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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: President Biden became the first sitting US president to visit

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Speaker 2: Africa since twenty fifteen this week, as he kept his

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Speaker 2: promise to meet with President Joel Lorenzo in Angola.

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Speaker 3: And makes sense. You must work as partners with work entrepreneur.

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Speaker 1: That business is here in Africa.

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Speaker 4: Although I don't know exactly what the future will hold,

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Speaker 4: I know the future runs through Angola, through Africa. I

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Speaker 4: mean it sincerely.

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Speaker 2: The President was keen to teut US investment in infrastructure

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Speaker 2: like the Lobido Corridor to help speed up the export

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Speaker 2: of critical minerals, but for many Africans it's the export

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Speaker 2: of their young talent that's actually become the real concern.

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Speaker 2: On this episode of The Next Africa Podcast, we'll look

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Speaker 2: at why so many young Africans think their future prospects

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Speaker 2: lie abroad and what can be done to turn it around.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Zabasandra, and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

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Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

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Speaker 2: the future of global growth, but the context only Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: can provide. Joining me this week from Nairobi is author,

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Speaker 2: journalist and Bloomberg columnists Shiku Kameria Shiku, great to have

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Speaker 2: you here.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing, Hi, Jennifer, I'm great, nice to

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Speaker 1: see you.

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Speaker 3: Nice to see you too and speak with you.

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Speaker 2: This is a very fascinating piece, and I'm sure for

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Speaker 2: many people who have been covering the region it's something

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Speaker 2: that's been on the minds for a number of years.

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Speaker 2: But let's start with some of the concepts you get

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Speaker 2: into in your piece, and one of them is called jappa.

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Speaker 2: Talk to us about what that means and why you

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Speaker 2: focused in on that.

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Speaker 1: So Japa is a concept of young Africans who are

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Speaker 1: so frustrated. Many times they're they're patriotic, they have great hopes,

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Speaker 1: they're innovative, they're resilient, but then they get to the

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Speaker 1: point where they feel the continent has failed them. And

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Speaker 1: japa means to flee, and so now they're fleeing to

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Speaker 1: and these are young, educated people, so it's really people

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Speaker 1: that the continent should be tapping into and keeping on

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Speaker 1: the continent. But they get frustrated and they'll be living

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Speaker 1: for Canada, UK or any other any other place in

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Speaker 1: the West that's making it easy for people to move

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Speaker 1: for work.

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Speaker 3: Do we have a sense to go.

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Speaker 2: Why they're choosing some of these places that they're going,

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Speaker 2: especially given some of the challenges that they're facing here

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Speaker 2: on the continent. Is that factoring into potentially where they're going.

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Speaker 3: What did you find?

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Speaker 1: Yes, So from what I boops are people will go

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Speaker 1: where it's easiest for them. So even anecdotally, a lot

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Speaker 1: of the friends who I have who young professional, they

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Speaker 1: had good education and them a great career trajectory, they're

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Speaker 1: leaving for Canada because Canada does have they have a

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Speaker 1: very immigration friendly program that's going on that it's based

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Speaker 1: on a point system.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, We're so glad you decided to make Canada your

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Speaker 3: new home.

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Speaker 1: It's easy for people to move because there are people

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Speaker 1: who have had opportunities, so they don't to move in

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Speaker 1: illegal ways. They want to move in a way where

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Speaker 1: they know I will be able to get proper documentation

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Speaker 1: after a while. There's an opportunity for residency, and there's

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Speaker 1: an opportunity for citizenship. And also, anecdotically, one thing I

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Speaker 1: can say that makes me notice this trend is really happening.

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Speaker 1: Quite a few of the people who are even in

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Speaker 1: my own cycle, of the people who are moving are

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Speaker 1: people who were educated, even in the West, So it

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Speaker 1: means they went abroad, whether they went to Canada or

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Speaker 1: went Trance, whether they were in the US, they went abroad,

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Speaker 1: studied and came back to the continent with great hopes

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Speaker 1: of what they could do when they came back. So

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Speaker 1: they didn't even try to stay at that time. They

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Speaker 1: didn't tried to get residency or immigration or immigrat at

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Speaker 1: that stage. And then they've come back and after five years,

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Speaker 1: ten years, they've just filled their opportunities here and it's

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Speaker 1: not what they expected, and so out of frustration, they're

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Speaker 1: taking all their amazing skills and their experience and just

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Speaker 1: trying to build a better life for themselves and their

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Speaker 1: families abroad. So I think it's a real loss for

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Speaker 1: the continent. I believe it's again for the countries that

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Speaker 1: get them, but it's really a loss also for the

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Speaker 1: continent well.

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Speaker 2: And it comes at a time where you mentioned the

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Speaker 2: population increase. There's also a lot more of a focus

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Speaker 2: on development on the continent and really a lot of

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Speaker 2: the industries that could power the future literally and figuratively.

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Speaker 2: But when we talk about employment figures and the underemployment figures,

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Speaker 2: I guess.

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Speaker 3: I mean, how bad is it? What are we looking at?

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Speaker 2: Especially when we factor and a lot of the people

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Speaker 2: who are living and finding opportunities elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: It varies to country, but I would say youth and

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Speaker 1: employment rates are generally quite high across the continent, and

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Speaker 1: we're starting to lose people who have we definitely need,

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Speaker 1: Like we're losing huge numbers of nass We're losing huge

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Speaker 1: numbers of doctors, teachers, so highly engineers, so highly skilled

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Speaker 1: people who the continent really needs right now at this time.

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Speaker 1: An example I gave in the article was engineers. So

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Speaker 1: there's also a huge wave of migration among older engineers.

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Speaker 1: So right now, when the continent needs infrastructure, when it

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Speaker 1: needs people with all these expertise, you're having engineers who

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Speaker 1: are in their fifties, sixties who have all this experience,

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Speaker 1: and they're choosing to move elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: That's surprising.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I wonder after you wrote this story, I

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Speaker 2: wonder what kind of did you get any feedback or

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Speaker 2: how are people responding to it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, A lot of the feedback I got was, first,

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Speaker 1: the one thing, no one is blaming anyone for leaving

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Speaker 1: because there is an acknowledgement that patrioti is love of

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Speaker 1: your country. All those can only take you so far.

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Speaker 1: At some point, you want to make sure you know

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Speaker 1: your children will have great education opportunities. You want to

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Speaker 1: have access to health care. If you have aging parents,

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Speaker 1: you want to know that they'll be you know you'll

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Speaker 1: be able to provide for them deep into their old age.

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Speaker 1: So there is an acknowledgment that the people who are leaving.

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Speaker 1: No no one is saying, oh, this is so terrible

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Speaker 1: of them to leave, but we are knowledging that it's

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Speaker 1: terrible that the continent is losing these people. I did

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Speaker 1: get a few responses from people who have left or japaned.

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Speaker 1: I guess they told me, oh, this is my exact story,

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Speaker 1: and it's the truth. I wanted things to work out.

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Speaker 1: I tried everything when I was in Kenya, Senega, Nigeria, Ghana.

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Speaker 1: I tried everything to make things work and eventually I

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Speaker 1: just realized that it can't work for me there and

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Speaker 1: I'm leaving. So there's also that feeling and for the

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Speaker 1: people who are leaving, it's a bittersweet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's that's fair.

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Speaker 2: Anywhere you go on the continent and talk to people,

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Speaker 2: there still is that patriotism, she could stay.

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Speaker 3: With us US.

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Speaker 2: When we come back, we'll talk about what kind of

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Speaker 2: investment could help people to stay on the continent and

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Speaker 2: dig more into your reporting.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back today on the podcast we are looking at

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Speaker 2: Africa's youth brain Drain and joining us is Bloomberg columnists

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Speaker 2: Shiku Kamara. She wrote a really wonderful story that is

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Speaker 2: now available if you haven't read it, so she could.

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Speaker 2: We did see President Biden in Angola this week.

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Speaker 3: Outgoing President Biden, I think we.

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Speaker 2: Should we should mention he did make a number of

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Speaker 2: announcements about some of the investment that the US is

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Speaker 2: going to be committing to, at least for Africa and

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Speaker 2: for Angola in particular. But what kind of investment are

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Speaker 2: we talking about to potentially see a difference or a

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Speaker 2: shift in some of the trends of people leaving to

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Speaker 2: go elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think outgoing President Biden did say some very

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Speaker 1: interesting things during his visit.

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Speaker 4: We know African leaders and citizens are seeking more than

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Speaker 4: just aid, you seek investment. So the United States is

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Speaker 4: expanding our relationship all across Africa, from assistance to aid,

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Speaker 4: investment to trade coming from patrons to partners.

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Speaker 1: Aid is always going to be needed, even in the US,

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Speaker 1: even in developing countries, there's always going to be situations

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Speaker 1: where there's people who need They don't need loans, they

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Speaker 1: need grants, they need those benevolent funds that are coming in.

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Speaker 1: But he did acknowledge that Africa and US and other

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Speaker 1: partners should come to the table as equal. So even

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Speaker 1: when investors are coming to the continent, they should come

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Speaker 1: to the continent not with the mentality of your poor,

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Speaker 1: I'm here.

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Speaker 3: To help you.

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Speaker 1: They should come to the table with the idea that

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Speaker 1: we're business people. The opportunities are here on the continent.

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Speaker 1: There's the people who have been running businesses, there's the

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurs who have the networks and everything, and maybe what

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Speaker 1: they need is the financing. So also acknowledging that it

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Speaker 1: can be a win win situation and that it should

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Speaker 1: be a partnership. Another thing I liked, especially about the

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Speaker 1: little bit Or Corridor project that he was launching in Angola.

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Speaker 1: We definitely need investments that go into government and infrastructure,

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Speaker 1: because infrastructure is going to be a huge backbone of

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Speaker 1: development on the continent. But we also need investments that's

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Speaker 1: going into the private sector. So when we're talking about infrastructure,

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Speaker 1: it's true there's a huge need on the continent for

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Speaker 1: improved road rail networks. Even we're talking about like aviation,

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Speaker 1: there's a huge potential that could be unlocked if all

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Speaker 1: these things were working much better. But all the other hand,

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Speaker 1: we also do need that for the private sector because

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Speaker 1: the formal sector will never be able to incomparate that

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Speaker 1: many people. But you have to acknowledge that there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of businesses that are running, and they're running at

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Speaker 1: a small scale, but the ideas could be there, the

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Speaker 1: ideas could be great, and what they need is additional funding.

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Speaker 1: I used to be the Quite Africa editor and so

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Speaker 1: we focus a lot on technolog innovation, and one of

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Speaker 1: the things we noticed was that start up funding, even

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Speaker 1: to Africa, as much as it's increased over the past decades,

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Speaker 1: it's still such a miniscule figure. It's still so tiny

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Speaker 1: how much venture capital and all this funding comes into

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Speaker 1: technology in Africa versus in other places. But there's so

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Speaker 1: many opportunities here on the continent and so many startups

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Speaker 1: that if they just got those the seed frunding they got,

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Speaker 1: you know, if they got all that all that funding

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Speaker 1: that goes into startups globally, they could be able to

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Speaker 1: change the markets and they could be able to also

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Speaker 1: employ a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Does that get to some of the other things that

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Speaker 2: you bring up and the piece about what could potentially

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Speaker 2: make a difference, I mean, what else would potentially push

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Speaker 2: the needle even more.

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Speaker 1: So another thing that could do that that's definitely important

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Speaker 1: is that the governments need to make sure they're enablers,

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Speaker 1: they're not making additional constraints for businesses, because there is

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Speaker 1: a mentality. Even in my own country in Kenya, sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's so hard for people to get their businesses up,

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Speaker 1: businesses running, it's so hard for them to access financing.

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Speaker 1: Then after all that, many times they don't feel that

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Speaker 1: the government is their friend because you finally get your

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Speaker 1: business running, then taxes are being added on it. Then

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Speaker 1: there's other charges that are coming your way that make

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Speaker 1: you have to stop the business or lay off people.

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Speaker 1: So I think governments also need to acknowledge that a

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Speaker 1: lot of these jobs are going to be created by

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Speaker 1: the private sector and businesses, and they need to make

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Speaker 1: an environment that forced us their growth so that they

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Speaker 1: don't hamstring them even just when they're at the stage

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Speaker 1: where they're trying to start up.

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Speaker 2: And you have a young daughter yourself, just talking about family,

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Speaker 2: have you thought about whether or not, you know, you'd

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Speaker 2: encourage her to build a career in Nairobi or anywhere

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Speaker 2: on the continent, or what at all have you thought

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Speaker 2: about sort of her future.

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Speaker 1: Great, So my daughter is four, so I would say

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Speaker 1: I've not yet thought of her future career processs. What

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Speaker 1: I would What I want is this Soudan is probably

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Speaker 1: mentioned in the article which says we wish two things

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Speaker 1: for our children. One is roots and the other is wings.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I really hope for her. I wish

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Speaker 1: for her a world where she has her roots. Her

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Speaker 1: roots are on the African continent, but she also has

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Speaker 1: wings that will allow her to fly. But I also

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Speaker 1: hope that when it comes to the time of when

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Speaker 1: she's going to high school, university, or making future decisions,

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Speaker 1: I hope that if she's moving, it's because she wants to,

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Speaker 1: not because she's supposed to. On the lower level, they

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Speaker 1: are people who are getting into boats and crossing the Mediterranean,

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Speaker 1: risking their life just because things are so dire that

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Speaker 1: they're not working for them that they'd rather take the

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Speaker 1: chance of drowning than watching them themselves and their families

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Speaker 1: like just staff today. And that's how dire the situation

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Speaker 1: is that for most people it's a question of survival,

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Speaker 1: not just this. I have this option and this other

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Speaker 1: option is better. But for many people it's really migration

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Speaker 1: right now seems to be their only opportunity for them

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Speaker 1: to put food on the table or to even enhance

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Speaker 1: their lives. And I don't want that to be the

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Speaker 1: future that Majorty grows happy.

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Speaker 2: Shiku Kamara, thank you so much for joining us, and

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Speaker 2: you can of course read Shiku's piece on Bloomberg. It

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Speaker 2: is available right now. Here's a few other stories we're

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Speaker 2: watching in the region. This week, Ghana's inflation jumped to

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Speaker 2: a six month high at twenty three percent ahead of

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Speaker 2: the country's December seventh presidential elections. The cost of living

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Speaker 2: crisis will be a factor in the elections, with voters

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Speaker 2: angry with the government's handling of the economy expected to

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Speaker 2: result in opposition candidate John Mohamma being.

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Speaker 3: Elected the next leader of the West African nation.

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Speaker 2: And South Africa risks missing its twenty twenty four economic

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Speaker 2: growth forecast after the agricultural sector's deepest slump in at

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Speaker 2: least three decades led to an unexpected contraction in the

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Speaker 2: third quarter. The quarterly decline meant gross domestic product expanded

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Speaker 2: a meager four tenths of a percent in the nine

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Speaker 2: months through September. Data published by Statistics South Africa on

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Speaker 2: Tuesday shows that suggests the National Treasury and the South

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Speaker 2: African Reserve Banks twenty twenty four growth estimates of one

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Speaker 2: point one.

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Speaker 3: Percent will likely prove overly optimistic.

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Speaker 2: And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg, including the

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Speaker 2: Next African Newsletter, where we will have coverage of the

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Speaker 2: Ghanaian elections. Will put a link to that in the

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Speaker 2: show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't

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Speaker 2: forget to follow and review this show wherever you usually

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks for listening.