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Speaker 1: The thing it creates.

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Speaker 2: My hopeful democracy is just It makes people realize that

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Speaker 2: they can do more than just vote, and that they

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Speaker 2: can solve the problems. The more you make friends and

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Speaker 2: the more you have fun doing this thing, the more

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Speaker 2: you want to continue, explore, learn, and then you learn

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Speaker 2: more about the problem and you say.

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Speaker 1: What can I do more? And then it becomes kind

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Speaker 1: of a natural path.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to How the Citizen with Baratunde, a podcast that

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Speaker 3: reimagined citizen as a verb, not a legal status. This

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Speaker 3: season is all about how we practice democracy, what can

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Speaker 3: we get rid of, what can we invent, and how

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Speaker 3: do we change the culture of democracy itself. We're lieving

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Speaker 3: the theoretical clouds and hitting the ground with inspiring examples

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Speaker 3: of people and institutions that are showing us new ways

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Speaker 3: to govern ourselves. At the start of COVID, I remember

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Speaker 3: being terrified. The streets requiet, The coyotes and the deer

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Speaker 3: had started taking over our driveways and our sidewalks. For

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Speaker 3: those of us who could stay at home, Depending on

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Speaker 3: who you were, it was shocking but kind of easy.

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Speaker 3: For others, it was life denying, especially if you were

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Speaker 3: someone who lived in an elder care facility. I remember

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Speaker 3: phoning up my friend a lot during this time, and

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Speaker 3: I'd always make sure to ask him about his grandparents.

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Speaker 4: I'd never actually met them.

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Speaker 3: But I felt like I did because he talked about

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Speaker 3: them so much, so they'd always come up in conversation.

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Speaker 3: He shared this story that they were both living in

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Speaker 3: the same care facility, but they were each being isolated

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Speaker 3: in different rooms in different wings.

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Speaker 4: Of the building.

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Speaker 3: In fact, they were together but completely alone, and that

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Speaker 3: was so sad to me. At the same time that

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Speaker 3: this deep loneliness was being experienced by so many people

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Speaker 3: around the world, there were also people with nothing to

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Speaker 3: do at home, feeling helpless but wanting to feel helpful,

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Speaker 3: and finding out that Christian vani Zett, the person you're

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Speaker 3: going to hear from, helped spark a phone calling program

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Speaker 3: that matched young people with elders to keep them company.

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Speaker 4: That was just really moving to me.

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Speaker 3: On the surface, this idea of young people calling old

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Speaker 3: folks homes sounds real basic, But then the majority of

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Speaker 3: our human needs are real basic. It doesn't mean that

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Speaker 3: they're easily or regularly met. Though this program it became

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Speaker 3: so popular that the French government added it to its

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Speaker 3: official volunteering website, so not that basic, and that's just

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Speaker 3: one of thousands of projects that Christian has helped bring

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Speaker 3: to life. Christian was born in French Polynesia, in Tahiti actually,

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Speaker 3: and now he lives in Paris. My wife and I

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Speaker 3: met him through our friend Diana and American who's basically

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Speaker 3: living a better version of that Netflix series Emily in Paris. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: we were recently in Paris between work gigs and decided

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Speaker 3: to interview Christian in person. We walked over to his

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Speaker 3: offices in the Bastille neighborhood where the French behead their

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Speaker 3: leaders okay, one of the places the French behead their leaders.

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Speaker 3: I was so excited to be there that I didn't

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Speaker 3: make sure we had the best audio setup, so you

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Speaker 3: may be able to hear that we're in an office

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Speaker 3: and not in fact a sound padded studio. And I

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Speaker 3: may have clipped Christians mic to his hoodie drawstring because

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Speaker 3: I'm not a professional sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: What I am instead is someone who's very excited to

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Speaker 3: add Christian's voice to the how the citizen world. He's

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Speaker 3: built something that is moving and so perfectly aligns with

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Speaker 3: the way we see citizen as a verb. I also

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Speaker 3: want to make sure that how the citizen isn't just

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Speaker 3: an American thing.

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Speaker 4: Even though I am a very American thing.

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Speaker 3: I love America and I love not America as well,

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Speaker 3: and we got a lot to learn from people outside

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Speaker 3: of this country. Christian has inspired this global movement of

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Speaker 3: citizens who are passionate about crowdsourcing solutions where they lives

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Speaker 3: to our most pressing social and environmental problems.

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Speaker 4: And he's done it by essentially.

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Speaker 3: Becoming a recruiter and I'd even say a matchmaker. The

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Speaker 3: organization he co founded, makes Sense, draws in citizens who

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Speaker 3: want to take action but don't know where to start.

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Speaker 3: Does that sound like somebody you know? The group places

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Speaker 3: them in small teams of strangers who want to make

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Speaker 3: a difference on the same issue, and then it empowers

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Speaker 3: them by giving them opportunities to shape the projects they'll

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Speaker 3: be working on, opportunities to learn from each other, to

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Speaker 3: become team leaders, and then to recruit their own friends

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Speaker 3: and start the cycle all over again. Since starting a

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Speaker 3: decade ago, makes Sense has seen nearly three hundred thousand

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Speaker 3: people attend workshops, has opened offices in seven countries, and

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Speaker 3: has started volunteer chapters in over one hundred cities around

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 4: It's been so success.

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Speaker 3: Christian's gotten the attention of many government leaders and was

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Speaker 3: recently selected as an Obama Scholar Fellow. Remember Obama. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we still like that, dude, And yeah, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 3: Volunteerism has been around for a very long time, and

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Speaker 3: we've definitely seen a lot of organizations that help place

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Speaker 3: volunteers inside of other organizations. But the method that makes

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Speaker 3: sense uses it's bottom up, it's citizen led, locally based,

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Speaker 3: and the work and the projects that they foster and

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Speaker 3: support they're culturally appropriate to each place.

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Speaker 4: Because makes sense.

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Speaker 3: HQ is taking all its directions from the people on

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Speaker 3: the ground, not imposing some top down template from on high.

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Speaker 3: And now a decade in Christian and the organization's many

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Speaker 3: volunteers have increasingly turned their retention to the fight to

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Speaker 3: stop and even reverse climate change.

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Speaker 4: We know the basics here.

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Speaker 3: Humanity's got limited time to a climate disaster, and we

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Speaker 3: need to reduce our carbon emissions dramatically to achieve that.

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Speaker 3: That means more electric cars, renewable energy, regenerative agriculture. It

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Speaker 3: also means we need to stop fossil fuel extraction, and

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Speaker 3: that's going to be hard. Researchers have identified hundreds of

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Speaker 3: carbon bombs, like coal mines and oil and gas projects

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Speaker 3: that would release at least one metric gigaton of carbon

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Speaker 3: dioxide emissions if they move forward. You don't have to

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Speaker 3: know what a metric gigaton of carbon means. Basically, the

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Speaker 3: people who do know what this means, the experts. They're

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Speaker 3: terrified of these carbon bombs because they understand that if

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Speaker 3: they get built, it likely means the planet will warm

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Speaker 3: past one point five degree celsius, the threshold set by

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Speaker 3: the Paris Agreement, and warming past that number could intensify hunger, conflict,

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Speaker 3: and drought worldwide. Now, one of these projects is the

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Speaker 3: East Africa Crude Oil Pipeline aka e COOP, and it's

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Speaker 3: run by the China National Offshore Oil Corporation and the

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Speaker 3: French oil giant Total Energies or TOTAL for short. There's

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Speaker 3: a campaign to stop it and it's called wait for it,

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Speaker 3: stop ECOP.

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Speaker 4: I Love the creativity Now.

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Speaker 3: Christian helped launch this campaign in France based on what

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Speaker 3: he's learned from a decade and makes sense and the

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Speaker 3: ways stop ECOP is trying to diffuse this particular carbon bomb.

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Speaker 3: It's creative, strategic, it's even fun, which isn't something I

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Speaker 3: generally associate with the climate movement.

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Speaker 4: Like in se Ufa, who we.

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Speaker 3: Heard from earlier this season, Christian is finding ways to

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Speaker 3: bring joy and communal connection to the ways we participate.

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Speaker 3: But instead of focusing on elections, he's bringing that energy

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Speaker 3: to the ways we volunteer and even the ways we protest.

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Speaker 3: You'll hear how Christian helped create a global movement and

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Speaker 3: just how organized it is right after the break.

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Speaker 5: Hello Christian. Hell, So what is makes sense?

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Speaker 2: That makes sense is a nonprofit that started in Paris

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Speaker 2: and basically we trained community organizers all across the world

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Speaker 2: so they mobilize volunteers and the community for social environmental issues.

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Speaker 1: And it's a yeah, ten years ago.

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Speaker 2: Now it's about three hundred employees across the world and

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Speaker 2: more than three hundred thousand volunteers.

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Speaker 3: Three hundred thousands, So you've basically built an army that's undeclared.

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Speaker 1: Does the UN know about your army? It's a yeah.

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Speaker 1: We just built a way for people.

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Speaker 2: When they see a problem, we train them and they

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Speaker 2: know how to mobilize other volunteers and we lin them

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Speaker 2: up with experts social entrepreneurs and then the cities the

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Speaker 2: self organized fifteen to do the thing they want to do,

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Speaker 2: like collect things, help the elderly, but beeping themselves and

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Speaker 2: not needing like a big angeo like the Red Cross

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Speaker 2: to tell them what to do.

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Speaker 3: So take me back to the beginning of makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Who were you before then? What were you doing with

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Speaker 3: your time? How old were you and how did this idem?

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Speaker 2: So I come from Tahiri, French Polynesia, and I arrived

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Speaker 2: in France for my business school and during the time

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Speaker 2: in the business school, I studied social entrepreneurship, so it

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Speaker 2: was really interested in how business can do good.

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Speaker 1: My dad from in the book of Again Them.

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Speaker 2: Muhammad Junus at the Nobel Lar Rate of Peace in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and six.

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Speaker 3: I'm interrupting my own interview with Christian to add a

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Speaker 3: little context. I like to call these explainer ton days.

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Speaker 3: Professor Mohammad Yunis you just heard mentioned, is a giant

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Speaker 3: in the world of social entrepreneurship. He started this project

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Speaker 3: called the Gramin Bank in Bangladesh in the late nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventies and it became internationally renowned for its revolutionary system

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Speaker 3: of micro credit, which gives loans to entrepreneurs too poor

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Speaker 3: to qualify for traditional bank loans, and it's helped millions

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Speaker 3: escape poverty.

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Speaker 4: As a result.

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Speaker 3: The unique feature of Gramen is that no collateral is

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Speaker 3: required to get the credit. Doctor Eunis was one of

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Speaker 3: the first leaders to talk about the possibility for business

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Speaker 3: to do good and set limits on infinite profits. His

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Speaker 3: concept of a social business defines financially self sufficient businesses

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Speaker 3: as those whose primary aim is to address a social

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Speaker 3: problem and not pay dividends to its owners. This idea

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Speaker 3: often referred to as social entrepreneurship. It's inspired many people

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Speaker 3: in the world of business and economics. It actually sparked Elizabeth,

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Speaker 3: my wife and executive producer of this show, on her

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Speaker 3: journey around all this too. In fact, you could say,

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Speaker 3: Professor Unis is one of the reasons we even know

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Speaker 3: each other.

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Speaker 4: And now back to my conversation with Christian.

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Speaker 2: And Muhammad Junus at the Nobelar Rate of Peace in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and six, and so I was reinspired by

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Speaker 2: how you use business to do good, and so in

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Speaker 2: the business school with my friend Omar, he said, okay,

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Speaker 2: what about we create a platform where people can support

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Speaker 2: social businesses, so people who start business to do good.

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Speaker 2: And this is how the idea of make Sense was bormnbed.

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Speaker 2: And to start, we decided to go at the root

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Speaker 2: of where social entrepreneurship for us was invented, which was

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Speaker 2: in India and Bangladesh. And so we negotiated with the

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Speaker 2: school that instead of going to university abroad was supposed

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Speaker 2: to go to Germany, that we do a backpack trip

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Speaker 2: for six bombs.

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Speaker 3: So you convinced the schools starting about in Germany, you've

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Speaker 3: got to backpack around.

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Speaker 1: Around India Bangladesh.

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Speaker 2: And so we went with backpacks to meet social entrepreneurs

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Speaker 2: and do videos about them and start to build this

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Speaker 2: platform where volunteers could come and help them with years.

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Speaker 2: This was twenty ten and so makes Sense were just

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Speaker 2: a Facebook page at that time, and every time we

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Speaker 2: were arriving in a city like in Mumbai, we would

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Speaker 2: start a Facebook group to say, hey, we organized the

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Speaker 2: workshop to help this project that's helping people with disabilities

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Speaker 2: have access to the information in a.

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Speaker 1: Subway back, do you guys want to come help?

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Speaker 2: And so every part of the trip we started a

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Speaker 2: Facebook group and then we organize the first workshop, which

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Speaker 2: is a tree a wall workshop. People would come together

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Speaker 2: give ideas and skills to the entrepreneur.

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Speaker 1: We called it the hold up of ideas, a hold up.

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Speaker 2: So then we gave the pdf in the Facebook group

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Speaker 2: how people could continue to do it, and every time

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Speaker 2: we go and now there's like two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: Facebook groups and people using the method.

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Speaker 1: And this is what makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Was bombed was really organic and kind of just people

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Speaker 2: using simple tool kits of workshops by themselves.

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Speaker 3: And how do you because so much of what many

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Speaker 3: of us understand social improvement change like you need expertise,

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Speaker 3: you need deep training, and you're a kid with a

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Speaker 3: backpack and a dream. You're not from India or Bangladesh

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Speaker 3: in this particular case, I presume you don't have a

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Speaker 3: deeps you of understanding accessibility in public transit in India.

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Speaker 3: So what role are you playing in bringing strains in

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Speaker 3: the form of these entrepreneurs and strangers in the form

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Speaker 3: of these volunteers together to try to solve their local problem.

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Speaker 2: So the main point was to say, we want volunteers

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Speaker 2: from the city itself. And so what we acted like

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Speaker 2: was just facilitate all with a toolkit and methods and

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Speaker 2: also connection between these local communities, because when you're in

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Speaker 2: Mumbai or when you're in Marseilles, France and you're a

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Speaker 2: student in a business school you want to do good.

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Speaker 2: You feel kind of alone in your school, but then

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Speaker 2: thanks to the internet, if you there's someone else who

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Speaker 2: also feels alone on the other side of the world

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Speaker 2: and who has the same ideas as me. And so

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Speaker 2: by the role was really to facilitate with methods, but

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Speaker 2: also connect all these communities that want to make change

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Speaker 2: on a global scale. We use all the tools of

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Speaker 2: community organizing, so all the local staff, local office are

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Speaker 2: run by locals and they decide by themselves what they

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Speaker 2: want to do, so it's not like the headquarters giving orders.

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Speaker 2: And this is what's a bit different from other engels.

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Speaker 3: You've described playbooks, workshops or process and community organizing as

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Speaker 3: the kind of DNA. Where did you learn these things

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Speaker 3: yourself or where did the organization in each journey decide

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Speaker 3: this is what belongs in the playbook, This is how

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Speaker 3: we're going to organize ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the playbook was really about how to run a brainstorming,

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Speaker 2: so it wasn't even as like how to community organize.

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Speaker 2: At first, it's just how to get people together and

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Speaker 2: one can participate and give ideas. Basically creativity workshops and

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Speaker 2: ways to create edits together with post its and in

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Speaker 2: a country like friends might seem obvious in the US,

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Speaker 2: but in France, since you're a kid at school, we

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Speaker 2: never ask you what is your idea or we always

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Speaker 2: think there's a right answer or a wrong answer, and

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Speaker 2: we can only talk, I shot the right and sell.

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Speaker 2: And so for students in France to just say I

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Speaker 2: don't need to be an expert, I just come to

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Speaker 2: this workshop and I can express myself, give my point

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Speaker 2: of view, my ideas, and so this is would make

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Speaker 2: it go like super fast. And then from the trial

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Speaker 2: and error process we've filled into the longer thing of

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Speaker 2: organizing your local chapter and other methods to keep bringing

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Speaker 2: people together.

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Speaker 3: And how have you been able to make sure that

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Speaker 3: the solutions and the ideas and the creativity people are

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Speaker 3: putting forth are actually relevant and have a positive outcome

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Speaker 3: for the core problem that they're trying to address.

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Speaker 2: So for us, the expertise and the local knowledge is

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Speaker 2: the entrepreneur or the angel who work on the field

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Speaker 2: for many years and they define what is the challenge,

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Speaker 2: what is the ideas they need? And then the volunteers

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Speaker 2: come and help. So the two legs of makes sense

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Speaker 2: or supporting the entrepreneurs and getting the seasons to join

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Speaker 2: and support them.

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Speaker 1: And over the years it.

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Speaker 2: Grew into funds and more programs to help the entrepreneurs grow.

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Speaker 5: I need some examples.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in this vast history of three hundred thousand people,

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Speaker 3: three hundred steff, I don't know how many entrepreneurs can

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Speaker 3: you what's a few examples?

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Speaker 5: A projects that you've.

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Speaker 1: One example we in front.

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Speaker 2: You have a project that is really big now, it

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Speaker 2: was really small at that time called back market back

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Speaker 2: market to make you buy your old phones instead of

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Speaker 2: the new ones.

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Speaker 5: So instead of black market, it's back market helps me.

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Speaker 2: Use, we use it and so it's really interesting and

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Speaker 2: circular communions. So the challenge they give when they launches,

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Speaker 2: which kind of event could be organized to make back

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Speaker 2: market known?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the.

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Speaker 2: Volunteers came together and the idea was to organize the

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Speaker 2: other keynote. So the same day Apple said the keynote

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Speaker 2: about the new iPhone, back market was organizing the other.

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Speaker 1: Automatic old iPhones.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, volenteers came up with the ideas and helped set

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Speaker 2: this up and now it's one of the biggest startups

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Speaker 2: in France.

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Speaker 1: So it's one example.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I can just testify taking the metro around

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Speaker 3: all week as the pairs have seen. I heard a

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Speaker 3: back market just a few months ago due to a

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Speaker 3: company we have a relationship with that's based in the US.

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Speaker 3: But seeing the billboards, oh my god, back market is

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Speaker 3: huge now, it's huge, and you will literally helped launch.

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Speaker 1: It at the beginning. So there's many stories like that.

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Speaker 2: A story I love is during the COVID time, there

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Speaker 2: was like this startup that we helped support, which is

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Speaker 2: to connect the elderly together so they don't fill alone

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Speaker 2: with their family. So what we set up was through

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Speaker 2: this program of self volunteering. We had like four thousand

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Speaker 2: people in three weeks who went on a platform to

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Speaker 2: call a Rondom elder and then have weekly conversations with

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Speaker 2: them during the top of the COVID time. And the

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Speaker 2: way the volunteers built the trust with the retirement house

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Speaker 2: to get the numbers was by the first thing we

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Speaker 2: told them it is first to bring.

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Speaker 1: Them a cake to the director. And so you had

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Speaker 1: volunteers showing up bringing cake.

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Speaker 2: And then once the directors said okay, I'm okay to

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Speaker 2: give the numbers so you can call. Then it went

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Speaker 2: into a listing and people were picking up the phone

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Speaker 2: and calling. This example of program taken by the French

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Speaker 2: government on its public volunteering platform and so then it

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Speaker 2: becomes officially something you could do.

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Speaker 3: During COVID, did the government acknowledge the origin of this idea?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like I mean, they bring us into groups and

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Speaker 2: right now this program that's called Reactions two weeks program

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Speaker 2: so you can take action to have the elderly and

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Speaker 2: is working with the state to become a public policy. Wow,

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Speaker 2: to make it that the way the youth engagement program

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Speaker 2: of the state around three hundred thousand young French people

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Speaker 2: per year, works the same way that our program. And

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Speaker 2: so it's very interesting after two years of just an

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Speaker 2: id during COVID and then it helps become a public policy.

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Speaker 3: And how much did you spend on lobbying dollars with

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Speaker 3: your government to get them?

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Speaker 1: We didn't. Basically that's how we were doing in the US.

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Speaker 5: Had to give a lot of campaign.

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Speaker 2: The thing they need is that they had too much

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Speaker 2: demand on their platform and not enough offers and in.

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Speaker 3: This case, because it's such a clear case with COVID

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Speaker 3: isolated older people, young people who want to help. Can

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Speaker 3: you lay out a bit of the pieces of how

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Speaker 3: that came together. Was there an initial volunteer organization that

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Speaker 3: had relationships with elderly holmes? Was there a young person

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Speaker 3: who missed their grandparents? Like, what's the seed of that solution?

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Speaker 2: At the beginning of COVID, no one knew what was

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Speaker 2: going to happen. I remember that, and at that time

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Speaker 2: I was studying in a program in New York at

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Speaker 2: Columbia University with Yobama Foundation. And so we had a

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Speaker 2: briefing from the team that was working with President Obama

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Speaker 2: on preparing pandemics. Oh wow, so the organized the day

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Speaker 2: the whole thing started, Yeah, we do this briefing. Destroyed

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Speaker 2: the briefing and I told them makes sense. Team, Hey guys,

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Speaker 2: this thing is like real and it's going to be

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Speaker 2: a lot of mess for the most vulnerable people. And

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Speaker 2: so then we saw that it was the elders, the

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Speaker 2: young people because they couldn't go to studies, the people

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Speaker 2: that already don't have house or how do they access

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Speaker 2: to hygiene product? And so we had six programs at

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Speaker 2: the front lines, and we just said, okay, let's do

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Speaker 2: a digital program where people self organized and groups are fifteen.

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Speaker 2: And for each program, we ask our experts, the social

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Speaker 2: entrepreneurs who've been working ten years with the organized, ten

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Speaker 2: years with the elderly, what is the.

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Speaker 1: Actions people should do. We build those two kits.

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Speaker 2: And we launched it with like I think the first

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Speaker 2: week was one hundred and fifty people and each group

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Speaker 2: of fifteen you had one organizer whose goal is to

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Speaker 2: get people excited. And the magic of the thing is

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Speaker 2: that each group then created three people to become the

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Speaker 2: team leader. So you have one group and the next

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Speaker 2: week would lead to three groups. And this is how

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Speaker 2: we grew the system and it was really exciting. But

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Speaker 2: it's also amazing to see the power of digital tools

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Speaker 2: because it was all running on WhatsApp and emails.

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Speaker 1: When you plug it with community organizing.

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Speaker 2: But this method you can use the same for activism,

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Speaker 2: for elections, even something to get a virus.

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Speaker 3: To spread, a different type of virus as opposed to

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Speaker 3: the COVID virus that's spreading. Because what you have co

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Speaker 3: created with the community isn't a top down playbook. You

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Speaker 3: kind of set the stage, and it's emerged groups of

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Speaker 3: fifteen people scaling, self replicating, self teaching like a positive virus.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious what you've been learning about where people go

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Speaker 3: from here. If you've unleashed these tools of collaboration and

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Speaker 3: problem solving and growth, what have they seeded That it's

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Speaker 3: kind of a derivative of some of this type of organizing.

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Speaker 2: So what's happening now is we see the first model

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Speaker 2: that we had, which was based on people meeting in

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Speaker 2: real life and doing workshops together, and this model which

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Speaker 2: was really like digital since COVID is starting to go away,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of a merge of both. So we see

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Speaker 2: the people who did the programming that it is getting

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Speaker 2: together and say hey, let's meet in real life and

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Speaker 2: then they to think together what they could do next.

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Speaker 2: So it's really interesting because then it spins kind of

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Speaker 2: out of makes sense. But the good part of it

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Speaker 2: is from the statistic we had is like two thirds

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Speaker 2: of the people who did this program never volunteered before.

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Speaker 2: So the thing it creates my hope for democracy is

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Speaker 2: just it makes people realize that they can do more

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Speaker 2: than just vote, and that they can solve the problems.

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Speaker 2: The tension we're seeing right now is that the news

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Speaker 2: you get on climate for example, or the social and

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Speaker 2: romantic issues are becoming really urgent, and sometimes they feel

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Speaker 2: the connection on the small action they can do to

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Speaker 2: help someone. And then the big problem that comes, especially

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Speaker 2: from the youth participant of the program, we see that

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Speaker 2: there's a will to become more, even more than just volunteering,

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Speaker 2: like really become an activist to push for more radical

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Speaker 2: change faster. And what we're trying to build that makes

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Speaker 2: sense is to say, okay, we help start social entrepreneurship,

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Speaker 2: especially in France, why don't we create accelerator an incubator

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Speaker 2: for activists because this is a trend. We see that

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Speaker 2: people realize they need change of the systems faster, and

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Speaker 2: so the volunteer impact is kind of you start as

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Speaker 2: a two years after actively Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that wasn't the explicit explicitly, but that's some

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Speaker 3: of what emerges when you give people these kind of tools.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the more you get you make friends, and the

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Speaker 2: more you have funding this thing, the more you want

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Speaker 2: to continue explore, learn and then you learn more about

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Speaker 2: the problem and you see what can I do more? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it becomes kind of a natural path.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I've experienced, and I think

444
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 3: a lot of people who will hear this have, is

445
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 3: a sense of isolation in the face of great challenges.

446
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 5: We feel alone.

447
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 3: We have our phones, which are supposed to connect us,

448
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 3: but they kind of make us feel smaller. And in

449
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 3: the US, especially, our connections to each other are weak.

450
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 3: You know, we don't have churches as much anymore, we

451
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 3: don't live with extended family anymore, we don't have the

452
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 3: clubs we used to have in terms of just the

453
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 3: power of being with other people, maybe who were even

454
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 3: different from us. What have you learned about the power

455
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 3: of gathering or associating through volunteers and through these small

456
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 3: groups of fifteen in terms of a culture of civic

457
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 3: engagement that goes beyond.

458
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: So the thing is when it was the workshops, so

459
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: basically people coming to help a social entrepreneur on his

460
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: project and ID the people we were having were mostly

461
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: like people who did the higher degree studies. So there

462
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 2: were students so young, professional and they came because they

463
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 2: were applying what they were learning at school or universities.

464
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 2: When we did the COVID programs, and then the first

465
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: call to action wasn't to come to a workshop for

466
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 2: three hours, but it was to call and elderly and

467
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: have a discussion, which is something everyone can do. This

468
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: was really great because the demographics of people participating were

469
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: really looking like the French society in all age, all background.

470
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: And this was really amazing because you could see different

471
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: and once now how they get together in real life.

472
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: I think it's going to make something powerful because they're

473
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: going to define actions of things that look more like

474
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: the French society than what it was before COVID and

475
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: this is bringing different people who didn't know each other before.

476
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 3: What you've described so far and built sounds great. It's

477
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: like hundreds of thousands of people reconnecting with their society,

478
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: with each other, solving problems, not just waiting for our

479
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 3: government or some big business to come and fix it

480
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: for them. What is the hardest part of pulling this off?

481
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 3: What are the things that we're not hearing yet in

482
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 3: terms of the challenges, so.

483
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: Like building the organization, finding the financing the business, all

484
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 2: the things people don't see. Yeah, it was really tricky,

485
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 2: especially that it started as an organic movement makes sense.

486
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 2: We have those volunteers running these workshops, everywhere, and then

487
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: we build the organization to run after them. Oh there's

488
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: a lot of people speaking Spanish. Oh, we need the

489
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: support team to do the training. Oh let's okay, well

490
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: in Mexico. Okay, okay, firstvolunteer, O kid drink in the team.

491
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: Now build these whole thing. And so the building the

492
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 2: organization was a bit tricky, but it's like any entrepreneurial journey.

493
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 2: The thing that's really frustrating now is that Mike Sen

494
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 2: has all these volunteers, these employees for the social entrepreneurs.

495
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: We even have a fun like we have one hundred.

496
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: Million investments and investment that we can invest, and it

497
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 2: just feels like, Okay, this is great and we're happy

498
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 2: in the team, but like the problems seems so much

499
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: urgent and huge that when I started that, I'm like,

500
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: what can we do now to accelerate because it's not

501
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: just by continuing what we did during ten years then

502
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: we would make a bigger dent in the issues we're

503
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: trying to solve as an organization. And so this whole

504
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: questioning is what's happening in the team now, and we're

505
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: trying to see what's next should be done so that

506
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: we can make a bigger dent in the problems that

507
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: are becoming more urgent.

508
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: So what type of person ends up doing what you're doing?

509
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: Why does this move you so much? And the idea

510
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 3: of makes sense, the idea of empowering people to collectively

511
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: work to solve their problems, where.

512
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: Do you think that comes from.

513
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: I grew up in Tahili, is really a small island

514
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and my grandfather

515
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: was from the French Navy and he arrived there with

516
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: a boat and he met my grandmother, who's Taritian from Tehili.

517
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: He started a soccer club and had a lot of friends,

518
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: and so then he went into politics and he was

519
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: the first president of the local assembly because they even

520
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: if part of the French Republic, we have our own government.

521
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: And the first law that he passed was the social

522
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: security so people to have free health.

523
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: Care and they were so fresh. Free health care.

524
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: And free with not free, but retirement, yeah, for everyone.

525
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: And this is what was kind of the biggest thing

526
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: you could do for advancement in Tahili. And so I

527
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: grew up in this family people super motivated and engaged,

528
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: and when I needed to study I was like, Okay,

529
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: where do I feel is going to have the biggest impact,

530
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: And my guess was the economy is running the world,

531
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: and so finding ways to trick the economy and making

532
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: run to solve problem and not just make more money

533
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: is why I.

534
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: Choose business school.

535
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: And also the thing when you talk about global challenge,

536
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,959
Speaker 2: for example, like climate change, super scary when you come

537
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,479
Speaker 2: from a small island and the main narrative you hear

538
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: is like, this are the first places that are going

539
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 2: to disappear, And so I really engage on this topic

540
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: because you can see the.

541
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 1: Effect right now on the corals.

542
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: But the problem is that you come from tails so

543
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: small hasn't if you can't do much about the problem

544
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: of climate change from Tahili is not because one hundred

545
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: thousand people take their bikes that things will be sold.

546
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: And so then you realize, okay, like seventy percent carbon

547
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: emissions come from big cities, so people acting in New York,

548
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: in Paris, in Manila, it has more impact to save

549
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: my island. And so this is kind of why I

550
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: was selling like connecting the DUTs and local communities. I

551
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: think it's what needed for this kind of challenge and

552
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: in a really selfish way.

553
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: I'm kind of trying to save your home.

554
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 3: It all comes back to self preservation, but through collective

555
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: action after the break the wild and clever tactics, Christian

556
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: and thousands of others are using to diffuse a carbon bomb.

557
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: So you've made this connection many times to climate change

558
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: as the accelerating type of global crisis and the idea

559
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 3: that you can't solve.

560
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: It just from where you are.

561
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 3: You have to look to other places to kind of

562
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 3: affect where you are, which brings us to this pipeline

563
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 3: and this East African crude oil pipeline ecop that you

564
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: are very much against. Can you give some context, more

565
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: content for the pipeline and the connection of this kind

566
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: of self organizing volunteer effort to try.

567
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: To start if we do the same as what we

568
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: did during COVID, you know, we look at what science

569
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: says we need to do and we need to help.

570
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: It's the same with the climate.

571
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: And one of the first recommendation of the scientists of

572
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: the International INADI Agency is really clear.

573
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: They say, if we want to keep.

574
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: The Paris Agreement alive, so not more than one point

575
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: five degree global warming, the first thing to do is

576
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: no new oil and gas infrastructure. It doesn't mean no

577
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: oil from tomorrow. It means we don't need to build

578
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 2: new ones because it will make global warming worth So

579
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: I just was thinking, what can I do to participate

580
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: with my capacities to this priority that the scientists said.

581
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: And so in the climate activist movement, what happens that

582
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: if you're in the UK, you focus on.

583
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: The UK Oil Company, so it's BP.

584
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: If you're in France, this company is called Total And

585
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: so I looked at what is the thing we could

586
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: do from friends to make sure there's no new il

587
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: And so this company is building one new island gas project.

588
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: It's going to be the longest heated crude oil pipeline.

589
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: It has to be heated at fifty degrees.

590
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 3: The longest heated crude oil pipeline in the world in

591
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 3: the world.

592
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: And let's go from Uganda to Tanzan Yak And so

593
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: the first thing we did was to ask the local

594
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: activists there, like what do they think about the project?

595
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 3: And so I love, I'm just going to pause you

596
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 3: right there because a lot of us don't do that

597
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 3: step right. So you have had a initially kind of

598
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: analytical approach right. I read the IPCC report, the International

599
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: Energy Agency that they said this is important. I looked

600
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 3: at the energy companies that were kind of within my reach.

601
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: I'm friends, it's in Hotel Boom Boom. Then I checked

602
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: with the.

603
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 5: Local activists to see what they want.

604
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: I just I need to really affirm that pause, because

605
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: a lot of people skip that step and just.

606
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: Say we got to stop this, We've got to do that,

607
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: and don't check in. So what happened when you checked it?

608
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: So because the thing is we don't know the local

609
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: realities and so maybe they will say, oh, we really

610
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: need that energy or we really need these things. And

611
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: then what you realize is that there was two court

612
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: case from local NGOs and people affected by the pipeline

613
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: who are taking total to court in France to say

614
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: that this project don't happen. And the biggest thing that

615
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: happened is that there's one hundred thousand people being displaced.

616
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: And so there was a lot of mobilization in Uganda,

617
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: not from what we taught was the angle of climate,

618
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: but from the younger of human rights, like for the

619
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: last seven years, they can't use their land because it's

620
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: going to be on the way of the pipeline and

621
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 2: it's mostly farmers. So basically there's a huge amount of

622
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: farmers were like, we will, can't use our land. You're

623
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: not compensating us. And so what we did when we

624
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: started the campaign in France was the say, okay, we

625
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: need to bring voices from Uganda to come and tell

626
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: to the French people that we're so proud of saying

627
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: we invented the human rights and all these things, to

628
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: just say what the French company is doing there, and

629
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: so that it's known and people realize that this is

630
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: a mess not just for the climate, but also for

631
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: the lives of the people.

632
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: So listening to the activists on the ground, listen to

633
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: their story, find the connection to the story the people

634
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 3: you're trying to influence.

635
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 5: So French people take credit.

636
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: For inventing human rights.

637
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 3: You know, the Declaration of the Rights of Men is

638
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: very proud part of French history. So if you really

639
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: believe that, then you're going to be really sensitive to

640
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 3: these stories of these people.

641
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they came to tell the story.

642
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: And once you spend two weeks with them and you know,

643
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: like hearing their stories and everything, you're like, it's kind

644
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: of the motivation to do the fight and what we

645
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: need to do. And it's very human because climate is

646
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: something really like help for people to.

647
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 3: Be very abstract, very analytical, numbers based.

648
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: And also it was really important for us that the

649
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: start of the campaign was the activist fighting for years

650
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 2: on the field there, promoting their voice first so that

651
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: they're more known and more protected because we don't know

652
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: what could happen in Uganda. And the second thing is

653
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: to tell this oil company that the TOTAL keeps saying

654
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: but everyone in Uganda wants it to should know there's

655
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: some people who.

656
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: Don't want it's just that they're being repressed.

657
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: And so this was the start, and when you look back,

658
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: I think it was the best angle because it's really

659
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: the thing where Total is pushing to say, like, but

660
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: it's like people from the North who don't want Africa

661
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: to give love.

662
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: So they're basically saying you're racist, yeah, for stopping Africans

663
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 3: from having progress economically and moving forward. Okay, we're gonna

664
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 3: hit pause here. You don't have to hit pause. I'm

665
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 3: hitting pause on my own conversation for a quick tactum day.

666
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 3: Check what Christians saying here about Total needs a little

667
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: bit more context. We couldn't track down any instances of

668
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: total Energy saying these exact statements. However, they did recently

669
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 3: post something to their website responding to to a quote

670
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 3: unquote set of misconceptions about ECOP and another project. They

671
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 3: said the following, which I will deliver in a cartoonishly

672
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 3: French accent, because I find their behavior to be cartoonish.

673
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 3: We could ask ourselves whether the desire to prevent countries

674
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: like Uganda from exploiting their natural resources is not itself

675
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: inspired by a vision that is neo colonialist or selfish.

676
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 4: To say the.

677
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: Least, what local Ugandans want to see is a developed

678
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 3: constraint with infrastructure kitling to people's most basic needs. Critics,

679
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 3: you're the colonialist.

680
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 4: That's good.

681
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: I hope they're paying these people. Well, no, they don't

682
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: say Northerners don't want to see Africa developed, but we

683
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 3: can agree it's implied given their response seems to be

684
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 3: responding to non Ugandan detractors of the project. And yes,

685
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 3: in that statement, Hotel does an outright say that everyone

686
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: in Uganda wants e COP to be built.

687
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 4: But by saying that quote.

688
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: What local Ugandans want to see is a developed country

689
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: with infrastructure catering to people's most basic needs. In a

690
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 3: company posts that's specifically responding to misconceptions about this project.

691
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: I think we can infer that their meaning that locals

692
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 3: want e coop, whereas non locals may not. But next

693
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 3: to total, the Udan government has been much more direct.

694
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 3: After the EU called for e cop to be halted

695
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 3: due to human rights abuses and climate concerns, President Yuwaerri

696
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: Musevani responded saying they are insufferable, so shallows, so egocentric,

697
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: so wrong. I don't know if that's his accent, but

698
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: that was certain his energy. Now this may seem extra

699
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: to fact check, given how much is implied here, but

700
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 3: when you're fighting multi billion dollar companies with padded marketing

701
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 3: and legal teams, getting specific with our critiques is a necessity,

702
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 3: just part of the job.

703
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 4: And now back to my conversation with Christian.

704
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: It's really like a big fight and to win the

705
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: narratives where most activists from Uganda, what they tell you

706
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: is that of course they want development, but it doesn't

707
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: need to be a dirty development because if there's a leak,

708
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: it's going to be the fisherman from the Lake Victoria

709
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: who won't be able to fish anymore. So of course

710
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: yes to investment and things like that, but needs to

711
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: be renewable different kinds of projects and not old oil pipeline,

712
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: especially in a moment we're not sure oil is going

713
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: to continue in the long term being a good as

714
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: set to have. So if a country develop itself on

715
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: an asset that's going to be not good in twenty years,

716
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 2: then you're screwed. And when you look in Africa, they

717
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: didn't lead the landfall, you know, they directly went to mobilis,

718
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: so while not doing the same and the energy I.

719
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 5: Got an idea for the campaign then totally screwed.

720
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 1: So that was a free one.

721
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 3: You got workshop alat in the brainstorms the team less

722
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 3: to considered.

723
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been really an interesting fight.

724
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 3: And so as you have engaged further in this fight

725
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: to stop this pipeline, the size of the problem feels

726
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 3: very large. How have you gone about further breaking it

727
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: down into pieces that groups of volunteers can feel like

728
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: it's approachable For.

729
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: The first thing to know is that there's what we

730
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: call carbon bombs carbon box So it's new oil and

731
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: gas projects that is creating a lot of carbon emission

732
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: this pipeline. For example, in Uganda alone, it's seven times

733
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: the emissions of Uganda. So these projects create a lot

734
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 2: of you can be millions taking your bike. If these

735
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: things happen, it doesn't change anything. And so it's really

736
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: the urgency in the climate movements. And so the goal

737
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: is to make sure that everything we do on this

738
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: pipeline can be replicable, because there needs to be activists

739
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: and campaigns like that happening all around the world against all

740
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 2: these oil companies. And so the key thing, the key

741
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: pressure point on all these carbon bombs is always the

742
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: same is the finance. And so where there's a lot

743
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,479
Speaker 2: of citizen power that can be used is to put

744
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 2: pressure on the banks so that they don't fund. But

745
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: even better than the banks is the insurance, because they

746
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: should put pressure on the insurance. Then the bank don't

747
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: want to lend to a project that's not insures and

748
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: so then you break it down, Okay, what can citizen

749
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: do to put pressure on an insurance and so then

750
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: you need to track which insurance might ensure the pipeline.

751
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: And so for example, there was one in Germany that

752
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: was called Munikroe and then we contacted the local the

753
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: most well known activists in Germany, and we.

754
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: Say, hey, again checking the people on the ground, what

755
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: can we do to get them out of this project?

756
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: And then she said, and in Germany we're really lucky

757
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: because she's really powerful. When she tweets, there's like thousands

758
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: of people going in the street. So she just did

759
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: tweet to the CEO. The next day the guy are

760
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 2: okay out. And so this is how many insurance that

761
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: like all the German ones, really easy, you just need

762
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: Louisan a power to tweet. In other places more complicated.

763
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 2: And so right now a total is going to try

764
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: to find an insuran in the marketplace for insurance, which

765
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: is in Lloyds everyone and so right now and so

766
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: all the dirtiest projects on the planet, they all come

767
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: to Loyds at some point.

768
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: So the Layds is meant to delude the risk.

769
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 2: So instead of saying I ensure the whole project, is

770
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 2: I ensure two percent of it and someone else and.

771
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 5: Show the other those single person the whole risk.

772
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: And so then it's becomes really tricky.

773
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: And so what we created is the WhatsApp group with

774
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 2: sixty volunteers and every day at lunch. You have two

775
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 2: people going with posters stop ping up and the flyers,

776
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 2: and their job is to recruit within the insurance marketplace

777
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 2: who knows which actor are my finance, et cetera, and

778
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: also which one is against. So they give their emails

779
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: and then we basically recruit employees within the insurance marketplace

780
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: to give us information. And then went these guys, they

781
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 2: start on the Wetstele group and then we have hundreds

782
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: of people sending emails directing mass this field, don't do that.

783
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: And then every three weeks we have a big happening

784
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: happening in front of the Lloyd's marketplace. So the last

785
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: one was organized by Models Razers. They had one hundred

786
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: and fifty Dan Cells who came and did the show

787
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: of I forgot her name, chim Chimney Mary Hippop Pin's okay,

788
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: and so they did because the story of bankers being sad.

789
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: Because so we had one hundred and fifty bankers with

790
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: a fake Mary pop to the CEO of Floyd's Insure

791
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: insure future and insure those projects.

792
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: So you have these multi campaigns like that.

793
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: It's digital WhatsApp groups and these techniques will hold Lloyd's

794
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 2: dropped from Adny coal mine a big coal mine project,

795
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 2: so we know it works. You just have to find

796
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 2: the right pressure point and had this parties to get

797
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: the information. So actually the best job to do is

798
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 2: to go every day, make friends, have lunch with them,

799
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: and get them infation.

800
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: And then it's easy to organize.

801
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 5: Like an intelligence operation.

802
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: And it's all run by people who are nineteen to

803
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: twenty one. And there's an Instagram account where they post

804
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 2: every day, Hey, well every day in front of Lloyd.

805
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is really pissing them up.

806
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 2: Like the project be cous one point five billion, it's

807
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: around like ten billion because of all these tactiques to

808
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 2: not find insurance and things like that.

809
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 5: So I'm hearing at least two things.

810
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: One is consistency and just like every day at lunch,

811
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: two people go and do this thing, so there's a

812
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: rhythm to it. I'm also hearing play fun joy, you're

813
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 3: hiring dancers. Young people are getting excited. A lot of

814
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,479
Speaker 3: the image that we are taught about what it means

815
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: to engage civically is it's boring, it's sad, it's cold,

816
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: and maybe you call your member of Parliament or your

817
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 3: member of congress and hope they listen to you until

818
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 3: the next day. This sounds much more active and much

819
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: more fun. Is that by design?

820
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: It's it's because from the story of makes sense. We

821
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: know that if people volunteer they're not paid, they need.

822
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: To have fun.

823
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: Otherwise they don't have fun, they'll not keep going and

824
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 2: keep doing. For example, at every end of the week

825
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: they will meet all together in a pub it's in.

826
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: London, and then they make friends.

827
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: And at the same time it's really fun to be

828
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 2: like twenty years old and to scare all these CEUs

829
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: and to cause them billions, and when you're just with

830
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: one person it seems like they are giants from outside. Yeah,

831
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: but then they have there can be so weak. So

832
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 2: it's also you play on fun and also this rebellios.

833
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 2: This really sad part is even if people have fun

834
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: and there's all these campaign there are still some real

835
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: things happening, like activists in Uganda. When you're not in

836
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: England or in Friends it's a bit different the political

837
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: regimes there and there they're being put in jail and

838
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: things like that. So I think it's this mix of

839
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,479
Speaker 2: being real bad the issue, but at the same time

840
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: knowing which tactics to engage more people than can work,

841
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 2: just so that it doesn't become just a fun thing

842
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,919
Speaker 2: that you then detach from the reality that's really not fun.

843
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 3: And I think that's essential because things can get too

844
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 3: performative and feel, like you said, disconnected. I also there's

845
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 3: something you were describing, even in terms of the digital

846
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 3: activism which is often rightly criticized as clicktivism, and there's

847
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 3: a disconnect from real outcomes and real impact because it's

848
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: so easy to like and share and retweet, especially if

849
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 3: that's not part of a larger strategy, it doesn't matter.

850
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 3: How are you ensuring that the digital actions are meaningful

851
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: and really connect on the ground.

852
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 2: So on this specific campaign for the pipeline, it's first

853
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: there's a coalition of angels all around the world of

854
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: putting it and they build and.

855
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: Decide the pressure points.

856
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: So there's an engine that specialized in analyzing the financial

857
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: actor of the banks and the insurance and they say

858
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: what is the thing that can help the most and

859
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 2: actually sending an email to these people in the insurance.

860
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 2: They're not used to receive emails from everyday citizen. Also,

861
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: the novelty of the action, so this activism is not

862
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: just like you're expressing something like you write to your

863
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: congressman or big petition, they just change that. Or yeah,

864
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 2: you need just five people sending an email to that

865
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: guy who never received emails from any citizen and stuff

866
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: and say hey, i'm watching you.

867
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: What you're looking at me?

868
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: You're looking at me, and they're.

869
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: Like wow, for them, it's new. They're not politicians.

870
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 2: So this is how you can design the right strategy

871
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: of digital activism, and it's finding where it can be

872
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: the most useful. And often it's just a tool to

873
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: help the engel's campaigning. For example, right now there's like

874
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 2: people being arrested in Uganda because they protested against ecop

875
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: and so the main things to do is we put

876
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: pressure on the French ambassador in Uganda, so he condemned

877
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 2: and as that there is.

878
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: All of this because of a French company.

879
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 2: Of course, there's angels who know really well the ambassadors

880
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: and they know really well the foreign affairs of friends,

881
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 2: and so they lobby, they go talk to them. But

882
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: if at the same time there's one hundred of citizens

883
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: sending them email, it gives more power to this nonprofit

884
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: when they nego shape. So it's just about launching this

885
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:07,959
Speaker 2: at the right time.

886
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 5: It reminds me of a puffer fish.

887
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 3: You know, you're appearing bigger than you really are, and

888
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 3: you show up with allies and you're like, we have

889
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 3: a massive army and it's like five kids email.

890
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: But the cool figure is that then you have at

891
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 2: the same time the John elliet is to talk about

892
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: it and then you can make it a think. But

893
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 2: it's also because at the end of the day, it's

894
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 2: not okay that in the country that say, the country

895
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: of human rights that because of a French company, human

896
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: rights are not respected. So it's still tied to something

897
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 2: really deep in the people which are mobilizing.

898
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

899
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not just a charitable do good it's holding

900
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 3: people to their own standard and reminding them who they

901
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 3: say they are and giving them a chance to be

902
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: who they say they are, which I think is also

903
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: a pretty deeply empathetic approach to persuasion, activism and even

904
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 3: pressure points.

905
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 5: There's some love in that pain. Yeah, you've recently launched

906
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 5: an app. Can you describe this app and how people

907
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 5: might get involved in it?

908
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

909
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: The complicated part about this oil and gas pipeline is.

910
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 3: That there's a huge number all these carbon bombs, and.

911
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: So every time what we realize is that, for example,

912
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 2: you need five thousand people to send a message to

913
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: a bank that their clients off. fIF five thousand people

914
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 2: send them an email saying, hey, guys, I really don't

915
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: want you to use my money to finance this kind

916
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: of project.

917
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: This string an alert in the bank. It's a reputational risk.

918
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 2: So Regroup is just a platform where people can join

919
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: the campaign and send those emails when it's the right

920
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: time to do. But then we know these people and

921
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: if there's another campaign and they can directly help on

922
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: the other campaign. So do you fast track how people

923
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: act together ising digital tools? My hope is that people

924
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: will start by sending an email to the censure and

925
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: then they will end up being the people in front

926
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: of Lloyd's in London every day at lunch being more active.

927
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 5: Right, So it's like going to the gym.

928
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: You start with a little exercise, at you're running the

929
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 3: whole circuit because you've gotten stronger.

930
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 5: We like to leave our.

931
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 3: Listeners and our audience, our community with things they can

932
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 3: do in your experience through this campaign. Through the decade

933
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 3: of makes sense, how have you grown to interpret what

934
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 3: it would mean to citizen as a set of actions

935
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: or as a verb.

936
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 5: What does that look like to you?

937
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: To me?

938
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 2: One thing I learned I was during this one year

939
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: in New York at this fancy university at Columbia and

940
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 2: this Obama program. We were eight and there was one

941
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: girl who was with me the also in the co op.

942
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 2: Her name was way Way new when she's an activist

943
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 2: from me and Mack, and she spent her whole teenage

944
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: year of seven years in jail because her dad was

945
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: in the party from Ansuki, and so the drink put

946
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: her dad in jail somewhere, put the whole family in

947
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: the jail somewhere else. And I really realized that before

948
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: I was massage people who were volunteering and stuff like that.

949
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: But one of the exercise what to do during the

950
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: program was to tell the other person's story to the others,

951
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: but talking at the first like and so you hold

952
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: that story like a baby. And I had to tell

953
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: the story of way Away, which was all about the pain,

954
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 2: the suffering in the jail and being far from her

955
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 2: dad and at the same time going out after and

956
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: you think the junta is out, but then her community

957
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 2: is the rowing gas so there was still persecuted after

958
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 2: and it's just hearing her story and having to say

959
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 2: it to completely transform me. And this developed bigger side

960
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: of empathy. And for me, this is the thing of

961
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: to citizens to when you hear someone's story, to really

962
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: feel it and then you can't take it away from you.

963
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: The story of the activists in Uganda, the story of Wayway.

964
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: Now like I would do whatever.

965
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 2: I can whenever, just to do something because their story

966
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 2: is in me now and so I think this is

967
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: the thing that really changed me. And how to citizen,

968
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 2: I would say, just to let all those stories of

969
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 2: injustice that happen, of things that need to change to

970
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 2: the world, not just mentally, but let them leave in you.

971
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: At the risk of sounding very much like someone who

972
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 3: enjoys puns, that makes sense. So thank you Mesoku for

973
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 3: giving us a window into how we can make more sense,

974
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 3: have more fun, and have more power when we do

975
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 3: it together.

976
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: Thank you.

977
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 4: Four Seasons.

978
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 3: In As we are with this show, I hope you

979
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 3: are familiar with our refrain about how civic engagement and

980
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 3: citizen ing has got to be more than just voting.

981
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: Voting is necessary, but it is not sufficient, especially because

982
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 3: many folks can't vote by law. But we can all

983
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 3: participate in shaping our communities and in solving our own problems.

984
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 3: Our first pillar of how the citizen is literally show

985
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 3: up and participate. But many of us we're out of practice.

986
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 3: We need a way in, and it helps if that

987
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 3: way in is also fun. What excites me most about

988
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: Christian is that he's helped create a gateway drug to

989
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 3: Citizening makes sense, helps people build and practice that collective

990
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 3: problem solving through volunteerism, which sometimes slides into activism. It's

991
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 3: these practices that help reinforce a culture of small d democracy.

992
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 4: A culture is so.

993
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 3: Crucial to upholding a democratic system of self governance. Christian

994
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 3: is a recruiter for helping us all practice democracy, helping

995
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 3: us all citizen by showing up, and he successfully recruited

996
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 3: me for real, Like I get excited about all of

997
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 3: our guests, but I don't necessarily.

998
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 4: Always go all in on the thing they just built.

999
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 4: I tried the beta version of the regroup.

1000
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 3: App he mentioned, and I did the stop e cop

1001
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 3: daily actions for a while.

1002
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 4: And it's all.

1003
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 3: In French, because yes, your boy also speaks French. But

1004
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 3: It also speaks to how addictive and cool and fun

1005
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 3: the platform was that the French I didn't speak.

1006
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 4: I was looking up to make sure I knew what

1007
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 4: I was doing.

1008
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 3: Now, look, you can learn more about makes Sense over

1009
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 3: at makessense dot org. It doesn't really operate fully in

1010
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 3: the US, but there's still a lot to be learned

1011
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: from it and maybe you'll be someone who starts a

1012
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 3: US chapter if you're here, check out the actions to

1013
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 3: stop e cop on Instagram stop eacop where there's actions

1014
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 3: you can take in the US, because unfortunately Black Rock,

1015
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 3: which is based right here in our own New York State,

1016
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 3: is an investor in Total Energies, which is a major

1017
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 3: shareholder in ECOP, which we're trying to stop. And if

1018
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 3: you want to get in on these daily actions and

1019
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 3: notifications like me which got me so excited, you can

1020
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 3: help stop this pipeline with the regroup app it's r

1021
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 3: e g roop and find it in your nearest app store.

1022
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 3: And speaking of daily actions, in the show notes, we

1023
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 3: always have actions you can take after listening to each episode.

1024
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 3: We give you options to go inwards and feel into

1025
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 3: the material, to become more knowledgeable or to get involved

1026
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 3: with others to make an impact. So here's a juicy

1027
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 3: prompt for some internal reflection. How do you feel when

1028
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 3: you hear the words climate change, like you encounter a

1029
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 3: story on the topic, what's the dominant emotion? I want

1030
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 3: you to write this down, and then I want you

1031
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 3: to think about a different climate story that provokes the

1032
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 3: opposite or at least a very different emotional reaction, and

1033
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 3: spend more time in that one. So when I think

1034
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: of climate change, the emotions that come up are anger, despair, frustration.

1035
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 3: Now when I think about a story that shifts me

1036
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 3: out of that, I think about Christian I think about

1037
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 3: a lot of the stuff that we talked about in

1038
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,399
Speaker 3: this episode, and I feel a sense of awe, even

1039
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 3: a little happy, because I'm like, yo, these kids are

1040
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 3: getting so creative. And so for me, this exercise is

1041
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 3: going to be looking for more stories that prove that reaction.

1042
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 3: Are there other climate change stories that lead to a

1043
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 3: sense of awe or joy or excitement or hopefulness as

1044
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 3: opposed to the despair and the overwhelmedness that I felt before.

1045
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 3: The goal here is to be curious and open to

1046
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 3: your feelings, to be conscious of the emotional impact of

1047
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 3: the climate narratives you're ingesting and to consciously try to

1048
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 3: rebalance that. Now for more active actions, there's what we

1049
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 3: already mentioned with the stop ecop campaign, and on the

1050
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 3: other side of this coin, there's a chance to take

1051
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 3: some personal responsibility for our consumer culture. This culture is

1052
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 3: fueling more demand for oil, and we can counter that

1053
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 3: with a different kind of spending. There's this product called

1054
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 3: future Card. It's a payment card that rewards you for

1055
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: climate friendly purchases. Full disclosure. I'm an early investor and

1056
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 3: advisor because I think it's a powerful way to align

1057
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 3: incentives in our economy. Find them online at future dot green. Also,

1058
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 3: you may hear people say that it's not on us

1059
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 3: as individuals to stop climate change, and it isn't on us,

1060
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 3: at least not alone. But we do have power, and

1061
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 3: I don't want us to feel like because our governments

1062
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 3: aren't doing enough, there's nothing we can do. So it's

1063
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 3: a both proposition. We can lower our demand for fossil

1064
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 3: fuels while we also pressure policymakers in the oil industry

1065
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,399
Speaker 3: at large to change. No matter what you hear from

1066
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 3: any side, we truly need to do both to curb

1067
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 3: climate change. As always, we'd love to hear from you

1068
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: about your experience taking any of the actions. We may

1069
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 3: even ask you to share your story.

1070
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 4: With future listeners.

1071
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 3: The show notes got full details, so check them on

1072
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 3: your podcast app or visit howdocitizen dot com where we

1073
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 3: have transcripts, actions and more. How to Citizen with Baritunday

1074
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 3: is a production of iHeartRadio Podcasts.

1075
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 4: And row Home Productions.

1076
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are me Baritunde Thurston and Elizabeth Stewart.

1077
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 3: Our lead producer is Ali Graham, Our associate producer is

1078
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 3: Donya abdel Hamid. Alex Lewis is our managing producer, and

1079
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 3: John Myers is our executive editor and mixed engineer. Original

1080
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 3: music by Andrew Eapen with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions.

1081
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Joelle Smith from iHeartRadio and Leila Bina.

1082
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 3: Next time on How to Citizen, we're turning inward.

1083
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 6: It's a radical act of citizen ing to change our story,

1084
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 6: to change the narrative that we're living within and our

1085
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 6: relationship to ourselves and others in the world of like.

1086
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 6: I won't participate in that old way of being the

1087
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 6: authorizing me to you, humanizing the fighting the oppression. I

1088
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 6: won't I'm not going to do that to me. I'm

1089
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 6: not going to do that to you. I am going

1090
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 6: to stand for love. I will stand for love and

1091
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 6: in that being this change my world.

1092
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 3: In our final episode of the season, we talk with

1093
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 3: doctor Sam Raider, who helps us invest in a relationship

1094
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 3: with ourselves so we can build better relationships in our communities.

1095
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 4: Row Home Productions