WEBVTT - How to Stop Africa’s Brain Drain 

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>President Biden became the first sitting US president to visit

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<v Speaker 2>Africa since twenty fifteen this week, as he kept his

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<v Speaker 2>promise to meet with President Joel Lorenzo in Angola.

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<v Speaker 3>And makes sense. You must work as partners with work entrepreneur.

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<v Speaker 1>That business is here in Africa.

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<v Speaker 4>Although I don't know exactly what the future will hold,

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<v Speaker 4>I know the future runs through Angola, through Africa. I

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<v Speaker 4>mean it sincerely.

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<v Speaker 2>The President was keen to teut US investment in infrastructure

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<v Speaker 2>like the Lobido Corridor to help speed up the export

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<v Speaker 2>of critical minerals, but for many Africans it's the export

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<v Speaker 2>of their young talent that's actually become the real concern.

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<v Speaker 2>On this episode of The Next Africa Podcast, we'll look

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<v Speaker 2>at why so many young Africans think their future prospects

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<v Speaker 2>lie abroad and what can be done to turn it around.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Jennifer Zabasandra, and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

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<v Speaker 2>the future of global growth, but the context only Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 2>can provide. Joining me this week from Nairobi is author,

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<v Speaker 2>journalist and Bloomberg columnists Shiku Kameria Shiku, great to have

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<v Speaker 2>you here.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you doing, Hi, Jennifer, I'm great, nice to

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<v Speaker 1>see you.

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<v Speaker 3>Nice to see you too and speak with you.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a very fascinating piece, and I'm sure for

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<v Speaker 2>many people who have been covering the region it's something

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<v Speaker 2>that's been on the minds for a number of years.

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<v Speaker 2>But let's start with some of the concepts you get

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<v Speaker 2>into in your piece, and one of them is called jappa.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk to us about what that means and why you

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<v Speaker 2>focused in on that.

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<v Speaker 1>So Japa is a concept of young Africans who are

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<v Speaker 1>so frustrated. Many times they're they're patriotic, they have great hopes,

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<v Speaker 1>they're innovative, they're resilient, but then they get to the

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<v Speaker 1>point where they feel the continent has failed them. And

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<v Speaker 1>japa means to flee, and so now they're fleeing to

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<v Speaker 1>and these are young, educated people, so it's really people

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<v Speaker 1>that the continent should be tapping into and keeping on

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<v Speaker 1>the continent. But they get frustrated and they'll be living

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<v Speaker 1>for Canada, UK or any other any other place in

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<v Speaker 1>the West that's making it easy for people to move

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<v Speaker 1>for work.

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<v Speaker 3>Do we have a sense to go.

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<v Speaker 2>Why they're choosing some of these places that they're going,

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<v Speaker 2>especially given some of the challenges that they're facing here

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<v Speaker 2>on the continent. Is that factoring into potentially where they're going.

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<v Speaker 3>What did you find?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, So from what I boops are people will go

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<v Speaker 1>where it's easiest for them. So even anecdotally, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the friends who I have who young professional, they

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<v Speaker 1>had good education and them a great career trajectory, they're

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<v Speaker 1>leaving for Canada because Canada does have they have a

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<v Speaker 1>very immigration friendly program that's going on that it's based

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<v Speaker 1>on a point system.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome, We're so glad you decided to make Canada your

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<v Speaker 3>new home.

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<v Speaker 1>It's easy for people to move because there are people

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<v Speaker 1>who have had opportunities, so they don't to move in

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<v Speaker 1>illegal ways. They want to move in a way where

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<v Speaker 1>they know I will be able to get proper documentation

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<v Speaker 1>after a while. There's an opportunity for residency, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>an opportunity for citizenship. And also, anecdotically, one thing I

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<v Speaker 1>can say that makes me notice this trend is really happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Quite a few of the people who are even in

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<v Speaker 1>my own cycle, of the people who are moving are

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<v Speaker 1>people who were educated, even in the West, So it

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<v Speaker 1>means they went abroad, whether they went to Canada or

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<v Speaker 1>went Trance, whether they were in the US, they went abroad,

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<v Speaker 1>studied and came back to the continent with great hopes

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<v Speaker 1>of what they could do when they came back. So

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't even try to stay at that time. They

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<v Speaker 1>didn't tried to get residency or immigration or immigrat at

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<v Speaker 1>that stage. And then they've come back and after five years,

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<v Speaker 1>ten years, they've just filled their opportunities here and it's

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<v Speaker 1>not what they expected, and so out of frustration, they're

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<v Speaker 1>taking all their amazing skills and their experience and just

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<v Speaker 1>trying to build a better life for themselves and their

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<v Speaker 1>families abroad. So I think it's a real loss for

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<v Speaker 1>the continent. I believe it's again for the countries that

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<v Speaker 1>get them, but it's really a loss also for the

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<v Speaker 1>continent well.

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<v Speaker 2>And it comes at a time where you mentioned the

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<v Speaker 2>population increase. There's also a lot more of a focus

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<v Speaker 2>on development on the continent and really a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the industries that could power the future literally and figuratively.

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<v Speaker 2>But when we talk about employment figures and the underemployment figures,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, how bad is it? What are we looking at?

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<v Speaker 2>Especially when we factor and a lot of the people

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<v Speaker 2>who are living and finding opportunities elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 1>It varies to country, but I would say youth and

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<v Speaker 1>employment rates are generally quite high across the continent, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're starting to lose people who have we definitely need,

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<v Speaker 1>Like we're losing huge numbers of nass We're losing huge

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<v Speaker 1>numbers of doctors, teachers, so highly engineers, so highly skilled

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<v Speaker 1>people who the continent really needs right now at this time.

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<v Speaker 1>An example I gave in the article was engineers. So

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<v Speaker 1>there's also a huge wave of migration among older engineers.

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<v Speaker 1>So right now, when the continent needs infrastructure, when it

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<v Speaker 1>needs people with all these expertise, you're having engineers who

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<v Speaker 1>are in their fifties, sixties who have all this experience,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're choosing to move elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 3>That's surprising.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I wonder after you wrote this story, I

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<v Speaker 2>wonder what kind of did you get any feedback or

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<v Speaker 2>how are people responding to it?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, A lot of the feedback I got was, first,

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<v Speaker 1>the one thing, no one is blaming anyone for leaving

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<v Speaker 1>because there is an acknowledgement that patrioti is love of

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<v Speaker 1>your country. All those can only take you so far.

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<v Speaker 1>At some point, you want to make sure you know

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<v Speaker 1>your children will have great education opportunities. You want to

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<v Speaker 1>have access to health care. If you have aging parents,

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<v Speaker 1>you want to know that they'll be you know you'll

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<v Speaker 1>be able to provide for them deep into their old age.

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<v Speaker 1>So there is an acknowledgment that the people who are leaving.

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<v Speaker 1>No no one is saying, oh, this is so terrible

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<v Speaker 1>of them to leave, but we are knowledging that it's

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<v Speaker 1>terrible that the continent is losing these people. I did

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<v Speaker 1>get a few responses from people who have left or japaned.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess they told me, oh, this is my exact story,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's the truth. I wanted things to work out.

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<v Speaker 1>I tried everything when I was in Kenya, Senega, Nigeria, Ghana.

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<v Speaker 1>I tried everything to make things work and eventually I

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<v Speaker 1>just realized that it can't work for me there and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm leaving. So there's also that feeling and for the

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<v Speaker 1>people who are leaving, it's a bittersweet.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that's that's fair.

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<v Speaker 2>Anywhere you go on the continent and talk to people,

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<v Speaker 2>there still is that patriotism, she could stay.

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<v Speaker 3>With us US.

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<v Speaker 2>When we come back, we'll talk about what kind of

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<v Speaker 2>investment could help people to stay on the continent and

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<v Speaker 2>dig more into your reporting.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back today on the podcast we are looking at

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<v Speaker 2>Africa's youth brain Drain and joining us is Bloomberg columnists

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<v Speaker 2>Shiku Kamara. She wrote a really wonderful story that is

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<v Speaker 2>now available if you haven't read it, so she could.

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<v Speaker 2>We did see President Biden in Angola this week.

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<v Speaker 3>Outgoing President Biden, I think we.

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<v Speaker 2>Should we should mention he did make a number of

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<v Speaker 2>announcements about some of the investment that the US is

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<v Speaker 2>going to be committing to, at least for Africa and

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<v Speaker 2>for Angola in particular. But what kind of investment are

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<v Speaker 2>we talking about to potentially see a difference or a

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<v Speaker 2>shift in some of the trends of people leaving to

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<v Speaker 2>go elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think outgoing President Biden did say some very

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<v Speaker 1>interesting things during his visit.

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<v Speaker 4>We know African leaders and citizens are seeking more than

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<v Speaker 4>just aid, you seek investment. So the United States is

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<v Speaker 4>expanding our relationship all across Africa, from assistance to aid,

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<v Speaker 4>investment to trade coming from patrons to partners.

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<v Speaker 1>Aid is always going to be needed, even in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>even in developing countries, there's always going to be situations

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<v Speaker 1>where there's people who need They don't need loans, they

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<v Speaker 1>need grants, they need those benevolent funds that are coming in.

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<v Speaker 1>But he did acknowledge that Africa and US and other

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<v Speaker 1>partners should come to the table as equal. So even

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<v Speaker 1>when investors are coming to the continent, they should come

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<v Speaker 1>to the continent not with the mentality of your poor,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here.

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<v Speaker 3>To help you.

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<v Speaker 1>They should come to the table with the idea that

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<v Speaker 1>we're business people. The opportunities are here on the continent.

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<v Speaker 1>There's the people who have been running businesses, there's the

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<v Speaker 1>entrepreneurs who have the networks and everything, and maybe what

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<v Speaker 1>they need is the financing. So also acknowledging that it

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<v Speaker 1>can be a win win situation and that it should

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<v Speaker 1>be a partnership. Another thing I liked, especially about the

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<v Speaker 1>little bit Or Corridor project that he was launching in Angola.

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<v Speaker 1>We definitely need investments that go into government and infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 1>because infrastructure is going to be a huge backbone of

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<v Speaker 1>development on the continent. But we also need investments that's

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<v Speaker 1>going into the private sector. So when we're talking about infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 1>it's true there's a huge need on the continent for

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<v Speaker 1>improved road rail networks. Even we're talking about like aviation,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a huge potential that could be unlocked if all

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<v Speaker 1>these things were working much better. But all the other hand,

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<v Speaker 1>we also do need that for the private sector because

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<v Speaker 1>the formal sector will never be able to incomparate that

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<v Speaker 1>many people. But you have to acknowledge that there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of businesses that are running, and they're running at

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<v Speaker 1>a small scale, but the ideas could be there, the

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<v Speaker 1>ideas could be great, and what they need is additional funding.

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<v Speaker 1>I used to be the Quite Africa editor and so

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<v Speaker 1>we focus a lot on technolog innovation, and one of

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<v Speaker 1>the things we noticed was that start up funding, even

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<v Speaker 1>to Africa, as much as it's increased over the past decades,

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<v Speaker 1>it's still such a miniscule figure. It's still so tiny

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<v Speaker 1>how much venture capital and all this funding comes into

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<v Speaker 1>technology in Africa versus in other places. But there's so

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<v Speaker 1>many opportunities here on the continent and so many startups

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<v Speaker 1>that if they just got those the seed frunding they got,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if they got all that all that funding

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<v Speaker 1>that goes into startups globally, they could be able to

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<v Speaker 1>change the markets and they could be able to also

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<v Speaker 1>employ a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 2>Does that get to some of the other things that

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<v Speaker 2>you bring up and the piece about what could potentially

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<v Speaker 2>make a difference, I mean, what else would potentially push

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<v Speaker 2>the needle even more.

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<v Speaker 1>So another thing that could do that that's definitely important

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<v Speaker 1>is that the governments need to make sure they're enablers,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not making additional constraints for businesses, because there is

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<v Speaker 1>a mentality. Even in my own country in Kenya, sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>it's so hard for people to get their businesses up,

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<v Speaker 1>businesses running, it's so hard for them to access financing.

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<v Speaker 1>Then after all that, many times they don't feel that

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<v Speaker 1>the government is their friend because you finally get your

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<v Speaker 1>business running, then taxes are being added on it. Then

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<v Speaker 1>there's other charges that are coming your way that make

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<v Speaker 1>you have to stop the business or lay off people.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think governments also need to acknowledge that a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of these jobs are going to be created by

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<v Speaker 1>the private sector and businesses, and they need to make

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<v Speaker 1>an environment that forced us their growth so that they

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<v Speaker 1>don't hamstring them even just when they're at the stage

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<v Speaker 1>where they're trying to start up.

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<v Speaker 2>And you have a young daughter yourself, just talking about family,

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<v Speaker 2>have you thought about whether or not, you know, you'd

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<v Speaker 2>encourage her to build a career in Nairobi or anywhere

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<v Speaker 2>on the continent, or what at all have you thought

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<v Speaker 2>about sort of her future.

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<v Speaker 1>Great, So my daughter is four, so I would say

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<v Speaker 1>I've not yet thought of her future career processs. What

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<v Speaker 1>I would What I want is this Soudan is probably

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned in the article which says we wish two things

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<v Speaker 1>for our children. One is roots and the other is wings.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's what I really hope for her. I wish

0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.840
<v Speaker 1>for her a world where she has her roots. Her

0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.559
<v Speaker 1>roots are on the African continent, but she also has

0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.560
<v Speaker 1>wings that will allow her to fly. But I also

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<v Speaker 1>hope that when it comes to the time of when

0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.360
<v Speaker 1>she's going to high school, university, or making future decisions,

0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.520
<v Speaker 1>I hope that if she's moving, it's because she wants to,

0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.800
<v Speaker 1>not because she's supposed to. On the lower level, they

0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.600
<v Speaker 1>are people who are getting into boats and crossing the Mediterranean,

0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.000
<v Speaker 1>risking their life just because things are so dire that

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.520
<v Speaker 1>they're not working for them that they'd rather take the

0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:47.679
<v Speaker 1>chance of drowning than watching them themselves and their families

0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.280
<v Speaker 1>like just staff today. And that's how dire the situation

0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.439
<v Speaker 1>is that for most people it's a question of survival,

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.120
<v Speaker 1>not just this. I have this option and this other

0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.199
<v Speaker 1>option is better. But for many people it's really migration

0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.280
<v Speaker 1>right now seems to be their only opportunity for them

0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.080
<v Speaker 1>to put food on the table or to even enhance

0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.040
<v Speaker 1>their lives. And I don't want that to be the

0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.040
<v Speaker 1>future that Majorty grows happy.

0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.520
<v Speaker 2>Shiku Kamara, thank you so much for joining us, and

0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.920
<v Speaker 2>you can of course read Shiku's piece on Bloomberg. It

0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:21.800
<v Speaker 2>is available right now. Here's a few other stories we're

0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:26.440
<v Speaker 2>watching in the region. This week, Ghana's inflation jumped to

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<v Speaker 2>a six month high at twenty three percent ahead of

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:34.199
<v Speaker 2>the country's December seventh presidential elections. The cost of living

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 2>crisis will be a factor in the elections, with voters

0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.920
<v Speaker 2>angry with the government's handling of the economy expected to

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<v Speaker 2>result in opposition candidate John Mohamma being.

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<v Speaker 3>Elected the next leader of the West African nation.

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<v Speaker 2>And South Africa risks missing its twenty twenty four economic

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 2>growth forecast after the agricultural sector's deepest slump in at

0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.440
<v Speaker 2>least three decades led to an unexpected contraction in the

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<v Speaker 2>third quarter. The quarterly decline meant gross domestic product expanded

0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 2>a meager four tenths of a percent in the nine

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<v Speaker 2>months through September. Data published by Statistics South Africa on

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<v Speaker 2>Tuesday shows that suggests the National Treasury and the South

0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 2>African Reserve Banks twenty twenty four growth estimates of one

0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 2>point one.

0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.359
<v Speaker 3>Percent will likely prove overly optimistic.

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<v Speaker 2>And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg, including the

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<v Speaker 2>Next African Newsletter, where we will have coverage of the

0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Ghanaian elections. Will put a link to that in the

0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:44.040
<v Speaker 2>show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't

0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.120
<v Speaker 2>forget to follow and review this show wherever you usually

0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:48.239
<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts.

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.360
<v Speaker 3>I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks for listening.