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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: You see throughout this book just these incredible, anonymous heroes who,

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Speaker 2: when approached by someone who's not the cops, that they

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Speaker 2: will step up and do the right thing at great

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Speaker 2: personal risk.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about what the choices writers make,

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Speaker 1: both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the unpublished details behind their stories. A gang in a

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Speaker 1: mountain barrio in Honduras terrorized the people there for years.

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Speaker 1: The police claimed that their hands were tied because witnesses

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Speaker 1: refused to testify, But then an American sociologist and a

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Speaker 1: Honduran school teacher devised a plan to protect their neighbors

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Speaker 1: by taking matters into their own hands. Author Ross Halpern

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Speaker 1: tells me the story in his book Bear Witness, The

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Speaker 1: Pursuit of Justice and a Violent Land. How did you

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Speaker 1: run across the story to begin with? What puts you

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Speaker 1: on the story?

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Speaker 2: So I was working for two criminologists back in like

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, and towards the end

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Speaker 2: of that period we got really interested in the problem

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Speaker 2: of impunity in the United States. So this might surprise

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, maybe not your listeners because they're

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Speaker 2: on top of the things. But you know, whereas in

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Speaker 2: other comparable wealthy democracies across the world, maybe upwards of

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Speaker 2: ninety percent of homicides were solved. Here in the United States,

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Speaker 2: it's way lower than that. You know, at the time

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Speaker 2: it was probably sixty percent, and it's very skewed. The

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Speaker 2: solve rate for homicides in Chicago, you know, at the

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Speaker 2: time was probably like twenty five percent. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we care a lot about homicide, obviously, because that's probably

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Speaker 2: the most grievous crime that we have, But the significant

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Speaker 2: majority of shootings that happened in the United States are

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Speaker 2: non fatal, and the solve rate for those is frankly despicable. Actually,

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Speaker 2: the Chicago Sun Times just came out with a report

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Speaker 2: showing that of the nineteen thousand non fatal shootings that

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Speaker 2: had happened in that city since twenty eighteen, only six

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Speaker 2: percent had resulted in the rest, so almost complete lawlessness.

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Speaker 2: We were studying this issue very closely, trying to understand

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Speaker 2: it and think through potential solutions for it. And the

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Speaker 2: capstone of that project was a summit, kind of a

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Speaker 2: small conference in New York City that one of the

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Speaker 2: criminologists organized. And at that conference, Kurt Verbeek, who ended

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Speaker 2: up being the subject of my book, made a presentation

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Speaker 2: and you know, it was very, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: say boring, but not so flowery. It was just a

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Speaker 2: very kind of bare bones power point presentation. But I

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Speaker 2: was like totally captivated, both because it seemed like this

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Speaker 2: guy and his partner had come up with a solution

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Speaker 2: for impunity and lawlessness and solving more homicides and gun crimes.

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Speaker 2: Also because I was just fascinated in him, like how

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Speaker 2: he had made the decisions he made, and like why

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Speaker 2: he was the way he was and where he was

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Speaker 2: living and what he had done and the courage and

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Speaker 2: the bravery and the religion. I was just totally fascinated.

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Speaker 2: And a month later I was in Honduras for the

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Speaker 2: first time.

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Speaker 1: I think, what's interesting is, you know when you have

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Speaker 1: people that come up with these solutions. You know, my

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Speaker 1: father was a law professor, and he talked about how

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Speaker 1: cyclical crime is, and you know, the way it shifts

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Speaker 1: with the economy and everything. But to think the nitty gritty,

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Speaker 1: how do you really make people feel protected? How do

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Speaker 1: you change an entire system. This is kind of the

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Speaker 1: first story where I really felt like you have somebody

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Speaker 1: with those sort of academic chops who actually physically went

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Speaker 1: into an area, put his life at risk to actually

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Speaker 1: in practice figure out what this will realistically work in

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Speaker 1: a very dangerous area of Honduras.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and like he didn't start there is the other

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Speaker 2: interesting thing. So he you know, he's a sociologist. He

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Speaker 2: grew up in suburban Chicago and right after college him

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Speaker 2: and his wife moved to Honduras. They're very idealistic, they're

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Speaker 2: very religious, and they want to help the poor, and

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Speaker 2: they really decide at a young age to commit their

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Speaker 2: lives to that. And like that's not a terribly uncommon

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Speaker 2: thing for young people to do. But it becomes pretty

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Speaker 2: quickly that they're not like the others. And the first

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Speaker 2: really radical and unusual thing that they do is they

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Speaker 2: move with their kids at this point to one of

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Speaker 2: the poorest and most dangerous neighborhoods in all of Honduras,

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Speaker 2: the type of place where you know, the rest of

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Speaker 2: the gring goes down in Honduras, the missionaries wouldn't even

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Speaker 2: set foot in. And it's there that Kurt really forges

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Speaker 2: this incredible bond, this best friendship with Carlos Hernandez, who

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Speaker 2: is a school teacher from Merle, Honduras, and who has

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Speaker 2: the same mentality, like just totally devoted to helping the poor.

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Speaker 2: And the two of them spend the first five or

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Speaker 2: ten years they're there doing all the normal things that

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Speaker 2: humanitarians and missionaries do, so they're you know, they build

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Speaker 2: a school, they have a micro lender, they're working on

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Speaker 2: the water, they're working on the land titling, and it's

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Speaker 2: all very impressive and they're quite successful at it. But

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Speaker 2: to what you're saying, they reach a point where they say, look,

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Speaker 2: this stuff is only going to have so much impact

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Speaker 2: when there's a gang that is killing people, hurting people,

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Speaker 2: scaring people, extorting businesses. People can't prosper people can't be

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Speaker 2: educated in an environment like that, and the police and

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Speaker 2: the prosecutors and the criminal justice system we're basically doing nothing.

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Speaker 2: So they say, we're going to shift gears, and this

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Speaker 2: is really where the book starts, and we are going

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Speaker 2: to do something about crime and violence and impunity. And

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Speaker 2: what that concretely means in that moment is we're going

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Speaker 2: to take on this gang, which is one of the

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Speaker 2: most notorious gangs in Honduras. And this is a very

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Speaker 2: daring thing to do. It's a very dangerous thing to do.

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Speaker 2: But they come up with an idea, a very clever

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Speaker 2: idea for how to go about it.

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Speaker 1: And you know what's fascinating about what their mindset was

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Speaker 1: is you have Carlos, who lives there and knows this country.

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Speaker 1: You've got Kirt that comes in with this experience and

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Speaker 1: also a determination to help people. So it's almost this

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Speaker 1: sort of perfect storm of people who, you know, two

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Speaker 1: people who have found each other to be able to

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Speaker 1: solve this problem. Figure out pretty quickly that policies aren't

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Speaker 1: going to work, and more police necessarily won't work. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the things that have been the checkboxes for politicians all

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Speaker 1: over the world in this moment won't work once they're

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Speaker 1: living with the terror that the people in this area

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Speaker 1: are living with. That was a really big tease for

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Speaker 1: what I want to talk about. But before we do that,

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Speaker 1: let's go back and tell me what Honduras is like.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think it gets clumped in with with

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Speaker 1: other countries, you know, Latin countries, and people don't really understand,

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Speaker 1: you know, the differences, and of course migrants coming from

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Speaker 1: some of these countries make headlines with the current administration.

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Speaker 1: I think it would be good to know exactly what

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Speaker 1: they're going through in Honduras in this time.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I mean we hear so much about the

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Speaker 2: border and deportations, but I think this book is really

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Speaker 2: a chance to go inside the country and really get

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Speaker 2: to see it for what it is and the problems

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Speaker 2: and the villains and the heroes and the everything. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think the first thing to know about

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Speaker 2: it is it's sort of has fallen victim to this

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Speaker 2: perfect storm of criminal forces, and the first one is

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Speaker 2: narco trafficking. So back in the eighties, this was the

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Speaker 2: original days of cocaine trafficking. It would typically come from

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Speaker 2: Colombia up through the Caribbean Sea to the United States.

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Speaker 2: And basically what happened is the United States spent billions

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Speaker 2: of dollars stopping that blockading that route, and it was

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Speaker 2: successful in a certain sense, but it was unsuccessful in

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Speaker 2: the sense that it didn't stop cocaine. What happened is

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Speaker 2: the narcos shifted their routes westward to a path with

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Speaker 2: much less resistance, and Honduras was a perfect place for that.

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Speaker 2: So manufactured in Venezuela or Colombia, and then it's on

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Speaker 2: a boat or a little prop plane or even a

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Speaker 2: submarine to Honduras and from there it goes overland to

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Speaker 2: the United States. And you know, there was a point

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Speaker 2: in the story in the history of this country where

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Speaker 2: I think eighty percent of cocaine that got to the

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Speaker 2: United States was being in Honduras first. So just think

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Speaker 2: about the value of that criminal activity and how poor

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Speaker 2: and small that country is. So that's factor one. Factor

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Speaker 2: two is the Maras. So a lot of people have

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Speaker 2: heard about the MS thirteen. They're still in the news today.

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Speaker 2: What they may not know is that that gang, as

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Speaker 2: well as its chief rival the Barrio eighteen were founded

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Speaker 2: in Los Angeles by Salvadoran refugees in the eighties, and

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Speaker 2: there was a big bipartisan deportation effort in the mid

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Speaker 2: to late nineties where the United States deported a lot

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Speaker 2: of people with criminal records. So you had thousands of

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Speaker 2: these gang members from Los Angeles being shipped back to Honduras,

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Speaker 2: l Salvador and Guatemala, and in pretty short order those

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Speaker 2: gangs spread and as of the time this book starts,

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Speaker 2: pretty much every poor neighborhood in Honduras, poor urban neighborhood

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Speaker 2: is controlled by one of the two. Funny enough that

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Speaker 2: the neighborhood Nuevasuyapa that I write about was controlled by

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Speaker 2: a third gang which sort of carved out their own

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Speaker 2: fiefdom at the time. And then the third is just

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Speaker 2: a criminal justice system which was incapable of administering justice.

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Speaker 2: And part of the problem was poverty. You know, you

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Speaker 2: go to police stations down there are prosecutors' offices, and

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Speaker 2: you'll see deaths without computers, printers without ink. You'll see

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Speaker 2: a homicide department responsible for a million person city which

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Speaker 2: might have three cars and one of them might be

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Speaker 2: broken and one of them might not have any gas,

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Speaker 2: so lack of resources. And then there's obviously the problem

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Speaker 2: of corruption and criminality in the police force. This was

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Speaker 2: a police force that was involved with narco trafficking, murder

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Speaker 2: for hire, carjackings, and then there was just the more

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Speaker 2: mundane forms of corruption like letting criminals pay you to

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Speaker 2: let them go or escape at prison and all of that.

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Speaker 2: So you had narco trafficking, the maras and lawlessness, and

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Speaker 2: that contributed to a situation where you had a very

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Speaker 2: violent country and a lot of impunity.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the government. We've talked about the police

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Speaker 1: and you know, the vast corruption that's there. The government

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Speaker 1: must have been culpable with the cocaine trafficking. I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine they wouldn't be. Or do you have factions of

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Speaker 1: the government that are fighting against each other who truly

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Speaker 1: want Honduras to you know, not be corrupt, to help

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Speaker 1: the poorest people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I definitely don't want to paint with

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Speaker 2: too broad a brush. And all of these institutions, ranging

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Speaker 2: from the police to the prosecutor's office to you know,

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Speaker 2: the highest level of politicians. There are obviously good people

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Speaker 2: trying to do a good job. But you have to understand.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you're someone running to be president of

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Speaker 2: a country like this, you need to raise money to

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Speaker 2: run a campaign. And in a super poor country where

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Speaker 2: there's not a lot of people with wealth, the people

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Speaker 2: who have money are often people who are involved in

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Speaker 2: narco trafficking in one way or another. So there's been

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Speaker 2: this infecting of the highest echelons of the government and

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Speaker 2: politics by narco trafficking. Let's talk today. The last president

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Speaker 2: of Honduras is currently in an American jail cell and

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Speaker 2: has a life sentence for being a narcotrafficker. And when

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Speaker 2: the witnesses testified against him, they also made allegations against

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Speaker 2: the prior to presidents. The current president's brother in law,

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Speaker 2: there was a video of him recently released where he

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Speaker 2: appears to be negotiating a bribe with a narcotrafficker. So

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Speaker 2: it really did touch a lot of different people. Some

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Speaker 2: of them have ended up in prison, some of them

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Speaker 2: might end up in prison. It's just a lot of

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Speaker 2: money for a country that poor and small.

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Speaker 1: Who can help in this situation? Before we get down

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Speaker 1: to your specific story, I mean, is there any intervention

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Speaker 1: that can happen outside of a Honduras that can change this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I wish I knew the answer. And

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of amazing people, including the two guys

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Speaker 2: I write about in my book, who are trying very

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Speaker 2: hard to improve the country, and despite there being a

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Speaker 2: sense in some circles that it's kind of a hopeless situation,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it is one thing that will probably

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Speaker 2: have an impact on presidents presidential candidates taking money from

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Speaker 2: narco's or participating in narco trafficking themselves. Is extradition, which

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Speaker 2: is a very powerful tool where by the United States

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Speaker 2: takes someone who's has committed a crime in another country

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Speaker 2: and brings them here and puts them in a jail

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Speaker 2: cell here in an American court where justice actually can

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Speaker 2: be done. So I think that's a powerful tool. And

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Speaker 2: then look, I mean, USAID was supporting a lot of

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Speaker 2: efforts in Honduras and other countries like it. Some of

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Speaker 2: them are pretty small sounding, like helping people get through

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Speaker 2: droughts and different programs to help teenagers avoid the pull

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Speaker 2: of gang life. But I do think a lot of

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Speaker 2: that stuff was helping and doing good. Some of it,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure was nonsensical and kind of bs, but I

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Speaker 2: think there was a lot of really great stuff going

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Speaker 2: on and churches, charities, missionary there are people doing good

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Speaker 2: stuff down there that I'm inspired by.

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Speaker 1: So Kurt and Joanne, did you tell me they had kids?

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I couldn't remember.

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Speaker 2: They didn't when they first moved there, but by the

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Speaker 2: time they moved to Nuevasuyappa, which was the super dangerous neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: they had two.

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Speaker 1: What year do Kurt and Joanne move to Nuevasuyapa? Tell

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Speaker 1: me kind of about their family situation, and also, gosh,

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Speaker 1: you would just think self preservation would kick in and

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Speaker 1: say this is not a good idea to move to

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Speaker 1: this incredibly dangerous area, but some people can ascend that.

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Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So they moved there in nineteen ninety eight, and I

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Speaker 2: think there's a few impulses behind that. So the first

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Speaker 2: thing to know is Kurt and Joanne are very religious.

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Speaker 2: They're members of the Christian Reformed Church, which is a

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Speaker 2: Calvinist tradition, and he and Carlos as well, in a

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Speaker 2: different way, have these contrarian but very strong ideas about

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Speaker 2: Christian theology. And one of Kurt's big things is, you know,

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Speaker 2: Christians see Jesus today, he says, and they see this

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Speaker 2: almost delicate, little adorable guy floating up in the clouds.

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Speaker 2: But the real Jesus was this wildly brave, audacious guy

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Speaker 2: in the desert who was willing to put his life

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Speaker 2: on the line for what he believed in. And the

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Speaker 2: same goes for the people who were his earliest accolytes

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Speaker 2: and were a part of this religion which was illegal

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Speaker 2: for three hundred years, and were getting killed in the

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Speaker 2: most barbaric ways for proselytizing it. And he says, those

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Speaker 2: guys were wildly brave, and I want to resuscitate that.

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Speaker 2: I want to bring that back into modern Christianity, that

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Speaker 2: sense of courage and just because something might get you

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Speaker 2: hurt or even your kids hurt, that isn't necessarily a

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Speaker 2: reason not to do it. And the second is, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's a teacher, he's a sociologist. He earns a living

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Speaker 2: by teaching study abroad students, and he tells the students

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Speaker 2: that if you want to help the poor, like there's

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Speaker 2: all these missionaries and people coming down to Honduras for

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Speaker 2: two weeks, three weeks to build a sc school or

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Speaker 2: build a home, but we don't believe in that. We

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Speaker 2: don't think they really understand the problems, and if you

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Speaker 2: want to help the poor, you should live alongside them.

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Speaker 2: And they eventually say, you know, we're kind of we

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Speaker 2: did that a little bit when they first got to Hunduras,

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Speaker 2: but at that time they were living in a middle

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Speaker 2: class neighborhood and they kind of felt like hypocrites. So

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Speaker 2: they said, if we really want to do this, we

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Speaker 2: have to live like the poor alongside them. And those

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Speaker 2: are the two things that really contribute to that decision,

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Speaker 2: which is criticized there by their friends and family.

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Speaker 1: Well, start from when they moved to this area and describe,

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Speaker 1: you know, we talk about the most dangerous and poverty

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Speaker 1: stricken area. Kind of describe what that means, just for

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Speaker 1: anybody to be able to understand. Does that mean people

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Speaker 1: barely eat or what are their living situations like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So this community came to be in nineteen like

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Speaker 2: seventy four. There was a big hurricane and the river

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Speaker 2: inundated a lot of shanty towns and at the time

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Speaker 2: this location was the municipal garbage but it was the

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Speaker 2: only place people could go, so they populated it. It's

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Speaker 2: on a mountain side above the city, and by the

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Speaker 2: time Kurt got there, it wasn't in that state where

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Speaker 2: it was, you know, the garbage flies and sort of

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Speaker 2: disgusting in that way, but it was very impoverished. So

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Speaker 2: as an example, by then there were water pipes installed,

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Speaker 2: but they only run to each household about one day

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Speaker 2: per month. So when that one day comes, you spend

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Speaker 2: however many hours it runs, filling up as many tubs

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Speaker 2: and barrels and tanks as you possibly can. And the

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Speaker 2: rest of the time that's how much water you have

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Speaker 2: for everything, you know, dirt roads, ramshackle houses made of everything.

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Speaker 2: There's some that are nicer, concrete blocks you know, have

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Speaker 2: finishing on them. But you'll see houses made of you know,

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Speaker 2: pieces of wood, of signage. And the roads some are

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Speaker 2: you know, like kind of a fire road, some are

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Speaker 2: like little paths. It's it's a very poor place. And

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Speaker 2: in this sort of period before them got to Honduras,

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Speaker 2: there was a different type of crime. It was a

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Speaker 2: lot of fevery low level fevery stealing, burglarizing, pickpockets. I mean,

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Speaker 2: at the beginning of the story, Carlos gets robbed at

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Speaker 2: knife point. But as things progress and the sort of

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Speaker 2: gang methodology of Los Angeles spreads across Honduras. Things become

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Speaker 2: much more dangerous, and neighbors start getting killed, friends start

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Speaker 2: getting hurt, girls stop going to school because they're scared.

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Speaker 2: Church services at night get canceled. It becomes a somewhat

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Speaker 2: scary place, but I don't want to overstate that. Like

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Speaker 2: both Curt and Carlos have a bit of trepidation when

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Speaker 2: they first move there, but they end up loving it

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Speaker 2: because it's a very communal place. It's a place where

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Speaker 2: there's just a lot of life, people out and about,

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Speaker 2: neighbors helping neighbors. There's trees, there's a great top down

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Speaker 2: view of the city. So there's a lot of good

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Speaker 2: things about it too.

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Speaker 1: How are Kurt and Joanne as a white American couple,

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Speaker 1: how are they received in Honduras and in this little

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Speaker 1: town by gangs and by just their kind neighbors?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think to some extent they're like an

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Speaker 2: objective fascination. You know, when they walk to church twice

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Speaker 2: a day on Sundays, there are these guys outside the

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Speaker 2: canteena who will heckle them with like these fake English words.

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Speaker 2: And I haven't experienced that myself when I was spending

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Speaker 2: some time in the community. But pretty quickly they really

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Speaker 2: integrate themselves. And I mean the kids are going to

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Speaker 2: school across the street at Genesis, which is Carlos's school,

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Speaker 2: with local kids. Kurt and Joanne are very much part

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Speaker 2: of the fabric of their church community and helping people

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Speaker 2: in every way possible with housing problems and work problems

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Speaker 2: and personal problems. But you know, there is a stands out.

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Speaker 2: I mean, for example, he rides his bike to work

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Speaker 2: every morning, so he'll go down the hill with his

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Speaker 2: bike and his helmet and paddle across the city to

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Speaker 2: his classroom. And there are these things like that which

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Speaker 2: would definitely make him stand out. And you know, he's tall,

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Speaker 2: he's white, he's got blue eyes, so it's noticeable. But

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Speaker 2: you know, pretty quickly they really feel at home there.

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Speaker 2: They feel like this is our home, this is where

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Speaker 2: we want to live for the rest of our life.

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Speaker 1: And this is where Kurt meets Carlos, right, who will

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Speaker 1: be his partner in this crime fighting enterprise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they had actually met before then, but they

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Speaker 2: were kind of more like acquaintances. I would say they

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Speaker 2: had worked in the same offices maybe a decade before.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, they very quickly forged this truly unusual best friendship.

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Speaker 2: I mean they're living directly next door to each other,

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Speaker 2: and pretty much every night when Carlos comes home from work,

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Speaker 2: he'll knock on Kurt's window and they have a little

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Speaker 2: chat just about their days, and very often Kurt will

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Speaker 2: invite him in. He'll sit down at the table and

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Speaker 2: it's one of these dynamics where you just have two

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Speaker 2: people who are so in tune, share the same values,

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Speaker 2: have this amazing conversation chemistry. You know, they're friends, there's

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Speaker 2: a real friendship there, but they're united by this mission,

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Speaker 2: this sense that we want to improve this place. We

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Speaker 2: want to come up with creative ideas to improve this place,

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Speaker 2: and we're willing to do whatever it takes to improve

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Speaker 2: this place. And you know, it starts off as a friendship,

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Speaker 2: but it really morphs into a work partnership. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we're getting a little bit of a head of ourselves here.

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Speaker 2: But that's a very hard and unusual thing to do

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Speaker 2: to have a friend become a work partner and then

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Speaker 2: have that work for you know, they're almost on thirty

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Speaker 2: years now of doing that.

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Speaker 1: Now, tell me about the characteristics of Carlos that make

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Speaker 1: him a good partner. You're talking about, you know, a

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Speaker 1: sociologist who comes from the United States, I'm presuming has

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Speaker 1: had a normal middle class life in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and then you're talking about someone who is Carlos, I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming has lived in Honduras' entire life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Carlos grew up in rurala Honduras. His parents were

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Speaker 2: separated at pretty young age age, and in order to

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Speaker 2: be schooled, he basically had a hopscotch from different relatives

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Speaker 2: house to different relatives' house to always be within walking

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Speaker 2: distance of a school that educated kids his age. So

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Speaker 2: we sort of had this nomadic childhood around this rural

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Speaker 2: area in Honduras. And you know, he, like Kurt, is

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Speaker 2: at animated by this sort of contrarian religious vision. And

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Speaker 2: he's an Evangelical Christian, but he can't stand how his

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Speaker 2: church and the Evangelical church in general in Honduras is

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Speaker 2: very kind of head in the clouds. So we are

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Speaker 2: focused on prayer and scripture and converting others so they

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Speaker 2: will be able to go to Heaven someday as opposed

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Speaker 2: to Hell. And he says, look, I believe in that

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Speaker 2: I want to do that too, But what about in

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Speaker 2: the here and now, what about the kids who aren't

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Speaker 2: getting educated and the sick people who have tuberculosis? Like

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Speaker 2: I want to focus on that as a Christian. And

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Speaker 2: you know, he moves to Tagusigalpa by himself, with no connections,

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Speaker 2: no money, and spends the first few years working for

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Speaker 2: evangelical charities, you know, integrating himself to a church there.

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Speaker 2: But he reaches a point where he says, like, I

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Speaker 2: don't like what the other charities are doing. I don't

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Speaker 2: like what the church is doing. I'm going my own route.

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Speaker 2: And this place called New Evaso Yappa is clearly the

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Speaker 2: worst off barrio in the city. I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: there and try to help. And in terms of the characteristics,

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Speaker 2: I mean, Carlos is really much more of a dreamer.

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Speaker 2: Kurt is a very orderly thinker. He organizes his speech,

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Speaker 2: his thinking, his presentations. Carlos is an idea guy. He's

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Speaker 2: a people person. He very quickly. I mean, he builds

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Speaker 2: a school there, which is this amazing thing to do,

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Speaker 2: very hard to build there, you know, educating kids. There's

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Speaker 2: a doctor, there's a pharmacist, there's an orthodontist, there's a

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Speaker 2: micro lending organization. He's just energy ideas, new creation. And

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Speaker 2: you know he's not a task master's He almost becomes

431
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 2: like the mayor of Nuevasu Yappa. So people come to

432
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: him for problems, He'll go and deliver construction materials to

433
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: their house. Very energetic, very active, playing with kids, sitting

434
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: down for coffee with women who borrowed from his microlender.

435
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: That that type of guy.

436
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: Tell me about the churches before we move on to

437
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: their story and the church's relationship in Honduras with these gangs.

438
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: Are they generally left alone or are they the subject

439
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: of extortion and intimidation just like you know somebody who

440
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 1: owns a corner store would be.

441
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, the churches aren't extorted by the gangs. And

442
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: I mean, the the VMO I think even to this day,

443
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: is that the only way to leave the MS thirteen

444
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: or the Baru eighteen is if you become a true

445
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: believing Christian and part of the evangelical church. So, I mean,

446
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: I've never heard of them explicitly being targeted, But now

447
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: that I'm actually thinking about it, there's a point in

448
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: my story where the gang the Puco's raids Kurt's pastor's

449
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: house and pins him to the ground as they basically

450
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: ransack all of his belongings. So, and there's another instance

451
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about after I've said that, where the gang

452
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: robs all the kids from the church after they sold

453
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 2: a bunch of T shirts at a concert. Maybe the

454
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: bigger gangs have that line, But the gang that Kurt

455
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: and Carlos take on, which is just brutal and sort

456
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: of almost nihilistic seeming, I can think of a few

457
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: instances where they cross that line.

458
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about when things start to get bad.

459
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: So I've heard the good things, you know, we've heard

460
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: about the poverty, but we've also heard the good things

461
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: about the beauty of the place and how everybody is friendly,

462
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: and how well they've been ingratiated themselves to this Mario.

463
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: When do they first start encountering the things that Kurt

464
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: has been looking for, this violence, and when his wheels

465
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: and Carlos's wheels together start turning about how to solve this.

466
00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: Where does it begin.

467
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: It starts with a failure, so they kind of have

468
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: this in the back of their heads. And then one

469
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 2: day a woman who's the mother of two of Carlos's

470
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: students comes to him, Well, her husband was killed. Sorry,

471
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: I should have mentioned that he was shot on the street,

472
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: like a normal guy doing work leaves one morning and

473
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: was shot and robbed on the street. And a couple

474
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: weeks later, his widow goes to Carlos and says, hey,

475
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: I need your help. I want to get these guys arrested.

476
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 2: And like you know, to your ear, to my ear,

477
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: that might not sound terribly unusual, but in a place

478
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: like Honduras and Nuevasuyapa in particular, where maybe ten percent

479
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: of serious crimes across the entire country were even investigated,

480
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: let alone solved, she was doing something a bit unusual.

481
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 2: And what she said was, hey, I know who did it,

482
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: and I have spoke to witnesses who saw it. She

483
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: had done a little mini investigation herself. But then she

484
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: said that wasn't the hard part. The hard part was

485
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: the next part, which is she went to the police

486
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: and said, hey, go arrest the guys who killed my husband,

487
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: and they said, no, we can't do that unless the

488
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: witnesses come give formal statements directly to us. And that's

489
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: where you see the logjam, because the witnesses when she

490
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: went back to them, refused to do that. They did

491
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: not trust the police for all sorts of reasons you

492
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: can imagine, and weren't willing to take that risk because

493
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: they were obviously scared. And ultimately she asked Curtain Carlos

494
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 2: to help, and they said they would, but they did nothing,

495
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: and they kind of call some friends for advice, and

496
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: they do nothing because they're scared, and the alleged killers

497
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: ended up getting killed themselves, and Curtain Carlos reflect on

498
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 2: that experience and they say, the next time this happens,

499
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: we're actually going to do something. But but from that

500
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: you can see what the key insight is. It's really

501
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: the reason there's a lack of justice is because the

502
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: witnesses are unwilling to testify in a formal criminal proceeding,

503
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: and that is how you know a homicide case is

504
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 2: typically solved. So the idea that they developed is really

505
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: focused on bridging that gap between witnesses and law enforcement.

506
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: So how, I'm just curious, how did this woman's husband's

507
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: killers get killed themselves by another gang? No?

508
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: So the police, you know, the police MO at this

509
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 2: point and for a few years thereafter, is like they

510
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: do very little policing, and then they'll do a huge

511
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: raid with a lot of cars and cops and helicopter support.

512
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: And in this case, that group of guys allegedly killed

513
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: the cop a few months later, and that was what

514
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: sparked the response. So at that point they swept in

515
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: there and did a very aggressive operation.

516
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had wondered when you said that ten percent

517
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: were seriously investigated. I had wondered if the ten percent

518
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: probably were from the or echelons who had been murdered

519
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: or robbed or whatever, and that was what it would

520
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: take to get an investigation.

521
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a place like nuevasu Yapa, the numbers were

522
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: probably way lower than the average, because you know, it's

523
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: just on the one hand, the cops were probably scared

524
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: themselves to go there for good reason. I mean, I

525
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: just told you about a cop who was killed there

526
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: when he was I think he was on his like

527
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 2: first week on the job in Nuevasuyapa. And then the

528
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: cops also probably noticed some extent like they're not going

529
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: to get help from the witnesses there, so maybe they

530
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: focused their resources elsewhere.

531
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen this on Netflix, there's

532
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: a really good series out of India about the small

533
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: village that was terrorized by a gang, just terrorized by

534
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: one particular gang leader who had sexually assaulted women in

535
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: the village and it was just awful. And they eventually

536
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: got together and all these women at the same time

537
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: while he was in court and open court, and they

538
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: stabbed him to death, all of them, and the police

539
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: couldn't prove who had done the fatal blow. I'm sure

540
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: there were many fatal blows and so none of them.

541
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: I think there were some that were arrested, but that

542
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: was in it. I'm not sure if it cleared out

543
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: the gang problem, but they basically cut the head off

544
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: the snake. He was the one controlling all of these

545
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: other people. So you know, that was the only way

546
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: this really, really impoverished village was able to take back

547
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: some control. Was they had to do it because nobody

548
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: else was helping. And so that's where I was wondering,

549
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: if this is where this is going to go, how

550
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: do you empower people who probably don't even have enough

551
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: personal belongings for gangs to extort from them, let alone

552
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: have police protection.

553
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the first thing I'll say is when you

554
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: see it a lot of crime and violence and impunity

555
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: in your community, and you want to take it bettern

556
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: matters into your own hands. The natural impulse is violent vigilanteism,

557
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: kind of what you just described, and there's a lot

558
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: of that in Unduras. There's a lot of that in

559
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: my book. People whether they're members of the community or

560
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: members of the police force, who just say, screw it,

561
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm done with these guys. I'm going to go kill them.

562
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: And there's lots of problems with them, you know, Curtain

563
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: Carlos say, we don't like that. We think that is

564
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: evil and problematic as well, so we're going to come

565
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: up with a different solution. And what they do is

566
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: say we're going to solve homicides and gang crimes, and like,

567
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: you know, that doesn't sound like something private citizens could do.

568
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: When we think about solving murders, we think of that

569
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: being something that the government should do, and probably only

570
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: the government should do. But if you actually look at

571
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: the mechanics of how that happens step by step, you

572
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: realize that private citizens can do a lot of it.

573
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: And it's actually probably interesting within the context of the

574
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: true crime community because we've seen that with these very

575
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: salacious serial killer cases a podcast or starts investigating, finds evidence,

576
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: finds witnesses, and helps solve the case. But what Curtain

577
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: Carlos were doing was basically applying a little bit of

578
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: that concept to ordinary street crime. You know, a popular culture,

579
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: we're used to seeing the murder being solved by the

580
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 2: genius detective or the CSI tech finding the clue. But

581
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: in reality, like most cases are closed because of witnesses,

582
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: someone knows what happened and is either willing to testify

583
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: about it in court under oath or isn't. And you

584
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: don't need a badge to figure out who the witness

585
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: is to convince her to testify and to keep her alive.

586
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: And then you know, a private citizen obviously can't make

587
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: an arrest, But the clicking on of handcuffs isn't really

588
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: what was inhibiting apprehensions. In new episode Yappa, the bigger

589
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: issue was that the cops didn't know who the culprits were,

590
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: what they looked like, what their real names were, where

591
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: they were going to be at Thursday at five pm,

592
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: and they often didn't have a vehicle to transport themselves

593
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: to that location. So a private citizen could do all

594
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: of that. So what Curting Carlos did was they hired

595
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: a private eye and a lawyer and a psychologist who

596
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: in secret started doing all the things I just described.

597
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: So on the one hand, it was witness cultivation, and

598
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: on the other it was gathering intelligence about the gangs

599
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: and delivering that to the authorities. The third piece, once

600
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: arrests were made and they were finally was putting a

601
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: ton of pressure on prosecutors and judges to actually lay

602
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: down the law.

603
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: So I mean that just seems like an enterprise in itself.

604
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: Where is the money coming from to pay these people?

605
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: Is I know that Kurt was connected to an NGO,

606
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: I didn't know if that was an NGO that he

607
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: had set up in Honduras.

608
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Kurt and Carlos around a charity called the

609
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: Association for a More Just Society. So this was all

610
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: done within that organization. As I said, it was kind

611
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: of a clandestine division of it. But it was a

612
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: small time. You know that most of their funding at

613
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: this point came from you know, Kurtwood tour churches around

614
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: the Midwest and you know, for a month a year

615
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: and raise fund from friends and family and other members

616
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: of sort of the Dutch Midwest culture, but it was

617
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 2: a real shoe string budget in the early days. Things

618
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: changed over time, but at the beginning they did this for,

619
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 2: you know, without much money.

620
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: So did you say, is it the attorney who is

621
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: kind of in charge of going to Ross and say,

622
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: you know you'll be safe, but we need a statement

623
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: from you. The only thing that's going to change is

624
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: people like you standing up. Is that the person who

625
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: has to it's like an impossible task.

626
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 2: It really does seem like an impossible task. Like if

627
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 2: you were to ask people before they started, could you

628
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 2: pull this off? I think they would say no, it's impossible.

629
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 2: Like A, you yourselves are going to get killed for

630
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: poking around and asking questions about this gang, and B

631
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 2: nobody's going to do this. Why the hell would they.

632
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: They're just going to get themselves hurt. So the people

633
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: who are actually doing that work initially it's the lawyer

634
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: and the private eye, and you know, they have different

635
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: personalities and I think they, depending on the person, decide

636
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: who's the better one to go speak. Kurting Carlos themselves

637
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: sometimes get involved in certain of those conversations, but it's

638
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 2: really the lawyer in the private eye. And I think

639
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: the incredible thing, and this is like a testament to

640
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 2: the human spirit, is like over and over again, just

641
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: when you think you've seen the most intimidating, violent, terrifying

642
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: gang member and that no one in their right mind

643
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: would ever testify against them, you see throughout this book

644
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: just these incredible, anonymous heroes who when approached by someone

645
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: who's not the cops, someone who kind of has a

646
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: religious sheen to them, that they will step up and

647
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 2: do the right thing at great personal risk. And I

648
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: think in many ways this book is like an homage

649
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: to witnesses. And I was just so impressed and amazed

650
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 2: by these people who did step up and did go

651
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 2: to court and testify, because without that, you're never going

652
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: to have justice, and without justice, you're never going to

653
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 2: have prosperity.

654
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: I mean, because I have to think, Okay, what are

655
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: the other tools that you would use to successfully prosecute

656
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: a gang member who's accused of murder. Let's say CCTV,

657
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: no CCTV, and then you know somehow tracing cell phones,

658
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: you know everything that every technology that we would use,

659
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: I'm assuming is not useful. You know. In this Mario

660
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 1: in particular.

661
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about two thousand and five and a

662
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: really poor part of hondurass so a lot of those things,

663
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: you know, even to the extent there were cell phones,

664
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: Like did the police force really have the resources to

665
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: do those types of investigations and get that information? But

666
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: I think even in the United States people would be

667
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: surprised at the extent to which, you know, like back

668
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: when we were doing our research into all of this

669
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: and talking to cops and like reading all the investigations

670
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: and research that have been done into it, Like, I

671
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: think it really is true that that in the vast

672
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 2: majority of cases, it's like this testimony is the thing

673
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 2: that it all hinges on. And I think it's interesting

674
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: because like in you know, once again in popular culture,

675
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: it's usually the detective or the prosecutor who like is

676
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 2: the hero in the situation. But I almost would like

677
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: recommend shifting the locus of that a little bit to

678
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: these to these witnesses who are often unheralded and in

679
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: the case of Honduras, actually anonymous because they were allowed

680
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: to testify under the cloak of anonymity. And one of

681
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: the really brilliant things that Curt and Carlos and their

682
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: staff did was take advantage of that because the police

683
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: and prosecutors weren't so like, one very simple thing they

684
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: did was sewed together these robes which looked exactly like Burka's,

685
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: and they would dress their witnesses in them when they

686
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: went to court. And you know, if it was a

687
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 2: person with a distinct body shape, they might add pillows,

688
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: it was a person who had a distinctive height, they

689
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: might put them in a wheelchair. So lots of creative

690
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: ingenuity to disguise the people. They eventually were voice disorders

691
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 2: into it as well.

692
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: So wow, well I want a good example from you.

693
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: You said that they weren't able to help the widow

694
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: and she ended up getting some mondmum justice later on.

695
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: But what was the next incident? They said, the next time,

696
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 1: we're going to do something about it. So what was

697
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 1: that next time for them?

698
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the next time was the rise of this gang,

699
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: the Buccos, So they kind of were kids at that point,

700
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: but then they essentially commandeer this barrio and they are smart,

701
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: so they systematically confiscate firearms from residents from security guards.

702
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: They are brutal.

703
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: Their's instance where they kidnap these two sisters who pedal

704
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: candy on the street and gang rape them down by

705
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 2: a brook And it's just terrible. And not only do

706
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: they do they do that, but they go to them

707
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: after and say, don't you dare tell anyone about this.

708
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: They're committing all sorts of crimes, extortion, theft, murder, and

709
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: they're intimidating witnesses. And the other really infuriating thing about

710
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 2: the situation is despite the blatantness of the crime, they're

711
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 2: getting away with it. So one thing I should explain

712
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: is the leader, who's this guy Chalito, and a lot

713
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: of his people. They actually get arrested quite often, so

714
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: the cops will take the step of going in and

715
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 2: arresting them, but they often stay in jail for a

716
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 2: very short period of time, a matter of days, weeks,

717
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: or months. And sometimes it's just because the cops have

718
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 2: no evidence, so the judge says, well, you haven't proven anything,

719
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: so we have to let these guys go. Sometimes it's

720
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: that they escape from the juvenile prison, which is extremely porous.

721
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: And it's just such an infuriating situation for the community

722
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: to see this crime and to see this sort of

723
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 2: yo yoing from police custody back to the barrio and

724
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 2: people are fed up. And at this point, Gourdon Carlos

725
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 2: say we're going to start this project, and the spark

726
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: is an arrest. Chalito and three other guys get picked

727
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 2: up by the police, and Kurt and Carlos say, this time,

728
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: we're going to try to make sure they stay there.

729
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 2: So they hire a lawyer and start recruiting witnesses and

730
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: that's how this all begins, and you know, they end

731
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 2: up having a lot of success, but it's a very

732
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: difficult road there, with a lot of twists and turns,

733
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: a lot of collateral damage, a lot of moral quandaries

734
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: they find themselves in. But that that's the starting point.

735
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: How do you find an attorney that's going to be

736
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: brave enough to actually go out there and be seen

737
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: talking to people? Where did this person come from?

738
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: So this is I think one of the most interesting

739
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: parts of the story is they say we want to

740
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: hire a lawyer and a private eye. And you know,

741
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: they and their organization are very religious, very focused and

742
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 2: dedicated to human rights, but the type of people who

743
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 2: will do the work that they want done are not

744
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: choir boys. And the first batch of people they approach,

745
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 2: say are you kidding me? Like, no freaking way will

746
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: I do that? And then the people that they do

747
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 2: finally find who are willing to do this are people

748
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: with very different values, you know. So the lawyer is

749
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 2: an atheist, he's got a ponytail, he likes heavy metal music,

750
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: he's brash, he's arrogant, he's disrespectful in the office. The

751
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 2: private eye is a former soldier who's a very tough,

752
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: militant guy who kind of placed by his own rules

753
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: and does operations with the cops, and you don't really

754
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: know what he's doing in the obscurity of that, and

755
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: it raises a lot of questions and ethical questions as well.

756
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: But they're very effective. So that puts curtain Carlos in

757
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: this dilemma where they're getting witnesses, they're eventually getting arrests,

758
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: are doing things that they don't approve of. So it's

759
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: a challenge to grapple with that.

760
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: What are they doing? You know?

761
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: I think one of the big issues from the beginning

762
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: is police violence. So the first big raid that the

763
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: charity successfully organizes, there's about ten of the gang members

764
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: who get captured, but the lawyer who's the one there

765
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: at the time is aghast because once the suspects are

766
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: already handcuffed, he sees the police beat the crap out

767
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: of them like one kids so bad that his mandible,

768
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: his jaw is broken, he can't eat solid food for

769
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: a month. He sees the cops threatened to cripple a

770
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 2: detainee with aluminum baseball bat. He sees cops enter homes

771
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 2: without warrants, And this is just how the hunter and

772
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: police did things at the time. And you know, he's

773
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: very disapproving of that curtain. Carlos are very disapproving of that.

774
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: But as I said before, or it worked, they got

775
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: these guys arrested. So right there, you're confronted with this dilemma.

776
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: Do we stop, do we file the complaint with internal affairs?

777
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: Do we expose this to the press, and they don't

778
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: know what to do? And where I'm getting with this

779
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: is the private eye who comes in a little bit later.

780
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: He's way more permissive of this type of stuff, and

781
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 2: he eventually becomes the one who's out in the police

782
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: with operations on operations. And you know, when it was

783
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 2: a lawyer, you had some degree of transparency and just

784
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, just like negative reaction to it, but with

785
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 2: the operative and I don't really have evidence that he

786
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: himself did anything, but there's definitely questions that he was

787
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: getting very actively involved in arrests and the operations, and

788
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: at the very least was sort of turning a blind

789
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: eye to it. And that raised a lot of alarm

790
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: bells in the charity and it made this a difficult

791
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 2: thing to just decide what to do.

792
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so they had to I think you're saying the

793
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: book they kind of from idealistic to pragmatic because now

794
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: they're in an area where they can't really create rules.

795
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: They have to play within the rules that they're given

796
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: to be able to get an optimal result. So you know,

797
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: kind of giving me that example where they're holding their

798
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: noses at both of these guys. Where does the psychologist

799
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: come in? Is that later too? Yeah?

800
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: So the program really starts off with the private eye

801
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: and the lawyer, and things are going well. They're building

802
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: this network of informants, they're recruiting witnesses, they're getting arrests,

803
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: they're building relationships with the police and the prosecutors. But

804
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: then one of the program's closest informants, who's someone who's

805
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: provided a lot of information and help them out a lot,

806
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 2: does something that is very out of character and puts

807
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 2: himself in a great deal of danger and is killed.

808
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: And it's a real horrible tragedy. And I think at

809
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: that point it becomes clear to Kurt In Carlows that

810
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 2: solving murders isn't just an investigative and legal challenge. It's

811
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: also an emotional and psychological one because it all hinges

812
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: on witnesses who are human beings, and these are people

813
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 2: who have some piece of information in their head. It

814
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: might pertain to the loss of someone they loved, it

815
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: might pertain to the most horrible thing that they have

816
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: ever seen, and it's all on them, and they're participating

817
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 2: in this legal process which might drag on for months

818
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: or years, and having to talk about this over and

819
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: over again, and throughout this entire period of time, they

820
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 2: have to live in fear that they're going to be

821
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: retaliated against. So it's a very emotionally difficult thing to

822
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 2: deal with. So they decided to bring a psychologist on

823
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: and like the psychologists would provide formal therapy to witnesses

824
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: and informants, but also just be kind of like a

825
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 2: friend and an ear and a person who could talk

826
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: without legal ees and was just a little bit softer

827
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: than the private eye and the lawyer. And I think

828
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: the trio, the three of them, is what made the

829
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: program work. It's all about focusing on what are witness's

830
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: needs and how do we make them comfortable testifying?

831
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: What was a psychologist like? Was this somebody who was

832
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: also sort of a sketchy person or is this the

833
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: angel a lot of the three of them.

834
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: That's a great question, you know. I think the first

835
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: person who they brought in to do it was an

836
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 2: American social worker who was already working in a different

837
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 2: part of the charity. And no, I mean she was

838
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: not like that, but she couldn't. It didn't work because

839
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: she clashed so much with a private eye and the lawyer.

840
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: And you know, there were all these really difficult situations

841
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: that arose when you started bringing those different types of

842
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: people under the same roof. Just the personalities didn't fit.

843
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: But then they brought another person in and for whatever reason,

844
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 2: it worked and she was great and they were able

845
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 2: to work cohesively and get these cases closed.

846
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: When we last heard about Schalito and his gang, you

847
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: said he and another one had been arrested, and Kurt

848
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: and Carlos said, we've got to figure out how to

849
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 1: keep them in. Did they find witnesses who were willing

850
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: to testify? Was this sort of the first instance of

851
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: their plan kicking in.

852
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as I said, like, they say, we're going

853
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 2: to do this, We're going to find witnesses, they get

854
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: the lawyer hired, and like remarkably, in very short order,

855
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,959
Speaker 2: they find a handful of witnesses who are like, yes,

856
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: we will testify against these guys. And it's like incredible,

857
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 2: you wouldn't think that would be possible, but but they do.

858
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 2: And then they go to the juvenile court and testify,

859
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 2: and the kids end up the judge ends up ruling

860
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: that they're going to stay in prison until their trial

861
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: in however many months, And that's like a huge win

862
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: because that wasn't happening before. Usually at that stage, the

863
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: judge you would have to let them go because no

864
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: witnesses would show up, there was no evidence, so the

865
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 2: case couldn't proceed. But you know, once that happens, you

866
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: see the problem with this. So in a matter of weeks,

867
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: Chalito and a number of other Pucos escape the juvenile prison,

868
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 2: and they immediately take revenge on the people who they

869
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 2: think are the witnesses. So a woman gets killed and

870
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: someone else gets stabbed, and they actually are not the witnesses.

871
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: The witnesses testified anonymously. But right there, Curtain Carlos are

872
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: once again forced to grapple with the situation. So this

873
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: has to happen. There has to be justice, We have

874
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 2: to lay down the law. But doing so is going

875
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 2: to get people hurt. There's going to be collateral damage.

876
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 2: Should we keep going or are we in over our

877
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: heads here?

878
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: So what's the next step? I'm assuming there's another incident

879
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: coming up pretty quickly.

880
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mentioned the other informant who was killed. But

881
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: alongside all of this is progress, and it's really important

882
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 2: to remember how enraged and fed up people were with

883
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 2: this gang. And then the other thing I should mention

884
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 2: is we talked about this a little bit before, but

885
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 2: violent vigilantism was the alternative response and that was happening too,

886
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 2: and Curtin Carlos felt this enormous sense of time pressure

887
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 2: to prove that their program could work, could get these

888
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: people arrested, because they didn't want the vigilante response to

889
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: rise up strongly and for there to be like an

890
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: explosion of mono amano violence because they had seen that

891
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 2: happen before and knew how damaging that was.

892
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: Well, how do you promise witnesses? Well, I don't know

893
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: if they were able to make any kind of a promise.

894
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: What would the lawyer say? If there is a teenage

895
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: girl who's witnessed the murder of her parents, she's the

896
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: only witness, how can you I mean, it's obvious the

897
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: person who's going to testify is going to be her.

898
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 1: If anybody's going to testify, how can you promise somebody

899
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: like that protection from a gang who's clearly going to

900
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: know who she is.

901
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great point because, like even I could

902
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: think of some cases where like there was anonymity in

903
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 2: the witnessing. She was wearing the robe, she was in

904
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: a wooden box, but you could tell who it was

905
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 2: because she was the only one who would have known

906
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: about the crime. So I think you probably can't really

907
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 2: promise that they'll be totally safe. But you know, in

908
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: that situation you're describing, the person probably does feel some

909
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 2: like civic duty to help take down the gang. But

910
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: there's also something personal there, and people feel in need,

911
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: I think, to at some level avenge their relatives and stuff.

912
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: And I wish I could have been there for some

913
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 2: of those conversations and how they convince them, but I

914
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 2: think it was probably less convincing and more facilitating a

915
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: desire that was already there and just creating the conditions

916
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 2: whereby people could fight for justice.

917
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: When does it become clear that this is working? Does

918
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: it take months or years? And tell me how many

919
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: people are in this area? I should have asked you

920
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 1: this sooneror how is this Mario exactly?

921
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 2: Population estimate it's a little shaky, but I think it's

922
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: like twenty five or thirty thousand, So it's a decent population,

923
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: and you know, just like the results, I mean over

924
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 2: the span of like three years. Well, and I should say,

925
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: there's first the Puco's gang, which we've talked about, but

926
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: I'm sort of giving away a little surprise here in

927
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 2: the book. But there's a second gang, which is a

928
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 2: vigilante gang which sort of rose up to fight the

929
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: Puchos but ended up being even more cruel and problematic

930
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: and scary. And so that's the second group that this

931
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 2: charity has to deal with and sort of taking on

932
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: those two gangs and really taking them down. Happens over

933
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 2: the course of about three or four years, and during

934
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: that time, the charity helps get one hundred people arrested,

935
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 2: helps win seventy convictions, and the crime rate declined substantially.

936
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: You know, nuevasu Yappa was and never has been a

937
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: safe place, but it never has been as bad as

938
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 2: it was then.

939
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're seeing a crime rate drop, I mean,

940
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: is there a percentage? What's the estimate? By fifty percent?

941
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 2: I'm just being a little careful because the data that

942
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: they cite is like shows an eighty percent decline in

943
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 2: homicides over that period. The statistics were a little shaky

944
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: back then. But but the good news is after they

945
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 2: did the program in new episode Yappa, they expanded it

946
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: to like five or six other neighborhoods into Gusagalpa and

947
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: San Pedro Sula, which is the other major city in Honduras.

948
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 2: And that time there was a team of researchers who

949
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 2: formally evaluated it, and those results are like really solid,

950
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: and they showed declines in the monthly average number of

951
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: homicides per month of like fifty percent sixty seven percent,

952
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 2: like huge, huge declines. So the program has proven to

953
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: be quite effective.

954
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: And this is fully supported at the time or even

955
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: now by the federal government, by Honduras as president.

956
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: No, I mean certainly not the president. This was all

957
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 2: being done very quietly, very secretly. But but you're actually

958
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 2: getting at something really important here, which is the magic

959
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: of this trio of private eye, lawyer and psychologists. Wasn't

960
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 2: just that they were good with witnesses. It's also that

961
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: they were good with cops and prosecutors, because you know,

962
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 2: you could imagine a situation where like those people would

963
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 2: have felt like these people were encroaching on their turf.

964
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: But the private eye, especially who is sort of a

965
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 2: cop personality, was very good at bringing the cops onto

966
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 2: his side. And he would do that just by hanging

967
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 2: out with them, but also by like giving them funding.

968
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 2: I mean there were police units which had no chairs

969
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 2: in their office, so he would buy them chairs. As

970
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 2: I said, gas money was a huge issue. He would say, look,

971
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 2: I'll pay for your gas money if you come to

972
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: Neufasuyapa and arrest this guy. Then the prosecutors were obviously

973
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 2: very important too, and they let the charity be very

974
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: involved in developing and you know, obviously not arguing in

975
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 2: court the cases, but but in marshaling the witnesses through

976
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 2: the many, many months that these trials would would last.

977
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: Now, you know, so maybe this is too much of

978
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: a pie in the sky question, but I'm sure so

979
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 1: much of the gang activity as a result of how

980
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: they grew up in poverty and feeling like there was

981
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 1: no other option, you know, the cyclical part of corruption,

982
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: and how are you going to work within the system

983
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: when the system's not working and you need to work

984
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: out of the system. Was there a way to then

985
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: be able to turn the tide and say, now that

986
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: we're trying to reduce crime, maybe we can help with

987
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: the economy or education or any of the big, big

988
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: picture issues that we know leads to crime.

989
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: You know, there's a point in the book where they've

990
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: done this program, they've had a lot of success with it,

991
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: and Curt and Carlos say, look, we can keep expanding this,

992
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 2: but it's kind of a micro scale thing. We can

993
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 2: only do it neighborhood by neighborhood, and we want to

994
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 2: affect Honduras at a national scale. And this happens around

995
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: twenty eleven, when the country is the you know, has

996
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 2: the highest homicide rate in the world. There's just been

997
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 2: a coup. It's a very chaotic and bad situation for

998
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 2: the country. And they really transform their charity from this

999
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: kind of under the radar, grassroots thing to a very public,

1000
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 2: very formalized institution which is trying to change Honduras at

1001
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,479
Speaker 2: a national scale. And you know, one of the things

1002
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 2: they work on is education. And at the time, the

1003
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 2: average student was only getting substantially less than they were

1004
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 2: supposed to, one hundred days less, and they work on

1005
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: that and it turns out that twenty five percent of

1006
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: the teachers on the payroll nationally weren't even real teachers.

1007
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 2: They were just sort of political operatives collecting a paycheck.

1008
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,320
Speaker 2: And they did this series of expos's about the national

1009
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: education system, and that got all the ghost teachers purged,

1010
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 2: It got the education minister fired, and then they deputized

1011
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 2: this almost nationwide army of mothers to go to all

1012
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 2: schools with a clipboard and keep track of how many

1013
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 2: days per year the pupils were there in getting classes,

1014
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 2: and in very short order it got to where it

1015
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 2: was supposed to be.

1016
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: Now, where will this work around the world doesn't need

1017
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: to be impoverished countries I'm assuming. I mean, where does

1018
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 1: Kurt and Carlos and vision that's going everywhere? Yeah, I

1019
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: don't know.

1020
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: I mean they're focused on Honduras. I mean, there's a

1021
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: lifetime's worth of work to do there. But I mean definitely,

1022
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: Like in regards to the criminal justice program we've been

1023
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: talking about, I think they see that as transportable, and

1024
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: you know, the issues of crime and impunity and not

1025
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 2: trusting the police and witnesses being scared to testify is

1026
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: a problem in Chicago as well, and I think they

1027
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: would argue that this model might work there. And you know,

1028
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's places in Brazil and Mexico and El

1029
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 2: Salvador and other countries as well where where that model

1030
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 2: could be transported, especially now that there's an evidence base

1031
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 2: to show it works. And I think that would be

1032
00:56:58,640 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 2: a good idea to try that.

1033
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: So where are these two guys now and their families?

1034
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: Are they still in the same barrio they moved around?

1035
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've only talked a little bit about the

1036
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 2: like political efforts that they've done, but that's as dangerous

1037
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 2: as the gang efforts and Carlos becomes a public figure

1038
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 2: who's regularly in the news, who's meeting with ambassadors and

1039
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: presidents and ministers, and during that process, his life is threatened.

1040
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 2: You know. The big thing that they work on is

1041
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 2: purging the police force. So that's something that people have

1042
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 2: been wanting to do in Honduras for a very long time.

1043
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 2: And Kurt and Carlos gained this amazing, shocking level of

1044
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 2: political power and are more or less given the keys

1045
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,919
Speaker 2: to purge the police force. And that's extremely dangerous, and

1046
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: you know, through that process, Carlos life is threatened, and

1047
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 2: though he really really doesn't want to, he has to

1048
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 2: leave nuevasu Yapa, which is a very tragic and sad

1049
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 2: thing for him and his family. So he no longer

1050
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: lives in the neighborhood Kurt does, but they're they're still

1051
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 2: down there doing the same.

1052
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: Stuff, amazing, and Kurt has to have been threatened. I'm

1053
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: assuming through all of these years, you know.

1054
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: Kurt has always been more behind the scenes. There's been

1055
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: a few little, tiny, random one off incidents here and there,

1056
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 2: but he really hasn't. It's actually been others who've borne

1057
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: the brunt of it. And I think part of that.

1058
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: I don't think that's necessarily him like cowering from it.

1059
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 2: I think he has this sense that as a gringo,

1060
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 2: it's not really appropriate for him to be the outward

1061
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 2: facing part of the organization. So you know, in the

1062
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 2: New vs. Yapa days, it was the lawyer and the

1063
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 2: private eye who were really most putting their lives on

1064
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 2: the line. And then you know, there's a in the

1065
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 2: second part of the book, which we haven't a chance

1066
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: to talk about, one of their employees is assassinated, and

1067
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 2: that's a different type of work but also very very,

1068
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 2: very dangerous. And then in the political side, you know,

1069
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 2: once again Kurt doesn't want to be the one in

1070
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 2: the news, so it's really Carlos who becomes the face

1071
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 2: of the organization.

1072
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: I had also wondered if there was a certain amount

1073
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: of fear of murdering an American citizen in Honduras and

1074
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: what kind of firestorm that could cause.

1075
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: It's funny you should say that, because there's this sense

1076
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 2: in Honduras that the gangs like don't touch gringos because

1077
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 2: if they do that, they'll be hell to pay. And

1078
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: some of your listeners might be familiar with the Kiki

1079
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: Camarina story. He was a Dea agent in Mexico who

1080
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 2: was tortured and killed in a terrible way in the eighties,

1081
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: and one of the people who was accused of orchestrating

1082
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: that was a Honduran narco trafficker, and the Feds basically

1083
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 2: went to Honduras, got him and put him in a

1084
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 2: federal prison in Colorado, where he spent his life, and

1085
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 2: that has imbued in hunder and criminals, the sense that

1086
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to really touch gringos. However, one of

1087
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: the reasons Calito has become such a famous and notorious

1088
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: figure in Honduras is because he himself took part in

1089
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 2: the noontime killing of a Dea agent in Honduras. And

1090
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 2: that really is when his days are numbered. He was

1091
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 2: there an accessory to the killing. I don't think they

1092
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 2: did it because he was a Dea agent. It actually

1093
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 2: looks like it was an accident, kind of a botch robbery.

1094
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 2: But that's when he becomes this very famous figure in Honduras.

1095
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 2: And Lo and behold, the cops know nothing about him,

1096
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 2: know nothing about the Pucos, but the private eye working

1097
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 2: for Curtin Carlos approaches them the next day and says, look,

1098
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 2: I've got all this information. You think his real name

1099
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: is this? No, it's actually this. I've mapped out their

1100
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 2: whole neighborhood. This is where he lives. He will be

1101
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 2: there tomorrow. This is how you can go in and

1102
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 2: sort of corner him. And at that point Chilito is arrested,

1103
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 2: and in part because of the charity, the case against

1104
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: him is successful and he's put into this special sell

1105
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: there's like a tower over it. They compare it almost

1106
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 2: to like a Hannibal Lecter type situation because he's monitored

1107
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven by this person watching him from

1108
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 2: above through a cage, and he ends up spending the

1109
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 2: rest of his life in prison.

1110
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: Is he still alive. Well.

1111
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 2: Part of his legend is in twenty twelve he was

1112
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 2: in a prison he had been moved to kind of

1113
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 2: a medium security prison called Koma Yagua. It was a

1114
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 2: prison with a capacity for three hundred and fifty people,

1115
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 2: but there was nine hundred there. Back to the gills,

1116
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 2: there were no fire extinguishers, smoke detectors or anything like

1117
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 2: that in the building. The guards were outside the gates

1118
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 2: and a fire sparked and it was the most horrible tragedy.

1119
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 2: Three hundred and fifty six people were incinerated. There's a

1120
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 2: question was he one of those sort of cremated bodies

1121
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 2: there or is he one of the people who got away.

1122
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 2: Officially he's dead, but the legend of him continues and

1123
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 2: still to this day, people in Neuvcu Yapa will say, no,

1124
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 2: he's alive, and he's the one who started that fire.

1125
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: There's a little l Chapo about him, is what it

1126
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: sounds like.

1127
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 2: No, his escape artistry is very much part of his legend. Well,

1128
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 2: even before that, as I said, people in knevs Yappa,

1129
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 2: you'd see him get arrested and then he'd be back.

1130
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 2: I mean, he probably escaped from the juvenile prison. I

1131
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 2: would guess like four or five times.

1132
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: You know, I'm one of the things that I want

1133
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: to end on. You talk about this book, you talk

1134
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: about Kurt and his outreach and wanting to help kids

1135
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:33,439
Speaker 1: in this barrio, and then he must have just seen

1136
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: over the years that evolved into you know, gangs, and

1137
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: I had wondered if there were there was a point

1138
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: where he was seeing these kids that he knew turning

1139
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: into predators. Was that the case?

1140
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean both him and Carlos. I mean, Carlos

1141
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 2: is running a school, and so they were very intimately

1142
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 2: connected to all of these kids. Even Chilito. Chialito wasn't

1143
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 2: a student at Carlos's school because there were only so

1144
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 2: many spots, but his mother was a borrowed money from

1145
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 2: the micro lene under genesis. The school ran camps in

1146
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 2: the summer. Chialito sometimes went to those, So not just Chilito,

1147
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 2: but a bunch of these kids. Kurt and Carlos knew them,

1148
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 2: knew their families, knew their siblings. It was all very intimate.

1149
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 2: And even I mentioned that gang member who was arrested

1150
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 2: and they beat him up so bad that they broke

1151
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 2: his mandible. I mean, first of all, he wasn't really

1152
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 2: one of the violent gang members. It seems like it

1153
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 2: seems like he was more tangential. But he was very

1154
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 2: much part of Kurt's church community. He was a student

1155
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 2: at Carlos's school, so that they knew him, and even

1156
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 2: once he was in prison, I mean, they would visit

1157
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 2: him and it was all interconnected.

1158
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: Gosh, to see an area of transition like that and

1159
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: then to try to to be a hand in improving it.

1160
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: What an incredible story. What are you hoping people learn

1161
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 1: from this book?

1162
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think part of it is just like this

1163
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 2: lens into a world which we only hear about in

1164
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 2: the back end through the deportations in the border. I

1165
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 2: think it's so fully a valuable thing for people to

1166
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 2: really get to see a lot of different aspects of it.

1167
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 2: But I think there's an element of just like when

1168
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 2: we try to take on problems, humanitarian problems, especially like

1169
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 2: these are guys who brought a level of creativity and

1170
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 2: bravery to it which really stands out to me. I

1171
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of thinking in sort of the

1172
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 2: development world that is repetitive, and I think these guys

1173
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 2: really challenge a lot of that. And then I think

1174
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 2: on the criminal justice side, I really, as I said before,

1175
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 2: I think this book is an homage to witnesses. I

1176
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: think what Curt and Carlos did there in Neuvasu Yappa

1177
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 2: was really all revolving around them, and I hope people

1178
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 2: come to appreciate that. And I think that's true there

1179
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 2: and it's also true here.

1180
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1181
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, all about the

1182
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, all that is Wicked and American SHERILOK and

1183
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 1: don't forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1184
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 1: crime podcast, tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

1185
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1186
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1187
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

1188
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

1189
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

1190
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

1191
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold

1192
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 1: More And if you know of a historical crime that

1193
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

1194
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 1: email us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also

1195
01:05:46,680 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 1: take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words. Yeah,