WEBVTT - On the New Periphery, an Interview with Joey Ayoub 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:09.160 Holy shit, it could happen here it in in this 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.600 case being being the podcast that you're listening to, and 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.360 in fact it is it is happening here in your ears. 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.520 But you know what else is happening here? The world's 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.200 kind of fallen apart. Well, I don't know, not the world, 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:25.960 but the structures in the world that we all relied 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.800 upon for uh, you know, existence and ship sure are 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:34.200 crumbling anyway. I'm Robert Evans. This is a podcast about 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.120 how things are falling apart and how to deal with 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.400 that ship. Um, if you're new to the show, maybe 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.000 check out our first five episodes. They'll catch you up 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.720 there Evergreen. But this week we have a special guest 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.280 and a special conversation to have that I think is 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.560 going to be edifying for a lot of people. I 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.280 would like to introduce Mr Joey. Ayub Joey. You are 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.880 a writer and a researcher in the host of the 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:02.320 Fire These Times, which is a fantastico cast. Um, Joey, 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:07.200 how are you doing today? I'm fine, I'm up. I'm 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.800 operating with the Norman parameters. As I said before. Yeah, 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.800 I'm I'm impressed by that because I'm I'm constantly in 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.399 the process of falling apart, which is why I was 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:21.760 late to this call. Joey, you want to give our 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:28.240 listeners a little background on yourself? Sure, Um, emotionally from Lebanon. 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.440 It's why I go up. My family is kind of mixed, 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.800 a bit of Pedestinians, but of your Talians, but of Argentinians, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.880 kind of fall over the place. Uh. And I'm currently 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:40.119 in Switzerland continuing my PhD, which one day will actually 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.520 be done, I hope. I have been told that there 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.200 is a life after the PhD. Yeah, So that's what 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:48.520 I do. And I do podcasts and I write and 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:53.000 I stuff that I probably forgot. And uh, you you 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:57.320 wrote a column that I I quite admire for a 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.520 website called Lausan, which was based on a term that 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:05.440 I think it was the Mangol media folks came up with, right, um, 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:07.680 and that term is the periphery. And and one of 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.600 the reasons I think this is useful. So when I 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:11.639 grew up, and I suspect it was the same. I 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:13.160 don't know if it was the same for Garrison because 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:14.400 he grew up in a weird cult, but it was 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.480 probably the same for Christopher. Um. The terms we heard 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.440 a lot for different like it was either basically the 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.840 United States or Europe, or it was the third world. Right, 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.480 those were the terms that I grew up with, and 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:26.919 I wasn't I was like probably seventeen or eighteen before 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.320 I actually learned that. The terms first and third world 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:32.360 kind of came from the Cold War, where like the 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.680 US is the first World, the Soviet Bloc is kind 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:36.880 of the second world, and then everyone else it's the 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:41.280 third world. Obviously, that's not a great collective nown for 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.079 referring to any group of anything. We try not to 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.000 use third world. And the new term has kind of 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.760 become more I don't know, vogue, maybe the wrong word, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.400 but people have started using the global South to refer 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.640 to um everywhere that's not the US and Europe and 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.760 you know, UM a handful of other countries and kind of, uh, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.920 that's not great either, um because for one thing, a 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.240 lot of those countries aren't South, and also it isn't 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.880 North either. Yeah. So I'm interested in this because there 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.200 is a use in having kind of collective nouns to 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.360 refer to groups of people from multiple nations. UM and 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.919 in the West isn't going to do for most places um, 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.720 And I like this term the periphery because kind of 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.000 the way that you in the Mangal folks kind of 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.920 have described it makes a tremendous amount of sense to me. 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:33.600 And it makes a tremendous amount of sense because it's 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.480 not trying to group people together based on their relationship 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:42.920 to of a Western centered kind of like international power 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.200 dynamics understanding that even a lot of people on the 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.600 left here kind of fall into where you know, um, 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:53.160 you're either imperialist or anti imperialist, but being anti imperialist 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:56.560 means supporting a lot of imperialist powers because they're against 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.280 whatever imperialist power you were born into. Anyway, I wonder 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.000 if you if we could start by kind of getting 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:05.760 your your explanation of what is the periphery? Um? And 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.480 and and how do you see that? Yeah? Yeah, I 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.680 mean so I'll just say it like up front that 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.360 I don't expect that term to work every time and 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.560 in all contexts. For example, I know someone who who 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.800 like works in development studies and who we had a 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:25.040 pretty informative chat about the terms global South and global 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.159 Note and she was pretty convincing that they can be 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.560 useful in in in a certain like in the materials 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.400 analysis of certain things. So I'm not I'm not kind 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:36.120 of here to say it like it doesn't work ever basically, um, 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.280 but I think what really clicked with me, or the 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.240 number of things that really clicked with me in one 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.080 is that conversation with fl Event on Margin Media on 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.080 their on their own podcast as well I've written for them, 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.200 and then we had a chat about it was like 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.080 about the explosion in baby Wood last year, and at 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:54.679 some point the topic of the periphery, which they coined, 0:04:54.720 --> 0:05:00.000 I didn't coin it came about. And the best way 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.800 he described it, which is a bit ignic given the 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:06.719 podcast I'm on now, is that when anti authority in 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:11.160 Turks he's from Turkey, see protests in for example Lebanon 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:12.960 of Hong Kong, which was what happened. They were happening 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.080 at the same time in two thousand nineteen and Iraq 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.840 and other places, child and so on. They sort of 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.479 think that it could happen here, like you know, it 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.760 could happen in Turkey essentially, which is not the case 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.800 often with like French leftists or American leftists, so usually 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.600 leftists that are broadly speaking in the West. Now the 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.479 obviously exceptions to all of these rules. Not every Turkish 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.080 leftist things like that, not every Western leftist things like that, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:41.039 but it's kind of a general trend. And for me, 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:42.960 for example, the way I can explain it is that 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.560 a podcast like it could happen here, where you're sort 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:49.480 of describing a situation that might happen here here in America, 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.640 let's say, wouldn't necessarily be needed in for example, Lebanon, 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.240 because it's already happening, it's been happening for some time now, 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.960 and that that tension in some sense when I would 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.240 because nowative in Switzerland, so I mean, I mean, you know, 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.320 in Geneva, which is as international as at the center 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.240 in some sense as it gets almost It's this tension 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.880 between my daily life essentially here and what's happening back 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.960 home on a daily basis is what sort of led 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.760 me to think about this other terms the periphery, because 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.279 I just felt that at least on an emotional level, 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.200 global stuth wasn't working as well. That makes sense, And 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.279 one of the things I really find so useful and 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.159 and admirable about this term is that it it is 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.560 a it's a collective now and for referring to a 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.400 group of people, but it separates those people from the 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.840 state from their government. So when you're when you're talking 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.680 about the periphery and you include people from lebanon Um, 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:46.599 people from from Palestine, people from Syria, you're not including 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.800 the government's you know, it's not the states, it's the 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.400 because the people are peripheral to the power of those 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.040 states and to the blocks that those states find themselves, 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.000 and which is why they, you know, any any efforts 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:04.440 at autonomy the communal level are crushed so violently. Um. Yeah, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.799 that's why for me, global South in the term includes 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.520 the states from the SOCOL Global South that are crushing 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.640 the activists from the SOCO Global South. And so I 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.800 just felt that I just needed this other layer, this 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:20.280 other term that explains that dynamic as well. Yeah. Um, 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:24.280 And you know, one of the things you you just 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.800 were talking about was kind of the way in which 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.760 a lot of leftists in the United States and chunks 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:34.200 of the West, we'll kind of disregard liberatory struggles overseas 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:38.720 that don't neatly fit into a very simple ideological category. 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:41.320 I'm kind of wondering, is you know a kid who 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.040 grew up in Lebanon and kind of I'm going to 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.960 assume mostly focused on the regional kind of politics. When 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:50.640 did you start to realize that that was something that 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.040 was going on internationally? Like when did you when did 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.880 you realize kind of like, you know, I think a 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.160 lot of folks were taken surprise by the reaction of 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.239 a lot of the international left, like the Arab Spring, 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.520 And I'm kind of wondering was that when it it 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:05.240 kind of hit home for you? Where did you start 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:10.040 to see stirrings of those problems at an earlier day. Yeah, 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.640 two thousand eleven is when it kind of became very 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.920 concrete in some sense. But I grew up having to 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.720 visit Switzerland actually because my dad is a Swiss national, 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.760 and I would do so on the Lebanese passport obviously, 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.520 so I would always need to apply for visas beforehand 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:26.720 and so on, you know, like two or three times 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.160 a year sometimes, and that sort of it. In the 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.000 in the retrospect, it was those early experiences just meeting 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.480 the border, just experiencing a border all the time. That's 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.000 sort of I think anyways, one of those things that 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.000 I've been thinking I can get respect, like planted the 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:46.840 seeds of what was to come, if that makes sense, 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.160 because I was always peripheral. Whenever I would go to Switzerland, 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:52.600 I was never allowed to stay there longer longer than 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:54.480 let's say, three weeks if they gave me three weeks, 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:56.679 or three months if they gave me three months. And 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.080 it sort of felt weird coming to Europe all the time, 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.400 because I'm actually born in France, but I don't have 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.040 the citizenship, and so it was there was the sense 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.160 that I felt it weird having to ask permission from 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.880 someone to go to the place where I literally started 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:12.920 my existence. And so from on a on a very basic, 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.800 basic level that's never quite always like squared with me, 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.439 and that like led to a number of things that 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:23.800 from Lebanon I was seeing the rest of the world 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.160 in that sense, and it took me sometime. I think, yeah, 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.240 I think after their spring, especially when I started seeing 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.800 that Lebanon is perificult or I didn't. I didn't really 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.600 have a term for that before. And the quote unquote 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.040 real things were happening in in the West. Obviously that's 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.079 all problematic, and I don't mean that literally because the 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.200 real things are happening every all the time. But in 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:44.839 the sense of what gets to matter, whose lives get 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.120 to matter more, and so on and so forth. Now, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.280 one of the things I think about a lot when 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.600 I read your work, UM, and when I consume what 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.720 with Mangal Media puts out Mangal media is UM. I 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.600 guess you called the journalistic collective UM made up of 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.319 of people A lot. I think a lot of them 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.280 were or are have worked as like fixers in uh 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:07.679 in in you know, the periphery in parts of the 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.680 Middle East, UM. And they're What I find so vital 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.679 about their voices is that it was as as an 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:17.120 American journalist who has worked over there, it was always 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.480 those folks who had the best stories. It's just that 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.000 those stories got published with the New York Times or 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.040 with the New Yorker, the Washington Post under somebody else's byline. Right, UM. 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.920 That's the way journalism actually works. And you have you 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.480 do have some some reporters like um, I'm spacing on 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:33.240 his name. But the fellow who wrote no good Men 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.440 among the Living, who uh yes, yes, who has done it? 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.760 I mean I think just I'm sure has local sources 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.000 in Afghanistan, but also speaks the language, and it is 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.200 just an accept but for the most part, especially when 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.760 you see somebody with my complexion reporting from over there, 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.640 if they're getting good ship, it's because of it's because 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.880 of a local UM. And what I like about Mangal 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.280 is that it it breaks down kind of that barrier 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.640 between that kind of that kind of white person filter, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.319 but when the actual people living on the ground and 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:06.480 understanding the situation the person who's trying to package it UM. 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:07.920 Which is not to say that I think there's no 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.600 value in having a local package. And I think anytime 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.520 you're trying to translate a story across there is some 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:15.440 reason for that. But I also think it leads to 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.720 I mean, I know it leads to problematic kind of 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.360 Americans said. There's a lot of problems that it leads to. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.640 It that we don't have enough time to discuss all 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:25.720 of it. But what I'd like to talk about with 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.520 you is is kind of how is consumers of of 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.199 media in the United States and in in in the West. Um, 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.400 which most people listening to this are everyone on this call, 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.320 but you was born in the US or a place 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.280 that is the same as the US but with a 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:44.520 better hat. Um, I'm talking about Canada. UM. So how 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.679 do how do how do you recommend we if we 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.160 if we're if we aspire to be internationalists and to 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:55.800 to avoid falling into that trap of of flattening the 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.319 struggles of other people to fit inside of a simple 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:05.560 ideological rubric, how do you recommend people try and cut 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.079 out or or minimize the extent possible, um, the bias 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.760 of of whatever region they live in when reading news 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.240 for another part of the world, Like, how do you 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.839 do that? Well? Imperfectly right, Like it's never gonna be, 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.040 never gonna be you know, there's always gonna be flaws, 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:24.960 there's always gonna be some learning curve to all of 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.800 that as well. One thing that's worked for me, um, 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:30.920 because you know, I did grow up in Lebanon, and 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.800 so there is that dimension. But I was I had 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.280 a pretty sheltered child childhood. You know, media was mostly 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:38.720 on the Internet, and so I could kind of go 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.240 wherever I want, and I was pretty is up until 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.160 the certain point. I was pretty um, let's say, sheltered 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.040 from what was happening even around in Lebanon, around Lebanon 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.680 up until let's say that before just before the air sprain. 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.160 So I do know what it's like to kind of 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:59.040 have biases against you know, other places and have certain Yeah, 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.280 just it's just human flaws at the end of the day. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:06.680 The main difference I think is just what gets centered 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.120 and what gets peripheral. I mean, just to use that 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.760 same term again. One thing that I've been doing to 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:13.559 kind of help myself, and so I'll just speak from 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.200 personal experience, is go to some websites like Loves and 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.439 I've been I've been I read what Loves and regularly 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.560 mangel media as well. And there are a number of 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.480 other websites that are trying as much as they can 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.400 to actually write for one another. Like they're actually trying 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.320 to write with the assumption that most people who are 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.720 going to read are not from the West. And that's 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.720 not easy to do for language barriers. For example, if 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.920 they're if they're mostly writing in English because the dias 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.319 progress of the world, if there is some sense and 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.960 kind of connecting to one another, we're probably going to 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.960 do it in English. I'm just realistically speaking, and so 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.240 maybe Spanish, but like you know, probably English. And that's 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.200 that's that's something that we have to sort of contend with. 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.679 It's not easy because it could be that I can 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.280 spend all of my time having conversations with let's say, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.080 other people in the diasporas of other groups, let's say, 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.600 and because I'm doing it entirely in English, then I'm 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.960 actually not conversing with people back home, and so that 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:11.480 hates another problem, and it's there's no easy solution. Basically, 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:16.000 there's no I don't really have a A A how 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.000 do you say this? Like A yeah, like a solution 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.600 that can fit he can fit any scenarios. So I 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.760 don't really have a good answer to that. Actually, I 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.880 just think that heating diverse sources is the best way 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.360 to do things, but with a critical eye as well, 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.560 although I feel like that's kind of a boring answer. 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:36.560 And for me, the thing that has been quite refreshing 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.440 is seeing projects like Love Side, which is why I've 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.640 published like a an interview with like they. We did 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.320 an interview conversation thing where we were exploring parallels and 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.480 contrast between Hong Kong and Lebanon, for example, and that 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.160 for me was a piece where I was entirely thinking 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.400 about the people I was talking to, like people from 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.720 Hong Kong, and that's it. We had a diaspora experience 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.600 in common, but I wasn't thinking and we were speaking 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.280 in English, but I wasn't thinking about how is this 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.720 going to be received in New York or Paris or 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.440 London or whatever. And I feel like these more of 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.320 these probably will help because it centers different voices rather 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.320 than the ones that were used to But even though 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.880 its center, I'm sort of saying it with like an asterisk, 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.600 because my entire point is that I'm actually uncomfortable with 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:22.120 certain situations where I risk being the center of his 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.200 story when there are so many things happening to my 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.840 periphery as well, and so it can happen, it can 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:30.240 happen on different layers. If it's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.040 I mean that's sort of the problem of being as 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.560 you are, kind of a child of two worlds, where 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.240 you you have the benefit of it makes it easier 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:43.520 to explain both places to the other. Um, but you also, uh, 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:45.600 you have a wall kind of or at least a 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.560 couple of them up up inside you, um, which yeah, 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.640 um yeah, And it is like there's no there's no 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.840 kind of gaining perfect perspective on any place, including the 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.200 place where you live. But I do think it's important 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.640 to talk about kind of at least de centering to 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.840 the extent that's possible, like Western voices when we're trying 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:21.360 to understand places that are not Western. M So I 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.000 think think with fair amount, just be a chat over 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.000 the year, particularly during some of the nonsense last year. 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.400 Is um internationalism, which is is a real concern I 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.480 think of everybody on this show, and something that used 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.680 to be in a lot stronger state than it is 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.480 in the left. Um. And I what do you see 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:49.760 as the primary barriers to functional internationalism at the moment um? Well, 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.920 West centrism is I think a primary one. Racism Islamophobia 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.040 are pretty common as well. Um, Islamophobia is a pretty 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.920 massive one, uh, to the point that even non Muslims 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.200 like me can be swiped kind of kind of just 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.359 taken with it as well. And I just I just 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.920 think that when I say West centerism, I don't even 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.520 only mean people who are fromwhat from the West and 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.480 are thinking about the West as the center of the world, 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.920 but I also mean, like left is from other parts 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.160 of the world. I think that the only enemy is 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.800 is the West, or the only enemy is America for example. 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.520 And uh, you know, Christopher and I had chats about 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:29.720 this as well on my own podcast actually about the 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.119 channel men, the the legacy of channel men as well. Right, Like, 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:40.080 it's not just misunderstood or um yeah, misunderstood among let's say, 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.639 White Americans, but it could also be misunderstood among Chinese 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.679 American for example. There are these multiple like these multiple 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:51.000 layers in which something can be misunderstood on different layers 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.760 as well, if that makes sense. And I for me, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.639 the problem with the West centrism is that it takes 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.240 up so much oxygen in the room. It's just take stup. 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.560 So we people like me and others, And like I've 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.679 I've met folks from like the Balkans and in the 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.960 Middle East and Southeast Asia, and like almost any group 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.320 I can think of, I've met them, they have complained 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.560 about pretty much the same thing that they ended up 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.199 spending so much time on the Internet debunking disinformation or 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.240 debunking tankies or de punking campus and or debunking what 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:25.440 have you, or just misinformation sometimes and this this ends 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.280 up being pretty exhausting, Like this ends up being like 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.119 ship is happening on the ground, like things are actually 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.640 happening on the ground, and activists from let's say by route. Oh, 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.879 they didn't happen as much in Bayhood, but you know 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.440 from Iraq or Syria, Syria especially obviously, but Hong Kong 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.280 as well. You know, they have to deal with concrete 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.360 problems on the ground, but at the same time they 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.600 have to worry about how this is being perceived on 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:52.199 the internet, because usually it's assumed that how it's perceived 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.800 on the internet, So, especially in the Anglophone online media, 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.680 escape can have real life consequences on the ground. And 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.600 this is something that is very difficult to tackle because 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.840 it's not enough to just fight them by having more 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.960 allow sense and more mongel media. For one, we just 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.760 don't have the resources to challenge a Fox News or 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.240 CNN or what have you. Um And for two, it's 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.800 just exhausting the main the main I think the main 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.960 thing that has stopped most activists I can think of, 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.040 or at least they've taken a break or what have 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.479 what have you. It's just burned out more than anything. 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.120 It's not even well in many cases. Obviously it's also 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.560 therex threats from the state and stuff like that, but 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.560 more often than not, it's just being exhausted from having 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.280 to spend so much time dealing with what's happening on 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.120 the ground at the same time making sure that what's 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.280 happening on the ground isn't being misinterpreted or you know, 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.600 having to deal with this information or what have you. 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.800 And so basically the responsibility ends up being on people 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.959 consuming these kinds of media. And I don't want to 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.720 make it to individualistic either. That are structural problems to 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.360 these things. As I said, CNN, the resources all of that. 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.680 But given the I can't Lena is not gonna listen 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.399 to me. The other the next best thing is trying 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.320 to just speak to just people who are willing to listen. Essentially, 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.480 and you talked a bit about I mean the situation 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.480 in Lebanon right now. If people aren't aware, Um, there 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.920 was a massive explosion UM a year or so ago, 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.240 and everything's kind of been in free fall sense, and 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.439 and what's happening, what's happening in Beiruts and across like that. 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:33.240 There have been massive wildfires that have destroyed a huge 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.920 chunk of the of the country's forests. UM and a 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.280 lart like just kind of society, uh, seems to be 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.560 breaking down in a lot of areas. The stores don't 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.479 have food, people don't like the inflation has has reached 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.639 kind of a nightmarish level. What do you like we're 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.600 we're talking about? You know, these are all kind of 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:55.080 the same problems that we're talking about everywhere. It's just 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.760 it it's much more severe at the moment there, and 0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:59.840 it's it's in a much more advanced state for variety 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:04.560 of reasons. Do you do you have any hope for mitigation? 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.360 How could the situation improve? I guess, like I I'm 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.480