WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How Munchausen Syndrome Works 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:05.440 How do you everybody, it's February first, two thousand eleven. 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.880 No it's not. It's modern times. But this is a 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.280 throwback to February first, two thousand eleven, when Josh and 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:16.520 I released our episode on Monkhousen syndrome. Very very fascinating 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:21.160 one here everyone, really really interesting condition and very sad 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.960 as well. But you should be delighted to learn all 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:29.800 about Monkhausen syndrome today, So I hope you enjoy it. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:31.600 It's a it's a pretty pretty interesting one, and that's 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:37.320 why I picked it. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:46.120 from house Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.720 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always as 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:52.320 Charles W. Chuck Bryant that makes this stuff you should 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:58.440 know the podcast. I think you didn't know. How's it going. 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.000 It's going great. Your nails are shiny. I got my 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.920 first manicure last week and I went for the clear 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.880 cooat and I didn't notice. I didn't know this about 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.600 that's an overcoat. I didn't know this about Chuck. But 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.959 he um bites his nail, so he has very shiny, 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:20.000 well trimmed half nail stubs. Yeah, a little bleedy cuticles. 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.679 It's like you have some sort of like keratin deficiency 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.480 or something. Let's go with that. But it's very shiny, 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.320 like the caratin you do have is radioactive or I 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.080 could fake like I have a carratin deficiency. Speaking of faking, Chuck, 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.720 that's just amazing that you said that word, because we're 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:42.800 going to talk about a syndrome wherein people perfectly healthy, 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.880 people at least who start out healthy, fake their own illness. 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.400 Bear with me. Yeah, okay, have you seen the movie 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.440 The sixth Cents? Have you seen the television show The 0:01:55.520 --> 0:02:00.320 O C? No, you've never seen The C I used 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.120 to be hooked on that really? Oh yeah? Is that 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.360 how you got rid of TV? Yeah? I was like 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.919 I can't, it's ruining my life. Um, I can't remember 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:10.960 the girl's name in The o C. But she plays 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.720 the girl in the sixth Sense who dies and who 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.560 shows up to Haley Joel Osmond's character. Is it Misha Barton, 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.800 like the lead girl? Yeah? Yeah, really she was the 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:21.520 little girl in that. Yes, she was that she had 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:23.800 to vomit and remember she was like hanging outside of 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.360 his tent and just scaring the tar out of him. Well, yeah, 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.079 but she turned out to be okay. She's just a 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.880 little upset that her mom was feeding her pines, all right, right, 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.480 and she eventually dies. She had videotaped herself. I hope 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.160 everyone's seen the sixth sense if you haven't, I'm actually 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.320 not really spoiling it. There's a way I could spoil 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.600 it way worse than this. But um, she videotapes her 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.040 mother poisoning her soup with pine saw and her mom 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:53.560 is outed for having what's called Munchausen's biproxy and that's 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:58.200 a derivative of what's called Munchausen syndrome, right, Munchhausen, that's 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:00.079 another way to put it. Yeah. They also call a 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.520 f II. Have you heard of that? Factitious? Close fabricated 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:09.520 or induced illness? Where's the other F or f I? 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.280 F I I induced illness? Yeah, my brain didn't function. 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.120 But yeah, you were gonna say facetious disorder, which is 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.519 what it is. Factitious? I was it factitious? I feel 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.519 like a dummy now. I was like, yeah, that's pretty facetious. 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.640 I remember when I came across the word facetious. I 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.960 I used it in um my everyday vocabulary, or tried 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.600 to and um, I but I was reading it in 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.080 books here there and never put the two together. So 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.600 finally I'm like, what is that word? And I sounded 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.400 it out and a facidious, fatidious facetious. I was like, 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:46.360 oh that's facetious. Oh yeah, no, fastidious. Is that what 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.800 you were thinking? Okay, it's like facet like the facet 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:55.560 of a diamond. I O U s. And this is fastidious. 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.400 I've been reading this wrong. Okay, this is factitious. Factitious. Man, 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.720 I'm a dumb We keep this in yeah, I think 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.320 so all right, let's do this. Okay. So, um, this 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:10.400 is a Munchausen or is you say? Munkhausen syndrome is 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:17.040 a really mysterious disorder. Um. People imagine it's extremely rare. Um, 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.719 but we have no idea how prevalent it is. Because 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:25.440 one of the hallmark characteristics of Munkhausen Munchausen syndrome is 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.840 that is dishonesty. Yeah, right, like you don't want to 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:30.680 admit you have it. That's the whole point. No, And 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.640 and to define it's it's where somebody who is not 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:37.880 ill either fakes an illness or makes themselves intentionally ill 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.360 in order to be able to go seek medical care 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.839 and or sympathy and empathy from friends, neighbors, relatives for 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.240 you know, having an illness inflicted upon them. Yeah, it's 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:55.960 like fight club ed Norton and Helena Bottom Carter visit 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.760 support groups for illnesses to get you know, get attention 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.800 and feel a part of a club. I guess right, exactly. 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:07.280 And that's actually there's a new thing called Monkhausen by Internet. Yeah, 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.320 that's a big one, And that's like a new deal 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.320 where you go online to online support groups and feign 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.839 being sick just to feel like you're fitting in. I 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.320 guess right. And it's sad. It is sad, but as 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:22.680 we'll figure out, um, Munchausen by Internet is actually kind 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:28.240 of a um. It provides somewhat less harmful sucker to 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.440 people who need that. Right, So you're still feeding this 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:37.640 pathological illness. It's not a mental illness, but mentally it's 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.800 just as dangerous. Physically, it's not because you're getting what 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.120 you want, what you crave, what you need, which is 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.719 that attention and that sympathy, but you're not having to 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.440 like inject gasoline to get it, and you're not going 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.600 to the doctors, and you're not running up insurance premiums 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:57.000 that shouldn't be there and all that bad stuff that 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.480 happens with the real Munchhausen. Well, let's talk about the 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.880 history of this. Well y one I think was when 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:08.360 it was first described by Richard Asher in the Lancet, Right, 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.320 that's when it first got its name. Okay. I read 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.760 somewhere that there's like biblical accounts of people like like 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:19.159 basically doing harm to themselves to get attention. Yeah, well, 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:20.760 I know, I don't want to say it makes sense, 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.200 but it makes sense that it goes back that long 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.880 because what better way if you're very lonely then to 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.039 get people to feel sorry for you then to like 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.000 jump in a wheelchair all of a sudden or something 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.480 a prehistoric wheelchair exactly, or at least a um. Yeah, 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:36.120 So he named it in the Lancet, and he named 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:40.680 it after, of course, Baron von Monkhausen, who was the 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:46.640 eighteenth century German military man who apparently went off to 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.360 fight the Russians, the Turks, the Turks and came back 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.800 with all these fanciful stories that people thought were largely 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.560 probably made up to get attention, right, And there's this 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.520 Munchausen Appreciation Society who like actually like the guy and 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:04.000 like the tales. Um, and they've only they've been able 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:11.240 to pin three tales to the actual Baron Munchausen, but they, um, 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.040 there's you know, whole books of what he's supposedly these 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.920 tales he's supposedly told, and then Terry Gilliam got ahold 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.800 of them. Well, of course we'll be remiss without saying 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.080 that former Monty Python Alam made that great movie. Did 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:29.000 you see it? Yeah? The Adventures? It was good. It 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.560 seems good. I think it was Uma Thurman's first role, 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.840 if I'm not mistaken. Was she in it? Yeah? That's 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.120 very neat, very young Uma from from the Adventures of 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.360 Baron Munchausen too, Super mom my super ex girlfriend? Yeah, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.840 what was the one where she's a mom? Though it 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.480 came out even more recently, I don't know she's She's 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.040 been in a bit of a talespen lately. We like 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:55.880 him with though uh Uma and Oprah classic bit, we 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.920 should probably get back to the serious timber Yes. Um, 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.679 we should point out that it is not hypochondria, because 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:06.160 hypochondriacs actually believe that they're sick, and people with Monk 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.680 House and disordered. They know they're not sick, they're trying 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.600 to pretend that they're sick. Right. Um, there's another, UM, 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:14.280 I don't know if you call it a disorder, there's 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.640 another state of mind that someone can be in called malingering, 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:20.160 And that's where you pretend to be sick, either for 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.880 financial gain or to get out of work. Like um, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.240 maybe from arrested development when she had the alter ego 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.560 who was wheelchair bound and like raised a bunch of 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.400 contributions for Yeah, I think everyone's lingered at one point 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:34.240 or another, if it's to get out of work, right, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.920 I guess even just sending an email like, yeah, that's lingering. Yeah. 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:41.600 In fact, the next time I do that, I'm gonna 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.120 just put in the subject line malingering and see if 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.640 anyone even notices what that means. That's way worse than 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.959 um or. It sounds way worse than playing hookey. Yeah, 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.480 you malingering. It sounds like you're defrauding somebody. So why 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.280 would someone do this? Well, Um, there's a lot of reasons. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:03.640 The underlying reason, the underlying um part of the disorder 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.880 is that it's psychological. They believe, right, it's a part 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.400 of a personality disorder. And there's a number of risk 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.920 factors that people who have munch House in syndrome tend 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.800 to exhibit, like UM, they were they either lost a 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.360 parent while they were young, or they were abandoned by 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.760 a parents. Another big one, they may have UM had 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:29.560 some sort of prolonged childhood illness is one. UM. They 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:34.679 some are want to be doctors and nurses. Yes they can't. 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.360 Maybe couldn't get a job in the medical profession or 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.680 never wanted to try hard enough because it's kind of 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.280 hard to do that. It's easier to just you know, 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.520 hurt yourself, take it before you make it, and then 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:52.560 you've got UM sexual physical, emotional abuse. It's this is 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.560 this provides some sort of outlet. It's a really I 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:59.640 guess really the easiest way to understand it is these 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.920 people who need to be, who need attention, who need 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.200 to be taken care of, who just need more than 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.400 they're willing to ask for overtly have found an easy 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.680 street between where where they are and where they need 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.680 to be as far as attention goes. Well, it's interesting 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.640 you say that because they do point out passive aggressive personality, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:21.880 and a lot of these people if you could just 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.840 teach them like, you know, if you need more support 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.040 and love, then you should be able to ask for that. 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.440 But this is like the ultimate and passive aggressive I think, right, 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:36.160 exactly exactly. Um, So when you're when you're addressing Munchausen syndrome, 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.599 you um would usually treat it like you would depression 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.840 or anxiety and just kind of approach it from that route. 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.160 And I imagine probably as well as using cognitive behavioral 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.480 therapy where it's like no, no, don't don't do that anymore, 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:55.200 don't eat that salt, snap the rubber band on your wrist, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.959 remind yourself risk if you're lucky. Um, what else are 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:04.600 we talking about, Chuck? Oh, some more defining characteristics. Usually 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.280 people who have munch house and syndrome are young or 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.600 middle aged, although there is a record of a guy 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.280 who is pretty much a munch House in patient his 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.200 whole life. He became famous. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we're 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.680 gonna get to him, right, That was at the cherry Yeah. 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:36.439 And then so what do they do? I mean, how 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.760 do you how do you feign illness? Well, this is 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.960 where it gets really interesting, because it goes anywhere from 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.640 just lying, but it's not just a lie, it's he's 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.440 usually very specific, like they say that any symptom that 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.760 can't be like proven medically is what they'll usually use. 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:59.920 And they always say it's very very specific, like textbooks, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.040 symptom that they clearly read from a book. So they said, hey, 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.240 if I say that i'm this, this, and this right, 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.640 then I can get this attention. But the problem is 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.440 if if you know, these doctors use these same physician 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.440 desk references, so they go look up this, this, and this, 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.080 and they go, oh, well, it's probably this, so I'm 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.080 going to treat it with nitroglycerin. The problem is if 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.080 you're faking these three symptoms and the nitroglycerin doesn't have 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.959 any effect, that you raise some red flags for your 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.600 you know, physician or nurse. Right that that's a big 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:35.959 problem with UM, with um Munchausen syndrome is that eventually 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.040 people are going to start to get suspicious, right, and 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.480 you're lying too, So it's not like you can just 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.840 hide behind your conviction. You're hiding behind a lie, which 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.680 I think is is much more stressful. Well, and they'll 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.400 go even further. I mean that's just the basic lies told. 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:57.559 People will also physically inflict harm upon themselves everything from h, 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.880 well this isn't really harm on yourself, but like heating 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.880 up your thermometer, right, tampering with stuff like Henry and 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.720 e T. Yeah, he was he clearly had munchausen. Well 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.040 he's trying to get out of school though, so he 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.760 was really lingering to stay with Yeah, but um, that 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:17.560 is something that they will do. Uh, injecting yourself with toxins, 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:22.439 tainting your urine samples, which you could use anything for that. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.800 I mean, even like a little salt in your urine 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.480 will change things. Blood if you put a little blood 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.400 in your urine or your stool. Taking medications you shouldn't 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.840 be taking, yeah, or just poisoning yourself in any in 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.600 any way, shape or form. But apparently injecting is is 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.679 fairly common. Um. And then you said also when you 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:46.640 were talking about feigning illness and choosing specific um symptoms, 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.079 they may also take a different route and and choose 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.080 very broad symptoms like chest paint or um like nausea 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.240 or something like that. It could be anything. Yeah, that'll 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.520 just tie a doctor up for hours, if not days, 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.040 which is what they want is more and attention, Like oh, 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.840 you're gonna have to come in tomorrow too. They're probably sweet, right. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.640 And And one of the one of the reasons that 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.360 tying a doctor up is just great is because within 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.040 those hours, this doctor is going to get more and 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.160 more baffled and order more and more tests. And one 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.000 of the if the doctors paying attention, he or she 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.440 would notice that the munchaus And patient is more than 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.520 happy to do this next test, like sure, stick that there, 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.520 or maybe even suggested like shouldn't you do this test 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.280 and stick that there? Those are two uh characteristics are 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:34.280 two um um symptoms of Munchausen syndrome. Is that you 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.560 are very willing, if not eager, to any and every 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.880 test that they want to do, whereas most people are 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.240 probably you know, like do you have to do that? 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.800 Is there another thing to do? Right? Um? And then 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:52.760 extensive knowledge about um tests and procedures and symptoms and 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.160 the inner workings of a hospital. Those two things should 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.600 be big red flags if you are a physician and 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.920 you suspect, you know, you're having kind of troubled dealing 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:06.520 with somebody's symptoms, but not because you're dumb, because you're 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.760 trying everything well. Yeah, and inconsistency is one thing to 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.280 look for it in your medical history. If they say, well, 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.200 you're in here for high blood pressure, you were in 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.920 here last year for low blood pressure. So that's a 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:22.080 little weird. Yeah, because I think I would imagine if 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.600 you're getting what you need, and especially if it's like 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:29.320 a standard kind of um pathological behavior where it builds 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.080 up and up, like remember we talked about kleptomania, Like 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.200 the urge just builds up and builds up and until 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.240 it becomes irresistible, and afterwards there's just catharsis and then 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.240 the guilt or whatever. I don't I didn't see it anywhere, 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.160 but if Munchausen syndrome is like that, one would imagine 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.800 that you kind of lose touch with your previous lies 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.240 and you're not looking at it as a big picture 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.320 thing like this for the rest of my life. It's 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.200 very like, you know, let's let's do it now and 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.320 get this done and get this over with. And maybe 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.120 if they actually sat down and saw their metal history sheet, 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.600 they'd say, oh, right, need to take this in a 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.000 different direction. I UM. I read an account of a 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:10.920 guy who um feigned bereavement. It was called factitious bereavement, 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.520 and he showed up at the hospital UM and was 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.320 committed for like four weeks because he was um grieving 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.160 over the car accident death of his wife seven weeks 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.600 earlier and the heart attack death of his mother three 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.720 weeks earlier. And then he was interviewed. He was giving 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.560 a family history, and three of his fourteen siblings had 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.640 died young from things like throat cancer, some other accident 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.480 and another thing um. And they started asking this guy 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.800 more and more questions, and he wouldn't produce like a 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.360 photo of his wife, and he wouldn't let anybody talk 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.720 to his family, and they started to get kind of suspicious. 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.200 Finally contact and found out who his family was. Contacted 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.400 his mother, who was alive, His eleven siblings were all 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.000 doing well. He didn't have fourteen and three hadn't died, 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.200 and he was never married. And when they confronted him 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.000 with this stuff, he just continued to lie and lie 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:08.119 and lie. So there's a pathological bent pathological lying aspect 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:15.240 too Munchausen, which is called pseudological fantastica. Yeah, well, you 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.840 brought up an important point. Not letting family be involved. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:19.680 That's a big tell too. If you. They say, you know, 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.399 you should probably bring your husband in and uh, oh no, no, no, 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:27.160 we don't need to involve him, right or or he's dead, yeah, exactly, Yeah, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.680 you don't want to talk to him. He's dead. It's 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:34.399 not funny at all. So that's Munchausen syndrome. UM. There's 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:40.280 a high risk of suicide with Munchausen, probably accidental suicide. 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.280 I mean people that go too far by accident, or 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.359 they just coming to the end of the road. I 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.520 hadn't thought about that. UM, I heard come to the 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:50.200 end of the road. That's terrible. What I mean like that, Um, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.480 thirty to seventy percent is what I saw. But I 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.520 don't know. Maybe it would be accidental suicide. Interesting, I 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.200 don't even know if there's such a thing. But there's 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.280 also all sorts of other myriad problems that arise from 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.640 Munchausen syndrome, right, like UM, real illness, Like if you're 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.439 a Munchausen suffer happily, you can eventually make yourself like 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:14.200 genuinely ill um from injecting toxic stuff. UM. I read 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.199 another account of a guy who was UM, who had 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.480 suffered a number of amputations, medical amputations. He was missing, 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:27.720 like pieces of his fingers. He forced, like the doctors 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.280 to do it, he would cut himself. He kept a 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.720 little knife in a little bag of liquid feces on 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.399 him at all times because this thing was to cut 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.680 and then smear poop on the cut to make sure 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.919 it got infected. Let it faster, go seek medical attention. 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.760 And it was far too late and have his limbs amputated, 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:51.080 have his extremities amputated. But apparently the cut and smear 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.879 is not He's not the only one doing that. The 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:55.960 cut and smear, that's what I've done that. I was 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:57.919 about to say it has a name, No, I just 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.040 made up. Well, that's what I'd call it. Cutting smear. Well, 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.520 clearly one of the biggest problems too, is not just 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.879 the harm you're doing yourself, but you're tying up doctor's time. 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.680 You're you're spending money, if not your money, maybe it's 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.880 Medicare or whatever insurance carrier you have. It's very wasteful 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.000 and it's taking up time doctors have to treat real 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.240 patients when you need to be treated by a mental 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.240 health professional is what you need. And a lot of 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.080 these guys too. When you're talking about tying up physicians time. 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:30.080 They'll go um at times when there's different staff, lesser staff, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.720 so like weekend nights, holidays, that kind of thing. So 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.400 when they tie up because there'll be different people who 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.480 haven't met them before and are familiar with them. Um, 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.119 So when they're tying up people's time, they're really tying 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.840 up their time, you know. No good. So that's traditional 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.920 monk housen, which is bad. Yeah, but it gets worse. Yeah, 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.119 Mike Housen by proxy. Right, twenty years after the guy 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:57.720 um Richard Asher Dr. Richard Asher um coin the term 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:03.760 one chius in syndrome. Uh, another guy named um Roy 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:09.840 Meadows coined the term Munchausen syndrome by proxy, and that 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:15.080 one is not as recognized, readily recognized as real as 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:20.800 Munchausen syndrome. Yeah, did you run into that recognizes? What 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:26.600 do you mean? Well, I proven, Yeah, scientifically proven. It's 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.440 I think the way that I'm seeing it is it's 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.720 viewed by some as more like remember the Satanic worshiper 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.080 hysteria of the eighties. It kind of falls into line 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.760 with that, although this is much more established than that. 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.280 Is like the A m A recognizes it that American 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:50.360 Psychological Association recognizes it, but it's still it's easily it's 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:55.159 a lot more easily misconstrued than Munchausen syndrome. Is because 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.720 there's another person who's being harmed and because they're usually 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:01.920 chill and right. Well, yeah, this is the deal. It's 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.840 usually children, but not always. It's basically your caregiver to somebody, 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:10.040 um and you are maybe poisoning them, you maybe are 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:15.360 smothering them so they developed breathing problems. Uh, there's all 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.840 sorts of awful, abusive things that you can do to 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.280 bring your child in And that's when I mean you 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.320 talk about getting sympathy, is when you run into a 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.359 hospital with your baby saying my baby is sick, my 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.160 baby is sick, or even worse than dead baby. Yeah, 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.680 and that happened sadly all the time. Well, the first 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:36.960 two cases um that that the guy Roy Meadows, Dr 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:42.439 Roy Meadows um described we're. One of them was a 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:47.080 dead kid um, a little fourteen month old Charles whose 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.480 mom had been feeding him salt and kept bringing him 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:52.399 back to the hospital and doctors had no idea what 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.400 was going on, and eventually he died. The other one 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:58.160 was a little girl, right. Yeah, her name was Kay 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:02.080 and she was six and she was admitted twelve times 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.600 for a urinary tract infection, treated with all kinds of 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.200 antibiotics and none of them ever worked. And that's obviously 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.879 the doctors were like, something's going on here, or at 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:16.119 least Roy Meadow was well. He wrote a study about 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.760 both of these cases, called it Munchausen by Proxy and 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.280 just basically like changed everything. Yeah, I mean you took 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:27.919 this fairly obscure disease um and turned it into this huge, 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:36.280 almost hysterical entity. Yeah. One of the problems is if 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:39.880 you are suspected of this, at least in the States, 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:42.560 and I think the UK is big on it too. 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.680 But if you're suspected of this um, all a physician 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.679 has to do is say, uh, you know, called Family 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.280 and Children's Services or whatever you call it, county or state, 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.440 and say, I think I have a Munchausen m case. Here. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.240 A social worker comes, takes your kid, and then you 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.600 go through the hoops to prove that you don't have it. Right, 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.960 the burden of proof is on the parent who's been accused. Yeah, 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:09.639 this is a tricky one. We got We'll talk about 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.320 this doctor well we can talk about him right now. Southall, Yeah, 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:18.200 Dr David Southall in England, very controversial guy who conducted 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:23.640 some hidden video experiments surveillance in the nineties and UH 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.760 in hospitals. So what he would do was he would 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.800 videotape these parents inflicting harm on their kids for cases 0:23:30.800 --> 0:23:33.880 that they suspected. It was Monkhausen and in the end 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:38.119 he got thirty three of these UH thirty nine suspected 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:42.480 abusers were prosecuted. Twenty three were diagnosed with f I 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:46.200 I And you think, well that's awesome, but it's also 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.800 like your videotaping someone doing harm to a kid. It 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:53.040 was very, very controversial, and this guy has been removed 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:55.800