1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we cut 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: through the noise to try to get to the heart 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: of what matters today. We're diving into the growing threat 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: of China's global ambitions with renowned China expert Gordon Chang. 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: From China's troubling alliance with Iran particularly at this time, 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: including suspicious cargo flights and a four hundred billion dollar partnership, 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: to espionage, to bio weapons smuggling, to farmland purchases near 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: United States military. 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: Basis, We're going to explore all of it. We're also, by. 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: The way, that recent announcement from FBI Director Cash Bettel 11 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: that China potentially sought to influence the twenty twenty election. 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 2: What's that about? 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: What do you need to know? We'll also talk about 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: China's desire and you know, looking at Taiwan as well. 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Where does President Trump's resilient and strong attack against Iran 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: leave those ambitions? So we've got a lot to unpack, 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: a lot to get into and who better to talk 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: about all things China than Gordon Chang. 19 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: Stay tuned. 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: Well, Gordon, it's great to have you on the show. 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: First time on the show. Obviously a lot's been happening 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: in the world, So I'm really interested in getting your 23 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: perspective on the China element of everything. So I appreciate 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: you making the time. 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, Lisa. So I want to get. 26 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: Into you know, obviously we've been watching everything happening and 27 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: unfold in the Middle East over I guess it's been 28 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: a week and a half so far. You know, we 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: were joking before it kind of feels like we're living 30 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: in dog years. Everything is just you know, moving so quickly. 31 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: But you know, China and Iran signed a twenty five 32 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: year partnership, this sort of strategic pack talk about how 33 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: does that shape what we're seeing happen in the Middle East, 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: specifically with Iran, Like, what is China's role been in this, 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: what is China's role and you know, does that deal 36 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: impact anything? 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: Walk us through that. You're referring to the twenty twenty 38 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: one agreement, which was twenty five year strategic comprehensive partnership 39 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: agreement where China, among other things, agreed to invest four 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: hundred billion dollars into Iran. The Iranians complain that the 41 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: Chinese and this has been traditional, very much of what 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: they have done in the past. The Chinese have not 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 2: honored their part of the bargain. They have not been 44 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: putting money into Iran as the Iranians expected. But there's 45 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: a broader context here, And if I can walk back 46 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: a couple of years, we go back to March twenty 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: twenty three. That's when China broker and historic pack between 48 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia and Iran for the re establishment of diplomatic 49 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: relations and the patching up of ties in general. And 50 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: then it looked like China was driving events in the 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: region and the US was not. That the US was 52 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: withdrawing and China was taking over. And this was true 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: even up to July of last year, when China got 54 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: fourteen Palestinian factions to actually traveled to the Chinese capital 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: and inc the Beijing Declaration, which is a unity pact, 56 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: and then it just China was dominant. But what's happened 57 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: since then has been a stunning reversal of fortunes for Beijing. 58 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: And what we're seeing now is that those two historic 59 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: accomplishments are in tatters. Saudi Arabia and Iran are very 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: much at odds right now, and that Beijing Declaration fell apart, 61 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: because a week afterwards a bomb in an a Hamas 62 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: guest house in Tran killed Ishmael Hania, the political leader 63 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: of Hamas. So really China has been in trouble in 64 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: the last couple months. China has lost Saudia Arabia, it's 65 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: lost Syria, it's lost Katar, and it's now because of 66 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:11,559 Speaker 2: the war losing Iran. So China is just in disarray 67 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: in the Middle East, where once it looked like it 68 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: was going to take over. Part of this is because 69 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: President Trump's diplomacy with regard to the region has been 70 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: spectacularly successful, as it was during his first term. You 71 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: go back in the first term, we had the four 72 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: Abraham Accords, two in the Middle East, two in nearby 73 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: North Africa. Joe Biden came into office pledging to make 74 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia a pariah. So our relations with our traditional 75 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: Sunni friends in the region just fell apart. But Trump 76 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: has been able to reverse that damage. He had it 77 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: a historic trip through the three Gulf States last month. 78 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 2: And just in general, we see Israel taking a part Iran. 79 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: One other thing in in terms of general background, and 80 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: that is that China fully backed to RAN's assault on 81 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 2: Israel starting in October seventh and twenty twenty three, we 82 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 2: saw China's full in support for the attack on the 83 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 2: Jewish state. We know that Iran and its three main 84 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: terrorist proxies Hamas has blown the Huthi militia, all have 85 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: large quantities of Chinese weapons. Iran's own weapons are made 86 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: with Chinese microchips. China has been providing diplomatic support, propaganda support, 87 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: and China takes more than ninety percent of Iran's exports 88 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: of crude oil. You put this all together, China has 89 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 2: lost its friends in the Middle East. See, it's interesting. 90 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: How you lay that all out and piece it all together, 91 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: because you know, President Trump is constantly underestimated, and in reality, 92 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: he's very thoughtful, and so as you pointed out just 93 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: even just the recent you know, trip to the Middle 94 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: East with the Golf States, of how impactful that has 95 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: been about trying to sort of isolate China and to 96 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: re establish America as you know, the global superpower and leader. 97 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: And so he's very smart and how and also or 98 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: China is Iran's top oil buyer, So how is this 99 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: war impacting China from an oil perspective? 100 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think the Chinese must be in a panic 101 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: right now. Remember the fifty percent of China's oil transits 102 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 2: the Strait of Hormones, and just about thirty six hours 103 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 2: or so ago, the Iranian parliament back the closing of 104 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 2: the strait. Now, I don't think that will happen, largely 105 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: because the Chinese are backers of Iran, and this would 106 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 2: impact China in a way of basically taking down its economy. 107 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: It would have to in very short order drain its 108 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: strategic petroleum reserve, something that Biging, which is preparing for 109 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 2: war in general, just doesn't want to do. So this 110 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: is a pressure point, and it is one which the 111 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: Chinese are very keen, uh, very aware of, and it 112 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: should be one that we're aware of as well, you know. 113 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: And China uses sort of like financial investments throughout the 114 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: world to make inroads and you know, to a sort 115 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: of establish dominance. We're sort of seeing President Trump, you know, 116 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: do a lot of that, particularly in the Middle East, 117 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: with a lot of these financial deals that he announced 118 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: upon leaving, particularly with Saudi Arabia and Gatar as well. 119 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: You know, as he said that the paths in the 120 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: Middle East this through commerce, not chaos. 121 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: You know, I wanted to ask you. 122 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: Under the biod administration, we saw a lot of Chinese 123 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: nationals try to cross the southern border and also enter 124 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: into the country as well. 125 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: Why are they doing that? 126 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: What's what is the purpose, what's the what's the intention 127 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: behind that. 128 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: During the Biden years, we saw this almost unprecedented, actually 129 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: unprecedented surge of Chinese migrants into the US, primarily through 130 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: the southern border. And in the beginning of this surge, 131 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: it really looked like these were desperate Chinese who wanted 132 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: to live in our country. But towards the middle and 133 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: end of this the composition of the Chinese migrants changed 134 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: and it became I think ominous. What we were seeing 135 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: were towards the middle and end of the Biden years, 136 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: packs of Chinese males of four to fifteen military age, 137 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 2: traveling without family members, some of them pretending not to 138 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: speak English. Border Patrol knows that some of them had 139 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: links to the Chinese military, And in the very last 140 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: months of the Biden administration, some of these packs were 141 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: coming across Lisa with identical kit so that gives us 142 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: a hint of what's going on. Also, we have a 143 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: problem in our northern border. So in February of last year, 144 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: border patrol and apprehended three Chinese migrants trying to sneak 145 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: in under the cover of darkness into Maine. What made 146 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: this particularly disturbing was that there was a fourth Chinese 147 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 2: national on our side, again, a migrant who was obviously 148 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: thereby pre arrangement to help them get in. Now, if 149 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: you're desperate Chinese who wants to live in a free society, 150 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: the first thing you do is you surrendered a border patrol, 151 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: try to get yourself into the asylum queue. Also get 152 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: benefits from New York City and other places. So if 153 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: you're coming in and you're trying to avoid detection, which 154 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: is what these three were trying to do, then you're 155 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: coming here for some nefarious purpose. We know that there 156 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: has been as this migrant surge has occurred, there's also 157 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: been a big uptick in Chinese nationals trying sneak into 158 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 2: our military bases, some of them successfully. We have also 159 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 2: seen illicit Chinese surveillance of our military facilities and Chinese 160 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: surveillance of our infrastructure. So clearly what's occurring is that 161 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: these elements Chinese military, maybe Ministry of State Security, they 162 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: are studying our patterns. They're looking for our vulnerabilities. In 163 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: other words, they're planning to strike. So we should assume 164 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: that one of the first signs that there will be 165 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: war in East Asia will be actually an attack on 166 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: the United States from our own soil. And by the way, Lisa, 167 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 2: this will be the first time since the War of 168 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: eighteen twelve that Americans will have had to fight a 169 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: foreign enemy on their own soil in a sustained battle. 170 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: So let's be sure that we understand what's coming, because 171 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: all the elements for the attack are already in place. 172 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: Got to take a quick commercial break worth Gordon Chang. 173 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: On the other side, how does President Trump's response to 174 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: Iran and dropping those bombs in Iran and sort of 175 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: like the show of force and the fact that we 176 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: now have leadership in the United States again and that 177 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: he means red lines and when he says sixty days, 178 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: sixty days is meaningful. You know what message does that 179 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: send China? Like does that make them less hesitant to 180 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: try to do anything under President Trump's tenure? You know, 181 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: would it be are they more wait and see to 182 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, kind of see what happens with the next election, 183 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: or you know from what you laid out about this 184 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: attack from China. How does President Trump's you know, peace 185 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: through Strength and this response impact China's decision making. 186 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: That's the most important question that anyone is asking, and unfortunately, 187 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 2: of course, we don't know the answer. I think that 188 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: in the Middle East, China doesn't have the firepower, either 189 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: literally or figuratively, to challenge the United States, but it 190 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: does have the ability to help Iran by disrupting East Asia. 191 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 2: On the nineteenth of this month, China began air incursions 192 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: against Taiwan, which had been quiet up to then. We 193 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: saw starting on the nineteenth, seventy four Chinese planes get 194 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 2: near Taiwan's airspace. Sixty one of them crossed the Median Line. 195 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: That's the line down the middle of the Taiwan Strait, 196 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: which has generally been considered the unofficial border between China 197 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: and Taiwan. So China's sending planes east of the Median 198 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: line is considered to be a provocative act, and since 199 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: that time, China's continued the air incursions. The number of 200 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: planes that have gotten near Taiwan is now up to 201 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: about ninety or so, and at the same time on 202 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: the nineteenth, that same day that the air Camp Pain started, 203 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: the Philippine Coast Guard announced that there were more than 204 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: fifty of China's maritime militia boats flooding into Philippine waters 205 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: at Iroquois Reef in the South China Sea. So this 206 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 2: is China. I'm maybe trying to take advantage of what's 207 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 2: going on in the rest of the world, or trying 208 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 2: to back off the Trump administration. But there's one other thing, though, 209 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: and this is showing what you were talking about before 210 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: about the effectiveness of Trump policy, and that is on 211 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: the twenty first, the day that Israel started, that we 212 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: bombed those three nuclear sites in Iran, Reuters reported that 213 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: the Pentagon told the news service that the United States 214 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: was sending B twos to Guam, and at the time, everybody, 215 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: including me, thought that this was the final warning to Iran. 216 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: But as we look back at this sequence of events, 217 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: we can understand that B two's in Guam would not 218 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: be of military relevance for an attack on Iran for 219 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: a lot of reasons, but they would be of relevance 220 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: for backing off China. So I think that that the 221 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: Pentagon leaking this to Reuter's was essentially Trump's way of 222 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: telling the Chinese don't even think about it. I don't 223 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: know that, but when we look at what's occurred, it's 224 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: appeared that that was President Trump's message to the Chinese leadership. 225 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: Is China? 226 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that China is somewhat cautious, 227 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: like you know, they're not as a little bit more 228 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: cautious than you know ran which you know, they're kind 229 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: of like crazy, and you know what I mean? Is 230 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: that fair to say that they're a little bit more 231 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: thoughtful about things, a little more cautious. 232 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: They are thoughtful, but sometimes their thinking leads them to 233 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: do things which are really dangerous. And we have seen 234 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: this with Chinese provocations against South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, 235 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: and even far away Australia. And what I worry about 236 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: is that one of those low level provocations spirals out 237 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: of control, and if it does, then we probably are 238 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: headed for war in East Asia because the Chinese political 239 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: system is now configured so that only the most hostile 240 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: answers are considered acceptable, which means that China can't deal 241 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: with the rest of the world in a responsible way. 242 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: If there is a crisis and China is provoking these 243 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: crises just basically hoping that everybody backs off, but there 244 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: could be clearly miscalculation. And we have seen very belligerent 245 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: Chinese activity in the skies over East Asia, challenging Australians 246 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: and US are planes, and one of those could one 247 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 2: of those incidents could go wrong, just as it went 248 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: wrong on April first, two thousand and one, the EP 249 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: three plane incident. And that incident was solved only because 250 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: the Bush administration made unacceptable concessions to China, and so 251 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: we disused it by basically surrendering. I don't think that 252 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: we're going to do that again. We shouldn't have done it. 253 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: Then that opened the way I think to showing China 254 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: that belligerence works. We can't afford to do that again. 255 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: And I hope President Trump would not adopt such a 256 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: submissive position as George W. Bush did in two thousand 257 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: and one. But if we don't, it means there will 258 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: be a crisis. The crisis will heat up, and this 259 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: will be one of those consequential moments in history. 260 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: Well, you know, we've got the right man in charge 261 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: for these moments, in my opinion. 262 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely. 263 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: FBI Director Cash Ptel sort of dropped an interesting bomb 264 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: earlier this month, declassifying a twenty twenty internal FBI intelligence 265 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: document and sharing it with the Senate Judiciary Committee, and 266 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: it claims that the Chinese Communist Party produced counterfeit US 267 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: driver's licenses and shipped them to the United States during 268 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election with the intent to try to 269 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: help Joe Biden allegedly. 270 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: What do you know about that? Does that add up? 271 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: And to what extent? To what extent did China try 272 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: to influence the outcome of the twenty twenty election. 273 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: We know, in general China was very involved in the 274 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: presidential election in twenty twenty. It supported Joe Biden over 275 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders and the Democratic primaries, and it supported Biden 276 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: over Trump in the general election. And China went all 277 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: in on social media, both that we could see in 278 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: that which was meant not to be seen. We know 279 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: from New York Times reporting that China was using text 280 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 2: messages spreading false and very damaging rumors about President Trump, 281 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: especially in connection with the Stafford Act. But China used Twitter, 282 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: Facebook and it's other social media instruments, and they really 283 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: went after Trump. We saw some really dangerous, very provocative 284 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: acts on the part of China in twenty twenty. They 285 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: were counterfeiting US currency and trying to smuggle it into 286 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 2: the US. They were smuggling in automatic weapons parts, which 287 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 2: takes basically permits someone to convert a gun into an 288 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 2: automatic weapon. We also saw something even worse, and that 289 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: was Radio Free Asia reported in August twenty twenty. Eligence 290 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: Unit of the People's Liberation Army actually based themselves in 291 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: the now closed Houston consulate and from there they used 292 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 2: big data to identify Americans likely to participate in violent protests, 293 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: and then they sent those Americans' videos on how to riot. 294 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: And we've learned from related reporting that those tailor made 295 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: videos were tiktoks. Also, there was a Chinese official who 296 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: openly on Twitter in October of twenty twenty advocated Americans 297 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: to commit acts of violence and specifically to throw petrol 298 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: bombs on American streets. These are acts of war. And 299 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: so you put that cash Betel's revelation of the fake 300 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 2: driver's licenses, it fits within a pattern, and that pattern 301 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: was very effective. One can argue that China elected Joe 302 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: Biden in twenty twenty, So we've got to understand the 303 00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: significance of this. 304 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: Does China own the Biden family considering the financial entanglements, it. 305 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: Certainly influences the Biden family. What we know. You know, 306 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: I can't get into the minds of Joe Biden, but 307 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: you can see what happened. The Chinese regime poured something 308 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: like two point three or so million dollars into the 309 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 2: hands of Hunter Biden, and he did so under circumstances 310 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: that scream corruption. So for instance, and this is admitted 311 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 2: by Hunter Biden's legal team, that they received money as 312 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: good faith seed funds. Now, in commercial context, nobody would 313 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: pay money as a good faith seed fund less of 314 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 2: all the Chinese unless they were trying to bribe the 315 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 2: Biden family. So yes, I think that they certainly influenced 316 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: the Biden family and influenced Joe Biden's decision. And you know, 317 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 2: of course there was the money through the Penn Center 318 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: at the University of Pennsylvania. I'm sure that there was 319 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 2: money that leaked in through other ways. We know the 320 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 2: Chinese themselves believe that they bought the Biden family. Chinese 321 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: professor d Dung Chong in November of twenty twenty gave 322 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: a livestream lecture throughout China that talked about China's attempts 323 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: to influence the Biden family. Just to give you a 324 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: sense of what he said, he said, basically, no American 325 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 2: could stand up to the Chinese because they could buy 326 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: every American. And he said d Dung Chung said that 327 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: China's traditional means of exerting influence at the highest levels 328 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: of the American political system had been broken because Trump 329 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: during his time in the first term in office wasn't 330 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 2: listening to Wall Street or Henry Kissinger, but that the 331 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: Chinese then, remember this is after the twenty twenty election, 332 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: the Chinese then looking again to re establish those links. 333 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: And d Dongsheng got his biggest laugh of his lecture 334 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 2: when he mentioned the Chinese characters for Hunter Biden. So 335 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: we know what the Chinese felt about this and how 336 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 2: they looked at it. 337 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: And we also all know about Representative Swalwell and his relationship, 338 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: and then also about Dianne Feinstein employing a Chinese spy 339 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: as a driver for I think it was like twenty 340 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: years or something. So if that's just what we know about, 341 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: then you know what else has happened that we don't 342 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: know about, right so. 343 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and Swalwell is a really instructive case. I mean, 344 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 2: I don't know it was in Swalwell's mind, so I 345 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: don't assume that he's well. 346 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: He's a man, So I think I have an idea. 347 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, let me say this. China's Ministry of State Security, 348 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: in the form of the very should I say, good 349 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 2: looking attractive agent Christine Wong, first contacted Swalwell, not when 350 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: he was on the House Intelligence Committee, where he would 351 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 2: have been of great benefit for China. The Administry of 352 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: State Security first contacted Swalwell when he was sitting on 353 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: the City Council of Dublin City, California. And that means 354 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: I can't believe that Swalwell was the only person being groomed, 355 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 2: because clearly he was being groomed. I'm not saying he 356 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: gave into and gave valuable information to China, but I 357 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: am saying this is not about Swalwell in this sense 358 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: so much. This is about the China's pervasive efforts because 359 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of Swalwell's in our 360 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: country where China has contacted them at a very early 361 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: stage in their careers. And we know that Christine Fong. 362 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: She was not partisan. She was up to corrupting Republicans 363 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 2: as well as she in fact did it. So this 364 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: is this is a bipartisan problem. And of course we 365 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: have had some of former Republican officials lobby directly for China, 366 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 2: which is disgraceful. So this is a bipartisan problem. We've 367 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: got a problem on both sides of the political divide. 368 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: We've also seen another, you know, some really troubling incidents 369 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: with agroterrorism concerns and and bioweapons. I know you've written 370 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: about it and you've raised the alarm about it with 371 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: some Chinese nationals being caught trying to smuggle in some 372 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: toxic fungus into the United States. 373 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 2: Walk us through that. 374 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: Uh, you know, what do you think the broader strategy 375 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: is for China here? How much of a threat are 376 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: we already facing with us? And kind of what does 377 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: it all mean? 378 00:24:54,040 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: China means to destroy American agriculture and American ranching, and 379 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: this is part of their just unrestricted warfare campaign, their 380 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: total war against the United States. I mean, this month, 381 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: three Chinese researchers risk their careers by trying to smuggle 382 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: in biological agents into the United States. The first two 383 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: who were charged were trying to We're working with a fungus, 384 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: and you know, people can say, well, this fungus is 385 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 2: common throughout the world, so this can't be a big deal. Well, yes, 386 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: it can be a big deal if this fungus was 387 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: genetically modified, which I believe it must have been, because 388 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 2: why would they risk their careers to do this. So 389 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 2: if China is able to own farmland, which it does, 390 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: it would be able to take a genetically modified agent, 391 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: which is probably more resistant to pesticides, was probably easier 392 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: spread and decimate American agriculture. This headblight that this fungus 393 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 2: goes after wheat barley. I think it's rice maze, and 394 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: it causes reproductive problems and vomiting in animals and humans. 395 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 2: This has got to be seen in the context that 396 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: for at least a half decade, China has been trying 397 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: to plant invasive species in our countries. So in twenty twenty, 398 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 2: Americans in all fifty states receive seeds from Chinese parties unsolicited, 399 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 2: and so that is a real warning sign and that 400 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 2: efforts continued because this year Team mod, the online Chinese retailer, 401 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 2: was caught sending seeds unsolicited into the US, and in 402 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: one case, a Chinese party sent in a container of 403 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 2: unknown liquid to an American unsolicited. So yeah, they're trying 404 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 2: to take down our agriculture and our ranching. 405 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 3: Is that terrorism, Well, the FBI the Eastern District of 406 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 3: Michigan called the fungus that was brought in an agro 407 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: terrorist agent. 408 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: I'm not so sure that terror. You know, terror. When 409 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: I think of terror, I think of physical violence. But 410 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 2: this was this was worse in a sense, more dangerous 411 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: to the United States than an active terrorism or most 412 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: acts of terrorism. So this was this was an attack 413 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 2: on the United States. This was an act of war, 414 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 2: and that's I think that's the best way to characterize it, 415 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: you know, to put this into context. I'm sorry for 416 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 2: going on here, but I want to know it's please. 417 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: In May twenty nineteen, People's Daily, which is the most 418 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: authoritative publication in China, carried a landmark editorial that declared 419 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 2: a quotquote people's war on us. We Americans didn't notice 420 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: because we don't think very much a propaganda, but this 421 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: phrase people's war has great importance in Communist Party thought, 422 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: and in twenty twenty three, PLA Daily, which is the 423 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: main propaganda organ of the Chinese military, helpfully defined People's 424 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 2: war as quote unquote total war. We know that China, 425 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 2: although it denies it, China has a doctrine of unrestricted warfare, 426 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: which comes from the title of that nineteen ninety nine 427 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: book by then two Chinese Air Force colonels, which argued 428 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: that China could do anything to take down the US. 429 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: And you mentioned terrorism. That book talks about Bin Laden 430 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: hitting the US. Remember this is two years before nine 431 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: to eleven. China publicly talks about getting Bin Laden to 432 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: attack US. And by the way, China's had at that 433 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: time had very strong relations with the Taliban in Afghanistan. 434 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: So yeah, we have to understand that we're under attack 435 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: and these are acts of war, and so far no 436 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 2: president has taken the necessary steps to protect us from 437 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: this with the vigor and determination that's necessary. And I 438 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: hope President Trump starts to take more determined steps against 439 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: China because we are on the edge of pretty catastrophic 440 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: events and President Trump can stop it, but we need 441 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: to have the American public behind him. So this should 442 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: be an all of society effort. 443 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: Quick break, stay with us, and then before we go 444 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: I've got to get your take on the tariffs back 445 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: and forth between President Trump and China, sort of what's 446 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: your broader perspective on what has taken place so far? 447 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: And also where is that heading? How much can we 448 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: extract from China? Sort of how do you see this 449 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: playing out? 450 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that we need to have high tariffs 451 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 2: on China as to impose costs for the theft of 452 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: US intellectual property and for increasingly predatory trade practices. So 453 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: I was very happy to see President Trump put tariffs 454 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: on China, the general one hundred and forty five percent rate, 455 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: in some cases two hundred and forty five percent when 456 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: you added the other tariffs on. I didn't like the 457 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: May twelfth agreement that was announced. The Chinese have violated 458 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: that agreement with continuing its ban on exports of rare 459 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: earths to American companies. President Trump needs to actually impose 460 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: some severe costs on China for violating that agreement. So far, 461 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: he hasn't, and I'm looking forward to him pivoting because 462 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: the Chinese have taken their measure of him. And I'm 463 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: not saying this is right, because I don't believe it's right. 464 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: But the Chinese believe that they can force Trump to 465 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: back down on things like TikTok and tariffs, and so 466 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: Trump needs to disabuse them of that notion because if 467 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: he doesn't, this is going to work out very badly 468 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: for US. I believe President Trump actually believes in tariffs. 469 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: We know that during the campaign he was talking about 470 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: McKinley and the history of tariffs, which means he really 471 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: believes it. So I hope that he guts back to 472 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: his instincts and hits the Chinese hard for continuing for 473 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: their continuing to hit us. 474 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he's been talking about them since like 475 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: the seventies or the eighties. 476 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: I think. 477 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: Then the last question before we go, what is possible 478 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: in trying to untangle ourselves from China's economy? You know, 479 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: what is doable? What is possible? And does President Trump 480 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,239 Speaker 1: of interest in doing that? 481 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: Do you mean supply chains? Pardon sir? 482 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, just try just trying to untangle. Obviously, we're so 483 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: reliant on China from an economic standpoint. Obviously we just 484 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: talked about tariffs as well, but like, how do we 485 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: decouple from China? 486 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: Is it even possible? 487 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: And what does that look like? 488 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: It's certainly as possible. I mean, we had a really 489 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 2: we had no trade relationship with China, and we built one. 490 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: So if it can be built, it can be taken apart. 491 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: Treasury Secretary Bessant has actually said that we need strategic decoupling, 492 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: in other words, things like rare earths and other things 493 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: that we absolutely depend upon. I think President Trump really 494 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 2: believes that there should be a bigger decoupling, though he 495 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 2: has not in fact said that, but clearly his actions 496 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: have started the decoupling process. And he did that in 497 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: his first term with the tariffs that he imposed in 498 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. So clearly this is something. This is long 499 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: held views, and so I do believe that we will 500 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: see further decoupling. And part of it, you know, Lisa, 501 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 2: is not just US. It's the Chinese pushing American companies 502 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 2: out of China. So it's both push and pull, and 503 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: I believe it will happen, especially because as China threatens 504 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: to go to war, even C suites are going to 505 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: understand that they've got to get their companies out of China. 506 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,239 Speaker 1: Really interesting stuff, scary, but very interesting. We appreciate your 507 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: sharing your expertise with us. Gordon Chang really really interesting. 508 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time. 509 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: Well, I really appreciate it, Lisa, and thanks so much. 510 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: And stay safe. 511 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: That was Gordon Chang. Appreciate him for making the time 512 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: to come on the show. Appreciate you guys at home 513 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen 514 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: throughout the week until next time.