and

980
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: McConnell and Reid were telling them, stop helping the other guy,

981
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: stop working with the other guy. It's just crazy what's happened.

982
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 2: And so, let mean, you think about, like you're running

983
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 2: in a primary, what's the difference between the guy who

984
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 2: spent you know, was up all night for weeks and

985
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 2: weeks writing legislation to solve healthcare, immigration, you name it,

986
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: some of our biggest problems. That legislation never saw the

987
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 2: light of day. What's the diff between that guy and

988
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 2: the one who sat on Fox News and complained about

989
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 2: the other side. The guy on Fox News raised more money,

990
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 2: he wins that primary. And so I've talked to members

991
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 2: who are coming in and they're not hiring legislative staff anymore.

992
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: They just hire more bookers and more social media pea.

993
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: Remember when we laughed at Madison Cawthorne when he said

994
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: for his single term in Congress, well, the only thing

995
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: that staff that matters is a communication staff. And we

996
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 1: all thought, oh, and you're like, he's not wrong, and

997
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: if you're a backbenchure member of the House, all that matters.

998
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: I mean Nancy Mace saw that, and she you know,

999
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: you know she would she made a b line for

1000
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: people like me back when I was you know, seen

1001
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: as as as the way in onto television, and that

1002
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: was the only reason she had any interest in chatting

1003
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: with me to get on TV. It was always about

1004
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: getting on TV. And she she was not wrong. I mean,

1005
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: she's only considered a viable candidate for governor because she

1006
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 1: has such a public presence that she has created for

1007
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: so we some of us at are a little bit

1008
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: old school, probably think I don't think you have the

1009
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: best public persona anymore because of your public presence. And

1010
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 1: yet has that been a total has that totally ended

1011
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 1: her political career? Doesn't look like.

1012
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 2: It, No, because name idea at this point is so

1013
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: important for that other reason we mentioned, which is the

1014
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: death of the political parties. The political parties would have

1015
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 2: shut down Nancy Mace's ability to do any of that.

1016
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 2: And look, the list is long. Lauren Bobert, Marjorie Taylor

1017
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 2: Green AOC. You know, there's endless numbers of people who

1018
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: would be nothing backbenchers with no power right but for

1019
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 2: no political parties anymore. And by the way, for people

1020
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: listening to that who are thinking that makes no sense.

1021
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 2: Everything's really partisan.

1022
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: Ah huh, it's my favorite riddle.

1023
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very counterintuitive that we killed off the political

1024
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: parties and that increased negative polarization.

1025
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,600
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1049
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 1: we didn't you know, we have all these relief files

1050
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 1: that we've not opened up. Right, Relief foul number one

1051
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: would be simply expanding Congress, and due to a partisan

1052
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: fight nineteen twenty over how many seats to add to

1053
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 1: the House, right, we've shut it down. And that's been

1054
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: relief foul, because if you open that relief foul, you'd

1055
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: get more ideological, geographic, and ethnic diversity just by by

1056
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: by just creating a lot, and you'd probably minimize the

1057
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: need to jerry mander, and you'd certainly minimize and you'd

1058
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: also owe by the way, you'd also fix the electoral college,

1059
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: or you wouldn't have to worry about the popular vote

1060
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: in the electoral college split splitting. The reason why we're

1061
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: getting more right, it's more common now for the electoral

1062
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: college and the popular vote to not be have the

1063
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: same winner is because of these congressional districts. We haven't

1064
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: expanded the electoral vote count since I never.

1065
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 2: Realized that you're exactly right. The denominator keeps staying the

1066
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: same even as the population grows, and so we get

1067
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 2: closer divides in the numerator that's why it never happened before.

1068
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 1: Yeah a lot. Well, it's like and so we're up

1069
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: to now where a Wyoming voter has six times more

1070
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: influence on the next president, on the presidential vote than

1071
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: a California voter. Now, I think the founders did believe

1072
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: smaller states should have a tiny bit more sort of

1073
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 1: station than the larger states, because the larger states just

1074
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: by definition, we're always going to have some advantages. So

1075
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: you know, if you just used my denominator and went

1076
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: to you know, one perform a thousand, you'd have about

1077
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: eight somewhere about eight hundred and seventy five to a

1078
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 1: little under nine hundred members of Congress. A Wyoming voter

1079
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 1: would still have two and a half times more voting

1080
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: power for president than a California voter. That's a hell

1081
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 1: of a lot better than six as Yeah.

1082
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 2: Look, I'm actually pretty in favor of the electoral college

1083
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 2: and think that the reasons that we have it are

1084
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 2: and were important, but we have done everything in our

1085
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 2: power to dismantle its.

1086
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: Main reason for me, I was just going to say,

1087
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: the whole point of it was in case we the

1088
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 1: people elected basically a crook okay elected somebody who was

1089
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 1: or or worse right elected somebody who was basically in in,

1090
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: you know, in cahoots with another with a form power, right,

1091
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 1: which is which is the real? That's what the founders

1092
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: worried about. They worried about that. The whole point Electoral College,

1093
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: I think was about worrying about that that essentially, and

1094
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: back then the form power we were concerned about were

1095
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: the British.

1096
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still in the I hold a lot of

1097
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 2: animosity toward the British and George the Third in particular.

1098
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 2: I was giving a speech in London a couple of

1099
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 2: months ago and made a joke about that, and I

1100
01:03:58,720 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: got no less.

1101
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: So we have forgotten about our anger at King George,

1102
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: haven't we. It's too bad.

1103
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: I mean, have you been watching did you watch the

1104
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 2: ken Burns American Revolution?

1105
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: I am in I am watching, I am in the

1106
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: I am in the midst of it. Yeah, it's it's

1107
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: I think he's doing. Look talk about okay, ken Burns,

1108
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: you have somehow avoided the culture war polarization. Let's see

1109
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: you pull this one off. You're going to do the

1110
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 1: American Revolution? Good luck, brother, I think he's pulling. It's

1111
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: funny either ken Burns has enough sort of capital right

1112
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: for what he did with the Civil War. I mean,

1113
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 1: by god, he did the Civil War, he did baseball

1114
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: and Jackie. He's handled some of these cultural hot potatoes

1115
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: in other times so so well that you know. And

1116
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: at the same time he's not hidden his own politics,

1117
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 1: if you will, his own concerns about you know, I

1118
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: frankly feel like this we have such you know, we're

1119
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: not just divided left and right. I think we're divided.

1120
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: Are you a constitutionalist or are you or are you

1121
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: for something you know different right, a direct democracy or

1122
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 1: something you know not familiar to those of us that

1123
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: are that. Do frankly worship this Constitution And I, I

1124
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: borderline say I do in that. I don't think it's perfect,

1125
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: but I think we created as good of a system

1126
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: in a free democratic society as you can come up with.

1127
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 1: And the Constitution is a really good ballast if we

1128
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: know how to amend it and if we know how

1129
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: to use the tools. But we have these weird divides

1130
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 1: in that, and I have to say, boy can good

1131
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: good luck. But it looks like so far I feel

1132
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: like he is. I feel like he is. If you're

1133
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: a sixteen nineteen person. You're a seventeen seventy six person.

1134
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: You can't sit here and say he didn't hear you.

1135
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: How's that?

1136
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 2: I think? So it's so funny. You and I went

1137
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 2: into the same like, I.

1138
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: Know, I was nervous and shit, go ahead, Oh no,

1139
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: oh no, I don't know what is it? How's it

1140
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: gonna look? I mean, you know, even if I agree, like,

1141
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 1: are people going to like cancel him? Here we go?

1142
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 2: And I was obsessed with the Civil War documentary, but

1143
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 2: we had the cassette tapes and I would listen to

1144
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 2: it on the way to school. I played viola for

1145
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 2: a long time, and I learned by ear Ashrikan farewell,

1146
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 2: the like main you know theme song that they wrote

1147
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 2: for that, Like I'm it was my audition piece for

1148
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 2: you know, the Houston Civic Symphony. Okay, So I go

1149
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 2: into this like loving American history documentaries, thinking Ken Burns

1150
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 2: does a great job. I'm scared to death for him

1151
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 2: that he has chosen to do this. I totally agree

1152
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 2: with you, especially at the beginning where you need to

1153
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 2: establish your credibility for the documentary. I thought he nailed it.

1154
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 2: Not to mention Damian Lewis as George the Third and

1155
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 2: Mandy Batankin as Ben Franklin and Claire Danes as Abigail Adams.

1156
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 2: It's like the Cast from a Homeland is doing the

1157
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 2: American Revolution. I mean there's a lot to love there.

1158
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 2: You know, in episodes like as you get later into it,

1159
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 2: it gets his biases. Isn't even the right way his passions?

1160
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, of what his focus wants to be on.

1161
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 2: Yes, But you know what I got to tell you, Like,

1162
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 2: I'm I'm very conservative, not in the political dynamic we

1163
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 2: have right now, right or left, but as you say,

1164
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 2: like sort of constitution worshiping American history.

1165
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 1: I consider myself I call myself a small sea conservatives.

1166
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to be, you know. And I'm also

1167
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: a small l liberal. I believe in liberal democracy, and

1168
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: I'm a small sea conservative about how you enact power.

1169
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: Like I think, if you're going to change the if

1170
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: you're going to try to get three hundred and fifty

1171
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 1: million people to follow a law, yeah, goddamn right, it's

1172
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 1: going to take a long time to pass. And I

1173
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 1: think a lot of people have to look at that

1174
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 1: long yeah.

1175
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I'm a free speech lunatic and a Burkiyan

1176
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 2: minimalist who things and Burke like should be worshiped among

1177
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 2: our founders.

1178
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: Well we're party, Sarah, I don't have a I mean,

1179
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 1: I where is this party? Right? I keep? You know,

1180
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: I got I'm sure you've been chatty with people that

1181
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 1: mess around with The Forward Party has a lot sort

1182
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 1: of excommunicated left and right over there, and it's like,

1183
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 1: I think they kind of want to be the party

1184
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 1: for these people. But at the same time they're also like, well,

1185
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 1: we can't stand for too much yet you know.

1186
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 2: I know they stand. Yeah, I mean we should talk

1187
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 2: third parties. But here just on the ken burnstin for

1188
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 2: my biases, and they are biases. I've learned a lot

1189
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:40,600
Speaker 2: watching it, and I don't think there's any higher compliment

1190
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 2: that I can give.

1191
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: Than that, do you do death by Lightning? Oh?

1192
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 2: Yes, I did, because that's one of my beat reads

1193
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 2: that I recommend to people, which is Destiny of the

1194
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:55,840
Speaker 2: Republic by Candice Millard about the assassination of James Garfield

1195
01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 2: in eighteen eighty four. It's such as better.

1196
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: I think there's a better version of the book out there.

1197
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: I read. That's every Republic I know, but there's one

1198
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: called dark Horse. It's by a gentleman named Ken Ackerman,

1199
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,640
Speaker 1: a former Senate staffer, which is what I love about it.

1200
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 1: It's a classic sort of one of us. Okay, and

1201
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 1: I'll you know, he was a total passion project and

1202
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 1: it didn't get It's really well done. He spends a

1203
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 1: lot more time on some of the politics of the

1204
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,720
Speaker 1: Republican Party, a lot more on Roscoe Conkling, a lot

1205
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 1: more on that. So there's and you get, I mean,

1206
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: it's two books in one. He tries to do everything.

1207
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 1: But look what Candice Millar did was made it a story. Okay,

1208
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:42,719
Speaker 1: she told a great story, which makes it I'll be honest,

1209
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: and I have my own I do. I've already expressed

1210
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 1: this to my podcast listening, and hear me again. I

1211
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 1: felt I felt like we got the cliff notes version

1212
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,680
Speaker 1: and that there was I'm sorry Netflix only allowed them

1213
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: to do four episodes. It's worthy of eight to ten

1214
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 1: episodes to truly underst dan the era and like it. Really,

1215
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: you know, they just sort of I mean, Roscoe Conkling

1216
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 1: is a simpleton in this in the in the way

1217
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 1: they paint him, but he was fairly savvy. I mean,

1218
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: this guy was McConnell and Pelosi of his day. And

1219
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 1: you know, he was also absolutely a rabbit abolitionist and

1220
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:26,640
Speaker 1: very pro reconstruction. And there's this great scene in a

1221
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 1: in a book I read about Blanche Bruce who's vaguely

1222
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 1: touched on in the in Death by Lightning, where Blanche Bruce,

1223
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:38,799
Speaker 1: African American senator from Mississippi, his fellow Mississippi senator won't

1224
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: walk with him for the opening of Congress, which is

1225
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 1: a very wich was the tradition the two senators from

1226
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 1: the same state wouldn't do it because Mississippi was starting

1227
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 1: to turn on what was happening, turn against reconstruction, right,

1228
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: you know. And anyway, you know who walked with him,

1229
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 1: Roscoe Conklic, you know. So, I mean it was just

1230
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 1: sort of like Conkling is a complex figure. He is

1231
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 1: absolutely a machine boss, all of those things. But they

1232
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: painted everything was done in a very simplified way of

1233
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 1: painting everybody. And I'm just sort of I'm glad it

1234
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 1: was popular. I hope this encourages Netflix to allow the

1235
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: creators to have done. My guess is they truncated an

1236
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 1: eight to ten episode series into four episodes because they

1237
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: didn't think Garfield was a draw, and it turns out

1238
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: now people are digging this and it did really well,

1239
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: so hopefully they won't do that again.

1240
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so here's by the way, I said eighteen eighty four,

1241
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 2: I meant eighteen eighty one, the eighteen eighty election. He

1242
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 2: gets assassinated in eighteen eighty one, because I was anticipating

1243
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 2: my next question to you. So, okay, my book, my

1244
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 2: reading list starts with Manhunt, which is the Search for

1245
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 2: John Wilkes Booth, because I think it shows you quite

1246
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 2: a bit about Andrew Johnson. Now, they also turned that

1247
01:11:55,720 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 2: into a Netflix series, which is very different than the book.

1248
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,920
Speaker 1: Very different. But I thought they you know, I thought

1249
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 1: it was going to capture it. Well, here's what I

1250
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 1: do appreciate that Manhun did is you know, we have

1251
01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes we overly simplify history as we teach

1252
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 1: it right, and we have over time the Lincoln assassination

1253
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 1: has just been about Lincoln when it was an actual

1254
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: conspiracy to get rid of Lincoln, Johnson and the Secretary

1255
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:28,759
Speaker 1: of State at the time, and the fact that Seward, sorry,

1256
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,719
Speaker 1: I was blanking, so I was waiting for my brain

1257
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 1: to catch up, and so I appreciated that we sort

1258
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 1: of It's like my pet peeve about how we teach

1259
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:38,760
Speaker 1: World War One. We only teach it through the prism

1260
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 1: of Germany. We never teach the fall of the Ottoman Empire,

1261
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 1: which is what's created the Middle East mess that we

1262
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 1: are still dealing with today. But we don't teach history

1263
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: that way. We only teach it World War One through

1264
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 1: the prison of Germany, and we only teach the booth

1265
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 1: part of the assassination. Well, he was one part of

1266
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 1: a larger conspiracy. This was a large conspiracy of the

1267
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 1: Confederacy against the United States, and Andrew Johnson essentially shut

1268
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 1: it down, you know, shut down what would have been

1269
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:11,679
Speaker 1: a probably a bigger deal investigation had we truly embraced

1270
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: it the way it should have been.

1271
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 2: The past is never dead, it's not even pasted. Okay,

1272
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 2: So you start with Manhunts. I then think you can

1273
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 2: do some Grants autobiography. Then I go to William Rehnquist's

1274
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 2: Centennial Crisis about the seventeen seventy how.

1275
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 1: Many seven seventy how many? Let me stop you in

1276
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy three. First of all, what did you We

1277
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 1: just glossed over you, so you could do a Grant memoir.

1278
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 1: I hear you on that. What'd you think of.

1279
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 2: Tough?

1280
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 1: Oh you haven't done it. I did it last summer.

1281
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 1: I finally did it last summer. It's really worth it.

1282
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 1: I learned all sorts of stuff that I didn't realize.

1283
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,599
Speaker 1: How close the Dominican Republic came to being a state,

1284
01:13:55,479 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 1: how close we came to how the Republicans and Congress

1285
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: we're trying to essentially extract Canada as reparations for the

1286
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:10,000
Speaker 1: UK helping the South. That was another little interesting story.

1287
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 1: And Grant was obsessed with the Dominican because it was

1288
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 1: a deep seaport, it was going to be a first

1289
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 1: and so there was some thought and in fact, there

1290
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 1: was some thought of making it essentially the first black state,

1291
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 1: the first non white state. Was there was some thought

1292
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 1: to that. Anyway, there's just a lot of interesting It's

1293
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 1: very sympathetic to Grant that basically he was used by

1294
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people who used him, which I buy

1295
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 1: a little bit. But there was a little bit of

1296
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 1: celebrity drifter off of him more than it was about him.

1297
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:45,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Grant's Grant's one of those really interesting figures.

1298
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 2: If you want to study the presidency as well. We're

1299
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 2: about to go through sort of a well, this is

1300
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:55,600
Speaker 2: my point to you, Like the whole end of the

1301
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 2: nineteenth century is kind of a weird time for the

1302
01:14:58,000 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 2: office of the presidency.

1303
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: I completely look. The fact is it sounds like you

1304
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:03,599
Speaker 1: and I are about to geek out on the same thing.

1305
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:08,639
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with this period essentially of grant through really

1306
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 1: grant through hearting. I could go all the way through,

1307
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:15,720
Speaker 1: because I think it is the case of history rhyming. Right,

1308
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 1: we were moving from a grant we were industrializing. It's

1309
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 1: essentially as the railroads were beginning, and we're in a

1310
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: similar period. Right. You could probably back it up to

1311
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 1: the beginning of the internet, but we've been beginning of

1312
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: the Internet is essentially the railroads, and then you know

1313
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 1: striking oil, and that industrialization is essentially AI and social media. Right,

1314
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: And we're really experiencing almost a parallel set of challenges

1315
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 1: from the late twentieth early twenty first late nineteenth early twentieth.

1316
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:52,200
Speaker 2: And so my question to you is I drop off

1317
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:56,719
Speaker 2: basically with the eighteen eighty election with Garfield of Destiny

1318
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 2: of the Republic. By the way, that you should read

1319
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 2: Centennial Christ by William Renquist listeners it is the Chief

1320
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 2: Justice of the United States.

1321
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,759
Speaker 1: Why his book over the others. I've read four different

1322
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 1: versions of eighteen seventy. Of the eighteen seventy six, Brett

1323
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 1: Behar wrote one, a couple other historians wrote one, there

1324
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: was the Renquist one. I will just put it this way,

1325
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: whatever your party bias is today as an author, is

1326
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: what is applied to the conclusion drawn by those with

1327
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 1: the eighteen seventy six. It's funny to me, Ultimately everybody

1328
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 1: agrees on most of the set of facts. But what's

1329
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 1: interesting is I think the bias of the author dictates

1330
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 1: whether you believe the vote counts in the South. We're

1331
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 1: either unfair to the Republicans or unfair to the Democrats.

1332
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 2: What I like about the Renquist book is that you're

1333
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 2: getting a two fer, right. You're basically getting him to

1334
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:55,719
Speaker 2: talk about Bush by Gore, but he can't talk about

1335
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 2: bushb Gore, And so you're doing it through this eighteen

1336
01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:03,959
Speaker 2: seventy six lens. And it's so short, you know. Yeah,

1337
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 2: So it's it's this tiny little book that you can

1338
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 2: flip through in a night. And Ranquist also writes the

1339
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 2: Centennial crisis. After he's written grand inquisitions, he writes grand

1340
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 2: inquisitions about impeachment and about the impeachment of Justice Chase,

1341
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 2: which I'm totally like. That is my obsession right now

1342
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:25,559
Speaker 2: is the eighteen oh five impeachment of Chase. And he

1343
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 2: writes about the impeachment of Andrew Johnson, which is so

1344
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 2: fun because he writes that before the impeachment of Bill Clinton.

1345
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:38,760
Speaker 2: So he's about to be oversee the second impeachment in

1346
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 2: the history of the United States of a president and

1347
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 2: he doesn't know it when he's writing that book, which

1348
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:46,599
Speaker 2: is such a fun read, and so you all.

1349
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,639
Speaker 1: Is a good boy. I have not thought about going

1350
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 1: back to that Johnson impeachment book and reading that through

1351
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 1: the prism with that in mind.

1352
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:55,879
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so great.

1353
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:57,240
Speaker 1: That's great thought.

1354
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:00,639
Speaker 2: But by the way, the impeachment of Samuel Chase. Samuel

1355
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 2: Chase was a justice on the Supreme Court during John

1356
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 2: Marshall's time. Jefferson decides the Supreme Court isn't voting his

1357
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 2: way on a bunch of his pet projects. Chase is.

1358
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,639
Speaker 2: He's a very partisan justice. There's no question about that.

1359
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court's term is delayed because he's out campaigning

1360
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 2: for John Adams against Thomas Jefferson in that Battle of

1361
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:26,960
Speaker 2: eighteen hundred. That's of course in the musical Hamilton. And

1362
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 2: so when Jefferson gets into office and Chase is voting

1363
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 2: against him, He's like, efat, let's remove this guy, and

1364
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 2: so they impeach Chase. And it really would have been

1365
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:40,760
Speaker 2: it was this turning point in American history because Jefferson

1366
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 2: had basically said that if they can remove Chase, John

1367
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,680
Speaker 2: Marshall is next. And it would have so fundamentally changed

1368
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 2: that third branch of government into a rubber stamp that

1369
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:52,559
Speaker 2: presidents would have just put in the justices that would

1370
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:56,599
Speaker 2: agree with them and agree with their policy proposals, and

1371
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,439
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have an independent Supreme Court.

1372
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,120
Speaker 1: We are geeking out here and offering all sorts of

1373
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 1: book ideas, and I want to I want to keep

1374
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:14,680
Speaker 1: this going because it sounds like you I keep interrupting

1375
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: you to a certain.

1376
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 2: Now, I just I want to know your books to

1377
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:18,799
Speaker 2: the end of the nineteenth century.

1378
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 1: I want to know I see, well, I'll tell you

1379
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 1: a book that so what happened? And I'm going to

1380
01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: give you a short version. So for a brief period

1381
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 1: of time. I sold a mini series on Garfield and

1382
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 1: was in myself and a writing partner, Adam Pearlman. We

1383
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,679
Speaker 1: wrote a pilot. So let's just say that I had

1384
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 1: we had thought through all the different ways that we

1385
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:45,680
Speaker 1: were going to do this. So I obviously watched Death

1386
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 1: by Lightning in a very different way than most people

1387
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:50,680
Speaker 1: would have watched it, which is all they chose to do. That. Well,

1388
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 1: we were going to do this. One of the things

1389
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 1: we were going to do and was make Washington, d C.

1390
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:59,400
Speaker 1: The city one of the main characters, because you know,

1391
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 1: it was actually the small period of time where DC

1392
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:03,560
Speaker 1: got Home rule for a period of time, then it

1393
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 1: had Home rule taken away. Black political power was concentrated

1394
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 1: in the district in a very unique way, and there

1395
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,800
Speaker 1: was a lot of fascinating stories. And I read this

1396
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 1: incredible book and it's it's literally a biography of Washington

1397
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:20,080
Speaker 1: the City. And I am sorry, I don't have the

1398
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 1: title in front of me, but I am I'm so

1399
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:26,679
Speaker 1: it it is. I learned more about Jefferson and Washington

1400
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:28,600
Speaker 1: and what they were trying to do and designing the

1401
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 1: capital city. You know, you realize now the unfinished Canal

1402
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: in Georgetown you know what that was about. Washington was

1403
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,559
Speaker 1: determined to get to thought that the Potomac was going

1404
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 1: to get that they could connect to the Mississippi, and

1405
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 1: they were literally though. What Washington's vision was to make Washington,

1406
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: d C. The most important. He wanted to make it

1407
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:54,880
Speaker 1: the biggest port on the East coast. And in order

1408
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 1: to do that you had to connect. Obviously, he wanted

1409
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:00,639
Speaker 1: to connect all the Well, it didn't take them long

1410
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:03,519
Speaker 1: to realize, oh, that ain't gonna work, right, But it's

1411
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 1: just funny. You know, they didn't have their GPS then, right,

1412
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 1: they didn't really have any aerial shots. But it's what

1413
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 1: I love about this is it it really is sort

1414
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:15,960
Speaker 1: of understanding how the city was formed and then these

1415
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:19,960
Speaker 1: interesting periods that the period of laying it out and

1416
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:23,800
Speaker 1: all of that, and washing Jefferson actually took it over

1417
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 1: after a while. He's like, no, very trumpy in way.

1418
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 1: I've got an idea of how this city should be

1419
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 1: laid out. Let me take care of this. There was

1420
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:32,679
Speaker 1: even a little bit of a power struggle between Washington

1421
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 1: and Jefferson over over you know, building the city and

1422
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 1: laying it out. And then of course you had Grant

1423
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 1: and this is where he allowed himself to get corrupted

1424
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,520
Speaker 1: by people who wanted to control of the city, developers

1425
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:49,519
Speaker 1: who want to control the city. It is. But this book,

1426
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 1: there's an incredible period about d C when it briefly

1427
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 1: got home rule after the Civil War. Then then Grant

1428
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 1: takes it away, but it leaves this sort of vacuum

1429
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 1: of lack political power that's still got a little bit

1430
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:05,439
Speaker 1: of juice in it. And it's just a fascinating period

1431
01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:08,719
Speaker 1: in the history of Washington, the city, and it really

1432
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 1: sort of helps you understand the we we lived in

1433
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:14,680
Speaker 1: such a divisive political time, right if you think about it,

1434
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:19,719
Speaker 1: starting with after Grant, we don't re elect the president, okay,

1435
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:24,040
Speaker 1: to two consecutive terms until McKinley. We go through this

1436
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:28,160
Speaker 1: hill and we shoot McKinley. That's a whole nother you know.

1437
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 1: And by the way, do you.

1438
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 2: Know that Carl Rove has the great book on that.

1439
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:35,559
Speaker 1: He's got the great McKinley book, which which what I

1440
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:38,400
Speaker 1: haven't discovered, is a good book on Grover Cleveland. And

1441
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 1: you would think with the Trump election that somebody would

1442
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:43,599
Speaker 1: have would have and you know what, I that's one

1443
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:46,439
Speaker 1: of those that that I, you know, I wish I

1444
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 1: had been smarter, you know, if I wanted to get

1445
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:50,240
Speaker 1: into the history game, that would have been a book

1446
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 1: to jump in and do. Do Grover Cleveland, the last

1447
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 1: non consecutive president, you know, by the.

1448
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 2: Way, on Washington when I you know, I've lived on

1449
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 2: and off in DC a lot of my twenties, but

1450
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:05,000
Speaker 2: when I sort of finally moved here permanently, Jonathan Carl,

1451
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:07,800
Speaker 2: who I know, you know well from ABC News, gave

1452
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:11,719
Speaker 2: me the book Revily in Washington eighteen sixty to eighteen

1453
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 2: sixty five. So it's pre dating what you're talking about,

1454
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:20,760
Speaker 2: but also a fascinating time for Washington as the city.

1455
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:22,479
Speaker 2: It's sort of like Sex and the City, but instead

1456
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:23,240
Speaker 2: of New York City.

1457
01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:27,120
Speaker 1: It's well, here's an uncomfortable factoid. The deal where they

1458
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:29,559
Speaker 1: cut the where you know, the eighteen seventy six the

1459
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 1: deal that basically ended reconstruction was cut in a black

1460
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:34,160
Speaker 1: owned hotel in DC.

1461
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 2: That's ironic, depressing Atlanta Sporth thinks about it.

1462
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:41,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like, how what a I mean? And

1463
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 1: this is to me, what makes Garfield such a great

1464
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 1: character is that Garfield. Look, we do this with anybody

1465
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:50,240
Speaker 1: who gets gunned down too early in life, what if right?

1466
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 1: What if they had lived? If Kennedy had lived? If

1467
01:23:52,479 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 1: you know, my god, Stephen King wrote an entire book

1468
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:57,960
Speaker 1: on a portal of what if Kennedy had lived? And

1469
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:01,240
Speaker 1: of course the conclusion Stephen King came to as if

1470
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 1: Kennedy had finished his terms, it would have given us

1471
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 1: George Wallace as president. Just sort of think that's the

1472
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 1: way that book ends. By the way, did you know

1473
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:12,040
Speaker 1: that I.

1474
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 2: Have thought about what would have happened if Mitt Romney

1475
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:17,000
Speaker 2: had won twenty twelve. You certainly don't get Donald Trump.

1476
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:20,960
Speaker 1: If Garfield lives. I think Garfield, you know, garb That's

1477
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 1: my point, meaning we put all this, you know, we

1478
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:26,160
Speaker 1: had all these hopes, and we think certain things might

1479
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:28,559
Speaker 1: have happened if so and so lived, and death by

1480
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:33,240
Speaker 1: lightning certainly paints a very virtue a virtue virtuous version

1481
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:37,479
Speaker 1: of Garfield. But there's something to it. I mean, if

1482
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:41,840
Speaker 1: Garfield has two consecutive terms, I think he does. The

1483
01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 1: goal was to bring back reconstruction. And it's possible if

1484
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:51,080
Speaker 1: Garfield lives between Civil service reform and sort of bringing

1485
01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:53,559
Speaker 1: back reconstruction, we might have gotten the Civil Rights Act

1486
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:54,719
Speaker 1: nearly one hundred years sooner.

1487
01:24:55,960 --> 01:25:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm total that because, on the one hand, Garfield

1488
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:03,960
Speaker 2: comes in as a weak president in the sense that

1489
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:06,559
Speaker 2: he is the way he's picked, and Death by Lightning

1490
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:10,639
Speaker 2: does a great job of showing how he's the dark horse,

1491
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 2: right as the book is entitled the other.

1492
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 1: Book, the other book being entitled right.

1493
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in some ways that makes him quite weak.

1494
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 2: He doesn't come in with the normal set of allies

1495
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:22,519
Speaker 2: and party machines that everyone else had come in with.

1496
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:30,080
Speaker 2: So his death breathes up his vice president. Yeah, because

1497
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:33,720
Speaker 2: then buck some of that. If Garfield had stayed in,

1498
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,680
Speaker 2: would he have needed friends, would he have had to

1499
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 2: compromise more than he would have wanted to? Would he

1500
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 2: have sort of been a very bland president because he

1501
01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:45,080
Speaker 2: couldn't have actually had the political juice to get much done?

1502
01:25:45,200 --> 01:25:46,720
Speaker 2: Is my alternative version of that.

1503
01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:49,240
Speaker 1: It could be And what you just painted might have

1504
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:52,600
Speaker 1: been is the Obama presidency, right, and a presidency that

1505
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 1: was filled with you know what I think looking back

1506
01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:58,760
Speaker 1: on it, you know what did the Obama presidency accomplish?

1507
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,680
Speaker 1: Obamacare was a big no doubt about it. Other than

1508
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:07,080
Speaker 1: that it accomplished more of a breaking a barrier matter.

1509
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:11,679
Speaker 1: It certainly it certainly accomplished that. And I think breaking

1510
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 1: that glass ceiling or I don't know if we want

1511
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:16,400
Speaker 1: to call that a glass ceiling or a ceiling, whichever

1512
01:26:16,640 --> 01:26:20,519
Speaker 1: how you refer to that, but the presidency itself. And

1513
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,639
Speaker 1: you know, when I realized this is going to become

1514
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:26,280
Speaker 1: a talking point, I was at the Texas Tribune Festival.

1515
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:28,240
Speaker 1: I was there to interview Wes Moore. I went to

1516
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:31,759
Speaker 1: see the Tim Walls interview, and Tim Walls talked about

1517
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:36,679
Speaker 1: we wasted the Obama presidency, meaning they had these huge

1518
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 1: majorities for two years and they didn't do enough with it.

1519
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:42,600
Speaker 1: And he said the next time, you know it was

1520
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:46,760
Speaker 1: it was an interesting answer. The question was about, you know,

1521
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:49,360
Speaker 1: what have you learned from Trump? Some form of that,

1522
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:52,559
Speaker 1: like what and both and Tim Walls gave one answer,

1523
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 1: and Wes Moore gave a similar answer to me, which is,

1524
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:57,719
Speaker 1: you know, Trump's always doing something. There's always action with Trump.

1525
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 1: And he says, you know, we Democrats spent two much

1526
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 1: time trying to get a commission with a committee and

1527
01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 1: then get an interest group buy in and do this,

1528
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 1: and do this and do this, and then he talked

1529
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:10,960
Speaker 1: and then Walls turned it into you know this is

1530
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,600
Speaker 1: why we only and then we were too cautious, we

1531
01:27:13,680 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 1: only try one big thing, and oh, we're not going

1532
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:17,479
Speaker 1: to do cap and trade. Now now that we made

1533
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:21,720
Speaker 1: everybody walk the plank in Obamacare, and it's interesting that

1534
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,759
Speaker 1: that's the lesson that I think many of the next

1535
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 1: generation of Democrats are taking away from the combination of

1536
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 1: the Trump era in comparison to the Obama era.

1537
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:34,200
Speaker 2: That's funny because to me, I was at the Republican

1538
01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 2: National Committee during you know, I was on Romney's twenty

1539
01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 2: I was on Romney's oeight and twenty twelve campaign, and

1540
01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:43,400
Speaker 2: then went to the Republican National Committee after the twenty

1541
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:47,400
Speaker 2: twelve cycle. And from that vantage point, I would say

1542
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:51,160
Speaker 2: the huge mistake they made was dismantling the Democratic Party.

1543
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 2: They basically turned the Democratic National Committee into Obamacare or sorry, Obamacare,

1544
01:27:57,280 --> 01:27:59,200
Speaker 2: Obama for America, right.

1545
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 1: They called it ofa organizing fro America or something like that.

1546
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they lost a thousand state beats over the

1547
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 2: course of his presidency. Those that's their field. And so

1548
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:12,400
Speaker 2: when you look at you know, people sort of making

1549
01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 2: fun of the octogenarian bench in Congress right now on

1550
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:19,080
Speaker 2: the Democratic side, it is super lopsided. The Democrats are

1551
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 2: the ones with all the old people not leaving. But

1552
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:23,639
Speaker 2: I would say part of that is because they gutted

1553
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:27,559
Speaker 2: their bench during the Obama years and they were left

1554
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:28,519
Speaker 2: with nobody to.

1555
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 1: Run well there and then then and then of course,

1556
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 1: I mean just to fast forward that through. I mean

1557
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:39,799
Speaker 1: the most the single biggest mistake I think Obama made

1558
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:42,599
Speaker 1: for the future of the Democratic Party was was endorsing

1559
01:28:42,680 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. He did not understand that the party he

1560
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:50,000
Speaker 1: should have He should have opened up that twenty sixteen

1561
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:53,439
Speaker 1: primary campaign. And when he closed the door to any right,

1562
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:56,320
Speaker 1: when he shut that door, I understand why he did it.

1563
01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 1: He made you know, Bill Clinton was really important to

1564
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 1: his campaign reelection in twenty twelve, and Hillary Clinton was

1565
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:05,559
Speaker 1: a good soldier and a good partner and all of

1566
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:07,639
Speaker 1: those things. Like I think all of that was genuine.

1567
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:12,920
Speaker 1: I think I don't dismiss the personal reasons. But when

1568
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:15,879
Speaker 1: the minute he does that, this is why Amy Klobashow

1569
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:18,200
Speaker 1: doesn't run. There's that whole group of Democrats that ended

1570
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:21,799
Speaker 1: up running in twenty that run instead in twenty fifteen

1571
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 1: and twenty sixteen. And it's more I mean, like I said,

1572
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 1: Obama didn't remember that the reason he became the nominee

1573
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 1: O eight is that Democrats didn't want Hillary Clinton. And

1574
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:36,759
Speaker 1: how badly did Democrats not want Hillary Clinton? Twenty sixteen,

1575
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:40,280
Speaker 1: they almost nominated Bernie effing Sanders, That's how badly they did.

1576
01:29:40,439 --> 01:29:43,880
Speaker 1: I've always thought the rise of Sanders is directly a

1577
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:48,160
Speaker 1: result of Obama closing the primary door to anybody legitimate

1578
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 1: in going against Hillary. It became just like a steam valve. Well,

1579
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:55,440
Speaker 1: it was going to go somewhere and won Martin O'Malley,

1580
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:57,679
Speaker 1: and it wasn't going to be Jim Webb. The only

1581
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:02,120
Speaker 1: other person sitting there, you know, was Bernie Sanders. And

1582
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 1: so they half the party goes there. But I put

1583
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 1: that blame on Obama.

1584
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:09,840
Speaker 2: They try not to repeat the mistake the Obamas. I mean,

1585
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:14,280
Speaker 2: then in the last summer in twenty four and they

1586
01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 2: hold off on Harris because they know that she has

1587
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:20,720
Speaker 2: no chance of winning. They want the open primary at

1588
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:24,880
Speaker 2: the DNC convention, but it's gone, and so they get

1589
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:27,839
Speaker 2: on the bandwagon. But you could tell that it was really.

1590
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:29,800
Speaker 1: Because he screwed up the first time. Yeah, it's the

1591
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:32,439
Speaker 1: same thing, and then this time that you know, it's

1592
01:30:32,479 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 1: always one of these things. It was the nobody wanted

1593
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:38,320
Speaker 1: to go through the pain of denying the nomination to

1594
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:42,799
Speaker 1: Harris only to potentially have Harris win it anyway, because

1595
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 1: the delegates weren't going to feel comfortable denying the sitting

1596
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 1: vice president the nomination. So you know, even if you

1597
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:50,360
Speaker 1: wanted to open up the process, even if you thought

1598
01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:52,559
Speaker 1: that was there was no guarantee where the delegates were

1599
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:54,200
Speaker 1: going to go. I mean, this is what Death by

1600
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:56,559
Speaker 1: Lightning teaches us. Right by the way, I always say

1601
01:30:56,560 --> 01:30:59,400
Speaker 1: this about the Garfield story. If you've ever wondered where

1602
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:02,320
Speaker 1: the mythology of the dark horse candidate came from, it

1603
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:06,240
Speaker 1: is Garfield is singularly still the only person to come

1604
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:08,880
Speaker 1: from nowhere to get the presidency. And he did it.

1605
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 1: And we have this mythology that somebody can make a

1606
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 1: speech at a convention and become the nominee for president.

1607
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 1: It only happened once, but it happened once. That's what

1608
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:20,160
Speaker 1: I love the story so much.

1609
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:22,120
Speaker 2: And Barack Obama because it.

1610
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 1: Didn't happen that year. No, no, it didn't happen that year.

1611
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:26,920
Speaker 2: Because it is because of a speech he gave it

1612
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 2: a convention. You know, on the Republican side, This is

1613
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 2: what I mean about Romney losing in twenty twelve. It's

1614
01:31:33,560 --> 01:31:36,559
Speaker 2: not just that obviously then Republicans had to nominate someone

1615
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:38,800
Speaker 2: else in twenty sixteen. It's that they learned that the

1616
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:44,360
Speaker 2: nice guy wasn't going to win, and so they wanted

1617
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:46,479
Speaker 2: someone who was going to be the opposite of Romney.

1618
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 2: And if Romney had won in twenty twelve, it would

1619
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:51,280
Speaker 2: have been like, Ah, the sort of George W. Bush

1620
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:54,880
Speaker 2: character matters, That's what the Republican Party stands for, honor,

1621
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:58,879
Speaker 2: and and that that would have been more of the ethos,

1622
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 2: and potentially America could have skipped that post two thousand

1623
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:06,640
Speaker 2: and eight financial crisis populist movement that then happened worldwide.

1624
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 1: I had a relative asked me, did we make a

1625
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 1: mistake not electing Romney in twelve because it gave us Trump.

1626
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:18,360
Speaker 1: Now I'll give you an alternative theory that actually did.

1627
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:21,519
Speaker 1: As I do this at the end of every year,

1628
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:23,439
Speaker 1: and my podcast have been doing this since going back

1629
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:26,640
Speaker 1: to NBC. I pick out a few you know, a

1630
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:29,800
Speaker 1: butterfly effect, like what if, like you know, what if

1631
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:32,280
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton had resigned in ninety eight and Al Gore

1632
01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:36,160
Speaker 1: becomes president. I think It really politicizes nine to eleven

1633
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,400
Speaker 1: in a way that nobody ever believes because it Gore

1634
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:41,200
Speaker 1: probably wins in two thousand, for sure, he sort of reelected.

1635
01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:43,559
Speaker 1: Bush probably doesn't even run against him because he would

1636
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:45,400
Speaker 1: have been very cautious and going, oh, you're not going

1637
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:47,600
Speaker 1: to defeat a sitting VP. You know, there would have

1638
01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:49,599
Speaker 1: been it would have been a different Democratic Party. There's

1639
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: all sorts of but you know, one decision creates these

1640
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,120
Speaker 1: butterfly effects. I'll give you one that I did last

1641
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:58,000
Speaker 1: year about this issue of going from Romney to Trump.

1642
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:04,080
Speaker 1: If there's no Bridgegate, Chris Christie's the front runner in thirteen,

1643
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:07,719
Speaker 1: fourteen and fifteen, and there is no room for Trump

1644
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:12,240
Speaker 1: because Christy is enough Trump, right, He's the no more

1645
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 1: mister nice guy. And it's a more gradual version from

1646
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:19,280
Speaker 1: Romney to to you know, it's Trump's a more abrupt

1647
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:23,680
Speaker 1: like jump. Right. Christy was sort of the you know,

1648
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:27,599
Speaker 1: Jersey version, but sort of with with some empathy in him, right.

1649
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:32,920
Speaker 1: And I actually buy that that if bringey Gate doesn't happen,

1650
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:36,280
Speaker 1: or if he just says, you're goddamn right, I ordered

1651
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 1: the code read and you know, I don't care what

1652
01:33:39,479 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 1: you want to do it would have you know, I

1653
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: think it literally is a two day story. My friend

1654
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 1: Bill Baroni doesn't have to go to prison. But that's

1655
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:49,280
Speaker 1: a whole nother you know. You know, Christy messed that

1656
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:51,559
Speaker 1: up for a variety in a variety of ways. But

1657
01:33:51,600 --> 01:33:53,919
Speaker 1: if it doesn't happen, or if he handles it differently,

1658
01:33:54,800 --> 01:34:00,680
Speaker 1: is there no Trump and Christy is the then the

1659
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:04,559
Speaker 1: more rational move from away from mister Knight's guy.

1660
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:08,320
Speaker 2: Interesting, I've always seen Christy as the heir to John

1661
01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:11,240
Speaker 2: McCain in a lot of ways. I got into politics

1662
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 2: because of the piece that was written in Rolling Stone

1663
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 2: by David Foster Wallace about the two thousand primary for

1664
01:34:18,400 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 2: John McCain bullshit one and bullshit two, the buses that

1665
01:34:22,439 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 2: he was driving on. And you know, I'm on Sundays

1666
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:30,000
Speaker 2: with Chris Christy on ABC pretty frequently. Yeah, he is

1667
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:34,240
Speaker 2: the most talented guy on TV. It like, I'm the

1668
01:34:34,280 --> 01:34:36,160
Speaker 2: person who sits there for the next twenty four hours

1669
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 2: thinking of all the things I should have said and

1670
01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 2: how I wasn't right, you know, like, and I just

1671
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:44,760
Speaker 2: kicked myself pairing myself to Chris Christie right next to me.

1672
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 2: It's so annoying. No, I mean he's the best. I

1673
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:48,360
Speaker 2: adore him.

1674
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:53,720
Speaker 1: He again, he just he he mismanaged that period, and

1675
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 1: I think he knows it, but he never wants to

1676
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 1: admit it, you know. I mean, because we were human beings,

1677
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:01,960
Speaker 1: I get it it. You know. Look, I have a

1678
01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:04,839
Speaker 1: problem with the relationship with him is not great because

1679
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:07,720
Speaker 1: of it, and it just because it's very personal. But

1680
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 1: I you know, he's still an incredible political Athlete's I

1681
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:15,960
Speaker 1: love to use that phrase political athlete, and he's an

1682
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:20,240
Speaker 1: incredible political athlete, and he you know, it was so

1683
01:35:20,360 --> 01:35:22,760
Speaker 1: against brand right. The problem with Bridgegate for him was

1684
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:26,080
Speaker 1: either he didn't know either he ordered it or he

1685
01:35:26,120 --> 01:35:29,080
Speaker 1: didn't order it right. And one thing we all knew

1686
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:32,000
Speaker 1: about Chris Christy was he was a micromanager. This wasn't

1687
01:35:32,040 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 1: an absent tee leader. So it wasn't believable that he

1688
01:35:35,080 --> 01:35:37,280
Speaker 1: didn't know. And when he tried to feign that he

1689
01:35:37,320 --> 01:35:39,519
Speaker 1: didn't know, you were just like, well, now you're being

1690
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:41,599
Speaker 1: a typical politician. I thought you were the straight shooter.

1691
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 2: Like.

1692
01:35:42,120 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 1: It undermined his entire brand in a way that I

1693
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:46,560
Speaker 1: don't think even he appreciated.

1694
01:35:47,479 --> 01:35:49,880
Speaker 2: The problem with your theory is that you're not really

1695
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:53,320
Speaker 2: taking into account the Tea Party movement, piece of the

1696
01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:57,000
Speaker 2: Republican Party. And the reason that Ted Cruz comes in

1697
01:35:57,080 --> 01:35:59,960
Speaker 2: as the first runner up to Trump in twenty six

1698
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:06,200
Speaker 2: sixteen is because of that specific type of conservatism that

1699
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:09,960
Speaker 2: Ted Cruz represented and Chris Christy was not that because

1700
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:12,280
Speaker 2: he's been a governor and had a record for eight years.

1701
01:36:12,320 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: So don't you think it's Christy And but don't you

1702
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:16,760
Speaker 1: think there's no room for Trump? And don't you think

1703
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:19,080
Speaker 1: Christie's the alpha at that point? Like Trump?

1704
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:20,720
Speaker 2: Interesting because it is.

1705
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:23,080
Speaker 1: Just a different version. You know, by the time, Christy

1706
01:36:23,240 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 1: was a neuter version of himself. I'm sorry, he just

1707
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 1: was by the time. We didn't get to see the

1708
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:32,280
Speaker 1: full Chris Christy until a brief period in that, you know,

1709
01:36:32,560 --> 01:36:34,559
Speaker 1: when he sort of took Rubio out in the New

1710
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:37,479
Speaker 1: Hampshire primary. But we didn't see the version of Christie.

1711
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:42,519
Speaker 1: You know, imagine that Christy during the earlier part of

1712
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:44,679
Speaker 1: the primary season. It may have been Christy and Cruz

1713
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:46,880
Speaker 1: for the final right, there probably is no room. Casik

1714
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:49,599
Speaker 1: probably doesn't catch fire. The Kasik people are with Christy.

1715
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 1: Plus Christy also has sort of the Bush wing in

1716
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:57,240
Speaker 1: his own way. He's a formidable I think co front runner,

1717
01:36:57,240 --> 01:36:59,439
Speaker 1: and I agree with you on Cruz and that'd have

1718
01:36:59,439 --> 01:37:00,240
Speaker 1: been fascinating.

1719
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,639
Speaker 2: Well, I was running Carly Fiory in this campaign during

1720
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:07,000
Speaker 2: that cycle, and I will tell you this is like

1721
01:37:07,040 --> 01:37:09,519
Speaker 2: the little known thing that you only know if you're

1722
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:11,840
Speaker 2: sort of in the deep weeds. You who took us out?

1723
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:15,759
Speaker 2: Chris Christy?

1724
01:37:15,920 --> 01:37:18,920
Speaker 1: How did he do that? I'm vaguely yeah, it was

1725
01:37:18,960 --> 01:37:19,599
Speaker 1: the New Hampshiter.

1726
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 2: We got pushed out. He got us out of the

1727
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:23,120
Speaker 2: New Hampshire debate.

1728
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:25,400
Speaker 1: He pushed her. That's right. She didn't make it to

1729
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:27,439
Speaker 1: the main stage and he barely got in, right.

1730
01:37:27,680 --> 01:37:29,880
Speaker 2: That's right. And so he had made some calls into

1731
01:37:29,920 --> 01:37:34,599
Speaker 2: the RNC and had pulled some you know, some carrots

1732
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 2: and some sticks. Yeah, he and I have talked about this,

1733
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:39,879
Speaker 2: and I think it's pretty funny now. But it shows

1734
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:42,720
Speaker 2: I think what you're talking about, which is both he's

1735
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 2: a good athlete on the field, but he's a good

1736
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:46,479
Speaker 2: athlete off the field too.

1737
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:49,080
Speaker 1: No, I think it is. It is. It is a

1738
01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:51,760
Speaker 1: fascinating what if I think, if Bridgegate doesn't happen, or

1739
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:54,439
Speaker 1: if he just handles it in the way that I

1740
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:57,720
Speaker 1: think we Chris Christy today would probably have handled it.

1741
01:37:58,120 --> 01:38:00,599
Speaker 2: So, Chuck Todd, this is my question to you. Does

1742
01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:03,879
Speaker 2: the next Democratic president who needs to restore the Department

1743
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 2: of Justice pick Chris Christy as attorney general to have

1744
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:10,479
Speaker 2: that cross partisan appeal?

1745
01:38:11,400 --> 01:38:13,719
Speaker 1: You know, so you this gets that too. I actually

1746
01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 1: think we need to have an entirely different way that

1747
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:20,000
Speaker 1: we appoint the Justice Department, and I think we need

1748
01:38:20,040 --> 01:38:23,519
Speaker 1: to figure out how to sort of force a we

1749
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:26,639
Speaker 1: need to detach justice from the executive branch and so forth.

1750
01:38:27,400 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 2: I disagree entirely. I think we're going to have to

1751
01:38:29,479 --> 01:38:30,760
Speaker 2: do a whole nother podcast on this.

1752
01:38:31,040 --> 01:38:33,680
Speaker 1: I think we should because I think, you know, I

1753
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:35,720
Speaker 1: think I at least would want to set up kind

1754
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 1: of like the Federal Reserve, where no one president can

1755
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:42,479
Speaker 1: sort of do wholesale changes to sort of the rule

1756
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:44,920
Speaker 1: of law just based on, you know, wiping out the

1757
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 1: entire political leadership. Like I'd like to see sort of staggering.

1758
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:52,280
Speaker 1: I'd like to see five year terms for the DAGs,

1759
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:55,800
Speaker 1: for various DAGs, and that way you guarantee that no

1760
01:38:56,040 --> 01:39:00,200
Speaker 1: one president controls I think we've just proven that you

1761
01:39:00,280 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 1: can't the politicizing of the Justice Department. I mean, at

1762
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether the

1763
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:08,800
Speaker 1: left doesn't. You know, right now, the left doesn't believe

1764
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:10,920
Speaker 1: anything coming out of justice. Before it was the right

1765
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:13,639
Speaker 1: didn't believe any But here's the problem. Eventually, if both

1766
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,320
Speaker 1: the left and the right agree that when that justice

1767
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:19,479
Speaker 1: is politicized and eventually none of us are going to

1768
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:21,240
Speaker 1: believe anything that comes out of it, I think we

1769
01:39:21,320 --> 01:39:24,320
Speaker 1: have to do. That's an interesting way of trying to restore.

1770
01:39:24,720 --> 01:39:27,520
Speaker 1: By the way, that's what Biden was trying with Meryk Garland.

1771
01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:30,800
Speaker 1: In his defense, it turned out Garland just didn't know

1772
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:33,479
Speaker 1: how to didn't understand the political side of the job,

1773
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:36,000
Speaker 1: and there was a political side of the job. But

1774
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:37,800
Speaker 1: I would argue, and I know we're getting late. It

1775
01:39:37,800 --> 01:39:39,240
Speaker 1: sounds like you've got to get going here. And I

1776
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:41,200
Speaker 1: know I promised you under an hour and I have

1777
01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 1: thirty five seconds. So that's my quick argument there. But

1778
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:46,400
Speaker 1: pushback quickly.

1779
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:51,680
Speaker 2: We want the Justice Department to focus on the priorities

1780
01:39:51,720 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 2: of the president, so that after the two thousand and

1781
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:58,719
Speaker 2: eight financial crisis, Barack Obama moves federal prosecutors off gun

1782
01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:02,400
Speaker 2: cases and even tear cases to put them on financial crimes,

1783
01:40:02,760 --> 01:40:07,439
Speaker 2: and then the job starts, crimes starts spiking, and you

1784
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:10,559
Speaker 2: have Trump, move aussays, and again, I'm at the Department

1785
01:40:10,560 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 2: of Justice at this point. Move aussays, back onto gun crimes.

1786
01:40:14,280 --> 01:40:17,919
Speaker 2: That is the responsiveness that voters expect from the president.

1787
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:20,080
Speaker 2: And I hear you that we've broken it. But we've

1788
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:24,720
Speaker 2: broken it by electing bad presidents, not by things that

1789
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:27,000
Speaker 2: we need to do to the Department of Justice.

1790
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:29,400
Speaker 1: Well, I guess I could argue that, Look, we didn't know. Look,

1791
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:32,200
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice was something we didn't fully appreciate

1792
01:40:32,240 --> 01:40:34,320
Speaker 1: that we needed at the beginning. In fairness, right, the

1793
01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:37,360
Speaker 1: Founders didn't really have a and I think that's one

1794
01:40:37,360 --> 01:40:41,000
Speaker 1: of those today it's like i'd loved it. Now, Hey, hey, founders,

1795
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:43,680
Speaker 1: here's a challenge. You guys didn't think of here. What

1796
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:45,720
Speaker 1: do you think of this? How would you have handled this? Right?

1797
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:48,680
Speaker 1: Or Hey founders, Now, by the way, the Founders never

1798
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,000
Speaker 1: told us how many members of the Supreme Court there

1799
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:53,479
Speaker 1: should be. Why do you think they didn't?

1800
01:40:56,360 --> 01:40:59,720
Speaker 2: That's a good question. You know, the original court under

1801
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 2: John Jay didn't really do much at all.

1802
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:06,639
Speaker 1: John Jay, right, was it five members? Then? The originally

1803
01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:07,439
Speaker 1: there were five and there.

1804
01:41:07,400 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 2: Were six, and they tied quite a bit, and then

1805
01:41:09,400 --> 01:41:11,760
Speaker 2: we haven't really gone back to the even numbers since then,

1806
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 2: and then we've vacillated. We went, you know, down to seven,

1807
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:17,400
Speaker 2: we've gone up to ten. We've been at nine for

1808
01:41:17,479 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 2: over one hundred years, well over one hundred years at

1809
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:23,040
Speaker 2: this point. Do you have a reason why you think

1810
01:41:23,080 --> 01:41:24,400
Speaker 2: they didn't set the number.

1811
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:27,320
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, that's you know, it's it's i've here,

1812
01:41:27,360 --> 01:41:29,120
Speaker 1: I've here's I'll tell you why. I've thought about this

1813
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:31,960
Speaker 1: more often because I'm I think that we should have

1814
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:36,479
Speaker 1: I read Federal seventy eight and the Hamilton on the

1815
01:41:36,560 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: judiciary and how we select judges, and I read it

1816
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:42,799
Speaker 1: as we need the least partisan people you can find,

1817
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:44,880
Speaker 1: and to me, the only way to do that is

1818
01:41:44,920 --> 01:41:47,280
Speaker 1: to make the number three quarters in the Senate. Now,

1819
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:50,960
Speaker 1: I had somebody say to me, well, if that is

1820
01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:52,600
Speaker 1: what they intended, they would have written it in the

1821
01:41:52,880 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 1: you know, they were very specific when they wanted super

1822
01:41:55,240 --> 01:41:58,320
Speaker 1: majorities and when they didn't want super majorities. And I thought, okay,

1823
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:02,000
Speaker 1: I accept that premise, right, because there are specific places

1824
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 1: where they said, yeah, you need supermajorities for X. You know,

1825
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:08,559
Speaker 1: not necessarily for why right, And so they didn't do

1826
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:11,719
Speaker 1: it for that, So that's interesting to me, and that's fair.

1827
01:42:11,800 --> 01:42:15,000
Speaker 1: So I don't you know, it's not as if those

1828
01:42:15,040 --> 01:42:18,160
Speaker 1: ideas weren't on the table. They just clearly chose for

1829
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:21,080
Speaker 1: maybe for compromise reasons whatever, not to do it. Like

1830
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:23,080
Speaker 1: I tell you one that I don't get at all.

1831
01:42:23,240 --> 01:42:25,439
Speaker 1: I have no idea why there's a pardon power other

1832
01:42:25,520 --> 01:42:29,599
Speaker 1: than somebody wanted a pardon. That's why they say. That

1833
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:33,679
Speaker 1: is the best explanation I've gotten from a Founding Father historian.

1834
01:42:34,240 --> 01:42:35,840
Speaker 2: No, you know what, I think the pardon power is

1835
01:42:35,840 --> 01:42:39,120
Speaker 2: actually incredibly important. I would ratify an amendment to also

1836
01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:41,880
Speaker 2: put that through the advice and consent process in the Senate.

1837
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:43,719
Speaker 2: I think that was doing it.

1838
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 1: Definitely think there needs to be a committee of some sort.

1839
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:48,920
Speaker 1: But yes, like a partner that you.

1840
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:52,040
Speaker 2: Think about is a part of the three most famous pardons.

1841
01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:55,240
Speaker 2: It's Washington's parton of the Whiskey Rebellion, It's going to

1842
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:59,519
Speaker 2: be Johnson's pardon slash amnesty of the Confederates, and then

1843
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:02,639
Speaker 2: for Word's pardon of Nixon. All three of those were

1844
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:07,400
Speaker 2: not the sort of mercy pardons of the Kings of England.

1845
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:17,280
Speaker 2: They were trying to ameliorate political problems that were potentially

1846
01:43:17,320 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 2: existential to the country and to move past those, and

1847
01:43:21,720 --> 01:43:23,840
Speaker 2: those were pretty important actually, So I think, you know,

1848
01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 2: there's those who want to get rid of the pardon power.

1849
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:27,920
Speaker 2: I think that's a huge mistake. But if we had

1850
01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:30,360
Speaker 2: the advice and consent of the Senate, it would get

1851
01:43:30,439 --> 01:43:34,880
Speaker 2: rid of the family pardon bullshit that we're seeing now.

1852
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:38,800
Speaker 1: Well, look, I boit, I felt this the last time

1853
01:43:38,800 --> 01:43:40,479
Speaker 1: you and I podcast that were like, well, we're gonna

1854
01:43:40,479 --> 01:43:42,160
Speaker 1: have to do this again. We're going to have to

1855
01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:44,880
Speaker 1: do this again because I think the Ford pardon in

1856
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:48,880
Speaker 1: hindsight was a huge mistake. Oh okay, I think. And

1857
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: so it turns out and by the way I was

1858
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, I always say I was raised to believe it.

1859
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:57,519
Speaker 1: I was raised to understand it that way. And then

1860
01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:00,599
Speaker 1: we went through Trump and you realized, oh no, you know,

1861
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:05,679
Speaker 1: this set off, This ended up symbolically creating a protected

1862
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:10,800
Speaker 1: political class that we never should have created. It. It

1863
01:44:10,960 --> 01:44:13,639
Speaker 1: just y, I understand the decision in the moment.

1864
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:17,120
Speaker 2: What's that I'm open to this argument.

1865
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand the decision in the moment, and I

1866
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:22,120
Speaker 1: would argue that Ford did it for his own personal

1867
01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:25,160
Speaker 1: political reasons. This was not that I know the idea.

1868
01:44:25,360 --> 01:44:27,439
Speaker 1: It is painted as if it was for the country.

1869
01:44:27,920 --> 01:44:29,759
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is, if he didn't

1870
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:31,920
Speaker 1: pardon for it, he is He does not get the

1871
01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 1: Republican nomination in.

1872
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 2: Seventy six, but his presidency is totally focused on that right.

1873
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 1: And this is one month after he makes this decision,

1874
01:44:40,360 --> 01:44:42,760
Speaker 1: one month after he takes office. This is before the

1875
01:44:42,800 --> 01:44:46,760
Speaker 1: seventy four midterms, Okay, which probably made the seventy four

1876
01:44:46,760 --> 01:44:49,000
Speaker 1: midterms even worse for the Republicans for.

1877
01:44:48,920 --> 01:44:49,840
Speaker 2: What it's worth, for sure.

1878
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but anyway, we've got it. It just feels like

1879
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:54,440
Speaker 1: we just have to put a pin in our conversation.

1880
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:58,559
Speaker 1: What's thet tell people, how they read more of you,

1881
01:44:59,000 --> 01:45:01,120
Speaker 1: how they see more of you, all of those things.

1882
01:45:01,160 --> 01:45:03,799
Speaker 1: So that I'm a people know, I'm a huge advocate

1883
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:06,879
Speaker 1: of the Dispatch. It's one of my places I recommend

1884
01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:09,479
Speaker 1: people to go to all the time. I mean, Scott

1885
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:14,280
Speaker 1: Linscombe has educated me more about trade than any individual

1886
01:45:14,320 --> 01:45:17,720
Speaker 1: there is, So I just highly recommend so many of

1887
01:45:17,760 --> 01:45:18,840
Speaker 1: your newsletters. But you go.

1888
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:22,719
Speaker 2: I have a legal podcast with David French called advisory

1889
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:25,479
Speaker 2: opinions where we break down everything the Supreme Court and

1890
01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:28,240
Speaker 2: the circuit public courts are doing. We'll dabble in some

1891
01:45:28,240 --> 01:45:31,200
Speaker 2: state supreme courts from now and then. And then I

1892
01:45:31,200 --> 01:45:33,880
Speaker 2: have a book coming out called Last Branch Standing that'll

1893
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:36,920
Speaker 2: be a Supreme Court explainer and with a lot of

1894
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:39,759
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of good color for someone like you, Chuck.

1895
01:45:40,040 --> 01:45:41,920
Speaker 1: Well, I can't wait when's the book come out because

1896
01:45:42,080 --> 01:45:44,120
Speaker 1: I want to schedule that, but you can order it now.

1897
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:47,760
Speaker 1: We will, we will schedule that podcast if you will,

1898
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:50,920
Speaker 1: if you humor me again. And and we've got so

1899
01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:54,040
Speaker 1: we've got to fix the Justice Department, uh huh and

1900
01:45:54,479 --> 01:45:56,800
Speaker 1: Ford pardon right, like, those are the two big things

1901
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:58,560
Speaker 1: we need to you know, how are we going to

1902
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:03,600
Speaker 1: our ideas for restore boring the public's belief in the

1903
01:46:03,640 --> 01:46:07,240
Speaker 1: role of law? Is it? Can it be done by

1904
01:46:07,280 --> 01:46:08,160
Speaker 1: a president? Or does it?

1905
01:46:08,240 --> 01:46:08,360
Speaker 2: There?

1906
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:12,120
Speaker 1: Is this system have to change? And then here's a

1907
01:46:12,160 --> 01:46:15,200
Speaker 1: third item for the agenda. How do we trigger it?

1908
01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:18,719
Speaker 1: How should we get people to embrace a constitutional convention?

1909
01:46:18,760 --> 01:46:19,639
Speaker 1: Because I kind of think we.

1910
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:22,960
Speaker 2: Need one, at least an amendment to make amending easier.

1911
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:26,280
Speaker 1: Oh you would like to do that? I don't mind

1912
01:46:26,280 --> 01:46:29,000
Speaker 1: that amendments are hard. I just think that we just

1913
01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:33,400
Speaker 1: need to make the process not seem like it's it's

1914
01:46:35,120 --> 01:46:37,280
Speaker 1: that it's too much of a slog like may be

1915
01:46:37,360 --> 01:46:40,280
Speaker 1: speeding up the process in some form, but I think

1916
01:46:40,320 --> 01:46:41,280
Speaker 1: the idea hard.

1917
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:44,160
Speaker 2: But as Justice Scalia said, it shouldn't be this hard.

1918
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:47,080
Speaker 1: No interesting. So what does that mean? Give me a

1919
01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:49,040
Speaker 1: quick teaser on that. What would you get right?

1920
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:52,599
Speaker 2: Get rid of? Basically the role of Congress in it?

1921
01:46:54,280 --> 01:46:56,799
Speaker 2: The states still need to ratify three quarters of the states,

1922
01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:02,439
Speaker 2: but lower either bypassing Congress or lower the number in Congress.

1923
01:47:02,479 --> 01:47:07,439
Speaker 1: Would you ever endorse national referenda? No, neither. Would I

1924
01:47:07,520 --> 01:47:09,520
Speaker 1: actually believe state referenda are unconstitutional.

1925
01:47:10,160 --> 01:47:11,120
Speaker 2: I think they're a disaster.

1926
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:14,880
Speaker 1: Oh, I totally agree that for the most part they've done.

1927
01:47:15,040 --> 01:47:17,639
Speaker 1: You know, that sets things back, doesn't It doesn't pave

1928
01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:21,320
Speaker 1: the way forward. It just helps partisans who have who

1929
01:47:21,360 --> 01:47:24,879
Speaker 1: are in the minority. That's all the referendu process seems

1930
01:47:25,080 --> 01:47:27,680
Speaker 1: seems to do. But we are not a direct democracy

1931
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:30,840
Speaker 1: or a republic, and I assume that that should apply

1932
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:32,600
Speaker 1: to the states as well. That's why I don't I

1933
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 1: don't buy that. I am surprised that referenda haven't been

1934
01:47:35,400 --> 01:47:40,280
Speaker 1: challenged under that under the idea that that it's not

1935
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:44,200
Speaker 1: what the framers intended. All right, all right, my friend,

1936
01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:46,680
Speaker 1: we got a big agenda. It's going to take us

1937
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:47,599
Speaker 1: two hours, so we'll see.

1938
01:47:47,800 --> 01:47:48,519
Speaker 2: I love it, Thank you.

1939
01:47:50,760 --> 01:47:53,840
Speaker 1: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

1940
01:47:53,880 --> 01:47:57,000
Speaker 1: there's a reason. Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury

1941
01:47:57,040 --> 01:47:59,799
Speaker 1: law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've recovered

1942
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:03,080
Speaker 1: twenty five billion dollars for more than half a million clients.

1943
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:07,200
Speaker 1: It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing,

1944
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:10,280
Speaker 1: just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

1945
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:13,439
Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

1946
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:16,639
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

1947
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:20,160
Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

1948
01:48:20,200 --> 01:48:23,479
Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and

1949
01:48:23,479 --> 01:48:26,519
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty

1950
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:28,719
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So with more than one thousand lawyers across

1951
01:48:28,760 --> 01:48:31,200
Speaker 1: the country, they know how to deliver for everyday people.

1952
01:48:31,280 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 1: If you're injured, you need a lawyer. You need somebody

1953
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:36,559
Speaker 1: to get your back, check out for the People dot Com,

1954
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:41,719
Speaker 1: Slash podcast or Dow Pound Law Pound five two nine

1955
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:45,439
Speaker 1: law on your cell phone. And remember all law firms

1956
01:48:45,479 --> 01:48:47,360
Speaker 1: are not the same, So check out Morgan and Morgan.

1957
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:53,840
Speaker 1: Their fee is free unless they win. Well, I can't

1958
01:48:53,840 --> 01:48:56,000
Speaker 1: wait to have Sarah back. We are going to debate

1959
01:48:56,080 --> 01:49:01,040
Speaker 1: whether the single worst presidential decision in the twentieth century

1960
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 1: was Ford's partnering of Nixon. I cannot wait to have

1961
01:49:05,880 --> 01:49:08,719
Speaker 1: that long conversation with Sarah going forward. Let's just say

1962
01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:12,519
Speaker 1: that she's already a return guest. She's already. If I

1963
01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:15,439
Speaker 1: can create sort of like the SNL hosting hall of

1964
01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:17,680
Speaker 1: Fame where you get five or more appearances and you're

1965
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:20,479
Speaker 1: you're in my hall of fame, Sarah Skar is easily

1966
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:24,400
Speaker 1: going to end up being one of the early first

1967
01:49:24,439 --> 01:49:27,960
Speaker 1: five time guests, right Mark Xandy's already in there, getting

1968
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:31,040
Speaker 1: close to that number. Jonathan Martin's getting close to that number.

1969
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:33,679
Speaker 1: My friends at Punch Bowler getting there. You know where

1970
01:49:33,680 --> 01:49:35,680
Speaker 1: I you know where I go. I really you know,

1971
01:49:35,760 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 1: people that know their shit are going to be your

1972
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:42,080
Speaker 1: five time Toodcast appearances. And Sarah Esker is somebody who

1973
01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 1: knows her shit. So with that, let's go into the

1974
01:49:45,479 --> 01:49:55,519
Speaker 1: time machine. So this week on the Toddcast time Machine,

1975
01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 1: obviously I'm looking. I look, it is hard to ignore

1976
01:49:58,439 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 1: December seventh. So I'm not gonna ignore December seventh. I'm

1977
01:50:01,080 --> 01:50:04,439
Speaker 1: going to lean in to December seventh, but I'm going

1978
01:50:04,479 --> 01:50:05,720
Speaker 1: to do it in a slightly different way than you

1979
01:50:05,800 --> 01:50:09,639
Speaker 1: might expect, because what December seventh did is it shifted

1980
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:12,559
Speaker 1: us from a nation that listened together. It was the

1981
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:15,120
Speaker 1: beginning of something where we were a nation that listened together.

1982
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:19,360
Speaker 1: Now we are a nation that listens alone. So I'm

1983
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:22,559
Speaker 1: kind of starting with December seventh, nineteen forty one, Pearl Harbor.

1984
01:50:22,960 --> 01:50:25,880
Speaker 1: We at least have read about the shock. We don't

1985
01:50:25,880 --> 01:50:28,880
Speaker 1: remember the shock, right, We weren't there. Most of us

1986
01:50:28,960 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 1: weren't alive for that moment. That's listening here. Some of

1987
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:35,479
Speaker 1: you were, but most of us won't write at this

1988
01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:39,320
Speaker 1: point in time. Right, If no baby boomer in theory, right,

1989
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:41,840
Speaker 1: if you think about the entire baby boomer generation, the

1990
01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:44,280
Speaker 1: first ones were born in nineteen forty five, so in theory,

1991
01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:47,519
Speaker 1: none of them were alive, Right, That's how few people

1992
01:50:47,600 --> 01:50:50,559
Speaker 1: it's hard to believe that, But that's how few people.

1993
01:50:50,600 --> 01:50:53,080
Speaker 1: So we remember the tragedy, and of course it was

1994
01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:55,320
Speaker 1: a turning point in American history and in world history.

1995
01:50:56,160 --> 01:50:59,640
Speaker 1: But Pearl Harbor also is the greatest single demonstration of

1996
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:03,640
Speaker 1: the past of shared media in America life. What do

1997
01:51:03,680 --> 01:51:05,680
Speaker 1: I mean, Well, in nineteen forty one, more than eighty

1998
01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:08,920
Speaker 1: percent of American households had a radio, and for many

1999
01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 1: families that radio was the most valuable object in the house,

2000
01:51:12,600 --> 01:51:16,320
Speaker 1: the most valuable thing they owned that didn't have four

2001
01:51:16,320 --> 01:51:19,960
Speaker 1: wheels attached to it, obviously a car. And on the

2002
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,280
Speaker 1: morning of December seventh, the entire nation turned into that

2003
01:51:23,320 --> 01:51:26,839
Speaker 1: same medium at the same time. They heard the president,

2004
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:30,360
Speaker 1: they heard the bulletins, and of course they heard the

2005
01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:33,400
Speaker 1: war and you heard it with everyone else. It was

2006
01:51:33,479 --> 01:51:37,280
Speaker 1: a shared experience. Radio wasn't just dominant, it was the

2007
01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:40,880
Speaker 1: national hearth if you will, I mean literally right those

2008
01:51:40,920 --> 01:51:44,479
Speaker 1: fireside chats, we were all sitting around the radio to

2009
01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:47,400
Speaker 1: find out what our president knew. What can you could

2010
01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:51,280
Speaker 1: tell us? The country had one soundtrack, one voice, one

2011
01:51:51,320 --> 01:51:57,520
Speaker 1: shared experience. This is the height of communal media in America.

2012
01:51:57,680 --> 01:52:01,840
Speaker 1: But four years later, this week in history, we had

2013
01:52:01,840 --> 01:52:05,719
Speaker 1: our first crack in communal media. The first crack appeared,

2014
01:52:06,200 --> 01:52:08,400
Speaker 1: and it comes from a place no one was watching.

2015
01:52:09,120 --> 01:52:14,479
Speaker 1: On December one, nineteen forty five, the FCC quietly approved

2016
01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:18,639
Speaker 1: a massive expansion of what was called the FM broadcast band.

2017
01:52:18,760 --> 01:52:22,320
Speaker 1: To most Americans, this meant zip, but it would eventually

2018
01:52:22,439 --> 01:52:24,880
Speaker 1: change everything about what we listened to and how. A

2019
01:52:24,920 --> 01:52:27,639
Speaker 1: few things happened Because of this decision one, we ended

2020
01:52:27,720 --> 01:52:30,040
Speaker 1: up with more choice. At the time of this rule

2021
01:52:30,080 --> 01:52:32,640
Speaker 1: in the United States had just forty eight FM stations.

2022
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:36,600
Speaker 1: Within ten years, that number exploded over five hundred, a

2023
01:52:36,720 --> 01:52:40,639
Speaker 1: tenfold increase. Romber AM radio was the initial radio Suddenly

2024
01:52:40,800 --> 01:52:44,280
Speaker 1: radio wasn't one monolithic block. We actually had a menu

2025
01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:48,120
Speaker 1: of options, and there were a whole bunch of new formats.

2026
01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:51,760
Speaker 1: We had musical formats jazz, classical, album rock, adult, contemporary,

2027
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:56,440
Speaker 1: soft rock. FM created the space for niche music programming,

2028
01:52:56,720 --> 01:53:01,519
Speaker 1: the beginning of fragmentation, something were familiar with. Now, FM

2029
01:53:01,600 --> 01:53:03,839
Speaker 1: sound quality was so much better than AM that listeners

2030
01:53:03,840 --> 01:53:08,040
Speaker 1: began choosing stations based not on personality, but on clarity

2031
01:53:08,200 --> 01:53:12,280
Speaker 1: and fidelity. This was true in the car I grew

2032
01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:16,439
Speaker 1: up in my dad. My dad hated wanted to listen

2033
01:53:16,439 --> 01:53:18,719
Speaker 1: to some AM radio guys, but hated the sound quality,

2034
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:21,720
Speaker 1: so we ended up listening to more FM radio. By

2035
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:24,880
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, just before our next big milestone, which

2036
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to get to in a minute, FM overtook

2037
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:29,799
Speaker 1: AM for the first time. It commanded fifty eight percent

2038
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:33,280
Speaker 1: of all listening in the United States. The communal world

2039
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:35,920
Speaker 1: that had existed at the time of Pearl Harbor was

2040
01:53:35,960 --> 01:53:39,320
Speaker 1: already beginning to split. More stations, more formats, more choice.

2041
01:53:39,800 --> 01:53:42,600
Speaker 1: The era of everyone listening to the same thing was

2042
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:47,320
Speaker 1: slowly dying. But choice is one thing. Personal choice, boy.

2043
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:50,800
Speaker 1: That is something else, and that wouldn't arrive for decades

2044
01:53:51,479 --> 01:53:54,679
Speaker 1: in the form of a tiny, blue plastic cas set

2045
01:53:54,760 --> 01:53:59,880
Speaker 1: player with foam headphones. If Pearl Harbor was the height

2046
01:54:00,200 --> 01:54:04,240
Speaker 1: of shared listening and FM was the beginning of fragmentation,

2047
01:54:04,680 --> 01:54:07,679
Speaker 1: then the moment that truly ended the broadcast era arrived

2048
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:12,439
Speaker 1: in the summer of nineteen eighty when Sony quietly introduced

2049
01:54:12,439 --> 01:54:15,040
Speaker 1: the Walkman into the United States. There wasn't a big

2050
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:18,439
Speaker 1: launch event. There was no splashy TV campaign, no Steve

2051
01:54:18,560 --> 01:54:22,280
Speaker 1: job style reveal if you will. It had been introduced

2052
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:25,519
Speaker 1: about a year earlier in Japan, but for one hundred

2053
01:54:25,560 --> 01:54:28,120
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars, you two could have a personal stereo.

2054
01:54:28,280 --> 01:54:30,200
Speaker 1: It was about five hundred dollars in today's money, by

2055
01:54:30,200 --> 01:54:33,080
Speaker 1: the way, and it was just slipped onto American shells.

2056
01:54:33,400 --> 01:54:36,520
Speaker 1: And guess what, it sold out almost instantly. Sony expected

2057
01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:39,400
Speaker 1: to sell five thousand units a month. Instead, they sold

2058
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 1: over thirty thousand units in the first two months, a

2059
01:54:41,400 --> 01:54:44,680
Speaker 1: number that shocked even Sony's executives. And why because, for

2060
01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:50,200
Speaker 1: the first time ever, millions of Americans experienced private entertainments.

2061
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:53,480
Speaker 1: The Walkman wasn't a radio, it wasn't a sterio, it

2062
01:54:53,520 --> 01:54:59,040
Speaker 1: wasn't a boombox. It was a portable personal bubble, a soundtrack.

2063
01:54:59,120 --> 01:55:05,080
Speaker 1: You control, songs, you chose, moments, you curated. No DJ

2064
01:55:05,480 --> 01:55:10,040
Speaker 1: no commercials, no shared listening, no mass experience, just whatever

2065
01:55:10,080 --> 01:55:13,200
Speaker 1: you wanted to hear, whatever you put together. This was

2066
01:55:13,240 --> 01:55:17,600
Speaker 1: the beginning of a personalization revolution, one that arguably we're

2067
01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:20,160
Speaker 1: still in the middle of. And I'll tell you this,

2068
01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:23,640
Speaker 1: once Americans got a taste, that's something about it, right.

2069
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:26,360
Speaker 1: The more choices you give us, the more choices we demand.

2070
01:55:27,640 --> 01:55:29,680
Speaker 1: So that gives us And this is a moment that

2071
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:32,000
Speaker 1: I think people need to understand to understand the current

2072
01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:36,560
Speaker 1: media landscape. If you follow the death of radio, then

2073
01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:39,240
Speaker 1: you will understand what's happening right now at cable news

2074
01:55:39,240 --> 01:55:42,760
Speaker 1: and broadcast television. So the Walkman, it didn't kill radio overnight,

2075
01:55:43,760 --> 01:55:46,560
Speaker 1: and no, video didn't kill the radio star. Sorry, I

2076
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:50,200
Speaker 1: couldn't help myself. But just like streaming didn't kill cable overnight,

2077
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:54,920
Speaker 1: it all starts slowly, then it accelerates, then it becomes irreversible.

2078
01:55:55,200 --> 01:55:59,200
Speaker 1: So here's what happened. Familiar pattern. And again we're talking

2079
01:55:59,200 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 1: about FM radio. Young listeners fled first. Radio listening among

2080
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:04,920
Speaker 1: twelve to twenty four year olds fell twenty percent during

2081
01:56:04,960 --> 01:56:07,400
Speaker 1: the eighties, the exact decade when the Walkman took over.

2082
01:56:08,200 --> 01:56:10,400
Speaker 1: That's my decade, folks, of when I was that age.

2083
01:56:10,440 --> 01:56:17,760
Speaker 1: And yep, I I knew what time WSAG one of

2084
01:56:17,800 --> 01:56:20,080
Speaker 1: three point five in Miami was going to get the

2085
01:56:20,160 --> 01:56:22,640
Speaker 1: let out, which meant I was going to get thirty

2086
01:56:22,680 --> 01:56:26,200
Speaker 1: minutes of led Zeppelin songs, songs I had not owned yet,

2087
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:30,440
Speaker 1: and I wanted to tape them, so I would tape

2088
01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:34,080
Speaker 1: them and then have them magically for myself, right without

2089
01:56:34,080 --> 01:56:36,480
Speaker 1: evening to pay a dime. That was the other part

2090
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:39,160
Speaker 1: of this, right, that's what. That's the other thing parents mind.

2091
01:56:39,400 --> 01:56:41,120
Speaker 1: You know, my dad wasn't giving me the money. I

2092
01:56:41,120 --> 01:56:43,720
Speaker 1: had to do the Columbia house crap. And that's how

2093
01:56:43,760 --> 01:56:46,600
Speaker 1: I sort of built my own, my own music catalog.

2094
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:50,360
Speaker 1: So there we were. In the eighties, car listening completely changed.

2095
01:56:50,440 --> 01:56:53,920
Speaker 1: Cassette listening in cars went from almost nothing in nineteen

2096
01:56:53,960 --> 01:56:56,880
Speaker 1: eighty to forty percent of all in car listening by

2097
01:56:56,960 --> 01:57:00,240
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. Right like, it's like, what how up? And

2098
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:02,920
Speaker 1: we first had radio, and then suddenly we had CDs,

2099
01:57:03,600 --> 01:57:06,800
Speaker 1: and then suddenly now your phones connect. When was the

2100
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:12,040
Speaker 1: last time? Ask yourself that you used your car installed

2101
01:57:12,120 --> 01:57:14,320
Speaker 1: car radio to listen to something. I'm gonna guess if

2102
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:18,040
Speaker 1: you did, it's probably like me listening to a ballgame

2103
01:57:18,040 --> 01:57:21,080
Speaker 1: on the way home. Quickly because you've vaguely remembered where

2104
01:57:21,120 --> 01:57:25,320
Speaker 1: you heard play by play for whatever sports team you remembered.

2105
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:28,720
Speaker 1: But that might be it. But this is happening. This

2106
01:57:28,800 --> 01:57:31,760
Speaker 1: is how we lost FM radio. So four and ten

2107
01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:36,040
Speaker 1: moments spent in the car were suddenly not radio moments.

2108
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:40,000
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy nine, Arbitron track roughly a dozen major

2109
01:57:40,080 --> 01:57:42,240
Speaker 1: music formats, and by the late nineties there were more

2110
01:57:42,280 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 1: than forty. Radio was trying to adapt to a world

2111
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:47,879
Speaker 1: where audiences were no longer captive. They were trying to

2112
01:57:47,960 --> 01:57:52,600
Speaker 1: stave off this revolution, so they tried things like talk radio.

2113
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:55,520
Speaker 1: From nineteen eighty to the mid nineties, talk radio's audience

2114
01:57:55,560 --> 01:57:59,640
Speaker 1: grew three hundred percent. Music abandoned AM entirely, and AM

2115
01:57:59,680 --> 01:58:03,880
Speaker 1: clung to political talk as its remaining asset. It's exactly

2116
01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:06,560
Speaker 1: the same way broadcast TV today clings to live sports,

2117
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:12,480
Speaker 1: and cable news clings to talking heads. So Walkman, Discman,

2118
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:15,760
Speaker 1: MP three players, iPod, iPhone. By nineteen eighty six, Sony

2119
01:58:15,800 --> 01:58:17,720
Speaker 1: had sold almost ten million Walkmans. By the end of

2120
01:58:17,720 --> 01:58:19,840
Speaker 1: the product line, the Walkman finally had passed two hundred

2121
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:23,680
Speaker 1: twenty million units sold worldwide. Radio never recovered from what

2122
01:58:23,840 --> 01:58:26,560
Speaker 1: started in nineteen eighty. It aged a trank. It fractured,

2123
01:58:26,960 --> 01:58:30,280
Speaker 1: just like television is doing right now. So the modern

2124
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:33,440
Speaker 1: parallel TV is just radio two point zero. Everything we

2125
01:58:33,440 --> 01:58:36,320
Speaker 1: watched happened to radio after nineteen eighty is almost exactly

2126
01:58:36,400 --> 01:58:39,040
Speaker 1: what we're watching. It happened to cable and broadcast TV

2127
01:58:39,160 --> 01:58:44,360
Speaker 1: today right when unified, fragmented, personalized, and collapsed.

2128
01:58:44,400 --> 01:58:44,480
Speaker 2: Right.

2129
01:58:44,560 --> 01:58:49,200
Speaker 1: Let's compare Radio Pearl Harvard unifies, FM creates choice, Walkman

2130
01:58:49,360 --> 01:58:54,240
Speaker 1: personalizes radio collapses. Okay, nineteen forty one is the unifying moment.

2131
01:58:54,320 --> 01:58:56,640
Speaker 1: Forty five is the beginning of choice. Nineteen eighty is

2132
01:58:56,680 --> 01:59:00,760
Speaker 1: the Walkman. Nineties and two thousands radio dies television nine

2133
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:03,120
Speaker 1: to eleven unifies. Right, we all were watching the same

2134
01:59:03,120 --> 01:59:05,600
Speaker 1: news channels in two thousand and one. The DVR creates

2135
01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:09,480
Speaker 1: some choice in the two thousand. Smartphone personalizes TV collapses

2136
01:59:09,520 --> 01:59:12,640
Speaker 1: in the twenty twenties. Right, let's just go to here,

2137
01:59:12,760 --> 01:59:14,760
Speaker 1: cable households. In twenty eleven, we had one hundred and

2138
01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 1: five million households that had access to cable television. Today

2139
01:59:18,840 --> 01:59:21,680
Speaker 1: it's about sixty million. That's a forty five percent collapse

2140
01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:24,080
Speaker 1: in a decade, and I promise you more's coming. The

2141
01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:26,640
Speaker 1: broadcast TV media and viewer age in nineteen ninety three

2142
01:59:26,680 --> 01:59:29,640
Speaker 1: was forty one. Today it is nearly sixty. In cable

2143
01:59:29,720 --> 01:59:32,760
Speaker 1: news it is now it's seventy. For Americans under thirty,

2144
01:59:32,800 --> 01:59:37,520
Speaker 1: over sixty percent of all video consumption happens on smartphones. So,

2145
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:40,200
Speaker 1: just like the Walkman destroyed the idea of shared listening,

2146
01:59:40,840 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 1: the smartphone has destroyed the idea of shared viewing. We

2147
01:59:43,840 --> 01:59:46,000
Speaker 1: don't watch the same shows, we don't see the same ads,

2148
01:59:46,000 --> 01:59:47,600
Speaker 1: we don't get the same news, we don't share the

2149
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:51,400
Speaker 1: same reality. We're all walking around with our own private feeds.

2150
01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:53,880
Speaker 1: Just like the Walkman owners walked around with our own

2151
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:57,680
Speaker 1: private soundtracks. We now took it to everything else in life.

2152
01:59:57,720 --> 02:00:00,000
Speaker 1: So this week in history gives us a three step

2153
02:00:00,520 --> 02:00:02,800
Speaker 1: evolution of American media. You didn't see that. I was

2154
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:05,080
Speaker 1: going to start with Pearl Harbor and go to media

2155
02:00:05,160 --> 02:00:09,680
Speaker 1: route right December seventh, nineteen forty one. The only thing

2156
02:00:09,720 --> 02:00:14,560
Speaker 1: we have to fear is fear itself. It's a peak

2157
02:00:15,160 --> 02:00:22,080
Speaker 1: of shared communal broadcast experience, Americans united around one broadcast.

2158
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:25,440
Speaker 1: Nineteen forty five, we get FM expansion, by the way,

2159
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:28,320
Speaker 1: in this same week in history, and that's the beginning

2160
02:00:28,360 --> 02:00:33,200
Speaker 1: of choice of specialization, if you will, niches fragmentation. In

2161
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:36,120
Speaker 1: some ways, it is what FM radio was in nineteen

2162
02:00:36,160 --> 02:00:38,520
Speaker 1: forty five, is what cable TV was in the eighties.

2163
02:00:39,760 --> 02:00:41,520
Speaker 1: Then the summer of nineteen eighty we get the Walkman,

2164
02:00:41,720 --> 02:00:45,720
Speaker 1: and it's the birth of full on personalized media. And

2165
02:00:45,760 --> 02:00:49,640
Speaker 1: once we put those foam headphones on, we've never really

2166
02:00:49,680 --> 02:00:53,720
Speaker 1: taken them off. We're now always at least got one

2167
02:00:54,240 --> 02:00:59,440
Speaker 1: year with this our personalization eras began. Radio crack, television's cracking,

2168
02:01:00,040 --> 02:01:03,440
Speaker 1: and the entire media environment is built around the logic

2169
02:01:03,480 --> 02:01:08,800
Speaker 1: of the walkman, my feed, my soundtrack, my show, my news.

2170
02:01:09,440 --> 02:01:12,960
Speaker 1: So there you have it. Pearl Harbor. This week in

2171
02:01:13,080 --> 02:01:18,800
Speaker 1: history is Pearl Harbor and not an insignificant moment. But

2172
02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:22,240
Speaker 1: what is interesting is when you think about the moment

2173
02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:27,040
Speaker 1: through the lens of media and what nineteen forty one

2174
02:01:27,240 --> 02:01:32,320
Speaker 1: was and where we are today. It has been one giant,

2175
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:38,720
Speaker 1: fast revolution and how we consume content in this in

2176
02:01:38,920 --> 02:01:41,640
Speaker 1: not just this country, in the world. So there you go.

2177
02:01:42,640 --> 02:01:43,480
Speaker 1: There's your moment in the.

2178
02:01:43,400 --> 02:01:43,880
Speaker 2: Time of show.

2179
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:54,600
Speaker 1: All right, let's get in a few questions. Ask Chuck

2180
02:01:57,640 --> 02:01:59,360
Speaker 1: it's going to do two or three because I, let's

2181
02:01:59,360 --> 02:02:01,760
Speaker 1: just say, I do a lot to say about about

2182
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:05,800
Speaker 1: college football. This one comes from Aaron from Cincinnati. Hey, check,

2183
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:08,160
Speaker 1: I really enjoy the author segments, especially a recent feature

2184
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:10,480
Speaker 1: on the Barn. It's one of the most powerful books

2185
02:02:10,480 --> 02:02:12,080
Speaker 1: I've read in a long time. Thanks for sharing what

2186
02:02:12,120 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 1: you're reading, and please keep highlighting your favorites. I also

2187
02:02:14,440 --> 02:02:16,280
Speaker 1: learn a lot from the sports discussions, even as a

2188
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:18,320
Speaker 1: non sports fan. They help me better understand the world

2189
02:02:18,320 --> 02:02:21,720
Speaker 1: around me. Great job on Election Night special and Happy Thanksgiving. Wow,

2190
02:02:21,880 --> 02:02:25,040
Speaker 1: there's no question in there, but hey, who doesn't want

2191
02:02:25,080 --> 02:02:30,080
Speaker 1: to read some like reinforcing mail that, Hey, we at

2192
02:02:30,160 --> 02:02:33,080
Speaker 1: least have one person in our audience that appreciates what

2193
02:02:33,120 --> 02:02:35,320
Speaker 1: we're doing. My whole goal home, it's about one, one

2194
02:02:35,360 --> 02:02:37,880
Speaker 1: person at a time. Aaron, in all seriousness, thank you,

2195
02:02:37,960 --> 02:02:42,880
Speaker 1: And that is something that I'm I'm trying to look

2196
02:02:43,040 --> 02:02:48,360
Speaker 1: I know I'm always going to have a political focus

2197
02:02:48,520 --> 02:02:50,960
Speaker 1: is too strong of a word, A sort of a

2198
02:02:51,080 --> 02:02:57,240
Speaker 1: political you know, I worked in politics or in political

2199
02:02:57,280 --> 02:03:00,200
Speaker 1: media professionally for so long of it, so that's he's

2200
02:03:00,240 --> 02:03:02,200
Speaker 1: going to be the dominant part of that conversation. But

2201
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:04,560
Speaker 1: one of the things that I want to be better

2202
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:07,680
Speaker 1: about with this podcast is sort of sharing. You know,

2203
02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:10,960
Speaker 1: I do, even my pop culture consumption in some ways

2204
02:03:10,960 --> 02:03:15,720
Speaker 1: I do see sometimes through the prism of politics, and

2205
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:18,600
Speaker 1: I know I'm not alone in that, so I will

2206
02:03:18,640 --> 02:03:21,720
Speaker 1: continue to at least share what I'm reading, what I'm watching.

2207
02:03:24,120 --> 02:03:25,960
Speaker 1: There's a couple of things I'm watching right now that

2208
02:03:26,280 --> 02:03:28,760
Speaker 1: I'll admit I'm still not sure how I feel about it.

2209
02:03:28,800 --> 02:03:32,760
Speaker 1: The biggest one is Pluribus. I don't even know how

2210
02:03:32,800 --> 02:03:36,360
Speaker 1: I would describe this to somebody if they were asking me, well, hey,

2211
02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:38,040
Speaker 1: what are you watching now while I'm watching this show

2212
02:03:38,080 --> 02:03:40,720
Speaker 1: on Apple called Pluribus. It's by the guy who did

2213
02:03:40,760 --> 02:03:44,040
Speaker 1: Breaking Bad and Better At Call Saul, and I loved

2214
02:03:44,120 --> 02:03:48,000
Speaker 1: those shows, so I'm trusting him on this one, mister Gilligan.

2215
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:52,360
Speaker 1: But man, this is one of those. It's like, it

2216
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:59,400
Speaker 1: feels as if Vince Gilligan took Breaking Bad, Better Call

2217
02:03:59,520 --> 02:04:07,120
Speaker 1: Saul and ran it through and somehow merged it with

2218
02:04:10,440 --> 02:04:13,200
Speaker 1: merged it with that other Apple show where God, I'm

2219
02:04:13,280 --> 02:04:16,040
Speaker 1: drawing a blank on that Apple show where we're a

2220
02:04:16,120 --> 02:04:20,960
Speaker 1: severed sorry Severance. I was about to you caught me

2221
02:04:21,000 --> 02:04:23,240
Speaker 1: in or you caught the editing process. I was about

2222
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:26,360
Speaker 1: to signal that, hey, we better edit this out, but

2223
02:04:26,360 --> 02:04:27,920
Speaker 1: I won't edit this out anyway. I was drawing a

2224
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:30,360
Speaker 1: blank on the name of the show Severance. But it's

2225
02:04:30,400 --> 02:04:33,640
Speaker 1: I think that's what this feels like. It's like, it's

2226
02:04:33,680 --> 02:04:36,200
Speaker 1: like if you took the plot line of Severance, the

2227
02:04:36,240 --> 02:04:39,120
Speaker 1: plot line the plot lines with Breaking Bad and Better

2228
02:04:39,120 --> 02:04:43,280
Speaker 1: Call Solomn, put them all together, you might get this show.

2229
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:46,320
Speaker 1: I think I say that I don't think I'm through

2230
02:04:46,360 --> 02:04:50,760
Speaker 1: it enough to know for sure what the hell I've

2231
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:54,800
Speaker 1: gotten into, but I can't wait to watch the next episode,

2232
02:04:54,840 --> 02:04:57,400
Speaker 1: I hopefully admit that. And I am doing a little

2233
02:04:57,400 --> 02:05:01,680
Speaker 1: stranger things also in the moment. So there's that. And

2234
02:05:01,760 --> 02:05:04,400
Speaker 1: I did promise that in the substack next week. By

2235
02:05:04,440 --> 02:05:07,120
Speaker 1: the way, it's going to be some reading recommendations and

2236
02:05:07,200 --> 02:05:11,680
Speaker 1: podcasts recommendations for all things having to do with the

2237
02:05:11,720 --> 02:05:13,880
Speaker 1: fall of the Ottoman Empire and World War One through

2238
02:05:13,920 --> 02:05:15,680
Speaker 1: the prism of the Middle East rather than just through

2239
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:17,960
Speaker 1: the prism of Germany. All right. Next question comes from

2240
02:05:18,000 --> 02:05:20,320
Speaker 1: Sarah Kay and Lansing, Michigan. Should I say, Chuck. I'm

2241
02:05:20,320 --> 02:05:23,120
Speaker 1: a middle school math teacher working to instill values like kindness, respect,

2242
02:05:23,120 --> 02:05:25,960
Speaker 1: and civil disagreement, but today's political leaders on both sides

2243
02:05:26,000 --> 02:05:28,360
Speaker 1: often model the opposite, undermining these norms in public. At

2244
02:05:28,400 --> 02:05:30,880
Speaker 1: least me wondering, it's just how we're expected to lead

2245
02:05:31,160 --> 02:05:33,680
Speaker 1: and live. Now is our hope will return to respectful

2246
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:38,360
Speaker 1: bipartisan discourse? Kind regards Sarah, this sort of I'm kind

2247
02:05:38,400 --> 02:05:42,200
Speaker 1: of talking about this. The President chose this tragic moment

2248
02:05:42,320 --> 02:05:47,360
Speaker 1: that befell these two young National guardsmen and he turned

2249
02:05:47,360 --> 02:05:50,760
Speaker 1: it into a political exercise and weaponized it for political purposes.

2250
02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:53,480
Speaker 1: When the right thing to do in a moment like

2251
02:05:53,520 --> 02:05:55,800
Speaker 1: this is you set politics aside and you had a

2252
02:05:55,880 --> 02:05:58,440
Speaker 1: unifying moment. You know, maybe you learn a little bit

2253
02:05:58,440 --> 02:06:00,200
Speaker 1: more about these victims. With a little bit more, you know,

2254
02:06:00,240 --> 02:06:02,320
Speaker 1: find out what Let's find out what the cause of

2255
02:06:02,360 --> 02:06:04,960
Speaker 1: the shooting was. Let's let's let's get all of the

2256
02:06:05,040 --> 02:06:09,600
Speaker 1: facts before we immediately try to assess who gets political

2257
02:06:09,760 --> 02:06:14,880
Speaker 1: gain and who gets political demerits. And there's no doubt

2258
02:06:14,960 --> 02:06:19,280
Speaker 1: right this is you know, it's one of those things.

2259
02:06:19,320 --> 02:06:22,880
Speaker 1: Is that Trump's fault or is Trump the result of

2260
02:06:22,960 --> 02:06:27,400
Speaker 1: an era that is, you know, the coarseness of social

2261
02:06:27,440 --> 02:06:32,800
Speaker 1: media has become sort of made coarseness more acceptable in

2262
02:06:32,840 --> 02:06:36,240
Speaker 1: our everyday lives. I don't know quite how to put it,

2263
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:38,360
Speaker 1: but but we definitely are in one of these moments

2264
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:40,960
Speaker 1: where we don't have empathy anymore. And it goes back

2265
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:42,840
Speaker 1: to Donald Trump doesn't have empathy. It doesn't mean the

2266
02:06:42,840 --> 02:06:46,440
Speaker 1: rest of us don't have to have empathy. And you know,

2267
02:06:46,480 --> 02:06:51,400
Speaker 1: whatever broken childhood issues that Donald Trump's brain has been

2268
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:57,800
Speaker 1: messed with shouldn't impact how we raise the next generation

2269
02:06:57,920 --> 02:07:00,920
Speaker 1: of Americans in this country, and unfortun I do think

2270
02:07:00,960 --> 02:07:03,920
Speaker 1: that you know, this gets this gets it to something

2271
02:07:03,960 --> 02:07:07,520
Speaker 1: I've been concerned about for some time, that that that

2272
02:07:07,960 --> 02:07:10,480
Speaker 1: you know, we the first half of the Trump era

2273
02:07:11,200 --> 02:07:14,560
Speaker 1: was defined by a whole group of people, regardless of ideology,

2274
02:07:14,720 --> 02:07:18,080
Speaker 1: who said no, no, no, no, characters should count that.

2275
02:07:18,240 --> 02:07:21,080
Speaker 1: You know, we should have high morals, high ethics, and

2276
02:07:21,120 --> 02:07:24,280
Speaker 1: good character in our political leaders. And we saw a

2277
02:07:24,320 --> 02:07:29,960
Speaker 1: group of people that were uncomfortable with the with the

2278
02:07:29,960 --> 02:07:31,640
Speaker 1: the bad character of Trump. I don't know else to

2279
02:07:31,680 --> 02:07:34,000
Speaker 1: describe it as right, He's just a bad guy. He's

2280
02:07:34,040 --> 02:07:36,040
Speaker 1: got bad you know, he's amral. I don't know if

2281
02:07:36,040 --> 02:07:37,920
Speaker 1: he's immoral. I know he's amore. I don't think he

2282
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:41,240
Speaker 1: cares what right and wrong is. It's about whether he

2283
02:07:41,320 --> 02:07:46,800
Speaker 1: benefits or not. He's uber transactional to the point of

2284
02:07:47,480 --> 02:07:50,440
Speaker 1: right it. You know, he puts everybody else second to

2285
02:07:51,440 --> 02:07:56,600
Speaker 1: his benefit. If that is considered how to succeed in politics,

2286
02:07:56,600 --> 02:07:58,840
Speaker 1: then you're only going to have people emulate even more

2287
02:07:59,240 --> 02:08:03,960
Speaker 1: from all political sides, not just the maga side of things.

2288
02:08:04,720 --> 02:08:08,320
Speaker 1: And you know we've seen right this sort of course rhetoric. Now,

2289
02:08:09,240 --> 02:08:11,680
Speaker 1: at first it's been like, well, let's curse more. If

2290
02:08:11,680 --> 02:08:14,839
Speaker 1: we just drop the F bomb, we'll show we can

2291
02:08:15,520 --> 02:08:18,040
Speaker 1: tract real people. But there's this perception that somehow work

2292
02:08:18,040 --> 02:08:23,520
Speaker 1: in people who are living paycheck to paycheck haven't don't

2293
02:08:23,520 --> 02:08:26,560
Speaker 1: have morals or ethics, or don't care about morals and ethics.

2294
02:08:27,040 --> 02:08:29,520
Speaker 1: That's not That wasn't my experience growing up as a

2295
02:08:29,520 --> 02:08:33,280
Speaker 1: working class kid. That wasn't my experience with other working

2296
02:08:33,320 --> 02:08:37,560
Speaker 1: class families that I spent time with. If anything, there

2297
02:08:37,640 --> 02:08:40,320
Speaker 1: was more morals and more ethics that you know, Hey,

2298
02:08:40,320 --> 02:08:43,280
Speaker 1: you've got to that stuff. You know, what you don't

2299
02:08:43,280 --> 02:08:46,160
Speaker 1: have in wealth, you have in your character. Right, nobody

2300
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:54,080
Speaker 1: can buy character. So it's a you know, let's see

2301
02:08:54,080 --> 02:08:57,320
Speaker 1: what we do. In twenty eight I had some hope

2302
02:08:57,360 --> 02:09:00,760
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden could be a better moral authority for

2303
02:09:00,760 --> 02:09:02,520
Speaker 1: this country, and he turned out to be a failure. Now,

2304
02:09:02,520 --> 02:09:04,440
Speaker 1: maybe a younger version of Joe Biden might have been

2305
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:07,840
Speaker 1: able to pull this off, but you know, he also

2306
02:09:07,920 --> 02:09:10,000
Speaker 1: had his own blind spots on morals and ethics when

2307
02:09:10,000 --> 02:09:13,120
Speaker 1: it comes to his family. So I don't know who

2308
02:09:13,120 --> 02:09:16,160
Speaker 1: the next you know, but I guess I have some

2309
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:18,560
Speaker 1: you know, I'll be curious to see what the voters

2310
02:09:18,600 --> 02:09:22,280
Speaker 1: prioritize right. In seventy six, the voters really wanted somebody

2311
02:09:22,800 --> 02:09:25,840
Speaker 1: who was moral and ethical, and we went with Jimmy Carter,

2312
02:09:25,880 --> 02:09:27,560
Speaker 1: who turned out not to be a very good manager.

2313
02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:32,880
Speaker 1: He was highly moral, highly ethical. To this day, it

2314
02:09:32,960 --> 02:09:37,640
Speaker 1: is interesting you will have people simultaneously saying that he

2315
02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:39,040
Speaker 1: was a man of high character and he was a

2316
02:09:39,080 --> 02:09:43,880
Speaker 1: bad president, and look, he was a bit of a micromanager.

2317
02:09:43,920 --> 02:09:45,760
Speaker 1: And what if I told you he fired his entire

2318
02:09:45,800 --> 02:09:48,200
Speaker 1: cabinet one day? He'd be like, oh, that's kind of

2319
02:09:48,280 --> 02:09:51,600
Speaker 1: unhinged too. But because he had to high morals and

2320
02:09:51,680 --> 02:09:53,960
Speaker 1: high character in some ways, he would get more benefit

2321
02:09:54,000 --> 02:09:57,440
Speaker 1: of the doubt than others would have given him. I'm

2322
02:09:57,560 --> 02:10:02,400
Speaker 1: very curious to see in twenty eight whether Democrats stick

2323
02:10:02,480 --> 02:10:05,240
Speaker 1: to wanting to try to find an adult as their

2324
02:10:05,440 --> 02:10:09,880
Speaker 1: party leader, or whether they want a combatant a la Trump,

2325
02:10:10,080 --> 02:10:15,400
Speaker 1: but just a liberal version of it. Right, And I

2326
02:10:15,920 --> 02:10:18,200
Speaker 1: think it's an open question. I would say, right now,

2327
02:10:18,520 --> 02:10:21,800
Speaker 1: I see a democratic party that's more interested in fighting

2328
02:10:21,840 --> 02:10:25,040
Speaker 1: fire with fire than I do seeing a democratic party

2329
02:10:25,040 --> 02:10:32,120
Speaker 1: that wants to set a higher bar for morals and ethics. Now, look,

2330
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:35,080
Speaker 1: I think we as an electorate are pretty cynical about

2331
02:10:35,080 --> 02:10:38,520
Speaker 1: morals and ethics right now and assume that nobody has them.

2332
02:10:39,280 --> 02:10:41,520
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for them, and

2333
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:45,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to legislate for them. So,

2334
02:10:45,640 --> 02:10:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, I guess I would say this, Sarah, Let's

2335
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:53,160
Speaker 1: not give up quite yet on the American electorate for

2336
02:10:53,320 --> 02:10:59,320
Speaker 1: not sort of demanding better. Let's see what happens in

2337
02:10:59,400 --> 02:11:01,680
Speaker 1: the primaries, and let's see if we start to hold

2338
02:11:01,760 --> 02:11:05,120
Speaker 1: other people to higher standards than what we held Donald

2339
02:11:05,160 --> 02:11:12,440
Speaker 1: Trump to do. Two more questions. This next one comes

2340
02:11:12,480 --> 02:11:14,520
Speaker 1: from Chip from Colora Springs. Hey, check, I'm really enjoying

2341
02:11:14,560 --> 02:11:16,840
Speaker 1: the long form podcast. Do you think the US presidency

2342
02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:20,880
Speaker 1: concentrates concentrates too much responsibility into one person serving as

2343
02:11:20,880 --> 02:11:23,000
Speaker 1: executive Commander in chief, head of state, and party leader.

2344
02:11:23,120 --> 02:11:27,160
Speaker 1: Should we consider distributing those roles to prevent further power consolidation? Also,

2345
02:11:27,240 --> 02:11:29,240
Speaker 1: thanks for the boiler Maker shoutouts this season, though I'm

2346
02:11:29,280 --> 02:11:34,760
Speaker 1: not optimistic about the bucket game. Yeah, the old oaken

2347
02:11:34,880 --> 02:11:39,000
Speaker 1: bucket game to an Indiana and Purdue. I did something

2348
02:11:39,040 --> 02:11:42,640
Speaker 1: that I've done all year long, and it is nothing

2349
02:11:42,760 --> 02:11:46,120
Speaker 1: costs me nothing but cash. And that is I have

2350
02:11:46,200 --> 02:11:50,160
Speaker 1: faded the Hoosiers in some of these football games against

2351
02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:53,760
Speaker 1: Big ten teams in cold weather, assuming that they wouldn't

2352
02:11:53,800 --> 02:11:56,600
Speaker 1: pile it on. Sure enough? I thought, for sure, well,

2353
02:11:56,600 --> 02:11:58,920
Speaker 1: they're not covering twenty nine and a half this week,

2354
02:11:58,960 --> 02:12:01,880
Speaker 1: are they? Man? When am I going to learn?

2355
02:12:02,040 --> 02:12:02,200
Speaker 2: Right?

2356
02:12:02,280 --> 02:12:04,680
Speaker 1: There are two things. There are two truths this year

2357
02:12:04,720 --> 02:12:08,440
Speaker 1: for my betting prowess. One stop betting in any games

2358
02:12:08,440 --> 02:12:12,000
Speaker 1: involving the Atlanta Falcons and two, stop trying to fade

2359
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:15,560
Speaker 1: the Indana Hoosiers. I think I am. I swear to God,

2360
02:12:15,600 --> 02:12:19,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying it out loud to prevent myself from doing vote.

2361
02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:22,840
Speaker 1: But let's talk about your more serious question, and that

2362
02:12:23,000 --> 02:12:28,240
Speaker 1: was with presidential power. You know this is it is

2363
02:12:28,280 --> 02:12:32,920
Speaker 1: not as if we our founders, gave us the tools

2364
02:12:33,160 --> 02:12:36,720
Speaker 1: to make sure we didn't do this, and it is

2365
02:12:36,760 --> 02:12:39,960
Speaker 1: a poor management. Two things that have happened, right. You've

2366
02:12:39,960 --> 02:12:44,520
Speaker 1: had a legislative branch that is been afraid of taking

2367
02:12:44,640 --> 02:12:49,360
Speaker 1: votes and afraid of being specific on legislation for fear

2368
02:12:49,400 --> 02:12:52,560
Speaker 1: they couldn't get the legislation passed, so they create ambiguity

2369
02:12:52,640 --> 02:12:55,280
Speaker 1: and the laws that they create. And when you create

2370
02:12:55,360 --> 02:12:59,040
Speaker 1: ambiguity and essentially allow the administration straight of state to

2371
02:12:59,040 --> 02:13:02,080
Speaker 1: make these decisions on how to execute a law that

2372
02:13:02,120 --> 02:13:06,879
Speaker 1: Congress passes. Well, all you've done is empowered the executive

2373
02:13:06,920 --> 02:13:11,040
Speaker 1: branch to essentially accumulate more authority of how laws are executed.

2374
02:13:11,680 --> 02:13:15,240
Speaker 1: So I go back to that because that is source

2375
02:13:15,440 --> 02:13:18,320
Speaker 1: one of our problems. Source two is a judiciary branch

2376
02:13:19,240 --> 02:13:22,680
Speaker 1: that continues to say, well, hey, if Congress doesntlike it,

2377
02:13:22,720 --> 02:13:25,200
Speaker 1: they can pass a lot to undo it. And until

2378
02:13:25,240 --> 02:13:30,240
Speaker 1: they do, you do have a judiciary that, at least

2379
02:13:30,400 --> 02:13:38,200
Speaker 1: amongst Republican appointees, has been filled with legal scholars who

2380
02:13:38,240 --> 02:13:42,120
Speaker 1: are now judges who buy into this unified executive theory

2381
02:13:42,440 --> 02:13:46,000
Speaker 1: business who want to see a stronger executive branch. So

2382
02:13:46,320 --> 02:13:51,360
Speaker 1: essentially side anytime there is a dispute between branches of government,

2383
02:13:51,760 --> 02:13:54,160
Speaker 1: essentially give the benefit of the doubt to the executive.

2384
02:13:55,720 --> 02:13:58,600
Speaker 1: I think one hundred percent we've concentrated too much power

2385
02:13:58,600 --> 02:14:01,800
Speaker 1: to the executive. It was never the intent. We were

2386
02:14:01,800 --> 02:14:05,320
Speaker 1: supposed to have a balanced that the legislative branch was

2387
02:14:05,320 --> 02:14:08,240
Speaker 1: supposed to be equally as powerful as the executive branch,

2388
02:14:08,280 --> 02:14:10,520
Speaker 1: and there was a real assumption that we would essentially

2389
02:14:10,560 --> 02:14:14,920
Speaker 1: have a legislative branch that felt almost as powerful as

2390
02:14:14,920 --> 02:14:20,960
Speaker 1: a parliamentary system with a presidency that could serve the

2391
02:14:21,040 --> 02:14:23,560
Speaker 1: role as commander in chief and sort of how to

2392
02:14:23,640 --> 02:14:26,320
Speaker 1: execute laws, to essentially be a check to make sure

2393
02:14:26,320 --> 02:14:29,600
Speaker 1: the legislative branch didn't try to accumulate too much power,

2394
02:14:30,200 --> 02:14:32,640
Speaker 1: and instead, over nearly two hundred and fifty years, we've

2395
02:14:32,720 --> 02:14:38,560
Speaker 1: essentially watched the legislative branch hand power over to the presidency. Now,

2396
02:14:38,600 --> 02:14:42,200
Speaker 1: part of that, I could and this goes a little

2397
02:14:42,240 --> 02:14:45,680
Speaker 1: bit to my toodcast time machine topic, I actually could

2398
02:14:45,720 --> 02:14:47,560
Speaker 1: blame the media for this a little bit. And when

2399
02:14:47,560 --> 02:14:51,280
Speaker 1: I say the media, it's just the fact that we

2400
02:14:51,320 --> 02:14:56,800
Speaker 1: are the mass media in general always is looking for

2401
02:14:56,840 --> 02:15:01,680
Speaker 1: a singular figure to to solve a problem or a

2402
02:15:01,720 --> 02:15:07,160
Speaker 1: singular figure to execute a solution, and we have just

2403
02:15:07,280 --> 02:15:11,840
Speaker 1: if you think about it, you know, the presidency. You know,

2404
02:15:11,880 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 1: as soon as mass media got powerful, starting with radio,

2405
02:15:16,240 --> 02:15:20,360
Speaker 1: our presidents got more powerful. FDR was a powerful president,

2406
02:15:20,640 --> 02:15:23,200
Speaker 1: but before that, we didn't have a really powerful president

2407
02:15:23,240 --> 02:15:26,800
Speaker 1: really until that went back to Lincoln, and that was

2408
02:15:26,880 --> 02:15:30,920
Speaker 1: due to essentially powers he had, you know, suspending the

2409
02:15:30,920 --> 02:15:32,720
Speaker 1: Constitution a couple of times we were in the middle

2410
02:15:32,720 --> 02:15:37,120
Speaker 1: of a war, but ever since FDR, each president has

2411
02:15:37,320 --> 02:15:40,960
Speaker 1: has sort of found a way to accumulate more power.

2412
02:15:41,680 --> 02:15:43,760
Speaker 1: And I just throw it out there as a question.

2413
02:15:44,320 --> 02:15:46,919
Speaker 1: Have we as a society, because we make the president

2414
02:15:46,960 --> 02:15:50,720
Speaker 1: the singular figure, we certainly set the expectation that the

2415
02:15:50,720 --> 02:15:54,440
Speaker 1: presidency themselves is more likely to solve problems than the

2416
02:15:54,520 --> 02:15:57,600
Speaker 1: legislative branch. We don't, and we do a terrible job

2417
02:15:57,680 --> 02:16:02,280
Speaker 1: collectively in mass media educating the public that actually it's

2418
02:16:02,320 --> 02:16:04,680
Speaker 1: the legislative branch that is the place that this needs

2419
02:16:04,720 --> 02:16:07,960
Speaker 1: to be happening, and that they're the reason why we

2420
02:16:08,360 --> 02:16:13,120
Speaker 1: have this problem. And I think that that's I just

2421
02:16:13,160 --> 02:16:17,080
Speaker 1: would I would throw that out there as one of

2422
02:16:17,560 --> 02:16:19,760
Speaker 1: one of the reasons of how we got to this

2423
02:16:21,640 --> 02:16:25,000
Speaker 1: too powerful executive. All right, last question comes from Mark

2424
02:16:25,040 --> 02:16:27,600
Speaker 1: d from Seattle, Washington. Hey, Chuck, never missed the check todcast,

2425
02:16:27,640 --> 02:16:29,480
Speaker 1: and so glad you went into Pennant. Thank you. In

2426
02:16:29,560 --> 02:16:31,720
Speaker 1: light of Marjorie Taylor Green's resignation and the question about

2427
02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:34,560
Speaker 1: her position pension, you mentioned she's only receiving the minimumount,

2428
02:16:34,600 --> 02:16:36,680
Speaker 1: I began wondering, what are the benefits Congress receets after

2429
02:16:36,680 --> 02:16:38,680
Speaker 1: five years of service? What is the maximum that can

2430
02:16:39,360 --> 02:16:41,840
Speaker 1: can receive While we're on the subject, what healthcare coverage

2431
02:16:41,879 --> 02:16:44,640
Speaker 1: do they get? Are they on Obamacare or something else?

2432
02:16:44,680 --> 02:16:47,800
Speaker 1: Big fan? All right, Mark, I am giving you the

2433
02:16:47,840 --> 02:16:50,520
Speaker 1: best answer I can give you, and this is for

2434
02:16:50,640 --> 02:16:55,480
Speaker 1: people elected in nineteen eighty four or later. So this

2435
02:16:55,680 --> 02:17:02,720
Speaker 1: really now does pretty much handle everybody in Congress, I

2436
02:17:02,720 --> 02:17:06,440
Speaker 1: think except Chuck Grassley at this point, who was elected

2437
02:17:06,440 --> 02:17:11,199
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty But it is a far less generous

2438
02:17:11,240 --> 02:17:13,279
Speaker 1: system than you might agree. So this is the federal

2439
02:17:13,280 --> 02:17:15,760
Speaker 1: employee's retirement system, and this is what Congress is a

2440
02:17:15,760 --> 02:17:19,160
Speaker 1: part of. So this is how it works. Okay, members

2441
02:17:19,560 --> 02:17:23,080
Speaker 1: of Congress accrew one point seven percent of their highest

2442
02:17:23,120 --> 02:17:26,640
Speaker 1: three years of salary for each of the first twenty years,

2443
02:17:26,640 --> 02:17:28,520
Speaker 1: and then it's one percent per year for each year

2444
02:17:28,560 --> 02:17:32,680
Speaker 1: after twenty so, and they also get solid security. There's

2445
02:17:32,720 --> 02:17:35,720
Speaker 1: also a four to one K matching plan of five percent.

2446
02:17:35,840 --> 02:17:37,240
Speaker 1: I mean, this is where you're saying, they're going, Wow,

2447
02:17:37,240 --> 02:17:39,240
Speaker 1: they get solid security and a four to one K

2448
02:17:39,680 --> 02:17:43,880
Speaker 1: and a pension. But there's a bit of a pension cap.

2449
02:17:45,480 --> 02:17:48,800
Speaker 1: There's no explicit eighty percent statutory cap, but the math

2450
02:17:49,280 --> 02:17:53,119
Speaker 1: makes the ceiling effectively pretty low. So twenty years at

2451
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:56,000
Speaker 1: one point seven percent is thirty four percent of the salary.

2452
02:17:56,160 --> 02:17:59,320
Speaker 1: Twenty more years plus one percent is twenty percent. So essentially,

2453
02:18:00,160 --> 02:18:03,000
Speaker 1: in any given year, your pension is going to be

2454
02:18:03,040 --> 02:18:06,120
Speaker 1: no more than fifty four percent of your highest three

2455
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:10,720
Speaker 1: year of salary as a member of Congress, and that's

2456
02:18:10,760 --> 02:18:17,080
Speaker 1: after forty years of service in the government. So let's

2457
02:18:17,080 --> 02:18:19,160
Speaker 1: shall we say very few get there. So for instance,

2458
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:21,840
Speaker 1: a member with twelve years of service retiring at age

2459
02:18:21,879 --> 02:18:25,360
Speaker 1: sixty two, we'll receive thirty to forty thousand dollars per year.

2460
02:18:25,800 --> 02:18:29,480
Speaker 1: That ain't jump change, but that's about what many people

2461
02:18:29,520 --> 02:18:32,680
Speaker 1: get on Social Security. A member with twenty years retiring

2462
02:18:32,800 --> 02:18:34,960
Speaker 1: at or after sixty two would get forty to fifty

2463
02:18:35,000 --> 02:18:37,680
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars per year. A member with thirty years

2464
02:18:37,760 --> 02:18:40,440
Speaker 1: sixty to seventy five thousand dollars per year, and the

2465
02:18:40,560 --> 02:18:43,439
Speaker 1: rare member with thirty five to fifty years of experience

2466
02:18:43,840 --> 02:18:47,120
Speaker 1: could get up to eighty to ninety percent, but not

2467
02:18:48,520 --> 02:18:51,440
Speaker 1: the full salary. So even the longest serving members do

2468
02:18:51,520 --> 02:18:53,560
Speaker 1: not get one hundred and seventy four thousand dollars a

2469
02:18:53,680 --> 02:18:55,640
Speaker 1: year in a pension, okay, which is what the current

2470
02:18:55,680 --> 02:19:01,080
Speaker 1: salary is, and they're mathematically no way for them to

2471
02:19:01,120 --> 02:19:03,920
Speaker 1: mathematically ever get there. A member has to serve five

2472
02:19:03,959 --> 02:19:07,080
Speaker 1: years to invest in a pension, and the minimum retirement

2473
02:19:07,120 --> 02:19:11,600
Speaker 1: age varies somewhere fifty seven to sixty two. So now, look,

2474
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:14,959
Speaker 1: there was the old congressional system before it was redone.

2475
02:19:15,320 --> 02:19:17,480
Speaker 1: There were a handful of longtime members of Congress that

2476
02:19:17,520 --> 02:19:20,800
Speaker 1: got eighty percent of their pay and a lot of

2477
02:19:20,840 --> 02:19:23,920
Speaker 1: talk radio and chain emails in the nineties in the

2478
02:19:23,959 --> 02:19:30,080
Speaker 1: two thousands exaggerated many of those benefits. But even since

2479
02:19:30,120 --> 02:19:32,160
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, members have had to contribute more of their

2480
02:19:32,200 --> 02:19:35,000
Speaker 1: own money to their pensions and the benefits are smaller.

2481
02:19:35,000 --> 02:19:38,359
Speaker 1: Look the point of the Marjorie Taylor Green pension issues.

2482
02:19:38,480 --> 02:19:40,240
Speaker 1: I know that people got all excited about it, but

2483
02:19:40,280 --> 02:19:42,560
Speaker 1: when you actually dig into the numbers, this is not

2484
02:19:42,920 --> 02:19:47,720
Speaker 1: trust me, the unpopularity of Congress has already forced previous

2485
02:19:47,760 --> 02:19:51,920
Speaker 1: Congresses to amend this pension situation so that it really

2486
02:19:51,959 --> 02:19:55,760
Speaker 1: is yes, there's a pension, but it's not a how

2487
02:19:55,760 --> 02:20:01,400
Speaker 1: to get rich pension. It is arguably reasonable amount of

2488
02:20:01,440 --> 02:20:05,520
Speaker 1: money and a reasonable pension in exchange for the public service.

2489
02:20:12,240 --> 02:20:16,000
Speaker 1: All right, that was the reasonable, and now to the unreasonable,

2490
02:20:17,240 --> 02:20:19,920
Speaker 1: and my take on the week that was in college football.

2491
02:20:20,879 --> 02:20:23,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to start my rant this week not about

2492
02:20:23,280 --> 02:20:27,000
Speaker 1: the committee and Notre Dame and the whole. Should Notre

2493
02:20:27,080 --> 02:20:31,240
Speaker 1: Dame be in over Miami? I think no. I think

2494
02:20:31,280 --> 02:20:33,480
Speaker 1: it's clear they don't they want to. I think Miami

2495
02:20:33,520 --> 02:20:35,240
Speaker 1: only gets in if they decide to take both Notre

2496
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:37,640
Speaker 1: Dame and Miami. I could argue that if you're gonna

2497
02:20:37,760 --> 02:20:42,640
Speaker 1: you know, the issue really is is the the fact

2498
02:20:42,640 --> 02:20:46,080
Speaker 1: that the SEC is way overrated this year. There is

2499
02:20:46,120 --> 02:20:49,400
Speaker 1: no doubt the SEC plays the most competitive college football.

2500
02:20:49,920 --> 02:20:52,480
Speaker 1: But the gap between the SEC and the other conferences

2501
02:20:52,520 --> 02:20:55,080
Speaker 1: has never been smaller. I mean, just look at the

2502
02:20:55,200 --> 02:21:01,000
Speaker 1: ACC versus the the SEC this year, and really this

2503
02:21:01,080 --> 02:21:03,880
Speaker 1: year matters more even than last year because you have

2504
02:21:04,200 --> 02:21:07,240
Speaker 1: more sort of more of a leveling of the nil

2505
02:21:07,280 --> 02:21:10,440
Speaker 1: playing field across both conferences. Right, the SEC got a

2506
02:21:10,520 --> 02:21:13,120
Speaker 1: jumpstart and the ACC has been catching up. And what

2507
02:21:13,200 --> 02:21:16,039
Speaker 1: has that led to the I think they met up

2508
02:21:16,080 --> 02:21:18,600
Speaker 1: ten times, just so you know.

2509
02:21:19,400 --> 02:21:20,039
Speaker 2: And.

2510
02:21:23,160 --> 02:21:25,600
Speaker 1: The a SC one four and the SEC one six,

2511
02:21:26,320 --> 02:21:31,240
Speaker 1: so it is we're not talking about a big difference

2512
02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:33,400
Speaker 1: between the two. So the point is, I don't think

2513
02:21:33,440 --> 02:21:38,600
Speaker 1: all these SEC schools should be getting in with and

2514
02:21:38,680 --> 02:21:42,400
Speaker 1: the aec getting zero, especially the duke. Now let me

2515
02:21:42,440 --> 02:21:45,120
Speaker 1: get off of my rant here a minute before I

2516
02:21:45,160 --> 02:21:47,360
Speaker 1: get to sort of what we saw this week in

2517
02:21:47,400 --> 02:21:48,560
Speaker 1: college foot Well, first of all, I got to give

2518
02:21:48,560 --> 02:21:52,199
Speaker 1: Miami credit. That's the best Miami's ever played in weather

2519
02:21:52,240 --> 02:21:54,520
Speaker 1: below forty degrees in the history of the University of

2520
02:21:54,520 --> 02:21:56,800
Speaker 1: Miami football, as far as I'm as far as my

2521
02:21:56,840 --> 02:21:59,800
Speaker 1: lifetime is concerned. I mean, I can't tell you how

2522
02:21:59,800 --> 02:22:04,800
Speaker 1: many times we played in Boston or in pitt outdoors

2523
02:22:04,959 --> 02:22:09,720
Speaker 1: in November and played like garbage. The cold weather games.

2524
02:22:10,160 --> 02:22:12,320
Speaker 1: It's always been an issue with these Miami teams. The

2525
02:22:12,400 --> 02:22:15,160
Speaker 1: Dolphins most recent last time they were in the playoffs

2526
02:22:15,320 --> 02:22:17,280
Speaker 1: was in a super cold weather game in Kansas City,

2527
02:22:18,040 --> 02:22:20,360
Speaker 1: and we all know how that turned out. It's a

2528
02:22:20,840 --> 02:22:23,800
Speaker 1: it's usually pretty difficult. The Miami played an out standing

2529
02:22:23,879 --> 02:22:27,120
Speaker 1: game in cold weather, That's that's one thing. And you know,

2530
02:22:27,160 --> 02:22:30,000
Speaker 1: they played like they needed to that they had something

2531
02:22:30,040 --> 02:22:32,160
Speaker 1: to say. I think it's pretty clear they're one of

2532
02:22:32,200 --> 02:22:35,800
Speaker 1: the ten best teams. They're one of Realistically, I look

2533
02:22:35,840 --> 02:22:38,480
Speaker 1: at it this way, who could beat Ohio State. They're

2534
02:22:38,480 --> 02:22:40,400
Speaker 1: one of a handful of teams at can beat Ohio State.

2535
02:22:40,440 --> 02:22:41,800
Speaker 1: I think there are only five or six teams at

2536
02:22:41,840 --> 02:22:44,720
Speaker 1: in beat Ohio State. Miami's one of them. Miami has

2537
02:22:44,800 --> 02:22:48,360
Speaker 1: the offensive line and defensive line to do it. So

2538
02:22:49,480 --> 02:22:51,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what more you know. Obviously, Mimi, you

2539
02:22:51,560 --> 02:22:53,680
Speaker 1: could say they shouldn't have lost two conference games, Well

2540
02:22:53,840 --> 02:22:56,760
Speaker 1: guess what. Notre Dame shouldn't have lost both of those games,

2541
02:22:56,800 --> 02:22:59,760
Speaker 1: but they did. It just happened. So then you compare

2542
02:22:59,760 --> 02:23:02,320
Speaker 1: with what you got. I don't get that dead, but

2543
02:23:02,400 --> 02:23:05,880
Speaker 1: let me go to let me go to something where

2544
02:23:05,879 --> 02:23:08,160
Speaker 1: I'm really ticked off, and that is at the leadership,

2545
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:16,760
Speaker 1: the horrendous leadership of the ACC. First of all, they

2546
02:23:16,760 --> 02:23:20,280
Speaker 1: have a tiebreaker situation for their champion that does not

2547
02:23:20,480 --> 02:23:23,920
Speaker 1: factor in non conference games. It only factors in conference games.

2548
02:23:23,920 --> 02:23:25,120
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you are like me, and

2549
02:23:25,120 --> 02:23:28,520
Speaker 1: you're like, how the f did Duke who was seven

2550
02:23:28,560 --> 02:23:36,080
Speaker 1: and five overall? Okay, how did Duke at six and

2551
02:23:36,160 --> 02:23:40,840
Speaker 1: two in the conference but one in three out of conference?

2552
02:23:41,760 --> 02:23:45,560
Speaker 1: Allowed was even allowed to be eligible for the conference

2553
02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:48,040
Speaker 1: title if you have a losing record out of conference,

2554
02:23:48,440 --> 02:23:50,320
Speaker 1: when two of your three losses are your teams that

2555
02:23:50,360 --> 02:23:53,920
Speaker 1: are not in power for conferences, right, So ultimately the

2556
02:23:53,959 --> 02:23:56,119
Speaker 1: ACC is going to have to fix this. No team

2557
02:23:56,240 --> 02:24:00,720
Speaker 1: because the possibility that Duke win defeats Virginia and is

2558
02:24:01,240 --> 02:24:05,160
Speaker 1: it wins the conference, Duke may not be one of

2559
02:24:05,200 --> 02:24:10,480
Speaker 1: the five highest ranked conference champions because the winner of

2560
02:24:10,520 --> 02:24:15,440
Speaker 1: the American, which may be North Texas or Tulane, I

2561
02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:17,600
Speaker 1: think that's what we have. I have there on the

2562
02:24:17,640 --> 02:24:23,520
Speaker 1: American or the winner let me get this right, it'll

2563
02:24:23,560 --> 02:24:25,520
Speaker 1: be North Texas or Tulane, or the winner of the

2564
02:24:25,560 --> 02:24:35,560
Speaker 1: Sun Belt Okay Conference, which could be James Madison might

2565
02:24:35,600 --> 02:24:42,600
Speaker 1: both be ranked higher than the winner of the ACC.

2566
02:24:44,640 --> 02:24:46,920
Speaker 1: And of course then the ACC could be left out

2567
02:24:46,959 --> 02:24:50,560
Speaker 1: completely at this point, because you could have a twelve

2568
02:24:50,600 --> 02:24:53,400
Speaker 1: and one James Madison team and let's say a twelve

2569
02:24:53,440 --> 02:24:56,200
Speaker 1: and one North Texas team and an eight and five

2570
02:24:56,320 --> 02:25:00,520
Speaker 1: Duke team. Remind you two of Duke's lo One of

2571
02:25:00,560 --> 02:25:02,959
Speaker 1: them was too two lane. One of them was to

2572
02:25:03,200 --> 02:25:06,840
Speaker 1: that football powerhouse in the Northeast called Yukon, the University

2573
02:25:06,879 --> 02:25:09,640
Speaker 1: of Connecticut Huskies, who are not a member of any conference.

2574
02:25:10,400 --> 02:25:12,400
Speaker 1: I might argue the a CEC probably should have taken

2575
02:25:12,440 --> 02:25:18,680
Speaker 1: them a while ago, but I digress. The fact that

2576
02:25:19,120 --> 02:25:23,040
Speaker 1: the leadership of the ACC created a tiebreaker that take

2577
02:25:23,240 --> 02:25:25,720
Speaker 1: does not that allows a team that does not play

2578
02:25:25,879 --> 02:25:30,720
Speaker 1: ten or more power for schools in their schedule is

2579
02:25:30,760 --> 02:25:35,600
Speaker 1: eligible for their conference championship. That is mistake number one

2580
02:25:35,680 --> 02:25:39,879
Speaker 1: because in case you're wondering, Duke gets the tiebreaker based

2581
02:25:39,920 --> 02:25:43,560
Speaker 1: on the they had, they have sort of there are

2582
02:25:43,720 --> 02:25:48,480
Speaker 1: seven uh tie breaking orders, okay, and so what you

2583
02:25:48,560 --> 02:25:51,800
Speaker 1: had was you had a one, two, three four. You

2584
02:25:51,800 --> 02:25:53,959
Speaker 1: had a five way tie for second in the ACC

2585
02:25:54,120 --> 02:25:56,879
Speaker 1: between Duke, Miami, Georgia Tech, SMU, and Pitt. They were

2586
02:25:56,920 --> 02:25:58,959
Speaker 1: all six and two an ACC play. So this is

2587
02:25:58,959 --> 02:26:01,200
Speaker 1: how the tiebreaker worked, head to hag among all the

2588
02:26:01,240 --> 02:26:03,840
Speaker 1: TIEDE teams if they all played each other, Unfortunately they

2589
02:26:03,879 --> 02:26:05,840
Speaker 1: did not. And if they didn't all play each other,

2590
02:26:05,920 --> 02:26:07,400
Speaker 1: is there a team that beat all the others in

2591
02:26:07,440 --> 02:26:10,480
Speaker 1: the tie that also didn't happen? Then it was win

2592
02:26:10,560 --> 02:26:14,040
Speaker 1: percentage versus all common opponents. Wasn't enough to deal with that,

2593
02:26:14,560 --> 02:26:17,120
Speaker 1: Then it was win percentage versus common opponents ordered by

2594
02:26:17,120 --> 02:26:22,040
Speaker 1: finishing the AEC standings. That couldn't figure out a winner,

2595
02:26:22,040 --> 02:26:24,720
Speaker 1: So then it became combined win percentage of each team's

2596
02:26:24,760 --> 02:26:29,080
Speaker 1: ACC opponents, i e. The strength of schedule within the conference.

2597
02:26:30,160 --> 02:26:34,240
Speaker 1: And that is where Duke ended up ahead of everybody else.

2598
02:26:34,760 --> 02:26:38,080
Speaker 1: Their ACC opponents are combined twenty nine and twenty nine.

2599
02:26:38,240 --> 02:26:41,240
Speaker 1: Miami's ACC opponents are combined twenty seven and thirty two.

2600
02:26:41,520 --> 02:26:44,440
Speaker 1: Georgia Techs are combined twenty five and thirty two. Sm

2601
02:26:44,560 --> 02:26:47,119
Speaker 1: us are combined twenty four and thirty five. Pits are

2602
02:26:47,160 --> 02:26:52,320
Speaker 1: combined twenty four and thirty six. So Duke who sits

2603
02:26:52,360 --> 02:26:55,600
Speaker 1: there and loses to two non Power four schools and

2604
02:26:55,680 --> 02:26:59,680
Speaker 1: Yukon and Tulane, those losses do not factor in at

2605
02:26:59,680 --> 02:27:02,760
Speaker 1: all whether or not they are worthy of the ACC

2606
02:27:02,920 --> 02:27:07,720
Speaker 1: Championship game. This is on the leadership of the ACC

2607
02:27:08,560 --> 02:27:11,760
Speaker 1: that there was no role about playing ten power four teams.

2608
02:27:11,760 --> 02:27:14,040
Speaker 1: I think there's going to be now number one that

2609
02:27:14,480 --> 02:27:17,400
Speaker 1: you would not get that losing to non Power four

2610
02:27:17,480 --> 02:27:21,720
Speaker 1: teams would actually be a demerit and would actually should

2611
02:27:21,720 --> 02:27:27,279
Speaker 1: count for more, could count more against you than losing

2612
02:27:27,320 --> 02:27:29,080
Speaker 1: to a Power four school, because the idea is to

2613
02:27:29,120 --> 02:27:32,160
Speaker 1: try to strengthen the schedule. So I just find the

2614
02:27:32,200 --> 02:27:36,120
Speaker 1: leadership of the ACC. They literally were silent when the

2615
02:27:36,360 --> 02:27:40,440
Speaker 1: ESPN and CFP Invitational Committee denied an undefeated Florida State

2616
02:27:40,480 --> 02:27:43,879
Speaker 1: team a place in the College Football Playoff he sat

2617
02:27:43,920 --> 02:27:47,240
Speaker 1: there barely in silence when Miami was left out of

2618
02:27:47,240 --> 02:27:49,840
Speaker 1: the college football playoff last year is the number one

2619
02:27:49,879 --> 02:27:51,800
Speaker 1: offense in the country and at ten and two with

2620
02:27:51,879 --> 02:27:55,240
Speaker 1: the number one overall pick. And then this year the

2621
02:27:55,280 --> 02:27:58,560
Speaker 1: ACC has done slightly better in the pr stance from

2622
02:27:58,560 --> 02:28:01,880
Speaker 1: the conference. But this is a debacle. And if the

2623
02:28:02,000 --> 02:28:05,480
Speaker 1: ACC only gets one team in the playoff, right, there's

2624
02:28:05,480 --> 02:28:08,760
Speaker 1: no doubt. And then that's if we're lucky, right, if

2625
02:28:08,760 --> 02:28:10,440
Speaker 1: we only get one team in the playoff, might end

2626
02:28:10,520 --> 02:28:14,600
Speaker 1: up being only Miami. But this is on Jim Phillips

2627
02:28:14,640 --> 02:28:17,279
Speaker 1: and the ACC. The fact is this is a complete

2628
02:28:17,320 --> 02:28:21,160
Speaker 1: and utter failure. The ACC's largest business partner, ESPN, has

2629
02:28:21,200 --> 02:28:25,120
Speaker 1: devalued the conference. They have reporters who ridicule the conference.

2630
02:28:25,360 --> 02:28:30,040
Speaker 1: Heather Dinwich ridiculed Georgia Tech schedule and says they have

2631
02:28:30,080 --> 02:28:33,640
Speaker 1: don't belong on the same field as Georgia. Basically, it took.

2632
02:28:33,680 --> 02:28:36,520
Speaker 1: It took the last game went to the last second

2633
02:28:36,560 --> 02:28:40,240
Speaker 1: because it was a one score game. The difference between

2634
02:28:40,280 --> 02:28:44,840
Speaker 1: the two conferences are this not this anymore because guess what,

2635
02:28:45,120 --> 02:28:50,280
Speaker 1: everybody's paying and there is no dominance that they all

2636
02:28:50,360 --> 02:28:54,200
Speaker 1: think and so there's a perception about the SEC. And

2637
02:28:54,240 --> 02:28:56,800
Speaker 1: here's the thing, I wish Greg Sanking were my conference commissioner,

2638
02:28:56,840 --> 02:29:00,200
Speaker 1: because look, do I blame Greg Sanking for frag men

2639
02:29:00,240 --> 02:29:03,440
Speaker 1: in college football, for making it harder to make college

2640
02:29:03,480 --> 02:29:08,600
Speaker 1: football bigger and better. He is trying to turn college

2641
02:29:08,600 --> 02:29:11,560
Speaker 1: football into a smaller club where only people in the

2642
02:29:11,600 --> 02:29:13,640
Speaker 1: SEC and the Big Ten can succeed. I think that's

2643
02:29:13,840 --> 02:29:15,800
Speaker 1: but you know what he does. He fights for his members,

2644
02:29:15,959 --> 02:29:18,360
Speaker 1: He fights for his conference. You know what Jim Phillips does.

2645
02:29:18,640 --> 02:29:21,680
Speaker 1: None of that. He does not fight publicly. And he's

2646
02:29:21,800 --> 02:29:26,000
Speaker 1: not a good communicator. Perhaps he is not you. And again,

2647
02:29:26,160 --> 02:29:28,520
Speaker 1: some of this isn't his fault. Some of this was

2648
02:29:28,560 --> 02:29:32,000
Speaker 1: the previous administration of the ACC getting into bed and

2649
02:29:32,080 --> 02:29:35,400
Speaker 1: a bad deal with ESPN, desperate for money and extending

2650
02:29:35,400 --> 02:29:40,680
Speaker 1: the Grannar rights way too long. But they've allowed themselves

2651
02:29:40,720 --> 02:29:43,080
Speaker 1: to be in a situation where the ACC gets less

2652
02:29:43,120 --> 02:29:47,000
Speaker 1: say about this college Football committee going forward? Right, The

2653
02:29:47,040 --> 02:29:49,959
Speaker 1: SEC and the Big Ten get to decide format somehow,

2654
02:29:50,080 --> 02:29:54,039
Speaker 1: the other power for conferences don't get a say here.

2655
02:29:56,000 --> 02:29:58,920
Speaker 1: The biggest business part in the ACC, which is ESPN,

2656
02:29:59,120 --> 02:30:04,920
Speaker 1: treats the ACC like shit, like dog excrement. Okay, And

2657
02:30:05,000 --> 02:30:08,760
Speaker 1: yet there is nothing that is done. So look, this

2658
02:30:09,080 --> 02:30:11,560
Speaker 1: is a debacle. The fact is the ACC had a

2659
02:30:11,560 --> 02:30:16,359
Speaker 1: pretty good year, was very competitive, and has no business

2660
02:30:16,400 --> 02:30:18,800
Speaker 1: allowed having Duke in its championship game. But for the

2661
02:30:18,879 --> 02:30:23,560
Speaker 1: ridiculous and dumb leadership and inability to see how awful

2662
02:30:23,560 --> 02:30:27,840
Speaker 1: and stupid this tiebreaker was and not fully appreciating that

2663
02:30:28,480 --> 02:30:30,879
Speaker 1: the entire especially the ACC, which is trying to fight

2664
02:30:30,959 --> 02:30:34,440
Speaker 1: for relevance. Your non conference schedules should be as important

2665
02:30:34,480 --> 02:30:37,520
Speaker 1: as your conference schedule, if not more important. Miami goes

2666
02:30:37,560 --> 02:30:40,120
Speaker 1: out there and schedules real opponents, Florida State goes out

2667
02:30:40,120 --> 02:30:42,560
Speaker 1: there and schedules real opponents, Clemson goes out there and

2668
02:30:42,600 --> 02:30:47,760
Speaker 1: schedules real opponents, and Duke schedules yukon. Okay, what are

2669
02:30:47,760 --> 02:30:52,320
Speaker 1: we thinking here? So this is terrible leadership from the ACC.

2670
02:30:53,879 --> 02:30:56,480
Speaker 1: He should be there should be a total house cleaning.

2671
02:30:56,879 --> 02:30:59,520
Speaker 1: And because this has cost in the University of Miami millions,

2672
02:30:59,640 --> 02:31:03,520
Speaker 1: this is costing every ACC school millions of dollars due

2673
02:31:03,560 --> 02:31:06,520
Speaker 1: to this poor leadership. So there needs to be a

2674
02:31:06,720 --> 02:31:11,400
Speaker 1: real serious meeting of the minds. ACC presidents need to

2675
02:31:11,440 --> 02:31:15,519
Speaker 1: realize they are not being served very well by this institution.

2676
02:31:15,959 --> 02:31:18,920
Speaker 1: That if anything, it has made things worse. They should

2677
02:31:18,920 --> 02:31:23,720
Speaker 1: be in litigation with ESPN over how poorly ESPN has devalued.

2678
02:31:23,760 --> 02:31:28,280
Speaker 1: They have actually devalued the conference in when they schedule games,

2679
02:31:28,440 --> 02:31:32,800
Speaker 1: how they schedule games, who broadcasts, they're reporting all of

2680
02:31:32,840 --> 02:31:36,080
Speaker 1: the demeaning things they've done and participating in this nonsense.

2681
02:31:36,120 --> 02:31:40,440
Speaker 1: I mean, Kirk Kirbstreet is embarrassing himself by essentially doing

2682
02:31:40,480 --> 02:31:46,800
Speaker 1: commentary that supports ESPN's media deals rather than I kind

2683
02:31:46,800 --> 02:31:49,320
Speaker 1: of think he doesn't believe that he is. He really

2684
02:31:49,360 --> 02:31:51,920
Speaker 1: going to make the argument that head to head shouldn't count.

2685
02:31:52,480 --> 02:31:55,560
Speaker 1: He literally And by the way, I'm very curious now

2686
02:31:56,920 --> 02:31:59,000
Speaker 1: Florida State was not allowed to compete in the playoff

2687
02:31:59,000 --> 02:32:02,240
Speaker 1: because they lost their starting quarterback. Is Ole Miss going

2688
02:32:02,280 --> 02:32:04,280
Speaker 1: to be allowed to beat in the playoffs since they

2689
02:32:04,360 --> 02:32:08,640
Speaker 1: lost their basically half their coaching staff? Again, I promise

2690
02:32:08,680 --> 02:32:11,040
Speaker 1: you if Ole Miss were remember the ACC, one hundred

2691
02:32:11,040 --> 02:32:13,240
Speaker 1: percent chance they would not be in this thing. But

2692
02:32:13,720 --> 02:32:18,080
Speaker 1: the SEC will fight for its member with its business partner, ESPN,

2693
02:32:18,440 --> 02:32:21,480
Speaker 1: something the ACC doesn't know how to do and has

2694
02:32:21,560 --> 02:32:23,600
Speaker 1: not figured out. And yeah, I get really heated about

2695
02:32:23,600 --> 02:32:26,840
Speaker 1: this because I spend way too much money. I care

2696
02:32:26,879 --> 02:32:30,560
Speaker 1: way too much. Yes, it's entertainment, that's what it is.

2697
02:32:31,240 --> 02:32:34,360
Speaker 1: But when you don't follow the basic rules of fairness

2698
02:32:34,800 --> 02:32:39,720
Speaker 1: and you don't actually fight for what's right and fight

2699
02:32:39,760 --> 02:32:42,680
Speaker 1: against what is just wrong, yes, it's an energy, but

2700
02:32:43,120 --> 02:32:47,840
Speaker 1: to literally see pure manipulation be used to punish your

2701
02:32:47,879 --> 02:32:53,160
Speaker 1: product and you sit there silently and do nothing. Come on, man,

2702
02:32:55,480 --> 02:32:58,600
Speaker 1: this has been You know, the ACC is in a

2703
02:32:58,680 --> 02:33:01,800
Speaker 1: worse position because of the leadership that it has right now,

2704
02:33:01,879 --> 02:33:04,400
Speaker 1: not a better precition. Miami's in a better position personally

2705
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:08,040
Speaker 1: because they basically had to take matters into their own hands.

2706
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:10,480
Speaker 1: Clemson in Florida State tried to take matters in their

2707
02:33:10,480 --> 02:33:13,080
Speaker 1: own hands with lawsuits. I think they got so focused

2708
02:33:13,120 --> 02:33:15,800
Speaker 1: on lawsuits they forgot how to build football teams. Mimi

2709
02:33:15,840 --> 02:33:17,240
Speaker 1: at least sat there and said, fine, we're just going

2710
02:33:17,320 --> 02:33:19,200
Speaker 1: to do what we can to schedule. By the way,

2711
02:33:19,280 --> 02:33:21,640
Speaker 1: we just had South Carolina cancel a game with Miami

2712
02:33:22,480 --> 02:33:27,080
Speaker 1: because of these conference scheduling issues. But at least it's

2713
02:33:27,080 --> 02:33:29,280
Speaker 1: an attempt to try to schedule Power four. But you know,

2714
02:33:29,320 --> 02:33:31,080
Speaker 1: I understand why South Carolina they are have to do.

2715
02:33:31,760 --> 02:33:33,560
Speaker 1: You know, if they have to do a ninth SEC game,

2716
02:33:33,640 --> 02:33:36,320
Speaker 1: plus their annual matchup with Clemson. They don't want to

2717
02:33:36,360 --> 02:33:38,640
Speaker 1: have eleven of their twelve games be against power four.

2718
02:33:39,200 --> 02:33:41,000
Speaker 1: Now I wouldn't mind that. It'd be kind of nice.

2719
02:33:41,440 --> 02:33:46,080
Speaker 1: Now as for the weekend, obviously, if Duke had lost

2720
02:33:46,080 --> 02:33:47,920
Speaker 1: to Wake for US, Miami would be in this ACC

2721
02:33:48,040 --> 02:33:53,880
Speaker 1: title game and the playoff committee's problems would have been solved.

2722
02:33:53,920 --> 02:33:55,720
Speaker 1: But now they're not solved, and now they've got to

2723
02:33:55,720 --> 02:34:00,480
Speaker 1: decide between all these ten and two teams. And you know,

2724
02:34:00,640 --> 02:34:03,720
Speaker 1: I do not think any playoff that includes Notre Dame

2725
02:34:03,720 --> 02:34:07,320
Speaker 1: but does include Miami is fair. And if it's the

2726
02:34:07,320 --> 02:34:09,600
Speaker 1: third straight year that it's always the it's the ACC

2727
02:34:09,800 --> 02:34:13,160
Speaker 1: that gets booted, then the ACC should stop scheduling Notre

2728
02:34:13,240 --> 02:34:18,200
Speaker 1: Dame completely. Every single school should cancel. If games against

2729
02:34:18,280 --> 02:34:22,680
Speaker 1: Notre Dame don't count, then why schedule them? Why put

2730
02:34:22,720 --> 02:34:26,800
Speaker 1: your players through that? So I think that's that's got

2731
02:34:26,840 --> 02:34:29,120
Speaker 1: to be a serious situation that people need to be

2732
02:34:29,959 --> 02:34:34,160
Speaker 1: thinking about. I find it comical that there's this Texas

2733
02:34:34,160 --> 02:34:39,320
Speaker 1: contingent that thinks, after losing to Florida the way they

2734
02:34:39,360 --> 02:34:42,800
Speaker 1: lost to Florida, going to overtime against Kentucky, almost losing

2735
02:34:42,840 --> 02:34:45,600
Speaker 1: to Mississippi State, that there's that a victory over a

2736
02:34:45,640 --> 02:34:47,959
Speaker 1: Texas A and M team that was not putting one

2737
02:34:48,040 --> 02:34:50,080
Speaker 1: hundred percent of their focus on this game because it

2738
02:34:50,160 --> 02:34:53,840
Speaker 1: literally was a meaningless game. Yes, it mattered to the alums,

2739
02:34:53,840 --> 02:34:55,440
Speaker 1: but I only get mattered to the coaching staff for

2740
02:34:55,480 --> 02:34:59,360
Speaker 1: the players. And we're supposed to now say Texas is

2741
02:34:59,360 --> 02:35:02,120
Speaker 1: a part of the playoff. Sorry, guys, don't go to

2742
02:35:02,120 --> 02:35:05,320
Speaker 1: over time at Kentucky, a team that just got shut

2743
02:35:05,360 --> 02:35:08,000
Speaker 1: up by forty points by Louisville and one of those

2744
02:35:08,000 --> 02:35:13,720
Speaker 1: lowly acc teams by the way. So look, I think

2745
02:35:13,720 --> 02:35:17,679
Speaker 1: it's going to come down to Alabama, Ole Miss, Oklahoma,

2746
02:35:18,600 --> 02:35:21,560
Speaker 1: because I do think this Old Miss coaching situation. Again,

2747
02:35:21,840 --> 02:35:28,119
Speaker 1: if if Jordan Travis not being available to Florida State

2748
02:35:28,200 --> 02:35:29,760
Speaker 1: was a reason to keep them out of the playoff,

2749
02:35:30,160 --> 02:35:34,039
Speaker 1: then not having the offensive the offensive mastermind of Old

2750
02:35:34,040 --> 02:35:40,600
Speaker 1: Miss involved in the playoff. Sorry, guys, you know this

2751
02:35:40,800 --> 02:35:43,600
Speaker 1: is you know and in fact, this system I think

2752
02:35:43,600 --> 02:35:46,360
Speaker 1: it sucks for the players, But guess what, this is

2753
02:35:46,360 --> 02:35:49,440
Speaker 1: what Lane Kiffin put them in. This is the position

2754
02:35:49,480 --> 02:35:51,480
Speaker 1: they got. They got put in. So you have a

2755
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:54,119
Speaker 1: choice to make. Either you finish your job with Ole

2756
02:35:54,200 --> 02:35:58,440
Speaker 1: Miss and let's let lsu Hire somebody else. Yes, do

2757
02:35:58,520 --> 02:36:00,920
Speaker 1: I think the transfer portal, window, timing and all that

2758
02:36:00,959 --> 02:36:03,959
Speaker 1: should change, There's no doubt about it. But Ole Miss

2759
02:36:04,040 --> 02:36:05,360
Speaker 1: is not going to be the same. If they don't

2760
02:36:05,360 --> 02:36:07,240
Speaker 1: win a game, we're gonna say, well, if Lane Kivin

2761
02:36:07,280 --> 02:36:10,840
Speaker 1: had been there, right, So I think if you're gonna again,

2762
02:36:11,280 --> 02:36:16,120
Speaker 1: if if Jordan Travis was a precedent center by this

2763
02:36:16,160 --> 02:36:19,800
Speaker 1: playoff committee, then I suspect ole Miss will get left out.

2764
02:36:20,879 --> 02:36:24,600
Speaker 1: Now again, I don't think that's fair. I'm you know,

2765
02:36:24,640 --> 02:36:27,400
Speaker 1: I think that's that that sucks. By the way, ole

2766
02:36:27,440 --> 02:36:30,400
Speaker 1: Miss be careful of hiring the popular assistant that the

2767
02:36:30,440 --> 02:36:33,520
Speaker 1: players want. Miami did this in two after the two

2768
02:36:33,560 --> 02:36:36,680
Speaker 1: thousand season with Larry Coker. It worked for you know,

2769
02:36:36,800 --> 02:36:41,920
Speaker 1: it worked until it didn't. It's it is, it's it

2770
02:36:42,000 --> 02:36:44,959
Speaker 1: helps you if you really think you're that close to

2771
02:36:45,000 --> 02:36:48,080
Speaker 1: winning the whole thing. It worked, right, and Miami had

2772
02:36:48,240 --> 02:36:50,200
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of senior leadership going into that first

2773
02:36:50,280 --> 02:36:53,000
Speaker 1: year of Coker with Ed Reid and Ken Dorsey, and

2774
02:36:53,120 --> 02:36:55,840
Speaker 1: they had coaches on the field. But I don't know,

2775
02:36:57,000 --> 02:37:00,160
Speaker 1: but I could also argue that because they win in

2776
02:37:00,200 --> 02:37:02,240
Speaker 1: a direction that they probably wouldn't have gone under any

2777
02:37:02,240 --> 02:37:06,080
Speaker 1: other circumstance. The program hit hard times, much quicker, much

2778
02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:09,160
Speaker 1: faster than it should have or suspected that it should have.

2779
02:37:11,040 --> 02:37:15,000
Speaker 1: But let's just say the weekend. Look, I was certainly

2780
02:37:15,040 --> 02:37:19,280
Speaker 1: pulling for LSU, I was pulling for Auburn. There's no

2781
02:37:19,360 --> 02:37:20,920
Speaker 1: doubt it would have been nice to see one of

2782
02:37:20,920 --> 02:37:24,440
Speaker 1: those teams lose. But ultimately it's going to be this

2783
02:37:24,520 --> 02:37:28,680
Speaker 1: conversation between Miami Notre Dame. If Alabama loses to Georgia

2784
02:37:29,280 --> 02:37:31,440
Speaker 1: does a three loss Alabama team, Yes, I know they

2785
02:37:31,480 --> 02:37:36,400
Speaker 1: made the SEC Final. I'm sorry. If you are going

2786
02:37:36,480 --> 02:37:39,160
Speaker 1: to compare Miami and Alabama, they have a common opponent.

2787
02:37:39,640 --> 02:37:42,600
Speaker 1: Miami beat the common opponent. Alabama lost to the common opponent.

2788
02:37:42,920 --> 02:37:49,039
Speaker 1: If you're going to put up Oklahoma and Miami, I

2789
02:37:49,040 --> 02:37:50,840
Speaker 1: think it's not even a close call when you look

2790
02:37:50,840 --> 02:37:54,200
Speaker 1: at the two offenses and the defenses are pretty similar. Obviously,

2791
02:37:54,200 --> 02:37:59,640
Speaker 1: Miami beat Notre Dame had to head, so I don't

2792
02:37:59,640 --> 02:38:02,480
Speaker 1: think it's it's really that difficult. I think it's it's

2793
02:38:02,520 --> 02:38:05,040
Speaker 1: a lot. You have to come up with more convoluted

2794
02:38:05,080 --> 02:38:07,920
Speaker 1: reasons to keep Miami out than to put them in.

2795
02:38:08,000 --> 02:38:10,440
Speaker 1: Right there, there's sort of there are more logical reasons

2796
02:38:10,440 --> 02:38:15,240
Speaker 1: to include them. Last year it was harder. Okay, Miami

2797
02:38:15,240 --> 02:38:17,640
Speaker 1: also ended the season poorly this time, Mimi didn't end

2798
02:38:17,640 --> 02:38:21,320
Speaker 1: the season poorly this year. To leave them out is

2799
02:38:21,360 --> 02:38:25,000
Speaker 1: to send a message to the ACC and I think

2800
02:38:25,200 --> 02:38:31,080
Speaker 1: should invite a lawsuit, multiple lawsuits, because this is there

2801
02:38:31,200 --> 02:38:35,360
Speaker 1: is no good explanation other than some sort of of

2802
02:38:35,520 --> 02:38:40,040
Speaker 1: marketing or media preference which is not supposed to be

2803
02:38:40,160 --> 02:38:43,800
Speaker 1: in the criteria at all. And this is all that

2804
02:38:43,879 --> 02:38:46,440
Speaker 1: any of us are begging for. Can you just give

2805
02:38:46,520 --> 02:38:50,040
Speaker 1: us criteria that we know at the beginning of the season,

2806
02:38:51,440 --> 02:38:55,120
Speaker 1: so that you know there is it's purposely ambiguous so

2807
02:38:55,160 --> 02:38:58,160
Speaker 1: they can pick and choose what teams that they want,

2808
02:38:58,280 --> 02:39:01,000
Speaker 1: so that they don't have to include certain teams that

2809
02:39:01,000 --> 02:39:04,760
Speaker 1: they don't want to include, which, of course sends a

2810
02:39:04,840 --> 02:39:08,720
Speaker 1: terrible message to our youth in America. Right, are we americatocracy?

2811
02:39:08,800 --> 02:39:11,280
Speaker 1: You know what's supposed to make America different is that

2812
02:39:11,320 --> 02:39:14,640
Speaker 1: we're a meritocracy and things get Hey, what happened on

2813
02:39:14,680 --> 02:39:17,199
Speaker 1: the field, right? Did you have it on the field?

2814
02:39:17,320 --> 02:39:19,400
Speaker 1: What happened on the field, what happened in real life?

2815
02:39:19,480 --> 02:39:23,600
Speaker 1: Don't tell me what happens in a statistical analysis, tell

2816
02:39:23,600 --> 02:39:27,560
Speaker 1: me what actually happened. If we are not going to

2817
02:39:27,640 --> 02:39:29,800
Speaker 1: live in the real world and we are just going

2818
02:39:29,879 --> 02:39:33,920
Speaker 1: to manufacture this, and why isn't all sports become the WWE,

2819
02:39:35,600 --> 02:39:38,160
Speaker 1: Because we are getting awfully close to getting there with

2820
02:39:38,240 --> 02:39:43,320
Speaker 1: the way this ridiculous committee works. And we're in a

2821
02:39:43,360 --> 02:39:46,720
Speaker 1: period of time where we don't trust institutions as it is,

2822
02:39:47,480 --> 02:39:51,320
Speaker 1: and we're certainly not going to trust this institution. And

2823
02:39:51,680 --> 02:39:53,640
Speaker 1: the thing is is that if anybody else were sitting

2824
02:39:53,640 --> 02:39:58,320
Speaker 1: in Miami's shoes, they would be just as annoyed at

2825
02:39:58,320 --> 02:40:00,920
Speaker 1: this injustice, just as and you just sit there going,

2826
02:40:01,200 --> 02:40:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, why can't we just have fairness? All we're

2827
02:40:03,640 --> 02:40:07,320
Speaker 1: asking for is fairness? And right now the ACC is

2828
02:40:07,360 --> 02:40:11,600
Speaker 1: not treated with any fairness whatsoever by ESPN and and

2829
02:40:11,600 --> 02:40:15,640
Speaker 1: and it's invitational committee, and their behavior here has really

2830
02:40:15,640 --> 02:40:18,520
Speaker 1: been a turn off. I did not watch a single

2831
02:40:18,600 --> 02:40:21,600
Speaker 1: bit of ESPN commentary because I knew it was going

2832
02:40:21,680 --> 02:40:25,200
Speaker 1: to be a bunch of horseshit bullshit about Texas and

2833
02:40:25,240 --> 02:40:27,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of hot you know, especially on Saturday morning,

2834
02:40:28,120 --> 02:40:30,840
Speaker 1: and and and the planting of the seeds of these

2835
02:40:30,879 --> 02:40:34,840
Speaker 1: absurd arguments that somehow you have to dismiss an actual

2836
02:40:34,879 --> 02:40:37,879
Speaker 1: result that took place on the field. It is literally

2837
02:40:38,600 --> 02:40:41,160
Speaker 1: I do think they are participating in the very definition

2838
02:40:41,240 --> 02:40:46,600
Speaker 1: of gas landing. So ten days obviously, I've got to uh,

2839
02:40:47,640 --> 02:40:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I am prepared for what's likely going

2840
02:40:51,400 --> 02:40:53,600
Speaker 1: to happen, which is that somehow Miami gets screwed out

2841
02:40:53,600 --> 02:40:59,000
Speaker 1: of this due to the due to poor poor ACC leadership.

2842
02:40:59,000 --> 02:41:00,760
Speaker 1: But if I if you take away one thing from here,

2843
02:41:00,800 --> 02:41:02,640
Speaker 1: and the one thing that I as much as I

2844
02:41:02,680 --> 02:41:06,760
Speaker 1: get upset about ESPN and the SEC and what they do,

2845
02:41:07,720 --> 02:41:10,879
Speaker 1: ACC has terrible leadership and it's got to change the

2846
02:41:10,920 --> 02:41:14,280
Speaker 1: fact that Duke was a system was created that allowed

2847
02:41:14,280 --> 02:41:17,160
Speaker 1: a seven and five team that played that lost to

2848
02:41:17,240 --> 02:41:20,840
Speaker 1: Yukon and Tulane got into the Witch Championship game. That's

2849
02:41:20,879 --> 02:41:23,680
Speaker 1: on you, Jim Phillips and the ACC. This is not

2850
02:41:24,480 --> 02:41:26,440
Speaker 1: a smart way to do this. This was not in

2851
02:41:26,480 --> 02:41:29,160
Speaker 1: the best interest of the ACC, and you have hurt

2852
02:41:29,200 --> 02:41:32,760
Speaker 1: financially every single member school at the ACC. Other than that,

2853
02:41:32,840 --> 02:41:36,119
Speaker 1: you're doing a terrific job. All right. With that, I'll

2854
02:41:36,160 --> 02:41:39,160
Speaker 1: see in forty eight hours when we get our first

2855
02:41:39,200 --> 02:41:42,680
Speaker 1: taste of what the College Football Committee has to say,