1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: And I'm doctor Addi naru Kar, a physician and medical 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: men's time as if it's diamonds, and to treat women's 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: are partnered with or without children, or in a career 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: you for all family structures. We're here to take a 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: our time. Hi, add how are you? Hi? You create 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: to see you as always. I think this is going 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: to be one of my favorite episodes because today we're 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: really talking about not shipping where we're eating in a 18 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: time when we are shipping where we as the really 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: good phrase goes, We've talked a bit about boundaries in 20 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: the home, but we haven't really talked about them or 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: explored them, and they're in full entirety biological boundaries, metaphysical boundaries. 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: What that means to be in a physical space, to 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: have mental space, to have as we said, spiritual space, 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: whatever space you need. We want to talk about that 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: today and how creating real authentic space for yourself requires boundaries. 26 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about boundaries when I was talking 27 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: to two amazing people that were in my fair Place study, 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: Leanna and Christian. But I remember speaking to them about 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: what their life during COVID felt like, and even before 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: at Leanna was saying that as a mom of four 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: kids and they were home schooling their children, like so 32 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: many of us, that her life felt like a conveyor belt. 33 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: She used this conveyor belt metaphor that things kept on 34 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: coming at her and she was trying to pick them 35 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: up and pick them up and pick them up. Reminds 36 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: me of that old school Lucille Ball episode of the 37 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: chocolate balls on a conveyor belt, and she's trying to 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: eat them all really fast because they can't catch them 39 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: as they're flying off fine and you're doing splendidly spat 40 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: up to the point where you almost give up. You 41 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: give up because you can't catch all those chocolate balls. 42 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: And then her husband, Christian said that he never thought 43 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: of his life as a conveyor belt. He thought of 44 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: his life as a plate, and when his plate is full, 45 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: he stops putting things on it and off been women 46 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: are feeling like invariables in my data, and men are 47 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: able to be plates. And so today I really want 48 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: to think about how we can all be plates. I 49 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: want to be a plate. I want to be like 50 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: a dancing plate in the cartoon and being the beast, 51 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: one of the amazing plates that come out during that 52 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: big scene where everyone's dancing and singing. Be our guest. 53 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:33,119 Speaker 1: How can we all be plates? It's so interesting when 54 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: you share that story about Lean and Christian. I think 55 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: about something like multitasking in relation to boundary setting. And 56 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: what's fascinating is that our brains are wired to do 57 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: one thing at a time. And when we say, as 58 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: women more than men, typically we say we're great at multitasking, 59 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: and it's a real badge of honor. In fact, what 60 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: we're doing. It's a scientific misnomer. Multitasking is task switching. 61 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: There's no such thing as multitask. The brain is wired 62 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: to do one thing at a time. Only two percent 63 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: of the population can truly multitask. The rest of us, 64 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: and I include myself in that we're just doing two 65 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: things in rapid succession task switching, and that can have 66 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: lots of profound detrimental effects on the brain. Affects things 67 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: like our cognition, our memory, attention and counterativity, our productivity 68 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: and efficiency. It also decreases their ability to solve complex problems. 69 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but there are a 70 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: lot of complex problems to solve, so we really can't 71 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: afford to multitask. The interesting thing about boundaries, and like 72 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: the human brain, is that we function optimally in our 73 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: brains function optimally when there are clear boundaries, particularly when 74 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: it comes to our roles, and that has been really 75 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: challenging these past couple of years because there are no boundaries. 76 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: There's no physical boundaries. So your desk is right in 77 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: the living room, your children or zoom schooling next to you, 78 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: the kitchen is a few steps away, your partner is 79 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: right there, and so that inability to create physical space 80 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: translates to the inability to create space in the mind, 81 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: and so all of these things pile up on top 82 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: of each other. This is why one of the strategies 83 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: that I suggest to people during this time is to 84 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: fake your commute. The commute is so therapeutic and so 85 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: beneficial for the brain. It's because after we do our 86 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: mornings of getting our children ready for school, getting ourselves ready, 87 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: we have that commute, whether it's five minutes, thirty minutes, 88 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: or an hour, to just reframe and get into the 89 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: head of Okay, now I'm in work mode. And then 90 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: on your commute back home, you're thinking, okay, I'm in 91 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: home mode. But it takes some time. There's that transition 92 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: that has to happen. I call it the book ends, right, 93 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: you know how they kind of compartmentalize things. Without that 94 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: daily commute, we're switching from one thing to the other, 95 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: one thing to the other. We are multitasking in this 96 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: new working from home era, and we don't even know it. 97 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: We are not biologically wired to do that. And that 98 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: is why we're seeing such a rise and unprecedented level 99 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: of burnout. Mental health issues, anxiety, insomnia, depression, really bleak 100 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: statistics because of the inability to create space. A lot 101 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: of it is societal and forced upon us. But prior 102 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: to this particular moment was just not as acute. But 103 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: we're really feeling that pressure cooker now. Well, I think 104 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: that's so important because people are literally shipping where they eat. 105 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: I had women tell me that they were having lunch 106 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: in the bathroom, hiding from their families because their partners 107 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: took up the quote unquote good space essential workers. People 108 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: who are not working from home, they still had the 109 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: issue of having space time continuum problems because even if 110 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: they had to commute, their children in many cases weren't 111 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: having a commute, and so it was very confusing and 112 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: in that way to be able to have their head 113 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: at home. So this is a metaphorical space thing. Thinking 114 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: about home all the time while also being at work 115 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: is a very highly stressful thing as well. And so 116 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: I think regardless of whether you are physically in a 117 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: chair on zoom or whether you have to still commute, 118 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: but your other family members are not settled and compartmentalized 119 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: the way that they used to be, it's feeling like 120 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: everything is this metaphorical shipping where you eat. And I 121 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: love your idea of bookends because I think that's really important. 122 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: I like to think a lot about space, metaphorical space 123 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: so if you don't have physical space, which many of 124 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: us don't right now, it's sort of all blending into one. 125 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: It requires an urgency about creating boundaries and other ways 126 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: through self talk, through decisions we make, through actions we take. 127 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: And so I wonder if you could talk a little 128 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,559 Speaker 1: bit about what other actions are you seeing people take 129 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: that are helpful to start protecting their boundaries. And I 130 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: know our guests Dr ever Thornton is going to be 131 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: helping us with that as well, But I wonder what 132 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: you're seeing out there. We're really facing this shadow pandemic, 133 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: which is the pandemic of mental health and burnout. The 134 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: statistics are bleak. Seven out of ten workers say that 135 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: this is the most stressful time of their entire professional careers. 136 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: Se people have at least one feature of burnout, and 137 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: about six think that the pandemic has been a culprit. 138 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: What's really fascinating about this lack of boundaries, pressure cooker 139 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: burnout situation is that we used to think that it 140 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: was the typical features of burnout, right apathy, feeling disengaged 141 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: from work, increased error, sporedom, lack of productivity. Yes, of 142 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: course those things are happening but more and more, what 143 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: we're seeing is that there is an inability to disconnect 144 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: from work, which is an atypical feature of burnout. People 145 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: have that, so they might not even recognize it as 146 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: burnout because they think of burnout is so I don't 147 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: really want to do work, I'm not into it. But 148 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: in fact, the inability to disconnect is something that is 149 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: so prevalent right now. It is also because of our 150 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: physical structure. We're working at home, we're parenting at the 151 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: same time. These are impossible demands. Well, thank you for that. 152 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: I think that's really important. We are at a place 153 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: now where burnout is um not going to be solved 154 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: by just taking that walk around the block. It's really 155 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: this practice, so not doing the commun once, but faking 156 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: a commune if your home every day, adding practices to 157 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: your life and also existentially, I would add that to me, 158 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: a true boundary is being interested in your own life. 159 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: And when you're interested in your own life and you 160 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: take actions that signal you're interested in your own life. 161 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: We talked about unicorn space like a dance class or 162 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: a pottery workshop, or a mixology experience, or an axe 163 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: throwing experience, or a bullrading experience. It can go on 164 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: and on and on. When you start taking actions that 165 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: show and signal you're interested in your own life, it 166 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: really can be a start of becoming curious again, of 167 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: becoming in love with your life again. In a way, 168 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: I think that so many of us who were languishing 169 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: last year have thought we could give that up and 170 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: that would get us more time. But I actually think 171 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: when we took that off our plate, these things that 172 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: make us come alive, actually think that our boundaries that worse. 173 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: That's what I'm hearing from the data that when I 174 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: took things off my plate for me, I thought I 175 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: would gain more time back to do everything else for 176 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: everybody else. But actually it's I don't. I'm just filling 177 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: my days with more hedonistic well being. I'm doomscrolling Twitter more, 178 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: I'm drinking more. So it's not like taking off the 179 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: things that we do for ourselves helps us create boundaries. 180 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: I actually think it makes it harder to create boundaries. 181 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: I often think about stress or burnout or that pressure 182 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: cooker situation as a tea kettle, and we are that 183 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: tea kettle, and so you are sitting on that hot stove, 184 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: the temperatures way up and we are building up steam. 185 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: And that's where we can all relate to that metaphor. 186 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: Because we feel it. We often try to adjust the 187 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: knob to decrease the heat, and in many instances we 188 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: can do that if it's an acute situation. But right 189 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: now these are forces out of our control. We can't 190 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: adjust the heat. So what can we do. We can 191 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: open up that lever to blow off that steam. And 192 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: it takes effort to pull up that lever to blow 193 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: off that steam, but it's that doing. And so with 194 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: all of these examples that you've given, Eve, it's all 195 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 1: in the doing. When you do better, you feel better. 196 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: But it has to be a practice, it has to 197 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: be consistent. Our brain is a muscle when the more 198 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: you use it, the better and stronger it becomes. The 199 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: other thing when we're creating new habits to combat burnout 200 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: and stress is to really think about decision fatigue, especially 201 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: now we are so tapped or really running on fumes 202 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: all of us. And so if you were to say 203 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to do this twice a week, chances are 204 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: you won't get to it. Just like your research has shown, 205 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to start something new when you are 206 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: psychologically not in the best place. That is why you 207 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: have to incorporate something small, something new that is small 208 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: into your day every single day, so becomes a habit. 209 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: We have to think about this as our mental health 210 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: hygiene and incorporating these small nuggets into our daily lives 211 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: because these small, instrumental changes have a big impact on 212 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: the brain. And what I'll end on before we introduce 213 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: our wonderful guest is that I actually think when you 214 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: think about boundaries, there's two words, and I love my literations, 215 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: this one is two a's. I think of boundaries as 216 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: a combination of something active when you set a boundary. 217 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: The word set is a verb, so it's something active 218 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: and it's also something that requires attention. So when you 219 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: think of it, if you're being active in something that 220 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: requires sustained attention, then you're helping yourself create a boundary. 221 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: That to me is how practically a boundary looks. I've 222 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: created a boundary when I am an active pursuit and 223 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: I have sustained attention to something that I decided I 224 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: wanted to have sustained attention on. So if you're not 225 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: feeling active in this way, we're talking about, or you 226 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: don't believe you have the ability to pay attention. That's 227 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: also a way of deducing that you probably are not 228 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: there yet in creating boundaries. So one other little ritual 229 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: that I've been doing d because you know how much 230 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: I love burning things, is that I've been setting a 231 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: candle next to my desk and lighting a candle for 232 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: the times where I want to have a boundary where 233 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: I'm intentional about saying I'm now an active pursuit of 234 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: something I want to pay attention to, and then I 235 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: blow out the candle when I go and have to 236 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: re enter society for things that other people want me 237 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: to pay attention to. It's almost like starting a timer, 238 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: but in a way that smells better than setting a 239 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: timer on your phone. Yeah, you're creating a sense of intention. 240 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: That force of intention fuels you. It's also a good 241 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: tell for others if they're watching you. Never alone right 242 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: now in our homes, So if someone walks by you 243 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: and wants to interrupt you, they say, oh, no, mom 244 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: has that candle, and I can't bother her my candle 245 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: is burning. So I think that's a great metaphor to 246 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: leave us on as our guest joins us today. Dr 247 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: Amber Thornton is a boundary expert. She's a clinical psychologist, 248 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: motherhood wellness consultant and helps empower working parents everywhere to 249 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: reimagine their working home life. She's gonna be talking with 250 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: us after the break. We're so excited to be joined 251 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: now by Dr Amber Thornton. Dr Thornton is a boundary expert. 252 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: She's a clinical psychologist, motherhood wellness consultant and helps power 253 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: working parents everywhere to reimagine their working home life. And 254 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: perhaps our listeners will find it comforting to know that 255 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: even our best boundary experts are an exempt from space issues. 256 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: She's joining us today from her downstairs office while her 257 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: kids are home upstairs. Hi Amber, thank you for being here. 258 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: Hi Amber, thank you so much for having me. I'm 259 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: really excited for this conversation. So Amber. I love your 260 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: tagline redefining motherhood one boundary at a time. That really 261 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: resonated with me. One of my first questions to you 262 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: is why our boundaries important? As women, we are often 263 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: socialized to one just think about the other first. We're 264 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: always told that if we have children, are our kids 265 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: are more important? If we are partners our partners are 266 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: more important in their careers, are more important, and so 267 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: we just grow up learning that we need to put 268 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: other people's needs first. We become really good anticipating the 269 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: needs of other people, and we don't learn how to 270 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: differentiate ourselves from the needs of other people, or the 271 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: desires of other people, or even other people's ideas for us. 272 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: And so that's why those boundaries are so important, because 273 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: if we don't have those, we will continue to operate 274 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: in a way that prioritizes everyone else and really neglects ourselves. 275 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: And so we need those boundaries as reminders to take 276 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: care of ourselves, but also to just remind us where 277 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: we begin, where our children begin, where we end, so 278 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: that we can really take care of ourselves. You give 279 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: us three steps to setting boundaries, and it's such a 280 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: difficult thing to do because we have to learn how 281 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: to say no. But how do we start, How do 282 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: we start setting the boundary? And what are the steps 283 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: to doing it? The first thing is really to just 284 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: listen to yourself. Oftentimes, when we need to set a boundary, 285 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: we know that there's this voice inside sometimes that's saying, hey, 286 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: there's something here that's not right. There's something here that 287 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: doesn't feel good, and we have to just really like 288 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: respect and honor that because again, as women and mothers 289 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: were socialized too not trust the little voice inside, to 290 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: not trust our intuition, and so really acknowledging that, but 291 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: then also really trusting and respecting what it's trying to 292 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: tell you. It's real, it's valid, there's nothing wrong with it, 293 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: and it's okay to move forward with setting a boundary. 294 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: And then once you learn how to trust yourself and 295 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: understand that inner voice, then we get to the place 296 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: of respecting ourselves or feeling that we're worthy enough to 297 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: deserve the boundary. And then that third most critical step 298 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: is saying no, which is like we're like a train 299 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: that's moving and then suddenly just come to a screeching hall. 300 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: I was a former people pleaser. I still am, and 301 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: I just wanted to ask you about that as we 302 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: talk about this need to people please, but then moving 303 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: past that and being able to say no. Definitely. People 304 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: pleasing can be a consequence of something negative happening to 305 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: you or around you or near you when you were 306 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: younger or in the past. For some people, it could 307 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: be the result of a trauma they've experienced. Girls, oftentimes, 308 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: when they're growing up, they're taught explicitly and implicitly that 309 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: it's not okay to be honest about how you feel. 310 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: We're taught to make sure everyone's okay, don't want to 311 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: hurt their feelings, don't ruffle any feathers, and our nose 312 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: are scary. Our nose are not okay. Our nose make 313 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: people uncomfortable, and we, unfortunately are not taught how to 314 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: sit with the discomfort that might come when someone's not 315 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: happy with us. No one teaches us, okay, well, this 316 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: is what it means when someone is upset with you, 317 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: and that's okay. When you said someone is not happy 318 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: with you, my heart started to count and I was like, 319 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: who's not happy with you? Right now? Exactly? Don't like 320 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: I don't want somebody to be not happy with me. 321 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: So it's creating a visceral response even as you say it, 322 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: and it's just the hypothetical. My heart is pounding exactly Automatically, 323 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: we get this visceral feeling of like, oh, I've done 324 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: something wrong or how do I fix it? When really 325 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: it's okay for people to not be pleased with you, 326 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: it's okay for them to not like you or be 327 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: approving of what you're doing. That all of that is okay. 328 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: And how do we learn to say no? Practice? It's 329 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: so simple, and I know people are going to be 330 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: upset with me when I say that, but truly you 331 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: have to just do it. There's no step really that 332 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: I can give you. It's truly just practice. And so 333 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: one way to make it a little bit easier to 334 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: start is say no to the things that feel simple efforts. So, 335 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: for instance, there might be a friend saying, hey, I 336 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 1: want to come over, and whether it's because of the pandemic, 337 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: whether it's because we're just tired, whatever it is, and 338 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: being okay saying hey, I would love for you to 339 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: come over, but I'm just feeling up to it. Really, truly, 340 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: it comes down to the practice. Really do it. Practice, 341 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: hold yourself accountable, and maybe if you ask someone to 342 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: hold you accountable so that they can cheer you on 343 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: and support you as your practicing is. We have a 344 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: group threat of my college friends and we share in 345 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: there when we're about to decline an opportunity or say 346 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: no to something. And so when you talk about practice, 347 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: I think it's so important because it reminds me that 348 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: people will say to me, you know, I said that 349 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: five years ago, and I expect them to still remember 350 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: that that was my boundary. But it reminds you of saying, well, 351 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: you know, I exercised once when I was eighteen, and 352 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm forty five now and I'm supposed to still be fit. 353 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: I mean, if you say that, we would all laugh, 354 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: right because we know that it exercises the practice. But 355 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: when it comes to boundary setting, we look at it 356 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: as a one and done. You know, well I told 357 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: them no, so why are they asking me again? Sometimes 358 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: you have to keep practicing. It's absolutely not a one 359 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: and done because I think also takes time for other 360 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: people to learn and understand your boundaries. They might not 361 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: hear it the first time, and so you have to 362 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: continue to reiterate. Dr Amber, We've talked a lot about 363 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: friendships and setting boundaries in our personal life, but what 364 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: about in our professional life? How can we say no 365 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: to increasing work responsibilities? Yeah, that's a tough one because 366 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: right now, so much of our lives are blurred. Like 367 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: even for me, right now, my kids are here and 368 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: I can hear them upstairs. They're the but you know, 369 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: it's funny because I think that someone was knocking on 370 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: my door as your child was jumping on the ceiling, 371 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: and I was thinking, there's just like a This is 372 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: like a symphony of interruption to try to keep us 373 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: honest in our conversation about how hard it could be 374 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: to set a boundary, especially right now, things are so blurred. 375 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: So for instance, I'm working right now in my basement 376 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: and my children are upstairs running rampant, and so I 377 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: think finding the balance between the personal and then the professional, 378 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: putting some boundaries around the professional. That can be really 379 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: scary because sometimes we are fearful that if we have 380 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: to be honest or set a boundary, that that might 381 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: mean a missed opportunity, or it might mean that we 382 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: are not viewed in the same way that we previously work. Unfortunately, 383 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: it really leads to a lot of us hiding so 384 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: much of ourselves in our professional fronts. And I hope 385 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: that we become more comfortable with not completely blurned into 386 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: but realizing that one doesn't take away from the other. 387 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: What helps me is to think about our values, right 388 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: and so you know, for me, I'm one that really 389 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: values my family. I love my children. I value my 390 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: well being and I also really love my career, and 391 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: I'm really careful to make sure that one doesn't take 392 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: away from the other. And so if I do have 393 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: to set up a boundary professionally, I'm reminding myself that 394 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: this boundary is for the greater good of my health, 395 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: my family, myself, and it's not at the expense of 396 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: anything that I have going on. You know, you truly 397 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: do walk the talk, Dr Amber, because in your email 398 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 1: response it is like a gem. You are teaching women 399 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: how to set boundaries through your lived experience. But what 400 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: is it? Yeah, tell us what is I I think 401 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: add was the one who got your email response, so 402 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: I want to hear what it is. I put away 403 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: message up maybe about a month ago now because I 404 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: realized I was constantly checking my emails on my phone 405 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: and it was just taking so much of my time. 406 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: So I put up your way message and it basically 407 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: just says, hey, I've got your message, but I'm only 408 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: checking my email box on Mondays and Thursdays. This is 409 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: me setting my boundary and practicing bolden firm boundaries. I 410 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: hope you appreciate it, and I'll talk too soon. Wow. 411 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: But I've I've actually got a lot of good feedback 412 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: about if people see it and they're like, oh wow, 413 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: I want to do that too. So I'm glad it 414 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: can encourage and inspire someone else because it helps me 415 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: a lot. I our team when we got that, it 416 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: was so affirming. We're like, well, we got the right 417 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: expert about boundaries. If that's I guess if that's your email, right, 418 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: That's what I'm thinking right now, and I'm thinking what 419 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: days would I want to check my emails? Because I 420 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: think it's something I think I'm gonna try. It's definitely 421 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: a practical step, and I think that's the last question 422 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you. How do boundaries interact with expectations? 423 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: Because when I think about fair play, where it started from, 424 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: it was really an understanding that in my work is 425 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: someone who looks at behavioral design, one of the things 426 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: to a well functioning organization is explicitly defined expectations. And 427 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: so I want to understand if boundaries help us set 428 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: other people's expectations, or if it's that the expectations that 429 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: we set for ourselves then have to be communicated in 430 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: a boundary, or is it a big circle, It's a 431 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: huge circle. It's both of those things absolutely again. Once 432 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: we can work through the fear of setting our boundary, 433 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: it makes life easier for everyone, including ourselves. Because people 434 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: didn't know what to expect from us, we know what 435 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: to expect from ourselves. Once people learn our boundaries, we 436 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: then can have a better understanding of what to expect 437 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: from them. It makes everything, like you said, much more 438 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: clear because we don't have to guess, we don't have 439 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: to be surprised when we can express how we feel 440 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: what we need. It just makes um communication a lot 441 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: more accessible in lots of clarity, and that's always a 442 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: good thing. Well, you read my mind because my word 443 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: of is clarity. So what a beautiful gift to leave 444 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: all of us with. So I really want to thank 445 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: you so much for being with us today. We love 446 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: your work. And the last question is where can people 447 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: find you if they want to learn more about how 448 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: to set boundaries. Well, I'm so glad to be here, 449 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: so thank you so much for having me. Anyone can 450 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: find me at bounced Working Mama dot com. Also, I'm 451 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: always on Instagram at dr and Bert Thornton. And then 452 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: we also have an Instagram and pay for bounced working 453 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: Mama too. Hi, It's me Eve. Are you a therapist, 454 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: counselor coach or nutritionists that has thought about introducing the 455 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: fair Play system directly to your clients? Well, now you 456 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: can come and roll in the fair Play Method, a 457 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: new online program that provides you with hands on training, 458 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: a ton of valuable resources, and a community of certified 459 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: professionals for all part of a greater cultural movement for 460 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: systemic change. Learn more about how you can help your 461 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: clients shift the domestic workload in their own homes towards 462 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: more equity, more fairness, and greater connectivity. Visit fair play 463 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: life dot com. So, as you may know, now, every 464 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: episode of this podcast ends with an action item for 465 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: you are listeners that we call a time out. This 466 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: is really a time for you to focus on yourself 467 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: and reflect on what you're hearing today. And we're starting 468 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: the conversation first with ourselves and then ultimately with those 469 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: around us. So it seems to me that a lot 470 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about in time Out is actually 471 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: about boundaries. And I know we started with Greg McEwen 472 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: and we keep laddering up to get to this place 473 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: of Dr Amber Thornton where we're talking about space, physical 474 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: and mental space, and how hard that is to come by. 475 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: I want to understand a d D. What is the 476 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: power of mental and physical space on the brain. What 477 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 1: does it do for us when we create physical and 478 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: mental space to have a room of one's own the 479 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: idea of Virginia Woolf a hundred years ago that we 480 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: needed a metaphorical physical room of one's own if we 481 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: wanted to write and ideate and create and think and be. 482 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: What is that power of space? Our brain function best 483 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: when there's compartmentalization, and that absence of boundary and compartmentalization 484 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: reeks havoc on us. So in an era when it's 485 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: really difficult to carve out that brain space and physical 486 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: space to be a worker and a parent and a 487 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: spouse since everything is happening in the same place. One 488 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: of the strategies that I've said before that I like 489 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: to use is a fake commute. And so since all 490 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: of us are working from home, you know that magical 491 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: twenty minutes that you would give yourself for a commute. 492 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: It may help you get into a new headspace even 493 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: though you are coming back into the same physical environment. 494 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: Another technique that we can use to create a little 495 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: bit more space in the mind, in the body, and 496 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: also in our physical space is avoid checking your phone 497 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: first thing in the morning. It is what we all do. 498 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: Our phones have become our alarm clocks. They sit next 499 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: to us on the nightstand. We wake up before eyes 500 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: are even fully open, and a tune to the morning light. 501 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: We are scrolling. We think of it as a benign, 502 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: innocuous thing that we do just to get ready for 503 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: the day. These are not benign entities, email, work responsibilities, 504 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: social media. They have a direct hit on our dopamine, 505 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: our serra tonin and our neuro transmitters. So instead, keep 506 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: your phone either in a different room if you can 507 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: manage it, but you can graduate to that level, or 508 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: just away from your nightstand where you have to physically 509 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: get up out of bed to check your phone in 510 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: the morning. And then the final thing I will say, 511 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: eve is the reason that we check our phones so 512 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: incessantly during the day right now, probably more than we 513 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: ever have, is because our bodies and our brains are 514 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: prime for survival and pandemic stoke our primal fears. Checking 515 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: the news, scrolling through social media is a primal urge. 516 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: It's our way to feel safe. What's happening though it's 517 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: negative feedback loop. We scroll, we see something that's dangerous 518 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: or news headline, and it revs up our dopamine response 519 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: and our fear cascade and our bodies. And so to 520 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: really combat that, we need to create a little bit 521 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: of space to understand how our bodies are responding. The 522 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: space time continuum is collapsing on all of us. So 523 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: this is our superhero episode. So what I think would 524 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: be fun for today's time out exercise? If you're listening 525 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: on the road, wait to pull over, but grab a journal, 526 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: grab a piece of paper. We want you to take 527 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: a time out today to commit to one space ritual. 528 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: And we don't mean suiting up for average space. But 529 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: as a d D said, pick one. We'll give you 530 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: four choices and then report us. If you don't like 531 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: one of these four choices, tell us what you do 532 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: to create a space ritual. We'll share it in our 533 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: show notes. I want to say one other anecdote before 534 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: we give you your choices. I had this really one 535 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: A full nurse tell me that for her being an 536 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: industrial fluorescent lights all day, it was really really hard 537 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: for her. And so if this one amazing woman told 538 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: me that to create space on her commute, what she's 539 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: been doing is taking a camera and taking a picture 540 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: in nature on the way to work, at lunch and 541 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: on our way home. When she does that, instead of 542 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: faking a commute, because she still has a commute, it 543 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: still allows her to separate her industrial fluorescent light, harsh 544 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: job as a caregiver during the days of nurse with 545 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: the communing with nature that she'd like to do with 546 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: her family, her friends. So I love that. So here's 547 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: your four choices. Your four choices are create a fake commute, 548 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: as a d D said that walk that separates your 549 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: work and your home life. If you're working from home. 550 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: If you're not working from home, maybe try that idea 551 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: of taking a picture or some ritual to separate you 552 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: from your job. For me, I light a candle. That's 553 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: your second choice. When I'm concentrating and paying attention in 554 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: my physical space, I actually light a candle that way, 555 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: I have to physically blow it out when I want 556 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: to leave a space of attention. Three, your choice is 557 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: to put your phone in another room or to not 558 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: check it when you first get up in the morning, 559 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: and fourth, if you can, we're going to go back 560 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: to Dr Amber Thornton's technique of creating some version of 561 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: an out of office email that allows you a little 562 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: bit more space to respond to other people when you 563 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: decide to, as opposed to reactively when they want your response. 564 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: So space is hard, but once you create it, it's 565 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: time to decide how you want to use that amazing, 566 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: glorious space. And that's what we're gonna be talking about 567 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: next week with create of professional and most amazing designer 568 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: and human being, Justina Blakeney. She's going to talk to 569 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: us about how to occupy space with intention and how 570 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: to get curious about our lives. Thank you for listening 571 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: to Time Out, a production of I Heeart podcasts and 572 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the New York 573 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space. Follow 574 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: me on social media at Eve Rodsky and learn more 575 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: about our work at fair Play Life. And I'm Dr 576 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: Addi Narukar, a Harvard physician with a specialty and stress resilience, burnout, 577 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: and mental health. Follow me on social media at dr 578 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: add ne Rucar and find out more about my work 579 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: at doctor a d D dot com. That's d R 580 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: A d I t I dot com. Our Hello Sunshine 581 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: team is Amanda farrand Aaron Stover and Jennifer Yonker. Our 582 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,919 Speaker 1: I Heart Media team is Ali Perry, Dinner for Bassett 583 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: and Jessica Crnschitch. We hope you all love taking a 584 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: much needed time out with us today. Listen and subscribe 585 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: to Time Out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 586 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows.