WEBVTT - The Sky Didn't Fall 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.719 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:08.799 This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:22.080 I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family Secrets, the secrets 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.520 that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:33.159 and the secrets we keep from ourselves. My guest is 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.720 Sasha Mardeux. Sasha is a cartoonist and graphic novelist and 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:43.519 memoirist whose new book Past Tense is just out. Sasha's 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:48.400 is a life affirming story about carrying secrets, burying them, 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.280 being haunted by them, and then releasing them in the 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.320 fullness of time. Is an extraordinary story of a beautiful 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.480 human determined to find the help she needs to survive 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:09.200 and thrive. So, Sasha, I'm going to begin where I 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:13.720 always begin these conversations, which is, tell me about the 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.319 landscape of your childhood. Give me a sense of as 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.319 early as you can remember, who was in that landscape, 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:22.760 what did it look like, what did it feel like? 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.680 Sure, So, my parents had married very young. They had 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.000 me in nineteen seventy five and they were just barely 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.520 out of their twenties. I was born into the north 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.240 of England and there was a lot of unemployment at 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.319 that time, you know, the Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister, 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.560 and just the landscape for men had just been decimated, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.320 you know, there were no prospects. Men spent most of 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:47.240 their time in the pubs. 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:48.200 You know. 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.240 My mother was very much raising me alone, even though 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.480 she was partnered. I would say my father was like 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.680 a very immature man who never really stopped being a playboy. 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.800 Some of my first memories of him coming home from 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.920 the pub and just hitting my mom, beating my mum 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.080 who would challenge him about him smelling of perfume or 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.920 you know, being with women. So yeah, there's my earliest 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.200 memories just him being kind of brutal to my mother 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:14.560 and being absent even though he lived in the same 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.480 house as us. My mother is a very caring and 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:19.720 warm and sweet person. 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.280 Actually, most of the women in my family were. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.440 Nurses of one form or another, nurses or carers, so 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.280 very much a people pleaser kind of person. You know, 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.120 she keeps the peace by being nice and effusive. He 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.480 very intelligent woman. You know, she was well read and 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.200 was into teaching me how to read and write from 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.760 an early age, so she very much encouraged me intellectually. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.600 I remember my parents' divorce very clearly because I remember 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:48.080 Charles and Diana were getting married on the TV set 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:49.920 at Westminster Abbey as we. 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.320 Were packing up the house to go our separate ways. 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:54.799 After the divorce, I lived with my dad for a 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.120 little while and then with my mom, and there was 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.280 a lot of poverty. She ended up taking a job 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.960 as a warden in a it was like a residential 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.440 home for the elderly, and the job came with a 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.160 living apartment, and so, you know, that was a lifeline 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:09.520 for us. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:10.839 Both because we had a place to live. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.960 Before that, we were living with, you know, with my aunts, 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.399 or you know, staying with friends, that kind of thing. 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.480 My mom became the deputy warden, and another woman called 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.440 Lorraine became the main warden. 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:24.359 And she had a family. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.560 She had a husband and two children, a boy and 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:32.799 a girl, and my father would come to visit and 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.560 he and Lorraine began to have an affair and their 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:40.680 marriage fell apart. So my dad moved in with Lorraine 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.160 and became a stepfather to her two children. And the 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.240 weird thing about this was that Doug, who was the 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.080 ex husband of Lorraine, actually got together with my mom, 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.320 and so it was these two couples and you can 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.400 imagine just like the father's swapping, right, So. 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.960 I ended up with Doug as my stepdad. 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.320 And I ended up with these two half siblings, Gail 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.600 and Amon, and they started calling my dad dad, which 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.920 was very uncomfortable for me. It was my ninth birthday 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.920 when they got married, so I remember that clearly as well. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:19.280 And then your dad and Lorraine have two more children. 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.080 They will go on to have two more children, but 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.520 a lot happens in the interim, so you know, it's 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.200 kind of comical in a way to think of these 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.919 two couples who've kind of like swapped husbands, but the 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.520 reality was very very difficult to be a child like 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.200 witnessing these partnerships, you know. So my stepfather, Doug was 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.800 very upset that his two biological children were calling my 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.360 father dad, and I had to start calling Doug dad, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:51.039 which wasn't very comfortable for me. And the situation eventually 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.799 resolved when my dad and Lorraine moved like thirty miles 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:59.240 north of Manchester and it just ended the access. So 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.200 all the custod rangements fell apart and we didn't see 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:02.440 them for. 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:03.960 A couple of years. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:09.279 Little Sasha was quite a bewildered and timid kid. I 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.839 was very bookish. I would spend a lot of my 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.240 time like reading books and blowing the world out. There's 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:17.440 a line from Alice Miller in the drama of The 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.440 Gifted Child where she talks about how you can perfect 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.760 the art of not feeling your feelings in childhood, and 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.960 that's very much what I did. I just blanked out 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.240 from the weirdness of my family. You know, I didn't 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:30.800 acknowledge it. I didn't talk about it. 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.080 So very early on I became a secret keeper. 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:39.159 And obviously in my interactions with my stepsister Gail, I 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.360 had secrets there to keep as well, because she was 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.720 a very confusing and bewildering child to be around. At 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:47.960 first met when I was about seven or eight, and 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.039 she was a very different person to me. She was 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.240 Catholic and so very churchy. I remember she was very 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.080 excited about going for her first confirmation and dressing up 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:57.120 like a little bride. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.120 It was all very bewildering to me. 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.000 I'd never been so a and I think the first 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.840 time I went to a church was actually seeing her confirmation. 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:05.839 Her mother was my mum's. 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.960 Boss, and I feel like Gail adopted this attitude like 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.599 I'm your boss too, because we were thrown together for 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:16.440 a summer, and when we would play together, her games 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.680 would get very intense. And there was actually something that 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.880 happened in that summer we played together where she actually 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:27.400 played sexual bullying games on me, inspired by pornographic magazines 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.720 that her father had hidden under the mattress that she 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:32.279 would bloat and show me. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:40.080 You know, Gail isn't just showing Sasha pornographic magazines. During 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.480 this time when Gail is nine and Sasha is eight, 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:45.719 Gil molests her. 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:50.520 It was the kind of thing that I had no 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.760 language for whatsoever. You know, I knew it had to 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.280 be a secret. But even if I were to tell 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.200 a grown up what Gail had done, I wouldn't have 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:00.480 known the words to say. 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:02.480 And so it was a secret that I just pushed 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:04.279 down really, really far. 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.359 And I wouldn't tell anyone this until I was in 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.080 my forties. Actually, when I was in therapy. That was 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.120 the first half of my connection with Gail as this 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:18.400 bully somebody who intimidated me. And then she moved away, 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:21.680 you know, my dad became her dad. I felt very resentful. 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:21.720 To her for that. 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:26.280 She would call my dad dad in front of my face, 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.880 and I would just feel so jealous, you know, like 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:29.600 he's not your. 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.920 Dad, Like I'm living with your dad. It was such 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:33.200 a weird situation for a. 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.680 Child, and you know, obviously something that I never talked to. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:38.600 You know, I had friends in school, but I would 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.320 never tell them about my family's situation or how my 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.600 family came to be. It was just weird, and I 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.280 knew it back then, and it was also embarrassing, kind 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.720 of like a soap opera, you know, like a crazy 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.400 situation from a soap opera that no one would believe 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:53.120 really happened. 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.200 Did you understand that then, because you know, one of 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.480 the things that I've learned, it was in my own 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:03.360 life and hosting this podcast, is that our childhoods are 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:08.480 all we know, and there's a kind of strange but 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:13.120 very human normalizing in our minds. I think of whatever 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.600 happens in our childhood, it feels like, well, that must 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.320 be happening in everyone's childhood. It's the only world we know. 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.560 Was that the case for you or did you know 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.600 at a young age you know everything that you're describing 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.000 that it wasn't happening in other homes or in most 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.679 other homes. And in the case of Gail and these 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.600 awful sexual I mean molestation. You know, these quote unquote 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.000 games that she was playing with you, is that something 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.000 that you understood was deeply not okay? Or where do 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:43.079 you put that at the age. 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.080 Of eight, Well, these games had begun with her showing 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.600 me like secret pornography that was hidden under my then 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.960 stepfather's mattress. So is back when her, her father Doug, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.120 and Lorraine were still together, you know that she would 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.360 show me these things, and so yeah, I had a 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:00.920 sense then that the secret you know, and you would 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.959 see pornography as a child, and it's really shocking. And 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:06.719 you know, this was how I learned about sex from 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.280 these from seeing these magazines that I didn't even particularly 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:10.960 want to look at. They just made me feel hot 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.880 and embarrassed and ashamed and very trapped because like Gail 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.960 was kind of my Jaila that summer, you know, she 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:19.839 was kind of in charge of me while my mom 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:24.439 and Lorraine were working in the old People's unit taking 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:25.280 care of the old people. 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.640 So I had a sense back then that the situation 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:29.160 was weird. 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.160 And when the partners what happened, and my dad became 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:33.960 her dad and her dad became my dad. 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:35.760 Yeah, I knew it was weird. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.920 I feel like in my life and my youth as well, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.719 I've always been like drawn to people who have more traditional, 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.800 stable family situations, you know, And so I would always 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.080 compare my family life with the family life of my friends, 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.760 who would have like a mom and a dad, And yeah, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.600 I always knew that I was kind of weird and different. 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:01.480 The incidents with Gail happened, and your moms were working together, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.360 and your Lorraine was quote unquote your mom's boss, and 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.959 Gail kind of made herself the boss of you. The 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:13.640 swapping of partners had not happened yet or was in 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.319 the process of happening. Kind of during that period of time, 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:17.480 it was. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:18.440 On the brink of happening. 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.640 So Lorraine and my father were beginning their kind of 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.760 secret affair which would kind of blow up and become 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.000 a public affair. So yeah, it was like right before 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.360 that happened. So already, I mean a lot of things 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.160 were kind of happening in my life, so there was 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.120 no real time to pipe up and go hey, by 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.400 the way, Gail's playing these word games. 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.280 On me, if that makes sense, and then she becomes 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.360 your stepsister after this has. 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.200 Happened, that's right, and she would actually end up living 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.880 with us because obviously Doug was her real father. So 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.080 after an extended period of no contact, like around nineteen 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:57.160 eighty six, we get a visit from Gail's mom, Lorraine, 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.640 Like early in the winter of nineteen eighty seven, Lorraine 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.440 comes to visit my mom while I'm at school, and 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.800 Lorraine tells my mom that my father is in prison 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.440 for sexually abusing Gail. And to add to that, she 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.280 says that Gail is in a children's home because she 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:18.520 can no longer cope with her. 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:20.640 How do you find this out? 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:22.240 I find out the same day. 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.600 I come home from school and I see my mom's 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.160 face in the window and she's waiting for me, and 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.480 I know that something's off as soon as I walk 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.760 through the door, and so she sits me down in 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.800 the living room, and I remember her chain smoking like 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.520 it was a winter's day. It was a very gray 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.120 skuy outside. You know, she hadn't put the light on 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.080 in the room, and so the room got dark as 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.679 we were talking, and she would light her cigarettes from 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.040 the gas fire. While she was telling me the story 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.959 of what had happened, and she told me what Gail 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.439 had told her, which was that like in nineteen eighty six, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.560 Gale was about twelve, and she had apparently sexually matured 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.080 and she had breasts now, and she would walk around 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.720 the house and like shore t shirts. And my dad 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:04.839 was unemployed and he was kind of looking after the 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:05.960 kids during the summer. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.240 Apparently Gail would get. 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.560 In bed with my dad for cuddles after Lorraine, her 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.000 mom had gone to work, and so this had been 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.120 going on all summer, and at the end of the summer, 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.720 when Gail went back to school in nineteen eighty six, 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.000 she told the nuns at the Catholic school that she 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:27.040 went to that her stepfather had been abusing her. And 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.520 so the police came and arrested my father and he 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.680 went to trial and he got sentenced to prison. 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:35.360 Lorraine had Aimen. 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:37.920 I think he would have been about six at the time, 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:42.200 and Gail, who was turning thirteen and had had a 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.439 really difficult time apparently, and social Services in England had 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.240 stepped in and taken Gail into a children's home. And 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.400 so my mom told me all this information on that 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.600 day in February in nineteen eighty seven, and my mom 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:57.840 put it to me that Gail doesn't need to be 0:12:57.880 --> 0:12:58.640 in a children's home. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.400 She has another parent she could live with. Doug was 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:02.600 her biological father. 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:04.880 And there was a part of me that day that 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.760 felt like, my father's a monster, and if I can 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.160 help make this right and get Gail out of a 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.480 children's home, like, of course we'll do that. Of course 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.559 girls should come in love with us. And so that's 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:15.120 what happened. 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:23.720 Were you completely shocked by this information about your father 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.960 or did it feel in some way like it was 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.040 part of a trajectory, like when you talk about your 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.160 very first memories of like violence between your parents and 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.240 you talk about your father and who he was. Was 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.480 there any part of you that wasn't completely surprised or 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:42.760 was it just utterly shocking. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.760 It was definitely shocking in terms of like a feeling 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.320 of you know, sick disgust. 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:50.560 In my stomach. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:51.439 Yeah. 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.400 But the thing is I'd been living with Doug my 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.000 mom for years and they'd constantly told me that my 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:02.600 dad's no good, you know, and so this basically confirmed 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.560 this bias that they both held for Doug. My dad 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.080 was the bad guy who'd stolen his kids, right, and 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.440 now my dad was the man who'd molested his daughter, 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.000 Like of course he was a monster. I felt an 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.120 internal shame that in some way this reflected on me, 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:19.800 like I didn't want to be like my dad, and 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.400 I very much wanted my mom to see, look, Mom, 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:22.920 I'm like you. 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:23.960 I'm a good person. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.080 And so I think leaping to the aid of Gail, 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.280 even though I had my own dark history with her, 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.120 it was something I've felt compelled to do, you know, 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.720 just to kind of reclaim like I am your daughter, 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:35.720 I'm not his daughter. 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:37.160 That felt very important to me. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.760 So what was that next period of time, Like when 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.480 Gail came to live with you. 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:47.640 Things moved so fast. 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.080 I feel like my mom and I had that conversation, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.720 and I think the next weekend we met Gail and 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:59.040 her social worker in a cafe, and Gail was just 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.960 not the kid I remembered. I remember this long blonde hair, 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.240 like blue eyed, like perfect Catholic girl. 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.720 And here was this young woman. 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.520 You know, she had short cropped hair, like a full 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:14.640 eighties outfit, makeup, eyeliner. She just seems so grown up 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.240 within a few weeks she moved in, and I think 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.840 Social Services paid for like new bedding and a new 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.000 bed and we began to share a room, and in 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.280 my mind it was like, we will be teenagers together. 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.080 I think I was still eleven turning twelve. But I 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.360 felt very much like I have to hide away all 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.200 my dolls and my childish books because you know, I've 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.480 got this mature teenager moving in with us, and so 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.200 I swapped my dolls for klor of posters of the 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.240 Bangles and things like that. You know, I feel like 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.360 I tried so hard to make it fun and to 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.560 make things okay for her. I felt like, this is 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.360 the worst thing in the world that has happened to you, 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:52.720 and I want it to be okay. I want this 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.560 to work out. I was very invested in having it 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.120 work out. But it didn't take long for things to 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.600 just get like a little bit unhinged and weird. 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.000 You know. I remember she started in my school. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.840 She was the year ahead of me, and she quickly 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.320 made like a clique of friends, like the popular girls. 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.360 And I had this assumption that everything that had happened 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.920 with my dad would be a secret. We're not going 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.200 to tell people that, But one of the first things 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.400 she did was she told like all the girls she'd 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.880 made friends with at school that, you know, she was 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:25.240 a victim of sexual abuse. 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.480 And it was a little bit horrifying to. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.440 Me, Like I didn't want the shame of people knowing 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:31.840 that was my dad who'd done that. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:33.480 I didn't want people see me that way. 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.360 But also I could see that she was doing it 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.280 to be manipulative. I know that sounds harsh, but that 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.840 really was what it was. Like she was telling her 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:46.480 friends and kind of enjoying the attention, and she was saying, Oh, 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:48.400 everyone's been so nice to me, it's so great. 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:49.760 And then she told me. 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.080 A story that just felt really weird, and it was 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.040 kind of like a red flag for me. She told 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.480 me that a friend in school had heard her story 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.720 of abuse and had kind of comforted with their own 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.359 story of abuse, and this girl's mother had freaked out 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.000 and taken her to acologist to get a check up 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.760 and the ofcologist to confirm that this girl was still 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.960 a virgin. And Gail told me this story with the 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.880 kind of air of gloating, like, see, she wasn't for real, 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:16.320 like she. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:17.000 Hadn't really done it. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.479 With a man, and that story just like disturbed me 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:24.320 so much, and those moments of of antagonism and mistrust 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.720 just began to kind of grow and grow. Gail was 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.200 the kind of person who used to pull the energy 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.160 in the room, you know, no amount of attention ever 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.480 seemed enough, and she completely hogged my mother, so my 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.640 mother no longer felt available to me. I would come home, 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:41.880 you know, from school, and like maybe Gail had gotten 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.240 there before me, and Gail would be like pouring a 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.560 heart out to my mom about boys or friends or 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.400 haircuts or makeup or whatever was. 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:50.280 On her mind that day. 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.440 And I really felt resentful, like, oh, this is my mom, 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.359 but she hasn't got time for me or room for 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.880 me anymore. And so even though I had the best 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.119 intentions when Gail first moved in, it quickly soured and 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.119 became the antagonistic relationship we'd always kind of had, you know. 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:08.840 And how long was that period of time where she 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.480 lived with you and you were in school together and 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:12.359 living together. 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.879 She moved in with us in the early spring of 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.480 nineteen eighty seven, and I think by early nineteen eighty 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.800 eight she had kind of moved back into a children's 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:23.640 home so she wasn't with us for that long. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.040 What precipitated her moving back into the children's home. 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.720 There was an incident that I really should tell you about. 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:31.879 There was a library book that I'd always wanted to 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:33.520 check out. I'd read all the Judy. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.399 Bloom books, and there was one Judy Bloom book that 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.560 I was not allowed to read, called Forever, and. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.159 The local librarian, who'd you know, she'd not permitted me 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.439 to check it out on a number of occasions. And 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.639 then one day I came home from school in that book, 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:50.520 Judy Blooms Forever had materialized on our kitchen counter, and 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:52.520 I was so excited, like, this is the one Judy 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.760 Bloom book I've not read, and so I, you know, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.879 I started to read it, and I had so many questions. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.640 You know, it was about this sexual relationship and there 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.320 was language in it that I didn't understand. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:05.920 So I had conversation with. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.960 Gail one night after lights were out, and I said 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:10.520 to her, you know, what does it mean, Like what 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:14.840 does this sexual reference mean? And she told me, well, 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.399 first of all, she said, I'm not allowed to tell you. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.000 And I'm like, what do you mean? And she said, well, 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:22.600 my Mum's made me promise not to talk to you 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:23.240 about sex. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.200 She said, you're still innocent, and I was sex so offended, 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.680 like I know all about it, even though obviously I didn't, 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.879 because I'm asking her questions. And so she goes on 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.840 to tell me what this sexual reference means, and she 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.199 tells me in such a way that she's kind of 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.679 bragging about it, and so I keep my voice neutral 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.159