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Speaker 1: Golf. Is that say anything in golf that doesn't change?

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Speaker 1: Anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man

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Speaker 1: a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point

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Speaker 1: Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth? Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to need a fourth. We always appreciate you

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Speaker 1: being here. Before we get to a spectacular guest and

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Speaker 1: Hill Irwin, who is so wise and so droll and

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Speaker 1: so much fun, we just wanted to tip our cap

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Speaker 1: to Echo Golf Shoes, who have been a sponsor all

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Speaker 1: season long and who have helped make this podcast possible.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Echo, Michael, did you have

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Speaker 1: something well, I know one of your favorite golfers one

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Speaker 1: wearing Echo shoes this week. Effortless charm comes to mind,

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Speaker 1: both for the Echo shoe and this particular golfer. Take

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Speaker 1: it away on Oh yeah, Lydia Ko. I mean, I'll

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Speaker 1: praise to John Rom, but I think Lydia Coo might

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Speaker 1: win more tournaments this year though Ram has a head start.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she just got married. She looks very happy

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Speaker 1: and settled, and it is such a mega talent. And

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Speaker 1: I've said this before when I love watching Lydia play

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Speaker 1: because it's like she's dancing out there. She's like Ginger Rogers,

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Speaker 1: you know, with a golf club. She's so light on

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Speaker 1: her feet and I actually, yeah, people talk all the

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Speaker 1: time about a golfer's footwork, and to me it seems

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Speaker 1: a little overblown. But I do notice it with Lydia,

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Speaker 1: just the way she moves and and her grace. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's the shoes, because she's always

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Speaker 1: wearing Echo shoes and my eyes go there. So congrats

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Speaker 1: to Lydia. Thank you Echo for helping launch her into

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Speaker 1: another stratosphere and for making this podcast possible. Now let's

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Speaker 1: get to Hale Irwin. Hello, this is Alan Schipnuk back

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Speaker 1: for another Need of Fourth podcast, which myself, Michael Bamberger,

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Speaker 1: and Jeff Ogally take turns surprising each other with guests.

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Speaker 1: And we have a great one today. One of the

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Speaker 1: few humans on planet Earth who can say they've won

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Speaker 1: more opens and Jeff Ogilvie uh also a protagonist in

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Speaker 1: Michael's wonderful book Men in Green. I know he's been

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Speaker 1: a long time hero to you, Michael, Um does do

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Speaker 1: we know who this person is? Do we have any guesses?

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Speaker 1: Could be? Could be Jack Nicholas, could Curtis could be Curtis,

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Speaker 1: you know, be Curtis. Okay, fine, both Jeff and this

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Speaker 1: guest have won national championships at one winged foot golf club.

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Speaker 1: Does that Does that help? It's not Billy Caspers. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with it. I'm gonna go with Hale Irwin.

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Speaker 1: Yes it is. It is Hale Irwin, the man himself,

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Speaker 1: three time US Open champion, Hal come on down, welcome

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Speaker 1: to this at NITA fourth podcast. Mister Hale Irwin. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for saying yes, yes, uh differentiated from maybe okay,

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Speaker 1: I could follow that with you, Ellen, I could follow that, yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's a relief. So this is a very exclusive club.

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Speaker 1: The number of men who have conquered wingfoot in the

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Speaker 1: United States Open, that's as macho as it gets. Is

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Speaker 1: there a special kinship there? Even more than every every

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Speaker 1: US Open champion I'm sure has a grudging respect for

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Speaker 1: the other guy. But when you do it on the

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Speaker 1: same course as that kind of extra special well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know about what Jeff thinks, but for me, I

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Speaker 1: conquered man. I don't think any of ever conquer a

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Speaker 1: golf course, much less wingfoot of true test of golf

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Speaker 1: there's I found that when Bryson won there several years ago,

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Speaker 1: I didn't recognize some of the shots coming in the

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Speaker 1: change the entry to the greens a bit. And I

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Speaker 1: played it perhaps a year or so afterwards, and sure

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Speaker 1: enough the entries to the greens had changed some. So

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Speaker 1: I didn't quite recognize the golf course on television at least.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know about Jeff, but I thought Wingfoot

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Speaker 1: prior to those those changes was one of the most

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Speaker 1: difficult golf courses you could ever play, particularly under open conditions. No,

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Speaker 1: it's incredible. It's like, um, Harry Cult describes Swinley Forest

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Speaker 1: as his least bad course, you know, which is a

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Speaker 1: fantastic way to describe his favorite bit of work. But

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Speaker 1: I think when you win the US Open at Wingfoot,

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Speaker 1: you do the least bad you know. Um, it's just

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Speaker 1: a fight. Like sometimes I'm sure Hill conspected that you

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Speaker 1: finished a tournament and you're like, I played really well.

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Speaker 1: I didn't really feel like I played that well at Wingfoot.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't do as bad as everybody else beat you.

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Speaker 1: Wingfoot comes but brings it swipping stick out there, and

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Speaker 1: it it beat you. And like Jeff says, there are

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Speaker 1: tournaments you win you think, yeah, I really played well.

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Speaker 1: I was on top of my game. But every time

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Speaker 1: I played woot, I go back to the locker thing.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, if I got work to do, you know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like a puppy that's been whipped. Now it

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Speaker 1: would probably be an appropriate time to remind the listeners

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Speaker 1: that Hale shot a last round seventy three and one

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Speaker 1: at seven over part see I beat that. I was five.

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Speaker 1: I've I wasn't on, Yeah, Ramon wasn't cold. The massacre

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Speaker 1: yours was the massacre at wing Foot Rot seventy fous Yes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: does that remain the hardest the golf course you've ever played? Hale?

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Speaker 1: That that's set up that week barring wind conditions. You know,

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Speaker 1: we can throw wind in anywhere on the planet and

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Speaker 1: it makes a golf course very difficult. But we had

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Speaker 1: virtually no weather to speak of, you know, breezes, but

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Speaker 1: no maybe a sprinkle or two, but weather. It was

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Speaker 1: not an issue at any time. And you know, we've

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Speaker 1: all played open conditions across the way, and you go

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Speaker 1: down in Australia and play some of those great courses

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Speaker 1: they have down there, and when the winds up. It's

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Speaker 1: nearly impossible, but they are weather related to But wingfoot

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Speaker 1: and seventy four is hards golf course I've ever played,

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Speaker 1: bar none. Hell, how much do you subscribe to the

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Speaker 1: theory that they went crazy in the setup in relation

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Speaker 1: to the seventy three US Open when john Johnny Miller

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Speaker 1: shot the sixty last round sixty three, Well, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: don't know what was in their mind, but the knee

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Speaker 1: jerk reaction seems to be after Johnny's final round. And

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Speaker 1: give Johnny credit for a great round of golf. Plate

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Speaker 1: We had ideal conditions there to money had rained the

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Speaker 1: night before, the greens were receptive. That doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: Johnny played and he was lucky. I mean he played really,

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Speaker 1: really well. He stuck his irons close, he made a

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Speaker 1: lot of puts. Now fast forward to the next year.

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Speaker 1: Was the USGA thinking about that? Oh they had to be.

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Speaker 1: There's just it would be inhumanly possible not to think

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Speaker 1: about it. So I'm sure the setup was. It was terrifying,

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Speaker 1: It really was. I remember the doom and gloom in

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Speaker 1: the locker room after practice Round one was you could

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Speaker 1: hardly breathe. You could cut it with a knife, and

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking, my goodness, all you have dudes beat

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Speaker 1: seventy percent of the fields already checked out, they're gone.

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Speaker 1: There's just thirty percent of the guys here are going

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Speaker 1: to try most of the fields gone. And sure enough,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what happened. Obviously, Hail, the US Open

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Speaker 1: suited you, and I think you were in an era

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Speaker 1: where there's no question it was the biggest tournament on

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Speaker 1: the planet. It feels like maybe in contemporary times, for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, the players are get more excited about the

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Speaker 1: Masters and it's become a little more of a spectacle.

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Speaker 1: But can you speak to in your era just the

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Speaker 1: meaning of the national championship to the players? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think certainly here in the United States it was it

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Speaker 1: was the Probably I won't speak for everybody, it was

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Speaker 1: probably the biggest event. You'll have the subscribe to the Masters,

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Speaker 1: you certainly have those, and rightly so subscribe to PGA,

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Speaker 1: and you can make an equal and maybe stronger arguing

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Speaker 1: about worldwide would be the Open Championship. It's been going

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Speaker 1: on longer, it's it encompasses the world, initially more so

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Speaker 1: I think than the US Open. Now, Jeff could probably

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Speaker 1: speak to that better than night because when living down

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Speaker 1: in Australia, he probably when't you talked Open, it could

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Speaker 1: have been the Open and not the US Open. For

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Speaker 1: all I know, it could have been Australian Open. But

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Speaker 1: I think each country kind of had its favorites, and

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Speaker 1: certainly for me as a kid growing up, it was

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Speaker 1: the US Open. But I'd be curious what Jeff thinks. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's similar to that. I mean we we

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Speaker 1: audolized the Open Championship growing up, being the British one.

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Speaker 1: Peter Thompson had won five, Greg won a couple when

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Speaker 1: we were a kid. When I was a kid, it

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Speaker 1: was that was the sort of considered that I don't know,

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Speaker 1: the World Championship of golf, I guess for an Australian,

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Speaker 1: you know, that was like as big as it got,

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Speaker 1: although the Masters was always something so sort of special

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Speaker 1: and unique and you only got back in those days

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Speaker 1: what you've got about four hours of coverage for the

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Speaker 1: whole weekend, and it was sort of so sort of

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Speaker 1: mystique about the whole thing. But the feeling as Hale

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Speaker 1: would get and all US players would get when they

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Speaker 1: played the US Open, we have that same feeling when

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Speaker 1: we play the Australian Open. You know, it's just something

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Speaker 1: about your national championship. It doesn't need to be the

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Speaker 1: biggest tournament in the world to be special. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure the South Africans are the same. In South Africa

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Speaker 1: and the Canadians. I mean that we've seen some of

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Speaker 1: the Canadians how big the Canadian Open is for them.

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Speaker 1: So the National Open is the National Open. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it matters what everybody else thinks of it, like

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Speaker 1: it's really special, and the US Open is sort of

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Speaker 1: I guess that the unique in that just the way

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Speaker 1: it's tested. It's on the best courses in the US,

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Speaker 1: which it's usually on some of the best courses in

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Speaker 1: the world. It's been won by everybody who's almost anybody

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Speaker 1: who's ever been sort of historically relevant golfer, they've all

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Speaker 1: sort of won the US Open. And I didn't really appreciate,

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Speaker 1: I guess the US Open, how big it was and

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Speaker 1: how impressive a tournament was until I got to it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the Masters is nice and it's intimate, and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of small in a way, and it's got

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Speaker 1: its own sort of charm. But the US Open is

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Speaker 1: just on a scale that's hard to imagine until you

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Speaker 1: get there, just how big it feels, and how important

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Speaker 1: it feels, and how tough the course is, and what

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Speaker 1: it does to the players in the locker room. In

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Speaker 1: the locker room in the US Open, like Hay'll just

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Speaker 1: mentioned before, it's quite an interesting place. There's USGA people

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Speaker 1: would be best not to go in there. I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's just a fantastic tournament. I think yeah for me.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the Open Championship was the major that, like

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Speaker 1: I was as a kid, I thought it was the

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Speaker 1: most special. But when I got to the US Open um,

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Speaker 1: I was hit in the face with how big a

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Speaker 1: deal and how special it was. Hell, you had you

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Speaker 1: had a stretch in the in the seventies where you

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Speaker 1: were top five four years in a row at Augusta

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Speaker 1: and you know that. Did did you feel like you

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Speaker 1: could win there? Did? Did? Was it a different style

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Speaker 1: of golf? I mean, you're so sononess to the US Open,

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Speaker 1: but you had your chances. You finished tied for second

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Speaker 1: at the Open Championship. I mean, you're knocking on the door.

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Speaker 1: That's some of the other ones. But was it just

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Speaker 1: a different kind of golfer and it just didn't go

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Speaker 1: your way. Well, I think, uh you can. I think

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Speaker 1: Jeff makes a really good point when you talk about

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Speaker 1: your national championship. For me, it seemed to pique my interests,

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Speaker 1: my competitiveness, my spirit, whatever you want to. Augusta was

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Speaker 1: a place that I truly loved. I really did did.

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Speaker 1: I I think give it in the same terms as

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Speaker 1: the US Open. Non, nor did I think of the

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Speaker 1: Open Championship in the same way. The PGA was different.

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Speaker 1: They're all different. But for me, Augusta was a place

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Speaker 1: I really did want to play well, and I did.

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Speaker 1: I had some good, good tournaments there. I led it

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Speaker 1: a couple of times, but you got to get to

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Speaker 1: the finish. The thing about Augusta to me was that

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Speaker 1: there were critical holes that you know, where I was

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Speaker 1: probably average in length. If you just average plus five yards,

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Speaker 1: you had a distinct advantage. And I referred to holes

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Speaker 1: mostly the par fives, but you can say number of five.

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Speaker 1: Back then, you could just drive it a little bit farther.

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Speaker 1: Going into that green with a mid iron or a

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Speaker 1: shorter iron than a four iron or five iron or

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Speaker 1: three iron was so much easier. If you get a

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Speaker 1: little bit farther at eight, get up that hill a bit,

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Speaker 1: you might have a chance to get it up to

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Speaker 1: the front edge of the green eleven. The same in

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Speaker 1: thirteen fifteen. Those holes, that just a couple of extra

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Speaker 1: yards makes a big difference on how you can approach

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Speaker 1: those greens. With one or two less clubs or par fives,

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Speaker 1: you might be able to get it on into And

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Speaker 1: that's what I lacked. I lacked that that extra o.

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Speaker 1: Could I hit it far enough? Yeah, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to sacrifice the accuracy just to try and get

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Speaker 1: it out there farther. Plus, I think my game was

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Speaker 1: always predicated on give me the tightest fairways out there

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Speaker 1: and put big tall trees right next to them. And

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Speaker 1: I led defined my target when I got to an

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Speaker 1: open championship or a little bit at a gust, because

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Speaker 1: the fairways aren't pretty generous, I kind of had a

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Speaker 1: hard time picking my target. That was for me psychologically

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Speaker 1: and mentally more difficult than it was driving it down

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Speaker 1: a really tight fairway. Yeah, the sky, little gust, there's

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Speaker 1: hard to get your head around when you first get

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Speaker 1: that there's nothing that I'm at. The fairways is so wide.

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Speaker 1: I mean the second shot to the second hall, you've

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Speaker 1: got football fields you can hit that ball into, like,

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Speaker 1: and it's sort of hard to sort of it makes

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Speaker 1: you forces you to sort of pick small targets, and

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Speaker 1: it's really difficult because the scale is so big. Like

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Speaker 1: you said, hey, when you're in traditional US Open setups,

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Speaker 1: or it's obvious I'm there and if you're good enough,

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Speaker 1: if you hit it there, you'll be good, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: And each each presents its own challenge. I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: ultra wide fairways at Augusta, at places like that, the

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Speaker 1: big scale can be just as awkward in a different way.

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Speaker 1: And then I found that for the Open Championship too.

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Speaker 1: You get there and you've got a relatively flat horizon

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Speaker 1: other than it might be in the dunes, but you

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Speaker 1: don't have big trees, you don't have big hillsides, you

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Speaker 1: have just the roles and the mounds. And you go

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Speaker 1: to Saint Andrew's, for instance, and you know there's probably

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Speaker 1: five eighty bunkers out there, but you can only see

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Speaker 1: three of them. And so for me it was here's

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Speaker 1: the fairway, but you're always supposed to play left, and

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Speaker 1: I couldn't never separate that in my own mind, and

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of it was how you approached playing.

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Speaker 1: You know, Jeff may have a different way of approaching

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Speaker 1: playing Wingingfoot than I. We were both successful at it,

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Speaker 1: but there might be different avenues in which to play.

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Speaker 1: But I just couldn't never get my mind or wrapped

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Speaker 1: around playing away from a target or seeing something that's

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Speaker 1: relatively flat. Hit at the church spire, see that that

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Speaker 1: cloud flying by those were I just I had a

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Speaker 1: hard time with that. Can I go back to something

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Speaker 1: Jeff just said a minute ago? You know he was

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Speaker 1: talking about the locker room at Wingfoot and how you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want the USGA, wouldn't want to be in there.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to know about the evolution of the USJ

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Speaker 1: as an authority figure in both your lives. And this

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Speaker 1: is kind of a theory. I don't know if it's true,

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Speaker 1: but like my mind, like when Hale was coming up

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Speaker 1: in the game and Hale's told me about going to it,

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Speaker 1: I think the sixty US Open was maybe your first

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Speaker 1: US Open that you went to as a fan. Is

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Speaker 1: that right, Hall, Yes? And like this is how I

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Speaker 1: came up and imagine held the same the USGA and

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Speaker 1: Alan I have joked about this over the years. They

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Speaker 1: were like the stern father that you need in your life.

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Speaker 1: And they told you how many clubs and what the

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Speaker 1: rules were, and you just kind of respect to them,

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Speaker 1: and they gave you the golf course and it was hard,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, you might complain about it, but it was

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Speaker 1: the USGA. And then so Hale, I'd like to hear

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Speaker 1: you on that, and then Jeff, I'd like to hear

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Speaker 1: if it's any different for you, And then i'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear you both talk about whether that's evolved, because

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Speaker 1: like if you think about that US Open at Oakmont

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, where you know, there was uproar

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Speaker 1: over the USGA and how they handled Dustin Johnson's you

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Speaker 1: know ball thing on that putting green, and now it's

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's that blind acceptance of the authority

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Speaker 1: figure and I think it's hurt golf. I know it's

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Speaker 1: a long we did question. I'm sorry for that, but

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Speaker 1: I hope that warms you guys up for maybe addressing

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Speaker 1: this broad question. Well, Michael, I wouldn't expect a short

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Speaker 1: question from you. Sorry, it's got to be long winded,

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Speaker 1: but I think you make a very very valid point.

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Speaker 1: You know, I went as a youngster. I was. I

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Speaker 1: just lived in Boulder, outside of Denver, but I was

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Speaker 1: relatively new to that environment and I just went down

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Speaker 1: there kind of an interesting I really didn't know much

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Speaker 1: about it, although I'll have to admit that it really

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Speaker 1: piqued me. The thing. Two things I remember most about

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Speaker 1: Denver just kind of how impressionable a young person can be,

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Speaker 1: was watching Oh yeah, Ed what's his name, it doesn't matter,

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Speaker 1: hit it off the first tea in a practice round

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Speaker 1: and the ball went out through where I remember mine

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Speaker 1: falling out of the here. He just kept going, Porkey, Oliver.

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Speaker 1: That's it. Way to Ed, Porkey Oliver hit it out

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Speaker 1: there to kept going. And then I saw Ben Hogan

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Speaker 1: on the practice he dump a shag bagful of brand

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Speaker 1: new balls, brand new balls, a shag balls. Wow. But

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Speaker 1: I did go on to play in the sixty six

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Speaker 1: US Open as an amateur at Olympic Club, and as

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Speaker 1: you say, the authoritative figure was there. I was fortunately

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Speaker 1: made the cut and I was first out the next day,

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Speaker 1: and the USGA was there reading me my rights about

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Speaker 1: how fast we had to play. We were the number

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Speaker 1: one out and they were going to be watching us

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Speaker 1: on every hole and it you know, it put the

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Speaker 1: fear in me. Now, if someone were do that in

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Speaker 1: today's game, you'd look at him and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: leave me alone, go away, Which I think is sad

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Speaker 1: in a way because I wish the USJA would go

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Speaker 1: back and make the rules a little bit more stern,

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Speaker 1: make them not as encompassing of everybody, because Jeff knows

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Speaker 1: this as well. The professor sort of level game where

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Speaker 1: we play us the same equipment, it's a different level

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Speaker 1: of competition, it's a different level of talent and taking

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Speaker 1: the same rules to apply throughout from the very best

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Speaker 1: to play the game at the professional level to the

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Speaker 1: club level, it's very difficult. So why not have two

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Speaker 1: separate rules, two separate rule book? And I just think

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Speaker 1: that the players that play the game professionally, I don't

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Speaker 1: have their own rules. Australia with the USGA was this

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Speaker 1: other body that we heard about because we grew up

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Speaker 1: under the RNA in Australia and by a sort of

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Speaker 1: relationship the Australian Golf Union, who certainly had that stern,

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Speaker 1: sort of strict headmaster type attitude towards us when we

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Speaker 1: were kids. But that was just part of it. And

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Speaker 1: like as much as we sort of bumped heads with

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Speaker 1: the authorities when we were kids, it was part of

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Speaker 1: the sport and it was kind of cool. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of always cool to have this, you know, strict boss

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Speaker 1: at the top. But I don't know. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think the USGA, I mean they did some funky stuff

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Speaker 1: along the way. I mean, I've read a bunch of

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Speaker 1: golf books. I don't think Sam Sneed was too friendly

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Speaker 1: with the USGA. They used to give him some dodgy

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Speaker 1: t times in the US Open, and they sort of

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Speaker 1: made up the rules as they went along a little

362
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Speaker 1: bit from what I understand from history. But I mean

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Speaker 1: there's still there's still a bit of respect them, and

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Speaker 1: it's different. The world has changed so much. I mean,

365
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Speaker 1: with keyboard warriors on their phones and high speed cameras

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Speaker 1: getting Dustin's ball moving, and those things have happened forever

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Speaker 1: in golf, you know, It's just that now everybody's watching

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Speaker 1: and everyone has an opinion on what the right and

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Speaker 1: wrong thing to do in the situation. And I'm very

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Speaker 1: very happy that Dustin won that tournament because I thought

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Speaker 1: he got pretty hardly done by there. And they changed

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Speaker 1: the rule because of it, which was interesting. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think they ultimately have basically the respect. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't think professional golfers are the right people to

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Speaker 1: ask about the USGA really, because we only had one

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Speaker 1: real exposure to him every year, and that's the US Open,

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Speaker 1: and that's not that's sort of not something that's going

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Speaker 1: to make you love for people who set it up,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, so you shouldn't ask us. But I think,

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Speaker 1: all in all, I think the rules thing I think

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Speaker 1: is interesting that Hoyle brought up. I think when they

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Speaker 1: changed the rules, I knew the rule, every rule in

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Speaker 1: golf up and down until a few years ago. Now

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Speaker 1: I don't have a clue like they keep changing them

385
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Speaker 1: and um, all in the effort to speed up play,

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Speaker 1: but fundamentally, if people just play faster, it'll get faster.

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Speaker 1: It's not because of how high people drop the ball from.

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Speaker 1: I used to read the rule, but because I saw

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Speaker 1: afraid I was gonna have an infraction of a rule

390
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: that Like you, I knew the rules up one side,

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Speaker 1: down the other, and I read them on a plane

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Speaker 1: or back of the room. I just feared having to

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Speaker 1: get in a situation where I didn't know the rule,

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Speaker 1: and like you, Jeff, I don't know how to drop

395
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Speaker 1: a ball anymore. It feels so odd dropping it from

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Speaker 1: my knee. And then what is They're not waterheads was anymore?

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Speaker 1: They're penalty areas well. You can have that in the

398
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Speaker 1: middle of fairway if you're in a divit, you know.

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Speaker 1: I just don't. I just wish we'd go back to

400
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Speaker 1: defining the rules what they really are and leave them

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Speaker 1: at that. Not that I want to go back to

402
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Speaker 1: stymies and where you don't ever touch your ball, but

403
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Speaker 1: I do think that we need to tighten up the

404
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 1: rules so we all can play under the same banner

405
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Speaker 1: of rules rather than these loose kind of interpretations. I

406
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Speaker 1: have a funny story from excuse me, that Oakmont situation.

407
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 1: You know, it was the last few holes were playing out.

408
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: No one knew it was going to happen with Dustin,

409
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: how it was going to affect his score. The entire

410
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 1: tournament was thrown into chaos, and I was asking people,

411
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Speaker 1: where's Mike Davis. He'd gone totally underground, and so finally

412
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Speaker 1: someone said, I saw him in the locker room. So

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Speaker 1: I ran into the into the locker room at Oakmont

414
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Speaker 1: and there was Davis. He's walking around in a towel.

415
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Speaker 1: He just he'd just taken a shower so he could

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Speaker 1: be fresh for the for the trophy ceremony, and he's

417
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: tying his tie and he's not on his phone. He

418
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: was completely unbothered by this whole thing. I mean, the

419
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: tournament was on the brink of anarchy and he's in

420
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: there messing with his winds or not. And I was like, man,

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Speaker 1: this is unbelievable, Like I'm more stressed out about this

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Speaker 1: than Mike Davis is, and it's his tournament. And I've

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Speaker 1: never forgotten that that attitude was kind of like it

424
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Speaker 1: was almost callous and indifferent, Like I think there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways that could have handled it, but

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Speaker 1: they it was probably the worst possible way. And I'll

427
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: never forget Mike Davis in his towel, just kind of

428
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 1: hanging out in the locker room. Well, the us opens

429
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: crumbling around him. But anyway, I had to share that

430
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 1: well maybe Mike, Mike knew then more than anybody else

431
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: that he was leaving the USDA had to leave these

432
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: problems to the next president executive director. Yeah, that was

433
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: that was an amazing moment, as you surely know. You know.

434
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: Linksoul is a clothing and a lifestyle brand. I've been

435
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 1: wearing it for at least a decade. It's cool stuff,

436
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: it's super comfy, and one of the Firepit loves it.

437
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: We're believers. If you go to linksol dot com and

438
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 1: the promo code fire Pit twenty five, you will get

439
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 1: twenty five percent off your purchase. You're welcome, and we're

440
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: also giving away a two hundred and fifty dollars links

441
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: Sold gift card per episode. So go to the fire

442
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: Pit YouTube channel and leave a comment from this episode

443
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: and say how much you loved it, because surely you're

444
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: loving it. You're a golf fan. You have to be

445
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: loving this. And the winners will be notified and promoted

446
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: on our Instagram and our Twitter feeds. So get involved.

447
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: We're trying to have some fun. We also have to

448
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: pay the bills here at the fire Pit Collective. So

449
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: back to Nita Fourth. You know, obviously, Hale, it's part

450
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: of your biography that that maybe younger fans aren't even

451
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: aware of that you are a badass football player in

452
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: college and at Colorado won some some accolades, and you

453
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: know there's there's a lot of debate about our our

454
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: golfers real athletes or not. I would I would love

455
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: to hear your take on this and how how being

456
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: a football player informed you as a golfer. Well, certainly

457
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: two different ways to go at it. Football for me,

458
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: and we're talking about not football as they have in Europe,

459
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: which is soccer as we know it, and and not

460
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: that crazy game that he play in Australia. Oh god,

461
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: that is nuts to play the reading rules football. But

462
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: to me it was away through college. You know, my

463
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: mom and dad didn't have a lot of money, and

464
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: whereas I was really at that time, my golf was

465
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: I'd won the state high school, I'd won some state tournaments,

466
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: but in the state of Colorade, we weren't blessed with

467
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: a lot of players that can really play at a

468
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: high level. So I really know what I could do

469
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: with my game, and no golf school universities had come

470
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: around with any interest in me being on a golf team.

471
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: So when you get to kind of a full ride

472
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: scholarship to play football, Okay, my dad was handing me

473
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: the pen here son sounds good to us and I

474
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: and that was fine. I don't regret it. For one moment.

475
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: Most of the time, it taught me a lot of discipline.

476
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: Because I was undersized, I had to do things in

477
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: a very disciplined way. I had to really convinced myself

478
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: that I was playing larger than I really was. I

479
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: had to make those players opposite me respect me and

480
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: maybe much to my physical pain. But there's just certain

481
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: things you had to do, and some of that I

482
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: think flipped over to my golfers. I think specific of

483
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: the discipline. I've never had a coach, I've never had

484
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: an instructor, and just it wasn't available. I didn't have

485
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: the money anyway, So I think there were things that

486
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: I had to do within me internally to expose what

487
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: talent I may or may not have. And that could

488
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: be the same for a lot of people. But you're right,

489
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: football and golfers kind of a strange combination if you

490
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: had baseball and golf, or basketball and golf. But I

491
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: think a lot of kids in today's world are restricted

492
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: to one sport or one activity and that's it. And

493
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of things that could benefit

494
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: those kids to have some cross training, mental and physical.

495
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: Playing other sports, you learn how to accommodate in a

496
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: team game. You learn how to accommodate yourself in a

497
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: golf for instance. So I encourage parents and your youth

498
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: to play all the sports you can get, get a

499
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: taste of all of it, and then you'll you'll weed

500
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: it down to the ones you enjoy. Did you wear

501
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: a leather helmet? Oh? Yeah, I folded it up and

502
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: put it in my pocket. You know that was my winner,

503
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: Beanie when I go back to the door. Oh, you're funny, Allen.

504
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: But I would I would assume that was the most

505
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: manly era of football. I mean, the protecting the quarterback

506
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: and receiver rules were those were way off in the future.

507
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: The idea of targeting, all that stuff. I mean, and

508
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: you were, you were playing the Texas schools, and I mean,

509
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: just give us a taste of what just how how

510
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: gladiatorial those football games were back then. Well, there was

511
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: a certain team which will go un named, but they

512
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: were in the Big Eight championship and they have to

513
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: be and still water Ocloma. I will not say who

514
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: that team was, though they were at the time a

515
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: very physical team and we had what we call late

516
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: whistle practices, so we would go full speed during the

517
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: week and to get ready for this. And if a

518
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: runner went down, the whistle didn't blow for several seconds too,

519
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: so you get accustomed to somebody coming in and still

520
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: trying to block you, that the play still continued. But

521
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: and I hated those. I hated those. But you learn

522
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: through different means how to accommodate each team. The physicality

523
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: of football speaks for itself. There were some guys that

524
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: were extremely fair but extremely tough. There were guys that

525
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: played a little under the bonnet. You know, they took

526
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: some cheap shots. But then again, that's the way it was,

527
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: that's the way you played, and you had to be

528
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: aware of that. And you know, okay, if I get

529
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: that from you, okay, you can respect something for me

530
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: here pretty soon if I have the opportunity. But again,

531
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: it's sort of like David Goliath. You know, I felt

532
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: like I was David almost all the time. And you know,

533
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: David wins out in the end. That's great. I have

534
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: one for Jeff now down Under with the Aussie rules.

535
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: Those guys are nuts, are they not. I mean, that's

536
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: a tough, tough game. It is a tough game, like

537
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: it's evolved a lot. You would have seen it back

538
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, back in the seventies and

539
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: eighties and stuff. I'm sure it was tough. They were

540
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: big kids, they hit hard. There was only one or

541
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: two umpires on the field, and they couldn't look at

542
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: there's eighteen players on each field and a really big field,

543
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: so when the umpires the balls up there, I mean

544
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: they were given it to each other at the other

545
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: end of the field. Like I mean, it was it

546
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: was a proper battle. It was a bit like hockey,

547
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: you know. It was just any hit was fair unless

548
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: it was sort of like really dangerous. But with all

549
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: the cameras and there's more umpires now, and they have

550
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: this thing called trial by videos, so like they video

551
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: every player on the field and afterwards they all get

552
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: suspended if they've come up with too many cheap hits.

553
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: And it's like all sports has been taken over by

554
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: sports science and they've worked out that it's more effective

555
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: to score against teams if you're running more and you're

556
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: not hitting as much, and so it's a little bit

557
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: friendly and now than it was back then. But yeah,

558
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: back then, it was violent, like if you had all

559
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: you take, he went drawing you know. Yeah, Well, Jeff

560
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: made a good comment earlier that sports, all sports have

561
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: come under the camera and the microscope of analysis, and

562
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: those in those days we didn't have that. You you

563
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: played pretty much on the honor system in golf, and

564
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: were there players that probably took that and broke it. Yeah,

565
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: they were probably singular in nature and we all knew

566
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 1: who they were. But for the most part, the players

567
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: played very much according to the rules as we had

568
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: the rules then, and the same for these other sports.

569
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: But incomes to television and the media, and now there's

570
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: a super analysis and say sports science and how to

571
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: go about things that there's more of a specific target

572
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: now and you can take that right to hitting a driver.

573
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: You know. I watched young man not too for the

574
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: TPC Scotts Stale here, not too long ago. I was

575
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: out there, well too long ago, probably three years, four years,

576
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: and this kid had his teacher and he was bombing

577
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: these drives and after every drive they went over and

578
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: looked at the launch monitor and I'm thinking I would

579
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: have taken any one of those, but his coaches almost

580
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: berating him for not doing this and that. And to me,

581
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: they were awesome, every one of them. But they played

582
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: by the numbers. Now they don't really play by field.

583
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: They don't play by Hey. You know, I'll take that

584
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: anytime on any hole and go on to the next one.

585
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: It's got to be that perfect swing, hit the ball, launch, angle,

586
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: spin rate, blah blah blah. And the feel of the

587
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: game is gone. And I think in that in that

588
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: sense the kind of what we're talking about in general,

589
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: the feel of the game is not what it once was,

590
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: and things are never static, they always move around. But

591
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: I've kind of long for the day where we would

592
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: get back to a little bit more of a structured

593
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: environment and keep all those well. Another story two No.

594
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: Last year, I was at the Players Championship having lunch

595
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: with the President of Championship, Miller Brady. We're up in

596
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: the eighteenth hole having launched, and I'm looking down on

597
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: the green and there were eighteen people on the green.

598
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: Eighteen and I'm thinking, this is you gotta be kidding me.

599
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: There was the four players, the caddies. Okay, now you've

600
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: got ten others that are what are they But they're

601
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: walking on the greens or throwing balls back to the players,

602
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: and they're this now to me, eighteen people to have

603
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: one group. You got it, that's a joke, So that

604
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: to me is overdone. But again they're talking to doing

605
00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: an old guy, well kind of, I mean Gray, I mean,

606
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: I think these track man and these launch monitors are

607
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: really good tool, but I think they become such a

608
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: they become the focus. I mean, they don't even watch

609
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: the ball. Like Hale said, these kids will hit a

610
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: driver and they'll look at the screen. They won't even

611
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: watch the ball. And I'm sure if if you'd got

612
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: Hogan or Jack or Trevino or something, they were a

613
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 1: track man, I mean he could He couldn't have told

614
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: you the specific numbers, but he would have told you

615
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: if it was good or bad, and if it was

616
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: spinning too much, or it was how he'd struck the ball.

617
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: He didn't need a computer to tell him because he

618
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: just let the ball tell him what was happening. And

619
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: I think, like Hale says, you lose a bit of

620
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: feel for the game if you don't do that enough,

621
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I'm sure it's a good tool

622
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: to go back to and check stuff, and there's absolutely

623
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: advantages to it, but it seems to have become such

624
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: a crutch. These guys play practice rounds on tour with

625
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: two guys carrying around launch monitors and putting him down

626
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: behind every single shot. I'm not sure that's how you

627
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: shoot lower scores. I don't know, maybe it is, but yeah,

628
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: it's definitely the flavor of the months. To do that.

629
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: It would be much more fun, I think, to see

630
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: these kids out there playing for one hundred dollars just

631
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: with themselves, you know, and competing and getting under pressure

632
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 1: and needling each other on the last few holes and stuff.

633
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: I think that is far more the skill that you

634
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: want to polish than having a plus three point five

635
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: down swing or whatever these numbers they're chasing, you know.

636
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: So I think it's every sport's happened though. I mean

637
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: every sport has been taken over by sports science people

638
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: who initially go in to improve the game, and they do,

639
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: but I think it just takes over to such a

640
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: level that the focus of the game is now good

641
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: numbers on a screen, not low scores, you know, not

642
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: being able to read a lot. I mean golf, you

643
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: just can't science tournament golf. I mean every lie you

644
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: ever have is different, every day is different. I mean,

645
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: my ball goes a different distance every day, like even

646
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: in Arizona, Like it's cool one morning, it's going nowhere.

647
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: By lunchtime, it's going twenty yards further. You know, Like

648
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: I don't know how you do that on a launch mournament,

649
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: but if you play golf every day, you can just tell, well,

650
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: my seven nine is going to go one hundred and

651
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: seventy five. It just feels like it, you know. Um,

652
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: I think if you lose that connection one hundred whatever

653
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: that is, you get a long way away from it downhill.

654
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: My seven ns like you're five one though, right like

655
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: it's it's um. I actually have quite conservative lofts. I

656
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: have sort of semi old school lofts. I have the

657
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: lofts that I grew up with, like a forty eight

658
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: degree pitching wedge and a forty four degree ninine, but

659
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: I mean nineins forty degrees. Now I don't look at

660
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: the numbers on the bottom of the club anymore. I

661
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: just really they say, well, you've got two hundred and

662
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: three yards and he's hitting an eight yard Huh, how

663
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: do you do that? But I think Jeff makes a

664
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: great point. It's it's become so numerized that we forget

665
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: how to play and how about just a four and

666
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: a half hour practice round. Wouldn't that be something I

667
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: remember back when I was I'd try to be the

668
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: first one on the golf course just to get out

669
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: there and end. Yeah, I didn't want to spend six

670
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: hours watching some guy chip and button button, chip and

671
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: hit and hit and hit. And they said, well, do

672
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: you only play one ball in practice round? At the

673
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: US Open. That didn't stop very many players. I still

674
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: played in six hours practice round. So I think, of

675
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: all the things we can talk about, I think the

676
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: speed of play has the biggest negative influence in my opinion,

677
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: then anything else we could talk about. I think if

678
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: we don't pick up the speed of play and the

679
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: chitter chatter between player and ketty that goes on and

680
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: on and on, it may make good sound bites, but boy,

681
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: it takes a long time, and people tune out after that.

682
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: They in today's world, they want things to happen now

683
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: and not later. They want to see that shot now

684
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: and not lay. And I think we have to keep

685
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: that in mind. Well, what one counterpoint to what what

686
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: you guys were talking about is on this show, we

687
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: had just in the last couple months, we had brandall Shambli,

688
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 1: and we had Gary McCord, and both of them said

689
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: basically the same thing that they were They had tremendous

690
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: success as juniors and in the college game, and they

691
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: came out onto the tour and they had kind of

692
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: no clue what they were doing, and they lost their

693
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: way and they were never able to find it as

694
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: professionals because they didn't have the information, they didn't understand

695
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: their swing. They tried to emulate other players. And so

696
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: I'm wondering for you, Hale, as a guy who's never

697
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: really had an instructor, who didn't who just kind of

698
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: did it your own way, do you think if you

699
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: had access to the information and some of these tools,

700
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: you could have been significantly better or do you think

701
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: it would have hurt your sort of natural way of

702
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: playing the game. I would have to say it probably

703
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: would have hurt the way I naturally played the game.

704
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: And I think Jeff said it basically said, the ball

705
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: tells you what you're doing. If a ball courge left

706
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: or right, we'll just sit down and figure why is

707
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: the ball curve left to right? Why is it curved

708
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: right to left? And say, okay, there's this rotation that

709
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: rotiation is why isn't it spin up in the air well,

710
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: And you go back and say, the club at impact

711
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: had to be in this position to get there, that

712
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: my body had to be in this was to put

713
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: the club that way. You just trace it back and say, oh,

714
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: that's just a simple little here and in this swinging

715
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: there was. It's very simple. But we so overcomplicated that

716
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: the natural tendency of a player is overrun by the

717
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: numbers what the launch monitor is saying. And I just

718
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of players out there, and

719
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: we're seeing thousands of these kids come out of high

720
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: school and colleges that want to be number one in

721
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: the world. Well, they're not going to get there if

722
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: they don't listen to themselves first and quit playing by

723
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: the numbers all the time. I just I just think

724
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: it's the wrong way to go about it, you know.

725
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 1: And all to your point about out about what Brando

726
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: and mccordy were saying. I remember Hale telling me years

727
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: ago he learned golf on the PGA Tour and one

728
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: of the end I was sort of thinking about this

729
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: when you're talking about Mike Davidson locker room, he saw

730
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: Arnold and big Jack in the locker room. And here's

731
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: Arnold with his big chest and he hit the ball

732
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 1: with his chest. And here's Jack with these big thighs

733
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: and he hit the ball with his thighs. And then hell,

734
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: tell me if I'm not getting this right. But like

735
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: your body tells you how to play golf your way,

736
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: and Hale Orwin's you know, built differently than Jeff Ogilvie,

737
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: They're going to go out of different ways. So it

738
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: really comes from inside the golfer. And I think for

739
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: anybody our age and older, you were drawn to that

740
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: that was just that the golfer figured it out for himself,

741
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: and we are losing that. Well. I think if somebody

742
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: saw my body build versus Jeff, for instance, I think

743
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: Jeff probably has a closer body build, you know, taller

744
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: tram like today's player versus Mair. They were shorter players

745
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: and probably spent more time at the bar they did

746
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: on the practice team. But the fact is these kids

747
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: now he kind of come back to his golf. For athletes,

748
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: I'd say yes, because today's player has to be an athlete.

749
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: You have to be able to go out there and

750
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: do some of the things they do with athletic proudness. Now,

751
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: are there other things you'd pick up from other sports? Yes,

752
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: but I think today's player and you can go down

753
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: and and maybe ask Dustin Johnson if he was a

754
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: good athlete. Yeah, he's a good basketball player. You know,

755
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: go down, you pick him. Whomever they are, let's talk

756
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 1: about us open chambers. Ask everyone of them what they've

757
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: done in the past, and I'll almost guarantee that they've

758
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: played other sports along the way, maybe not at the

759
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: high level, but they have introduced their mind and their

760
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: bodies to other activities. Yeah, I agree. It's well when

761
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: you play out the sports, you're sort of learning how

762
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: to use you in your mind, like you say, like

763
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: in a different way, like you get weary one track

764
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: when you just play golf. But I think this, I

765
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: guess we can't just be like complete naysayers. I mean,

766
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: the level of golf played at the top now is outrageous,

767
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: Like it's really good. There's a lot of really good

768
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: But the fiftieth best player now is like he looked

769
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: like the number one golfer in the world twenty years ago, right, Like,

770
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of good players now, So

771
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: you can't poo poo, the whole approach. I just think, yeah,

772
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: it's very dangerous territory for a for a person who's

773
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: sort of one of those analytical type people who's going

774
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: to work really really hard and chase every little thread.

775
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: This technology is pretty dangerous, right because you've just got

776
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: any number of different sort of sort of avenues you

777
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: can go down to sort of flood your mind with overthinking.

778
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: I think for guys like Dustin Johnson and those guys

779
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: who can just sort of take a bit of information,

780
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: say that's mine, and then just go off and play

781
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: golf like Dustin Johnson, I think it's a really ball

782
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: to all this stuff. I just think it's it's it's

783
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: risky for this. I've seen a lot of golfers over

784
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: the last and I'm sure how I'll saw it through

785
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: his career that as soon as you start, there's there's

786
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: a certain type of personality that if you get down

787
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: that technical path, like you're not coming back. You know,

788
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: you're just going down and down and down. And I

789
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: think that door is wider open than it's ever been,

790
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, because there's just so many different ways you

791
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: can analyze the sport. I think you have to a

792
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: coach's true job really, because it seems like you're not

793
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: allowed to play golf without a coach anymore, not many do.

794
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: But a coach's true job is to teach a player

795
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: how to teach himself and to become redundant. I mean,

796
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: the best coach becomes redundant the fastest right. And guys

797
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: like Butch. Butch for out of out of Area seems

798
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: to have done that really really well. You know, he

799
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: gives a guy a couple of things. You know, what

800
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: your best when you do these sort of things, and

801
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: then he just leaves them alone. If you've ever been

802
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: on the arrangement, butchers teach any of his good players.

803
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: He's just standing there telling stories. He's not really telling

804
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: them too much, you know, he's just Jessy playing well

805
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: to day, DJ. Look how well you're hitting it today, DJ,

806
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: And he's just telling stories. That's a great coach. Whereas

807
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: the guy who's the players calling up after I mean,

808
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: I've played lots of practice rounds with the guys who

809
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: are calling their coach on the fourth hole, going what

810
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: am I doing? I'll just hit it in the right

811
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: trees on the third you know, like that's a bad

812
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: spot to be. And the nature of the sport at

813
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 1: the moment is it's very easy to get that way.

814
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: You know, they're sending swings, they're taking a swing, their

815
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: caddies holding the phone behind them on the thirteen and

816
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: they're taking a video and they're sending it back and

817
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: they're getting a lesson before they get to their second shot.

818
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: You know, that isn't playing golf. That's not you playing golf.

819
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: That's getting somebody else to tell you what to do.

820
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: So I think it's a dangerous direction. But as I

821
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: said when we started this, the level is so high

822
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: at the moment of the best golfers you can't really

823
00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: pick at the approach because they are getting very, very good. Well.

824
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: Having said that, though, let's go back to review who

825
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: the winners have been, primarily over the last several years.

826
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: It's going to be kind of the same names like

827
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: they were in the past too. The best players are

828
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: going to emerge one way or another. And is there

829
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: anybody that's ever played the game at the level that

830
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: John Roman is right now? And we get to how

831
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: about Scottishcheffler last last year? You know we have those guys.

832
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: Did anybody ever play the game at the level of

833
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: Tiger Woods. Well, it could have been a guy named

834
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas. You know, you can pick out those players

835
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: or that group of players that were always the best,

836
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: and they were always the best. And there are other

837
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: front runners, and there are ones that want to be

838
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: part of the show and they are, but not in

839
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: the traditional long term sense that we're talking about right here. Well,

840
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: on that note, I looked at the Senior Tour leaderboard

841
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: yesterday and it was Ernie Els and Fred Couples and

842
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: all these guys we've been doing it forever, but also

843
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 1: got named Bernhard Longer at the top. And he got

844
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: the win and he tied a certain record that's held

845
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: by a certain guy on this podcast for most career

846
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: Senior Tour victories. And I think that's it's it's always

847
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: been a neat part of your biography, Hale, is that

848
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: you got the Senior Tour and you went to a

849
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: level that no one had ever really reached. All the

850
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: Peter Thompson had had one heck of a year as well,

851
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: and you've you've took that record from him. But the longevity,

852
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: the excellence, and the grit and the determination to keep

853
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: wanting to go forward and prepare and to win. How

854
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: much did your senior success mean to you? And what

855
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: would you say about Bernhard longer now that he's he's

856
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: matched the wind total. Well, you know, for me, golf

857
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: was it was my vocation. It was not my advocation.

858
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't something I spent a lot of time at

859
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: home doing. When I was home, I was home. I

860
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: wanted to be with my family. I wanted to be

861
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to take the kids to school. I wanted

862
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: to do the things that most people consider mundane, but

863
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: I thought they were so neat because it didn't get

864
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: to do them. And you're traveling all the time. And

865
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: I think once I got to a point on the

866
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: Champions Tour, I just kind of took stock of where

867
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: I am, where do I want to go? Not that

868
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: I'm running out of time, but you have to have

869
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: some idea of longevity and you don't know how long

870
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: that will be. In that what do you still want

871
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: to do with your life? And interestingly, I think when

872
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: I started thinking that I felt my game level off,

873
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: I just I lost a little of that focus. I

874
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: lost a little of that willingness to prepare each and

875
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,479
Speaker 1: every week. It was getting more difficult each and every time.

876
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: I think anybody's ever played the game at some level

877
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: of success. Whatever you do, not just golf, but whatever

878
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: you do, and you've achieved some major of success, I think,

879
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: how long can you keep that up? What are you

880
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: happy with? Now? See? I found that I was once

881
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: I made kind of that started that thinking process. Now

882
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: I'm I'm finishing twenty fifth, I'm finishing thirtieth, I'm finishing. Boy,

883
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: I played great. I finished fifteenth. That's not where I

884
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: wanted to be. That's not where I had been. And

885
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: what age was that hill? Seventy six? That was probably

886
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: a good ten years ago? Twelve years ago. I just

887
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: felt like I could still play, I can still hit

888
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: the shots, but I wasn't in it. My heart wasn't

889
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: in it, my mind wasn't in it. I can go

890
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: out now and I can hit golf shots, although the

891
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: green seemed to be a little further way than it

892
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: used to be. But it's not that I can't. It's

893
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: just that I don't have that willingness to do the

894
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: things that you need to do. And Burnard has done that.

895
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: He's kept himself fit. He plays a lot of golf,

896
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: but could I have gone on to win forty six

897
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: or seventy Yeah, in my mind undoubtedly. Now could I

898
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: don't know, but in the belief that I could. But

899
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: that's not where I wanted to go. I wanted to

900
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: make a turn in my life and spend more quality

901
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: time with my family doing the things that I still

902
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: had to check those boxes. And I didn't want to

903
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: leave this world not having experienced some of those things.

904
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: And I found then by level of efficiency on the

905
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 1: golf course started dropping, and it was more mental than anything.

906
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: But then again, I've had some physical things. I've had

907
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: some left knee surgery. I've got some foot problems on

908
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: my left side. As Jeff can tell you, you get

909
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: something on your leading side, go off, you can't drive

910
00:49:58,400 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: it the way you used to. It becomes a little

911
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 1: flick of the risks and oh, that's an ugly shot.

912
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: But it's just things like that, little things, but they

913
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: mount up, and that's that's why some players succeed the

914
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: little things they do well, and other players can do

915
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: most of the things well, but they don't do the

916
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: little things as well. Hence you get those guys that

917
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: repetitively win all the time. Hell, you went the US

918
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 1: Open at age forty five. Age I think, Jeff is, now,

919
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: what do you think it is in your character that

920
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,240
Speaker 1: allowed you to be as good at golf at thirty

921
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: five as you were at forty five. That's probably the

922
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 1: I had the willingness. And I go back to that, Michael,

923
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: simply because in nineteen eighty five, I was forty years

924
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: old and I had just won the Memorial Tournament, and

925
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: I started and Jeff knows this, he's in the golf

926
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: course design. I just started my golf course design company.

927
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: And there's only so much time you could put into

928
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,439
Speaker 1: each one of those. And if I was one hundred

929
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: percent into playing, now I had to extract from that

930
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 1: some time and effort to put over here to design. Well,

931
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: there's that level that falls on the playing side that

932
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: now makes me just another player. And I went that

933
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,479
Speaker 1: way for about five years. So now I had gone

934
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: from you know, being a very good player forty years

935
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: old and now back then remember four years old, My gosh,

936
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: you're over the hill to can't play anymore. There's this

937
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: thought process as well. You better, you know, start doing

938
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: some janitorial duty somewhere, because you can't be a play

939
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 1: golf anymore. So I at the winter of nineteen eighty nine,

940
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: I sat down at my desk and I wrote down

941
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: termis I had won and what thoughts I had because

942
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: I had and I really enjoyed the design process and

943
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: we were successful at it, and it was really a

944
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: lot of fun. I enjoyed the heck out of it.

945
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: But there's still a part of me and saying, Okay,

946
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 1: if I'm going to give excuse me this playing one

947
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: more year and if it's no good that I'm done.

948
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 1: So I sat down and wrote the tournaments I had,

949
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: what thoughts I had. So I went back to my

950
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 1: first win, and if I couldn't remember something, then I'd

951
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: leave it and I'd come back to it. But what

952
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: that did. It spurred me into thinking like a player again,

953
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: not just somebody out there playing golf, but somebody that

954
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: had won, and what were those championship thoughts? And we

955
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: started the ninety season, I could feel my game starting

956
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: to come around. The preparation was a little more intense,

957
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 1: the specifics of what I was trying to do became

958
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: a little bit better. And so when we got around

959
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: to open at medinah Oh, I told my wife two

960
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: weeks before the tournament that well, I didn't like that,

961
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: but I just felt like, I'm I don't feel a

962
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: stranger here. I've been here before. And when I went

963
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: out that day, as you know, let's play a good round,

964
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: try and finish in the top fifteen, which gets you

965
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: invited into the tournament the next year. Because I was

966
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: invited that year, the USGA gave me free pass into

967
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: the tournament, so I didn't want to have to I

968
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: was not gonna do that again. I just too much

969
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: respect for the organization and the tournament to do that.

970
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,399
Speaker 1: So I went out and in fact, I was paired

971
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: with your rosie friend Greg Norman's the last day, and

972
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: I remember Gregg and Birdie the tenth hole. I remember thinking,

973
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: you know, another birdie or two. He You never know

974
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: what's going to happen because the leaders are an hour

975
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: behind us. So I just said, okay, forget it. And

976
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: I looked at the leaderboard and I was one shot

977
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: out of the top fifteen. Okay, let's just focus on that.

978
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 1: So I Birdie number eleven, that's okay, Top ten, I'm

979
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: Birdie number twelve, okay, top five, Bertie thirteen, jeez. Then

980
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: a Bertie fourteen. So now I've gone from kind of

981
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: off the board on one shot back and so when

982
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: we get around to a part of fifteen sixteen seventy.

983
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: So that's why the big putt at eighteen got me

984
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: in the lead in the clubhouse. But never did I

985
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: think it would win out right, I really didn't. It

986
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 1: was that I just played the last eight holes in

987
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: the US opened five hundred far and I got to

988
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: a goal that I had sort of moving goals if

989
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: you wish I'd kept moving and kept the bar hied

990
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: and higher, but I got there. And that's that's where

991
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the previous years of the football,

992
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 1: that discipline, the intensity, all that I think really kicked

993
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: in and helped me a lot. The experience of having

994
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: been there helped me a lot. The next day, I

995
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: have to say it was I didn't play nearly as well.

996
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: You know, Mike Donald played very steady golf, but I

997
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: was two shots down with three holes to play, and

998
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: we made a great birdie at sixteen, and unfortunately for

999
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: Mikey he made a bow get the eighteenth hold to

1000
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: put us into a real playoff, which I buried the

1001
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 1: first extra hole. So all of that I think speaks

1002
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: to you can do a lot of things if you

1003
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: put your mind to it, and if you waver at all,

1004
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: then you better not be frustrated with the results because

1005
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: you have to be on point. You have to believe

1006
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 1: in yourself and you have to go out there and

1007
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: do the things that you know what you need to do,

1008
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: not what somebody else is telling you need to do.

1009
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: You have to feel it, you have to experience it,

1010
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: and then when you do it, it's a whole different feeling.

1011
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: And Jeff knows exactly what I'm talking about because it

1012
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: goes to all of us. Jeff, have you ever tried

1013
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: something that was extremely interesting Hill? Jeff, have you ever

1014
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: tried something similar where you know, being at forty five

1015
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: and you have so many interests in golf, so many

1016
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: different interests in different aspects of golf, But that idea

1017
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 1: of going back to your tournament wins and doing a

1018
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: deep dive and where you were there and what you

1019
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: can take from that and a play to where you

1020
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: are now, like Hell was talking about. Yeah, I mean

1021
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: I kind of do it all the time I thought of,

1022
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 1: I mean not quite as formally obviously sat down and

1023
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: said write the decision time, let's do this properly. But yeah,

1024
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: there's absolutely no doubt when I was doing well, and

1025
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: I think when any guys are doing well, it's it's

1026
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: almost sort of that zen like. It's a monk like approach.

1027
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: It's the only one thing in your life and it's golf,

1028
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: and you've got a specific focus, and when you wake

1029
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: up in the morning, there's no doubt about what you're doing.

1030
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: You're going through your thing, and it can be hitting

1031
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: balls for twelve hours, or it can be just doing

1032
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: your one hour of practice, whatever it is. It's like you,

1033
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 1: like Hale says, if you know that makes you better

1034
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: when it's it's I guess it's clarity of vision and

1035
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 1: there's nothing else involved. I think once you start having

1036
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: kids and getting a few other interests and wake up

1037
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: in the morning, you've got ten other thoughts and you

1038
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: do a couple of other things. I'll just go I'll

1039
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,720
Speaker 1: go hit some balls later in the afternoon and stuff

1040
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: I just doesn't work, and not not for me at least.

1041
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 1: It has to be sort of a very singular, singular

1042
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: sort of approach, you know, like focus. When I wake

1043
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: up in the morning, there's no doubt I'm going to

1044
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: go do this. I'm going to do this, I'm going

1045
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: to do this, and it's all about becoming a better golfer.

1046
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: I think as a golf became harder, it wasn't really

1047
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: golf becoming harder. It was me just getting into more stuff,

1048
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: you know, and having more stuff in your mind. And

1049
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: so you start playing bad in the first three holes,

1050
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 1: in your head goes off to somewhere else because it's

1051
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: just easier to think about something else than it is

1052
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: about golf. And yeah, it's it's valuable. How I'll described

1053
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: it is probably like one of the most powerful things

1054
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: someone can do, especially like when you've been good and

1055
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: then you start struggling a little bit sort of work

1056
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: out what it is. And golf has this funny sort

1057
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: of habit of making you think it's your putter or

1058
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: like your golf swing, or like you're not stretching your

1059
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: hamstrings enough or whatever it is. But it really isn't that.

1060
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: It's a peaceful place in your head where you just

1061
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: you know what you want to do and you know

1062
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: what you have to do to do that, and it's

1063
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: it's a great place to be. It's just a pureness

1064
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: of approach or simplicity, and there's only really one thing

1065
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: you want to do, and it's I just do this

1066
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: and I'm going to get better. I think when you

1067
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: get to a golf tournament there's a piece in knowing

1068
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: that you've been doing all the right things too, when

1069
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: you get there and you feel really well prepared. And

1070
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:40,919
Speaker 1: as I said, it doesn't have to be hitting balls

1071
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: twelve hours a day like Hogan for two months. I

1072
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: think it's just doing what you know makes you better.

1073
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: You get there, there's just a bit more you play

1074
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: with a bit more ease, and you're a bit more

1075
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: patient with yourself because you know you sort of doing

1076
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: the best you can. And Yeah, everything that Hale said

1077
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,439
Speaker 1: resonated really well. I think it's quiet wise and people

1078
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: would be too very well to listen to it. This

1079
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: podcast has gotten deep. I love it. Uh Well, Hale's

1080
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: been very generous with this time. Before we before we

1081
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: let him go, Any any last questions you want to

1082
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: fire at him? Machael got any long winded one? Yeah,

1083
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: I don't even have you even fallen Hale forever. He

1084
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: was part of Men in Green, your your spectacular book

1085
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: about all your childhood heroes. I'll brag about Hale a

1086
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: lot of you know, all our listeners would know a

1087
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: lot about Hale and his plank career. But Hale as

1088
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 1: a welcoming luncheon partner. I'll tell a quick story about that.

1089
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: But Hale and I were having lunch at the Memorial

1090
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: Tournament last year, and Tony Jacqueline was there, and Andy

1091
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: North was there, and Jordan Speet was one table over

1092
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: all these US Open winners and legends of the game,

1093
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: and like, what am I doing at this table? Obviously

1094
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 1: snuck in somehow and don't belong here. And Hale kindly

1095
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: said to me, well, Michael, who who are What are

1096
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: some of the good swings you've admired over the years?

1097
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: Like wow, a generous way to get a ninety shooter

1098
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: involved in the conversation. So hey, I want to I

1099
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: want to thank you for that, and thank you for

1100
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: for this time and sharing such interesting thoughts. It was

1101
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: neat to see Jeff respond to what you just said

1102
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: on such a deep level, So thank you. Well, you're

1103
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: tying well. I've enjoyed it, and Jeff's good to see it.

1104
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: I've always loved to speak to a fellow players and

1105
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: fellow champions, because I think we all have the same

1106
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 1: intensity in us. Some show it differently and it comes

1107
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 1: out in different ways, but ultimately it's how you play

1108
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: the game I think helps define what you're going to be.

1109
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: And you know, the thing I'll have to say is

1110
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: hitting balls for twelve hours. I don't think I've hit

1111
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: practiced for twelve hours in any week, but my thought

1112
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: was always go hit as many balls as you have

1113
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: to to get done what you want to get done.

1114
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 1: If you get it done in fifteen minutes, go home.

1115
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: You know. I never left the practice ground or the

1116
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: putting green without hitting a good shot or hearing the

1117
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 1: ball going the hole, even if I had to putter

1118
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: from a foot away, and never left without hearing that

1119
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: Luca at the last. And I think that's the way

1120
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: you leave something is on a good note. And with this,

1121
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 1: this has been a great time. Thank you so much

1122
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: for the opportunity. Ka Luka, there you go. It's been

1123
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: a pleasure. I will say when when Hale broke Peter

1124
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: Thompson's Senior Tour record for victories in a season, I

1125
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: was there covering it in Hawaii. This is a long

1126
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: time ago and for Sports Illustrated we convinced Hale to

1127
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: do a photo shoot. Took a fishing pull down onto

1128
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: the lava rocks and he was in Hawaiian shirt and

1129
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: it was a little cheesy, but he went with it.

1130
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: You've never seen anyone pretend to reel in a thousand

1131
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: pound fish the way it Hale did. The intensity like

1132
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 1: he just threw himself into this photos shoot, and I've

1133
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: always always made me laugh thinking about it. But the

1134
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: guys committed. I think that's I think that's something that

1135
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: our listeners will get from this this podcast. As you

1136
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: got wife's worth, live and go live it, folks, go

1137
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: live it. There you go. Well, what a gent haill

1138
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: Irwin Um very underrated, droll since the humor he really

1139
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: makes me chuckle like he's just the delivery is so great.

1140
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: But what did you guys take from that conversation? Yeah,

1141
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: he's great when you I mean very wise about golf.

1142
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: Um clearly still loves the game. Um yeah, great, enjoyed,

1143
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 1: enjoyed every minute. His stories are great. Um, the way

1144
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 1: he approached it, I'm trying to I'm putting my golf

1145
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: pro golf hat on, trying to learn a little bit

1146
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: actually be honest. Yeah, it was neat to hear hear

1147
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:42,479
Speaker 1: you respond to hell a lot, Jeff. Have you spent

1148
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: much one or anyone in one time with with Hill? Yeah,

1149
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: a little bit along the way. I mean he's spent

1150
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: a lot of his time in Scott style, um, which

1151
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 1: I have too, so he like he mentioned TPC Scott

1152
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: style there a little bit, like he's popped up on

1153
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: the back of the range there a little bit. And

1154
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 1: we'll end up at the sun golf like sort of

1155
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: outings and golf days when the pros are all there

1156
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: in Arizona and stuff I've sent him. But he's always

1157
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: a good chat just like that. Yeah, very wise and

1158
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: like I said, Alan, at first you think he's very serious,

1159
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 1: you know, like he's kind of intimidatingly serious. But he

1160
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: isn't you know, once you starts sort of chatting to him,

1161
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: he's actually he's got a great little quick little wit

1162
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: and great stories. And he's been around. I mean, he's

1163
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: still he still seems so young, don't you think, Like

1164
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: he's just in such great shape and he's such a

1165
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: great athlete. Like he start mentioning that his first years

1166
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: open he went to was the nineteen sixty to go

1167
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: watch I know he was a kid, but that's where

1168
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: Hogan hit like fifty fifty one greens in a row

1169
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: or something like, um, Cherry Hills. Yeah, like that's a

1170
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: long time ago. I mean I read about that in

1171
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: books and he was actually there, so and he still

1172
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 1: looks great. Yeah. Yeah, And he his college team made

1173
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 1: a trip to Wingfoot and Tommy Armor was there. So

1174
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 1: it's just neat that here here the you know, you

1175
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: goes younger than I, but here we are spending an

1176
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: hour with a guy who knew Tommy Armor, and Tommy

1177
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 1: Armor goes back to nineteenth century golf. You know, it's

1178
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: a pretty fast one hundred and twenty years. So we're

1179
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: talking about here. Incredible. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that

1180
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: was fun. Well, um, I'll praise to Hale. I mean,

1181
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: what a career. I mean some twenty tour victories, three opens,

1182
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: and I don't think the Senior Tour can can really

1183
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 1: change a person's legacy very much, but I think in

1184
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 1: Hale's case, it really did elevate him because it just

1185
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: threw in a sharp focus what a competitor he was

1186
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: and the precision of his game and the longevity. I mean,

1187
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: to win forty something times out there and absolutely dominate.

1188
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: I mean eleven wins, eight wins, like that's neat. And

1189
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: he did it over a long period of time and

1190
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 1: obviously you know longer now. Matching that record has brought

1191
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: Hail back into the forefront. And you know, it was

1192
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: just it's it was. It was quite a second act

1193
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 1: or a final act for him. And so beating I mean,

1194
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: beating whoever turns up to play against you for fifty years,

1195
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: like that's outrageous. I mean, playing six good holes in

1196
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 1: a row is good in golf, you know, and he's

1197
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 1: done it. He did it for fifty years, like it's incredible.

1198
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: And for a guy who was a college footballer who

1199
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: didn't think he was that good, you know, yeah, it

1200
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: shows you the power of the mind and the like

1201
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: he said, the competitive nature of the thing. Really, Trump's

1202
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 1: like we were talking about all the science and all

1203
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 1: the technique and all that sort of stuff. I mean

1204
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: the competitive headspace, Trump's all of that. You know, He's

1205
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 1: obviously had it in spades. Is it an inspiration for you, Jeff?

1206
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 1: When you think about him whining a US opening forty

1207
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: five and you being about the same age and where

1208
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 1: you where your own life could go. Yeah, I mean

1209
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: I've thought about that sort of stuff. I mean, I

1210
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 1: haven't been playing that much the last few years, but

1211
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm starting to play a little bit more and absolutely

1212
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: like I think what you lose I mean, golf a

1213
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: little different now, maybe because they hit it further, but

1214
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: I still don't think it really is what you lose

1215
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: in your young athletic body when you get a bit older,

1216
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: is you're you're constantly gaining wisdom in golf. I think,

1217
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: whether you know it or not, you're sort of picking

1218
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 1: stuff up along the way. And as long as you

1219
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 1: keep playing, I think you can always sort of be dangerous.

1220
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: I think, especially in certain situations. Probably not maybe at

1221
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: Bethpage Black or something. I think those days are gone

1222
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: for me, but you never know, like there's certain places

1223
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 1: where I could probably do Okay, yeah, inspiration and look

1224
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: the scene is do a career too. It's like, I

1225
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 1: know it's not the same, but it's still competitive golf

1226
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 1: against your peers. It's really that feeling of coming down

1227
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 1: the stretch, having coming up with stuff under pressure and

1228
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 1: feeling it is like the real joy of the game,

1229
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: and it doesn't really matter what everybody else thinks. If

1230
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 1: you can actually have that experience, and to realize that

1231
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: I could still have fifteen or so years of that

1232
01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: sort of experience is kind of It's a nice thought. Yeah,

1233
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: I want to apologize for going blank but for a

1234
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: moment there. But after Alan talked about Mike Davis and

1235
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: his towel, I started kind of was in a woozy place,

1236
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 1: and it should be all I get back. The key

1237
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: is not to picture in your mind. Michael. You gotta

1238
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: you gotta got banish the mental image. I know what

1239
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 1: he did. Want to ask you guys very briefly, but

1240
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: how would Hale and how would Jeff in the Mike

1241
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 1: Davis role, and how would Sandy Tatum have responded to

1242
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,720
Speaker 1: Phil Mickelson playing hockey at Shinnecock that year? I know

1243
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 1: Tatum would have thrown his ass out of the tournament.

1244
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: I think Hale would have. Jeff, I don't know what

1245
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 1: you would have done. I didn't mind what he did

1246
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: as much as I hated his excuse. His excuse was

1247
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: can play crap. Like if he'd come off and said,

1248
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:47,959
Speaker 1: you know what, for twenty five years, I've been playing

1249
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: this tournament and I'm just sick of I'm messing it

1250
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 1: up by setting it up too hard. I just had enough,

1251
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: like stop making bowls are all off greens. Stop it

1252
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: like instead of saying, well, I thought I was going

1253
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 1: to have a lower score, like you come up with

1254
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 1: such bullshit that that's the pot, I didn't lock the

1255
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 1: fact that he did it. I mean it's no different

1256
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: from daily at Podhurst and stuff like that. I mean,

1257
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 1: you play enough, he always opens at some point you're

1258
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 1: gonna have a meltdown, like it's just gonna happen. And

1259
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 1: he had his little meltdown and then pretended like it

1260
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: wasn't a meltdown, like um, just going up to the meltdown,

1261
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: and I think everyone could have taken with a bit

1262
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 1: of a laugh. You know, you know who our next

1263
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: guess should be for need of fourth ogilvie. How good

1264
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: was that? That's a perfect answer. That was eight plus.

1265
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 1: That's right, all right? Well, as I said, we've kind

1266
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 1: of thought of these uh these need to force and

1267
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,759
Speaker 1: bunches and we're gonna take a little a little break

1268
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 1: but and retrench. But it's been an absolute pleasure and

1269
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 1: a joy podcast with both of you guys, and really

1270
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 1: fun slate of guests, and this was an experiment. We

1271
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,560
Speaker 1: don't know how it was going to work, and I

1272
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 1: would I don't want to presumptuous and speak for the listeners,

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01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 1: but I know for us, it's been really fun and

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Speaker 1: I've enjoyed both of you guys immensely, so I just

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Speaker 1: want to put that out there. Good Thomas on the season, Tae, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: all right. That was Hail Irwin and Jeff Ogilvie and

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Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger. I'm Alan chef Nick. Thanks is always for

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Speaker 1: listening and that was needed for Oh my god, it's

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Speaker 1: a dangerous group here.