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Speaker 1: Holy shit, it could happen here it in in this

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Speaker 1: case being being the podcast that you're listening to, and

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Speaker 1: in fact it is it is happening here in your ears.

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Speaker 1: But you know what else is happening here? The world's

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Speaker 1: kind of fallen apart. Well, I don't know, not the world,

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Speaker 1: but the structures in the world that we all relied

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Speaker 1: upon for uh, you know, existence and ship sure are

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Speaker 1: crumbling anyway. I'm Robert Evans. This is a podcast about

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Speaker 1: how things are falling apart and how to deal with

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Speaker 1: that ship. Um, if you're new to the show, maybe

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Speaker 1: check out our first five episodes. They'll catch you up

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Speaker 1: there Evergreen. But this week we have a special guest

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Speaker 1: and a special conversation to have that I think is

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Speaker 1: going to be edifying for a lot of people. I

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Speaker 1: would like to introduce Mr Joey. Ayub Joey. You are

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Speaker 1: a writer and a researcher in the host of the

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Speaker 1: Fire These Times, which is a fantastico cast. Um, Joey,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing today? I'm fine, I'm up. I'm

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Speaker 1: operating with the Norman parameters. As I said before. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm impressed by that because I'm I'm constantly in

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Speaker 1: the process of falling apart, which is why I was

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Speaker 1: late to this call. Joey, you want to give our

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Speaker 1: listeners a little background on yourself? Sure, Um, emotionally from Lebanon.

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Speaker 1: It's why I go up. My family is kind of mixed,

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Speaker 1: a bit of Pedestinians, but of your Talians, but of Argentinians,

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Speaker 1: kind of fall over the place. Uh. And I'm currently

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Speaker 1: in Switzerland continuing my PhD, which one day will actually

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Speaker 1: be done, I hope. I have been told that there

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Speaker 1: is a life after the PhD. Yeah, So that's what

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Speaker 1: I do. And I do podcasts and I write and

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Speaker 1: I stuff that I probably forgot. And uh, you you

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Speaker 1: wrote a column that I I quite admire for a

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Speaker 1: website called Lausan, which was based on a term that

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Speaker 1: I think it was the Mangol media folks came up with, right, um,

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Speaker 1: and that term is the periphery. And and one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons I think this is useful. So when I

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Speaker 1: grew up, and I suspect it was the same. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it was the same for Garrison because

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Speaker 1: he grew up in a weird cult, but it was

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Speaker 1: probably the same for Christopher. Um. The terms we heard

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Speaker 1: a lot for different like it was either basically the

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Speaker 1: United States or Europe, or it was the third world. Right,

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Speaker 1: those were the terms that I grew up with, and

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Speaker 1: I wasn't I was like probably seventeen or eighteen before

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Speaker 1: I actually learned that. The terms first and third world

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Speaker 1: kind of came from the Cold War, where like the

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Speaker 1: US is the first World, the Soviet Bloc is kind

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Speaker 1: of the second world, and then everyone else it's the

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Speaker 1: third world. Obviously, that's not a great collective nown for

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Speaker 1: referring to any group of anything. We try not to

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Speaker 1: use third world. And the new term has kind of

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Speaker 1: become more I don't know, vogue, maybe the wrong word,

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Speaker 1: but people have started using the global South to refer

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Speaker 1: to um everywhere that's not the US and Europe and

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Speaker 1: you know, UM a handful of other countries and kind of, uh,

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Speaker 1: that's not great either, um because for one thing, a

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Speaker 1: lot of those countries aren't South, and also it isn't

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Speaker 1: North either. Yeah. So I'm interested in this because there

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Speaker 1: is a use in having kind of collective nouns to

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Speaker 1: refer to groups of people from multiple nations. UM and

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Speaker 1: in the West isn't going to do for most places um,

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Speaker 1: And I like this term the periphery because kind of

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Speaker 1: the way that you in the Mangal folks kind of

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Speaker 1: have described it makes a tremendous amount of sense to me.

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Speaker 1: And it makes a tremendous amount of sense because it's

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Speaker 1: not trying to group people together based on their relationship

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Speaker 1: to of a Western centered kind of like international power

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Speaker 1: dynamics understanding that even a lot of people on the

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Speaker 1: left here kind of fall into where you know, um,

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Speaker 1: you're either imperialist or anti imperialist, but being anti imperialist

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Speaker 1: means supporting a lot of imperialist powers because they're against

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Speaker 1: whatever imperialist power you were born into. Anyway, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you if we could start by kind of getting

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Speaker 1: your your explanation of what is the periphery? Um? And

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Speaker 1: and and how do you see that? Yeah? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean so I'll just say it like up front that

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Speaker 1: I don't expect that term to work every time and

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Speaker 1: in all contexts. For example, I know someone who who

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Speaker 1: like works in development studies and who we had a

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Speaker 1: pretty informative chat about the terms global South and global

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Speaker 1: Note and she was pretty convincing that they can be

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Speaker 1: useful in in in a certain like in the materials

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Speaker 1: analysis of certain things. So I'm not I'm not kind

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Speaker 1: of here to say it like it doesn't work ever basically, um,

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Speaker 1: but I think what really clicked with me, or the

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Speaker 1: number of things that really clicked with me in one

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Speaker 1: is that conversation with fl Event on Margin Media on

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Speaker 1: their on their own podcast as well I've written for them,

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Speaker 1: and then we had a chat about it was like

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Speaker 1: about the explosion in baby Wood last year, and at

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Speaker 1: some point the topic of the periphery, which they coined,

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Speaker 1: I didn't coin it came about. And the best way

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Speaker 1: he described it, which is a bit ignic given the

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Speaker 1: podcast I'm on now, is that when anti authority in

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Speaker 1: Turks he's from Turkey, see protests in for example Lebanon

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Speaker 1: of Hong Kong, which was what happened. They were happening

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Speaker 1: at the same time in two thousand nineteen and Iraq

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Speaker 1: and other places, child and so on. They sort of

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Speaker 1: think that it could happen here, like you know, it

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Speaker 1: could happen in Turkey essentially, which is not the case

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Speaker 1: often with like French leftists or American leftists, so usually

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Speaker 1: leftists that are broadly speaking in the West. Now the

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Speaker 1: obviously exceptions to all of these rules. Not every Turkish

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Speaker 1: leftist things like that, not every Western leftist things like that,

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Speaker 1: but it's kind of a general trend. And for me,

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Speaker 1: for example, the way I can explain it is that

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Speaker 1: a podcast like it could happen here, where you're sort

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Speaker 1: of describing a situation that might happen here here in America,

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Speaker 1: let's say, wouldn't necessarily be needed in for example, Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: because it's already happening, it's been happening for some time now,

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Speaker 1: and that that tension in some sense when I would

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Speaker 1: because nowative in Switzerland, so I mean, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: in Geneva, which is as international as at the center

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Speaker 1: in some sense as it gets almost It's this tension

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Speaker 1: between my daily life essentially here and what's happening back

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Speaker 1: home on a daily basis is what sort of led

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Speaker 1: me to think about this other terms the periphery, because

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Speaker 1: I just felt that at least on an emotional level,

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Speaker 1: global stuth wasn't working as well. That makes sense, And

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Speaker 1: one of the things I really find so useful and

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Speaker 1: and admirable about this term is that it it is

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Speaker 1: a it's a collective now and for referring to a

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Speaker 1: group of people, but it separates those people from the

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Speaker 1: state from their government. So when you're when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the periphery and you include people from lebanon Um,

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Speaker 1: people from from Palestine, people from Syria, you're not including

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Speaker 1: the government's you know, it's not the states, it's the

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Speaker 1: because the people are peripheral to the power of those

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Speaker 1: states and to the blocks that those states find themselves,

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Speaker 1: and which is why they, you know, any any efforts

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Speaker 1: at autonomy the communal level are crushed so violently. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why for me, global South in the term includes

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Speaker 1: the states from the SOCOL Global South that are crushing

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Speaker 1: the activists from the SOCO Global South. And so I

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Speaker 1: just felt that I just needed this other layer, this

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Speaker 1: other term that explains that dynamic as well. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things you you just

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Speaker 1: were talking about was kind of the way in which

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Speaker 1: a lot of leftists in the United States and chunks

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Speaker 1: of the West, we'll kind of disregard liberatory struggles overseas

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Speaker 1: that don't neatly fit into a very simple ideological category.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of wondering, is you know a kid who

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Speaker 1: grew up in Lebanon and kind of I'm going to

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Speaker 1: assume mostly focused on the regional kind of politics. When

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Speaker 1: did you start to realize that that was something that

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Speaker 1: was going on internationally? Like when did you when did

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Speaker 1: you realize kind of like, you know, I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks were taken surprise by the reaction of

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Speaker 1: a lot of the international left, like the Arab Spring,

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Speaker 1: And I'm kind of wondering was that when it it

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Speaker 1: kind of hit home for you? Where did you start

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Speaker 1: to see stirrings of those problems at an earlier day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: two thousand eleven is when it kind of became very

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Speaker 1: concrete in some sense. But I grew up having to

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Speaker 1: visit Switzerland actually because my dad is a Swiss national,

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Speaker 1: and I would do so on the Lebanese passport obviously,

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Speaker 1: so I would always need to apply for visas beforehand

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Speaker 1: and so on, you know, like two or three times

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Speaker 1: a year sometimes, and that sort of it. In the

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Speaker 1: in the retrospect, it was those early experiences just meeting

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Speaker 1: the border, just experiencing a border all the time. That's

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Speaker 1: sort of I think anyways, one of those things that

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking I can get respect, like planted the

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Speaker 1: seeds of what was to come, if that makes sense,

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Speaker 1: because I was always peripheral. Whenever I would go to Switzerland,

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Speaker 1: I was never allowed to stay there longer longer than

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Speaker 1: let's say, three weeks if they gave me three weeks,

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Speaker 1: or three months if they gave me three months. And

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Speaker 1: it sort of felt weird coming to Europe all the time,

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Speaker 1: because I'm actually born in France, but I don't have

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Speaker 1: the citizenship, and so it was there was the sense

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Speaker 1: that I felt it weird having to ask permission from

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Speaker 1: someone to go to the place where I literally started

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Speaker 1: my existence. And so from on a on a very basic,

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Speaker 1: basic level that's never quite always like squared with me,

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Speaker 1: and that like led to a number of things that

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Speaker 1: from Lebanon I was seeing the rest of the world

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Speaker 1: in that sense, and it took me sometime. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think after their spring, especially when I started seeing

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Speaker 1: that Lebanon is perificult or I didn't. I didn't really

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Speaker 1: have a term for that before. And the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: real things were happening in in the West. Obviously that's

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Speaker 1: all problematic, and I don't mean that literally because the

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Speaker 1: real things are happening every all the time. But in

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Speaker 1: the sense of what gets to matter, whose lives get

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Speaker 1: to matter more, and so on and so forth. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I think about a lot when

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Speaker 1: I read your work, UM, and when I consume what

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Speaker 1: with Mangal Media puts out Mangal media is UM. I

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Speaker 1: guess you called the journalistic collective UM made up of

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Speaker 1: of people A lot. I think a lot of them

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Speaker 1: were or are have worked as like fixers in uh

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Speaker 1: in in you know, the periphery in parts of the

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Speaker 1: Middle East, UM. And they're What I find so vital

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Speaker 1: about their voices is that it was as as an

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Speaker 1: American journalist who has worked over there, it was always

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Speaker 1: those folks who had the best stories. It's just that

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Speaker 1: those stories got published with the New York Times or

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Speaker 1: with the New Yorker, the Washington Post under somebody else's byline. Right, UM.

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Speaker 1: That's the way journalism actually works. And you have you

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Speaker 1: do have some some reporters like um, I'm spacing on

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Speaker 1: his name. But the fellow who wrote no good Men

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Speaker 1: among the Living, who uh yes, yes, who has done it?

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Speaker 1: I mean I think just I'm sure has local sources

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, but also speaks the language, and it is

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Speaker 1: just an accept but for the most part, especially when

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Speaker 1: you see somebody with my complexion reporting from over there,

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Speaker 1: if they're getting good ship, it's because of it's because

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Speaker 1: of a local UM. And what I like about Mangal

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Speaker 1: is that it it breaks down kind of that barrier

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Speaker 1: between that kind of that kind of white person filter,

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Speaker 1: but when the actual people living on the ground and

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Speaker 1: understanding the situation the person who's trying to package it UM.

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Speaker 1: Which is not to say that I think there's no

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Speaker 1: value in having a local package. And I think anytime

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Speaker 1: you're trying to translate a story across there is some

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Speaker 1: reason for that. But I also think it leads to

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know it leads to problematic kind of

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Speaker 1: Americans said. There's a lot of problems that it leads to.

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Speaker 1: It that we don't have enough time to discuss all

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Speaker 1: of it. But what I'd like to talk about with

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Speaker 1: you is is kind of how is consumers of of

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Speaker 1: media in the United States and in in in the West. Um,

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Speaker 1: which most people listening to this are everyone on this call,

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Speaker 1: but you was born in the US or a place

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Speaker 1: that is the same as the US but with a

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Speaker 1: better hat. Um, I'm talking about Canada. UM. So how

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Speaker 1: do how do how do you recommend we if we

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Speaker 1: if we're if we aspire to be internationalists and to

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Speaker 1: to avoid falling into that trap of of flattening the

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Speaker 1: struggles of other people to fit inside of a simple

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Speaker 1: ideological rubric, how do you recommend people try and cut

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Speaker 1: out or or minimize the extent possible, um, the bias

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Speaker 1: of of whatever region they live in when reading news

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Speaker 1: for another part of the world, Like, how do you

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Speaker 1: do that? Well? Imperfectly right, Like it's never gonna be,

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Speaker 1: never gonna be you know, there's always gonna be flaws,

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Speaker 1: there's always gonna be some learning curve to all of

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Speaker 1: that as well. One thing that's worked for me, um,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I did grow up in Lebanon, and

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Speaker 1: so there is that dimension. But I was I had

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Speaker 1: a pretty sheltered child childhood. You know, media was mostly

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Speaker 1: on the Internet, and so I could kind of go

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Speaker 1: wherever I want, and I was pretty is up until

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Speaker 1: the certain point. I was pretty um, let's say, sheltered

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Speaker 1: from what was happening even around in Lebanon, around Lebanon

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Speaker 1: up until let's say that before just before the air sprain.

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Speaker 1: So I do know what it's like to kind of

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Speaker 1: have biases against you know, other places and have certain Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just it's just human flaws at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: The main difference I think is just what gets centered

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Speaker 1: and what gets peripheral. I mean, just to use that

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Speaker 1: same term again. One thing that I've been doing to

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Speaker 1: kind of help myself, and so I'll just speak from

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Speaker 1: personal experience, is go to some websites like Loves and

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Speaker 1: I've been I've been I read what Loves and regularly

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Speaker 1: mangel media as well. And there are a number of

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Speaker 1: other websites that are trying as much as they can

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Speaker 1: to actually write for one another. Like they're actually trying

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Speaker 1: to write with the assumption that most people who are

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Speaker 1: going to read are not from the West. And that's

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Speaker 1: not easy to do for language barriers. For example, if

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Speaker 1: they're if they're mostly writing in English because the dias

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Speaker 1: progress of the world, if there is some sense and

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Speaker 1: kind of connecting to one another, we're probably going to

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Speaker 1: do it in English. I'm just realistically speaking, and so

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Speaker 1: maybe Spanish, but like you know, probably English. And that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's something that we have to sort of contend with.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy because it could be that I can

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Speaker 1: spend all of my time having conversations with let's say,

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Speaker 1: other people in the diasporas of other groups, let's say,

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Speaker 1: and because I'm doing it entirely in English, then I'm

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Speaker 1: actually not conversing with people back home, and so that

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Speaker 1: hates another problem, and it's there's no easy solution. Basically,

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Speaker 1: there's no I don't really have a A A how

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Speaker 1: do you say this? Like A yeah, like a solution

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Speaker 1: that can fit he can fit any scenarios. So I

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Speaker 1: don't really have a good answer to that. Actually, I

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Speaker 1: just think that heating diverse sources is the best way

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Speaker 1: to do things, but with a critical eye as well,

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Speaker 1: although I feel like that's kind of a boring answer.

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Speaker 1: And for me, the thing that has been quite refreshing

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Speaker 1: is seeing projects like Love Side, which is why I've

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Speaker 1: published like a an interview with like they. We did

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Speaker 1: an interview conversation thing where we were exploring parallels and

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Speaker 1: contrast between Hong Kong and Lebanon, for example, and that

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Speaker 1: for me was a piece where I was entirely thinking

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Speaker 1: about the people I was talking to, like people from

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong, and that's it. We had a diaspora experience

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Speaker 1: in common, but I wasn't thinking and we were speaking

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Speaker 1: in English, but I wasn't thinking about how is this

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Speaker 1: going to be received in New York or Paris or

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Speaker 1: London or whatever. And I feel like these more of

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Speaker 1: these probably will help because it centers different voices rather

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Speaker 1: than the ones that were used to But even though

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Speaker 1: its center, I'm sort of saying it with like an asterisk,

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Speaker 1: because my entire point is that I'm actually uncomfortable with

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Speaker 1: certain situations where I risk being the center of his

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Speaker 1: story when there are so many things happening to my

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Speaker 1: periphery as well, and so it can happen, it can

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Speaker 1: happen on different layers. If it's what I'm trying to say. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's sort of the problem of being as

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Speaker 1: you are, kind of a child of two worlds, where

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Speaker 1: you you have the benefit of it makes it easier

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Speaker 1: to explain both places to the other. Um, but you also, uh,

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Speaker 1: you have a wall kind of or at least a

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Speaker 1: couple of them up up inside you, um, which yeah,

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Speaker 1: um yeah, And it is like there's no there's no

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Speaker 1: kind of gaining perfect perspective on any place, including the

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Speaker 1: place where you live. But I do think it's important

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Speaker 1: to talk about kind of at least de centering to

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Speaker 1: the extent that's possible, like Western voices when we're trying

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Speaker 1: to understand places that are not Western. M So I

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Speaker 1: think think with fair amount, just be a chat over

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Speaker 1: the year, particularly during some of the nonsense last year.

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Speaker 1: Is um internationalism, which is is a real concern I

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Speaker 1: think of everybody on this show, and something that used

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Speaker 1: to be in a lot stronger state than it is

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Speaker 1: in the left. Um. And I what do you see

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Speaker 1: as the primary barriers to functional internationalism at the moment um? Well,

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Speaker 1: West centrism is I think a primary one. Racism Islamophobia

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Speaker 1: are pretty common as well. Um, Islamophobia is a pretty

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Speaker 1: massive one, uh, to the point that even non Muslims

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Speaker 1: like me can be swiped kind of kind of just

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Speaker 1: taken with it as well. And I just I just

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Speaker 1: think that when I say West centerism, I don't even

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Speaker 1: only mean people who are fromwhat from the West and

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Speaker 1: are thinking about the West as the center of the world,

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Speaker 1: but I also mean, like left is from other parts

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Speaker 1: of the world. I think that the only enemy is

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Speaker 1: is the West, or the only enemy is America for example.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, Christopher and I had chats about

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Speaker 1: this as well on my own podcast actually about the

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Speaker 1: channel men, the the legacy of channel men as well. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not just misunderstood or um yeah, misunderstood among let's say,

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Speaker 1: White Americans, but it could also be misunderstood among Chinese

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Speaker 1: American for example. There are these multiple like these multiple

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Speaker 1: layers in which something can be misunderstood on different layers

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Speaker 1: as well, if that makes sense. And I for me,

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Speaker 1: the problem with the West centrism is that it takes

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Speaker 1: up so much oxygen in the room. It's just take stup.

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Speaker 1: So we people like me and others, And like I've

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Speaker 1: I've met folks from like the Balkans and in the

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Speaker 1: Middle East and Southeast Asia, and like almost any group

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Speaker 1: I can think of, I've met them, they have complained

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Speaker 1: about pretty much the same thing that they ended up

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Speaker 1: spending so much time on the Internet debunking disinformation or

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Speaker 1: debunking tankies or de punking campus and or debunking what

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Speaker 1: have you, or just misinformation sometimes and this this ends

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Speaker 1: up being pretty exhausting, Like this ends up being like

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Speaker 1: ship is happening on the ground, like things are actually

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Speaker 1: happening on the ground, and activists from let's say by route. Oh,

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Speaker 1: they didn't happen as much in Bayhood, but you know

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Speaker 1: from Iraq or Syria, Syria especially obviously, but Hong Kong

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Speaker 1: as well. You know, they have to deal with concrete

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Speaker 1: problems on the ground, but at the same time they

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Speaker 1: have to worry about how this is being perceived on

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Speaker 1: the internet, because usually it's assumed that how it's perceived

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Speaker 1: on the internet, So, especially in the Anglophone online media,

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Speaker 1: escape can have real life consequences on the ground. And

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Speaker 1: this is something that is very difficult to tackle because

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Speaker 1: it's not enough to just fight them by having more

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Speaker 1: allow sense and more mongel media. For one, we just

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Speaker 1: don't have the resources to challenge a Fox News or

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Speaker 1: CNN or what have you. Um And for two, it's

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Speaker 1: just exhausting the main the main I think the main

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Speaker 1: thing that has stopped most activists I can think of,

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Speaker 1: or at least they've taken a break or what have

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Speaker 1: what have you. It's just burned out more than anything.

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Speaker 1: It's not even well in many cases. Obviously it's also

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Speaker 1: therex threats from the state and stuff like that, but

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Speaker 1: more often than not, it's just being exhausted from having

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Speaker 1: to spend so much time dealing with what's happening on

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Speaker 1: the ground at the same time making sure that what's

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Speaker 1: happening on the ground isn't being misinterpreted or you know,

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Speaker 1: having to deal with this information or what have you.

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Speaker 1: And so basically the responsibility ends up being on people

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Speaker 1: consuming these kinds of media. And I don't want to

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Speaker 1: make it to individualistic either. That are structural problems to

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Speaker 1: these things. As I said, CNN, the resources all of that.

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Speaker 1: But given the I can't Lena is not gonna listen

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Speaker 1: to me. The other the next best thing is trying

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Speaker 1: to just speak to just people who are willing to listen. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: and you talked a bit about I mean the situation

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Speaker 1: in Lebanon right now. If people aren't aware, Um, there

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Speaker 1: was a massive explosion UM a year or so ago,

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Speaker 1: and everything's kind of been in free fall sense, and

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Speaker 1: and what's happening, what's happening in Beiruts and across like that.

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Speaker 1: There have been massive wildfires that have destroyed a huge

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Speaker 1: chunk of the of the country's forests. UM and a

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Speaker 1: lart like just kind of society, uh, seems to be

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Speaker 1: breaking down in a lot of areas. The stores don't

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Speaker 1: have food, people don't like the inflation has has reached

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Speaker 1: kind of a nightmarish level. What do you like we're

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Speaker 1: we're talking about? You know, these are all kind of

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Speaker 1: the same problems that we're talking about everywhere. It's just

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Speaker 1: it it's much more severe at the moment there, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's in a much more advanced state for variety

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Speaker 1: of reasons. Do you do you have any hope for mitigation?

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Speaker 1: How could the situation improve? I guess, like I I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at at Lebanon and I'm thinking about like what,

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Speaker 1: not even like what I could do, because I don't

403
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Speaker 1: think there's anything I can do, but like how how

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Speaker 1: things could possibly get better? And yeah, I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: you if that's any clearer to you, Um, maybe only

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Speaker 1: slightly more, but yeah, it's it's. Yeah, it's really bad,

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Speaker 1: I mean crumbling, you know, welcome to the combos that

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Speaker 1: actually fits there? There there, What's what's been happening for

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Speaker 1: something at least a couple of years, if not a

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Speaker 1: bit more than that. Pretty well, Um, there is a

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Speaker 1: mass exodus happening on a slow depending on the seasons. Basically,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's faster and summer and then whatever. But basically

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Speaker 1: most of my friends, for example, like them, are now

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Speaker 1: abroad um and there is definitely a sense of um collapse.

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Speaker 1: That's you know, in here is the term that we

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Speaker 1: would use. It just feels like a state of collapse essentially.

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Speaker 1: And what's kind of interesting, I think is that this

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Speaker 1: was being predicted for some time now. It's been a

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Speaker 1: couple of years I would say, I mean towards the

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Speaker 1: end of two thousand nineteen with the revolution, not that

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Speaker 1: long after you already had a lot of people within

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Speaker 1: Lebanon like kind of you might call it the initial

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Speaker 1: phases of counter revolution in some sense, or that's probably

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Speaker 1: a bit simplistic, but basically saying that if we continue

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Speaker 1: taking to these heats, the country is going to collapse.

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Speaker 1: And that's obviously not the reason the country is going

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Speaker 1: to collapse. There is that is collapsing. The reason is

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Speaker 1: a combination of COVID, last year's pot explosion, corruption at

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Speaker 1: the states, septainosum war loads, basically control controlling most of

430
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 1: the country and so on and so forth. As to

431
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: what can happen next, I mean, it does seem that

432
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 1: at least for the foreseable future, it's going to continue

433
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 1: more or less their way. It's been continuing. It feels

434
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 1: like basically a decline that's sometimes steeper and sometimes less steep. Uh.

435
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,479
Speaker 1: The stories on a daily basis are like, you know,

436
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: if friend took her like five hours to to fill

437
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: up gas and it's not even she can't, you know,

438
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: fill the entire tank, and electricity went out for like

439
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: three days, and so people you know, their fridge was useless,

440
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. Um, And it is definitely

441
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: it's it's I don't have the percentage with me, and

442
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: those are just data and data without stories or can

443
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: be misleading as well. But something like I'm going to

444
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: say of the population is below the poverty line now

445
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: compared to before, stuff like that, it's it's pretty dire,

446
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's pretty It happened at such a

447
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: speed that I'm gonna say that I haven't been back

448
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: since January for various reasons COVID and security threats and

449
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: other stuff. And um, I can't quite picture it in

450
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: my mind. It's not that easy. But friends obviously speaking

451
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: to them, and photos and videos that I see, it's

452
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: just fair to say that everything that I can think

453
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: of on most things that I can think of from

454
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: before two nineteen. Basically most of my life is essentially gone,

455
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: and there is there is no way of getting over

456
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: that quickly, if that makes and you probably never get

457
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: over it anyway, but you might get to at some

458
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 1: point where you you kind of regain enough energy to

459
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: actually maybe act on it, if that makes sense. But

460
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: there is a period in which now people are basically

461
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: still grieving, and they're still heaving from last year's explosion

462
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: as well because the Silion investigation and the usual stuff,

463
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: and so yeah, no, it's it's it's a game, and

464
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: it's gonna be game for some time. I think, uh

465
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: that that being said, I don't think that people back home,

466
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, aren't doing anything. They are if a number

467
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: of initiatives, you're a number of basically mutuate societies or

468
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: no one really calls them that, but they just pop

469
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: up on their own, and these things function to certain extent.

470
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: Often it's they don't last too long, you usually due

471
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: to resources or burnout or what have you. And so

472
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: it's it's um, Lebanon is one of those things. I

473
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: this um. I think it was after the explosion last

474
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: year as well. I was on another podcast, the Auds

475
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: of Travel is called I think it was on that

476
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: one where he basically said that he thinks that for him,

477
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: the apocalypse looks like what happened in Lebanon, and I

478
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 1: think I know what he meant. But the problem with

479
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: that analysis is that often we think that the apocalyps

480
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: just happens and then that's it. But there's most of

481
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: the story is actually the day after that makes sense.

482
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: And in in Lebanon, as it happens, the apocalypse looked apocalyptic,

483
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: you know, that one day, that explosion that took just

484
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: a few seconds and I destroyed so much of the

485
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: capital and beyond. But the real story is what's been

486
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: happening since then, And there, I think is where Lebanon

487
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: does have lessons, well for Lebanon first and foremost, but

488
00:25:47,760 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: also for the rest of the world. You know, I

489
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: think we're all kind of in this position of watching

490
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: the place, seeing the place, most of us at least

491
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 1: seeing the places where we live in stages, you know,

492
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: and and mostly at the moment in earlier stages of

493
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: what what Lebanon is going through not as severe, but

494
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: but also kind of inevitably, inevitably approaching that right UM,

495
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: Like I think most you know, I I have a

496
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: couple of friends who are school teachers who are like

497
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: just kind of going to work with the absolute certainty

498
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: that a bunch of people are going to get infected

499
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: in the very near future. I have people who work

500
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: at hospitals that are no longer able to handle uh,

501
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: basic medical procedures for a lot of people that are

502
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: triaging care. You know that that just came out that

503
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: Idaho was going to have to start triagng like medical

504
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: care based on who they think might be able to

505
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: survive UM years. Yeah. Yeah, We're all living through stages

506
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 1: of that, and the the the overwhelming question is like,

507
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: how do we pull out of the tail spin? Um?

508
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: And this is you know, not a question I expect

509
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: us to have. I've put up forward, and I think

510
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: sometimes online people are like, oh, you know, you it's

511
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: naive to think that, like, you know, a general strike

512
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: or mutual aid could avert the tailsman. I I don't

513
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: think those are complete solutions to to pulling out of

514
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: the tailsman. I know they're aspects of what the solution

515
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: will be. Nobody knows what the solution is because we're

516
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: still in a tailspin. UM. In your mind, what do

517
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: you what do you think might be part of that answer?

518
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: With the knowledge that and and please people on Reddit,

519
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: nobody's nobody's saying this is the complete solution to the problem.

520
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: But like I'm hoping by gathering people together who think

521
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: about stuff, we can arrive at aspects of it. Yeah,

522
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: I mean for me, it's it's it's a combo. So

523
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: in my own person experience is basically what I could

524
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 1: well against speak of to the most, it's a combo

525
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: of reaching out to people in similar situations. So in

526
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: my case dis pogres especially, but like more broadly, Yeah,

527
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: for me, I think it has to be a combination

528
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: of pragmaticism. So I do believe in lesser evilism, for example,

529
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: when that's the only option. Sometimes I feel like I

530
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: need to choose and that's the only option I have,

531
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: And so I do that at the same time doing

532
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: so without the you know, so Biden versus time to

533
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: use that simple example, but at the same time knowing

534
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: that that's not gonna change much, if anything, It just

535
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: it might slow slow the collapse down. And that's actually

536
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: the metaphor that I prefer to think about, like slowing

537
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: things down gives me time to do other things, if

538
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 1: that makes sense. It gives me time to do more

539
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: things rather than always having to defend myself constantly the

540
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: other like. More broadly, I think it is it's a

541
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: combination of trying to build dual power, trying to build

542
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: mutual aid as much as possible. This is not going

543
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: to solve things. But I just don't think there is

544
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: anything that's going to solve everything. I just I don't

545
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: see how that's going to be possible. And the lack

546
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: of that is what I think many people it's scared.

547
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it's scary, right, It's just scares the number

548
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: of people scares most people. I mean it scares me

549
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: as well. And I do understand that the instinct to

550
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: sort of go towards well, you know, we have the EU,

551
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: we have the US, we have those grant structures, and

552
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: we're going to just try and reform them and change

553
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: them and so on and so forth. I understand that,

554
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: And I don't judge people who who believe that and

555
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: who genuinely think that they can change things. You know,

556
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: I wish them good luck, basically, I don't. If they succeed,

557
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: good for everyone, Right, it's just that I think due

558
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: to structural factors, primarily due to related to power and

559
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: help power, power corrupts in almost every single case I

560
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: can think of, and pretty much all of them. I

561
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: just don't think these are solutions either. And I view

562
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: my role as as trying and and be critical as

563
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: much as I can, trying to be honest as much

564
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: as I can, saying when I just don't know something,

565
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: that I just don't know something, and having a healthier

566
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: a balance on how to deal with this. But that

567
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: being said, I I don't have that the answer. I

568
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: don't have them, you know. I think it is like

569
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: ninety episodes on my podcast now and there are a

570
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: number of episodes in which this also, this topic comes

571
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: up and some people have some answers, some people don't

572
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: have an answer and just becomes an open question. But

573
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: I would hope that at least the fact that there

574
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: are no clear answers doesn't discourage people from at least

575
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: trying to find these answers, because I do think most

576
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: of the time the solution is going to be found

577
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: while trying, while attempting to solve something else that makes sense.

578
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: It's it's the act in itself for the acts in

579
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: themselves are going to produce some of these solutions. Because

580
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: most of these solutions don't exist yet, we have to

581
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: literally create them, come scratch often. Yeah, yeah, I really

582
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to accept that in

583
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: a lot of cases, you know, we don't know how

584
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: to fix the problem. I think the people who claim

585
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: that it's whatever whatever book they read, uh, you know,

586
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: written a hundred years ago, as the perfect solution, I

587
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: tend to think that's pretty arrogant. But I do think

588
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: that what's not arrogant is like getting your hands dirty

589
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: and trying to fix problems and hoping and understanding that

590
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: kind of the solutions to broader problems will come UM

591
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: in part through dealing with and trying to improve the

592
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: situation on a day to day basis. You know, we

593
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: just did an episode about UM self managed abortion, where

594
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: the source was definitely more on the liberal end of

595
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: things than the left end of things, and and somebody

596
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: who UM politically I would probably have a lot of

597
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: disagreements with, but she spent the last twenty five years

598
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: trying to train communities of people to provide to take

599
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: control of of of reproductive health and like enable other

600
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: members of their communities to take direct control of that.

601
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: And that is something I very much, um believe in,

602
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: and I think that's like, that's that's part of the solution, right.

603
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: Part of the solution to why the fucking coronavirus has

604
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: gotten so god damn out of hand is everything to

605
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: do with our broken health care system. And it's it's

606
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: it's not just the fact that healthcare is expensive, it's

607
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: the fact that people are kind of alienated, um from

608
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: an understanding of their bodies. They're not properly educated about

609
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: the way things work, and they don't feel like they

610
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: have that kind of the consistent lack of a feeling

611
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: of like medical autonomy leads people eventually to embrace nonsense

612
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: and and so there you have and kind of this

613
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: very focused solution to to one really specific problem, a

614
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: part of I think a larger solution to the problems

615
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: that that um that confront us. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

616
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: that makes sense. And you know, I mean, speaking of COVID,

617
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: I think that, I mean, we know that part of

618
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: the reasons why it's lasting so long as well, other

619
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: than local dynamics for demination, is that get your nations

620
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: are basically holding the vaccines at this point, were you

621
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: talking about like the third booster shot in in Switzerland

622
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: for example, and most of the words it doesn't have

623
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: the first one. Uh, you know, those are political decisions.

624
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: Those are political decisions being made on behalf of the

625
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: rest of the world. As we see what climate change

626
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: is one, it's the same story. Yeah, I don't know

627
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: what to do about that at this stage, Like it

628
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: seems like kind of at every level we've given up

629
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: on handling this the right way, you know, the the

630
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: the clear best solution would have been to treat the

631
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: rollout of the vaccine, you know, the same way we

632
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: treated World War Two as like a logistical hurdle on

633
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: on on par with getting a couple of million of

634
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: men to Western European we do that to get the

635
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: vaccine to everybody. So we could have hopefully fucking stopped

636
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: the variants from hitting, but we didn't do that, and um,

637
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: we're not going to do that, And so I guess

638
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: we're all left with mitigation once again, which is too

639
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: often the story with with climate change too. And I

640
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: don't know we've we've already kind of trod on that

641
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: territory garrison Christophers or anything you wanted to get into

642
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: before we close out. Well, I think I think one

643
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: thing specifically with COVID that I think is really interesting

644
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: is if you look at the places where COVID like

645
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: you know, it was ad but like it didn't you know,

646
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: kill six people. Um, you know, particularly looking at China

647
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: and Hong Kong with this, so you know, China both

648
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: both the government, China government, Hong Kong's initial state response

649
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: is really bad. And what happened was, you know, in China,

650
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: it's sort of you know, you have a bunch of

651
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: people who don't trust the government, and so what they

652
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: do is you can you get hundreds of thousands of

653
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: people sort of just mobilizing and forming these sort of

654
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: volunteer things to to you know, to enforce lockdowns, to

655
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: enforce restrictions, to give people food, and you know, it's

656
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: part of some of its state back, so it's not

657
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: and some of it's you know, you get this sort

658
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: of hazy lying between the sort of mass mobilization between

659
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: just people doing stuff on sort of state a line

660
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: directors and then in Hong Kong, you know, and people

661
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: like people like torch border crossings, people like you know,

662
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: there's this huge thing to get everyone masks is this

663
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: huge Like then this stuff is like entire against again

664
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: sort of against against the sort of government. But what

665
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: I think is interesting about both of them is that

666
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it turned out to be possible

667
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: to make dependent to make the pandemic less bad if

668
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: you mobilized. And it wasn't really the state that did this.

669
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,959
Speaker 1: It was you know, people who didn't really trust the state,

670
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: and we're like, okay, so we're just we're gonna take

671
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: this into our own hands. And I think, you know,

672
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: and somebody's like that that seems like the thing that

673
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: can be done is you have to get people moving first,

674
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: like before everything completely collapses. I guess I guess something

675
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: I was. I also think it was interesting about that

676
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: was that the way that and I think this is

677
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: going going back to the internationalism part we're talking about,

678
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 1: is that there's this way in which that is particularly

679
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: in China, to the story of of this this hundreds

680
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: of thousands of people doing these mass mobilizations just never

681
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: reached the West at all, Like you know, everyone everyone

682
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: looked at China and went, oh, this is how the

683
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: state is reacting, And it's like, yeah, the state did

684
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: a lot of extremely weird things. Some of them were good,

685
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: some of them were bad, but the sort of mass

686
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: popular mobilization beneath it gets erased. And I think I'm wondering,

687
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: if you think about this, Joey, looking at even even

688
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: how the left worked in the nineties, we're looking looking

689
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: at the Zapatistas and looking at the people's coobal Assembly

690
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: stuff that they set up on how about how that

691
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: stuff was about social movements. It wasn't about sort of

692
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't about states, it wasn't about necessarily political parties.

693
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: It was you know, you'd bring about social movements together.

694
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm wondering what you think about the extent

695
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: to which part of what went really wrong in the

696
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: left in the last ten years is that they kind

697
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 1: of they abandoned that and it became sort of everything

698
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: became like internationalism became almost completely state and party based. Um, yeah, yeah,

699
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: I mean for me, the Arab swing is is where

700
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: I mean, this is I mean, my sound a bit

701
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: of an exaggeration. That's why the left sort of buried

702
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: it sound like for me, it's it's it's like I

703
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 1: still hardly called myself on the left just because it's simpler.

704
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: But I have a lot of problems with a lot

705
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: of people who are on the left when it comes

706
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: to so many different things. Um, I don't. I don't

707
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: quite know where it started. Um some people trace it

708
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: back to like the you know, I don't know, like

709
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: the Hungarian Revolution in fifty six, you know, stuff like that.

710
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: So I don't, I don't quite know where you start

711
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: or where you ended. But it does seem that at

712
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: some point the I don't know, it's a combination of

713
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: the huntings from the Balkan Wars and then the genocides

714
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: there and and the Denis m that was allowed to

715
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: essentially be just grow and be normalized to the point

716
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: that some guy like at the last few or two

717
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: years ago he got the Nobel Prize for literature even

718
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: though he's a boss in genocide denier and just these

719
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: these things are becoming have become in the past um

720
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: decade or two, I suppose, more normalized, and now we're

721
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: sort of back to the mitigation section of things. For me,

722
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: they're springing it to use. The method of the candy

723
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: in the coal mine was sort of that. But I'm

724
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: sure you can go further back, and some people will

725
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: say it's actually started with Bosnia Rwanda or something, but

726
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that. I'm I can say like full

727
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: certain words started, if that makes sense. But yeah, for me,

728
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 1: it's obviously it's there Spring. That's that's been the center

729
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: of my world for a long time now, and it's

730
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: it's where I felt that the lack of support that

731
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: was needed. And it's ongoing. I'm talking about it in

732
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: the past stance, but it's ongoing. Like the guy is

733
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 1: being bombed right now. Yeah, they just bombed it live too, right, Yeah,

734
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: so you know it's ongoing. The humiliation is ongoing. The

735
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: regime is putting out the green buses, which every Serian

736
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: knows what they're about, the humiliation ones where you escorte

737
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: people out of their homes basically, and they they they know,

738
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: like the regimes I think at this point know what

739
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: they can do and what they can't do. They're they're

740
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: pretty confident in what they can and can't do. So yeah, sorry,

741
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: I'm ending another pretty positive note on that. Unfortunately, I

742
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: don't know, man. I guess As a last question, I'm

743
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: kind of curious we we've you've analyzed the problem of

744
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: the left kind of aligning themselves with parties and with nations, um,

745
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: and how that leads to a tremendous amount of blind

746
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: spot spots, a flattening of of conflicts, and a flattening

747
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: of the humanity of people who don't live close to you, um,

748
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: which is you know, all part of the problems that

749
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: we that we are in right now. What do you

750
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: think we ought to be aligning ourselves around, like if

751
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: you're getting you know, if we're if we can if

752
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: we can come to see ourselves as all in the

753
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: periphery and and in the periphery at least and sort

754
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: of as relates to these states, because in a way

755
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: we all are, right, Um, people in the United States

756
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: certainly like benefit more from imperialism and from the might

757
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: of the United States, but we're also peripheral to the

758
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: power of that state, which I think a lot of

759
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: people may have ex experienced for the first time when

760
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: they got tear gas last year, or or as kind

761
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: of the different state effects or attempts to deal with

762
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: the coronavirus have failed disastrously. This really really but what

763
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: do you what should we be aligning ourselves around? Like

764
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: what do you what do you sort of give. I mean,

765
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: even the example that you gave is for me, it's

766
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: a pretty good one because that's also sort of the

767
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: point that like centers and peripheries are everywhere, and they're

768
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: they're also within nation states. So like Lebanon is peripheral

769
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: to America, but many Americans are peripheral to other Americans,

770
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: if that makes sense, and to other Americans in power,

771
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: especially Like for me, one of the primary thinkers behind

772
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: my own thinking is James Baldwin, you know, African Americans

773
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: or like, he is technically a Westerner, but I would

774
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 1: consider a lot of his writing to be peripherally essentially,

775
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: and that's because he has this amazing coats that I'm

776
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: gonna probably butcher. But it's something along the lines of, like,

777
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: the oppressed don't only know the oppressors better than oppressor.

778
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: Is no, they oppressed, but they also know them better

779
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: than they know themselves. That they like the oppressed know

780
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: the oppressor is better than the oppress is no, the

781
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: oppressors essentially, which is I think Phinon said something similar

782
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: as well. And for me, this this is the sort

783
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: of inside this is kind of the thing that blew up,

784
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: that blew my mind and this is this thing that

785
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: I would say, in the past few years have really

786
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 1: shaped everything as to what to sort of like ally

787
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: ourselves with. I mean, the problem is that it's it

788
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: sounds very cheesy to say to have actual principles and

789
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: maintain them, but the problem is that we don't do

790
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: it often. We don't actually maintain this principle often enough.

791
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm not going to speak for everyone, obviously,

792
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: but in my experience it's it's it is difficult to

793
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: maintain them. And often what I see is very seasoned

794
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: activists basically dealing with burnout and kind of retiring from

795
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: public life and from activism and just kind of doing

796
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: their own thing and whatnot. And for me, the question

797
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: is how do I continue doing what I'm doing but

798
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 1: in the long term, And there is a time component

799
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: to this, there is a resource component to this. And

800
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 1: the more we are able to add these different um

801
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 1: frameworks to understand things we like, for me, that perfectly

802
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: is just one framework. You know. Feminism is another one,

803
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: Anarchism is another one. Uh, none of these things explain

804
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: everything all the time, right, But it's it's just different

805
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: lenses from which I can understand the world. And my advice,

806
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: which is not an easy one I still struggled with it,

807
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 1: is to just try and have as many different lenses

808
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: as possible. And that's sort of my advice that it's

809
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: not a you know, it's not a it's not a

810
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: very quotable one. You're not gonna find this on a

811
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: T shirt. I think, Well, Um, Joey, I that's that's

812
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: I think all I had to ask and get into today. Um,

813
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: did you have anything else you wanted to talk about

814
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: before we before we roll out and leave our audience

815
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:55,720
Speaker 1: to I don't know, go uh, grow some cabbage or whatever.

816
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: We'll going cabbage and community is always the best thing

817
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: to do to be honest. Yeah, make food, make food,

818
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: make food to community gardens. That's the best thing anyone

819
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: can do to be honest. Um yeah, I don't know. No,

820
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: I I can talk about solo punk, I can talk

821
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: about a bunch of stuff, but um, yeah, I guess

822
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: my advice to everyone would be going a bunch of veggies. Okay,

823
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: all the time. We'll we'll have a more We've been

824
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: meaning to. I had been meaning to include a lot

825
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: more solar punk stuff in the first five episodes of

826
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: this we got a bit at the end, but it's

827
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: um yeah, um, I wanna I want to do a

828
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: more detailed, uh meaningful exploration, so we'll have you back

829
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: for that. But Joey, I thank you so much for

830
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: coming on um your podcast the Fire this Time, um

831
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 1: times Fire these times. Sorry, And also check out mangal

832
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: Media uh in Lausanne, You've written for both places, um

833
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: and also both great sources for people to check out

834
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: if you want to de westify your reading about other

835
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: parts of the world. UM all right, that's gonna do

836
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: it us here as it could happen here. Um until

837
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: it does uh yeah. Like Joey said, start a fucking garden.