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Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're

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Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight

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Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Hello and everyone,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to SOFTWAREP Radio. I'man host today Steve Belstry.

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Speaker 1: We have a great guest on the line with us today.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking very shortly to Jay Dobbins. And

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Speaker 1: if you the name doesn't ring a bell when I

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Speaker 1: tell you his story, it will ring a bell. Jay

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Speaker 1: is a retired special Agent with the Alcohol, Tobacco and

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Speaker 1: Firearms a t F. He's a he's a decorated veteran,

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Speaker 1: I believe twenty seven years with the with the Bureau

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Speaker 1: over there, and he went undercover UM for for a time,

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Speaker 1: investigating the Hell's Angels motorcycle club and the West Coast,

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Speaker 1: mainly in the state of Arizona and UM. He ended

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Speaker 1: up writing a book that was a New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestseller about that. But J isn't just that, he's he's

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Speaker 1: a very very person. He grew up in India, well,

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Speaker 1: he was born in Indiana, grew up in Tucson, Arizona.

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Speaker 1: Was a All Pac ten wide receiver for Arizona UM.

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Speaker 1: He played in the Canadian Football League in the U

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Speaker 1: s FL before becoming a law enforcement agent and then

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Speaker 1: uh after that. Obviously we're gonna get into it, but

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Speaker 1: before we go any further, I want to welcome him

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Speaker 1: to our software at Radio podcast. Jake, thanks for taking

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Speaker 1: the time today. We really appreciate it. Steve, thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me on your show. And hello your audience. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: we all wanted to hear your story here today. Um yeah, so, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, growing up and and Tucson coming from Indiana,

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Speaker 1: that must have been quite a change. It was, you know,

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid. Um, my life started in

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Speaker 1: northwest Indiana, just outside Chicago. Uh, you know, I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a blue college family. My dad was a carpenter,

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Speaker 1: my mom was a house player. Um, and moved us

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Speaker 1: to Arizona looking for work. And so Tucson is and

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Speaker 1: continues to be where I call home. Yeah, that's I

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Speaker 1: mean Arizona. I've never spent a lot of time there.

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Speaker 1: When I was still in the military, we used to

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Speaker 1: train in Arizona on occasion, but I've never spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time. We have some friends of our family

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Speaker 1: that live in the Scottsdale area, and I would love

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Speaker 1: to go there and and spend more time just mostly

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Speaker 1: just passing through on the way to California. But I

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Speaker 1: would like to go back when you come back coming

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Speaker 1: the winner, because we had a miserable summer. We had

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Speaker 1: a four hundred consecutive days over a hundred degrees. You

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Speaker 1: were a kid in the one tense and that's so

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Speaker 1: come visit in January. Yeah, that's um. That seems to

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Speaker 1: be the the consensus of people I've talked through there. Um.

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Speaker 1: So after you graduated high school, you went to UH,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Arizona was part of the Wildcats, and

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Speaker 1: you were a part of the All Century Football team,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, and then you went on to the

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Speaker 1: USFL and briefly the Canadian Football League. Did you have

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Speaker 1: dreams when you were a kid of playing in in

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Speaker 1: UH as a professional football player? You know, I did

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Speaker 1: any success I had or notoriety I received as an athlete,

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Speaker 1: I'll be quite honest with for you, which not really

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Speaker 1: do so much to skill. It was more how I

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Speaker 1: played the game. I played the game very recklessly. I

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Speaker 1: played it as violently as I could, I played it

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Speaker 1: as aggressively as I could. UM. I always dreamed of

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Speaker 1: going to the NFL. I got invited to the main

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Speaker 1: ten for NFL combin you know which, for your football

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Speaker 1: fans who are not familiar with what that is, it's

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Speaker 1: basically the NFL's meat market where they test drive prospects

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Speaker 1: to see if they're drafted, all with their want wanted

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Speaker 1: that player to be a part of the organization. And

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Speaker 1: I found out real quick that I probably was not

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Speaker 1: going to be a professional football player, or if I was,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going to last very long because I did

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Speaker 1: everything I could to prepare myself and to be at

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Speaker 1: my best, but I just athletically was uh put it

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Speaker 1: up to play at least for any length of time

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Speaker 1: on that level. Well, I mean you you made it

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Speaker 1: to the CFL and the USFLS and that's more than

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Speaker 1: uh of us who played high school football I've ever

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Speaker 1: got too. So uh, that's awesome. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and when you especially when you look at it today,

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Speaker 1: and I cover the NFL for another website, so I

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Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: the combine um today. The kids that are coming out

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Speaker 1: today are so athletically ridiculous, it's crazy. You see, guys, away,

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Speaker 1: you know, almost three hundred pounds, and they're so athletic today.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing the how athletes have just gotten better and

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Speaker 1: better as we go along. Well, you know, Steve, it's

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Speaker 1: I'm not an excuse gay and uh and I know

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Speaker 1: in your world and in the audience that that listens

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Speaker 1: to your show, Excuses don't go over re over, And

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Speaker 1: so like me athletically, I did every single thing I

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Speaker 1: could um to play professional football. I can't fall back

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Speaker 1: on saying like, oh, well, I hurt my need, my

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Speaker 1: I hurt my back, I hurt my shoulder, the coach

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Speaker 1: didn't like me. I don't have any excuses I did.

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Speaker 1: I prepared myself mentally and physically and emotionally, and and

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Speaker 1: was that my best? And I just wasn't good enough.

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Speaker 1: And for any of us, if we do the very

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Speaker 1: best we can at something, even when we fall short

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Speaker 1: of what our objective is, if you've been looking the

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Speaker 1: mirror and say, man, I didn't have anything left that

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Speaker 1: was my best, you can find satisfaction in that. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I remember a couple of years ago, UM during training camp,

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Speaker 1: I was sitting in one of Bill Belichick's UM press conferences.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of going off on a tangon here, but

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Speaker 1: you know he was talking about guys who give it,

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Speaker 1: they're all in. He was like the toughest part of

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Speaker 1: his job it was the fact that some guy who

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Speaker 1: came in and just couldn't meet what they were looking for,

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Speaker 1: but gave it everything he absolutely had. That was the

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Speaker 1: toughest part of his job, was telling the guy that

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Speaker 1: he was getting cut. And the regardless of of what

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Speaker 1: world or environment that we operated, any of us can

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Speaker 1: admire that in people. I think what's frustrating is when

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Speaker 1: you see someone that has talent or has God given

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Speaker 1: ability and then doesn't capitalize on it. That's really frustrated

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Speaker 1: when you're the guys struggling to keep up with the

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Speaker 1: guy who has all those gifts but doesn't take a

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Speaker 1: manage of Exactly. So, after that you became a federal

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Speaker 1: law enforcement agent. Was this something you had your eye

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Speaker 1: on down the road or did this just kind of

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Speaker 1: come up on you? You know, it wasn't like I

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Speaker 1: didn't have some long term plan B to become a

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Speaker 1: law enforcement officer. Uh, you know, when I realized that

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going to be a football player, I had

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Speaker 1: to invent a plan B I was. I never really had.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a plan B guy. I usually set my

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Speaker 1: sights on something and then go all in um. But

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Speaker 1: but I had to. I was forced to develop a

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Speaker 1: plan b um and as hokey as it sounds at

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Speaker 1: the time when I'm trying to figure out, like Jay,

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Speaker 1: what's next. The television show Miami Vice was very popular.

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Speaker 1: This was mid eighties and as an audience, but we

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Speaker 1: had never seen a cop show like that. Everything that

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Speaker 1: we had seen before was very procedural. It was detectives

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Speaker 1: in suits and ties responding the crime of scenes or

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Speaker 1: uniform officers in patrol cars. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: Miami Vice shows up and Sunny Crockett's wearing his Hugo

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Speaker 1: Boss suit and he's driving a Lamborghini around South Beach

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Speaker 1: and he's negotiating for not highest Um and he's in

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Speaker 1: this other cover role and I was like, man, you

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Speaker 1: know what that really sounds exciting. I think I can

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Speaker 1: do that. You know, it's funny you mentioned that last week.

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Speaker 1: I did a podcast with the two D e A

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Speaker 1: guys that went down and we're hunting Pablo Escobar, and

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Speaker 1: one of them, Steve Murphy, was said almost the same

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Speaker 1: thing you just did. When he got assigned to the

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Speaker 1: right after he became part of d e A. He

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Speaker 1: got as signed to Miami, and it was during that

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Speaker 1: that same time frame, and he was like Sonny Crockett

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Speaker 1: was like the guy you know, I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: Sunny Crockett. So you were down there, you know at

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Speaker 1: that time, you know, in Columbia was producing massive amounts

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Speaker 1: of cocaine and and bringing him into South Florida. Those

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Speaker 1: of the days of the cocaine cowboys down there, and man,

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Speaker 1: those guys they have my highest innabiration, right And uh,

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Speaker 1: you know I read about when you first became a

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Speaker 1: special agent of a t F. You were only on

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Speaker 1: the job about a week and you got taken hostage

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Speaker 1: and shot during an a vest arrest warrant. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: on a on an operation. I guess from was it

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Speaker 1: a convicted felon or somebody who just got out of

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Speaker 1: jail or was it somebody who was on his way? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did. I got off to a rough start. Man.

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Speaker 1: I got hired than on Monday. I got sworn in

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Speaker 1: four days later on a Thursday. Um, I got taken

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Speaker 1: hostage on it in an arrest scenario. Um, I was

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Speaker 1: shot by the suspect in the back, point blank between

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Speaker 1: my shoulder blade and my spine, and the bullet traveled

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Speaker 1: through my own narrowly missed my heart. It exited my chest. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, in four days on the job, I was

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Speaker 1: laying in the dirt and dogship have a trail park

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Speaker 1: with blood coming out of my chest like you're holding

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Speaker 1: your thumble at the end of the garden notes, you know,

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Speaker 1: leading to that, and I think now, you know, many

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Speaker 1: years later, I looked back at that with a smile

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Speaker 1: on my face, knowing that only four days on the job,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't even gotten a paycheck camp, I hadn't been

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Speaker 1: paid yet, and I was dying. Um in that trailer boat.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. And I read this somewhere that the doctor

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Speaker 1: who did the emergency surgery on you, Dr Richard Carmona,

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Speaker 1: was the and later became the surgeon General in the

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Speaker 1: United States. You know, he's an amazing man. He'd actually

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Speaker 1: be a great guest for your show. He's he's interesting,

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Speaker 1: he's brilliant, he's got one of a kind of story.

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Speaker 1: And it was just one of God's blessings, you know,

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Speaker 1: that that God had his hand on my shoulder and

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Speaker 1: put me in the path of Dr Carmona, who was

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Speaker 1: running the trauma services here in Tucson before he had

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Speaker 1: gained you know, much as a notabi any he has.

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Speaker 1: Now I know people in your in your SF unity

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Speaker 1: will be familiar with Dr Carmelina because he's very involved

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Speaker 1: in Napolo too. But you know, he was in Green

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Speaker 1: by a medic h high school dropout who became you know,

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Speaker 1: uh green Bory medic put himself through medical school, became

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Speaker 1: a world renowned trauma surgeon. At the same time he

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Speaker 1: was running the trauma program you're in Tucson. He was

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Speaker 1: also a member of the Peter County UH Sheriff's Department

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Speaker 1: at a part of their tactical unit, one of their

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Speaker 1: SWAT team members, and then uh was involved in in

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Speaker 1: several high profile search and rescue incidents, several high profile

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Speaker 1: shooting incidents UM and then ultimately yes, became the United

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Speaker 1: States Surgeon General under President Bush. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody was smiling on you on a bad day where

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Speaker 1: at least you had him, uh, you know, being there

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Speaker 1: for you when you get pulled at a hospital how

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Speaker 1: long did that recovery take for you and what kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, rehabilitation did it take to get back

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Speaker 1: in the line of duty. Well, you know, at that

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Speaker 1: point in my life, I was twenty six years old.

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Speaker 1: I was in really amazing shape, um, you know, a

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Speaker 1: fresh off of football career, and my fitness level was

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Speaker 1: was very high. I recovered, Uh, man, I've recovered pretty quickly,

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Speaker 1: to be honest with you, UM, I forced myself back

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Speaker 1: on the job probably too soon. Um. After about maybe

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Speaker 1: three weeks after the shooting. UM, I showed back up

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Speaker 1: at work and my boss was like, what are you doing.

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Speaker 1: Don't you understand how it work? Cop works? Like you

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Speaker 1: have ninety days before anyone's even gonna ask a question.

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Speaker 1: You've been out three weeks. But I was so pissed

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Speaker 1: off and frustrated by the by by my failure in

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Speaker 1: at events, I couldn't wait to get back and try

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Speaker 1: again and see if I would do it right the

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Speaker 1: next time. Now. Were you married at this time or

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Speaker 1: were you still single then? I was. I was married,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I've as as many of your audience

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Speaker 1: and listeners will will attest themselves, people that that that

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Speaker 1: lived the life we have really they do that many

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Speaker 1: of our our successful long term and that because of

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Speaker 1: the base that they have at home, and I have

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Speaker 1: a truly amazing family. Yeah, because I didn't know how

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Speaker 1: your wife would react to you being on the job

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Speaker 1: four days and then being critically shot and wounded. You

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Speaker 1: can imagine that didn't go over real well, No, because

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Speaker 1: I was actually I had some notes this morning. I

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Speaker 1: was reading them and my wife was reading over my

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Speaker 1: shoulder and she's like, if that happened to you on

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Speaker 1: the and now she was a Special Forces wife, but

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Speaker 1: she said, if that happened to you on day four,

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Speaker 1: I had big be telling you to pull pitch. I

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Speaker 1: had that, you know, I had opportunities to leave good ones.

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Speaker 1: Um when you know, after I was shot, I had

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Speaker 1: attorneys that were lobbying for me to allow them to

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Speaker 1: take the case to get a retirement for me. And

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Speaker 1: I mean they were talking generational type line millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars because I was to be honest, because yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was placed in a situation that I wasn't prepared for,

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Speaker 1: trained for, um equipped for any of those things, and

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Speaker 1: and that that event had created quite a bit of

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Speaker 1: linability for the ages, and they very likely would have

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Speaker 1: hey a lot of money to make my story go

250
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Speaker 1: away and made me vanish. But um, and I was,

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Speaker 1: like I said when I was young, money was was

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Speaker 1: and and still does not hold a great amount of

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Speaker 1: value or drive or motivation for me. Uh. Any of

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Speaker 1: the people in the worlds that we operated, Um, they

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Speaker 1: don't take those jobs for money thinking that they're going

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Speaker 1: to be a richer famous. They take them for for

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Speaker 1: other reasons, reasons that you know, where we want to

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Speaker 1: impact that really or good, not because we want to

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Speaker 1: impact our bank accounts exactly. And I read that you

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Speaker 1: conducted over five hundred undercover operations after obviously you were

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Speaker 1: back on duty, and you took part in quite a

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Speaker 1: few famous ones, the Rodney King riots, um, the Columbine

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Speaker 1: Columbine High School in Colorado, the bombing in Oklahoma City,

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Speaker 1: and the branch the Videans in Waco. And that was

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Speaker 1: the one I wanted to ask you about, was the

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Speaker 1: the branch the Vidians, because we heard so many different

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Speaker 1: stories about how this went down, and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you can discuss any of it now,

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Speaker 1: but we heard so many different things about the branch

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Speaker 1: Davidians and David Koresh and then I was wondering if

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Speaker 1: you could shed any light on any of this for us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was amazing at s special agents ben

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Speaker 1: and women who attempted to raid that compound in February

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Speaker 1: of Um. They were there legally, they were they were

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Speaker 1: there properly, morally and ethically to be there. Um they

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Speaker 1: walked into uh an ambush. There were there were mistakes made.

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Speaker 1: There were tactical mistakes made. Those have been admitted. They're obvious.

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Speaker 1: Some of them. Four agents were killed, you know, dozens

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Speaker 1: of others will shoot up in the firefight. UM. Part

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Speaker 1: of the law enforcement really had not seen h a

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Speaker 1: violent event like that at that time. A lot of

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Speaker 1: heroic agents did a lot of heroic things that day.

283
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Speaker 1: And but yes, you know, there were there were stakes made,

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Speaker 1: and there were flaws in the planning and the execution

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Speaker 1: of it, and you know, as happens, many times, people

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Speaker 1: lost their lives behind it and because of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I remember I was overseas at the time

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Speaker 1: and we were watching it unfold on TV from a distance,

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Speaker 1: and I mean it just seemed I mean, it didn't

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Speaker 1: seem like we were looking at something that was taking

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Speaker 1: place in the United States, if that makes any sense.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it seemed like we would never see this

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Speaker 1: what we were watching unfold happened in our country, but

294
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Speaker 1: obviously it did, and uh it was such a shame.

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Speaker 1: Later on all the kids ended up dying, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the fire, and you know, um, it's just one

297
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Speaker 1: of those bad things that happened in our country that

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Speaker 1: we wish we could a race again. You were involved

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Speaker 1: with Columbine and the mirror Federal Building in Oklahoma City,

300
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Speaker 1: which that was horrible. Again I was I remember watching

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Speaker 1: that from a distance. You know, there's there's events that

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Speaker 1: take place, uh within our country where we we tend

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Speaker 1: to think that evil like that exists outside of our

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Speaker 1: wars um, and every so often we're reminded that it's

305
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 1: right here at home as well, exactly, And uh, that

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00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,280
Speaker 1: will bring us to you know, the Operation Black Biscuit,

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Speaker 1: where yourself and other members of the A t F

308
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 1: infiltrated the Hell's Angels motorcycle club and um, some other

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Speaker 1: organizations as well. How did this come about? Well, it

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Speaker 1: was actually inspired by the Hell's Angels and the violence

311
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Speaker 1: that were surrounding them, you know themselves. They were operating

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Speaker 1: for the most part with impunity, they didn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of people looking at investigating. Really what kicked it

314
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Speaker 1: off full bore um what we had, we had begun

315
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Speaker 1: the operation, but really what set it off was there

316
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Speaker 1: was a riot that took place in a Mufflin, Nevada

317
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Speaker 1: casino in two thousand two between the Hell's Angels and

318
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Speaker 1: the rival motorcycle ganging the models. And that riot was

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Speaker 1: captured on you know, hundreds of casino close circuit television

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Speaker 1: cameras and then rebroadcast, you know, the next day on

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Speaker 1: the six o'clock news, and you know, a firefight like

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Speaker 1: that and stabbings and beatings that took place, you know,

323
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Speaker 1: in a public a new with civilians exposed to it

324
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 1: really kicked our operation in gear and solidify our mission

325
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 1: that we had to do something about this. So were

326
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: you assigned to that or did you volunteer for this one?

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Speaker 1: You know what in in the as an undercover operator,

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00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: like really you're always you're always volunteer that, Like, no

329
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Speaker 1: one makes you taken undercover assignment. Um that they can't

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Speaker 1: force that I need um probably maybe maybe a good

331
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Speaker 1: side to my personality or character training or maybe a

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00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 1: bad side you know, it depends on how you look

333
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 1: at it is that I was never the best undercover operator.

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00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: I was never the best copper detective. You know, I

335
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: know dozens who I view be better than me in

336
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: almost as of investigation. I was just always willing. I

337
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: was always willing in the truck. I always raised my

338
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 1: hand and accepted assignments that other people didn't want for

339
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 1: various reasons, whether they were too dangerous, too complex. Uh.

340
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 1: You know, you know those impossible cases. I was always

341
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: willing to try. UM. And so, to give you a

342
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: long answer to a short question, I was recruited into

343
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Speaker 1: that operation. It was volunteering. No one twisted my arm

344
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Speaker 1: or held a gun to my head and said, well,

345
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, I'll tell you. I spoke with another one

346
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 1: of the guys who worked with you undercover last night. UH.

347
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: I worked with him in Mexico, and he he had

348
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: some great things to say about you. And when we

349
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: were talking, actually on the phone about a military guy,

350
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: and we were both commenting and that this guy was

351
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: harder than Woodpecker lips as as we said. And then

352
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: I told him I was getting ready to interview you

353
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: because I had been UH a visitor to his home

354
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: in Mexico City while we were working down there, and

355
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: I had seen some of the pictures that he was

356
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: involved in this to Carlos Canino, and Carlos had some

357
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 1: great things to say about it. He told me in

358
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 1: no in certain terms, he was like, Steve Day is

359
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 1: the real deal. When you're talking about undercover guys and

360
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 1: guys who are willing to go to to the absolute

361
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: limit and put their lives on the line, He's the

362
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: real deal. So well, you know, that's that's nice to hear.

363
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: That's uh moost kind words from someone that you've worked

364
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: alongside and respect Um that you put your life on

365
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: the line alongside. Those are always flattering words to hear.

366
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 1: I could say and do say the exact same things

367
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: about Carlos. He was critical to our success. Um. Carlos

368
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: was a guy as an operator in the intercur world

369
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: that everybody loved Carlos. You know, Carlos, everybody loves you. UM.

370
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 1: And he had this unique way of charming suspects, charming

371
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: the bad guys, and they would and not just in

372
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 1: the Health Angels case, I saw it happened many times before.

373
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: They would fall in love with it. And he would

374
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: have some of the most vile, violent, vicious, wicked people

375
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: on the planet, like doubled over in laughter. And then

376
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: when you can get someone that hard to belly laugh

377
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: with you, you're way ahead of the game. And he

378
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: was a master of it, well he did. He had

379
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 1: that same effect on people in Mexico. When we were

380
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: working down there, Carlos was my contact. I was trying

381
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: to keep a bunch of Hollywood people from running a

382
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: muck while they were filming a a drug costel movie

383
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: down there, and they were always trying to go in

384
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: areas that we probably shouldn't have gone in. And uh,

385
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: Carlos was my contact because he tells every day I

386
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: call him on the phone and say, Hey, we're gonna

387
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: be working down here today, and he'd be like, don't

388
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: go down there. And then the Mexican cops they had,

389
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: the Mexican cops loved him and and he had he

390
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: had that that that effect on everybody and he totally

391
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: the unit is. Yeah, it was really The key to

392
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: his success is that he's a very likable man. And

393
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, especially in an undercoverable West Side of

394
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 1: the lawyer on um you like it, and we like

395
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: to surround ourselves with people that we enjoy it because

396
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 1: we find comfortable them. And Carlos was the master of

397
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: making people comfortable and gaining their trust, in gaining their

398
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: confidence and building their loyalty, in some cases building their love.

399
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: Um wild investigating a case that very very few people

400
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: can do it, and very few people have ever done

401
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: into the level of Carlos has. Yeah, he told me

402
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: YouTube were involved in at the very beginning of this

403
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: operation and buying weapons from one of the suspects. Yeah,

404
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: and and repeated that over and over. And it's I E.

405
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: S U and narcotics. And you know, uh, I think

406
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: Carlos would probably be the first to tell you that

407
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: neither he or I was a master motorcycle writer. And

408
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: we're writing with some of the best big bike motorcycle

409
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: writers you know on the planet, and trying to keep

410
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: up with those guys and and and stay and roll

411
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: and maintain the bluff, you know, white knuckle writing with

412
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: these guys that you know at the pace and speed

413
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: and styled and write at There were times when when

414
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: me and Carlos were good up a run and just

415
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: look at each other with those dear eyes, like, man,

416
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: how did we get through that, just that just to live, Ludlon.

417
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: Now approaching these people and and trying to get inside

418
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: of your criminal schemes, how difficult was that breaking into that?

419
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine that they're very welcoming to

420
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: anyone who's a stranger. Yeah, you know, these guys aren't

421
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: guys that you, you know, walk up and knock on

422
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: the clubhouse store and ask for an application. Uh. It

423
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: takes time, like anything, like any relationship, it just takes time.

424
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: You build trust, loyalty, confidence, all those things. Those things

425
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: come with spending extended amount of time around people, so

426
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: they get to know you, you get to know them. Um,

427
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: they're constantly testing you as a new guy, as as

428
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: a as a group of unknown people. Everything you do

429
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: and say is being scrudent. Every word that comes out

430
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: of your mouth. How you walk, how you talk, the

431
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: card you druve, the motorcycle you have, how you write

432
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: it to close? You? Where, who you associated with? How

433
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: do you speak to people? Where you live? What the

434
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: conditioning of your house? Every being looked at to see

435
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: if they can find a cheap in your armor. Because

436
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: they survived through paradid they have to be paraded that

437
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: is how they stay out of prison is by not

438
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: trusting people. And so you're constantly every day with every

439
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: element and aspect of what you're doing, you're trying to

440
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: proove yourself. How difficult is that mentally? Trying to maintain

441
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: something like that When you're talking mentally, you have to

442
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: stay in that role. You have to be basically a

443
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 1: motorcycle club member at this point, you're not You're not

444
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: an a t f age and you can't just turn

445
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: it off at five o'clock. I mean, this is like

446
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: a twenty four hour a day job for however long.

447
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: I think it was almost about two years that you

448
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: did this. Yeah, it's it's super challenging to be on

449
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: the point twenty four hours a day, um, NonStop, while

450
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: you're living a fictitious life and and and presenting yourself

451
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: to be someone other than who you are. Um. Like really,

452
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: I think a very demonstrious story of that is I

453
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: came home one day after being gone for an extending

454
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: period of time and my wife told me, you cannot

455
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: be gone for once at a time and then walk

456
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: into this house and treat me and your kids like

457
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: we're suspects on the street. You can't talk to us Saturday.

458
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: And then in my self defense, I told her, now,

459
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: I'm not a light switch. I can't turn this person

460
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: on and off has to stay up and was well,

461
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: when you come to this house, you better install a

462
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: dimmer into that light switch and turn that attitude down.

463
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: And if you can't, don't come up. That's tough. I

464
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: mean that that. I can't imagine the pressure that you're

465
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: under and trying to live that kind of a lifestyle.

466
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: That's so obviously, you know, in contrast to what you

467
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: you would be it back excuse me back at home? UM.

468
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: I've read it in the excerpt of the book that

469
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: one of the ways that you guys UM earned the

470
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: trust was faking a murder of UM rival club member.

471
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: It was a very aggressive, tactical decision, very aggrestive, investigated

472
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: decision that we made early on in the investigation, when

473
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: we first started associated and getting to know members of

474
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: the Hell's Annuals. Presented a very simple question to him,

475
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: knowing that they were at war with the models. We asked,

476
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: what happens if I crossed paths for the model? What? Like,

477
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: where are my instructions? The answer was, it's your job

478
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: to kill him. We killed models. So fast forward two

479
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: years into the case. You know, we had held onto

480
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: that information and at the very end of the case,

481
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: we presented the Hell's Angels with a plan to murder

482
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: a mongol um in Mexico, which is basically what we did.

483
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: We found a mongel we um, doug a shallow grave,

484
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: duct taped his hands and his feet, threw him the glade,

485
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: and the grave beat him with a baseball bat and

486
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: shot him in the head. Then took evidence of that

487
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: murder and pictures of that murder, and came back and

488
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: delivered like real time visual evidence of all had done

489
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: to the House Angels. They went all in. They entirely

490
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: believed it. They embraced us. They you know, they they

491
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: awared us membership in the game. What they did realize

492
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: is that it was a street theater, It was a

493
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: giant hoax, It was counterfeit. We had taken a member

494
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: of our task force, dressed them up in the best

495
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: of a model. We had used blood and meat parts

496
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: that we got from a butcher, and we used a

497
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: homicide detective to create this fictitious homicide scene for us.

498
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: Then we delivered all that with a very elaborate, detailed,

499
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: believable story and so yes, in order to push ourselves

500
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: over the top, we convinced murderers that we had convinced

501
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: that we hadn't committed a murder on their behalf. And

502
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: after that, obviously then the trust factor was there amongst

503
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: them for you yes, and and you know we had

504
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: we had committed the ultimate act of dedication and loyalty

505
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: to them. What was very frustrating was the fact at

506
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: the end of the case, where we had climbed that mountain,

507
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: the risk that was being presented daily on the undercover

508
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: team was so immense and it was so much out

509
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: of control that the people managing and supervising the case

510
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: were no longer comfortable in allowing us to maintain that

511
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: cover and stay in roll. So right when we got

512
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: to the point where we really could have done, you know,

513
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: some incredible damage to the organization, we were pulled out

514
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: and the case was brought down. You know, in my opinion,

515
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: and at that time prematurely. In hindsight, now that I've

516
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: had a chance to step back and reflect, the people

517
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: that closed it probably saved my life because I was

518
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: not capable of saving my own life or thinking clearly

519
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: at that point in time. And then you know, once

520
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: they obviously pulled the pin on this and they conducted

521
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: some raids on on their various clubhouses and arrested a

522
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: bunch of people. Now you have to testify right in

523
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: in court. You know, that's the beauty of of America.

524
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of where we live and why we

525
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: live in the greatest country and serve under the greatest government.

526
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: You know the world has ever known, is that the

527
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: accused have the ability to face and question their accusers

528
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: um and that's you know that, that's that that's a

529
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: core element to our justice system. So yes, all those

530
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: things that we said and did during that two year investigation,

531
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: we're open for screwdy from the Health Angeles defense attorneys.

532
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: And how many of them ended up going to prison

533
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: for this, There's quite a few. I remember they got

534
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: arrested from watching the news at the time. Yeah, we

535
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: indicted I believe members and associates. I think sixteen of

536
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: them were indicted on RICO charges. A couple of them

537
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: were um murder suspects that were death penalty candidates. M hm.

538
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: Very much to a to a frustrating uh aspect for me,

539
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 1: is that when the case was turned over to the prosecutors,

540
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 1: the prosecutors and the case agents and the agency could

541
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: not agree on how they were going to deliver the

542
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: case into the corporom, and the internal argument started within

543
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: d O J I'm a good guy, decided that ultimately

544
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: weakened our prosecution. Um, we did not get the prosecutions

545
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: that we hope for. That I believe we earned that

546
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: we deserved. Um. There were deals cut, deals cut, there

547
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,439
Speaker 1: were charges dismissed. But what what was frustrating is those

548
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: deals were not cut behind anything other than a stellar investigation.

549
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: That investigation is every bit as prosecutable and winnable today

550
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: as it was in July of two thousand three, based

551
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: on evidence, agent testimony, UM, electronic recordings, UH, thousands of

552
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: hours of electronic criminal recordings, UM. Everything you can imagine.

553
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: But what's very frustrating as an investigator is to see

554
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: something that you put so much effort in time into

555
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: kind of crumble before your eyes, but it's out of

556
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: your hands and there's nothing you can do about it,

557
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: and you just have to accept the h Yeah, it

558
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: must have been frustrating. I mean for for you guys

559
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: who risked so much to see it kind of not

560
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: get to the level that you were looking for. Well,

561
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: you know what, as happens many times in many areas

562
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: of the government machine, the men and women with their

563
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: boots on the ground are often overridden um by people

564
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: that wear neckties and compling store. Yeah. Yeah, as a

565
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: military guy, I can sympathize with that. UM. I've also

566
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 1: read that after your investigation was over, obviously the Hell's

567
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: Angels and other organizations such as the MS thirteen and

568
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: Arian Brotherhood, we're you know, putting death threats on you.

569
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: I was this all related to the same or different cases?

570
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: It was? It was you know, there were murder contracts

571
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: to be an issue. There were threats against my family.

572
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: The Angels had farmed contracts to the Arian Brotherhood in

573
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: the MS thirteen s l A Street gangs. Um. And

574
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: you know, there were threats to kidnap and torture my

575
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: teenage daughter. There were threats to kidnap my my adolescent

576
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: son off the school of US. There were threats to

577
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: kidnapp and gang rape my wife. Um. There were threats,

578
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, all verified, credible, documented threats where they were

579
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: planning to try to expose me to the AIDS virus

580
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: um like all kinds of wicked payback um. But you know,

581
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: like in reality, none of that really shocked me. That

582
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: might not be an entirely accurate statement. It shocked me

583
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: to the extent and to the scope that the threats went,

584
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: that they actually were threatening to uh injurr harm murder

585
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: members of my family. But threats didn't shock me. And

586
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: that you never change the tigers strikes. If you're gonna

587
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: associate and involve yourself and investigate violent people, do you

588
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: all of a sudden think that that's gonna turn off

589
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 1: when they find out who you are. It's just who

590
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: they are, it's what they do. So that was a

591
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: very very difficult, very perilous time, you know, in my

592
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: life and in my family's life. But you know, we've

593
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: we've we've come out the other end of that, hopefully

594
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 1: come out of it better, stronger, and you know, as

595
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: as dramatic and traumatic as it was for all of

596
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: us at the time, you know now in hindsight, and

597
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: I wouldn't change anything, I really wouldn't. And then, uh,

598
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: I know there was an issue with with the a

599
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 1: t F itself, with you know, withdraw or in your

600
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: protective countermeasures and you're you know, you're protecting your identity

601
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: and there was an actual firebombing of your home. Well yeah,

602
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: that was you know, um, part of that, that that

603
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: dark period that I was telling me about post investigation,

604
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: that you know, I issued complaints that I didn't feel

605
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: like the threats were being in I felt like they

606
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: were being ignored and brushed under the rugget to some point. Um.

607
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: When I complained to a t F, UM doubled down.

608
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: They exposed, you know, all the cobrat documents that I

609
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 1: had used to you know, conceal my identity and conceal

610
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: my residence. Um, my house was was arson and uh,

611
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: no one you know, my bother to care or do

612
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 1: anything about it. It was almost like at least certain

613
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: elements of the agency, certain high level executives and agency

614
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: like found some satisfaction and the fact that the retaliation

615
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: against me had risen to that level. But it goes

616
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: back to my statement earlier, UM, and I said this

617
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: publicly and privately many times. I love a TM, I

618
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: love my agency. I love the men and women with

619
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: their boots on the ground, who are you know, out

620
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: there doing the very best they can to investigate violent crime.

621
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: You know, on behalf of all the rest of us.

622
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: But there is a handful of people, or was at

623
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: least at that time. You know that we're neckties and

624
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: complies to work that decided they know better, and m

625
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: I ran into a perfect storm of incompetence. M hm,

626
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: that's stuff. I mean, especially after you know all of

627
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: you had been through. Is that what made you, ultimately

628
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine to write the book? You know

629
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: that was part of it. UM like a t F

630
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: and said we can't help you, We can't protect you,

631
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: nor do we really intend to or even intend to try. UM.

632
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: I had high level executives tell me you're on your own.

633
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: You need to understand that you are on your own.

634
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: So a big motivation in writing No Angel was Okay,

635
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: I'm on my own. I'm a I'm a man out

636
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: here on an island with limited resources. What do I do?

637
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: And I felt like, you know what, I'm gonna hide

638
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: in plain sight. I don't have the resources to run

639
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,959
Speaker 1: and hide it on my own, but I can't draw

640
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: enough attention to what happened so that if anything bad

641
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: at is, if any harm comes to me or my

642
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: family or at least intended on. Maybe the people that

643
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: are planning it will stop and pause and realize that

644
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: that they will ultimately be the prime suspects in anything bad.

645
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: But I am That was Whether that reasoning was flawed

646
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: or illogical, or you know whatever, any individual's opinion of

647
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 1: that strategy might be, that that's that's what I did.

648
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: You know, it was it difficult putting it all back,

649
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: your memories back in writing the book. It is, it was.

650
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: It's hard. It's extremely hard to write about yourself. UM.

651
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: When I when I wrote the book, I did my

652
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: very best to honor and flatter the people that I

653
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: worked with and worked alongside. And I also did my

654
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: very best to be honest with myself about who I was,

655
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: my mistakes, my failures, my regrets. I don't I don't

656
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: think anybody that reads No Angel will come away from

657
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: it saying like, oh, this is just another hero story. UM.

658
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: A lot of people read it, and I've gotten messages

659
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: from people saying like, man, I don't like you. I

660
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: don't like who you were and what you did. And

661
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: I did that. Um. I knew that that would be

662
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: the case when I wrote the book, But I wasn't

663
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: going to sign my name to something that was some

664
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: flowery like pat myself on the back love story without

665
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: it being accurate and authent interesting. And then what year

666
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: did you retire from a t F. I retired and

667
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: only God's two thousand and sixteen, I believe. So you

668
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: wrote this while you were still a member of a

669
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: t F, and obviously several more years passed before you

670
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: have finally retired. And you can imagine how when you're

671
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: already in a legal dispute with your agency and the

672
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: Department of Justice and the new release and unapproved book

673
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: with an unauthorized managed tript um, you can imagine how

674
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: that would out work. Yes, I can. I don't have

675
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: to imagine very hard on that one. That's gotta be. Yeah.

676
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: The frustrating thing is that a t F said you're

677
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: on your own to defend yourself. You're on your own

678
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: to protect yourself. And then when I took the steps

679
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: to protect myself by writing my book, then they were

680
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: piste off about the way that I decided to protect

681
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: myself after I was told you're going to protect yourself,

682
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: So they tricked back me good um, but it is

683
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: what it is, like, I wold no hard feelings I

684
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: live a happy life. I laugh and smile every day.

685
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm not burning for anybody. There's people that you know,

686
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: in the intended harm on me. There's people within my

687
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: own agency who did everything they put to see me

688
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: burned down. UM, not one day goes by where I

689
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: wish any ill will on any of those people. It's

690
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: just I. UM. To be able to forgive and move

691
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: forward and and live a happy life is truly my

692
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: best pay. There you go, and I know you appeared

693
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: in several documentaries on television. Um, you even appeared in

694
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: a couple of feature films as well. I did. I. UM,

695
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, through the notoriety of this case in my book,

696
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: got some attention. UM, probably undeserved attention. Quite honestly. There's

697
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: a whole lot of people that I worked with and

698
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: worked alongside over the course of my career that, like

699
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 1: I said earlier, UM have my highest regard, my highest respect,

700
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: who were much better at the job than I was.

701
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: Some of the things I did created a lot of

702
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: public attention, which led to my ability to consult on

703
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: some on some films. And I had a big consulting

704
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: role in a movie that came out in two was

705
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: in a team called Na Fieves which was a cops

706
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: and Robbers movie and I was very involved in that,

707
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: had a small speaking role in it. Um But amazingly,

708
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, you think, after you know, five hundred plus

709
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: undercover operations and playing a faith false character, that I'd

710
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: be a better actor than I am a terrible actor.

711
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: I'm a terrible actor. It was funny different when you're

712
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: out there hustling and joking and smoking with the bad guys.

713
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: It's way different when you're sitting, you know, on a

714
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: movie set and there's five cameras pointing that year and

715
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: a cat and a crew behind you watching. Um what

716
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: way different environment, way harder. In my opinion. That's interesting

717
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: because I thought you were gonna tell me the opposite,

718
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: that it was an easy transition from being undercover all

719
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: the time. But I guess what, the camera's pointing at you,

720
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: and I'm the same way. I'm much more comfortable behind

721
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: it than I am and of it. And that's why

722
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: we do audio and not video on these things. Well,

723
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think what the difference is I've looked

724
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: at it like from that thirty foot perspective, is that

725
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: when you're operating undercover, you know, me and Carlos are

726
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: are running around. We're in control. We're controlling the environment

727
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 1: through what we say and what we do. We're manipulating

728
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: the environment and the suspects and positioning them. When you're

729
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: on a film set, it's the exact opposite. You have

730
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,439
Speaker 1: no control and everyone's telling you what to do, where

731
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: it the what to say, how to stand, how to look. Um,

732
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: and you have no control. Um. And I was not

733
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: nearly as comfortable being told what to do as I

734
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: was just creating on the fly. M hm, oh that

735
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: makes sense. It does. So after you're retired, Uh, you

736
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: you you own and operate your own law enforcement training group. Um.

737
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: And I understand that you're now high school football coach.

738
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: I did you know when I retired, I was actually

739
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: quite busy speaking at law enforcement seminars and conferences, and

740
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: doing some speaking in the corporate world, translating my story

741
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: into the corporate world. And then you know, doing training seminars,

742
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: you know, for cop groups and first responded groups and

743
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: then the virus kids. And that market is gone and

744
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: lightly gone for a long period of time. Um. But

745
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: even well before I retired, I was coaching my love

746
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: of football. I always had that. I never lost it

747
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: when even when I when I failed as a player,

748
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: I never lost my love in the game. UM. I

749
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: coached my kids in youth sports. UM, I was coaching

750
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: high school football. Law. I was still on the job

751
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 1: and did that for you know, fifteen years and now

752
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: I just recently, just actually last year, December of last year,

753
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: took a head coach's job at a very small school

754
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: in the northeast corner of Tucson here, a tangibod In

755
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: High School. UM, very small, out of the way school

756
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: that no one's paying much attention to, that has historically

757
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: not had much success. And so we're doing what we

758
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: can to try to change the football culture there. And

759
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: part part of way of doing that is taking all

760
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: these life experiences, um, you know, many of which we

761
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: were created on the job as a law enforcement officer,

762
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: in translating them to these young men through football to

763
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: just help them be good people and be productive and

764
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 1: and and be leaders and and and go out and

765
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: and live amazing lives. That's awesome. And UM, now in

766
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: Arizona is football season going on. Because I know, we

767
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: just moved down to Florida from mass We lived up

768
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: in Central Massachusetts in the Central mass the football programs

769
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: have been put off until February this year. Ours here

770
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: in Arizona is greatly delayed. Um, but we're about two

771
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: months behind. I actually, um, we will actually my team

772
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: will actually play our first game on November six, and

773
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: we'll have a shortened season. We'll have probably a six

774
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: game season that plays us up, you know, to close

775
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: to the Christmas holiday. But for all these kids, especially

776
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: our seniors, who are faced with no season at all,

777
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: really not all that long ago, you know, from the

778
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: from the spring to you know, even midsemer, whether they

779
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: were even going to get to play a single football

780
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: game in their season, in their senior year was highly doubtful.

781
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: So pushing it back and having a shortened season, um what,

782
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: we're just grateful we're gonna have a chance to put

783
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: our kids on the field and let everybody see what

784
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: they're tablele up. Now. That s awesome. Well, Jake, we

785
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: want to thank you for your your service to the country,

786
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: and also thank you for taking the time today, um

787
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: for joining us here on Software Radio. We really appreciate it.

788
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: And uh hopefully I will be hearing some good things

789
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: from is it Tank a Verdie high school. It is

790
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: it is. You got it pretty close. Thank you, Verdie,

791
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: Thank you Verdie. Okay, thank you for having me and

792
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 1: my best to all your audience. Much love everybody out there.

793
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: Stay safe, stay stay well, and make the best of today.

794
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: All right, and uh again, we want to thank our

795
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: guests Jay Jobbins for joining us here on Software Radio.

796
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: If you want to get softwarep on your phone, download

797
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: our free mobile app and get easy access to all

798
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: our articles, podcasts and gear reviews. They're all perfectly formatted

799
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: to your individual device. Please describe to software dot com

800
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: to get access to all our library of e books

801
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: and our exclusive team room forms and content available on

802
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: all Apple and Android devices. I said that for the

803
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: first time without screwing it up. But Jake, once again,

804
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: thanks again for joining us. We really appreciate it, and

805
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: uh let's do it again sometime. Thank you. All right, bye,

806
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,720
Speaker 1: you've been listening to self repl