WEBVTT - Need A 4th?! Ep. 12 with Hale Irwin 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.640 Golf. Is that say anything in golf that doesn't change? 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.200 Anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.920 a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:22.040 Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth? Hello, 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.600 welcome back to need a fourth. We always appreciate you 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.720 being here. Before we get to a spectacular guest and 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:31.120 Hill Irwin, who is so wise and so droll and 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:33.200 so much fun, we just wanted to tip our cap 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.120 to Echo Golf Shoes, who have been a sponsor all 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.760 season long and who have helped make this podcast possible. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.239 So thank you so much. Echo, Michael, did you have 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:46.040 something well, I know one of your favorite golfers one 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:50.080 wearing Echo shoes this week. Effortless charm comes to mind, 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:52.839 both for the Echo shoe and this particular golfer. Take 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.600 it away on Oh yeah, Lydia Ko. I mean, I'll 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:58.920 praise to John Rom, but I think Lydia Coo might 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.200 win more tournaments this year though Ram has a head start. 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.640 I mean, she just got married. She looks very happy 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.880 and settled, and it is such a mega talent. And 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.080 I've said this before when I love watching Lydia play 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.440 because it's like she's dancing out there. She's like Ginger Rogers, 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:13.920 you know, with a golf club. She's so light on 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.680 her feet and I actually, yeah, people talk all the 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.160 time about a golfer's footwork, and to me it seems 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.520 a little overblown. But I do notice it with Lydia, 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.760 just the way she moves and and her grace. And 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.399 I don't know, maybe it's the shoes, because she's always 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.759 wearing Echo shoes and my eyes go there. So congrats 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:38.840 to Lydia. Thank you Echo for helping launch her into 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:43.160 another stratosphere and for making this podcast possible. Now let's 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.679 get to Hale Irwin. Hello, this is Alan Schipnuk back 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.280 for another Need of Fourth podcast, which myself, Michael Bamberger, 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.320 and Jeff Ogally take turns surprising each other with guests. 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.440 And we have a great one today. One of the 0:01:57.480 --> 0:01:59.560 few humans on planet Earth who can say they've won 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:04.760 more opens and Jeff Ogilvie uh also a protagonist in 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.960 Michael's wonderful book Men in Green. I know he's been 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:12.120 a long time hero to you, Michael, Um does do 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.200 we know who this person is? Do we have any guesses? 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:20.720 Could be? Could be Jack Nicholas, could Curtis could be Curtis, 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.680 you know, be Curtis. Okay, fine, both Jeff and this 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:29.480 guest have won national championships at one winged foot golf club. 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.280 Does that Does that help? It's not Billy Caspers. Um, 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.720 I'm gonna go with it. I'm gonna go with Hale Irwin. 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.400 Yes it is. It is Hale Irwin, the man himself, 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.880 three time US Open champion, Hal come on down, welcome 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.160 to this at NITA fourth podcast. Mister Hale Irwin. Thank 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:55.640 you for saying yes, yes, uh differentiated from maybe okay, 0:02:55.680 --> 0:03:00.960 I could follow that with you, Ellen, I could follow that, yes, okay, 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.800 that's a relief. So this is a very exclusive club. 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.640 The number of men who have conquered wingfoot in the 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.880 United States Open, that's as macho as it gets. Is 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:15.280 there a special kinship there? Even more than every every 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:17.800 US Open champion I'm sure has a grudging respect for 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:19.040 the other guy. But when you do it on the 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.320 same course as that kind of extra special well, I 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.280 don't know about what Jeff thinks, but for me, I 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:30.120 conquered man. I don't think any of ever conquer a 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:35.240 golf course, much less wingfoot of true test of golf 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:42.160 there's I found that when Bryson won there several years ago, 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:47.320 I didn't recognize some of the shots coming in the 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.480 change the entry to the greens a bit. And I 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.680 played it perhaps a year or so afterwards, and sure 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:57.200 enough the entries to the greens had changed some. So 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.640 I didn't quite recognize the golf course on television at least. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.000 And I don't know about Jeff, but I thought Wingfoot 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.280 prior to those those changes was one of the most 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:12.200 difficult golf courses you could ever play, particularly under open conditions. No, 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:17.440 it's incredible. It's like, um, Harry Cult describes Swinley Forest 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.520 as his least bad course, you know, which is a 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.120 fantastic way to describe his favorite bit of work. But 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.279 I think when you win the US Open at Wingfoot, 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:31.080 you do the least bad you know. Um, it's just 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.000 a fight. Like sometimes I'm sure Hill conspected that you 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:36.920 finished a tournament and you're like, I played really well. 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.440 I didn't really feel like I played that well at Wingfoot. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.359 I just didn't do as bad as everybody else beat you. 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.039 Wingfoot comes but brings it swipping stick out there, and 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:53.320 it it beat you. And like Jeff says, there are 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.160 tournaments you win you think, yeah, I really played well. 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.120 I was on top of my game. But every time 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.200 I played woot, I go back to the locker thing. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.400 Oh my god, if I got work to do, you know, 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:08.600 I feel like a puppy that's been whipped. Now it 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.000 would probably be an appropriate time to remind the listeners 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:15.000 that Hale shot a last round seventy three and one 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:20.480 at seven over part see I beat that. I was five. 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.719 I've I wasn't on, Yeah, Ramon wasn't cold. The massacre 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.760 yours was the massacre at wing Foot Rot seventy fous Yes. Yes, 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.839 does that remain the hardest the golf course you've ever played? Hale? 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:36.000 That that's set up that week barring wind conditions. You know, 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.640 we can throw wind in anywhere on the planet and 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.760 it makes a golf course very difficult. But we had 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.520 virtually no weather to speak of, you know, breezes, but 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.760 no maybe a sprinkle or two, but weather. It was 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.240 not an issue at any time. And you know, we've 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.760 all played open conditions across the way, and you go 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.840 down in Australia and play some of those great courses 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.240 they have down there, and when the winds up. It's 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:04.520 nearly impossible, but they are weather related to But wingfoot 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.880 and seventy four is hards golf course I've ever played, 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.960 bar none. Hell, how much do you subscribe to the 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.760 theory that they went crazy in the setup in relation 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.120 to the seventy three US Open when john Johnny Miller 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:23.320 shot the sixty last round sixty three, Well, yeah, you 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:25.440 don't know what was in their mind, but the knee 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.880 jerk reaction seems to be after Johnny's final round. And 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.320 give Johnny credit for a great round of golf. Plate 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:36.880 We had ideal conditions there to money had rained the 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.520 night before, the greens were receptive. That doesn't mean that 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.000 Johnny played and he was lucky. I mean he played really, 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.039 really well. He stuck his irons close, he made a 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:48.080 lot of puts. Now fast forward to the next year. 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.719 Was the USGA thinking about that? Oh they had to be. 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.560 There's just it would be inhumanly possible not to think 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:01.520 about it. So I'm sure the setup was. It was terrifying, 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.080 It really was. I remember the doom and gloom in 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.360 the locker room after practice Round one was you could 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.400 hardly breathe. You could cut it with a knife, and 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.080 I remember thinking, my goodness, all you have dudes beat 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.360 seventy percent of the fields already checked out, they're gone. 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:20.920 There's just thirty percent of the guys here are going 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.240 to try most of the fields gone. And sure enough, 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.800 that's kind of what happened. Obviously, Hail, the US Open 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.840 suited you, and I think you were in an era 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.560 where there's no question it was the biggest tournament on 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.480 the planet. It feels like maybe in contemporary times, for 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.120 whatever reason, the players are get more excited about the 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.320 Masters and it's become a little more of a spectacle. 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.560 But can you speak to in your era just the 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.400 meaning of the national championship to the players? Well, I 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.400 think certainly here in the United States it was it 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.000 was the Probably I won't speak for everybody, it was 0:07:56.040 --> 0:08:01.400 probably the biggest event. You'll have the subscribe to the Masters, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.280 you certainly have those, and rightly so subscribe to PGA, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.000 and you can make an equal and maybe stronger arguing 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.800 about worldwide would be the Open Championship. It's been going 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:17.600 on longer, it's it encompasses the world, initially more so 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.920 I think than the US Open. Now, Jeff could probably 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.560 speak to that better than night because when living down 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.640 in Australia, he probably when't you talked Open, it could 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.760 have been the Open and not the US Open. For 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:31.680 all I know, it could have been Australian Open. But 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.240 I think each country kind of had its favorites, and 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.959 certainly for me as a kid growing up, it was 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:43.040 the US Open. But I'd be curious what Jeff thinks. Well, yeah, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:47.000 I mean it's similar to that. I mean we we 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:51.720 audolized the Open Championship growing up, being the British one. 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.160 Peter Thompson had won five, Greg won a couple when 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.160 we were a kid. When I was a kid, it 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.839 was that was the sort of considered that I don't know, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.000 the World Championship of golf, I guess for an Australian, 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.360 you know, that was like as big as it got, 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:13.960 although the Masters was always something so sort of special 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:15.800 and unique and you only got back in those days 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:17.480 what you've got about four hours of coverage for the 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.440 whole weekend, and it was sort of so sort of 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:27.880 mystique about the whole thing. But the feeling as Hale 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.040 would get and all US players would get when they 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:31.719 played the US Open, we have that same feeling when 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.800 we play the Australian Open. You know, it's just something 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.079 about your national championship. It doesn't need to be the 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.000 biggest tournament in the world to be special. And I'm 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:40.920 sure the South Africans are the same. In South Africa 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:45.240 and the Canadians. I mean that we've seen some of 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.720 the Canadians how big the Canadian Open is for them. 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.199 So the National Open is the National Open. I don't 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.760 think it matters what everybody else thinks of it, like 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.360 it's really special, and the US Open is sort of 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:03.160 I guess that the unique in that just the way 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.480 it's tested. It's on the best courses in the US, 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.680 which it's usually on some of the best courses in 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:14.600 the world. It's been won by everybody who's almost anybody 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.640 who's ever been sort of historically relevant golfer, they've all 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.960 sort of won the US Open. And I didn't really appreciate, 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.320 I guess the US Open, how big it was and 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.240 how impressive a tournament was until I got to it. 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.600 I mean, the Masters is nice and it's intimate, and 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.600 it's kind of small in a way, and it's got 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.280 its own sort of charm. But the US Open is 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.800 just on a scale that's hard to imagine until you 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.000 get there, just how big it feels, and how important 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.680 it feels, and how tough the course is, and what 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:43.480 it does to the players in the locker room. In 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:45.480 the locker room in the US Open, like Hay'll just 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:51.320 mentioned before, it's quite an interesting place. There's USGA people 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.680 would be best not to go in there. I think 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.840 it's it's just a fantastic tournament. I think yeah for me. 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.480 I mean, the Open Championship was the major that, like 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:06.120 I was as a kid, I thought it was the 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.280 most special. But when I got to the US Open um, 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:13.520 I was hit in the face with how big a 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:17.160 deal and how special it was. Hell, you had you 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.000 had a stretch in the in the seventies where you 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.720 were top five four years in a row at Augusta 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:26.080 and you know that. Did did you feel like you 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.680 could win there? Did? Did? Was it a different style 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.920 of golf? I mean, you're so sononess to the US Open, 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:32.959 but you had your chances. You finished tied for second 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.400 at the Open Championship. I mean, you're knocking on the door. 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.520 That's some of the other ones. But was it just 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.080 a different kind of golfer and it just didn't go 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:44.679 your way. Well, I think, uh you can. I think 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:46.480 Jeff makes a really good point when you talk about 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:50.720 your national championship. For me, it seemed to pique my interests, 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.839 my competitiveness, my spirit, whatever you want to. Augusta was 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.360 a place that I truly loved. I really did did. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.440 I I think give it in the same terms as 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:03.360 the US Open. Non, nor did I think of the 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.080 Open Championship in the same way. The PGA was different. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.720 They're all different. But for me, Augusta was a place 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.360 I really did want to play well, and I did. 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.880 I had some good, good tournaments there. I led it 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.560 a couple of times, but you got to get to 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.120 the finish. The thing about Augusta to me was that 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.000 there were critical holes that you know, where I was 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.559 probably average in length. If you just average plus five yards, 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.800 you had a distinct advantage. And I referred to holes 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:39.080 mostly the par fives, but you can say number of five. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.160 Back then, you could just drive it a little bit farther. 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.320 Going into that green with a mid iron or a 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.439 shorter iron than a four iron or five iron or 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.560 three iron was so much easier. If you get a 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:54.920 little bit farther at eight, get up that hill a bit, 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:56.640 you might have a chance to get it up to 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.280 the front edge of the green eleven. The same in 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.319 thirteen fifteen. Those holes, that just a couple of extra 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.320 yards makes a big difference on how you can approach 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.960 those greens. With one or two less clubs or par fives, 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.920 you might be able to get it on into And 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.480 that's what I lacked. I lacked that that extra o. 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.240 Could I hit it far enough? Yeah, but I didn't 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.760 want to sacrifice the accuracy just to try and get 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.079 it out there farther. Plus, I think my game was 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.839 always predicated on give me the tightest fairways out there 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:30.920 and put big tall trees right next to them. And 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.560 I led defined my target when I got to an 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.160 open championship or a little bit at a gust, because 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.400 the fairways aren't pretty generous, I kind of had a 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.079 hard time picking my target. That was for me psychologically 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.920 and mentally more difficult than it was driving it down 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:51.640 a really tight fairway. Yeah, the sky, little gust, there's 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.920 hard to get your head around when you first get 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.320 that there's nothing that I'm at. The fairways is so wide. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.960 I mean the second shot to the second hall, you've 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.640 got football fields you can hit that ball into, like, 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.439 and it's sort of hard to sort of it makes 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:11.040 you forces you to sort of pick small targets, and 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.080 it's really difficult because the scale is so big. Like 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.640 you said, hey, when you're in traditional US Open setups, 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.120 or it's obvious I'm there and if you're good enough, 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.840 if you hit it there, you'll be good, you know, um, 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.920 And each each presents its own challenge. I think sometimes 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.560 ultra wide fairways at Augusta, at places like that, the 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.080 big scale can be just as awkward in a different way. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.560 And then I found that for the Open Championship too. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.239 You get there and you've got a relatively flat horizon 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.080 other than it might be in the dunes, but you 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.800 don't have big trees, you don't have big hillsides, you 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.320 have just the roles and the mounds. And you go 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.800 to Saint Andrew's, for instance, and you know there's probably 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.280 five eighty bunkers out there, but you can only see 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.680 three of them. And so for me it was here's 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.200 the fairway, but you're always supposed to play left, and 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.360 I couldn't never separate that in my own mind, and 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.680 I think a lot of it was how you approached playing. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:11.840 You know, Jeff may have a different way of approaching 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.960 playing Wingingfoot than I. We were both successful at it, 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.320 but there might be different avenues in which to play. 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.880 But I just couldn't never get my mind or wrapped 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:28.760 around playing away from a target or seeing something that's 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:33.280 relatively flat. Hit at the church spire, see that that 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.800 cloud flying by those were I just I had a 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.280 hard time with that. Can I go back to something 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.200 Jeff just said a minute ago? You know he was 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.400 talking about the locker room at Wingfoot and how you 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.440 wouldn't want the USGA, wouldn't want to be in there. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.200 I'm curious to know about the evolution of the USJ 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.240 as an authority figure in both your lives. And this 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.040 is kind of a theory. I don't know if it's true, 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.320 but like my mind, like when Hale was coming up 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.320 in the game and Hale's told me about going to it, 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:05.840 I think the sixty US Open was maybe your first 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:07.560 US Open that you went to as a fan. Is 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.680 that right, Hall, Yes? And like this is how I 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.200 came up and imagine held the same the USGA and 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.280 Alan I have joked about this over the years. They 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.920 were like the stern father that you need in your life. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.600 And they told you how many clubs and what the 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.760 rules were, and you just kind of respect to them, 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:25.960 and they gave you the golf course and it was hard, 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.120 and yeah, you might complain about it, but it was 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.160 the USGA. And then so Hale, I'd like to hear 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:32.800 you on that, and then Jeff, I'd like to hear 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.800 if it's any different for you, And then i'd love 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.760 to hear you both talk about whether that's evolved, because 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:39.960 like if you think about that US Open at Oakmont 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:45.240 a few years ago, where you know, there was uproar 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:51.280 over the USGA and how they handled Dustin Johnson's you 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.200 know ball thing on that putting green, and now it's 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.800 I don't think there's that blind acceptance of the authority 0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:59.480 figure and I think it's hurt golf. I know it's 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:01.800 a long we did question. I'm sorry for that, but 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.240 I hope that warms you guys up for maybe addressing 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.320 this broad question. Well, Michael, I wouldn't expect a short 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.960 question from you. Sorry, it's got to be long winded, 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.200 but I think you make a very very valid point. 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.480 You know, I went as a youngster. I was. I 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.480 just lived in Boulder, outside of Denver, but I was 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.200 relatively new to that environment and I just went down 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.359 there kind of an interesting I really didn't know much 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.919 about it, although I'll have to admit that it really 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.640 piqued me. The thing. Two things I remember most about 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.480 Denver just kind of how impressionable a young person can be, 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:46.240 was watching Oh yeah, Ed what's his name, it doesn't matter, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:48.680 hit it off the first tea in a practice round 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:50.600 and the ball went out through where I remember mine 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.119 falling out of the here. He just kept going, Porkey, Oliver. 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.560 That's it. Way to Ed, Porkey Oliver hit it out 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.800 there to kept going. And then I saw Ben Hogan 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.040 on the practice he dump a shag bagful of brand 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:07.159 new balls, brand new balls, a shag balls. Wow. But 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.040 I did go on to play in the sixty six 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.840 US Open as an amateur at Olympic Club, and as 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.640 you say, the authoritative figure was there. I was fortunately 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.760 made the cut and I was first out the next day, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.760 and the USGA was there reading me my rights about 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.840 how fast we had to play. We were the number 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:29.560 one out and they were going to be watching us 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.399 on every hole and it you know, it put the 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.960 fear in me. Now, if someone were do that in 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.000 today's game, you'd look at him and say, you know, 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.680 leave me alone, go away, Which I think is sad 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:47.439 in a way because I wish the USJA would go 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:52.040 back and make the rules a little bit more stern, 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:58.080 make them not as encompassing of everybody, because Jeff knows 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.760 this as well. The professor sort of level game where 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.240 we play us the same equipment, it's a different level 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.399 of competition, it's a different level of talent and taking 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.920 the same rules to apply throughout from the very best 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:12.760 to play the game at the professional level to the 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.320 club level, it's very difficult. So why not have two 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.920 separate rules, two separate rule book? And I just think 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.080 that the players that play the game professionally, I don't 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:29.080 have their own rules. Australia with the USGA was this 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.480 other body that we heard about because we grew up 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:36.600 under the RNA in Australia and by a sort of 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:41.359 relationship the Australian Golf Union, who certainly had that stern, 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.399 sort of strict headmaster type attitude towards us when we 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.639 were kids. But that was just part of it. And 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.080 like as much as we sort of bumped heads with 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:53.680 the authorities when we were kids, it was part of 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.280 the sport and it was kind of cool. It's kind 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.840 of always cool to have this, you know, strict boss 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.000 at the top. But I don't know. I mean, I 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.320 think the USGA, I mean they did some funky stuff 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:04.600 along the way. I mean, I've read a bunch of 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.240 golf books. I don't think Sam Sneed was too friendly 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:09.119 with the USGA. They used to give him some dodgy 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.600 t times in the US Open, and they sort of 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:13.280 made up the rules as they went along a little 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:18.239 bit from what I understand from history. But I mean 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.080 there's still there's still a bit of respect them, and 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.119 it's different. The world has changed so much. I mean, 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.280 with keyboard warriors on their phones and high speed cameras 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.119 getting Dustin's ball moving, and those things have happened forever 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.439 in golf, you know, It's just that now everybody's watching 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.199 and everyone has an opinion on what the right and 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:37.280 wrong thing to do in the situation. And I'm very 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.280 very happy that Dustin won that tournament because I thought 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.040 he got pretty hardly done by there. And they changed 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:46.359 the rule because of it, which was interesting. Yeah, I mean, 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:51.200 I think they ultimately have basically the respect. I mean, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.840 I don't think professional golfers are the right people to 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.800 ask about the USGA really, because we only had one 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.160 real exposure to him every year, and that's the US Open, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.919 and that's not that's sort of not something that's going 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:04.560 to make you love for people who set it up, 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.720 you know, um, so you shouldn't ask us. But I think, 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.760 all in all, I think the rules thing I think 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.399 is interesting that Hoyle brought up. I think when they 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:16.960 changed the rules, I knew the rule, every rule in 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.280 golf up and down until a few years ago. Now 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:21.920 I don't have a clue like they keep changing them 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.440 and um, all in the effort to speed up play, 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.359 but fundamentally, if people just play faster, it'll get faster. 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.119 It's not because of how high people drop the ball from. 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.160 I used to read the rule, but because I saw 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.960 afraid I was gonna have an infraction of a rule 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.320 that Like you, I knew the rules up one side, 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:40.840 down the other, and I read them on a plane 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.760 or back of the room. I just feared having to 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:46.800 get in a situation where I didn't know the rule, 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.600 and like you, Jeff, I don't know how to drop 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.480 a ball anymore. It feels so odd dropping it from 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:58.040 my knee. And then what is They're not waterheads was anymore? 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.399 They're penalty areas well. You can have that in the 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.720 middle of fairway if you're in a divit, you know. 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.800 I just don't. I just wish we'd go back to 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:11.200 defining the rules what they really are and leave them 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:12.600