1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: Y'all, they are back, and we are so fortunate. Renowned 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: criminologist doctor Catherine Ramslin and executive producer Tracy Olman are 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: here tonight and they've got big news that I am 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: so excited to share with all of y'all. Doctor Ramslin, welcome, welcome, 5 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: and will you tell us what's happening. 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: Well, it's great to be back here. The last time 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: we were here, we had Queen Henley with us as well. 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: We did a couple with him and that was based 9 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: on a book that we had written about his case. 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: And now we have the documentary version of it, a 11 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: two hour documentary on the ID Network on August seventeenth, 12 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: Sunday night, so nine to eleven East Time, and we're 13 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 2: hoping that people will really respond to that. There there's 14 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: more in it than was in the book because there 15 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: are people interviewed for the documentary that we're not part 16 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: of the book, So there is yet more really to 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: discover for anyone who has read it and those who haven't. 18 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: It's it's quite a case and it's disturbing, shocking, but 19 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: so relevant for today. 20 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: When I first learned about it, I got real excited. 21 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: I figured there would be some people that weren't in 22 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: the book. But anytime you can watch the person talk 23 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: and that includes you, doctor, you know, you get to me. 24 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: I get so much more from it, like I can 25 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, hear the way you you know, present it 26 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: and you know that kind of thing. You know what 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: I'm talking about it. 28 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: I do, and you know, obviously I'm interviewed on it. 29 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: But also we have some excerpts from the many hours 30 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: of taping that I did when I was talking to Wayne, 31 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: So you have footage from the nineteen seventies when all 32 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: this happened. You have Wayne talking on tape to me, 33 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: you have me talking about the case, you have other 34 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: experts talking about the case. So it really is a 35 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: different experience than reading the book, though it's the same story. 36 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: And Tracy, I mean, obviously you and doctor Ramslt are 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: not strangers to TV, and you have even been the 38 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: executive producer own a documentary, so this is familiar ground 39 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: for you, right right. 40 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 3: It was a pleasure to make this, and you know, 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: Catherine and I partnered on the book, but we also 42 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: worked very much hand in hand on the documentary because 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: she was so essential to giving context to this story. 44 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: Of course, you know the first thing I thought about was, man, 45 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: that might be a little difficult to take this masterpiece 46 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: that y'all have done and then put it in live form. 47 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: But then I thought, that's what doctor Ramslin does all 48 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: the time. 49 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: She takes it on. 50 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what you do all the time. You take a 51 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: textbook and you bring it to life. And you know, 52 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: Tracy the same for you. You take material, you take information, 53 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: and you put it in film form. So I am 54 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: so excited August seventeenth, I cannot wait. But I have 55 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: this question now, doctor Ramslin, were there components that you 56 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: found difficult to take a chapter and then flip it 57 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: into like a SoundBite. Was there anything that was a 58 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: challenge for you. 59 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: I think it was that I knew we're going to 60 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: take a really large story and condense it down to 61 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: two hours, so right off the bat, that's challenging. And 62 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: then of course you want to figure out what is 63 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: really essential to get across in this story and who 64 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: else are they going to be using to peace in. 65 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: So for me, it was simply telling the story as 66 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: I know it, you know, and reaching back to the 67 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies when the Dean Coral story happened, when these 68 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: murders happened, and to be able to talk about it 69 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: in the clinical way that I typically have. Wild viewers 70 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: are watching these really horrendous images, because you do get 71 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: footage of them digging up some of the bodies and 72 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: going into Dean Coral's house and seeing what the torture 73 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: implements that were in there. Seeing Wayne Henley as a 74 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: seventeen year old kid, the skinny guy talking to weeping 75 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: on the phone as he's talking to his mother. So 76 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 2: I think trying to get all that into a two 77 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: hour show was challenging, but it worked well. I think 78 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 2: I watched it a couple of times and I really 79 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: enjoy the sort of way it's been packaged. 80 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: Well, you know, Tracy, I'm Southern, so I love a 81 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: good story, and it's hard for me to condense anything. 82 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: I mean. 83 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: And somebody says, do you want ice cream? I don't 84 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: want to just say yes or no. I want to 85 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: tell them all the reason's. Like, you know, when I 86 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: was a child, I loved you know what I mean. 87 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: So when I think of this book, there is a 88 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: global picture that even when I was reading it, I thought, man, 89 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: there is so much more that they're going to be 90 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: able to connect from that book. It's not just Dean Coral. 91 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: It's not There's a lot more if you look at 92 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: crime in general, if you look at the way crime 93 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: is committed, and I'm one of those people. If you 94 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: take a theft or you take a murder, you can 95 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: dissect both and get to the same motive. 96 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, when we wrote the book together, 97 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: Katherine really took the lead. My strength was that I 98 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: had known Wayne for a few years before we connected Catherine, 99 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 3: and then I was very much into the sex trafficking 100 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: aspect of this story and uncovering that. So when we 101 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: finally had to sit down with a team that included 102 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 3: members of Dick Wolf Entertainment and ITV America, they hired 103 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: in a what's called a showrunner, somebody who was going 104 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: to give a look and feel to this story. His 105 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 3: name was Alexis Robi, and then they also had a producer, 106 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: Zoe Vach, and all of us did about five different 107 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 3: jobs as we went through what we could possibly do 108 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 3: with a small budget, a relatively small budget, and you know, 109 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 3: in the end, it was pretty incredible the amount of 110 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 3: archive that we had to show what literally happened. And 111 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: then we put in the recordings of Wayne. We had 112 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: a way of scrubbing through those by having them artificially 113 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: intelligenced and transcribed that way, and once we were looking 114 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: through those things, we were able to discern, Okay, this 115 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 3: is going to be relevant to what we're talking about here. 116 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 3: This is how we're going to show the grooming that 117 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: went on. And once that cut was put together, then 118 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: we had doctor Ramsland come back in and she was 119 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: basically on a set where we kind of old her 120 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: talking with Elma Wayne Henley. But there's a little bit 121 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 3: of fakery that goes on that way. And once you 122 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: have the story put together with all those different components, 123 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 3: it really brings you back into the early nineteen seventies 124 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: in Houston and in America, and it really gives the 125 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: context of we were a country that we were changed 126 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 3: by these murders, and we didn't really know why or 127 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: how until you know, we really you know, doctor Ramslin 128 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 3: and I dug into this, and I think now it's 129 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: much more obvious what those changes ended up being. 130 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's the global picture that interests me 131 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: so much, because it's not just murder like serial killer, absolutely, 132 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: but when you're talking about the grooming and the sex trafficking. 133 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: Those are elements that a lot of people do not 134 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: realize are so ingrained in some of these cases. 135 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: And that's partly the takeaway from the book and the 136 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: documentary is to recognize that this isn't something deep in 137 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: the past, you know, fifty years ago. This is about 138 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: kids today just as much and even more so, because 139 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: they're more vulnerable than they were back in the seventies. 140 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: And it's not just vulnerable to predators looking for prey. 141 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: These are predators are looking for partners. They're looking to 142 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: groom kids to help them. That's essentially what we're talking 143 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: about is an adult Dean Coral, picked two adolescent boys 144 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: to do his dirty work for him by leveraging them 145 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: and more or less trapping them by using things that 146 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: matter to them until they were in too deep to 147 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 2: get out. And this is the thing that kids face today. 148 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: There are all kinds of sophistications, predators on the internet 149 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: looking for vulnerable kids to bring into the criminal enterprise 150 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: they have, and we're seeing that right now with all 151 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: the Epstein stuff, that kids can be recruited to recruit 152 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: other kids and on it goes. It's pretty horrifying, and 153 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: we want people to understand what are the signals and 154 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 2: what should they be doing when kids say they need help? 155 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: And doctor, that's something you have said, and I'm quoting here, 156 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: there were hard lessons to learn to help us navigate 157 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: today's world. That's what you're talking about, Yes, very much. 158 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: You know there's a meme out there that it says 159 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: something to the fact that it used to be you 160 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: had to protect your child from one person. Well, now 161 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: the whole world has access to your child. 162 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: And even some of their own associates. Other kids might 163 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: be on something sure, finding ways to exploit their trust. 164 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: So, Tracy, I think the ultimate goal that y'all are 165 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: trying to do with this documentary would be what how 166 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: would you condense it? 167 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 3: I think that it is very relevant for doctor Ramsland 168 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: to mention Jeffrey Epstein in this instance because we have 169 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: this staring us in the face right now as a 170 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: societal issue, and the modus operendi is the same across 171 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 3: the board. When you talk about John wayn Gacy, when 172 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: you talk about Dean Coral, Jeffrey Epstein learned ways of 173 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: operating that are directly related to these men. And when 174 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 3: you think about them operating, They cannot operate successfully without 175 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: others empowering them, other people empower clearing the way so 176 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: that they don't get arrested, so that they do have 177 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 3: access to other victims as well as other people that 178 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: will be paying for their services. And so, you know, 179 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 3: doctor Ramsland and I were discussing earlier, we don't know 180 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 3: half as much as we should about the Jeffrey Epstein 181 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: case because with everything else being comparable to these other cases, 182 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 3: is there any form of pornography that surrounds this case? 183 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: Are there any murders that surround this case? These are 184 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: questions that have not yet been answered. They haven't been asked, really, 185 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 3: And so when you have a modus operendi that's copied 186 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 3: over and over again, what elements have people copied? And 187 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: you know, we're just trying to give an example of 188 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 3: what's possible as part of this story. 189 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: And you know, doctor Tryes, it brings up a great point. 190 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: The young man that just murdered the mom and dad 191 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: that we're walking with the two little girls in the 192 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: state park. One of the first things I said is 193 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: he will have pornography on all of his devices. Child 194 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: pornography specifically. I think the children were his target. I 195 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: think those parents probably thought were together, we're in a 196 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: state park. We could not be safer. 197 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: That, yeah, And I don't want to make it seem 198 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: as if every place in the world is dangerous. But 199 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: on the other hand, predators look specifically for places that 200 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: people feel safe and pose as people who seem safe. 201 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: He was a teacher, He was an ordinary looking guy 202 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: aside from the strange hair, but he was an ordinary 203 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: looking guy. And so they really want people to be 204 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 2: off guard, to not see them coming, and they play 205 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: a long game. Quite often, they will brewm a whole neighborhood, 206 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: whole town, a whole city to believe certain things about 207 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: them so that they can operate under the radar. And 208 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: I think, you know, we don't know that much yet 209 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: about his motivation and background. I know some things, but 210 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: I think as it's going to come out, you know, 211 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: you're probably right that he was certainly out there targeting 212 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: possibly those kids. But yeah, he was a dangerous individual 213 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: who found a seemingly safe place to operate. 214 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: Tracy, when you're looking at the documentary and y'all have 215 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: added people that are not in the book and the 216 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: interviews so you're going to have information that's maybe new 217 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: to y'all. How did y'all craft that if it was 218 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: something that y'all were not privy to before. 219 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: I think the thing we wanted to do was to 220 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: get everyone back into Houston in the early nineteen seventies. 221 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 3: We did not want to say, Okay, we've got all 222 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: of this noise going on, with fifty years having passed 223 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: from this case, we want to bring you back into 224 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: Elma Wayne Henley's world. And so one of his best 225 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: friends at the time, Angela Michaels, she, you know, was 226 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: able to talk about what a good person this was. 227 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 3: We were able to talk about them going to concerts, 228 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 3: what an average individual this person was, and so to 229 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: think about Emmayne Henley before all this becomes publicized, you 230 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: start to see a teenager who really would never have 231 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: gone in this direction if you weren't guided there, if 232 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: you weren't manipulated and threatened. We talked with one of 233 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: his fellow Cub Scouts, Mark Nelson, and you just get 234 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 3: this mundane picture of a community that comes to gather 235 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 3: at the Henley household, and these cub Scouts meet up 236 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 3: and they're talking about all sorts of activities, and the 237 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 3: Henley parents, you know, Mary and Elmer sr Are you know, 238 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: guiding these meetings, and all the kids respect them, and 239 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 3: there is no sign of anything untoward until you see 240 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 3: that family start to break down. You start to see 241 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 3: the insertion of Dean Coral and his methods of grooming, 242 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 3: and everything takes a sharp right turn in the wrong direction. 243 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: And as a teenager, Elma Wayne Henley doesn't have the 244 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: ability to stop that. He's responding to all sorts of insecurities, 245 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 3: all sorts of lack of intelligence that you might have 246 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: as an adult, and for so long we've kind of 247 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: superimposed on him. Well he should have known. Will you 248 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: try being a young team and understanding all of these 249 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 3: kind of different ways, you know, somebody like dankorl could 250 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 3: manipulate you. It's very difficult even as adults to grasp. 251 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: I think it's important to also point out about the documentary. 252 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 2: It is balanced. We have relatives of victims talking on it, 253 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: we have law enforcement discussing it. We have people who 254 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: just don't think that Wayne was a good guy, and 255 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: we have people who do. So you're really getting a 256 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: balanced picture of the response to the crimes and the 257 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 2: fact that Wayne is in this odd position of being 258 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: both a victim and a perpetrator, and it's very difficult 259 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: to try to find the language to talk about someone 260 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: like that. 261 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: Sure, and here's the deal. When he's been on Zone 262 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: seven twice, he has stated very clearly he wants to 263 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: help at least one child. That's his whole purpose for 264 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: working with the two of you and now being a 265 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: part of the documentary. How do you think this is 266 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: going to maybe affect him? Like, I know you've talked 267 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: to him. I mean, is he excited about it? 268 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I think he feels that it was worthwhile. 269 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: There was a long process and with ups and downs, 270 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: as documentary making can be, but I think he is 271 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: happy to have finally have had the opportunity to tell 272 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: his story fully without being, you know, having it distorted 273 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 2: in some manner as has happened to him before, and 274 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: that this could potentially reach not just kids who could 275 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: be in trouble, but counselors and teachers and parents who 276 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 2: deal with kids who need to under stand how important 277 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: it is to listen because the essence of his story 278 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: is that he did try to tell somebody. He tried 279 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: to tell several people adults, he tried to get away 280 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: several times. This is something that's not well known about him, 281 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: but what happened is people thought he was crazy or 282 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 2: drunk or on drugs or something. They just ignored his 283 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: cry for help. And he wants people to understand you 284 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 2: have to listen, no matter what it sounds like, you 285 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: have to at least try to help these kids. And 286 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: I think if he believes that this will in fact 287 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: achieve that goal. 288 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: And Tracy, you know, I have watched court go from 289 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: just some people like the prosecution and the defense standing 290 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: and talking to almost more theatrical. They have you know, 291 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: video Now they have all kinds of charts and graphs 292 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: that can move and you can show things and real time. Tracy, 293 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: to me, when I think of what this documentary could 294 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: do for Wayne, especially with Catherine talking to him, is 295 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: how they're going to make it look correct, correct that 296 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: people are going to have the opportunity to hear him 297 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think they could in 298 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: the book. But this will give them an opportunity to say, 299 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: wait a minute, he was a victim, then he became 300 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: a perpetrator. Now he's trying to help so again for you, 301 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: being a documentary executive producer, that is part of the 302 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: story that I would want to really bring to light. 303 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 3: It was such a privilege to be able to match 304 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: up story points with what doctor Ramslan and Wayne Henley 305 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: were discussing. But I must admit I was in charge 306 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: of scripting the second episode and the very exciting part 307 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 3: of that for me was the very last act where 308 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: we start to ask our participants, both for and against 309 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 3: Wayne Henley, now that you know that this had to 310 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: do with sexual trafficking, where there was pornography generated of 311 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 3: the victims, how do you feel about that? And to 312 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 3: have one of the victims' family members say, look, somebody 313 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 3: had to take those photographs, somebody had to send those 314 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: photographs to a publisher, somebody had to put together the 315 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: magazine and then distribute it. That for me, as people 316 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 3: are reflecting the thoughts of that insult to injury for 317 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: the victims, that was a very exciting part of putting 318 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 3: that together. To really bring those voices to a symphony 319 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: that describes sex trafficking and what really happened in this case, 320 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: and that has never been done before. 321 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: Unbelievable. And you know, doctor you and Tracy were so 322 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: gracious to allow me to talk to him with y'all twice, 323 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: and I know how that affected me. I mean for 324 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: days and days, I just kept replaying some things that 325 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: he said and knowing the background and knowing the crimes. 326 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: I can't imagine for you this is in some way 327 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: it's a testament to your career, but it's also again 328 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: using your genius to help other people so that lay people, teachers, parents, counselors, 329 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: football coaches can get this information. 330 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 2: That's what I'm hoping for, and I will say I 331 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: didn't actually expect it was going to move in this 332 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: direction when I had one of the original notions of 333 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: out Henley being a bad kid who sold his friends 334 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: for money to know this predator, because that was the 335 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: original notion that was passed around in the original true 336 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 2: crime books about this. But I wanted to talk with 337 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: him because he seemed in one brief interview about his artwork, 338 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: he seemed intelligent and self reflective, and I thought, well, 339 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: maybe maybe I have something to learn. And so I'm 340 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: hoping that is the same effect on other people who've 341 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: already made up their minds based on outdated information and 342 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: even incorrect information. I hope that's the same experience they 343 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: will have when they listen to him and they see 344 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: what this case really was about, which was not represented 345 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: in the original accounts of this of this case. 346 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,719 Speaker 1: And it's an unbelievable winda into just the most horrific 347 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: types of crime that again target children. And I'm going 348 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: to go back to the young man we were talking 349 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: about in the state park. He not only was a teacher, 350 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: but he got that job over and over and over 351 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: in different states. So they're there, and they're going to 352 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: go to the places where they can get to the 353 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: victims of choice. 354 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: And let's not forget the female teacher who was also 355 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 2: recently caught engaging in a relationship with an underage child. 356 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: It's not just guys. 357 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely excellent point. Yes, And that's the thing. If 358 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: you're wanting to be with a child of a certain age, 359 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: then you're going to be a little league football coach, 360 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: or you're going to teach you the elementary school, you're 361 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: going to be a malsana. You're going to gravitate to 362 00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: those jobs. 363 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's all kinds of ways in if you really determine. 364 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: Of course, pracy, what do you think when the documentary 365 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: is out and people are going to be able to 366 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: engage and talk about it and hopefully start asking some questions. 367 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: What do you want them to be able to take 368 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: away from it to use immediately? 369 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 3: You know, there's I actually want to kind of flip 370 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 3: that question. 371 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: If it's okay, what I don't, Honey, you flip anything 372 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: you want. 373 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 3: Thank you, I'm here flipping. But the thing that I 374 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: don't want people to take away are people who are 375 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 3: dead set in seeing this individual as one of the 376 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 3: worst criminals of all time. You know, the things that 377 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 3: he did while he was under the influence of a complete, 378 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 3: you know, completely manipulative, dangerous individual. The things that he 379 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 3: did were not things that he would have done had 380 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 3: he not met that person. And so when you think 381 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 3: about him committing murder, we have to put that in context. 382 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: And if people are constantly banging the drum of this 383 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 3: is a more than fifty year old narrative, the narrative 384 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 3: has to stick. We have to see this individual as dangerous, 385 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 3: always dangerous, and never redeemable, no matter what he says 386 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: and no matter what new information we have. That's something 387 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 3: that I will be very frustrated if people decide to 388 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 3: seize on language or you know, parts of this story 389 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: without viewing the entire body of information. What I would 390 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 3: hope people do is they say, oh, my goodness, I 391 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 3: can't believe. And this was the same for the investigation 392 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 3: into John Wayne Gacy. I think it will prove out 393 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 3: in the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein is that what we've 394 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 3: had here are people that are in power, who have 395 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 3: access to these illicit activities. They exploit them, they benefit from, 396 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 3: you know, expressing their perversions, and then they get to 397 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 3: write the history that we've now had for the past 398 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: fifty years, assigning Elma Wyn Henley Junior all of the 399 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: viciousness in these crimes. And what I want people to 400 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 3: take away from is, no, this was a child. You know. 401 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,959 Speaker 3: This afternoon, doctor Ramselin and I were saying, you know, 402 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 3: can we accurately get the age at which Elmayn Henley 403 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 3: would have been involved in these crimes? And we went 404 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 3: between fourteen and fifteen years old, And the conclusion we 405 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 3: both came to is that's still very young. When I 406 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 3: imagine my three children being that age. You know, this 407 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 3: is these are not capable individuals. These are still forming individuals. 408 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 3: And so I just feel as though, you know, if 409 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 3: we can look at this with a new information, then 410 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 3: we see how many people prevented Dean Coral being discovered earlier. 411 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 3: How many people must have known he was creating pornography, 412 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 3: how many people must have known that they were purchasing 413 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: his pornography, and that there was a ring that surrounded 414 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: him that was, you know, very wealthy and very connected. 415 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 3: So what we want to walk away from is, let's 416 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 3: take a good look at who we're dealing with. Let's 417 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 3: understand why that individual might be making a suggestion about 418 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 3: taking our kids and kind of you know, doing things 419 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 3: with them that are just doesn't make sense. Why don't 420 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 3: we go ahead in question authority a little bit more. 421 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: That's what I'm hoping people will walk away with, not 422 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 3: that they will be afraid of anyone, but that they 423 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 3: will be more informed about how to behave in these 424 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 3: situations and not take situations in which authorities are presented 425 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 3: to us and take them just lock stock and barrel 426 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 3: everything that they do. Oh, that must make sense, you know. 427 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 3: I did a lot of research into the former Speaker 428 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 3: of the House, Dennis Haster as a result of looking 429 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 3: into these cases, and when I think about how many 430 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: victims Dennis Hastard had even though he continued to progress 431 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 3: in power and status and wealth. And you look back 432 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 3: on him now and you think, you know, it's just 433 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 3: horrible that we empowered him, and we shouldn't be letting 434 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 3: people get away with these things. 435 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: And you know, Doc she mentioned Gacy, and you know 436 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: he was part of a sex rink. I thought that 437 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: was going to come out at Delphi, that there was 438 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: a sex ring when I first heard that one man 439 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: was texting one of the victims and said, Hey, meet 440 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: me at the bridge on this day this time, And 441 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: there just happened to be a second individual, a child killer, 442 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: on that same bridge at the same date and time. 443 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: I thought, surely these people know each other. And then 444 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: they were found on the property of another man that 445 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: had a background, and I just thought, this has got 446 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: to be a ring. 447 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: I don't know that it's definitely not that. The problem 448 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 2: with relying on the information we have is that there's 449 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: a cognitive error we make that all the information we 450 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 2: have is all there is, and that's not necessarily true. 451 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 2: There could be things we will find out later or 452 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: which will never be uncovered, but which are nevertheless true. 453 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to feed a conspiracy theory here, but 454 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: but I always am very careful about saying that we 455 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: have the final story on any case, because I've watched 456 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: just this case, for example, I've watched how it evolved 457 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 2: as we've come up with more and more information. There's 458 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: still stuff being found that we weren't even able to 459 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 2: add in because it's only been found recently. So I 460 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: think that that I wouldn't say definitively there wasn't one 461 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: or that we'll never find out. I think I think 462 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 2: this is that is a case that has some dark spaces, 463 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: yet still I think. 464 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: I would agree with you one hundred percent, because I've 465 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: even said I can't fathom the coincidence that would take. 466 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: I imagine y'all get a lot of questions. I at one 467 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: is about Wayne. Did he ever have any remorse or 468 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: does he have remorse? 469 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 3: Now? You know, having spoken with him on a regular basis, 470 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: sometimes twice a week for the past five years, we've 471 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: had many discussions about Wayne's remorse and how he wish. 472 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 3: You know. One of the first conversations that him and 473 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 3: I actually had, starting in March of twenty twenty, was 474 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 3: I said, did you realize that you were part of 475 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 3: a sex trafficking ring, And he said he was very 476 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 3: intimidated by that. He said, I don't think I know 477 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 3: what you're referring to. I said, I need you to 478 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 3: know that a lot of your victims appeared in pornography 479 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 3: that you had no responsibility for. I said that pornography 480 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 3: was distributed over years and found again and again in 481 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: various collections. And him hearing this was just mind blowing 482 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 3: to him. He had never even considered it. He had 483 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 3: heard of syndicate, He had understood there might be other 484 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 3: people in Dallas associated with Dean Coral, but he had 485 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 3: never been able to He just wanted to follow along 486 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 3: with what had been told to him in court. You 487 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 3: are responsible for these murders that you've committed, and you 488 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 3: will forever be, you know, at the receiving end of guilt. 489 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: And he just kind of banged that drum all along. 490 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 3: And so once we started talking about, wait, this is 491 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 3: a reality that you were not the sole apprentice of 492 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 3: this individual. More than likely there were apprentices before you 493 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 3: that no longer existed when you got there. And then 494 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 3: to kind of bring him into police records that he 495 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: had never had access to that they knew right away 496 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 3: that there was pornography of the victims. That they started 497 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: to associate this with an individual in data Listen named 498 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 3: John David Norman, but that this individual, who was arrested 499 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 3: initially for having four tons of child pornography in Dallas, 500 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 3: managed to escape on bond to the suburbs of Chicago, 501 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 3: uniting with associates of John Wayne Gacy. When you think 502 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 3: about that whole large scenario, I think that Wayne finally 503 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 3: got some relief in the idea that wait, I was 504 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 3: not old enough to consent to this, I didn't even 505 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 3: understand maybe what was happening, and the behaviors that I 506 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 3: experienced were merely for survival. And that was something that 507 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 3: I think both of us had to convince him of 508 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 3: instead of just that he was responsible for every single 509 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 3: murder that happened. 510 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so when I first talked to him, one 511 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: of the very first things he said to me was, 512 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: don't try to talk me out of being responsible for this. Wow, 513 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: what a way to introduce yourself. And you know, but 514 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: I knew that eventually I would be introducing him to 515 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 2: the literature from neuro psychology and the teenage brain and 516 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 2: you know, things like that that would help him understand 517 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: much more about how easily kids are to manipulate. And 518 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't want him necessarily to take a 519 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: stance of resistance, but repeatedly he has expressed remorse and 520 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: he doesn't understand why people don't think he's capable of it, 521 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: which was the idea, you know, back when he was 522 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 2: trying to do some media in the nineteen eighties and nineties, 523 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 2: people just didn't believe that he could he could be 524 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: genuine or have any real deep feeling about being remorseful. 525 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: But he he's horrified at how at what he was 526 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: capable of doing under the influence of Dean Coral. And he, 527 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 2: as he says in the documentary, I'm still living my 528 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: life inside Dean Coral because I'm here because of Dean Coral. 529 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: And these are not the things I would have ever 530 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: wanted to do. He wanted to be a minister, and 531 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 2: he read the Bible every day, carried a little pocket 532 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: Bible around with him. And that's somebody who's not a 533 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: person who wanted to bring harm to others. And so 534 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 2: I think that it's hard for him to understand why 535 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: do people question his ability to feel the remorse that 536 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 2: he says he has, and yet we do come across 537 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 2: that a lot. 538 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: That's powerful. And I just appreciate you both. I mean, 539 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: y'all know how I feel about your work. It is 540 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: invaluable and it is something that needs to be in 541 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: the hands of every teacher and counselor and parent and 542 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: coach and anybody that deals with children in any way. 543 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: So I just appreciate you both. And congratulations on the documentary. 544 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: That is significant and it is well earned and deserved. 545 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. We really appreciate you. 546 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: Cheryl anytime, anytime, y'all. I'm going to end Zone seven 547 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: the way that I always do with a quote, some 548 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: people still to stay alive and some people still to 549 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: feel alive, simple as that. From a darker shade of magic. 550 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.