Speaker 1: For the kid. It's like, I don't feel like walking
Speaker 1: the dogs today. It's like, yeah, let me see you
Speaker 1: stand outside until two o'clock in the morning and subarctic
Speaker 1: conditions cutting out cod tongues, you know. For that's such
Speaker 1: a punk. Pulled the lever for the parliament, went outside,
Speaker 1: smoked one dude. That thing must have been in there
Speaker 1: for twenty years. I took like one drag and I
Speaker 1: think the whole cigarettes just went up in that place.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, come up to the Pilaski. Man, everybody's just
Speaker 1: got motto on their fly reel. I always feel like
Speaker 1: it's too difficult of a not it's actually pretty easy.
Speaker 1: Oh well, all right, and good morning to gendered anglers,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Bent, the fishing podcast that prefers to
Speaker 1: wet its knots with someone else's saliva before sinching them tight.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Surmelli. That's how you get the COVID and
Speaker 1: I'm hating salmac. Yes you are? You are still hating?
Speaker 1: Uh yeah? And yeah today, how are you feeling better?
Speaker 1: By the way you're all over your you know? Oh yeah, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, I didn't really end up
Speaker 1: again like that. Stick to begin with, you don't have
Speaker 1: the long COVID very thankfully, No, I do not. It
Speaker 1: appears away. It might drop dead in ten years, but
Speaker 1: you know I don't. Yeah, well, yeah, so so might
Speaker 1: we all? Who knows? Anyway, Uh, today on the show,
Speaker 1: let's see what we got. We're gonna talk about get this.
Speaker 1: We got a bar today with its own theme song.
Speaker 1: Excited about that, And we're gonna talk about knots and
Speaker 1: everybody loves to talk knots, right, um, And by the
Speaker 1: end of this you you might finally get off And
Speaker 1: by you, I mean you hate and finally get off
Speaker 1: the clinch knot I think you use for everything. Isn't
Speaker 1: that what you do? It's so easy? I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean sort of sort of it is. But life, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes life is hard anyhow? Um you know? So hey, look,
Speaker 1: you did finally make it back to Montana. Did Phil's
Speaker 1: announcement last week spark spark a little more enthusiasm to
Speaker 1: get back? Did it once again? Early again? Joe? And
Speaker 1: then listeners, here's a weekly reminder that I am, in
Speaker 1: fact not high. Yeah. I don't know why people won't
Speaker 1: let this go. Have you guys ever considered like I
Speaker 1: might just be kind of dumb. No no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I don't say that You're not dumb. You're just You're
Speaker 1: just special and that's why we love you. And I
Speaker 1: hope it never dies. I think we should just keep
Speaker 1: that one going, you know. Thanks anyway, Yes, I did
Speaker 1: in fact make it back to Montana. Yeah. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: with all those delays and and rescheduling, you know, I
Speaker 1: got to thinking about it, and I'm like, you were
Speaker 1: here for so much extra time. We probably still could
Speaker 1: have gotten a fishing trip in. We didn't know that
Speaker 1: you were going to get stuck. But in hindsight, I'm like, damn,
Speaker 1: you actually were here with a negative COVID result for like,
Speaker 1: you know, three or four more days and you should
Speaker 1: have been Yeah. Um, and the weather was nice, I
Speaker 1: mean relatively speaking, so uh yeah, we we probably could have.
Speaker 1: But I did get to hit the I did get
Speaker 1: to hit the ice. I was gonna say, you did.
Speaker 1: You did one wish did come true for you? You You
Speaker 1: got you finally got back out there and back out
Speaker 1: on the ice this weekend. How was that? It was good?
Speaker 1: I got to break out all that ship that thirteen
Speaker 1: sent me and everything that i'd hoped for and more.
Speaker 1: There you go. So now having actually finally gotten to
Speaker 1: use it, um any any favorite piece of of thirteen
Speaker 1: fishing gear emerge out of the glorious pile you were sent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get into it, like you know, I think
Speaker 1: we'll talk about a little more in this episode later on.
Speaker 1: But uh, what we ended up fishing for was mostly like,
Speaker 1: there was this farm pond that we ended up fishing,
Speaker 1: and so I bought a lot of the lighter stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, there aren't any like Walleye or like anything
Speaker 1: super big in it. But I was fishing one of
Speaker 1: those little ultra light omens with like the split grip.
Speaker 1: I love that thing, man, It's it's unbelievably sensitive and
Speaker 1: so like the blank starts around right and then the
Speaker 1: tapers into like a flat like ribbon of metal. So
Speaker 1: it's the tip of supersensitive. So you don't have to
Speaker 1: use one of those what do you call like those
Speaker 1: like spring dipper things. Oh god, yeah, I know you
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about. I I do. I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know the lingo, but I know
Speaker 1: exactly what you mean. But yeah, those rods are pretty
Speaker 1: slick like the tip of those rods. It's like it's
Speaker 1: like a noodle, but it works somehow, especially light for
Speaker 1: smaller light biting fish. Yeah totally. I mean, like you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's good for two things, right, You can really
Speaker 1: see anytime something interacts with your bait. And then also
Speaker 1: if you just like move your wrist to touch, it
Speaker 1: kind of works as like a spring to amplify that.
Speaker 1: So it gives you like a really nice action. And
Speaker 1: that rod, because of how it's designed, has some really
Speaker 1: like it has some surprising backbone to it too. I
Speaker 1: actually hooked into like a fairly sizeable brook trout, like
Speaker 1: you know, fifteen inches, which you know for a brook trod,
Speaker 1: was like a great brookie And man, I licked that
Speaker 1: thing before it knew it was hooked, you know. So anyhow,
Speaker 1: the split grip Ultra light omen is a new favorite,
Speaker 1: and I'm a big fan of that. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: lick a lot of brookies before they know they're hooked.
Speaker 1: When you do that, you would end up over your shoulder,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, on those little streamers like
Speaker 1: to fish just like, oh he's behind me, Tony. Anyway,
Speaker 1: that's that's actually not where I thought go with that.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, no, I could have gone in several directions,
Speaker 1: but I chose that one. Um, since you we choose
Speaker 1: to wed our brookies with other people saliva too, Yeah right,
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. Um. But well, looks since you've left, it
Speaker 1: has gotten colder here, um, but still not cold enough
Speaker 1: for local safe ice. So I'm not using any of
Speaker 1: my thirteen nice fishing gear, at least not around the way.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, Maybe a little bit of
Speaker 1: skim ice that's gonna go away when it gets back
Speaker 1: to forty five this week. Um. Anyhow, moving on to
Speaker 1: those knots. Did you know I'm actually fascinated by fishing knots.
Speaker 1: And here's why. I think that anglers obsess over them
Speaker 1: too much. Right, Like, in my opinion, there are four
Speaker 1: maybe five knots every angler should know and that's it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I you know, we were joking about me using a
Speaker 1: clinch knot for everything. That's not exactly true, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think they're like people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: you gotta use this for this, and this for that
Speaker 1: and this for there are a whole bunch of knots
Speaker 1: that have like different applications, right, But you know, I
Speaker 1: don't think that you know, if you're a saltwater fisherman,
Speaker 1: you use a series of knots if you're yeah, as
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, right, so it's situational. And now,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, every anglersh should know the clinch, palamar,
Speaker 1: non slip, mono loop and a unique union splice. And
Speaker 1: then like you say, there, there's there's outliers like if
Speaker 1: you fly fish for trout, you gotta add a blood
Speaker 1: not today have to know how to tie that. Um.
Speaker 1: If you saltwater fish, you should probably be able to
Speaker 1: tie a spider hitch. Maybe not the Bamni twist, but
Speaker 1: the spider hitch. Um. But what I see happening, uh,
Speaker 1: is these new knots get popularized by the internet right
Speaker 1: on like TikTok and reels. There's always these little tutorials
Speaker 1: on tie these crazy knots, which is fine and new
Speaker 1: is good, there's nothing wrong with that. But then what happens,
Speaker 1: I feel like other knots apparently become weaker. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're still tying the palamar. That's so two thousand five dude,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Only only not I'll use
Speaker 1: these days to San Diego jam, Like, come on, man,
Speaker 1: and not that was good ten years ago. It's still
Speaker 1: for the most part of good. Knot Yeah, people are
Speaker 1: too obsessed with knots, man, And like, here's the thing.
Speaker 1: If I wanted to spend all my free time tying knots,
Speaker 1: I'd get into crocheting and not like five fishing. The
Speaker 1: my like kid basically is like five turned clinch kids,
Speaker 1: the improved clinches in garbage. Don't use it, um oh,
Speaker 1: explain yourself so you don't go back through the loop
Speaker 1: to make it improve. Because here's like the thing that
Speaker 1: to me, because of how that not tightens when you
Speaker 1: pull it back through, sometimes that loop will close on
Speaker 1: your tag end, and before the the turns around, your
Speaker 1: main line have like seated themselves. So you're saying a
Speaker 1: lot of times and this is just for me, you know,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say it's garbage for everyone. Man, If you're
Speaker 1: better at that, I just find that they don't sit
Speaker 1: as well. And I find that I guess it kind
Speaker 1: of I guess an opening that loop a little bit
Speaker 1: by bringing your tag end back through, you kind of
Speaker 1: take some pressure off of it. And I guess it's
Speaker 1: not cutting in so much. But no, no, I wasn't
Speaker 1: trying to give you a hard time. It's actually I'm
Speaker 1: I was intrigued that you said that because there have
Speaker 1: been articles written right and and some other like really
Speaker 1: hardcore anglers that say the same thing. You don't need
Speaker 1: to go back through the loop. I don't think you
Speaker 1: need to do that, man. I think it's like a
Speaker 1: I think it depends. Yeah, I think it depends on
Speaker 1: what you're tying it with. But my point I was
Speaker 1: gonna say was, even though I've read them and I
Speaker 1: probably think that's right, I can't not do it. I can't.
Speaker 1: But I can't not go back through the loop. And
Speaker 1: I know other fishermen who read the same thing. They're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I can't do it. I can't not. It just
Speaker 1: doesn't feel right. I will say before we move off
Speaker 1: of this um. The only time that I tie it
Speaker 1: is if I'm using a clinch shot for some reason
Speaker 1: on like a bigger hook that for some like I
Speaker 1: don't want to smell or something like that. Like so
Speaker 1: if if I'm like bait fishing or whatever. But I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think of like a good way to wrap
Speaker 1: this up. If I'm using like, if I'm using a
Speaker 1: hook with like a heavy gauge wire and I'm trying
Speaker 1: a clinch shot on it for some reason, I will
Speaker 1: use the improved clinch because the diameter of like the
Speaker 1: hook I sometimes your regular clinch will slip a little bit. Well,
Speaker 1: that's that's what it all boils down to, is diameter.
Speaker 1: In a matter of fact. You know, if if you're
Speaker 1: doing twenty pound tests or heavier, you don't need five
Speaker 1: turns three, I'll do it and we turn clinch on
Speaker 1: a heavy saltwater leader. No problems there, No problems there anyway.
Speaker 1: We'll get off of that now. And I just want
Speaker 1: to reiterate that new you know, it's not that new
Speaker 1: knots aren't cool or good. It's just that I think
Speaker 1: we get obsessed with them. And there's one not in
Speaker 1: particular that has really blown up and let's say the
Speaker 1: last five six years or so. So we're gonna move
Speaker 1: been to actually a very special tackle hacks for a change,
Speaker 1: UM with Elite series bass pro Carl Jakobsen, who was
Speaker 1: here a while ago, UM to discuss this not and
Speaker 1: let's see if he sells you on the merits of
Speaker 1: what I'd considered the second most pain in the ass,
Speaker 1: not next to the Biminy twist. I'm getting hacks coming
Speaker 1: from inside the City the Blood at joining us today
Speaker 1: for tackle hacks. Carl Jocobson is here, uh bass Master
Speaker 1: Elite Series angler. You've been on before for smooth moves,
Speaker 1: reminding everybody you were the first Australian angler to qualify
Speaker 1: for the bass Master Elite Series. Um. Yeah, Man, whenever
Speaker 1: we have a chance to get like a really high
Speaker 1: caliber bass pro on like yourself, we'd be remiss not
Speaker 1: to get a tackle hack, because, i mean, bass is
Speaker 1: America's fish. We have a lot of anglers that chase bass.
Speaker 1: So I'm always so curious to hear uh tips from
Speaker 1: from guys like yourself to do this for a living
Speaker 1: with everything on the line, with all the pressure, something
Speaker 1: that that you have in your repertoire, you lean on
Speaker 1: a lot that can just make Joe Weekend Angler a
Speaker 1: better bass fisherman. Man. The floor is yours, Coral, Yeah,
Speaker 1: no doubt. Um, thanks having us on. I think the
Speaker 1: best one for me is we talked about it before,
Speaker 1: is the f G knot And that's a question that
Speaker 1: we get asked a lot is braid to leader, what
Speaker 1: not to tie? How do you tie it? Should you
Speaker 1: use straight through fluora carbon, when do you use braid um?
Speaker 1: But the FG not sort of eliminates a lot where
Speaker 1: you can get the best of both worlds. And it's
Speaker 1: a difficult not to tie, but if you learn it,
Speaker 1: it's sort of worth it. And the reason is it's
Speaker 1: a platt so a lot of braid leader knots um
Speaker 1: that will be the weakest point in your line and
Speaker 1: a lot of people lose. You know, you go out there,
Speaker 1: you spend all that money and and to go out
Speaker 1: and fish, and then you lose that trophy fish of
Speaker 1: that fish that you've been chasing for the whole time
Speaker 1: because of a failed knot is not a good feeling,
Speaker 1: and it happens all the time to so many So um,
Speaker 1: learning a good braid lee to n is key and
Speaker 1: being able to use big long leaders. When you do so,
Speaker 1: you kind of get the best of both worlds. You
Speaker 1: get that stretch um and the allow on their bait
Speaker 1: to to move naturally with a big long fluori carbon leader.
Speaker 1: But then getting the feel and the hook set and
Speaker 1: everything of having braid and the and the lightness of braid.
Speaker 1: You know, the castability and everything that comes along with trade.
Speaker 1: So the f G knot is a platid knot that
Speaker 1: is very thin and long. The break the fluora carbon
Speaker 1: does not turn. It stays straight, so it flies through
Speaker 1: your guides super smooth. It doesn't catch and break your
Speaker 1: lure off or just have a one of those ones
Speaker 1: where you cast in your bait just slams the water,
Speaker 1: which happens a lot with the leader. It just eliminates that.
Speaker 1: Then it's a hundred percent not strength UM, so you
Speaker 1: get um, that's not the weakest point in your line anymore.
Speaker 1: It's actually the strongest point. It's going to break everywhere else.
Speaker 1: And generally what I found when I started tying it
Speaker 1: is I like to improve my not to my lure then,
Speaker 1: but because that was where the point was breaking. And
Speaker 1: so I've done it now to where I don't know
Speaker 1: where it's gonna break. When I get snagged, usually straighten
Speaker 1: as the hook or break somewhere on the loudest part
Speaker 1: of the later um. Although you know, usually dawn need
Speaker 1: the bite where it's like being roughed up or something
Speaker 1: like that. So for me it would be learned that
Speaker 1: f J not in a good not to your bite,
Speaker 1: and uh, you'd be enjoying fishing bride later a little better.
Speaker 1: I'm actually really pumped you you brought up this not
Speaker 1: because it's an interesting topic. First of all, if I'm
Speaker 1: not mistaken, it was the Australian anglers that popularized that not.
Speaker 1: I mean I remember, like five six years ago in
Speaker 1: the saltwater scene, nobody was talking about the f G
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I do a lot of
Speaker 1: saltwater fishing. You see like that is everybody will tell
Speaker 1: you that is now the only not worth using. Um.
Speaker 1: I use it a ton to saltwater fish, like tune
Speaker 1: in stuff. But here's my issue with it, And maybe
Speaker 1: you have a quick add on to fix this. I
Speaker 1: love it, but I need to set up all my
Speaker 1: rods tonight before to be out there doing all that
Speaker 1: plating and crossing over. But and if something does break,
Speaker 1: or if I have to do one on the water
Speaker 1: while we're rocking around in six foot seas, I always
Speaker 1: feel like it's too difficult of a not to do
Speaker 1: properly in those conditions. But I know some guys are
Speaker 1: very good at tying them faster. Like, is there people
Speaker 1: people listening. It's one you've got to look up on
Speaker 1: YouTube because it's very hard to explain how to tie it.
Speaker 1: But once they understand that, is there anything that comes
Speaker 1: to mind that like makes you tie that knot quicker
Speaker 1: and smoother on the water, it's actually pretty easy. People
Speaker 1: get too caught up making it look with making it
Speaker 1: look they not easy to explain why. Sorry, it's easy
Speaker 1: to um, but people try and get caught up with
Speaker 1: making it look pretty, and that's what happens. They want
Speaker 1: it to look perfect and they want all the plats.
Speaker 1: But the truth is the second that you've done five
Speaker 1: uh plats, that's the knot it's done. Like all the
Speaker 1: rest of it is just is nothing. The not, the
Speaker 1: strength of the not is in those first five to
Speaker 1: ten plats. And so you guys gonna have a laugh
Speaker 1: at my expense, but I'm going to take that to
Speaker 1: the bank because when these things first came out, it's
Speaker 1: like you have to do cross and you're our mouth
Speaker 1: there with the thing in my mouth for five minutes
Speaker 1: trying on one leader. You don't have to have a
Speaker 1: certain amount, but the not strength is in those first
Speaker 1: few plats. So you get them correct, then just plat
Speaker 1: it and then half hitch it to finish it off
Speaker 1: and just do don't get crazy. They want to do
Speaker 1: all the different types of ones to make it like
Speaker 1: looks like it's a needle point. And that's the way
Speaker 1: I do it the night before. But during the tournament,
Speaker 1: I can tie it as quicker than anyone can tie
Speaker 1: night Like. I sit on the leader, I pull it up,
Speaker 1: it's around my fingers. I'm like platting it and half
Speaker 1: hitching it and I'm winding it up and I tie
Speaker 1: it all the time. But the thing that most people
Speaker 1: don't get is if you tie it the night before
Speaker 1: with a leader and bass fishing, you won't have to
Speaker 1: retie the next day because it won't break. It'll break
Speaker 1: down near the knot and you'll be able to read
Speaker 1: tay and you can retail. I dropped shots and as
Speaker 1: many as a lot because you can fish a huge
Speaker 1: long laid on not run adelaida to where you're having
Speaker 1: to ry toy like during a tournament. It's rare that
Speaker 1: I have to toy and fj during the tournament. That
Speaker 1: is a fantastic tip from Carl. He knows more about
Speaker 1: f gns than I do. So listen to him learned
Speaker 1: the knot and then practice tieing it quick because you
Speaker 1: since that one upright, it is pretty strong. I definitely
Speaker 1: didn't spend an hour trying to learn that not at
Speaker 1: my desk. Right after we recorded that. I actually know
Speaker 1: you didn't, because right after that we were online together
Speaker 1: and you fired up a tutorial video on the f
Speaker 1: G on your phone, and as I recall, you watched
Speaker 1: it for thirty five seconds and said, you guys are
Speaker 1: such dorks. And by you guys, you must have meant
Speaker 1: serious anglers that care to know more than your favorite
Speaker 1: clinch knot. That's the way I interpreted that response. I
Speaker 1: did say that it was too many steps. Man. It's
Speaker 1: like again, if I wanted to spend all my time
Speaker 1: tying knots crochet. Yeah, see I I waver right, Like
Speaker 1: when it first got popular. I tried it and I
Speaker 1: liked it, and I actually got made fun of for it,
Speaker 1: like guys on the boat like give me a hard time,
Speaker 1: like you know, insisting that the unit to UNI or
Speaker 1: Alberta not we're you know, we're better braid to leader connections.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't know, I know, but that's okay, um, But
Speaker 1: I will say that after that chat with Carl, I'm
Speaker 1: starting to lean back into it a tiny bit for
Speaker 1: things I normally wouldn't write, like I only used it
Speaker 1: um in offshore salt water. But after that talk, I
Speaker 1: went on that brown trout trip that you missed that
Speaker 1: we talked about last week, and I got to think
Speaker 1: it about it, and I'm like, why not? You know
Speaker 1: what I mean, it's not gonna hurt. It can't hurt.
Speaker 1: I did. I did because I'm using stick baits and
Speaker 1: and fifteen pound leader because we're angling for big fish.
Speaker 1: Did you notice, like, was it smoother? Well, it's always
Speaker 1: that was the whole thing. It is smoother to cash
Speaker 1: to right, it slides through your guides. Nice. There was
Speaker 1: nothing to notice because I didn't break off. But I
Speaker 1: didn't break off the last time I did it with
Speaker 1: a different knot. So it's it's not really something that's
Speaker 1: like that's tangible, but it's just, um, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe that little bit more confidence that like if a
Speaker 1: you knowty Brown comes out and tanks that it's not
Speaker 1: going to snap it off with a connection. It is
Speaker 1: a very very solid knot, you know, right right, and regardless.
Speaker 1: You know tying most of the time, if you know
Speaker 1: how to do it, Tying a more complicated knot is
Speaker 1: not going to hurt. It couldn't possibly hurt unless you
Speaker 1: were to tie wrong right, I probably would. But what
Speaker 1: is going to hurt is me crushing you Joe. In
Speaker 1: this week's installment of fish News, Fish News that escalated quickly.
Speaker 1: So before we kick in the news, I just want
Speaker 1: to say that we got some some really nice notes
Speaker 1: about the bent helpline, and um, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: thank you guys again for so many great questions, and
Speaker 1: I did you know we mentioned when we kicked it
Speaker 1: off that we've gotten a ton right, and we're not
Speaker 1: going to get to all of them, but I did.
Speaker 1: I did just want to read a few very quickly
Speaker 1: from Neil angling. Okay. He he wrote in with like
Speaker 1: a laundry list of questions. And the only reason I'm
Speaker 1: doing this is because these are ones that will absolutely
Speaker 1: not make a bent Helpline segment, like there's not a chance,
Speaker 1: but there's still fun and I appreciate them. So, um,
Speaker 1: Neil asks who's more punk, g g Allen or Lemmy? Now? Why? Well, okay,
Speaker 1: did you really want my like longhand answer on this
Speaker 1: or you wanted like short and sweet, short and sweet please? Well, uh,
Speaker 1: g Allen did what iggy pop meant to do with
Speaker 1: the peanut butter. Right. If you guys know G. G Allen,
Speaker 1: you'll know what I mean there. Yeah. G g Allen
Speaker 1: was famous for like taking a poop on stage and
Speaker 1: throwing it at the audience and like smearing himself with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Now. Let Me, on the other hand, was
Speaker 1: initially in a band called Hawkwind, and Hawkwind was like
Speaker 1: more like of a psychedelic sort of bent. Yeah, let
Speaker 1: me decided that he didn't fit in with like a
Speaker 1: lot of those philosophies, famously saying that he had some
Speaker 1: proclivities that we're not in line with the exact proclivities
Speaker 1: or habits of Hawkwind, and so he left and made
Speaker 1: motor Head punking two ways, Punking two ways. But I
Speaker 1: still have to go with G. G Allen, although for
Speaker 1: all you G. G Allen fans, he was a terrible
Speaker 1: trash human being and it is very hard to say
Speaker 1: anything good about him other than perhaps he embodied a
Speaker 1: certain ethos I was not expecting this to to generate
Speaker 1: this much conversation. I'm very surprised. Is it's great though,
Speaker 1: So my answer would be in terms of like who
Speaker 1: is more punk? Yes, it's G. G Allen, Like he
Speaker 1: sort of lived the punk lifestyle more, but his music
Speaker 1: was terrible. Like you're not you're not singing G. G
Speaker 1: Allen in the shower? You know? Yeah you know? But yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. Let's move on. Next question from you,
Speaker 1: did Myles ever purchase a record player? How the should
Speaker 1: I know? I have no idea if Myles ever bought
Speaker 1: a record player, you'd have to ask Miles and his
Speaker 1: final one here, Bob the garbage man owes me some sticks?
Speaker 1: Can I send you some smokes so you can trade him?
Speaker 1: He hasn't picked up the pay phone number he gave me.
Speaker 1: That's between you and Bob in the Better Business Bureau,
Speaker 1: my friend, I'm trying to get burner number. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so it just goes to kind of show you the
Speaker 1: range of questions we've been getting. They're all super fun,
Speaker 1: but um, I don't think we could do a full
Speaker 1: segment on G. G Allen. I actually think we already
Speaker 1: kind of did too much. You know what I'm saying? Uh,
Speaker 1: the point is where really haven't fine with this. Also,
Speaker 1: I just want to say sorry to all the people
Speaker 1: that wrote in and said I didn't notice the best
Speaker 1: pro trucker hat thing and now I noticed them everywhere.
Speaker 1: Thanks for officially ruining those. Yeah, well it wasn't us,
Speaker 1: it was it wasn't us. Man. What we can officially ruin, however,
Speaker 1: is Phil's day by making him listen to our ship
Speaker 1: and judge our news stories. Remember, uh, this is fish news.
Speaker 1: It's a competition. Joe and I do not know which
Speaker 1: news story the other guy has grabbed, and our beloved,
Speaker 1: loved audio engineer Phil Taylor will declare a winner at
Speaker 1: the end. And Joe, I believe it's your lead this week.
Speaker 1: I believe it is too. So I'm gonna open with
Speaker 1: a question before I get into this news story. What
Speaker 1: was your very first job as a kid, like you know,
Speaker 1: like like kid kid like paperboy era that type of thing.
Speaker 1: What was your first game? I was. I was a
Speaker 1: paper boy in a slightly different bent. My dad had
Speaker 1: a printing business. It's since like change into something else,
Speaker 1: But I used to work in the bindery department of
Speaker 1: that business, meaning I would like shrink wrap in spiral
Speaker 1: bind things, and I still have nightmares about it to
Speaker 1: this day. I remember one time, one time I did this,
Speaker 1: I shrink grabbed this huge stack of hospital like forms, right,
Speaker 1: and after doing that all day, Uh, this dude Ryan
Speaker 1: came in with a stack of yellow papers and he said,
Speaker 1: I forgot to put these on top of each one
Speaker 1: of these things that you just did. You need to
Speaker 1: unwrap all of them, put this paper on top and
Speaker 1: then rewrap all of them again. So that punched him
Speaker 1: in the face and got fired. No, no, I I
Speaker 1: kind of just did as I was told, uh, like
Speaker 1: a good little drawer. And yeah, so that was my
Speaker 1: first step. Okay, all right, there you go. So I
Speaker 1: walked dogs. That was my first job. There was a
Speaker 1: lady across the street that would pay me twenty bucks
Speaker 1: a week to walk her dogs when I got home
Speaker 1: from school. Uh, and it took me about a week
Speaker 1: of doing it to not feel like doing it anymore. Like,
Speaker 1: in hindsight, how lazy, Like it's a walk around the block,
Speaker 1: but I didn't feel like it anyway. You could have
Speaker 1: gone a little bit more than twenty bucks. But this
Speaker 1: was in like the forties, so that was actually yeah, right,
Speaker 1: exactly it was. I was like a millionaire kid. So anyway, look,
Speaker 1: so now that everyone listening is reminiscing about their first
Speaker 1: kiddie job, um, I bet that none of them can
Speaker 1: top tongue cutter. Okay. So Smithsnyan recently published a terrific
Speaker 1: piece about child tongue cutters in Norway, and the tongues
Speaker 1: they are cutting are cod tongues. But as I explained this,
Speaker 1: I want all of you that have children and like
Speaker 1: the six to thirteen year old range to decide, yes,
Speaker 1: my kid could hack it or hell no. Okay. So
Speaker 1: you recently covered, um, the reassessment of the cod stocks
Speaker 1: in the US, right, but over in Norway there seems
Speaker 1: to be a lot more of them. Those are some
Speaker 1: of the breeding grounds for the stocks of there, and
Speaker 1: the commercial cod fishing is still major business. So this
Speaker 1: story is setting. It's either Ryan or Rhiny, probably Rhyney,
Speaker 1: which is a town in Norway's uh Lafoten Islands, Lofton Islands.
Speaker 1: I'm doing the thing that you do where I can't
Speaker 1: say stuff. Um. And this is this is of course
Speaker 1: well north of the Arctic circle, right, So there's several
Speaker 1: cod processing plants there and at the processors, the cod
Speaker 1: bodies are dried, frozen, or salted, and then exported for food. Now,
Speaker 1: according to this story, a cod tongue is squishy, gelatinous
Speaker 1: and buttery smooth and likened to the filet mignon of
Speaker 1: the cod, which I've never heard before. If that's the
Speaker 1: thing that we do here, I've never heard of it.
Speaker 1: It's like when somebody tells me about, like I don't know, cooking,
Speaker 1: like perch cheeks or something ship and I'm like, how
Speaker 1: how much of meat is there? How big is a
Speaker 1: cod tongue? I think cod tongues are pretty large. But
Speaker 1: all I can think of is those stories that are
Speaker 1: floating around down that nobody grabbed for news about those
Speaker 1: parasites that just replace the fish's tongue. That's all I
Speaker 1: could think about, Like we should I know, the idea
Speaker 1: of of of eating a fish tongue not super appealing.
Speaker 1: Um anyway, So the thing about this is removing them
Speaker 1: is tedious, and the processing plants just can't make quite
Speaker 1: enough money off of them to to make the tongue
Speaker 1: removal worth their time, So instead they set aside all
Speaker 1: the cod heads for the local kids, many of which
Speaker 1: show up after school routinely to remove tongues and sell
Speaker 1: them on their own. Now, the processors know that they
Speaker 1: are leaving some money on the table, But um these
Speaker 1: kids known as I'm gonna try really hard here, and
Speaker 1: I'm only gonna do it once. Tongueus yarn, in tongues
Speaker 1: yarning tong tonguas yarn and that's fine, which translates to
Speaker 1: tongue cutters. And that's what we're gonna say for the
Speaker 1: rest of the time. This is not something new. The
Speaker 1: people growing up in this region, kids have been doing
Speaker 1: this for generations. Um. And the processors gladly donate the
Speaker 1: heads because it quote introduces young people to the fishing
Speaker 1: industry and teaches them the value of entrepreneurship and hard work.
Speaker 1: And hard work it is per the story, right. I
Speaker 1: love this quote. H This job makes selling girl Scout
Speaker 1: cookies or running a lemonade stand look like child's play.
Speaker 1: Right now, goes on. I want to I want to
Speaker 1: read from the story. It's very well written. Um Uh
Speaker 1: that children as young as six goes straight from school
Speaker 1: to the docks, where they spend hours in the numbing cold,
Speaker 1: coated in fish guts, sharp knives in hand may seem
Speaker 1: bizarre when viewed from the perspective of today's developed economies
Speaker 1: and increasingly virtual workplaces, but the rarefied nature of this work,
Speaker 1: proudly undertaken by kids who feel a connection to the tradition,
Speaker 1: is part of what makes the practice so fascinating. So
Speaker 1: it says the task itself involves spearing the head onto
Speaker 1: a giant metal spike and then slicing out the tongue.
Speaker 1: UH and the tongues pile up on the spike until
Speaker 1: they reached the top, where they're then tossed into a bucket. Right,
Speaker 1: and the author says the kid's handywork was so quick
Speaker 1: it was difficult to make out the distinct steps heads
Speaker 1: where grab spikes, slice tossed, grab spike, slice tossed until
Speaker 1: the large bin was empty and a new batch of
Speaker 1: codheads arrived. Despite harsh winds and below freezing temperatures. A
Speaker 1: few of the older tongue cutters who worked fast, we're
Speaker 1: sweating piles of snow were pink with blood, but they
Speaker 1: didn't seem to mind. Right, So there's more to it
Speaker 1: than that, though. So they interviewed Um, a local fish
Speaker 1: exporter UH and he was like, yeah, like back in
Speaker 1: the day, I let my six year old stay out
Speaker 1: there till midnight sometimes cutting these tongues. But then after
Speaker 1: these kids are done, then they have to go home,
Speaker 1: wash their own tongues, weigh them out right, separate them,
Speaker 1: package them, and freeze them. Um. And and these don't
Speaker 1: get exported. These are mostly sold locally. So they interviewed
Speaker 1: several generations of cutters. Is now a mother of kids
Speaker 1: who cut. She says when she was young, when she
Speaker 1: was a young girl, she made thirty two thousand dollars
Speaker 1: over the course of six seasons and and used that
Speaker 1: to buy her first car. Now, yeah, nowadays, some of
Speaker 1: these kids are earning more than ten thousand in a
Speaker 1: single season. Right, good, yeah, right, And they talked to
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old girl who basically said, I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about how much I make because it's
Speaker 1: a lot. I just don't want gangster four year old
Speaker 1: girl old business. Yeah, exactly right. So it says, you know,
Speaker 1: she used her earnings most recently to buy a new
Speaker 1: iPhone and Apple AirPod so she could listen to music
Speaker 1: while she cut. And apparently these kids all use a
Speaker 1: mobile app called Marine traffic to see when the boats
Speaker 1: are headed back to the dock. And then they sell
Speaker 1: their tongues now on like Facebook, marketplace and stuff, which
Speaker 1: some of the older people kind of said, you know,
Speaker 1: they say, like that sort of takes away the charm
Speaker 1: of what it used to be, like, you know, the
Speaker 1: little kids selling tongues now it's like it's a business now. Look,
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of crafty, hard working kids out
Speaker 1: there in all countries, no doubt. It's not the racket
Speaker 1: and the hustle that that I find so special interesting,
Speaker 1: but it's the conditions. Like some of these kids will
Speaker 1: stay out there until two o'clock in the morning cutting
Speaker 1: tongues in just brutal, brutal conditions. And I fully understand
Speaker 1: that these kids are used to those conditions, right that's
Speaker 1: where they grew up. But still, like we had, you know,
Speaker 1: three inches of snow here the other day, and my
Speaker 1: little guy, who's like the hardcore fisherman, he's outside for
Speaker 1: ten minutes, was like, yeah, I'm cold, and then declined
Speaker 1: participation in all outdoor activities for the remainder of the day.
Speaker 1: So good on these kids. That is impressive, And like
Speaker 1: for the kid that's like I don't feel like walking
Speaker 1: the dogs today. It's like, yeah, let me see you
Speaker 1: stand outside until two o'clock in the morning and subarctic
Speaker 1: conditions cutting out cod tongues. You know, such a punk. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, man, it's a different breed up there. Man,
Speaker 1: those fishing cultures. Um. I mean you see this in
Speaker 1: a lot of like, uh, cultures that rely on like
Speaker 1: fishing or like a grarian or just what have you.
Speaker 1: It kind of like just breeds this certain type of
Speaker 1: person that is just impervious to a lot of the
Speaker 1: stuff that like us soft Yeah, sure, no, and and
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And I mean that's what I mean.
Speaker 1: I don't want to make it sound like, you know,
Speaker 1: kids in the US don't know how to work hard.
Speaker 1: You have kids who whose parents own ranches and grow
Speaker 1: up in you know, working farms and everything. I'm saying that,
Speaker 1: like the impression I get is that none of these
Speaker 1: kids need to do this to survive. It's not like
Speaker 1: they're like they're feeding their families. This is basically for
Speaker 1: walking around money and rather than do what normal six
Speaker 1: to thirteen or fourteen year olds would do after school,
Speaker 1: like they're opting into this and that is badass, Like
Speaker 1: those are some tough ass kids, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Please enter your password. You have one unheard message, Mr Smack,
Speaker 1: I have the mean calling getting ship like you really
Speaker 1: do you need to like do some basic research when
Speaker 1: you're doing a news story on I don't know Turkish names,
Speaker 1: maybe on pronunciation and bridget time air dewan. Dude, it's
Speaker 1: that is the president of Turkey. It's not like an
Speaker 1: obscure name. That is actually the current president Turkey. You
Speaker 1: should have got that own, buddy. Anyhow, we'll gets up.
Speaker 1: Will end of message Delete Priss seven save deleted Phil.
Speaker 1: If I were you, I would pick Joe as the
Speaker 1: winner here. That's never good when you when you when
Speaker 1: you cross over like that. Yeah, well, anyway, I do
Speaker 1: think that I have a at least a contender here. Um,
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you, Joe about a Joe,
Speaker 1: we need to talk about it. I wanted to I
Speaker 1: wanted to uh talk about a poaching incident that's getting
Speaker 1: a lot of coverage and in fact, this comes from
Speaker 1: USA Today, which is an interesting stories to like cover
Speaker 1: like an outdoor story, right, Um, well, they only tend
Speaker 1: to do it when it's pretty big and powerful to
Speaker 1: get to get there. They also they also have that
Speaker 1: that's a side site called for the wind and um,
Speaker 1: I mean I've had a lot of good things off
Speaker 1: there anyway, God, anyway, good for you USA today. Uh.
Speaker 1: This December, Corporal Brian Talent of Mississippi Department of Wildlife
Speaker 1: Fishing Parks busted two folks who were caught with a
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty two croppy over their legal limit while
Speaker 1: fishing in Mississippi's Eden Reservoir or the Spillway I guess
Speaker 1: to Mississippi's Eden Reservoir. The limit would have been thirty
Speaker 1: between the two of them. So for those of you
Speaker 1: who can't do math, that's one hundred and eighty two croppy,
Speaker 1: which is a crap ton of cross. You like that?
Speaker 1: I did like that? Oh man. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: these things pop up every once in a while. It's
Speaker 1: it's not the first time, and I'm never less uh
Speaker 1: flabbergasted over just how how far you know, some people
Speaker 1: are willing to go over the limit. This is. That's
Speaker 1: a big one though. That's a big one for for
Speaker 1: a couple of guys. Yeah, Yeah, that's basically a truck
Speaker 1: bed full of full of croppy. Now the story is
Speaker 1: pretty like lacking in details. I tried doing more research
Speaker 1: online and I was just like looking and looking. It's
Speaker 1: basically the same story, copied and pasteed, just over and
Speaker 1: over again. And that's really all the information that was there.
Speaker 1: This person busted these people, and these people had this
Speaker 1: many fish, and now these people are in trouble. Um
Speaker 1: doesn't name the anglers, doesn't talk about the method to take,
Speaker 1: doesn't talk about penalties, nothing that's interesting. Okay, that's that's
Speaker 1: fairly rare. They don't get in a little bit with
Speaker 1: detail there for sure. So I put on my investigative
Speaker 1: journalist hat and got on the horn with M D.
Speaker 1: F W p oh phoning it in. All right, I'm impressed. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I like to do that every
Speaker 1: now and again. Keep the people in form, should factor
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff in, By the way, I hope
Speaker 1: he does, Phil, No matter what you're about to say
Speaker 1: or where this goes like extra more more effort tonight,
Speaker 1: and everybody hung up on me the end. Uh. Anyway,
Speaker 1: it turned out there was um a lot I didn't
Speaker 1: know about the fishery itself, and I think that information
Speaker 1: really clears up a lot of the questions surrounding the story.
Speaker 1: So first, let's talk a little bit about crappy fishing
Speaker 1: in Mississippi. Uh, Joe, we both know that when you
Speaker 1: get into croppy, uh, you like really get into him. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean it's fair it's fairly rare to
Speaker 1: catch one croppy. If you catch one, you've typically found
Speaker 1: them all, or at least a handful more So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's just up north. Uh, Southern croppy is a
Speaker 1: whole different ball game. It's also big business. I think
Speaker 1: it's worth pointing out that, Like, yeah, Mississippi, Alabama, Northern
Speaker 1: Alabama in particular. Um, I fished in in Center Alabama,
Speaker 1: which claims to be the croppy capital of the US. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like, by and large, in especially in the northeast,
Speaker 1: it's something that's there that you get into on occasion,
Speaker 1: but there's not the same kind of culture around it
Speaker 1: that there is in this area. Yeah. So again, it's
Speaker 1: a whole different ball game. Um. And it's a whole
Speaker 1: different ball game in like more ways than one. For instance, Joe,
Speaker 1: did you know that you could snag croppy in Mississippi legally. No, no,
Speaker 1: I did not. So there are there are spill ways
Speaker 1: across the state where the croppy congregate is like temperatures
Speaker 1: drop in the winter, and it is perfectly legal to
Speaker 1: snag those fish. In fact, one person I talked to
Speaker 1: UH mentioned that there are even like plaques and these
Speaker 1: spill ways detailing exactly how one can legally go about it.
Speaker 1: It's one pulper angler, a maximum of two hooks, no
Speaker 1: bigger than a number two and no less than an
Speaker 1: inch apart, and no trouble hooks at all. Wow, man,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that's that's totally news to me. I
Speaker 1: had I had no idea. Um usually with any kind
Speaker 1: of game fish, I thought there was there was, there
Speaker 1: was no snagging of it, right right, Yeah? So, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we know when you get onto them, it's
Speaker 1: easy fishing. But like, even then, a hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: two over the limit, UH seems like gill net numbers.
Speaker 1: And the first thing I thought of was, how the
Speaker 1: hell did they do that? Well, there's your answer. They
Speaker 1: were snagging, which is legal. Although I wouldn't be surprised
Speaker 1: if they weren't, you know, abiding by that rule. Why
Speaker 1: they were completely ignoring you know, ignoring their limit. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if they were like, oh, is are
Speaker 1: these hooks more than an inch? You know what I mean? Like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I also wouldn't be surprised if they overlook
Speaker 1: the two hook um limit you know on the lines there.
Speaker 1: But what's what's interesting to me, I don't know. It
Speaker 1: seems like if if there's a rule in place like
Speaker 1: this right where this is legal at a certain time
Speaker 1: a year when the croppy you're doing this typically, I
Speaker 1: feel like states would put those rules into play because
Speaker 1: a fair amount of people, um actually want to take
Speaker 1: them that way, you know what I'm saying. So without
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know all the details, but it
Speaker 1: would seem to me like if that's a thing that
Speaker 1: people do so much so that there's rules in play.
Speaker 1: Nobody else was down at this particular spot seeing this happen.
Speaker 1: I mean, they couldn't have called. They couldn't have snagged
Speaker 1: that many fish in ten minutes, or maybe they could.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's so many in there and they put nine
Speaker 1: hooks on their line. Who knows, But I just I
Speaker 1: wonder about that. Yeah, well, you know that is part
Speaker 1: of the story that I couldn't find out is exactly
Speaker 1: how this got reported, but it did get reported by
Speaker 1: by the public, like somebody said, suspicious activities going on here,
Speaker 1: got it, you might want check it out. So I
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what that entailed, but that's what happened.
Speaker 1: So Yeah, the guys got busted, which begs the question, um,
Speaker 1: what does the fine for being a hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: two fish over your legal limit look like? According to
Speaker 1: the MWFPS Law Enforcement Office, the fine for the infraction
Speaker 1: is five hundred to a thousand dollars, Like that's your
Speaker 1: base fine, with an additional fine of twenty to a
Speaker 1: hundred dollars per fish over the limit. That means, as
Speaker 1: I understand that the poachers are facing like the potential
Speaker 1: for a combined sixteen thousand, two hundred dollars approximately half
Speaker 1: of the fourteen year old girls tongue cutter money in
Speaker 1: fines for being like that, for being croppy hogging dumbasses. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know, and I applaud the state for for thes
Speaker 1: per fish over I mean, they're not going to get that.
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing, man, Like you see a lot
Speaker 1: of states really go for the throat and try and
Speaker 1: set an example here, um that might do something to
Speaker 1: scare off the next group of guys. We we've discussed
Speaker 1: that here before. Where just because that's the penalty, it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're going to pay it. And you know,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, if you're that much of a of
Speaker 1: a jerkass to do something like this in the first place,
Speaker 1: somebody could take your license away or whatever. You're you're
Speaker 1: gonna do it if this is what you do, if
Speaker 1: you if you have it and you once, chances are
Speaker 1: you're gonna do it again no matter what gets imposed
Speaker 1: on you. Just my my opinion. Yeah, yeah, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I hope they throw the book at him. Anyway. The
Speaker 1: next thing I wanted to know is what the hell
Speaker 1: happens to all of these fish? So uh an employee
Speaker 1: for mdf WPS Northern Regional Office. And you'll notice that,
Speaker 1: like I've left this particular person's name out of this
Speaker 1: new story. Yeah, I was wondering if you're gonna name drop.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Well, I'm honestly pretty sure I was annoying
Speaker 1: that guy. So I didn't like ask for a lot
Speaker 1: of follow up, and in fact, I didn't even like
Speaker 1: get I didn't even want to ask him for his
Speaker 1: name again, because I was getting pretty curt answers at
Speaker 1: this point. You're just saying, yeah, man a lot, is
Speaker 1: that what the so that guy? Uh, he intimated to
Speaker 1: me that it was up to the officer's discretion, like
Speaker 1: what happened to these fish, meaning that the officer could
Speaker 1: basically transfer the fish wherever he wanted to. Um. I
Speaker 1: used the example of a food bank, which he said
Speaker 1: would have been possible if the officer had deemed it appropriate.
Speaker 1: So he saw, like these fish were all good, they
Speaker 1: were in good condition. Sure, let's get him to the
Speaker 1: food bank, right, Um, so you know, let's hope that
Speaker 1: that's where they ended up and not in like the landfill.
Speaker 1: I would also accept that officer hosting a badass fish,
Speaker 1: right though. Yeah, if it's at his discretion, man party
Speaker 1: at his joint, you know what I mean. That's not
Speaker 1: a terrible idea. That's not a terrible idea. No. So finally, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I was interested in like the frequency of
Speaker 1: which things like this happened. The aforementioned guy, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure I was annoying, said that it happens all the time.
Speaker 1: But he he didn't in a shocking turn events. He
Speaker 1: didn't voluntarily like start listing off some specifics, so I
Speaker 1: followed up with with Major Chris reid Uh in the
Speaker 1: MDFWPS Central Region Office. Um, while snagging over their limit
Speaker 1: does happen occasionally, he said. Um. He also noted that
Speaker 1: this event was particularly egregious. He said that in sixteen years,
Speaker 1: I haven't checked anyone that's been that brazenly over the limit.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that's why we're
Speaker 1: out here checking to make sure the resources don't get
Speaker 1: depleted in this way. I've never seen a hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty is fish over the limit. Yeah, and some of
Speaker 1: that stuff is going to sneak by. I think, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not easy being a being a conservation
Speaker 1: officer in any sting, you know what I mean, there's
Speaker 1: only so many of you. You you you can't be anywhere.
Speaker 1: So I mean, even this bust, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: it should at least help to alleviate some of this
Speaker 1: and at least, you know, scare some people. I would
Speaker 1: hope that's kind of what all you can hope for
Speaker 1: with a lot of these outcomes. Yeah, yeah, is to
Speaker 1: you know, be taking a portion of these incidents, making
Speaker 1: them an example and trying to dissuade others from participating
Speaker 1: and just bullshit like this themselves. So anyhow, guys, don't
Speaker 1: be a croppy catching ship head. I'd also like to
Speaker 1: thank Corporal Brian Talent for protecting the resource, and everybody
Speaker 1: at m d w FP who took the time to
Speaker 1: talk to me, even the guy who was very obviously
Speaker 1: annoyed with my line of questioning. Well, I still applaud
Speaker 1: you for calling UM. And let's see who feels going
Speaker 1: to applaud is it croppy catching ship heads or UM?
Speaker 1: The lovely, the lovely, you know, beautiful children of Norway
Speaker 1: who are up there cutting cod tongues while we um,
Speaker 1: you know, live live the lavish life down here. We're
Speaker 1: gonna find out who wins. We're gonna hear from Phil
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna go have a drink in a
Speaker 1: Yanzer establishment, if you know what that means. I don't
Speaker 1: really open up about my process very often on this podcast,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: tired of poaching stories and unless it involves someone named
Speaker 1: the Breeze, I'm also getting a little sick of record stories,
Speaker 1: So Hayden, I commend you hitting the pavement for this story,
Speaker 1: but I gotta give it to Joe this week. I
Speaker 1: wonder if G. G Allen knew about these Norwegian kids,
Speaker 1: he could have invited them up to cut cod tongues
Speaker 1: out on stage as as opener. That would have been
Speaker 1: punk as hell best God damn bar tender from tim
Speaker 1: Buck to to Portland, Maine the Portland argument for that matter.
Speaker 1: So where are we going for some SuDS this week?
Speaker 1: Yinser country? How about that Western p a You ever
Speaker 1: spend any time out there? I went to visit Carnegie
Speaker 1: Mellon one time, and that is the extent of my
Speaker 1: travels to Pittsburgh. My my wife actually applied there and
Speaker 1: when UH check that out too, ended up not going
Speaker 1: passed on that I'm not getting. I wasn't even gonna
Speaker 1: do it. You did it to yourself. Uh So anyway,
Speaker 1: So I've done some catfishing in the Burg, literally right
Speaker 1: in front of the stadium, and that was cool, and
Speaker 1: that was with my old buddy Joe Gordon of the
Speaker 1: Three Rivers Catfish Club. I've also done some muskie fishing
Speaker 1: on the Allegheny, but I've never been out there for trout,
Speaker 1: and there is some damn fine trout water out that way.
Speaker 1: In fact, some of it runs directly behind this week's
Speaker 1: drinking establishment, which was submitted by listener Matt Wagner. Right. So,
Speaker 1: the the official name of this place is the Halton
Speaker 1: Sportsman's Lodge, but according to Matt, everybody knows it as
Speaker 1: the Halton Hilton. Here's how Matt opens up this fantastic nomination.
Speaker 1: As a young man, I dreamed of having a beer
Speaker 1: in the famed Halton Hilton. This bar has a storied
Speaker 1: past and is really a cultural staple in the Allegheny
Speaker 1: National Forest. My family has had a camp in Halton
Speaker 1: since the mid nineteen fifties, and the Halton Hilton was
Speaker 1: established in the late fifties. It's located in Elk County, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: south of Ridgeway on the banks of the Clarion River.
Speaker 1: My father and I caught some beautiful trout from the
Speaker 1: hole directly across the bar, and at the end of
Speaker 1: the day enjoyed plenty of straw beers before heading back
Speaker 1: to camp. According to relatives, people just started calling it
Speaker 1: the Halton Hilton and the names stuck. People come from
Speaker 1: miles around to check this place out, and it has
Speaker 1: almost become a right of passage to have a straw
Speaker 1: and a quote belly buster bellybuster. Right, So let's get
Speaker 1: into that. So Matt continues, Right, this place is famous
Speaker 1: for it belly buster burger. The burgers were rumored to
Speaker 1: be part venison and are actually quite delicious. I mean,
Speaker 1: where else can you go and get a lukewarm straw
Speaker 1: and pickled turkey gizzards. The restrooms were an adventure in themselves,
Speaker 1: and at one point the men's room was just a
Speaker 1: hole in the floor. He says, the st poly girl
Speaker 1: cardboard cut out, and the old school cigarette machine, and
Speaker 1: then parentheses says, you know the style that had the
Speaker 1: knob you pulled and and the smokes came out, asked Joe,
Speaker 1: he has definitely bought SIGs from one of these. I'll
Speaker 1: comment on that in a minute. Gave this place its
Speaker 1: own kind of nostalgia. Then when you looked up, you
Speaker 1: knew you were in an awesome place. Painted on the
Speaker 1: ceiling is a giant black silhouette of a flying goose,
Speaker 1: and velvet wall paper covered the walls. So, yes, I
Speaker 1: do know those sig machines, and I think I bought
Speaker 1: a pack from one in college exactly once. Because I
Speaker 1: kid you not, I turned twenty one and within two
Speaker 1: months you couldn't smoke in bars anymore around here, and
Speaker 1: those cigarette machines just totally disappeared. Yeah. Well, and dear listener,
Speaker 1: I have also bought SIGs from one of those machines. Really. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There used to be this spot in a man Junk
Speaker 1: that I played called the Grape Room. I used to
Speaker 1: like play music. They're a bunch and they had one
Speaker 1: of those old school sig machines, foodsball table man. Then
Speaker 1: one day I was like, I need some SIGs. I
Speaker 1: don't feel like walking into the convenience store. I'm here
Speaker 1: right now. Let's see if it has anything in it.
Speaker 1: So I put my money in, pull the lever for
Speaker 1: the parliaments and out came a nice little pack of parliaments,
Speaker 1: went outside, smoked one. Dude, that thing must have been
Speaker 1: in there for twenty years. Do you know what to like?
Speaker 1: I remember it was. I took it one drag and
Speaker 1: I think the whole cigarettes just went up in flame.
Speaker 1: As I recalled to they only really could could could
Speaker 1: give you soft packs which like sucked, like off pack suck.
Speaker 1: You know, to break all your SIGs at once, man,
Speaker 1: put us off back in your pocket and go do
Speaker 1: anything anything, Right, kids, don't smoke. Stop listening to us.
Speaker 1: If you're listening right now, I don't either. Anyway, regarding
Speaker 1: the belly buster, I gotta say now that sounds epic
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna prime the pump here for hate mail,
Speaker 1: but I don't care because I've had this debate privately
Speaker 1: with with many YenS and buddies, and it's time to
Speaker 1: take it public. So I'm a Philly guy, right, and
Speaker 1: I will put my Tony Luke, Steve's Prince of Steaks,
Speaker 1: and Geno's against that Permantis nonsense that you guys eat
Speaker 1: out there. Okay, the first time I was in Pittsburgh,
Speaker 1: I couldn't get to the famous Permanni brothers fast enough,
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, I didn't think it was that good. Right.
Speaker 1: Their whole stick is loading the sandwich with French fries,
Speaker 1: so to me, I just tasted like white bread and
Speaker 1: French fries. I didn't understand. So next time I'm out
Speaker 1: that way, belly buster all day. That sounds amazing, now,
Speaker 1: real quick. I did say trash, and I wasn't talking
Speaker 1: about Permantes, was talking about Geno's. And what do you say,
Speaker 1: Tony Luke, Steve's Princess Dakes. I'm disappointed in you, bro.
Speaker 1: What's your spot? No, you gotta go to Chubbies, man,
Speaker 1: I think I've ever been a chubby, has never been
Speaker 1: heard of chubby Chubbies. That's in like East Falls, man,
Speaker 1: That's like, that's where it's really at. You go go
Speaker 1: to some catfish in this summer. Then go up by
Speaker 1: the Philly you campus or I guess its Jefferson now,
Speaker 1: and and go and go get one of those chubbies. Man,
Speaker 1: you'll be you'll be happy you did so. Anyway, on
Speaker 1: for me ragging on you for your cheese steak choice.
Speaker 1: So Matt moves into the history and the characters you
Speaker 1: might find at the Halton Hilton Um. All great bars
Speaker 1: have a character too, he says. John Hanley bought the
Speaker 1: bar from his parents in nineteen sixty four and was
Speaker 1: the proprietor there until his death in He was always
Speaker 1: there to talk to people and provide some of his perspective,
Speaker 1: at least when he wasn't in his pickup park. Next
Speaker 1: to the building. I like this guy. John was a
Speaker 1: local legend and folk in his own special dialect. He
Speaker 1: held the history of the Halton close to his heart
Speaker 1: and would willingly produce some of the old photos from
Speaker 1: the area and had stories to tell about every one
Speaker 1: of them. Some of his most loyal customers, the folks
Speaker 1: that he served for years, described him as quiet, honest
Speaker 1: and honorable. Yeah, quiet, honest and honorable. I fit that
Speaker 1: bill except for quiet um. So to bring it home
Speaker 1: and to get to the best part, right, Matt says
Speaker 1: that upon John's death, his niece took the place over
Speaker 1: and updated it a bit um And as as he
Speaker 1: put it, he'd actually bring his wife there now. And
Speaker 1: that's cool. But that's also like a slippery slope because
Speaker 1: I know a few good bars that lost their magic
Speaker 1: after renovation. You know what I'm saying. The hole in
Speaker 1: the floor in the bat and the pissar kind of
Speaker 1: made it, you know what it was, um, And I
Speaker 1: hope that's not the case at the Hilton. But here's
Speaker 1: what really sealed the deal on including the Halton Hilton.
Speaker 1: With this nomination, Matt sent along a link to the
Speaker 1: official Halton Hilton saw Yes, the place has its own song.
Speaker 1: And while I wish we had time to play the
Speaker 1: whole thing, we don't. But really you'll get it with
Speaker 1: just the first thirty seconds way up and oh they'll
Speaker 1: carry either's a tome by the name of or the
Speaker 1: Criptian Clear and the claring flows on bone. There's a
Speaker 1: place where to do their meeting, have a drink and
Speaker 1: do some eating where the gossips saying, then you'll never here.
Speaker 1: Lie it was hotten. I was a Wilton, so I
Speaker 1: hit it for the Hilton to have a beer and
Speaker 1: I'll bared around some prize. They've been built in the
Speaker 1: days of Custer, and it's a home of the belly buster,
Speaker 1: and I'll visit it again before I die. You know,
Speaker 1: I've never visited a bar that had its own either,
Speaker 1: And man, I thought that was like reserved for cheers.
Speaker 1: I don't know who's singing that, but I want to
Speaker 1: hang out with that dude. I want to sell shiner
Speaker 1: with him. Do you know who it might be? It
Speaker 1: might be the Breeze, the guy that caught the p
Speaker 1: a state record Walleye. Like, dude, how much you want
Speaker 1: to bet the Breeze has like swigs some bourbon at
Speaker 1: the Halt and Hilton. He's from those parts anyway, Matt,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for a great nomination. This was
Speaker 1: this was a lot of fun. The theme song was amazing.
Speaker 1: Um And if you've got a fishy bar with or
Speaker 1: without a theme song that you'd like us to consider
Speaker 1: for a shout out here, send the deeds to Bent
Speaker 1: at the meat eater dot com. So, since we just
Speaker 1: got done talking drinking, I gotta ask, right, you posted
Speaker 1: some ice fishing videos on the ground from that little
Speaker 1: sare and I couldn't help but notice that a sketchy
Speaker 1: brown like like an old school bootlegger flip cap bottle
Speaker 1: kept making an appearance. Was that homemade hooch? Because that's
Speaker 1: what it looked like. In fact, some homemade hooch had
Speaker 1: a boy, you know. That was That was my very
Speaker 1: last bottle of a run of dandelion wine I made
Speaker 1: right around when the pandemic first hit, so like April
Speaker 1: or May, and you know I was I was out
Speaker 1: with I was out with Miles. Actually he came with me.
Speaker 1: It was me, Miles, my girlfriend, Miles, Miles Um, Miles kid,
Speaker 1: and Christine my buddy from the office here and we all,
Speaker 1: uh caught a couple of perch and a nice buzz
Speaker 1: because of it, except for Miles. Miles was he's doing
Speaker 1: one of those dry January things, so I couldn't. I
Speaker 1: couldn't get him to try it. Okay, well you know
Speaker 1: what didn't? Did you write a story about that about
Speaker 1: dandelion wine? Now I'm thinking about it. Wasn't there something
Speaker 1: on the meat eat site that you put together about
Speaker 1: how you made that? I did? Um, Yeah, I'll put
Speaker 1: the link in my i G bio for anyone that's interested.
Speaker 1: It's a fun little project I do like every year
Speaker 1: or two. It's I will say it is a royal
Speaker 1: pain in the ass because in order to make it like,
Speaker 1: the first thing you have to do is I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go through like a real quick explanation of the tediousness
Speaker 1: of this process is that you go to a field, right,
Speaker 1: make sure like it's not a dog park because they
Speaker 1: piss on the dandelions or like you don't get them
Speaker 1: from a bank where they're like spraying with like you know,
Speaker 1: round up. But you pick like buckets, like a ten
Speaker 1: gallon bucket full of dandelions or like halfway full, and
Speaker 1: then you take them home and you pull the pedals
Speaker 1: off of the little green cup that holds them all together.
Speaker 1: It's called the spel. So you pull all the pedals
Speaker 1: and you put them in a pot until you have
Speaker 1: like a full pot full of dandelion petals, because if
Speaker 1: you put the green ship in, it's gonna make them
Speaker 1: real bitter. That sounds excruciating. It's something you do when
Speaker 1: you have some time, like in the middle of a
Speaker 1: pandemic um. But you know, I love it when when
Speaker 1: when you have that, when you get everything all said
Speaker 1: and done and it's aged, and it's like if you
Speaker 1: like drinking like springtime or some ship. You know that's
Speaker 1: that's like such an It's like an Andrew zimmer And
Speaker 1: thing to say, like it tastes like grass coated and
Speaker 1: rain water on it. It's more boordine esque. But you
Speaker 1: know whatever, I'm not it's not. In fact, I tend
Speaker 1: not to like wine. I just happened to like this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would like bizarre foods anyhow, I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: a dead of winner and you have this thing you
Speaker 1: made a couple of springs ago. It's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I like that. Yeah, well you can you can explain
Speaker 1: it more. Later people can read the piece, but right now, um,
Speaker 1: we we have some other more pressing things to explain.
Speaker 1: Let's wrap things up with our news segment, the bent Helpline,
Speaker 1: where we answer your questions, and this week we even
Speaker 1: have a special guest. What do you laughing at, Martini?
Speaker 1: You're not an idiot, you're not a gambloony hell boy,
Speaker 1: You're a fisherman. So we've got a very special edition
Speaker 1: of the bent Helpline today. You've actually called in reinforcements
Speaker 1: to answer one of your question. We're joined today by
Speaker 1: my good friend Jim Fieva on The Water magazine, who
Speaker 1: was a co host here before before Hayden signed on
Speaker 1: full time. Jim how Art thou good, good? Great? How's
Speaker 1: it feel? How's it feel to be here as an
Speaker 1: expert in a specific, specific faction of fishing. We don't
Speaker 1: people don't even know what we're talking about. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you're the man, you're the guy. Oh yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: like I've earned it. So okay, so you know now
Speaker 1: that you mentioned it. Um So anyway, because here's what
Speaker 1: we're talking about. This this question comes to us from
Speaker 1: listen to Ryan Foster and he says, I am curious
Speaker 1: about float and fly technique. Have you guys used it
Speaker 1: and how did it work out? What's the setup you used?
Speaker 1: Is it a Bent approved technique? And he says, I
Speaker 1: feel dirty watching these videos on it being a fly angler,
Speaker 1: but I am not a complete fly guy, Okay, So
Speaker 1: he dabbles in other arenas. Um, I like to fish
Speaker 1: and catch fish. I think we all can agree on that. Ryan,
Speaker 1: Thanks and keep up the good work guys. So this
Speaker 1: is the thing. I know what flow and fly is.
Speaker 1: I get the premise, but I don't do it yet.
Speaker 1: Jim Jim here on a weekly basis in the winter
Speaker 1: months is just like you are the float and fly
Speaker 1: guy on Instagram. You do this a lot. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: we just gotta call Jim because he does this all
Speaker 1: the time. So rather than me like make ship up
Speaker 1: about what I think I know right, which might not
Speaker 1: be anything, can you explain to us what float and
Speaker 1: fly technique is. Yeah. So I first read about it
Speaker 1: man probably in the late nineties and an in Fisherman
Speaker 1: magazine article, and it was real big for smallmouth bass
Speaker 1: in some in moving water. It was really big for
Speaker 1: them in the springtime. Also, it's what I use it
Speaker 1: for is in the cold water months. So that's one
Speaker 1: of the things I think. I know it is a
Speaker 1: cold like it shines in the off season in cold
Speaker 1: cold water. So all you're doing is suspending a hair
Speaker 1: jig under a float and it's they're usually tied with
Speaker 1: kind of synthetic materials that are gonna have a lot
Speaker 1: of kind of breathing and action as that jake just
Speaker 1: suspends under the float, and it's it's kind of fallen
Speaker 1: out of favor, Like I don't think it's a modern
Speaker 1: technique that guys are really into. Maybe it's coming back
Speaker 1: around again. Seems like all those things come back around,
Speaker 1: but ned riggs now or like that's that's all I
Speaker 1: hear about, is guys using in the winter in the
Speaker 1: wintertime ned rigging in the wintertime. So yeah, so that's
Speaker 1: again not the expert here, but that was the impression
Speaker 1: I got, Like it's it's specifically for suspended fish in
Speaker 1: cold water, and it's not super aggressive, right, Like you're
Speaker 1: kind of just like letting the fly breathe and it's
Speaker 1: just hanging in their face or the jig. That's the
Speaker 1: other misconception. It's called float and fly. You just said,
Speaker 1: though it's a jig, you're not actually hanging a fly
Speaker 1: under the bomber. Yeah, it's just it's a hair jig
Speaker 1: on either a one eighth or one sixteenth pounce jake had.
Speaker 1: Those are the most popular sizes, so it's a pretty
Speaker 1: small presentation. But even though it's small, I mean people
Speaker 1: have called seven eight pound large mouth bass on it.
Speaker 1: It's really good for you know, small mouth bass four
Speaker 1: five pounds. I haven't caught a seven or eight pound
Speaker 1: large mouth on it, but I've gotten the excess of
Speaker 1: five pounds on it. Right. But it was sort of
Speaker 1: developed from moving water, But yet you're using it in
Speaker 1: still water right up in Massachusetts. Yeah, I'm using it
Speaker 1: in the ponds here. Um. You know, I live on
Speaker 1: the coast on Cape con so we don't get ice
Speaker 1: every year, but those ponds are still full of fish
Speaker 1: and there's great large mouth bass fishing there. You can
Speaker 1: fish to spending jerk baits or I like this technique
Speaker 1: because one, it works really well in cold water. And
Speaker 1: I'm using a real long like ultra light noodle rod
Speaker 1: to throw it because you need a little extra length
Speaker 1: to one not only cast like the you know long leader,
Speaker 1: but Also you're fishing it still, so you're gonna have
Speaker 1: a lot of slack on the water, so you want
Speaker 1: to be able to have a lot of room to
Speaker 1: lift to set the when that goes down at the
Speaker 1: end of your cast. So is there like a specialized
Speaker 1: float or something, or it's just like your running the
Speaker 1: mill slip bobber. So serious bass guys that are on
Speaker 1: bass boats and have a lot of back cast room
Speaker 1: are using fixed loats so they know they're sending it
Speaker 1: to the same depth, you know, nine ft rods. I'm
Speaker 1: doing it from shore for my kayak mostly, so I
Speaker 1: use a little slip float and that one's called the
Speaker 1: phil wobble bobber. The whole the whole idea is it's
Speaker 1: a tear drop shaped float and it has written on
Speaker 1: it you know this one will this one will work
Speaker 1: best with a one eighthounds jake. So it's like you're
Speaker 1: setting up for center pit fishing where the floats to
Speaker 1: spend a certain amount of weight and the wobble bobber
Speaker 1: the idea behind it. No, it's not just fun to say,
Speaker 1: but it uh when you have wind or waves, it
Speaker 1: throws some action. It really does wobble all over the
Speaker 1: surface gives a little bit more very subtle action to
Speaker 1: the jig. That's what I's gonna ask. Like, I imagine
Speaker 1: at some point you have to work it, and at
Speaker 1: some point if you have a chop, like especially when
Speaker 1: it's cold, you probably get smashed just letting that thing
Speaker 1: bob around out there. Right if you cast it near fish,
Speaker 1: you can't pause it for long enough. The problem is
Speaker 1: it's you. It's long pausitive. You have to know where
Speaker 1: the fish are, and it's not a search presentation, right,
Speaker 1: got you. Well, I mean, without even knowing all that,
Speaker 1: I already knew it was a ben approved technique because
Speaker 1: to me, there's no unapproved technique here barring I don't know,
Speaker 1: throwing a spear at him or something. Hey hey, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, no. We have we have listeners who are
Speaker 1: spear fishing. In fact, if you look, I'm wearing a
Speaker 1: spear fishing hoodie right now from my buddy Ryan Ebert.
Speaker 1: So well, that's a specialized thing to the guys. That's
Speaker 1: cool and if I can, okay, fine, whatever whatever. So
Speaker 1: I hope that answers Ryan's questions. I assume that that
Speaker 1: is the that's the floating fly he's talking about the
Speaker 1: only other thing that comes to mind, or like those
Speaker 1: casting bubbles you can put on your spinning rod to
Speaker 1: dry fly. Jim's like, I am about that too. I
Speaker 1: never pick up a fly rod. I want to get
Speaker 1: into that. That is another that's also big up here,
Speaker 1: where it's the clear casting bubbles and you filled them
Speaker 1: up with a little bit of water and then the
Speaker 1: guy's up here all fish like wooly buggers. I've seen
Speaker 1: guys used the floating up Berkeley power worms behind them,
Speaker 1: and that is really good for trout. But I I
Speaker 1: I haven't dabbled in that yet, But that's like a
Speaker 1: trout technique. That's that kind of casting bubble and fly,
Speaker 1: like you said, if you're just determined not to use
Speaker 1: a fly rod, and then that's also like kind of
Speaker 1: similar to like Joe, you and I talked a little
Speaker 1: bit about, like you know, people fishing with flies using
Speaker 1: noodle rods on like the Great Lakes steelhead scene. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I've thrown a lot of flies for steelhead
Speaker 1: on on long conventional noodle spinning rods with and without floats.
Speaker 1: Um for steelhead, I don't know, I don't find any
Speaker 1: of that dirty. It's all just it just works. It's
Speaker 1: just a different kind of prison. And then the and
Speaker 1: the other good thing is like your guides don't ice
Speaker 1: up is bad and like the in the middle of
Speaker 1: winter because you're not like sending that big thick fly
Speaker 1: line through them and get them all way right, just
Speaker 1: come up to the Pulaski. Man, everybody's just got motto
Speaker 1: on their fly reels. Do you tell me about it?
Speaker 1: Tell me about it. Yeah, it's not there's not even
Speaker 1: fly line. Well, I am so glad that I had
Speaker 1: a float and Fly expert to call for this. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm a floating fly enthusiast editor in chief of Float
Speaker 1: and Fly Monthly. Um. But I mean I can, I can.
Speaker 1: I can tell you Ryan that even though I haven't
Speaker 1: done it, I'd like to. But it absolutely does work because,
Speaker 1: like you know, I'm I'm sitting here staring at the
Speaker 1: computer and Jim's posting his morning floating fly session photos
Speaker 1: and catching a lot of fish. So Jim, thank you
Speaker 1: for that. Um, Ryan, thank you for the question. If
Speaker 1: you've got a question you'd like us to maybe answer
Speaker 1: here on the show, you can d m them to
Speaker 1: me on the Instagram. Or Hayden, or just go ahead
Speaker 1: and fire those off too. Bent at the meat eater
Speaker 1: dot com. All right, well that's it for this week, degenerates.
Speaker 1: If you're presently tying up f G nots for your
Speaker 1: floating fly session tomorrow, I say a little drip of
Speaker 1: superglue on the finishing raps never hurt anyone. That's what
Speaker 1: I would say. I would also say, please keep sending
Speaker 1: in your questions, bar nominations, awkward photos, sale but items
Speaker 1: and what every else um you think up to Bent
Speaker 1: at the meat eater dot com um, and don't forget
Speaker 1: use those degenerate angler hashtags. Uh you know we see
Speaker 1: all those posts them, you know, I don't know. We
Speaker 1: like checking up on what you're into. So you know
Speaker 1: it's good when I'm at the office and I want
Speaker 1: to slack a little bit. There you go, Yeah, seeing that.
Speaker 1: And finally, hey, keep in mind that not tying tools
Speaker 1: are for the week, and God gave you teeth so
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have to buy two tungsten carbide now clippers.
Speaker 1: M