1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 2: We have a lot to get to, but let's start 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 2: with breaking news on Gaza. There's reporting that Israel and 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 2: mediators have agreed to a draft and are awaiting Hamas's response. 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: It seems like we're close, maybe closer than ever. We've 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: also been here before. What's different this time? 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 3: Well, first, I think the accumulating pressure on Hamas has 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 3: been really considerable. They have had their military formations destroyed, 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 3: their top leader taken out, their main proxy allies badly decimated, 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 3: and their sponsor Iran weakened and distracted. So I think 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 3: the pressure is building for Hamas to come to yes. 12 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 3: I think Israel also has achieved a huge amount of 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 3: its military objectives in Gaza, and therefore they are in 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: a position to be able to say yes. So there 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 3: is a distinct possibility that we can get this deal 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 3: done this week before President Biden leaves office. But as 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 3: you say, we've been here before, We've been close before 18 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: and haven't gotten across the finish line, so I can't 19 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: make any promises or predictions. But just this morning I 20 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 3: was on the phone with Brett McGirk, who has been 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 3: basically camped out in Doha. He's been there for more 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 3: than a week working the details within the framework President 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 3: Biden set out last year. I spoke also this morning 24 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 3: with the Cutty Prime Minister and with one of the 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: key Israeli negotiators, and there is a general sense that 26 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: this is moving in the right direction. The question now 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 3: over the next short while is can Hamas get to yes? 28 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 3: Can we get to a final agreement, and then can 29 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: we begin implementing in the coming days. 30 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: It's there for the taking. 31 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: So the question is now can we all collectively seize 32 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 3: the moment and. 33 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: Make this happen? 34 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: Vice President elect JD. Van said yesterday it will probably 35 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 2: get done a day or two before you leave office. 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: Do deadlines like this specific deadlines help or hurt them 37 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: a botiations? And does rhetoric like the one employed by 38 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 2: President elect Donald Trump? Is it useful to get Hamas 39 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: to yes? 40 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: I think deadlines can serve two functions in a negotiation. 41 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: When they're imposed by one party, frequently a deadline can 42 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 3: make the other party think, hey, if I just wait 43 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 3: till the last minute, they'll give me everything. If they're 44 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: imposed by the mediators, if the Americans, the Cutteries, the 45 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 3: Egyptians all basically say let's focus the mining, get this 46 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 3: thing done. I think they can have a positive impact, 47 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: and so I think the pressure building here towards the 48 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: end of President Biden's term has been considerable and that 49 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 3: that will help contribute to a positive outcome if we 50 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 3: can generate that final yes from both sides. 51 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: At the same time. 52 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 3: This has been a circumstance in which President Biden gave 53 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 3: direction shortly after the election to me, to Brett and 54 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: to others on our team. Work closely with the incoming team. 55 00:02:58,080 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 3: Make sure we have a united front, we have a 56 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: core native message, and we have tried to do that 57 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: over the course of the last several weeks, as has 58 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 3: the Trump team that's coming in. I think this is 59 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 3: not a partisan issue. This is an American issue to 60 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 3: get our hostages out and all of the hostages out, 61 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 3: bring the fighting to an end, and surge humanitarian assistance 62 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: into Gaza. And I think it's how a transition should operate, 63 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 3: and it's consistent with President Biden's worldview about his stewardship 64 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 3: of this country. 65 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: So you don't think any of the fiery rhetoric coming 66 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: from the incoming team has actually changed anything at the 67 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: negotiating table. 68 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 3: I have been struck by this phrase about all hell 69 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 3: to pay or all hell will break loose, because if 70 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 3: you're a Hamas fighter sitting in Gaza, I think it'd 71 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 3: be fair to say that you have been seeing hell 72 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: rain down on you for fourteen months. The total smashing 73 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 3: of Hamas battalions, the killing of the top three leaders 74 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 3: Sinwar dave Issa, among others, and all of the other 75 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: ways in which your entire broader network has been badly 76 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: degraded in your sponsor has been so badly weakened. So 77 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: the amount of firepower and pressure military pressure brought to 78 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 3: bear on Hamas has been pretty dramatic over the course 79 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: of the past fourteen months. I think it's the accumulated 80 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: effect of that, combined with this looming period of transition 81 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 3: from one president to another, that has created a circumstance 82 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: where we could get to a deal. 83 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 2: You've spent the last year plus on the Middle East. 84 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 2: Safe to say that's probably not the region that you 85 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: thought coming in would be taken up taking up a 86 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: lot of your time. How much has that taken away 87 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 2: from your priorities? And that no Pacific and other regions 88 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: in the world, or has it look. 89 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 3: I really think one of the things history will look 90 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: back on in the Biden administration and see quite clearly 91 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 3: is that even as we've dealt with two substantial geopolitical crises, 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 3: Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the outbreak of this conflict 93 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 3: in the Middle East beginning with Hamas's brutal massacre of 94 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 3: Israelis on October seventh, that through all of that, we 95 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: have never even for a second, taken our eye off 96 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: the ball with the long term competition with China, and 97 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 3: we have taken a series of actions in supporting alliances, 98 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 3: protecting technology, investing in our sources of strength that have 99 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 3: left us in a position at the end of four 100 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 3: years where we have dramatically improved America's position in the 101 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: long term competition with China. And we've done so while 102 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: managing the relationship so it doesn't tip over into conflict, 103 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: so it doesn't make the headlines every day the way 104 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 3: the Middle East and Ukraine does. But the record and 105 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: the reality of the US China dynamic in twenty twenty 106 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 3: five compared with twenty twenty one, especially against the expectations 107 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty one, I think is quite a remarkable 108 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 3: record that president can take a great deal of pride in. 109 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 2: Let's talk about China for a second. You guys announced 110 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: a new rule this morning on new limits on sales 111 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 2: of advanced AI chips. Can you explain to us where 112 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: did that rule originate? How did you get here? Yeah, 113 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: what's the backstory? 114 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 3: So it originated from a basic reality, which is that 115 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 3: the United States has to pursue two core objectives at once. 116 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 3: The first objective is for the United States itself to 117 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 3: maintain the lead when it comes to frontier AI technology, 118 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 3: and that that technology should be developed in the United 119 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 3: States and our closest allies and not offshore to the 120 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: rest of the world. And second, we want the world 121 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: to run on an infrastructure of American technology. We want 122 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: data centers around the world that are powering AI applications 123 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: with American technology and not with Chinese technology or any 124 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: other technology. So how do you achieve both of those things? 125 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 3: That was the question presented to the key departments and 126 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: agencies of the US government, and so over the course 127 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 3: of many months, we worked on a rule that could 128 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 3: help us achieve. 129 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: Both of those objectives. 130 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 3: On the one hand, ensuring there were protections around the 131 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: highest end compute capability, So we were building that out 132 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: in America in our very closest allies, and on the 133 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 3: other hand, making sure that we had predictable and clear. 134 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: Rules for the export. 135 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: Of high end computing capability so that other countries could 136 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 3: reap the benefits of American technology without getting diverted to 137 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 3: our competitors and adversaries. 138 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: That's the rule that we produced. 139 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: And it really stems from I think one of the 140 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 3: most critical national security imperatives of the next generation, which 141 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 3: is how we make AI work for us rather than 142 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 3: against US and America Maintaining the lead in AI as 143 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: opposed to seeding it to China is going to be 144 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: decisive in making sure that it works for us. When 145 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: we came into office in twenty one, there were a 146 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 3: lot of people who said it's going to be China. 147 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: Not the US who leads the world in AI. We 148 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: are in the lead today. 149 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 3: We're determined to protect, preserve, and extend that lead, and 150 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 3: that's the hand we're going to pass off to the 151 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: next administration. 152 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: Right so you're on your way out. The deadline for 153 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: this rule is very far in the future. So you 154 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: punted that, what are the consequences if the Trump administration 155 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: doesn't implement this rule. 156 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 3: So I would take issue with the word punt. What 157 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: we did is set out a comment period of one 158 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: hundred and twenty days. And why did we do that. 159 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 3: We did that because a rule of this significance needs 160 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 3: comment from industry, from civil society, from other stakeholders, so 161 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: that we make sure that we get this balance I've 162 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: just described right, And so we are rigorous and systematic 163 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: and thoughtful about having a process that allows that comment 164 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 3: to come in, allows the new team to digest it 165 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 3: and then make whatever adjustments are necessary. Now, obviously it's 166 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 3: going to be up to them how they want to proceed, 167 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 3: and they may have internal debates the same way we 168 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 3: had internal debates about exactly how to calibrate the rule. 169 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: I would expect nothing less, but I would be surprised 170 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: sitting here today if after one hundred and twenty days 171 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 3: they looked at the landscape as we've looked at it 172 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: and said, you know, we really don't need this at all. 173 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: Let's move on to other things. 174 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: Because the more you study this question, to me, the 175 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: more critical it is that you have a rule of 176 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: this kind. The details to be worked to be able 177 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: to secure the objectives. 178 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: That I laid out. 179 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 2: Everything you've been doing on the China Tech competition has 180 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: been under the umbrella of small yar at high fence. 181 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: Obviously it's a very dynamic landscape. So how do you 182 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: ensure that regulations stay up to date and you don't 183 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 2: unnecessarily make the yard too wide or the sense too tall. 184 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: Basically by showing our homework. 185 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 3: I mean, we put out our first semiconductor rule in 186 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: October of twenty twenty two, and when we did it, 187 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 3: we said, the technology is moving very rapidly, the development 188 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: of high end chips, their relative amount of power and 189 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 3: compute capability is evolving. So we're going to have to 190 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 3: update this rule, and we did. We updated it in 191 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. We've updated it again in twenty twenty four, 192 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 3: and we expect the Trump administration will keep doing that. 193 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 3: So a degree of predictability that there will be constant 194 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: iteration and update is part of it. 195 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: And then displaying why it. 196 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 3: Is that we chose the parameters that we chose in 197 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 3: excruciating detail, which not that many people read. I know 198 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 3: you do and some of your colleagues at Bloomberg do 199 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: a lot of people don't, but we are putting it 200 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: all out there in a totally transparent way, and we're 201 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 3: not just being transparent publicly. I have spent hours, if 202 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 3: not tens of hours, sitting across the table from my 203 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: Chinese counterpart Onongi, talking through why we're doing what we're 204 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 3: doing with respect to the small yard high fence approach, 205 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: what we consider in the yard inside the yard, and 206 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: what we consider outside the yard, and explaining the rationale 207 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 3: and the logic behind it, because we've got nothing to 208 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 3: hide here, We've got nothing to apologize for. This we 209 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 3: believe is core to America's national security, and we are 210 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: going to continue to have a degree of transparency on 211 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 3: it through the end of our time here. And I 212 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: would expect the incoming team will pick up where we 213 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: left off because this very much has a strong bipartisan backing. 214 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 3: It's the kind of thing that I think can be 215 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 3: carried forward in a new administration, and I would hope 216 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: that it would be on that. 217 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: You know, obviously, all these rules take months and months 218 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 2: to come up with. There's tons of lobbying from all 219 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: sides to shape what the final rule or final outcome 220 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: looks like. How worried are you when you say that 221 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: the Trump administration will carry this forward? They might night 222 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 2: not like the yards and fences that you put up, 223 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: or they might also be more prone to negotiate with 224 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: companies one on one. How worried are you that corporate 225 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: lobbying could undo some of this framework that you set up, 226 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: given how many tech billionaires are in the president elect's 227 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 2: orbit might serve in the administration. 228 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: You know, I think you'd expect that after four years, 229 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 3: I'd be very hard bitten, maybe quite cynical, about just 230 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 3: about every element of American politics and policy. I actually 231 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 3: I have to tell you that my experience in working 232 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 3: through our technology and national security policy has been pretty hardening. 233 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 3: I've spent a lot of time with a lot of 234 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 3: tech leaders, the CEOs of major technology companies big tech, 235 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: the innovators and entrepreneurs in small tech. And there are exceptions, 236 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 3: none of which I will name here, But by and large, 237 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: people accept the basic proposition that the United States needs 238 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 3: technology controls for the most exquisite technology Jesus national security applications, 239 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 3: and the debate is over the details. So I have 240 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 3: not found a deeply cynical game being played on this 241 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 3: By and large, I think it has been a robust 242 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: and rigorous give and take. But it's interesting to see 243 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: that American technology leaders have publicly said we need a 244 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 3: kind of small yard high fence, or we need something 245 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: along these lines. So I think we've built some momentum 246 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: behind this notion. I think it's going to be hard 247 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 3: to entirely knock that off. Course, I think Congress is 248 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: invested in it. I think the national security community across 249 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 3: the aisle is invested in it. So can I say 250 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 3: I'll go to sleep at night every night totally confident 251 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 3: that this will be carried forward in the way that 252 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 3: I'd like to see it. 253 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: No, I can't say that. 254 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: But among the initiatives that the Biden administration has really 255 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: powered and pioneered over the last four years, this is 256 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 3: one that it would come as some measure of surprise 257 00:13:58,400 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: to me if the new team threw it. 258 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: Out the window. 259 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: Your colleague Common Secretary Gina Armando told my colleagues at 260 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 2: the Law Street Journal that quote, trying to hold China 261 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: back is a fool's Errand do you agree. 262 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 3: I don't think it's the right way to think about 263 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 3: what we are doing, The right way to think about it. 264 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: For me, is just common sense. 265 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 3: If we have a very high end technology that has 266 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: deep national security applications, we don't want it to be 267 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 3: sold to a country that can use it against us. 268 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 3: That has been true throughout America's technology policy. Now in 269 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 3: the Cold War, that meant basically a total technology blockade, 270 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 3: indeed really a decoupling of the US and Soviet economies. 271 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: That's not what we need today, which China we are integrated. 272 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 3: We should continue to have trade, normal intercourse, even on technology. 273 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: That's why we have a small yard high fence. The 274 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 3: goal here is about meeting somewhere in the middle between nothing, 275 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 3: no restraints, which has never been a part of the American 276 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 3: form policy. We've had export controls for decades and the 277 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 3: kind of Cold War style technology blockade we had. You've 278 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: got to meet in the middle. That is not fundamentally 279 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: about holding anyone back or containment or anything like that. 280 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 3: What is about is common sense, the common sensibility to 281 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 3: look at the American people in the eye and say, 282 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 3: for certain critical technologies, we are not going to allow 283 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: them to be in the hands of people who you 284 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 3: use them against us. 285 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: That's how I look at it. 286 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: That can succeed, I would submit, is succeeding. But I 287 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 3: think the other half of what Secretary of Romando is 288 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 3: saying in that comment is our main purpose and the 289 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,119 Speaker 3: main thrust of our effort should be investing in ourselves. 290 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: And that's been a core feature of the Biden administration. 291 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 3: Investment in our industrial base, in our innovation base, in 292 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: our supply chains, and in friend shoring. We have made 293 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 3: I think substantial progress on that front. But that is 294 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: a generational project, and I hope that in every dimension 295 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 3: that is carried forward. I have some concerns based on 296 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 3: the rhetoric I've heard about whether those investments will be 297 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 3: carried forward, but I think they are profoundly in our 298 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 3: national interest. 299 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: Our investments without export controls. The right approach, though, is 300 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: one really is our investments more important to leading. 301 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 3: If all you have our export controls and that's it, 302 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 3: and you're not making the dramatic investments in the sources 303 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: of our own innovation and industrial capacity, then you're not 304 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 3: going to succeed. And that's why President Biden has paired 305 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 3: the two of them together. 306 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 2: Your overarching approach on China, as you mentioned, has been 307 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: to responsibly manage the relationships so that competition doesn't bear 308 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: into conflict. Over the last four years, but also more recently, 309 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: we've seen major hacks of US telecom systems, critical infrastructure, 310 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: and of course there's still continued support by Beijing for 311 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: Russia's war. Would you say that your approach to China 312 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: has been successful or did Beijing take advantage of the 313 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: US and your willingness to talk? 314 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: So first, for me, the question is, in a long 315 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 3: term strategic competition with China, are in a position of 316 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 3: confidence and capacity? Are we in a stronger position in 317 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: that competition than we were four years ago? 318 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: I think it's not even a close call. 319 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: The United States is in such a stronger position today 320 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: than we were four years ago, and that is a 321 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 3: mark of unalloyed success in the relationship. But then there's 322 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 3: a second thing, is are we careening towards war with China? 323 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 3: I think the last thing the American people want is 324 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 3: a massive war with a nuclear earmpower. And we have 325 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 3: also succeeded even as we have strengthened our position in 326 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 3: the competition, in stabilizing the relationship, managing it so that 327 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 3: it isn't tipping over into conflict. I think that is 328 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 3: also an unalloyed success. When we came into office four 329 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 3: years ago, the common prediction was that China's economy was inevitably, 330 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 3: intelluctibly going to be going to surpass the American economy, 331 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 3: maybe as soon as twenty thirty. Now there's a genuine 332 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 3: debate about whether it will ever happen. 333 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: When we came into office. 334 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 3: People said it's going to be China, not the US 335 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 3: who leads the world in AI. That's not the case today, 336 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 3: and we should work to ensure it isn't the case. 337 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 3: When we came into office, we did not have this strong, 338 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 3: robust network of alliances and partnerships in the Indo Pacific 339 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 3: that we have now built, which allows us to have 340 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 3: much stronger deterrence in that part of the world. Again, 341 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 3: another success China is hacking the United States. They were 342 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 3: doing so in previous administrations, they're doing so today. And 343 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 3: some of these recent hacks, the Salt Typhoon hack, are 344 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 3: dramatic in their scope and scale, and we take them 345 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 3: deadly seriously. There's the espionage part of that, like Salt Typhoon, 346 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 3: and then there's the potential that China would actually use 347 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: cyber means to physically disrupt or destroy critical infrastructure in 348 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: the United States, and we've sent a clear message to 349 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 3: China's leaders that if they did that, if they actually 350 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 3: took a physically destructive cyber attack in the United States, 351 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 3: that there would be severe consequences. I'm not going to 352 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 3: go into the details of those conversations, but they have 353 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 3: been consistent and sustained over time, and we're going to 354 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 3: have to continue to deter China from doing that because 355 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: we have seen them setting up or positioning to be 356 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 3: able to do that in the future, and it's something 357 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 3: the new team will have to continue to work on deterring. 358 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: Let's move to the EU. Over the last four years, 359 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: you've spent a lot of time trying to negotiate with 360 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: them on some trade related issues like a global steel arrangement, 361 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 2: something on large civil aircraft. None of these came to fruition. 362 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: All have been now punted because the deadlines were long 363 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 2: to the new administration, which is not you guys. Do 364 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 2: you think the EU missed an opportunity to work with 365 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 2: you guys on China trade given they're going to come 366 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: in and have a much more adversarial counterpart in two weeks. 367 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: Well, I think. 368 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 3: To answer your question, we have to start from the 369 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: beginning of the Biden administration. Just a few weeks before 370 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 3: we took office, Europe and China signed a acid trade deal, 371 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 3: a comprehensive agreement on investment that was right at the 372 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: end of the Trump administration, and to me, that was 373 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 3: a mark of not paying attention to the EU and 374 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 3: working with them on a common approach to China. Today, 375 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 3: that comprehensive agreement on investment is on the shelf, it 376 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 3: is not enforce In fact, what the European Union has 377 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: done is moved into a much more convergent position with 378 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: us when it comes to China's economic abuses. You saw 379 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: that in how we came together with the G seven 380 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: to describe a common economic approach. You saw that in 381 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: living color with the imposition of tariffs on Chinese electric 382 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 3: vehicles just a few months ago. Now it is the 383 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 3: case that we have our own pretty limited trade issues 384 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 3: with the EU that we've tried to manage. 385 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: On civil aircraft. 386 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 3: We actually took a big step forward with the Boeing 387 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 3: Airbus settlement on steel and aluminum. We have continued these 388 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 3: tariff rate quotas, but have not come up with the 389 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: comprehensive agreement we should have. Do I think there was 390 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 3: a missed opportunity there. 391 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: I do do. I think that's. 392 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 3: Entirely on the EU. I mean that's two parties trying 393 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 3: to come to agreement. We didn't quite get there. I 394 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,719 Speaker 3: think as we look forward, that's something we should drive towards. 395 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 3: The single biggest thing though, that I think the US 396 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: and Europe need to work together on in the next 397 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 3: four years is a high standards critical minerals marketplace, so 398 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 3: that we are not dependent on China and giving them 399 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: the capacity to choke off critical minerals that are important 400 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 3: to our national security. And that's something that I have 401 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 3: made the case to the incoming administration to really work on. 402 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 3: We took some modest steps in that direction, but I 403 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 3: think we have a long way to go to be 404 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 3: secure in our supply chains on critical minerals, and I 405 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: would like to see the next team build on the 406 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: work that we began. 407 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: Without going into details of your conversation with your successor, 408 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: do you think they're susceptible to working with the EU? 409 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: We obviously know the rhetoric from the President elect, who 410 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 2: has some strong feelings about the European Union. Do you 411 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 2: think that there is look. 412 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: I think that there is a kind of a. 413 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 3: Inescapable logic to the fact that on critical issues relative 414 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 3: to the competition with China, especially the economic and technology competition, 415 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: that having a common strategy with the key market economies 416 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 3: of the world just puts US in a much stronger 417 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: position to deal effectively with China. And I think we 418 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 3: didn't see as much of that play out in the 419 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 3: first Trump administration. But I think that the experience of 420 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 3: the last eight years, by the way, including COVID and 421 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: what it meant for our supply chains, has had an 422 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 3: impact of the thinking on both sides of the aisle 423 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: about the centrality of working with allies and partners on 424 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 3: supply chain resilience. And so I think there will be 425 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 3: more opportunities to work with the EU in the coming 426 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 3: years than maybe there were in the first two. But 427 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: of course I can't predict exactly how they're going to 428 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 3: rack and stack their priorities. 429 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: One person that's obviously loomed large over the twenty twenty 430 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: four elections and will also do so in the incoming 431 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: administration is Elon Musk. There's been a lot of reporting 432 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 2: that the White House's failure to invite him to a 433 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one EV summit is what contributed to his 434 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: shift against the Democratic Party. So they worked very hard 435 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: to get Donald Trump elected. Looking back and knowing what 436 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 2: you know now, was it a mistake to exclude him 437 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: from some of these White House initiatives given he's trying 438 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: to get far right leaders elected all over Europe. 439 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 3: Look, I'm not going to speak to another person's motives, 440 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 3: and since motive is kind of at the heart of 441 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: that question, it's difficult for me to respond to it, 442 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 3: and also difficult for me to look back to an 443 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 3: EV summit in twenty twenty one and who should or 444 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 3: shouldn't be invited. All I can say is that, from 445 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 3: the point of view of the Biden administration, what we 446 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 3: have tried to do over these four years is work 447 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 3: across the technology industry, as I described earlier, on a 448 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: range of issues that would enhance our national security. And 449 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 3: I think our record of working with technology leaders and 450 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 3: the relationships that we built that I've built something that 451 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 3: I'm proud of and want to carry forward. 452 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: Your boss. President Biden last week said that he would 453 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: have won against Prisident Trump if he had stayed in 454 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: the race, do you agree? And could he have served 455 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: four more years? 456 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 3: So one of the nice things about being National Security 457 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 3: Advisor is I get to not answer. 458 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: Questions about politics. 459 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 2: You're a person in. 460 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: To day would be. 461 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: One of the last few days where I get to 462 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 3: answer a question about politics and say, hey, I'm national 463 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 3: Security advisor. 464 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: So I can't answer that. So like in a week, 465 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: you can probably ask me that question. 466 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: Let me phrase it differently. Obviously, there's been a lot 467 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: of criticism from the American people about, you know, the 468 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: lack of transparency about his mental decline as a national 469 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: security ad One person that was in the room almost always, 470 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: was there ever a concern to you from a national 471 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: security standpoint? 472 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 3: No, absolutely not, And I don't accept the term mental 473 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: decline that you put at the heart of your question. 474 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 3: I sat with President Biden this past year on April 475 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 3: twenty sixth, when Iran launched one hundred ballistic missiles and 476 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 3: two or three hundred armed drones at Israel in one 477 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 3: massive salvo over the course of an evening. I sat 478 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 3: with him as he coordinated and organized an unprecedented coalition 479 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: of countries and directed the American military itself to help 480 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 3: shoot down those projectiles, defending the hell out of Israel, 481 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 3: and then I sat with him late that night as 482 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 3: he spoke with the Prime Minister of Israel about how 483 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 3: Israel would proceed from there. That's just kind of one 484 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 3: example of many I could give about watching the President 485 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 3: inaction in the situation room, equally sitting just yesterday in 486 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 3: the Oval Office as he prepared to talk to Bbnet 487 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 3: Yahoo about closing this hostage deal. This is a person 488 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 3: who has stewarded American policy, both domestic and foreign policy, 489 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 3: in ways that I believe are leaving this country much 490 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 3: stronger than he found it. And the hand we are 491 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 3: giving the next team is a good hand, and that 492 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 3: is because of the leadership with President Biden. 493 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: Your successor. Mike Walls was on the Sunday shows yesterday 494 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 2: and he said on Ukraine that they will ask Ukraine 495 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: to lower its conscription age to eighteen. Obviously, you had 496 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: similar concerns about their manpar shortage. You never demanded anything 497 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,479 Speaker 2: in terms of dumb changing their laws. Why not? And 498 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: do you think this pressure coming from the incoming administration 499 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 2: is going to make as the landscape change his mind 500 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 2: on this now? 501 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, they did change their law. 502 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 3: Their conscription age not to eighteen, as of a year 503 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 3: ago was twenty seven. It's kind of remarkable compared to 504 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 3: how we do things that from eighteen to twenty seven 505 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: year exempt from the draft. 506 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: They lowered it to twenty five. 507 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 3: They've made a series of other changes to their law 508 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 3: to facilitate people under the age of twenty five entering. 509 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 3: But you have to recognize that the manpower issue in 510 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 3: Ukraine is an issue that has evolved over time. It 511 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 3: has become more acute over the course of the past year, 512 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: and the need for Ukraine to be able to fully 513 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 3: populate its brigades and battalions as we have flowed in 514 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 3: a massive quantity of the munitions and military equipment they need, 515 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: it has grown and we've made no bones about that, 516 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 3: and we have briefed the new team on that. So 517 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 3: let's see what happens now on a going forward basis. 518 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,239 Speaker 3: That's ultimately a sovereign decision Ukraine is going to have 519 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 3: to make. But we have been crystal clear, including publicly, 520 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,239 Speaker 3: that manpower is an acute concern and in something that 521 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 3: Ukraine will have to address, even as we do our 522 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 3: part to get them the munitions that they need. 523 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: Of all the things that the incoming president has promised 524 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 2: to do in the foreign policy and national security space, 525 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 2: what makes you the most nervous that keeps you up 526 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 2: at night. 527 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: That's a good question, you know, having watched the president, 528 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 3: the incoming president in his first term, I guess what 529 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: I would say is, we don't know how rhetoric on 530 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 3: the campaign trail or rhetoric in a transition will translate 531 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 3: into reality of policy. And so one of the lessons 532 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 3: I took away from that is let's wait and see, 533 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 3: let's actually see what happens. So I am not going 534 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,239 Speaker 3: to lie awake at night kind of waiting. I am 535 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 3: going to see and assess and then make my own 536 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 3: judgments on that basis. But I also have sat in 537 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 3: a very difficult seat for four years and have obviously 538 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 3: been subject to a huge amount of armchair quarterbacking on 539 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 3: every issue under the sun. That's just in the nature 540 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 3: of the jobs. That's by no means a complaint, that's 541 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 3: just reality on how it should be. The people who 542 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: occupy these positions should be held accountable by the press, 543 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 3: by the American people. But it definitely makes me someone 544 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 3: who is going to be way more cautious in criticizing 545 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 3: anything an incoming team does, because one thing I will 546 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 3: say is that when you sit in my chair, you 547 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: recognize that national security decision making is imperfect people with 548 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 3: imperfect information facing very imperfect choices, and so at no 549 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,719 Speaker 3: time are you going to get perfect results. And so 550 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 3: I will have I will, and I've said this. 551 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: To Mike Waltz. 552 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 3: I just have a huge amount of sympathy and goodwill 553 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 3: towards the people who will occupy these jobs, because they're 554 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: coming into the world at a time of profound change, 555 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 3: in transition, where the post Cold War era is over 556 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: and there is an intense competition underway for what comes next, 557 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: and it's going to be difficult, and it has been difficult. 558 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 3: And the real question is is America's hand getting stronger 559 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 3: in our adversary's hands getting weaker. I think the answer 560 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 3: to that question on the objective evidence is yes. And yes, 561 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 3: that's what the incoming team's going to have to keep 562 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 3: working with. 563 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: And I'm going to root for their success because their 564 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: success is our success. 565 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: Looking at the clock and knowing that we're out of time, 566 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: maybe let's leave on this note, and you have to 567 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: be short what are you most proud of and want 568 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: to be remembered for. 569 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: That's a great question. 570 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: I'm both Minnesota and Irish Catholic, and so we only 571 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 3: like to look at like the darkness and not things 572 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 3: we're happy about. I also believe that when someone says 573 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 3: something nice to you, they automatically have to be full