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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Carbon Bros. I'm Amy Westervelt.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Daniel Penny and we are back after a

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Speaker 2: little hiatus to bring you our long awaited mail bag episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we got so many good responses from people. We

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Speaker 1: got voice notes, we got emails, and they're all over

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. So excited to talk about them here.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, some of these folks are in the climate movement.

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Speaker 2: Others are people who are interested in the problems of

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Speaker 2: toxic masculinity. And yeah, had some ideas for us, shared

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Speaker 2: their experiences, their questions. Some of the questions are more

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Speaker 2: comments than questions. We like those two.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're all really interesting and like really different perspectives.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, our listeners are smart and thoughtful people.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for listening guys.

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Speaker 2: So, without further ado, let's get into it. So this

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Speaker 2: question comes from Trevor Leman or Layman. We do not

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Speaker 2: know how to pronounce your last name, who is a

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Speaker 2: university career counselor, humanist chaplain and the president of Climate

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Speaker 2: Informed Counselors Chapter of the Canadian Counselors and Psychotherapists Association.

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Speaker 1: That's right, So we didn't even just get people from

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Speaker 1: one country. We've got a global response.

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Speaker 2: That's right, We're worldwide. And Drummer's question was, I'm wondering

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Speaker 2: if vocational psychology and theories such as Bluestein's Psychology of

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Speaker 2: Working theory is ever explored as part of the de

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Speaker 2: radicalizing process in our current climate space. Though there is

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Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about religious and internet radicalization, I'm

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Speaker 2: wondering if teaching unionization slash labor organizing, as well as

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Speaker 2: community building more generally can be incorporated into the present

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Speaker 2: moment to alleviate tension through social change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I loved this because I was like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: have not thought about this at all, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's a good idea. Just a quick I'll be honest,

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Speaker 1: I had to google bluestein Psychology of Working theory. It's

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Speaker 1: basically like a perspective on career counseling that brings in

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Speaker 1: like the entire personhood of someone, like where they're coming

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Speaker 1: from in life, like what is their class and recent

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Speaker 1: gender background, or ability status or immigration status, and like

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Speaker 1: how those things intersect with the work that they do

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Speaker 1: or the work that they're able to do, And like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I've heard so many conversations about retraining the workforce as

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Speaker 1: part of like a just transition in terms of like

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Speaker 1: skills and matching people with new jobs. But I have

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Speaker 1: not heard much at all about the psychological component to that,

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Speaker 1: or about this idea of like labor organizing as commune

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Speaker 1: unity building and how that kind of comes into the

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Speaker 1: climate movement. So yeah, I thought it was interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think we do touch on this

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Speaker 2: a little bit in a way with the discussion in

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Speaker 2: episode three around oil workers in Louisiana and who are

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Speaker 2: all getting involved in carbon pipelines and this allegiance to

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Speaker 2: the fossil fuel industry and the way in which their

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Speaker 2: life opportunities are shaped almost completely by their regions dependence

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Speaker 2: on the industry.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I haven't seen much about sort of like

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Speaker 1: taking this kind of approach to dealing with it aside

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Speaker 1: from more of a skills based approach, except for actually

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Speaker 1: the I and Louisiana that you talked to did really

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Speaker 1: get into like how do we connect these new jobs

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Speaker 1: and new skills with like the identity that these people

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Speaker 1: have and the communities that they've been in for generations

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Speaker 1: and you know, like how do we bring people in

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Speaker 1: without making them feel like villainized or disrespected or you know,

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Speaker 1: all of those kinds of things too. I just think

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Speaker 1: it's it's interesting. So anyway, very curious to hear if,

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Speaker 1: like other people are working on this, and also Trevor,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening, if you start applying this in your work,

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Speaker 1: we'd like to hear about.

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Speaker 2: It interesting, tell us how it goes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, this next one is from al Wittle and

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Speaker 1: this is a voice note, So we're going to play

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Speaker 1: you a little snippet of it here and then we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm well, I am basically spend about thirty is

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Speaker 3: working in the construction and architecture industry, means I'm always

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Speaker 3: kind of in a fairly male dominated environment. We have

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Speaker 3: to figure out how you get environmental issues to relate

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Speaker 3: personally to guys. Sometimes you get people who say I

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Speaker 3: don't care. Quite often, to be honest, I find avoiding

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Speaker 3: trigger words that immediately put the barriers up in words

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Speaker 3: like climate change, so it becomes more a case of

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Speaker 3: maneuvering the conversation. One way I can try and explain

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Speaker 3: is a personal thing where I found you certainly don't

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Speaker 3: tell male colleagues in the average office that you're vegan.

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Speaker 3: That seems to be an immediate trigger to some people's morality.

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Speaker 3: But I was working at one place and it turned

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Speaker 3: out another guy was. He was sort of fending off

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Speaker 3: a few pointed questions, and when I wandered by, it

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Speaker 3: was a case of, ah, you're vegan. Oh sound mate.

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Speaker 3: You know that's good. I feel I've got a brother

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Speaker 3: from another mother here, you know. And before we know it,

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Speaker 3: we're chatting about it quite happily. And then other people

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Speaker 3: are actually starting to soften to it, you know, and

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Speaker 3: they hopefully realize that they're not going to have, you know,

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Speaker 3: my life choices or this particular gents life choices sort

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Speaker 3: of forced on them. It was just a bit of

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Speaker 3: humor and things begin to change. I guess another thing

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Speaker 3: that is worth mentioning is dealing with people on an

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Speaker 3: individual level, rather than trying to take on groups that

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Speaker 3: you can actually sort of involve yourself and get interested

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Speaker 3: in people's decisions and choices and have a far more

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Speaker 3: sort of meaningful conversation.

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Speaker 1: This is the type of individual action that I feel

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Speaker 1: like is actually helpful and necessary within climate spaces like

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Speaker 1: individual action often gets boiled down to just what we

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Speaker 1: buy or like recycling. But it's like, actually, these kinds

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Speaker 1: of conversations or like modeling certain behaviors all of like

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Speaker 1: the social science research on you know, how how we

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Speaker 1: pick up different ideas and behaviors from each other. It's

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Speaker 1: like this stuff. It's not oh, like so and so

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Speaker 1: has cool bamboo straws.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so like.

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Speaker 1: As much as because because sometimes I feel like when

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Speaker 1: we talk about, you know, the very systemic efforts to

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Speaker 1: obstruct climate policy, some people take that as like it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what I do individually, you know, either in

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Speaker 1: sort of a defeatist and Dumer kind of way, or

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Speaker 1: as a as a sort of like, oh, we need

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Speaker 1: to be focused on the oil companies, and I kind

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Speaker 1: of feel like, look, there are various ways that individual

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Speaker 1: action can be helpful, and to me, actually like this

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Speaker 1: seems like one of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, this is doing politics on the community

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Speaker 2: level or the individual level, and the right is very

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Speaker 2: comfortable doing that, you know, Like correct, I'm very happy

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Speaker 2: to think.

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Speaker 1: There's no conversation too small.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, there's no conversation too small that can't be redirected

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Speaker 2: to right wing talking points or you know, especially like

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Speaker 2: the religious right. I mean, they spend so much energy

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Speaker 2: personally proselytizing, right, and trying to convert people one by one,

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Speaker 2: and it adds up, right. So I'm not saying that

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Speaker 2: you should spend your life as a you know, a

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Speaker 2: zealot of climate trying to make everyone in your personal

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Speaker 2: life talk to you about climate change. But I do think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that there's absolutely room for redirecting conversations and as he says,

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Speaker 2: you know, avoiding the third rails, Yeah, you know, that's

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Speaker 2: that's the.

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Speaker 1: Things that like immediately make people defensive. And yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: the next one, Oh yeah, I want to have you

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Speaker 1: read maybe just read this whole one because it's pretty short.

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Speaker 2: This is from Dan Stein. He is the founder and

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Speaker 2: executive director of Giving Green, which is a group that

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Speaker 2: advises on climate philanthropy, helping donors to navigate a complex

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Speaker 2: landscape and direct their resources for maximum impact. So here's

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Speaker 2: Dan's question. The question is about intersectionality. Many climate groups

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Speaker 2: on the left Sunrise Movement is a great example, have

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Speaker 2: really leaned into intersectionality, meaning they also work towards many

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Speaker 2: other non climate progressive goals. This has strengths and weaknesses,

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Speaker 2: and I think the climate community endlessly debates whether this

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Speaker 2: is a good idea. It seems like one of the

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Speaker 2: ways that the manisphere has exploited this is by tying

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Speaker 2: climate to other left wing ideas that have less popular support,

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Speaker 2: like trans writes. When listening to the podcast, I felt

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Speaker 2: like it was a good argument for intersectionality equals bad.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, one could argue that the right

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Speaker 2: is just doing intersectionality as well and having success, i e.

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Speaker 2: Tying men's rights to climate. I don't have really any

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Speaker 2: answers here, but I'd like to hear you smart people

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Speaker 2: discuss whether these recent trends can shed light on the

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Speaker 2: debate and whether leaning into intersectionality on the progressive left

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Speaker 2: is a good or bad tactic.

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Speaker 4: Oo.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I've been thinking about this a lot lately because

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Speaker 1: I feel like there is this like Ezra Kline wing

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Speaker 1: of the Democrats right now who are like pretty consistently

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Speaker 1: making the argument that intersectionality is a bad approach, And

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Speaker 1: I would like to offer a counter argument to that.

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Speaker 1: And it goes like this. The reason that democrats arguing

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Speaker 1: for things like trans rights and abortion rights and things

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Speaker 1: like that have fallen flat, in my opinion, is that

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Speaker 1: they haven't actually advocated for anyone's rights. What they've done

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Speaker 1: is rap neoliberalism in the language of equality and ignored

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Speaker 1: everyone's like actual problems. So like, yeah, if you are,

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Speaker 1: you know, wrapping yourself in a rainbow flag while not

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Speaker 1: addressing you know, wage stagnation and inflation and all of

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Speaker 1: these things that people are dealing with in their daily lives,

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Speaker 1: you seem like an elitist, ton daff person. That does

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Speaker 1: not mean, which is how I feel like so many

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Speaker 1: democratic pundits have taken it that, like people are mad

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Speaker 1: about trance writes, I don't actually think that if people's

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Speaker 1: lives were working, you'd be able to get this many

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Speaker 1: people riled up about trans rites, Like is there an

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Speaker 1: underlying hatred that can be tapped into? Of course, can

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Speaker 1: you tap into that hatred when people are doing well

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Speaker 1: a lot harder, like a lot harder. So this idea

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Speaker 1: that like, oh, we got too woke and that's like

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Speaker 1: the problem, I just don't think that that's true. And

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Speaker 1: I think the biggest issue is that the progressive left

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Speaker 1: hasn't really done intersectionality, hasn't done it like authentically, hasn't

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Speaker 1: done it well, and hasn't actually addressed the biggest issue

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Speaker 1: that's facing, like you know, across all of those groups,

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Speaker 1: which is basic civil rights and class issues. In my opinion,

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Speaker 1: the biggest blind spot for both the Democrats and the

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Speaker 1: climate movement is class. I cannot tell you how many

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Speaker 1: times I have been in a room full of Climate

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Speaker 1: Foundation people who I'm like, oh, like, these people have

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Speaker 1: no idea what it's like to look in their pantry

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Speaker 1: and be like, how many different ways can I make

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Speaker 1: lentils until I get paid? I'm just like, you guys

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Speaker 1: have no idea like I have. I had the experience,

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Speaker 1: like as I was, you know, working on climate journalism

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Speaker 1: stuff of like my having to like distract my kids

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Speaker 1: while my car is being repossessed out of the driveway,

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Speaker 1: and like, I'm just like, there's like a very very

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Speaker 1: slim percentage of people within this movement who like can

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Speaker 1: relate to that in any way, and that is a problem.

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Speaker 2: So gonna I'm gonna kind of flip it. I actually,

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Speaker 2: in a sense, agree that intersectionality is bad. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that intersectionality is actually a very useful basis for politics,

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Speaker 2: because it seems, at least as it's played out in

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Speaker 2: not the last ten years to become a series of

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Speaker 2: witness tests and like purity tests, where like yes, if and.

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Speaker 1: Completely just identity politics, and that's.

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Speaker 2: It, exactly. If you want to be on the team,

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Speaker 2: then like you have to agree with A, you have

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Speaker 2: to grow B, you have to group see, and it

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Speaker 2: becomes a very inward facing posture that makes it very

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Speaker 2: difficult to bring in so called political pendants who are

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Speaker 2: a third of the electorate in the US and a

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Speaker 2: lot of people have like a mixed bag of political

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Speaker 2: beliefs and opinions and some kind of problematic social beliefs.

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Speaker 1: Just like like the serving of ignorance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, you know, like.

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Speaker 1: We can't we don't know what we don't know, and

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Speaker 1: it should be okay to make mistakes and not be

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Speaker 1: like papily or life ended.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to flip it and say, I actually

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Speaker 2: think like solidarity is a much better political concept for

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Speaker 2: the climate movement and for all the movements of the

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Speaker 2: left to start thinking about. Of course, you know, we're

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Speaker 2: at the low water mark for union density in America,

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Speaker 2: and I think that that erosion of people with experience

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Speaker 2: being a part of organized labor is a big part

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Speaker 2: of why we've lost our concept of solidarity, and like

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Speaker 2: what solidarity actually means. You don't have to be in

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Speaker 2: total alignment with someone to take part in an action

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Speaker 2: of solidarity to support them, because it's an understanding that

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Speaker 2: like me having your back means that you have my back.

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Speaker 2: It's not out of charity. It's not just because it's

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Speaker 2: the right thing to do. It's a strategic and kind

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Speaker 2: of collective politics where like we you know, you recognize

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Speaker 2: your mutual interdependence and the fact that your strength only

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Speaker 2: comes through concerted action and.

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Speaker 1: Your shared enemy. We're all like pointing everyone at these

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Speaker 1: different like like groups that don't actually have power. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like yeah.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, let's bring back solidarity. It is time you

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Speaker 2: need to ditch intersectionality. I think it's an exhausted political concept.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I mean there is no threat more

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Speaker 2: all encompassing, more totalizing than the climate crisis. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: it's one that will definitely demand solidarity as things start

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Speaker 2: happening in your community, in your state, in your country

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Speaker 2: and all around the world.

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Speaker 1: Right, solidarity, which is, to your point, an adaptation strategy

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Speaker 1: as much as it is, you know, a political strategy.

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Speaker 1: It's like you're going to need. We're going to need

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Speaker 1: solidarity and community building to survive the climate crisis and

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Speaker 1: to fight against the various things that are that are

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Speaker 1: coming you know, along with it. Plus like you're just

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Speaker 1: not like you're never going to win against billionaires and

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Speaker 1: huge global industries without solidarity. Like people who only identify

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Speaker 1: themselves as being concerned about climate are a small group

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Speaker 1: of people, but like we know that globally, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what did this Yale thing say? Eighty nine percent

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Speaker 1: of people, yes, want their governments to act on climate, right,

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Speaker 1: so there is there's like actually a majority.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit lower here in the US. I

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Speaker 2: think we're I think we're in the seventies here, but.

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Speaker 1: But still, like because of all of the sps exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: I love I like this. I like this, like this

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Speaker 1: idea of shifting the focus to solidarity. It feels better,

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Speaker 1: It doesn't put people on the defensive. It allows for

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Speaker 1: you know, people to be at varying points along the spectrum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, is there any progressive think tanks who want

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Speaker 2: to come pay me to expound on this idea? Please

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Speaker 2: hit me up.

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Speaker 1: Higher, Daniel, Yeah, yeah, I really I like that idea

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Speaker 1: a lot Awesome, we solved it. Good job. Okay. Next,

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Speaker 1: we have a friend of the pod, let's.

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Speaker 2: Say friend friend of the pod.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he actually so you know what, he's the person

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Speaker 1: who told me about Non Toxic. First I met him

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Speaker 1: at a conference and he was like, oh, you should

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Speaker 1: listen to this podcast. And then actually immediately Lucy von

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Speaker 1: Sturmer also was like you should listen to this podcast.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, everybody's telling me about this podcast. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but yes, Klumhood works for the Center for Countering Digital Hate,

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Speaker 1: and he's sent in a voice message that we're going

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Speaker 1: to play right now.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Carvin bros. This is Cala, my work at the

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Speaker 4: Center for councer in Digital Hate, where I look at

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Speaker 4: stuff to do with online masculinity content, climate misinformation as well.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things I was thinking about while

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Speaker 4: listening to the series and learning a lot was how

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Speaker 4: primary is masculinity as a lever through which climate deniers

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Speaker 4: persuade young men. Is it the culture war or substantial issue?

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Speaker 4: She's like, climate come first? Or is it the masculinity?

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Speaker 4: Stuff comes first? Is a way into these men to

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Speaker 4: persuade them on a wider range of issues.

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Speaker 1: I actually think This is a really interesting question, like

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Speaker 1: what comes first? And I do wonder if like the

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Speaker 1: masculinity stuff is a bit of a like lever or

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Speaker 1: like an on ramp to the other stuff. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we saw this in Kayla's research too for media Matters, right,

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Speaker 1: that like these are for the most part, a these

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Speaker 1: are not like a lot of the climate deny or

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Speaker 1: content is not like just that it's like in a

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Speaker 1: comedy podcast or in a whatever like a wellness influencer

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Speaker 1: podcast or whatever, and like they're coming there for a

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Speaker 1: certain type of like male experience, not for climate denial.

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Speaker 2: But as we saw with your investigation of Michael Schellenberger,

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Speaker 2: there are people who go from climate to masculinity. There

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Speaker 2: is as these two groups, climate deniers and the manosphere

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Speaker 2: become more and more intertwined, there are people who are

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Speaker 2: drifting from the climate side and getting in on the

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Speaker 2: masculinity grift. But I do think you know, to your point, yes,

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Speaker 2: for the average consumer, it starts with you know, fairly

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Speaker 2: benign masculinity questions. Most people aren't thinking about climate one

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Speaker 2: way or another. There are very few people who are

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Speaker 2: worrying about like what you know, whether the ocean is

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Speaker 2: becoming too acidic. But there are a lot of men

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Speaker 2: who are worried about whether they're manly enough, right, Like

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Speaker 2: that's a sort of foundational part of like male psychology,

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Speaker 2: that your masculinity is always shaky. It's like needs constant

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Speaker 2: affirmation and firming up, and that you know, you need

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Speaker 2: to seek that instruction or validation or have images reflected

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Speaker 2: back to you that teach you or kind of put

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Speaker 2: down other alternatives. And I think, really, that's what's driving

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Speaker 2: people into the funnel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. I really think so. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's see Laura Supple isn't next. So this one does

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Speaker 1: a voice note again.

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Speaker 2: High drilled team. This is Laura in Denver.

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Speaker 5: I absolutely loved the Carbon Members miniseries, but one thing

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Speaker 5: where I was like.

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Speaker 2: Ah, how could you not talk about this?

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Speaker 5: A basic premise of extractive capitalism is this idea of

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Speaker 5: the zero sum game that if one is getting something,

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Speaker 5: that means someone else is missing out, and everything is

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Speaker 5: about competition and there's no room for cooperation. And I

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Speaker 5: think that a lot of movements have brought into the

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Speaker 5: logic of a zero sum game that if we're talking

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Speaker 5: about climate, we can't be talking about trans rights, or

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Speaker 5: if we're talking about water and clean water, then we

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Speaker 5: can't be talking about human rights. And we missed the

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Speaker 5: fact that all of our movements are fighting different heads

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Speaker 5: of the same monster.

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Speaker 1: I think this actually kind of gets at the solidarity

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Speaker 1: thing that you were just talking about, that it's not

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Speaker 1: a zero sum game of like if we talk about

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Speaker 1: trans stuff, then we can't talk about climate stuff, or

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Speaker 1: if we talk about women's rights, then we can't talk

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Speaker 1: about solar panels or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Though I think, you know, interestingly, from inside the left,

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Speaker 2: it can feel like a zero sum game because you're

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Speaker 2: all competing for the same dollars from the same donors.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, there is this sense that like, well, issue

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Speaker 2: du jour is X, so I'm putting my I don't

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Speaker 2: mean X. The company you know that is that was

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Speaker 2: an issue dare. I think it's it's sort of like

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Speaker 2: lost its luster and now people are like, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm actually more interested in AI. We're going to put

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Speaker 2: our money. Like the fickleness of funding, yes, is a

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Speaker 2: real thing, which problem and and so I do think

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Speaker 2: this sense of like all the different like interest groups

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Speaker 2: are fighting among each other for attention or for money,

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Speaker 2: that is is kind of a real dynamic.

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Speaker 1: This is a very key difference between the left and

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Speaker 1: the right. This funding problem. Like I I spent so

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Speaker 1: I have a book coming out next year, and I

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time researching like how different corporate

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Speaker 1: interests and like billionaire interest kind of shaped the information

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Speaker 1: environment and one of the one of like the focal

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Speaker 1: points think tanks, And so I spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time in a bunch of different archives looking at like

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Speaker 1: you know, letters that Charles Koch wrote way back when

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Speaker 1: and things like that. And it's very very clear to

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Speaker 1: me that like there is a long view and a

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Speaker 1: real sense of like investing in a talent pipeline and

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Speaker 1: really understanding that like, oh we need to actually shift

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Speaker 1: the broader like landscape in which people are just thinking

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Speaker 1: about things in general that just like and just like

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Speaker 1: long term funding commitments that do not exist on the left,

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Speaker 1: certainly not in climate spaces that I've seen. They have

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Speaker 1: like a real magpie shiny penny problem in the like

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Speaker 1: left funding space where yeah, it's just like ooh this

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Speaker 1: ooh that I talked to someone the other day who

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Speaker 1: like told me that they're found there, like nonprofit organization

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Speaker 1: as a response to Kayla's Media Matters paper that had

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Speaker 1: all the likes, that graph with all the circles on

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Speaker 1: it that showed like.

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Speaker 2: Showed the political orientation of the different podcasts and what

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Speaker 2: their listener count was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that like and this is like a large nonprofit

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Speaker 1: organization in response to just that one paper, which to

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Speaker 1: me is not a knock on Kayla at all, but

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Speaker 1: like was not new information. Everyone was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: and they got rid of their entire like content and

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Speaker 1: media team to like focus that budget solely on influencers.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen like a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 1: organizations are like, oh my god, what's our influencer strategy, Like,

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Speaker 1: what's our you know, podcast strategy? This that the other right,

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Speaker 1: I'm just like.

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Speaker 2: And you saw that Taylor Lawrence story, but she wrote

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Speaker 2: her wired about like the democratic dark money in oh yeah, influencers,

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Speaker 2: And then they're all like kind of coordinated, like, so

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Speaker 2: do we take these seven thousand bucks a post or whatever?

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Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, totally. To me, that's not like the lesson

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Speaker 1: to be learned from the right. But I feel like

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Speaker 1: that is often happening in progressive spaces and issue spaces

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Speaker 1: like climate where it's like, you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: just this like very reactive, like whatever the most recent

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Speaker 1: thing has that the right has done, like even actually

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Speaker 1: in response to all like the campus activism that Turning

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Speaker 1: Point USA was doing, right, Like there's this huge thing

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Speaker 1: now like oh, like how do we get young people

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Speaker 1: and like how do we recapture young men? All that,

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Speaker 1: And I'm like that took like ten to fifteen years

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Speaker 1: of like showing up on campuses. Miley yan Anopolis was

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Speaker 1: doing it like before Turning Point existed, you know, Like

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Speaker 1: it's like that.

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Speaker 2: Didn't just have That's how I got my start as

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Speaker 2: a as a cultural critic, was writing about Milo Milo.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like that didn't just happen, Like that was a

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Speaker 1: strategy and it was heavily funded and supported for over

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Speaker 1: a decade before it like bore fruit. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know if there's anything to compare it to on the

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Speaker 1: left that has had like that level of which is

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Speaker 1: so funny because like if you live, if you spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time in writing spaces, which I do,

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Speaker 1: to just listen to what's going on, they're really convinced

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Speaker 1: that there's this like super well funded, long term culture

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Speaker 1: war strategy like Leonard Leo's whole new thing right now

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Speaker 1: is this like cultural organization that's fighting against that, And like,

435
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, I read the I like I listened to

436
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: these conversations and watch these presentations, and I'm like, I

437
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: really wish that, like anyone on the left was remotely

438
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 1: as organized is they're afraid of us being.

439
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: Our advice to avoid this problem, donors, ye, stay in

440
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: your lane, keep supporting the cause that you care about

441
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: and that you got you started in the first place,

442
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: and like.

443
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: The strategy and methods that you actually know something about too.

444
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: You know what I mean is like and give people

445
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: time for it to work. No strategy works in two years.

446
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: Like that, that's not a thing. Okay, rant over.

447
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: And fund our endeavors. That's our last piece of advice.

448
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: The next piece.

449
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: Of feedback came from Florent Cant about the peak oil movement.

450
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: So she writes, HI, love the show. In one of

451
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: the episodes, I think you mentioned peakism as a right

452
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: wing movement, But according to Matthew Schneider Myerson's surveys, peak

453
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: oil believers, sociology is predominantly left wing, not right wing,

454
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: although it has ties to liberal tarianism. Too, So I

455
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: like was very happy to get this because it prompted

456
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: me to read Matthew Schneider Myerson's book, which is called

457
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: Peak Oil, Apocalyptic Environmentalism and Libertarian Political Culture, and it

458
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: is fascinating. And also I will like I our reference

459
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: to peakism came from Hannah Morris's more recent research on

460
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: this subject, and she did not describe it as like

461
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: being rooted in right wing ideology. So if that is

462
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: it's become a right wing, it's.

463
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 6: Become that right exactly right exactly so like if we

464
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 6: presented it that way, that's my fault because we just

465
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 6: kind of started at the point where it was already libertarian.

466
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: What what Schneider Myerson does in his book is like

467
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: show how these mostly men who were in many cases

468
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: like kind of counterculture nineteen sixes type liberals really like

469
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: took the idea of like going your own way and

470
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: that type of freedom, and like that morphed into libertarianism

471
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: and the Tea Party and whatnot in the US, which

472
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: I think is super super super interesting and again kind

473
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: of an example of this horseshoe theory being where it's

474
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: like this can swing in different directions.

475
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: In the case of the countercultural left to the right.

476
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: There's a lot of research, especially focusing on California as

477
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: the epicenter of this, where people went from kind of

478
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: like separatism or back to land communities into the tech

479
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: space and bringing that thinking of rejecting traditional boundaries of

480
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: the liberal order in them becoming this kind of like

481
00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: libertarian project, which I think is is quite interesting. Your point. This,

482
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: this concept of peak oil starts as a concern among

483
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: the left similar to the population bomb, which we talked about,

484
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: too much demand, not enough supply, and society we're going

485
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: to like hit a cliff and society is going to

486
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: explode exactly.

487
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you absolutely see this like in the

488
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: roots of the tech industry and sort of the techno

489
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: or like cyber libertarianism that we get today. So, oh god,

490
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if we should do this letter or not.

491
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: I'll read it.

492
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: I can.

493
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: I can afford to be canceled. Okay, I won't say

494
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: who this comes from. I'm going to protect the identity

495
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: of the person. And also, FBI, who's listening this is parody?

496
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: This is yes, So this listener who may or may

497
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: not exist, wrote Hi, you asked for solutions, not discussed

498
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: on the fourth episode of Carbon Bros. And I have

499
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: one that I totally understand if you don't, But a

500
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: right wing influencer was defeated in a debate recently, and

501
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: a lot of people are cheering. The method was a

502
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,239
Speaker 2: bit unusual and usually preferred by the right, but I

503
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: think with the right messaging it could help get men

504
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: on board. Sorry if this is the wrong address, I

505
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: couldn't find one in the show notes.

506
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 1: Wow, I do appreciate the way this is framed as

507
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: a debate defeat.

508
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: Is the ultimate defeat. Yes, Carbon Bros. Is not endorsing assassination,

509
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: let's be clear. But I do think you know, even

510
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: though this is written in a very tongue in cheek way,

511
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: it does raise an important point, which is, you know,

512
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: we've been doing this show. We've talked a little bit

513
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: about political violence on the part of the right against

514
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: climate pro testers. Obviously you've done way more work with

515
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: drilled in prior seasons on violence committed usually by the state,

516
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: or on the state, on behalf of oil companies. Right,

517
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, this is a whole other animal, and we're

518
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: living in an era yeah of just really alarming political

519
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: violence committed by individuals who you know, this question of

520
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: like right left, Like we don't even know that the

521
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: shooter seems to just be like internet pilled.

522
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: Right and actually to have quite a lot of like

523
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: confusion and complex ideas about like gender roles and identity

524
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: and what's happening with the country and all of these

525
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: kinds of things too, where it's like, I don't know,

526
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: I feel like it's really it's also I mean, god,

527
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: there's so much like propaganda and misinformation and flowing around

528
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: this that like it's very hard to tell. Charlie Kirk, Yeah,

529
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: like it's hard to tell, you know, what this person believed.

530
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: And then you know, there's a lot of conspiracy theories

531
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: around him not even being like him being a patsy,

532
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: And I mean it's like it runs the gamut so like,

533
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: and I have not seen great evidence of anything, so

534
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 1: I'm sort of like reserving judgment for when we know more.

535
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: But the conversations around it, which actually reminds me a

536
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: lot of the conversations around Luigi Manjoni and that whole incident. Yeah,

537
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: like that was also really interesting because he is another

538
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: like not explicitly right or left person. I think a

539
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: lot of commentators are missing that, Like a lot of

540
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: younger people don't identify in that way and don't have

541
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: these very explicit lines between the.

542
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: Two vibes based.

543
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, a friend of mine was the NPR reporter who

544
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: got like assigned to covering Luigi Manjoni completely like coincidentally,

545
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: she was on when Luigi the Manjoni thing happened, and

546
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: so she's now like the person who does like has

547
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: kept on that.

548
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the case, yeah, because that still hasn't gone

549
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: to trial. Like no, I know.

550
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: So she'll put little Easter eggs in her post for

551
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: us where she's like, check out the picture of Luigi's shoes.

552
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: Okay, nice one, what this writer, this writer brings up.

553
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: Anarchists had this whole idea of doing political assassinations in

554
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. It was called

555
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: propaganda of the deed right, and it didn't really work

556
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 2: out well for anarchism in the United States. It led

557
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 2: to a lot of people being jailed and killed, and

558
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: the political philosophy of anarchism was really marginalized on the

559
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: left in the wake of that violence. So I like,

560
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: I think it's we're living in this era of insane

561
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: violence and simultaneously political stasis, like the government is literally

562
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: shut down as we're recording this episode, and that leads

563
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 2: people to feel like they have no option but to

564
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: take matters into their own hands. You know. I also

565
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 2: just watched One Battle after Another last week. Oh yeah,

566
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: that movie, which you know, focuses on a left wing

567
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: terror cell who are hunted by Colonel Lockjob played by

568
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: Sean Penn. And it doesn't it doesn't work out well

569
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: for the French seventy five, which is the name of.

570
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: This terrorrist so like and also a great drink.

571
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, everyone has an amazing name in

572
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: this film. Yeah, so, I, at least personally am not.

573
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 2: Based on my cursory study of history and my fear

574
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: of being arrested or murdered, do not think that the

575
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 2: left should pursue this strategy. And yeah, you know it's already.

576
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: I think it's being wielded by the right as a

577
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 2: cudgel to crack down on legitimate civil disobedience and dissent

578
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: in a way that's truly alarming. And I think, you know,

579
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: including climate there are groups who are getting you know,

580
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: threatened to have their nonprofit status taken away because they

581
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: supposedly somehow advocate for left idea that the Trump administration

582
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: is now trying to classifies terrorism.

583
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: They're doing that even with the No Kings protest. Like

584
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw Mike Johnson talking about

585
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: those protests that are coming up, and he was like,

586
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, oh, it's an it's a hate America protests

587
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: that's all like Antifa and this that. You know, it's

588
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: like and pro Hamas, like it's there. You know, they've

589
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: kind of like set the groundworks and then they're going

590
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: to use that to justify you know, sending in the

591
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: National Guard and locking people up and all of that stuff.

592
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: The one thing I was going to say about the

593
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: political violence stuff is that there's a researcher that I

594
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: talked to like regularly for updates on like what's happening

595
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: with repression of protests, you know, because she studies this

596
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: and like studies the history of it and like how

597
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: it fits in with social change and all of that stuff.

598
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: And she was telling like she does, Dana Fisher is

599
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: her name. She shows up at protests and she surveys

600
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: people about a bunch of different things, and then she

601
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: sounds like.

602
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 2: An right, Yeah, and someone started like asking me questions.

603
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: Why do you want to know? Actually, I do wonder

604
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: how much that shapes the answers that she could like

605
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: before yeah, especially now, I don't know, But anyway, before

606
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: the Charlie kirkshooting and before the ice, like before these

607
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: like national guards going into cities and stuff. Even then

608
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: like the very first snow King's protest and even like

609
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: some of the ones that were happening in January and

610
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: December too, she was finding just like a very like

611
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: a clear trend of like people increasingly either like like

612
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: increasingly saying not that they themselves wanted to engage in

613
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: political violence, but that they were concerned that that would

614
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: be the only thing.

615
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 2: That would drive change recourse.

616
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, that like and that they just had It's

617
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: sort of like dwindling hopes for some kind of a

618
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 1: solution that didn't involve that to this like extreme situation

619
00:39:58,480 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: in the US.

620
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: So how should we wrap this thing up? Amy?

621
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, wrap up. That's it for this time.

622
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 1: We will have a bonus episode for you next week

623
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: as well, and hopefully we'll have more stuff coming for

624
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: you soon.

625
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening to Carbon Bros. And thank

626
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 2: you to everyone who sent us a question. Yeah, it

627
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: makes us feel good to know got some listeners out there,

628
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: and I want to say twelve of our listeners stay

629
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 2: safe if you choose to engage in some kind of

630
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: protests in the coming weeks and months, to take proper precautions.

631
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 2: Get on signal.

632
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, get on signal. You know, maybe start planning

633
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: an exit strategy for your time outside the US. Just

634
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: saying not a bad idea.

635
00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 2: We talk to other people. Be safe out there, and yeah,

636
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: yeah there'll be there'll be more coming from UH Drilled

637
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: and and perhaps from Carbon Bros. In the months to come.

638
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: M