WEBVTT - John Flansburgh of They Might Be Giants 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:05.480 Hello everyone, and welcome to Inside the Studio on iHeart Radio. 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.440 My name's Jordan runt Dog. But enough about me, let 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:10.720 me tell you about my guest. He's one half of 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:14.840 a creative partnership that stretches back nearly forty years. Together, 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.439 they're one of the most unique and unpredictable voices in 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.520 alternative rock, spanning genres. With air tight harmonies and avant 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.200 garde humor, they're sort of like gen X's answer to 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:28.040 the Bonzo Dog DoD band tracks like Particle Man and 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.040 Istanbul not constantinople first during them attention from MTV in 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.800 the early nineties, but these days you never quite know 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.239 when they'll pop up. In addition to sixteen studio albums, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.839 they're creative endeavors have included jingles for toys and themes 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:46.479 for Beloved Sitcom's animated appearances on Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network, 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.360 and contributions to the soundtrack for the Broadway productions SpongeBob 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.680 square Pants the Musical. Now, they're gearing up to release 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.240 their latest record on November twelve, titled Book. Yes. The 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.000 records titled Book It's informed by the hellish realities of 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.080 the last two years with their anxieties, often channeled for 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.600 comedic effect. Yes, we laugh to keep from crying. The 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.680 album Book is being released alongside a book called Book. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.840 The one four page hardcover volume features original work by 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.119 Brooklyn Street photographer Brian Carlson, alongside song lyrics said among 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.920 typographical illustrations by graphic designer Paul Sair. Today we're gonna 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.920 talk about the book Book, the album book, the upcoming 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.480 toward to celebrate the thirtieth anniversary of their breakthrough album Flood, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.080 and also we're gonna talk a lot about the Beatles. 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:35.759 So buckle up. It's my pleasure to welcome the mighty 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.720 John Flansburgh of They Might Be Giants. I hope you 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:46.399 enjoy our conversation. Well, first things first, you have a 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.440 new album coming out called Book, which is fittingly accompanied 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:53.440 by a book which features text, design, lyrics from the 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.920 songs and Brian Carlson Street photography. How did this collection 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.040 begin for you? Did you create the book and did 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.480 that inform them music or is the music the impetus 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.880 for the book? Well, like so many things that They 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.080 Might Be Giants, there was absolutely no master plan. We 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.760 kind of backed into it um in an odd way. 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.040 You know, we've made a lot of albums and I 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:19.080 think we like the album format and uh just you know, 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.320 making sets of songs. It's an interesting way to present 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.000 your work, and I think it's a very music centric 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.760 way of of presenting your work, and in a funny way, 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:32.200 by making this big package, in this big book, we're 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.040 the the immediate side effect is it's just bringing a 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.760 lot more attention to the idea of making an album 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:44.040 project um and so in the same way that All 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.760 Things Must Pass or you know, Sign of the Times 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.520 or any any album from your from your childhood if 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:56.160 you're crazy old like me, reminds you of like that 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.360 kind of music centric listening experience. The whole idea of 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.840 book is to uh kind of pull you into the 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:08.440 album deeper and uh, you know, finding the balance of 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:12.440 visual elements that would work in a book and compliment 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.760 the music was a little bit tricky, but fortunately we've 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.040 been We've been collaborating with this really amazing graphic designer, 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:24.079 Paul Sair for the last fiften or fifteen years, and 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.079 he's you know, he's actually a kind of a big 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:30.600 wheel in the world of graphic design, and he his 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.520 publisher had and he and Paul had talked about this 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.640 idea of doing or they might be Giant's book. And 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.000 I think the first thing that most people think of 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.200 when they hear about like rock books is like, oh, 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.320 it'll be like a scrap book. It will be like 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.240 like a little strolled down of memory lane. And I 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.760 think that's exactly what most people assume whatever book we 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.120 did would be, because that's the kind of thing that 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.560 bends that have been around for a long time do. Um, 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.680 this is a little bit more unexpected, but I think 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.600 it's it's a it's it's much more interesting and it's 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:02.800 a The process was a bunch more interesting for us. 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.760 I mean working with Brian and working with Paul. Paul 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:10.000 the Paul created all these sort of poetry concrete or 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:15.480 concrete poetry lyric images while he was typing on IBM 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:20.719 selectric typewriter by hand, and then created all these wild 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:25.960 designs on on on paper And it's very hard to describe, 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.040 but it's kind of easy to understand if you actually 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.560 see it. But um, it's it's it was a really 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:35.120 fun project. Um. I guess the truth is is like 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:37.719 a question we do get asked a lot is like 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.480 how do you keep going? And I think the true 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.040 answer is we keep going because we actually are going. 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.279 We're not just doing the same stuff over and over again. 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.960 I mean just the book just as an object is 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.400 absolutely gorgeous. I mean just the fabric cover and sort 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.000 of the embossed type that. I mean, it's so cool. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:58.760 And I mean you've been working with Paul, I mean 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:02.000 back since join us with the with the pink with 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:07.839 the pink cardboard. Um yeah yeah, monster truck hurse, Yeah, 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.480 that Paul has been you know, Paul is really a 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.200 kindred spirit. I feel extremely lucky that we found him. 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:14.839 I mean, the truth of the matter is like I've 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.839 I've started in graphic design, uh when I was a kid, 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.560 and that was kind of my fallback, you know, day 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.560 job in New York when I when we first started 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.839 the band, I was working in publishing houses and uh, 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:31.440 you know, there's a there's sort of like a graphic 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.240 sensibility that they might be giants. That's kind of consistent. 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.200 But I've collaborated with a lot of designers over the years, 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.520 and I feel like in a way, um, I kind 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.039 of burnt out designers working with them, you know, like, 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:48.080 well I'll be with you know, a designer for a 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.880 couple of years, and at a certain point they're just like, man, 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:53.640 this is like more than I can handle. Like it's 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.039 just because a lot of times to do stuff with 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.320 the band, it's just requires a level of time that 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.800 is uh, it's much. It's it's it's a little more 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:07.599 intense than doing, uh than doing like a regular graphic job, 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:09.560 which can you know, it's usually done in a couple 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.200 of days, Like I think, I I really ask a 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.560 lot of people. Fortunately, the thing about Paul is that 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.159 he just has boundless energy and and doesn't mind. He's 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.159 unafraid of doing things that take extraordinary amounts of time. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:24.920 I mean it really shows in this bookment. What was 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.360 the process, Like I'm actually choosing the images to juxtapose 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.280 with the lyrics. I mean there was some great I 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:31.799 mean the one I want to give too much away, 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.000 but the one with the with the skeletons, I really 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.320 enjoy that. That is an amazing photograph. Well, I mean, Brian, 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:41.440 it has done the time that it takes to be 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.000 a successful street photographer. I mean the times I've talked 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.520 to him, I've I've never been in face to face, 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.479 but I FaceTime to him a few times, and inevitably 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.680 he's outside, he's got a camera, you know, he's he's 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:57.440 like hitting the streets. He's always uh, preparing himself to 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.440 find out what photographs are out there. I think all 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.880 any image in the book probably represents hours, if not days, 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.240 of waiting for a photograph to happen. Because when you 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.000 see the book, there is this thing about it where 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.280 it's like a lot of times it's very much a 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.000 moment and um, and you can't just you can't just 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.400 decide you're gonna you know, those moments are gonna happen. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:27.320 So it's it's an interesting challenge for him. Um. He 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:29.920 was very generous with the photographs that he had taken 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.000 in recent years. I mean, this is all we started, 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.960 really embarked in the book right as right before Lockdown happened. 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:41.480 So we have we so we had something to pour 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:47.239 our energies into once we were in lockdown. Um and Uh, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:52.280 it was really mostly about finding the images that combined 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.720 with the song lyrics would kind of have a multiplier effect, 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.120 like something that would pull something out of the lyric 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:05.320 and amplify. Um. But yeah, the image he has endless 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:10.760 images that are very very mysterious and and kind of enigmatic. 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:17.920 The the thing about making books in the modern world 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:22.920 now is, um, some of the photographs, I mean, he's, he's, 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.640 he doesn't do that many photographs that are really just portraits. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.640 But there's this problem in the twenty one century with 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.000 permissions and street photography being published in a book, is 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.480 that you still have rights issues. And that was something 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.520 that Paul was kind of tuned into, something that I 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.960 was not expecting or thinking about, and we were we 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:42.560 were kind of we kind of put together a first 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.760 draft of images, and there was a clutch of really 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:53.600 powerful photographs that just were too uh too risky because 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.120 you could get you can get sued for defamation, which 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.320 is something that I never even considered. Um, if you 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.679 if you have a gallery show and are putting up 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:09.120 photographs of people street photography and show people's faces, that's 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:14.600 totally protected artistic expression. But the actual publishing of a 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.240 book with somebody's face in it is not unless they're 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.080 a public figure. And none of these people are public figures. 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.040 So there are a couple of amnages that we kind 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:24.679 of shied away from, but that they were few and 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:28.880 far between, and we actually got the sort of verbal 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.760 permission from a few people that are in the photographs 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.600 that Brian knew, just to give them the heads up 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:37.480 that the book was coming, and they were fine with 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.520 it because they're just they're young people are just doing 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.760 crazy stuff. I mean, I hadn't thought of this until 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.680 you said it. But there is a spontaneity to the book. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.320 I mean, you you hear of found poetry, these photos 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.640 are found moments, and even with the with the IBM 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.640 S electric, there's something very spontaneous about, you know, not 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.800 getting all the types set exactly, you know, fitting in 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.640 with a publisher. But it's it's an it's an act 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.800 done in the moment, and I really came through in 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.920 the book. Yeah, I mean, it's it was you know, 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.920 we made a bunch of very specific decisions. I think 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:10.080 we we were nervous about doing something that might appear messy, 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.360 and uh, you know, we just made some choices and 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.440 kind of stuck to those and I think the book 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.679 is better for that. It's a it turned out really good. 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.360 I'm proud of it. I mean, getting back to the 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.760 album you mentioned earlier about having fun with sort of 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.840 enjoying the the you know, the act of listening to 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.040 an album as a physical thing. I mean, it's funny 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.680 thinking back to earlier in your career when you had 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.200 the dial a song line, which really kind of seems 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.400 to almost predict streaming services. It was so ahead of 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.679 its time. And now you released your new album on 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.199 eight track, which I believe sold out, you know, and 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.560 vinyl and cassette, Like, yeah, what, what does tell me 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.880 more about sort of the motivation behind releasing uh, your 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.439 new work on these formats that you know? I mean, 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.199 I I listen to most of my music on a 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.040 record player, so I totally get it, but I want 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.200 to hear more about your well, you know, I us 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.840 because we were putting the album out as a book, 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:08.000 but it's also on all other typical formats as well. Um, 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.120 we just thought people were sort of wondering if it 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.120 was only going to be, you know, sold as a 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.319 book with a download, or if it was going to 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:20.200 actually be everywhere else, and uh, we just kind of 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.440 went format crazy. We we we uh decided we were 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:25.200 going to make except, which was like the first time 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.480 we've made a caucet in a really long time. And 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.760 as soon as we put that on sale, it's so 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.719 like crazy, and it was like, really, that's wild, Like 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.679 there actually is a cassette culture out there that's relatively 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:42.000 healthy and uh and then uh, Pete in our management 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:47.920 looked into uh people manufacturing eight tracks and sure enough 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.760 there are actually two different companies now uh pressing eight 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:55.520 tracks in the United States, and uh, you know, I 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.240 mean we made we did the eight tracks against the 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.160 limited edition. I'm sure there are people who are into 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.840 a tracks listening right now who are like, that's that's 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.920 my only thing, that's the thing I care about. You know, 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.160 how can I get one? We made like two and 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.319 fifty of them. And then it was just like the 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.000 truth of it is, it's all of the eight tracks 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.800 are essentially handmade. The guy who the guy that we're 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.400 working with, he I didn't realize that this is how 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.160 they did it. But it's it's actually like almost like 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:27.800 an object lesson in um some future uh what is 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.640 the term? Like real it's it's like an up cycled thing. 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:36.400 He's he's uh, he's taking old eight tracks, cracking them 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:41.440 open and replacing the parts inside them, putting them back together, 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:43.719 and then putting new covers on them. So he's not 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:48.520 they're not manufacturing new shells and new and new cartridges 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.800 for these eight tracks. He's actually rehabbing old ones, which is, 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.640 I guess the only way you can really do it. Um, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.120 I don't think the demand that there's a lot. You 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.040 can buy a lot of views a tracks on eBay 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:06.440 for ten dollars and get a thousand highly nonfunctioning a Trex. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.240 The truth of the matter is a tracks are a 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.280 terrible format just from a mechanical point of view. They 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.199 do not last. But if you're driving around in your 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.040 Pinto or something and you know you gotta it helps, Yeah, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.920 it's it creates the experience. Yeah, I've been. I've been. 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:26.200 I've been watching the Americans during all this lockdown, which 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.640 a show I had never watched before, and you know, 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.319 I was very One of the things that's delightful about 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.000 the show is, Uh, they clearly purchased like a baby 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.720 blue Pinto at the beginning of the filming and every 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:45.440 every fifth exterior scene somewhere is parked this this Pinto. 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:50.080 And Uh, listeners out there, I'm sure many of them 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.920 do not know what a Ford Pinto is, but uh, 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.760 and the reason is because it is a really crummy car. 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:58.800 If you there. There was a time when there are 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.640 probably as many there it explodes, but it also just 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.439 doesn't last. I think they're like classic rustbuckers. Did you 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.240 think about every time you see of Volkswagen Beetle, there 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:14.040 probably was a Ford Pinto manufactured exactly at the same time, 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.000 but none of those cars lasted. You know, think about 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.640 how many old Beetles you see, you see a million. Uh. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.440 You never see Pintos anymore. They just they just didn't 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.160 make it. That's you also never see you never see 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.880 a MC cars anymore either. Well, I mean, you know 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:33.760 you mentioned watching UM the Americans during during lockdown UM. 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:35.600 You know, listening to some of these tracks, I mean 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.920 the single I Can't Remember the Dream uh, and even 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.440 the opening tracks synopsis for Latecomers, there's a sense of 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.600 certain anxiety and some of these songs, and I was 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.800 wondering how much did the pandemic uh play, you know, 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:53.440 impact the music you're working on. Well, I mean, you know, 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:58.240 we I think we as writers, we have a natural 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.880 impulse to just kind of hype every impulse. I mean, 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.400 I think we're if we're writing a song about anxiety, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.560 we tend whatever's kind of naturally in there we also 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:11.720 sort of pump up. And it's I think that's true 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.560 of almost everything. I mean, maybe it's just the nature 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.880 of of writing that you wanted to be as extreme 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.160 as it can be. If you're writing a song about 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.640 being mad about a breakup, you end up writing a 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.800 song about revenge. You know. It's like you tend to 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:31.120 just make more out of things than might be there 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.400 on a regular day. And something I've I've loved about 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.880 your music is that so often there are these gorgeous 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.520 melodies paired with these very kind of anxiety producing lyrics 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.280 that really undercut the merriment of the music. I wanted 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:47.680 to ask you more about, you know, your tendency towards 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:52.000 the sort of lyrical bait and switch. Well, that's something 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.440 that got spotted a while ago, and it wasn't something 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.880 that we really thought about that much. Um, but I 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.840 think it might really come out of trying to figure 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.680 out how to balance the elements within a song. I mean, 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.480 when you're writing a song, you have a lot of 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.080 you have a lot of things at your disposal, Like 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.000 you can, you can balance things. But one thing about 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:21.840 melody that's that's unusual is that even though it might 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:27.000 even though the overall idea of the song might be 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:34.160 quite clearly complicated. Melodies have a way of simplifying your 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.440 emotional response to things. I mean, I don't think I 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.240 don't think our melodies are particularly cheerful, but I think 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.760 we live in a time when melodies are almost an 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.400 endangered species. So it's like writing anything with a song, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.080 any song with with a melody in it, um is 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.400 is UH might might come across as seeming old fashioned, 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:02.560 or or cheerful, or or sentimental. Um So I think 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.840 I think it's something that just kind of crept in there. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.520 I mean, sometimes I wonder if we should, like if 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.840 it would be interesting to do the inverse of that, 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:14.679 like right, really gloomy, kind of do doomy music and 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:19.600 then with extremely happy lyrics. But somehow I don't think 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.920 that's going to work as well. There was an interview 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.879 you gave recently where you talked about I think you 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.119 called it the lab work that goes into UH to 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.119 writing a song, all the all the prep work, kind 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.440 of laying out all the ingredients like a chef before 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.320 you start cooking, Which is such an interesting notion because 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.320 me as somebody who who has never written a song 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.960 in his life. That's something I'd never really occurred to me. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:45.040 I want, what does that process like for you? Well, 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:49.320 you know, the evolution of the recording process is is 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.399 uh pretty baroque at this point. I mean, when people 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.000 were making records in the middle of the last century, 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.040 they were just standing in front of a micro on 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.439 and making a sound, but you know, by either by 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.760 themselves or with a band or whatever. And what happened 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.680 is what went to the record. Um. These days, we're 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:16.240 working with computers and there's an incredible even just making 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.720 a demo, there's there's so many decisions that can be made. 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.399 And you know, the thing about working with computers is 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:29.040 that if you're in that kind of inquiry period, there's 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.320 no time limit, you're never gonna go and say, like, 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.040 I mean, it can be helped to have a time limit, 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.960 because otherwise you you kind of can start going about 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.880 the business of finishing a song. Before you've even started, 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:42.960 you're just like, oh, you know, I want to make 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.040 this this song be really strange and echoy and all. 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.880 And you don't even have a chorus written, and you're 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.720 and you're like swimming around in a reverb sound or 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:58.960 something so um. Sometimes I lean on the inquiry process 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:04.720 of finding sounds as a way to stave off writer's block. 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:11.720 Um but um, it's when you're doing a demo and 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.960 arranging a song. The thing that you really have to 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.240 remember is like all the parts have to fit together. 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.040 You're you're kind of making you're, you're, you're you're tweaking 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.080 out all those little details like whether it's like, for instance, 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.080 like if you're There's a song on the new album 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.119 called Moonbeam Raised that has no and this is not 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:33.399 something that I think people would notice necessarily, Um, but 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:38.200 there's actually no high hat on on the song, and um, 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.280 they're very I think there are very few people, very 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.600 few drummers who would approach doing any pop song and think, oh, 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:48.120 I'm not going to play the high hat on this. 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.280 But one of the things that happens immediately when you 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.680 don't play the high hat is you're making all this 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.440 room for the vocal because the where the high hat 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:59.080 sits in the mix is exactly the same spot as 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:04.399 where a vocal is. In fact, sometimes if um, somebody 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.520 doesn't sing an s in a song will actually just 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.760 grab a closed high hat sound and put it in 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:13.520 where where the s would be because it sounds exactly 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.919 like a human being singing in s um. You know, 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.760 if you if you sing a line like hands and 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.720 you and you swallow this suh, you can just if 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:25.639 you want it to be both, you just grab a 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.000 stray closed high hat and put it in at the 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:33.919 end of the hands. That will sub substitute very nicely 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:38.880 for a well enunciated s. It's a little studio trick 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:42.000 that we learned a long long time ago. Um. I mean, 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:43.840 you can also go back and sing an s. But 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.960 it's like sometimes if you're working on digital stuff, it's 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.760 just it's easy to just grab a strong s from 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.920 a high hat. That's so interesting. Drum machine high hats 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:59.000 work even better. But um, yeah, so so I guess 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.480 we're always thinking about the final product, and you know, 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.000 having recorded a lot of songs, it's you can kind 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:09.560 of get there. Just it's it's it's a fun challenge 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.840 to sort of, uh, you know, keep the sonics interesting. 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.560 I mean, you you're involved in so many different mediums. 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.160 How much of your day is is taken up with music? 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.040 Is it a daily practice for you? Is that something 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.560 that you're always working on or does it depend on 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.000 on your mood and other projects you have going on. Yeah, 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.720 I I basically go to work every day. I mean, 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.520 my my dad was kind of a workaholic, and and 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.000 I think I kind of got hit that kind of 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.720 daily routine from him. He worked at a home office. 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:53.439 He always worked every weekend. Um. Yeah, it's just something 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:55.160 that you know, it's it's fun to do. I mean, 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.399 I think the truth is just like, uh, you know, 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:00.320 as we say in the tour of Us, when things 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:02.639 are not going so great, you wanted to be in 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.880 a band. Um, you know, I feel like incredibly grateful 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.280 that I've I've been able to have like, you know, 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.480 a life making recordings and and doing live shows. It's 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:20.840 like it's incredibly fun and it's it never stops being interesting. Um, 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:23.600 when I don't feel really up to finishing a song 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.320 or or getting in the middle of of working on 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:30.560 a song, I do have this kind of exploratory thing happening, 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.680 and you know, I've got a I've got a I've 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:38.719 got you know, twenty unfinished kind of rhythm. You know. 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:43.399 I think in some ways we John and I probably 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:45.760 have more in common with like hip hop artists who 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.800 have like big libraries of beats stacked up. I think 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:53.159 we have kind of our version of of that kind 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:59.720 of work all not not as many lyric fragments and 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:04.600 progression fragments. We also have these like kind of uh, 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:09.720 just recording ideas, arrangement ideas, musical you know, beats and chords, 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:11.800