WEBVTT - Poker Legend Phil Hellmuth Has Advice That Traders Should Hear 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.320 But knowledge to work and grow your business with c 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.680 i T from transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:10.520 T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.480 small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:27.280 T dot com put Knowledge to Work. Hello and welcome 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.480 to another edition of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:36.480 Wisenhal and I'm Tracy Alloway. Hey, Tracy, remember our episode 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.680 a couple of months ago with Peter Borish about investing 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.080 in trading. Of course, it was a great episode. Yeah, 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.160 that was a really fun one. But there was something 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.760 he said that really stuck with me. I mean, it 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:50.960 was a fascinating conversation, but one of the things that 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:53.720 has really stuck with me in my mind that he 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.640 said when he was talking about the great hedge fund 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.800 traders of all time, whether it's people like Orge Sorrows 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.360 or Paul Tutor Jones, he said, what they really had 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.680 in common, even more than some sort of uncanny knack, 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:12.320 was just a real discipline about survival, real instinct for 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:16.960 risk management, not getting blown up, not destroying themselves. Yeah, 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.520 I remember he said, specifically, the worst thing that can 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.199 happen to you is basically if you lose all your money, 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.800 because then you're you're dead right, You're out of the game. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.720 You're out of the game, exactly right. And so a 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.600 lot of the people that we call legends these days, 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:35.000 that we venerate are people who primarily have survived this 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:37.679 long and somehow they figured out a way to not die, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:43.240 not blow up, and of course in market, uh, pitfalls abound. Yeah, 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.960 I would broadly agree with that. What's the point today? 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.760 Our guest is someone else who has done an extraordinary 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:56.240 job of surviving, of not blowing up, of risk management, 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.360 bank roll management, except um, they're not are not a 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.840 trader per se. Okay, I'm starting to get a little 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.680 bit nervous. Who is it? You should be nervous because 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.480 I know we're gonna be talking about one of the 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.800 one of the topics that which you feel um at 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.960 which you feel the least at ease. But I'll just 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.960 jump right into it. Today we're going to be talking 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.040 to one of the most successful World Series of Poker 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.399 participants ever. He's a phil Hell you youth. He's won 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.800 fourteen bracelets at the World Series of Poker across multiple 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:31.160 tables um. He has made fifty four final tables and 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.239 in his poker career. According to an a m A 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.680 he did on Reddit last year, he's made eighteen million 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.760 dollars playing poker. That number is probably higher since that 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.080 was a year ago. And I think anyone who has 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.320 had this much success in poker clearly has something to 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:53.000 teach people about risk management and bank roll management and 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.280 discipline and keeping their emotions in check, and many of 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.680 the skills that a poker player or that a that 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.800 A eight or need to survive. So, Joe, I'm totally 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.080 on board with the analogy, but let me say in 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.560 all honesty, due to my complete ignorance of the game 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.000 of poker, as well as the fact that I looked 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.880 up Phil's bio online and saw that he's called the 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.480 poker Brat, and then I made the massive mistake of 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:22.040 watching a YouTube video featuring his top five table side explosions. 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.079 I'm a little bit nervous about this one, but I 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.320 trust you. I'm sure it'll be a good conversation. Well 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:42.280 hopefully we won't be at the receiving end of any tirade. 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.880 Phil Holmia, thank you very much for joining us. Okay, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.800 first of all, those tides have tons of millions of 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.680 you so that's a good thing. I think, Uh well, 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:59.120 I don't walk around like that every day. So they 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.760 and in this this day and age of televised poker, 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.040 I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have a reputation as 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.360 being one of the more one of the more colorful 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.680 players that I watched those it's like a train wreck, 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.040 but I think traders can kind of you know, I mean, 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:16.960 you're you're in a great position and everything, all indicators 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:18.880 could be the best position you've ever seen, and then 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.040 all of a sudden, for some reason, I don't know, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:25.280 there's a forest fire in your stock. The direction I 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.520 would I would be throwing a tirade at that point. 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.720 So so that's the interesting thing is that you do 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:36.120 have this reputation for throwing tirades. As Tracy mentioned, your 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.640 nickname is the poker brat, but you're obviously very successful 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.520 at poker, and so those tirades don't seem to translate 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.400 into terrible play. In fact, you played quite well. So 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:51.840 the popular term is you go on till you start 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.080 getting emotional, you start making you know, bad bets that 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.279 are driven by emotion. It doesn't seem like your tirades 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.120 lead to bad bets. Well, that's true. I mean, I 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.120 think I get rid of a lot of the emotion 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.360 in the moment and the past in my twenties when 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.800 that happened, I would definitely get on tilt. And I mean, 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.760 of course, there's huge similarities there between trading and you know, 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.880 and poker and getting emotional, and you know, even more 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.240 analogies when you're talking about when you're buried in poker, 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.520 when you're stuck the same thing in trading. You know, 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:26.640 when you've lost a lot of money in a particular day, 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:28.599 you might make some bad decisions near the end of 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:30.839 that day. When you're losing a lot of money in 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.919 a poker game, you might make some bad decisions, you know, 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:37.320 near the end of that game. And it's there's some 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.960 definitely similarities there. Interesting. As I was hearing you guys 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.559 open the show, I was thinking, Um, I was thinking 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:45.600 that a lot of the guys that have been around forever, 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.720 both in your industry and somebody like a Warren Buffett, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.960 all kind of share the same thing, and that's not 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.080 to risk too much of their money on any given day. 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.200 And that's something that you know, I've been made fun 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.560 of a criticized it in the poker world, especially by 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.920 people that don't understand. So the criticisms is not fair, um, 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.479 because I wouldn't risk enough a higher percentage of my 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:16.559 net worth choosing instead to be staked. For example, there's 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.320 a series of six poker tournaments I'm about to enter 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.080 and I needed to raise six hundred and six hundred 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:28.440 sixty seven thousand, two very specific number. UM. I emailed 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.800 my friends. I raised it in four hours to play 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.080 poker tournaments. Now it's a very high risk investment, including 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.800 a three K. But you know, I'll probably get criticized 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.719 because you know, I'll probably have of myself in those tournaments, 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:44.919 opting to look a little bit more like a hedge 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.000 fund and taking you know, fifteen percent free role and 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.440 then putting some of my own cash in. Joe and 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.480 I have spoken about this on this podcast before, and 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:59.000 that's the idea of a mathematical formula that basically dictates 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.560 the ideal of ount of money that you should bet 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.719 on each trade or each hand a poker, and that's 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.880 the Kelly criterion. Is something like that something that you 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.240 would use when you actually play poker. Kelly criteria is 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.080 very interesting. Um. You know, we've discussed us for a 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.160 long time in poker as well. I I mean, I'm 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.880 probably even more conservative than that. So you know, I've 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.680 understood for for a long time. Um, you know, I 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.080 was married. I've been married and have you know, kids 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:34.040 for forever. Basically my sons are not and twenty three. 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.560 And you know, I couldn't if I made one bad 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:41.040 decision at the table, it could really affect my life. 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.960 And I had a wife and two kids depending on me, 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.360 and I couldn't make those decisions. I remember playing poker, 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.640 remember strolling into a poker room in l a And 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.800 around two thousand four, and you know, I kind of 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.680 kind of feels like all eyes are on me when 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.000 I walk in a poker room. I feel like a U. S. 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.840 President when I'm an the World Series of Poker, everybody 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.280 staring at me, and you know, and I remember walking 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.400 in and sitting down at like a hundred two hundred game, 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.360 and there was an eight and six hundred game, and 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:11.840 there was a four and eight hundred game, and there 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:13.520 was a three and six hundred game. And here I 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.560 sat in this game and everybody's watching me, and I 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:18.800 know they're all judging me. Home I got Phil's playing 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.240 a hundred two hundred, and it was a real it 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.800 was a real uh you know, kind of hurt my 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.600 pride a lot. And I said, listen, you're doing this 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:29.360 for your wife and your kids, and you're just being 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.440 really smart. And you know, if people want to, you know, 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.600 judge you, that's fine, be judged you know, um. And 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:39.679 so you know, I was willing to do things like 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.199 that rather than rather than risk too much money on 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.440 any given day. So I think this is this is 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.800 really interesting. A few things here. One is maybe a 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.040 lot of people don't realize this, but tell us a 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.760 little bit more about how it works. The idea of 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.720 being staked. So you're entering these six tournaments, people are 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.040 of essentially in did in you there you're playing with 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.839 their money. Explain how that how that works. Well, I've 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.760 been lucky to have some really amazing friends who have, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.760 you know, wanted to invest money in me. And I've 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:16.160 been extraordinarily lucky in that over the years, I've probably 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.360 had fifty people invest money, and there's one or two 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.280 that are losing and maybe they've lost a combined total 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.360 of seventy. On the other hand, I've made four or 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.720 five million dollars for everybody else. So you know, I 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.720 try to invite anybody who's lost into my next deal. 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.160 So as time has passed. Last year, I put together 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.000 my first fund, and I wasn't sure how it would go. 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.360 I'm like, oh my god, I need to raise five 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:42.400 hundred and fifty thousand dollars. You know, can I do it? 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.000 So I designed a fund where I would get a 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.600 ten free roll and I'd put up the first ten 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:53.480 percent myself, so I'd be playing. And you know, the 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:59.360 nice thing about this versus traditional traditional deals are deals 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.040 where you would have make up. In other words, I 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:03.679 would have someone staking me, and if I lost a 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.840 hundred and fifty thousand dollars straight, they would get their 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.080 hundred and fifty off the top. So theoretically I'm a 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.480 great poker player, I'm eventually always going to end up 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.600 making that person money, but they might have to carry 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.559 a three hundred thousand dollar loss for a couple of 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:21.160 years and so you know, but in this case, it's 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.680 just much cleaner just just just have your friends put 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:26.240 in a bunch of money. So last year was my 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.040 first kind of fund. My friends put in five fifty 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.959 I hit for one point six million right away. And uh, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.839 and I was a little bit unlucky to not hit 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.960 for more. Now for them, imagine this is beyond like 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.800 the Kentucky Derby, the Kentucky every Last for two minutes. 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.080 They were actually able to watch me live on television 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.600 for three full days in a three hundred thousand dollar 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.160 buying tournament. And if I would have gotten there in 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.800 the other two events, I would have been on a 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:55.760 live stream where they could have watched me. So it's 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.320 kind of fun when you have ten of somebody in 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:00.720 your rooting for him to be able to watch for 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.160 three straight days if you want to. And so it 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.240 was pretty cool. And and this year, of course, last year, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.880 I was surprised my fund sold out in like twenty 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:14.679 three hours, and of course this year four hours. And 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.000 and I could have raised a million dollars and four 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.760 hours if I wanted to. And of course that will 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.439 all go away if I'm not successful. So there's a 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.000 lot of pressure on me because I took my friends 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.520 money in for the latest fund. So and it's only 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.840 six or seven events, I think, so Phil forgive me 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.359 if this is a really simplistic question, but what happens 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.120 if the worst occurs and you do lose all your money, 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.120 and you do lose your bankroll, then what's like the 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.560 next step for you? If I lost the fund um 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.800 and then several of my friends would lose sixty six 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:54.760 thousand dollars or whatever, it's okay, they're all super wealthy, um, 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.040 But it's not really okay because I really want to win. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.320 But I think next year, if I tried to raise 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.240 six million dollars and four or five hours, I would 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.719 be able to do it again. So I think for them, 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.040 it's just really fun and they want to support and 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.080 they want to be involved, and they know how much 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.640 money I've made my other friends, So it feels like, 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.199 you know, it feels like I'm good for a while, 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:20.160 unless somehow I my poker skills suddenly mysteriously disappear. For 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.640 me to lose all of my money is almost unimaginable, 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.480 I'd have to you know, I'm just way too conservative 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.280 to to put all of my money at play, or 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.680 even you know, ten percent of it right off the bat. 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.480 In our conversation, we talked about and I said, it 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.839 was interesting how you have this reputation for these tirades 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.880 at the table, but you don't go on tilt. You 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.280 don't let those tirades turn into a string of bad decisions. 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.719 And you mentioned that when you played poker in your twenties, 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.640 you used to go on tilt. Explain what happened. How 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.960 did you plug that leak in your game, so to speak, 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.160 How did you how did you turn it around and 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.400 avoid this sort of mental mistakes? Really give us some 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.520 of the details about how you work. Okay, I'm gonna 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.800 answer that. I'll also say that. I'll also say that, 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.840 you know, with my autobiography, Poker Brat, I'm also launching 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.440 my next book, So Poker Brack comes out August onet 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.760 and I'm doing this book right after that's called Positivity 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.560 and Positivity I'm really excited about. It's kind of like 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:21.400 my how to Achieve Great Things in Life book. And 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.360 so the number one principle as we're all in the 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.120 right place at the right time, which I think is 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.600 really interesting. You know. The second principle is hate hurts 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.120 you and I have some you know, five amazing principles. 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.440 But let's go back to your question first. For you know, 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.280 as far as as far as being able to control 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.839 yourself at the table, I do think that getting rid 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.280 of all that negativity in the moments, in other words, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.400 kind of going on a tire rde How could you 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.480 do that? What were you thinking? Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.240 It seems like that kind of got rid of it 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.920 rather than I think some people keep all of those 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.320 internalize all those bad beats, and then you have the 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:01.760 new generation which plays literally two hundred hands per hour 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.120 at sites and take bad beats all the time, and 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:06.960 so they just think nothing of it. They think my 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.360 behavior is absurd. How could it matter to you? Feel? 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.280 I played a thousand hands today in five hours, and 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.000 I took four bad beats and I just didn't even blink. 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.679 So um. But for me, what I try to do 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.560 when I'm really emotional is I try to take stock 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.200 of exactly where I am and exactly how many chips 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.760 I have, what the blinds are. So after a really 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:29.880 horrible beat, if I'm really on my game, I can 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.320 count down my chips. Okay, I have ten thousand, four 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.680 hundred left, Okay, what are the blinds? Two hundred four hundred? Okay, 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.960 how long till the break? And it's three or four 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.360 questions like that that just kind of puts me back 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:43.960 in and I realized, oh, you know what, you're still 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.800 all right, you still have a chance to win this, 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.760 and the three or four questions you know, post tirade 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.680 that and then and then hopefully there are years where 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.360 I don't have very many tirades for a couple of months, 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.560 and you know, of course that's disappointing to the sands 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.320 and the players at the table. They all want to 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.720 see that, and it's kind of like the John McEnroe 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.640 show war. I just want to say, when when I 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.920 was talking to Tracy earlier, I said, oh, he's kind 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.920 of like the John McEnroe of poker. So I already 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.000 got when we were having a conversation earlier, I got 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.960 that in all right, we're going to take a short 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:26.680 break for a message from our sponsor, but knowledge to 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.320 work and grow your business with c I T. From 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:34.480 transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers commercial lending, leasing, 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.200 and treasury management services for small and middle market businesses. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.040 Learn more at c I T dot com. Put Knowledge 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:49.440 to work and we are back phil. Before the break, 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:54.840 you mentioned briefly the idea of some players nowadays playing 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:59.800 like multiple rapid fire hands on online poker sites. And 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.360 I have to say, in my extensive research of poker 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.200 before we started this podcast, I did come across some 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.080 online players who seem to suggest that they don't really 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.240 like you. They don't really like the way that you 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:18.920 play poker. They think you make mathematically incorrect decisions. Um, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.600 what's your response to that? No, I really I do 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.280 love that question, um, because it opens up a whole 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.360 kind of fun can of worms for me. So you 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.320 have to understand that these guys are some really great 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:37.080 UH players out there that are completely mathematically based, and 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.600 they come up with amazing elegant theories, and it's it's 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.320 kind of fun to watch and see. But I can 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.160 read their elegant theories and about ten minutes, Oh, you're 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.800 doing this for this reason, that for that reason, and 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:50.680 you can dig in a little bit deeper. Maybe it 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.160 takes a couple of hours to fully kind of grasp it. 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.960 But for a as a professionals studied his whole life poker, 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.400 I see their theories in about ten minutes and then 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.240 and then but what they can never have? What I 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.680 have they can never have. You can't buy it, you 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.199 can't you know, it's not for sale. And that's you know, 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.000 great reading ability, which you know I sometimes term as 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:17.639 white magic um only because the black magic just sounded 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.960 like it was so negative. Um, I didn't want to 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.760 be known as some wizard that you know doing black 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.639 magic um. And and it's like one of the one 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.080 of the really great young players. I was trying to 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.520 explain to him why folded a hand and I'm like, well, 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.320 I thought he was really strong, and He's like, what 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.680 what He couldn't even understand that I was using what 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.479 it would call reads white magic, you know, understanding what 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.480 your opponents have understanding. You know, last night or a 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.760 couple of nights ago, was playing poker and my my 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:48.800 reads kind of kicked in and it was great because 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.480 sometimes they're not there all the time, or I'd probably have, 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.560 you know, twenty eight world championships. I mean, fourteen is 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.200 great and and I've got you know, there's three people 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.879 with ten that are chasing me for all time history. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.760 But I might have twenty eight if my reds were 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:07.080 all there. So yeah, poker's a very um it's just 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:12.919 not encompassed entirely by mathematics. It's impossible, and so you 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.760 can come along ways with just math and poker, but 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.840 you still have to steer somebody down, you know, And 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:25.080 when when when anybody's trying to bluff a million dollars, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:29.520 they're giving away signals that they're bluffing, And when I'm 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.960 at my best, I read those signals better than anybody else. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.840 And so I think that's kind of the explanation. If 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.400 you want to be great, great grade at hold them, 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.320 um and nolamit hold them. You have to be able 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.080 to bet at all and not let them detect your bluffing. 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.720 And you have to even more importantly, be able to 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:53.120 determine when they're bluffing all of their chips and then 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:56.280 make a great call. And sometimes that create creates crazy 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.880 situations where you know, I'm calling like three million dollars 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:06.360 with bottom pair, you know, because really really weak holding. 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.159 You know. Yeah, sure it's nice when you when you 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.199 have you know, four of a kind and someone bluffs 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.480 all in, but you know, oftentimes you're caught in these 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:17.960 really weird spots. And so if you can make that 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.480 amazing call, then you're going to win the tournament. And 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.240 if you can't, you won't. So the World Series of 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.360 Poker is coming up, you mentioned you're in the lead. 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.040 You have fourteen bracelets, more than anyone else. People are 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:35.280 trying to chase you. How do you prepare it for this? 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:37.720 And for people who don't know, the World Series of 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.080 Poker is not just one tournament, but many, many tournaments, 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.840 and you enter several how do you prepare for what's 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.560 coming up? What are you doing right now? Well, I mean, 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.400 you know, so I make a lot of appearances, um, 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.160 and I do you know, I work for a lot 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:57.720 of companies. Uh, you know, I have pieces of you know, Chemo, Sabbi, Me, Mescal. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.720 We were the you know, uh, we were official spirit 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.240 of Self by Southwest. I'm involved with music Headphones. We 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.520 signed Michael Jordan and Drake and Kevin Hard. I'm on 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.160 the advisory board of that. So I'm a little bit 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:11.760 it feels like I'm a little bit busy. And then 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.800 writing the book, for God's sakes, I was writing words 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.679 a day for months. I mean it was just so grueling. 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.080 You're just not sleeping, well, you're always thinking about the book. 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.960 And so and then I made a bunch of appearances. 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.959 I had to go to the East coast, Vegas, and 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.240 so about five weeks ago, I said, that's it. I'm 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.159 shutting it down. And so basically I was trying. It 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:35.800 might sound funny to you, I was trying to get 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.240 myself into a state of boredom almost so the first 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:41.440 two two and a half weeks, I just didn't do much, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.240 but I felt like I was sleeping eleven hours a day, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:46.679 you know, just kind of getting caught up from a 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.240 lot of intensity. And then you know, three or four 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:51.879 weeks in, I was a little bit bored, which I 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:56.399 think was great. And um, and you're just resting because 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:58.680 I know that the World Series of Poker. For example, 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:02.840 I go to Vegas Thursday, okay, and then I'm not 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:05.800 leaving Vegas again until June twenty. I'm gonna do a 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.240 bunch of live you know. Um, I think it was 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:11.520 announced that ESPN is going to be doing the World 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.520 Series of Poker today. It was announced, and so either 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.399 I'm going to be playing twelve days straight at the 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.560 World Series of Poker or I'll be doing the commentary. 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:24.359 So that's live on ESPN every day. It's a very intense, 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.600 long stretch, and so I try to rest up as 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.280 much as I can. It's really funny that it seems 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.119 like working out has been backfiring. I worked out in 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:37.320 thirteen and sixteen and then my worst series, So I'm 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:42.160 trying to instead of exercise this year. You know, it's weird, 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.399 doesn't make sense to me. I'm like, this can't And 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.720 I was stupid because I just worked out for six 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.639 weeks straight every day or whatever every other day, just 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.399 saying this couldn't possibly be hurting me. Well, you know, 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:57.080 sometimes you know, there's mysterious reasons and I'm not fully 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.879