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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome stuff. I

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Speaker 1: never sold to your protection of I Heeart Radio. So, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: would you say you're passive aggressive? Do you have passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive tendencies? I can't. Uh So, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: deny that. There are moments where I just don't want

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Speaker 1: to deal with it, so I'll be passive aggressive if

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Speaker 1: it's something that like, I will confront people, but it

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Speaker 1: takes me a bit of time and courage to get there.

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Speaker 1: So if I can try to do it passive aggressively,

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Speaker 1: I try to do that first. Sometimes it's according to

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Speaker 1: how good the relationship is too. If I know you

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Speaker 1: well enough, then I'm gonna let you know, but usually

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Speaker 1: in a joking manner. But if I can't do it

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Speaker 1: that way, up, I can't be passive aggressive. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of the same. I think a lot of it

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Speaker 1: has to do with who you're dealing with, kind of

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Speaker 1: the steaks also for me energy level, and sometimes I'm

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Speaker 1: somebody my friends like to say I take things and stride,

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Speaker 1: which I think sometimes can look like passive aggression, but

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Speaker 1: it's really just me, Like I'm really tired. I need

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Speaker 1: to think about this for a minute. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: dismissing that that can look like passive aggression, But sometimes

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Speaker 1: for me it's like I'm I'm just really tired and

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Speaker 1: I need to I need to think about this. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree. I think sometimes I'll match people's energy. If

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Speaker 1: you're being petty towards me, I might come back at

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Speaker 1: you petty. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like the whole

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Speaker 1: idea of passive aggression, especially when it comes to women,

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Speaker 1: we have to keep in mind, as we've talked about

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Speaker 1: a lot, like sometimes we can't just be aggressive for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason it is, and maybe passive aggression is the

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Speaker 1: way that we feel like we can deal with this

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Speaker 1: without it escalating too much. I did have a situation

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Speaker 1: in college with my roommates. There are six of us

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Speaker 1: living in an apartment, and the passive aggression was strong

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Speaker 1: towards the end because we had like three and three

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Speaker 1: against each other sort of, and there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of leaving of notes, a lot of talking behind each

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Speaker 1: other's backs, and then it getting back to the person

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Speaker 1: that was interesting wow wow. Like towards the end, I

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Speaker 1: was keeping my dishes in my room like that's how

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Speaker 1: bad it got, because oh I had a group of

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Speaker 1: friends who just took a pile of the dishes in

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Speaker 1: the laundry in their laundry basket and just placed it

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Speaker 1: in front of the door of the person who wouldn't

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Speaker 1: wash it. So, yeah, I've never gone there. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's wow. Yeah, that's something right there. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: feel like that might be more aggressive, but I mean

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Speaker 1: they never like after I think they talked to him,

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Speaker 1: but then they're like, yeah, we're done. I just put

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Speaker 1: it in front of the door. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, Okay, that's a that's a new level. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's definitely that's into It's so that I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about this because this is classic episode on women and

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Speaker 1: passive aggression, because I recently watched the HBO show Our

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Speaker 1: Flag Means Death, which is tycho a t s one

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Speaker 1: of his new projects. He's he's involved, a lot of

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Speaker 1: other people are involved, obviously, but he's the he's the

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Speaker 1: executive producer, and he's a he plays black Beard in it,

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Speaker 1: and I don't I'm not going to spoil it. Also,

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Speaker 1: they're not a sponsor. My favorite episode is about passive aggression,

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Speaker 1: where the main character Steed, who's sort of this, like

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Speaker 1: fancy posh rich fellow who decides he wants to be

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Speaker 1: a pirate as doing a you know, pretty poor job

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Speaker 1: of it. And you got black Beards played by tycho

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Speaker 1: A t t who's obviously black Beard, and they're kind

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Speaker 1: of wanting to switch places, and you know, the main

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Speaker 1: guy whose names Steed, he's like, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: mess with this aristocratic crowd. They got their passive aggression.

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Speaker 1: They say something and it's mass politely, but it's a

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Speaker 1: weapon meant to hurt, and Beard's like, no, no, whatever,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense. And then of course they turn

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Speaker 1: on black Beard. This crowd of aristocrats turns on turns

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Speaker 1: on him, makes fun of him for not knowing the

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Speaker 1: fork situation. He's upset and kind of like runs away

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Speaker 1: and Steeds like, I'll handle this, and he goes in

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Speaker 1: and basically calls his chaos through passive aggression, and black

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Speaker 1: Beard comes in. He's like, what happened here? And Steed says,

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Speaker 1: passive aggression. I'm hoping to talk about that show soon

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Speaker 1: because I know there's a romance everybody's talking about. Again,

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Speaker 1: no spoilers, but I want to come back and talk

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Speaker 1: about it. But in the meantime that that whole episode

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Speaker 1: really cracked me up. Please enjoy this classic on passive aggression.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen and report to of our armchair

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Speaker 1: Psychology week. Chris and I are talking about passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: behavior SLASH really having some come to Jesus thoughts as

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Speaker 1: we research for this episode. UM, I selfishly requested that

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Speaker 1: we cover the passive aggressive topic because I myself have

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Speaker 1: struggled with passive aggressive behavior in the past. I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to say it like that according to my therapist, not

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Speaker 1: just that I am passive aggressive. Well, I'm really relieved

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Speaker 1: to hear you say that, Caroline, because it could have

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Speaker 1: also been you selfishly wanted to do this podcast so

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Speaker 1: as to better learn how to deal with passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: people you might podcast with. Because this research also it

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Speaker 1: was very eye opening for me as well in terms

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Speaker 1: of my communication style, my conflict resolution style, particularly when

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Speaker 1: it comes to relationships. And one thing we're going to

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Speaker 1: focus on two is this idea that women are more

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive than men. It's a pretty common stereotype. Google

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Speaker 1: will auto fill it for you if you start searching around.

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Speaker 1: So we wanted to find out what passive aggressive behavior

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Speaker 1: really is, where it comes from, whether in fact it

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Speaker 1: is more of a female gendered behavior, and how to

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Speaker 1: deal with it both in other people and also in

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Speaker 1: yourselves and ourselves personally, Caroline, are really learning a lot

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Speaker 1: this week on the podcast. We are I know between

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Speaker 1: O C D and O C p D and now

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Speaker 1: p a passive aggressive behavior? But what what is it?

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Speaker 1: What is it? Exactly? Uh? Passive aggressive behavior is a

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Speaker 1: pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of just openly

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Speaker 1: addressing them. There ends up being this disconnect between what

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Speaker 1: a passive aggressive person is saying and what she ends

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Speaker 1: up doing. So, for instance, when my fiance says, is

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Speaker 1: it fine if I cleaned the bathroom tomorrow instead, and

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Speaker 1: my response is yeah, sure, yeah, no, yeah, no, it's fine.

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Speaker 1: I mean you know what, I'll actually just do it

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Speaker 1: because that's fine. That that is passive aggressive right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And there are so many of those examples that I

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Speaker 1: feel like we'll crop up throughout this episode because I

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Speaker 1: myself also have a lifetime of them. Okay, so what

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Speaker 1: does it look like beyond just telling your fiance or

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Speaker 1: your roommate or whoever, Oh no, that's fine, I'll just

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Speaker 1: do it myself. Um well, it involves resentment and opposition

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Speaker 1: to the demands of other people, particularly to just routine

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Speaker 1: work and social tasks. And so this involves a lot

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Speaker 1: of kind of uh on purpose foot dragging, so procrastination.

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Speaker 1: You might even insert intentional mistakes in response to other

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Speaker 1: people's demands. Because the key here is that passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: people view just like simple requests or obligations or work

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Speaker 1: tasks as super serious, awful demands. This also reminds me,

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Speaker 1: Caroline of one of my favorite scenes in the classic

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Speaker 1: summer camp film Wet Hot American Summer, in which Paul

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Speaker 1: Rudd's character is asked to pick up something that he

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Speaker 1: left on the table in the cafeteria or like throw

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Speaker 1: away his trash or something very simple like that, and

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Speaker 1: his like full bodied, like dragging response of like flailing

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Speaker 1: around and taking so much unnecessary time just to do

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Speaker 1: that simple task is such a perfect satirized example of

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior, just like, oh, are you kidding? I

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Speaker 1: can't throw away the trash. I know, I love that,

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Speaker 1: And it is the perfect physical embodiment of this example.

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Speaker 1: And I am ex to get more into this episode

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Speaker 1: because we are going to talk about where that like

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Speaker 1: resentment of demands comes from. But let's continue talking about

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Speaker 1: what pass progressive behavior looks like. It also includes things

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Speaker 1: like vacillating wildly between hostile defiance and contrition, so almost

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Speaker 1: like you're realizing with the logical part of your brain, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I kind of seemed like a jerk just then. It

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Speaker 1: also could include, you know, we mentioned that on purpose

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Speaker 1: foot dragging. It also includes a cynical, sullen or hostile attitude,

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Speaker 1: so you might just act dents on purpose, or perhaps

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Speaker 1: defend an indefensible position or fact or opinion just for

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Speaker 1: the sake of doing so. But it could also include

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Speaker 1: and this is where it gets a little real, Kristen, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could also include the withdrawal of support, presence, or attention.

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Speaker 1: And this is sort of the crossing your arms and

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Speaker 1: saying fine and walking away. I in my relationships have

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Speaker 1: been super guilty of this, where if somebody does something

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Speaker 1: and I don't agree with it, or it makes me

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Speaker 1: feel bad or I think there's a better way, etcetera, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: on and on I might just, you know, go to

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Speaker 1: the other room and be like, fine, okay, a little

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Speaker 1: a little bit of the silent treatment, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of the silent treatment. And I'm actively working on getting

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Speaker 1: better about having those direct conversations. But I'm not perfect.

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Speaker 1: It's it's progress, not perfection. And I will say to Caroline,

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Speaker 1: since we are being uncharacteristically candid in this podcast episode,

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Speaker 1: listeners might might be a little weirded out right now, um,

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Speaker 1: but I will say that the acting dnse ring a

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Speaker 1: bell with me in terms of relationships, where you do

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Speaker 1: the passive aggressive behavior can turn into you playing dumb,

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Speaker 1: which turns the situation around on the other person to

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Speaker 1: put them in the position of being on the offense. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: you're the poor little victim playing defense and just asking

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Speaker 1: asking questions that really can't be answer because the truth is,

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Speaker 1: you know the answers already. And in addition to these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things, passive aggressive behavior can also include frequent

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Speaker 1: complaints about feeling under appreciated or cheated. This includes envious

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Speaker 1: attitudes and behaviors towards people who seem more fortunate. There

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Speaker 1: was also two gossiping and other pot stirring tactics to

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Speaker 1: turn opinion against someone, And this reminds me also of

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Speaker 1: our splet shaming podcast for sure, well not only are

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Speaker 1: split shaming podcast, but a lot of this also reminds

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Speaker 1: me of the episode we did on Shine Theory talking

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Speaker 1: about female friendship and and good versus bad motivations for

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Speaker 1: a kind of aligning yourself with someone basically, but yes,

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Speaker 1: that effort to sort of hide your own envious or

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Speaker 1: jealous or insecure feelings and behavior by putting the focus

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Speaker 1: on someone else and saying, look at what they're doing wrong,

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Speaker 1: trying to turn opinion against that person in favor of yourself,

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Speaker 1: and one really casual kind of charming sometimes way to

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Speaker 1: do that is through the use of sarcastic jokes. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably guilty of that myself, as with a lot

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Speaker 1: of this stuff that I'm trying to get better at. Um.

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Speaker 1: But part of all of this, too is a passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive People tend to be super sensitive and hyper alert

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Speaker 1: to any nuances they're They're looking for hidden meanings that

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Speaker 1: somebody could be saying something or doing something that is

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Speaker 1: negative towards them. So this grab bag of passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: behaviors makes it pretty clear why passive aggression has such

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Speaker 1: a wretched reputation, because it is a pretty wretched and

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Speaker 1: unhealthy and cyclical set of things that we can do.

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Speaker 1: But why why do people use passive aggression? We found

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Speaker 1: a lot of insight in a column by Sidney Whitson

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Speaker 1: over at Psychology Today kind of walks through a number

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Speaker 1: of reasons why passive aggressive behavior becomes a crutch. And

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Speaker 1: one of the big things is a fact of that anger.

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Speaker 1: Just expressing your anger outright is often socially unacceptable, and

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Speaker 1: I will say particularly for women. Yeah, and along those

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Speaker 1: same lines, being indirectly aggressive or passive aggressive is easier

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Speaker 1: than just being assertive. I mean, this is a thing

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Speaker 1: being assertive and not being a jerk. Just saying what

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Speaker 1: you feel or what you think, or just stating an opinion.

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Speaker 1: That's not always easy for a lot of people. And

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Speaker 1: that's something that you really have to be taught from

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Speaker 1: a young age how to express yourself without trampling over

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Speaker 1: someone else's thoughts or feelings in the process for risk

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Speaker 1: being perceived as say, bossy, yeah, exactly. There's so many

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Speaker 1: nuanced gendered things in this whole passive aggressive package. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's also useful lot because it's so easily justified and rationalized. Christen,

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Speaker 1: kind of what you were saying earlier about turning things

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Speaker 1: around on the person, it's like, uh, you can cast

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Speaker 1: yourself as the victim and blame your failures on someone

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Speaker 1: else's quote unquote unreasonable demands. You know, if mom asks

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Speaker 1: you to make your bed, you can somehow turn it

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Speaker 1: around into being like, well, nothing I ever do is

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Speaker 1: good enough. Apparently I can't, you know, do my chores

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Speaker 1: well enough for you. You can't understand how stressful my

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Speaker 1: life is. I have a test coming up right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And another kind of icky aspect of passive aggressive behavior

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Speaker 1: and motivations behind it is that passive aggressive people tend

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Speaker 1: to uh enjoy the revenge aspect. They use tactics that

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Speaker 1: are designed to sort of get back at a person

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Speaker 1: that they perceived as making unreasonable demands on them, but

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Speaker 1: without anyone detecting the underlying anger. So it's not that

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Speaker 1: I'm like gonna, you know, saw part of the leg

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Speaker 1: of your chair off so that when you sit down

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Speaker 1: and then it falls over. I don't know why they

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Speaker 1: can do yeah, than for doing that to me, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't do that, But I mean in general, not just

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Speaker 1: in this example, Kristen, don't worry. But someone who is

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive might call out sick, for instance, when they

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Speaker 1: feel that their boss is making too many demands on

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Speaker 1: them and that might end up sabotaging the boss's deadlines.

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Speaker 1: And then the boss gets in trouble. But you look

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Speaker 1: completely innocent because you were just outsick. After all, people

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Speaker 1: are making all sorts of demands on you. You deserve

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Speaker 1: a day off well. And that example with the boss

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Speaker 1: is a perfect segue to how passive aggressive behavior can

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Speaker 1: also bestow this false sense of power because when wielded artfully,

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Speaker 1: you are in control of the situation exactly, and that

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Speaker 1: when other people experience this cognitive dissonance of being like, wait,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really sure what's going on. You seem innocent,

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Speaker 1: like you're not angry or doing anything to hurt me,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like I'm being hurt or something's wrong.

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Speaker 1: That puts you in control of a whole other person's

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Speaker 1: feelings and emotions. Now, passive aggressive behavior can help avoid

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Speaker 1: costly confrontations. For instance, in a work setting, you know

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Speaker 1: where you can't or you feel that you can't be

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Speaker 1: outright assertive but I mean, think about those people at work,

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Speaker 1: at various jobs you've had or various classes you've taken

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Speaker 1: over the course of your lifetime. Even if passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: behavior helps avoid a costly conflict, it's still icky. It's

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Speaker 1: still somebody making a joke like, hey, Bob, so you

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Speaker 1: couldn't stop drinking early enough last night to get into

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Speaker 1: work on time. It's like, okay, well, what are you

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Speaker 1: really saying with that comment. What you're really doing is

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Speaker 1: criticizing a coworker or a classmate for behavior that you

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Speaker 1: don't approve of, to make sure that they know that

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Speaker 1: you don't approve of it. Yeah, instead of just saying, Bob,

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Speaker 1: could you come to work on time right please? And

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Speaker 1: maybe start showering because there's an odor now. On a

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Speaker 1: deeper level, too, passive aggressive behavior might also be rooted

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Speaker 1: in a caution, a fear of failure and embarrassment. It

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Speaker 1: establishing kind of a layer between you and a potential

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Speaker 1: hazard that you might see, whether that is some kind

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Speaker 1: of confrontation where you risk being reprimanded or being called

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Speaker 1: out um or the risk, say in a relationship scenario,

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Speaker 1: of putting yourself out there and feeling vulnerable of expressing

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Speaker 1: your emotions and saying, hey, this actually hurt my feelings

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Speaker 1: and this is this is me being really vulnerable in

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Speaker 1: this moment, and instead you kind of protect yourself and

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Speaker 1: being past aggressive about it, and that convert that hypothetical

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Speaker 1: conversation you just had about hey, I'm going to make

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Speaker 1: myself vulnerable. Here is an excellent practice to have when

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Speaker 1: you're in a serious relationship or you know, or a

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Speaker 1: friendship or any relationship with another person that you want

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Speaker 1: to be healthy and continue for a long time. It's

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Speaker 1: good to say, hey, I'm vulnerable. But researchers have found

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Speaker 1: that people who have those super cautious personality styles and

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Speaker 1: have a hyper sensitivity to rejection, we're way more likely

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Speaker 1: than there's to respond to relationship conflicts by doing things

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Speaker 1: like going silent or withdrawing their affection, going cold, doing

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Speaker 1: the whole silent treatment thing. So, since we've outlined all

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Speaker 1: of these different components to passive aggressive behavior and all

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Speaker 1: of the different ways that it can manifest in all

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Speaker 1: the different ways it might be rooted inside of us,

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Speaker 1: the next question is is it just a personality trait

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Speaker 1: that some of us might have, or is it a

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Speaker 1: mental health disorder, and I will see going into the

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Speaker 1: research for this episode. I didn't think of passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: behavior as a disorder. It was just something irksome that

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Speaker 1: certain people do, and historically it has been considered a disorder.

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Speaker 1: Well historically in the twentieth century, I should say, so

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Speaker 1: we should go ahead and lay out there that pass

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Speaker 1: aggressive behavior itself can be an aspect of various mental

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Speaker 1: health conditions, but it is not considered to be its

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Speaker 1: own mental illness. But there is a controversial history that

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Speaker 1: we will dive into right now. So pass aggressive behavior

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Speaker 1: as a disorder was really first documented during World War Two.

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Speaker 1: It was used to describe soldiers who refused to comply

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Speaker 1: with what demands. So there was this War Department memo

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Speaker 1: where they were basically talking about how, hey, our guys

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Speaker 1: in the armed services aren't being openly defiant, but you

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Speaker 1: know what, we've noticed that they are expressing their anger

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Speaker 1: and their aggression through quote passive measures such as pouting, stubbornness, procrastination, inefficiency,

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Speaker 1: and passive obstructionism. And they just figured that this was

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Speaker 1: an immature and neurotic reaction to routine military stress. And

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Speaker 1: it was in the wake of this memo that this

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Speaker 1: idea of passive aggressive behavior or a passive aggressive personality

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Speaker 1: disorder really earned a foothold in military medical literature. And

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Speaker 1: once it was there, once it had its foothold, the

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Speaker 1: American psychological community took notice and adopted the concept. And

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Speaker 1: initially they outlined three distinct types of this passive aggressive disorder,

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Speaker 1: which is passive dependent, passive aggressive, and then just outright aggressive,

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Speaker 1: which to me that was a little confusing about how

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Speaker 1: aggressive could fit under a passion aggressive umbrella. But maybe

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Speaker 1: those psychologists were just being a little pass aggressive about it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. So in the nineteen fifties, in preparation

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Speaker 1: for the First Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which we talk

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Speaker 1: about a lot whenever we talk about mental health issues,

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Speaker 1: the American Psychiatric Association borrowed the military's phrasing and applied

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Speaker 1: diagnostic codes to it and named it passive aggressive personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: And it was so fascinating to me, Caroline, that this

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Speaker 1: whole thing, this entire language that we have for the

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Speaker 1: set of behaviors, just rooted back to World War Two

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Speaker 1: and soldiers being like, I really do I have to know?

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Speaker 1: I don't I really don't want to do this, but

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Speaker 1: not saying that, Oh no, They're not saying hey, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to do this. They're just like, I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna pick up my tree real slow. They were pulling

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Speaker 1: Paul Paul Rudd in like a military uniform, yes please,

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Speaker 1: dragging his body around. Well, so what happens once this

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Speaker 1: condition is added to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual is what

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Speaker 1: happens a lot of times when things are added to

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Speaker 1: the d s M. Suddenly everybody is being labeled with

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Speaker 1: pathologic quote unquote trait disturbances that had to be treated.

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Speaker 1: And this is coming from Christopher Lane at Northwestern University,

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Speaker 1: and I think that he was quoted in a New

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Speaker 1: York Times article and Lane talks about how the American

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Speaker 1: Psychiatric Association was not simply over dramatizing routine behaviors, it

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Speaker 1: was re labeling them malfunctions of biology and neurology the

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Speaker 1: direction in which American psychiatry overall was heading. And according

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Speaker 1: to Lane, they outlawed pouting. And this gets at the

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Speaker 1: controversy over labeling past aggression as a disorder because it

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Speaker 1: also infers a hidden motive. So some therapists and researchers

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Speaker 1: have raised an eyebrow at that, saying, are we kind

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Speaker 1: of just digging a little too much, like looking for

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Speaker 1: something filling in blanks on our own to try to

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Speaker 1: get to this diagnosis. Um. Now, there is a side

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Speaker 1: note in the nineteen sixties, Worth mentioning that some researchers

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Speaker 1: at the time didn't think that women's aggression specifically was

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Speaker 1: worth studying because women were assumed not to be aggressive. So,

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Speaker 1: keeping in mind the title of this podcast is our

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Speaker 1: women more passive aggressive due to the whole stereotype. That

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Speaker 1: was a really fast, uh turnaround from where this entire

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Speaker 1: thing originated, which it was all focused on men soldiers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know women, How could women be aggressive at all?

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Speaker 1: They're so happy cooking? Yes, yes, um, well, so then

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Speaker 1: when we fast forward to nineteen eighty and they're working

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Speaker 1: on the d s M three, this is when research

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Speaker 1: researchers start thinking, we'll wait a second, maybe this passive

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Speaker 1: aggression reflects a specific behavioral response to specific situations rather

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Speaker 1: than a broad personality syndrome. So that Kristen was saying,

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Speaker 1: maybe we're digging too deep and looking for something that's

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Speaker 1: not really there. And of course in the eighties we

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Speaker 1: get another gender side note, because at this point researchers

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Speaker 1: also start wondering whether women are aggressive after all, but

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Speaker 1: just differently. After all, you know, we're physically weaker, so

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Speaker 1: maybe they think we just have to develop other strategies

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Speaker 1: to reach our goals. And more on that later, But

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Speaker 1: moving into with the d s M for the American

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Speaker 1: Psychiatric Association dropped passive aggressive personality disorder and replaced it

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Speaker 1: with the more watered down diagnosis of negativistic personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: And why would they do such a thing, Caroline Well,

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Speaker 1: according to an article in The New York Times about

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Speaker 1: this passive aggression or pass aggressive behavior, it was quote

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Speaker 1: too narrow to be a full blown diagnosis and not

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Speaker 1: well enough supported by scientific evidence to meet increasingly rigorous

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Speaker 1: standards of definition. So good, obviously, the work is being

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Speaker 1: done and put into actually distinguish between quirks. However, negative

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Speaker 1: of a personality and actual personality disorders, and so negativistic

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Speaker 1: personality disorder focused really, I mean, on a lot of

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Speaker 1: the same things that passive aggressive personality disorder did, but

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Speaker 1: it really focused in on moodiness and resistance again to

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Speaker 1: external commands. And so with this switch psychiatrists really begin

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Speaker 1: to distinguish between passive aggressive behavior, which most people Caroline

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Speaker 1: and myself included display at times, and a passive aggressive personality,

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Speaker 1: which is that ingrained habitual personality trait. And for one

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Speaker 1: psychological side note, it's also been linked not so surprisingly

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Speaker 1: with narcissistic personality disorder, which itself is associated with fear

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Speaker 1: and the decision making processes avoidance behaviors at work. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And because the whole thing with narcissistic personality disorder is

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Speaker 1: you're employing your avoidance behaviors because you don't want to

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Speaker 1: look bad. You think you look great, and you want

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Speaker 1: to keep looking great, and you don't want to do

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Speaker 1: anything that could compromise that um. But with passive aggressive behavior,

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Speaker 1: you're avoiding things for a whole kind of different set

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Speaker 1: of reasons. But it is linked to things in the brain,

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Speaker 1: things like the amygdala, which is key in processing emotions

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Speaker 1: and is linked to fear and pleasure responses both, which

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Speaker 1: is interesting because it's like, you're afraid of something like

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Speaker 1: a conflict, but you also, I wonder do you also

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Speaker 1: then get pleasure out of avoiding it? But anyway, it's

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Speaker 1: also linked to the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for

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Speaker 1: control and our ability to act in socially appropriate ways.

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Speaker 1: So to me, not being a scientist or a neurologist

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Speaker 1: or anything, it sounds like there's just this sort of

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Speaker 1: tug of war of fear and pleasure and avoidance and

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Speaker 1: conflict all going on. So if we're talking about the brain, though,

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Speaker 1: then that suggests to me that there might be some

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Speaker 1: nature at work with this whole passive aggressive thing. But

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Speaker 1: we also mentioned too the socialization in terms of anger

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Speaker 1: not being appropriate, particularly for girls to exhibit directly, so

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Speaker 1: that suggests some nurture. So what's going on nature versus nurture?

429
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: Of course, there's a little bit of a shrug when

430
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: it comes to that. I'm like, well, I don't know,

431
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: because when it comes to heritability, we're looking at the

432
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: nature side of things. A two thousand one study estimated

433
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: heritability among school age twins to that's pretty strong. Yeah,

434
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: So basically, the higher the proportion of heritability, the stronger

435
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: the resemblance between parents and kids. And so with a

436
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: fifty percent heritability proportion, it's not saying that you get

437
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: your passive aggression from your parents and from the environment.

438
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: It's more just saying that that it's that likely to

439
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: be inherited and is actually a pretty high proportion. But

440
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: of course there's the environmental factor as well, because a

441
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: lot of these pass regressive behaviors that many books have

442
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: been written about that therapists talk about to their clients

443
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: all the time, it's traceable to childhood experiences in parenting,

444
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about more in just a minute.

445
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: So passive aggressive behavior, even this personality, this pattern could

446
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: stem from a negative set of experiences linked with things

447
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: like in effective heart or apathetic parenting, child abuse and neglect.

448
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: There are I mean, it's really it's sad when you

449
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: start to read about the links between first starting with

450
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: the relationship between parents, and then how that impacts the children, right,

451
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: and then how the children witnessed that relationship between the parents,

452
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: and how passive aggressive behavior might be modeled indirectly and directly,

453
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: and how we all absorb those things. And then we

454
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: grew up to become adults stating a podcast studio, realizing

455
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: our own tendencies. Yeah, and I mean I was talking

456
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: to my boyfriend about this and I was saying, you know,

457
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: I don't specifically remember when I was really young, Like,

458
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: I don't remember my parents doing anything. We're saying anything

459
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: specifically that's passive aggressive. But as he pointed out rightfully,

460
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: so well, if you're this little kid, you don't know

461
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: any different, you know, you just witness and then have

462
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: these behaviors modeled for you. But we're reading this chapter

463
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: in the book Family Treatment of Personality Disorders, Advances and

464
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: Clinical Practice, and I did. I thought it was so

465
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: sad reading about the effect that passive aggress of behavior thoughts,

466
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: you know, speech can have on kids because they are

467
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: so malleable. We don't have to be the people to

468
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: tell you that kids pick up on everything. Um. But

469
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: the authors wrote that quote extreme contradictory parental attitudes and

470
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: inconsistent training methods um to a degree that's higher than normal. Basically,

471
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 1: one parent liking something and the other one doesn't. One

472
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: parent punishing something and the other one rewards it. That,

473
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: as you might imagine, leads to a lot of confusion.

474
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: The child is confused and he doesn't know what to

475
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: expect from his environment. And if a kid, a little

476
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: impressionable kid, doesn't know what to expect, then he gets

477
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: even more confused. He gets scared, he feels insecure in

478
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: his relationships and in his environment, especially when he feels

479
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 1: like he's incapable of influencing his own environment consistently, And

480
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: so the authors talked about how the kid will then

481
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: go on to develop a heightened sense of emotionality and

482
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: ends up opting for ambivalence rather than direct behavior. In

483
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: other words, the passive aggressive behavior is just passed on

484
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: down the line. And one of the examples that the

485
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: authors offered of that kind of contradictory behavior that a

486
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: parent might display to a child is the verbal expression

487
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: I love you coupled with a non verbal expression of getaway.

488
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: Yeah so, and that also leads to what we mentioned

489
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: a little while ago, in terms of constantly being on edge,

490
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: searching for those hidden meanings, trying to decode what someone

491
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: is really saying. Yeah, I mean, okay, So my boyfriend

492
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: has a deep voice. Naturally, it's actually are you here?

493
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: It was just it's just me, Caroline christ Okay, that

494
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: was weird. Um. Yeah, he has this really deep voice,

495
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: but when he's really tired or he just woke up

496
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: or whatever, it's even deeper and flatter. So he was

497
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: telling me the story about how um, when he used

498
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: to go to this one particular coffee shop really early

499
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: every morning. He would get up really early for work

500
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: of straight to the coffee shop and he'd walk up

501
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: to the barista in order a coffee, and he'd get

502
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: this look from the person behind the counter, like are

503
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: you going to have that attitude with me? So he

504
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: made it a point every morning when he walked in

505
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: two in his deep voice, say something to the effective

506
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: like hey, I would like a coffee please, you know,

507
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: without ending up sounding like he's making fun of the

508
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: person or being snide um. But he has to actively

509
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: work on that stuff. And so I tell you that

510
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: long drawn out story to say that there have been

511
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: plenty of times in our relationship in which I am

512
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: very secure and happy when he has said something in

513
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: that like low tired voice, and I look at him

514
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: and I'm like, is something wrong? What's going on? Because

515
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: I just automatically assume that there is some hidden meaning

516
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: and a lot of things that either he or other

517
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: people say, if they don't appear to be like totally chipper.

518
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: It's as though we're looking for the emoticons, you know,

519
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: just that that assurance that yes, yes, this is this

520
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: is me smiling even though I put a period there

521
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: instead of an exclamation point. I'm happy, or or just

522
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: faking it, I know. One interesting finding, though, is that

523
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: firstborn children are likely candidates to be passive aggressive. And

524
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: this is coming from psychiatrists Laurena Benjamin talking to The

525
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: New York Times, who said basically that when the younger

526
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: siblings are born, that oldest child might suddenly be expected

527
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: to take on far more extra work, keeping on more responsibility,

528
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: and then over time become gradually resentful because of these

529
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: parental demands suddenly being placed on them, and also I

530
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: mean less attention and focus being placed solely on them. Yeah,

531
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: and this really this really hit home for me. Um

532
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: as far as Benjamin is discussing this idea of hostile cooperation,

533
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: I mean, how can you cooperate when you're hostile? But

534
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: that's the core of passive aggressive behavior thoughts, feelings, et cetera,

535
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: is that you're doing something or you're saying something, but

536
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: you don't believe it, you don't believe what's behind it.

537
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: And so Benjamin and other researchers have talked about how

538
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: passive aggressive people are full of unacknowledged contradiction of angry kindness, compliance, defiance,

539
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: and covert assertiveness. So that's got to be mentally exhausting,

540
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: right to constantly have this tug of war between what

541
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: you're saying and what you're doing. Well, in speaking of

542
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: the tug of war, a lot of therapists would say

543
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: that this might come from a parental dynamic where one

544
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: is dominant and the other is submissive, and the submissive

545
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: party uses passive aggression in order to deal with the

546
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: more dominant one while retaining still that dynamic. There's their

547
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: interesting relationships within the relationship between dependence and independence and

548
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: dominance and submission, and then how passive aggression sort of

549
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: we use the colorful tapestry between it all. Yeah, But

550
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: I mean, if if young children are witnessing their parents

551
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: exhibit these behaviors, then they essentially learned that volatile or

552
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: dominant people cannot be directly approached, that they must be

553
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: dealt with in an indirect, passive manner. But it's not

554
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: all bad though, right, because about a decade ago, researchers

555
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: were saying, well, this could also stem from a quote

556
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: unquote positive place, a positive socially protective instinct, basically saying

557
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: like it's well intentioned passive aggression of saying I really

558
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: want to keep the peace. I want to just get

559
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: through the day. Let's not have any confrontation, no hunt like,

560
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: everything should be copathetic. So I'll just use these more

561
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: indirect tactics for that. Yeah, but what's unfortunate. It's one

562
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 1: thing if you're grown up trying to be like ha ha, No,

563
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: this Thanksgiving dinner is perfectly fine, nothing's wrong here. Grandma's

564
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: not saying anything racist, um, Like, that's one thing. But

565
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: when it's a child watching this stuff and learning that, oh, well,

566
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: that's how you interact with other human people. Um, then

567
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: that's where you get the bad problems that send people

568
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: to therapy to undo years of thinking that passive aggressive

569
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: behavior is okay. But yeah, we want to dive into

570
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: the gender question, of course, because it's us and we're

571
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: going to regardless. Um. But it's often assumed that passive

572
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: aggressive behavior is more often diagnosed or just exists more

573
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: often in women, and what is up with that. There's

574
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: a couple of different theories behind it. But first of all,

575
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: we should address what we kind of talked about in

576
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: our Shine Theory episode, that there is a gender divide

577
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: for sure in terms of how we experience and express

578
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: our anger. And this is coming from Melissa Dittman in

579
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: a paper for the American Psychological Association in two thousand

580
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: three UM. She cites psychologist Sandra Thomas who asserts that

581
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: we are all men, women, young, old. We are all

582
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: poorly served by the gender socialization that we grew up with.

583
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: Thomas says men have been encouraged to be more overt

584
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: with their anger. If boys have a conflict on the playground,

585
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: they acted out with their fists. Girls have been encouraged

586
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 1: to keep their anger down. Women usually get the message

587
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: that anger is unpleasant and unfeminine, and therefore their anger

588
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: may be misdirected in a passive aggressive maneuver such as

589
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: sulking or destructive gossip. Now. She also conducted a nine

590
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: three study looking at the roots of women's anger, which

591
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: we discussed in an earlier podcast on women and Anger,

592
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: which would make an excellent follow up listening to this

593
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: episode if you haven't heard it already, and it found

594
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: that the main roots of women's anger, and keep in

595
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: mind this is the early nineties, curious to see how

596
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: this would change today, but she identified powerlessness injustice and

597
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: the irresponsibility of other people, which sounds to me like

598
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: people not putting their dishes in the dishwasher correctly. Yeah,

599
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: I um, I read that, and I just went to

600
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: check check check um. And especially in light of our

601
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: previous episode on obsessive compulsive disorder, when we mentioned briefly

602
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive personality disorder, and whereas an o c D

603
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: person uh realizes that their thoughts and actions are illogical,

604
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: the O c p D person thinks that they are

605
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: right in a self righteous manner. It's like, Okay, I

606
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: can see how like injustice fits in with that, like

607
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: the thing that you judged to be in just uh.

608
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: And then you of course tied in with that you

609
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: judge other people to be irresponsible. But anyway, um. Overall,

610
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: according to psychologist Raymond D. Giseppe, there's really not a

611
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: major difference in men's and women's overall angers or it

612
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: is just in life, but we do experience it differently.

613
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: So men scored higher on physical and passive aggression huh,

614
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,479
Speaker 1: and experiences of impulsivity in dealing with their anger, and

615
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: they're also likelier to have a revenge motive. Meanwhile, what

616
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: are women doing? Women were found to be angrier longer.

617
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: We were found to be more resentful and less likely

618
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: to express our anger, not so surprisingly, and women were

619
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: also likelier to write off a higher number of people

620
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: intending to never speak to them again because of their anger.

621
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: So like the eternal silent treatment doing the freeze out. Um. Now,

622
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: of course, there's the theory that has been battered around

623
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: quite a bit regarding that whole issue of powerlessness that

624
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: Thomas wrote about. It's that power and balance between men

625
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: and women that a lot of people assume is that

626
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: the root of women's resorting to passive aggressive behavior. And

627
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: so that chapter in the Family Treatment book that we

628
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: referenced earlier says that the passive aggressive style may be

629
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: a way for women to avoid the social stigma and

630
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: rejection that are often associated with women who are seen

631
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 1: as challenging or aggressive and advocating for their own needs

632
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: and wants a k A. The B word, Oh bitch, yeah,

633
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: that word not badass. And so they go on to

634
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: say that the fact that this disorder may be diagnosed

635
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: more in women then in men may be an artifact

636
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: of therapists immersion in a patriarchal culture rather than a

637
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: genuine epidemiological gender difference. Oh my gosh, that makes it

638
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: all seem so inescapable, even even our therapists or are

639
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: victims of the patriarchy, aren't we all? But you know,

640
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: I mean, historically people have not been able to agree

641
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: about whether men or women are more likely to develop

642
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior. Um and it could have to do

643
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: with the way that we perceive an action depending on

644
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: at actor's gender. And in the book Passive Aggression, A

645
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: Guide for the Therapist, the Patient, and the Victim, Martin

646
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: Cantor writes about how uh, some authors, for instance, focus

647
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: on passive aggression in men, or believe that it's found

648
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: in men more often. Others say that it's more prevalent

649
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: among women. But he cites one psychiatrist who speculates that

650
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: the reason for this is that when men display this

651
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: same passive aggressive behavior that women do, they're judged as

652
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 1: being tough minded, sticking to their guns, while those characteristics

653
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: among women are viewed as bitchy or passive aggressive. So

654
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 1: have we unintentionally then gendered passive aggression as a female characteristic,

655
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: even though throwing back to the origin of the very

656
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: diagnosis which started out solely with a group of men.

657
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: Isn't fascinating how we completely flipped the script on our own. Yeah,

658
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: not to say that I'm trying to have some false

659
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: competition of like who's the more passive aggressive among us?

660
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,439
Speaker 1: I mean, we all need to uproot passive aggression from

661
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: our behaviors. But still, it's kind of incredible how quickly

662
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: that stereotype developed. But of course, to evolutionary biology has

663
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: got to weigh in with this because we've talked about

664
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: power and balance, we've talked about uh anger, the expression

665
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: of anger directly, and sex differences in physical strength. So

666
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: what does evo bio have to say, Well that it

667
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: says well, of course women are more passive aggressive because

668
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: it's a strategy. It's the only thing that we really

669
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: have naturally to use because we can't really use our fists.

670
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: We also have to make sure that we take care

671
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: of our babies. Yeah, exactly. It's it's the idea that

672
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: we have to essentially demoralize our competition to take our

673
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: sexual rivals out of the picture. But we can't go

674
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: around punching people in the stomach or in the face. Um.

675
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: And it's also the idea that throughout history you know,

676
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: obviously our role in childbearing is critical to say the

677
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: least um and so you know, our cave women ancestors

678
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: couldn't exactly risk a physical conflict that could hurt us.

679
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: So instead, we in our loincloths uh turned to shunning

680
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: fellow cave women. But that in and of itself is

681
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: almost as bad, if not worse, as fighting, because if

682
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: you don't have your network of fellow cave mommy's to

683
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: help you raise your cave babies, then you could potentially

684
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: die or your baby could suffer. I also, at this point,

685
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: I'm imagining a cave woman making snarky jokes, snarky passive

686
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: aggressive jokes, and it is kind of funny, but it

687
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: jumped out to me though. In one of the papers

688
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: putting this putting forth this theory by Tracy Vincourt, and

689
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: it was published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society

690
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: B in two thousand thirteen, she wrote, quote, human females

691
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 1: have a particular proclivity for using indirect aggression. She just

692
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: lays it out there, basically saying, like, ladies, this is it.

693
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: We are. We're at the passive aggressive ones because of

694
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: our intra sexual competition. And we also this is a

695
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: study too that came up in our slut Shaming podcast

696
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 1: as well as our Shine Theory podcast. All these things

697
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 1: are sort of interacting in a or intersecting, I should say,

698
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: in a really interesting kind of way, because I mean,

699
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: it really is a slippery slope to sexual policing and

700
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: slutt shaming. Yeah, exactly. But I'm going to go ahead

701
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: and say that I think that is a bunch of

702
00:43:53,760 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: junk because passive aggressive behavior, you know, on its own,

703
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: is easily uprooted. It is easily combated, and don't worry,

704
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: we'll arm you with some tactics to uproot it. But

705
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you look at the way

706
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: that we're socialized, that has so much to do you know,

707
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: either man or a woman, male, female, whatever, um, the

708
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: way that you're socialized has so much to do with

709
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: the way that you express anger. And if you are

710
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 1: someone male or female, young or old, who has been

711
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: told that expressing anger or conflict in a certain way

712
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: is bad, you're not going to do it that way.

713
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: You're going to seek that more indirect route. And so

714
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: I have to disagree with the EVO bio. Yeah, I

715
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: always want to take evo bio and evo psyche with

716
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: a grain of salt, just because it doesn't seem like

717
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: a lot of those theories can and I don't think.

718
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: I think in the evolutionary biologist listening to be cringing

719
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: saying that's not the point to apply it like to

720
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: our day to day lives today. But if we move

721
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: into the working world, for instance today in our twenty

722
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: century environments, out of the caves and into the corporate landscape,

723
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: researchers found that men are just as likely to use

724
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: indirect aggression. Yeah, and this is a point that was

725
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: mentioned in that evolutionary biology theory paper that Christen was

726
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: talking about. Uh and it echoes thesis by University of

727
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: South Florida student basically that men and women are just

728
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 1: as likely to use passive aggression rather than active, especially

729
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: in the workplace. Um They found that workers and employers

730
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: reports of the workers aggression on the job didn't match

731
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: up compared to supervisor's reports. They say, female employees self

732
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: reports tended to be higher in all eight of the

733
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: types of aggression in the workplace that were measured, whereas

734
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: male employees self reports were only higher in passive workplace

735
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: aggression than their supervisor's reports. Male supervisors, on one hand,

736
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: were found to report more of their subordinates verbal, direct, active,

737
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: and interpersonal workplace aggression than female supervisors, and male employees

738
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,959
Speaker 1: were reported by their immediate supervisors to engage in more

739
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 1: active workplace aggression. So I'm just wondering if maybe that women,

740
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: we think that we're being aggressive by being passive aggressive,

741
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: and so we just assume that we're higher and outrageously

742
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: so in all of these different types of aggression, but

743
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: in actuality, it's either not being picked up on by

744
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: the supervisors because it is so under the radar, or

745
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: because passive aggressive behavior is so hard to pin down

746
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: and say like, oh, well, you know, Jennifer did this,

747
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: this and this. It's it's hard to report and so

748
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 1: it just doesn't get reported. It seems like at this

749
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: point the research on passive aggressive behavior, like looking at

750
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: it in men versus women, and how we interpret it

751
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: is still rather muddy, because how we perceive our own

752
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: behavior is different from how other people perceive our behavior

753
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: is been influenced by gender, is been influenced by nature.

754
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: It's complicated, Caroline, It's a little bit complicated. But the

755
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: good news with all of this is is that the

756
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: tools for recognizing and dealing with passive aggressive behavior, both

757
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 1: in others and in yourself is a lot more straightforward,

758
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say? Yeah, it is, And I think you know,

759
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 1: I have already started practicing a lot of these things

760
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: in my own life. And and a big one is

761
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: to just whether you are the aggressive or the passive

762
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: aggressor or the person who is on the receiving end,

763
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: A big thing is to just identify the behavior to

764
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: nail it down. And so if if you are the

765
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: victim of a passive aggressive set of behaviors, you need to,

766
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: like we said, identify the behavior and look for the

767
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: person's avoidance of conflict at all costs. Uh, feeling like

768
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: you're being put into never win scenarios like you're always

769
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: wrong and she's always the victim, constantly having to placate

770
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: the person by telling him what he wants to hear,

771
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: or being subjected to endless strings of complaints that she's

772
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: just misunderstood. And once you kind of identify that the

773
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: person you're talking to is using passive aggressive behavior, it's

774
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: really time to rethink your own Have you contributed to

775
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: the conflict have your actions escalated the confrontation. But okay,

776
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: so once you've gotten through that, you really should silence

777
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 1: that voice in your head that's telling you that you

778
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: are responsible for the passive aggressive person's words or actions,

779
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: because hello, you can't change people, So don't let yourself

780
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: be manipulated in the process of that. It's important to

781
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: stay calm, don't respond with your own passive aggression because

782
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, to passive aggressive people in a fight,

783
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 1: it's that was maddening. That was my entire life living

784
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: with dude roommate. Love him however, however, um and also,

785
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,919
Speaker 1: don't attack the person because that's only going to sort

786
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: of let the other person win in a way, because

787
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: you're going to come off as that dreaded authority figure.

788
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: So you disarmed the passive aggression with direct honesty and

789
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: focus on the real issue and recognize that it is

790
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: hostility and a type of power struggle. And so instead

791
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: of freaking out that you're in a power struggle, just

792
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 1: set limits and boundaries and follow through. It is a

793
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: little bit it sounds like taking a higher road, stepping

794
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: up owning your own you know, owning your own actions.

795
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: You only have control over yourself and doing as much

796
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: as you can do to sort of guide the other

797
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: person through that. Yes. So, for instance, when I was

798
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: researching for this episode and I was talking to my

799
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: boyfriend about it and how I recognized a whole lot

800
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: of this passive aggressive behavior and myself, Um, we talked

801
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: a lot about it, and we've taken to sort of

802
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: not checking in. That sounds too like clinical and regimented.

803
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: But you know, if I seem off for whatever, for

804
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: whatever reason, he might check in. Um. But instead of

805
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: fretting the whole afternoon, if I'm mad at him or whatever,

806
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: or uncomfortable with something, I've asked him to please take

807
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: me at my word. I'm going to work hard to

808
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: be direct. And so if you think that something's wrong, sure,

809
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 1: ask me about it. Um. But if I say no,

810
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: nothing's wrong, um, you know, take me at my word.

811
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: We've we've got to kind of hold each other to

812
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: that directness. Well, and that leads us to the issue of, well,

813
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: how do you deal with your own passive aggressive behavior.

814
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: You're establishing new patterns for yourself challenging yourself to be direct.

815
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: Is that when you say you're fine, he can trust

816
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: you that you are fine. And you kind of have

817
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: to own up to that on the other side of

818
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 1: that trust relationship as well. Now, there was one study though,

819
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: real quickly that I was looking at, highlighting how there

820
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: has been scant research on a active psychotherapy for passive aggression.

821
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: Um there is cognitive behavioral therapy which is commonly used,

822
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: which is just the general stuff of learning how to

823
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: monitor your thoughts and recognizing when you're angry, challenging and

824
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: examined assumptions about confrontation, identifying when your actions are disconnected

825
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: from how you actually feel. In other words, just kind

826
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: of being honest with yourself and staying in touch with

827
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,959
Speaker 1: what is really going on instead of falling back on

828
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: the crutch that passive aggression can become. Yeah, and just

829
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 1: sort of that drive to avoid drama, because when somebody's

830
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 1: passive aggressive in a relationship and the other person doesn't

831
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: know what going on, that just automatically stirs up a

832
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: lot of drama. It's so much better to just be

833
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: direct and if you're upset, just express why you're upset,

834
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,439
Speaker 1: and and recognize that passive aggressive behavior is a form

835
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: of self sabotage, because when all you're doing is blaming

836
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: other people, for your own failures or shortcomings. You don't

837
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: get the chance to figure out for yourself what you

838
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: actually want and except that anger isn't bad and confront

839
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: your fear of conflict. This has been a big thing

840
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: for me in terms of, like, well, how do I

841
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: process and express my anger because I don't want to

842
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: freak anybody out. But at the same time, I mean,

843
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: there are certain theories too about how like and you

844
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: can use anger to your benefit, And this is one

845
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: of those examples because directly and calmly stating why you're

846
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: upset is okay and far more productive than trying to

847
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: mask it and skirt around it and sort of funnel

848
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: your anger into someone else so that they can get

849
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: angry so that you can then be in the defensive position. Right.

850
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: I know it's so twisted, But speaking of twisted, part

851
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: of your therapy or part of your own self discovery

852
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: might just be revisiting those childhood scenarios and realizing that

853
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 1: your relationship with your parents or their relationship with each

854
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: other does not have to be the model for all

855
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: of your relationships, whether that's with a partner or an

856
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 1: authority figure or a friend or whomever. I mean, I

857
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 1: my parents. Definitely. I mean, if you're going to talk

858
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: about somebody being dominant and somebody being submissive and the

859
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: other person being passive aggressive and the other person being direct,

860
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they definitely trade off. They're like pros at

861
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: trading off. One person being passive aggressive in response to

862
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: the other person's like domineering behavior in one arena and

863
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 1: then it switches in another arena. Um. But ah, it's

864
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: so refreshing to just repeat to yourself that you don't

865
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: have to be your parents and that you can kind

866
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: of dig down into your own psyche, whether that's just

867
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: by yourself again or just you know, with a therapist

868
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: and uncover the roots of this behavior and set your

869
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: own new healthy patterns. And maybe for women listening to

870
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: reminding ourselves that a stereotype is a stereotype, we don't

871
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: this doesn't have to be our weapon choice. And for

872
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: men listening who have women in their lives not you know,

873
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: remembering that keeping that in mind as well in order

874
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: to recognize their own passive aggressive behavior. Because I know

875
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,479
Speaker 1: some fellas whom I hold very dear to my heart,

876
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: and I see them being passive aggressive as much as

877
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: I can be passive aggressive. So what do you think, though, Caroline,

878
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: to wrap it up, what do you think about that

879
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: ultimate question though, of our women more passive aggressive or

880
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: is the stereotype simply a product of our gendered interpretation

881
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: of passive aggressive behavior. I think it has way more

882
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: to do with the gendered interpretation of of anger and

883
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: expressing it and living through it. I mean, I think that,

884
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, it really goes back to the way that

885
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: we are socialist, in the way that we've been socialist

886
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 1: false centuries to to act a certain way. I mean,

887
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't until the late twentieth century that people started going, oh,

888
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: maybe women do get angry. Well, a light bulb justment

889
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: off of my head, Caroline. So maybe it's not that

890
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 1: women are more passive aggressive, but that it is more

891
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: socially acceptable, whether we like it or not, for women

892
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: to be passive aggressive versus being outright angry, because we

893
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 1: would expect that more of guys because from the time

894
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: that they are little boys, a lot of times they're

895
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: socialized to solve conflicts directly and sometimes with their fists

896
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: and with their anger, and girls are told to be

897
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: prim So I think, well, yeah, and I think whoever

898
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: you are male, female, masculine, feminine opting to be honest

899
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: and direct while being calm, I think is the better

900
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: answer when when it comes to anger and upset feelings

901
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: and drama and avoiding drama. Um, I think being direct

902
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: can only benefit relationships. And now we have a direct

903
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: request for you, dear listeners. We want to hear from

904
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: you about passive aggression. Did s ring as many bells

905
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: for you as it did for Caroline and me, whether

906
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: it's in your own life or in a relationship, or

907
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: in someone who is in your life a boss, a boyfriend,

908
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: a mother, a father. Let us know mom Stuff at

909
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address. You

910
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages

911
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to

912
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: share with you all right now, Well, I have a

913
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: letter here from Sadika in response to our Kink Week episodes.

914
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,720
Speaker 1: This one is on b D s M. Specifically, she says, Hi, ladies,

915
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to say thanks for all of the awesome

916
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: content you create as a lady of color within the

917
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: b D s M community. It felt really nice to

918
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: have someone not only acknowledge women of colors involvement but

919
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: also race play. It also felt nice to hear about

920
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: other feminists who are part of the kink community. After

921
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: I feel accepted that I'm a submissive, I felt an

922
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: ache leave me and allowed me to be better as

923
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: a person. I became more open minded and empathetic. Once again,

924
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: thank you for your work, y'all rock and so do you.

925
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for your letter. Well, I have a letter here

926
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: from Sunny about our Kink Week episode on the Professional Dominatrix,

927
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: and she writes, I really enjoyed Kink Week on stuff

928
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: Mom never told you. I think it's really easy, particularly

929
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: for vanilla people who aren't involved in the lifestyle and world,

930
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: to turn kink into something to joke about or awkwardly

931
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: tipped to around, or even outright judge. I really appreciate

932
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: the effort to take the subject seriously and to keep

933
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: an open mind about it all. As for the question

934
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: you pose about how people in the lifestyle feel about

935
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: celebrities and media co opting and reappropriating our subculture personally

936
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: strong emphasis on personally. I think that when it's done

937
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: to honestly celebrate sexuality and encourage creativity and exploration, rather

938
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: than purely for sensationalism and titilation. I'm fine with it.

939
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: I'm of course ecstatic when it's also done well. I'm

940
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: really only truly offended when the lifestyle is treated as

941
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: complete fiction, where literally none of our culture or rules

942
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: or practices are respected, and one is treated like a joke.

943
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: No one must to be someone's punchline or caricature, where

944
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: you're treated as more of a stereotype than a person.

945
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: Too often, when we're depicted in the media, kinsters are

946
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: portrayed as either monsters or victims were seen as less

947
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: than human. Where the crazy X who was psycho nuts

948
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: but a wild ride and one hell of a one

949
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: up sex story. Or where the damaged victim who gets

950
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: raped or abused because we wandered too far from the

951
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: normative path and into deviant stuff we shouldn't have and

952
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,959
Speaker 1: needs to be saved or cured. Or where the dead

953
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: body left humiliated and strung up like a cross between

954
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: bad gallows humor and left over holiday decorations in the

955
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: middle of a crime scene. Again, we'd never allow artists

956
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: to get away with that one portraying other types of people.

957
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: What may said okay when they do it to us,

958
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: but when the portrayal has done honestly with respect and research.

959
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: It feels validating even though it's not me either. Depicting

960
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: from a TV screen or movie screen or computer screen

961
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: far far away, it feels like being seen and having

962
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: talked to my friends. I know. The more the kinsters

963
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: are honestly portrayed in the media, the easier it is

964
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: for vanilla people to understand that their preconceived notions may

965
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: not be the whole truth. The more visible we get

966
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: to be in the media as who we really are

967
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 1: rather than what too many people think we are or

968
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: want us to be. The better anyway, thank you for

969
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: the podcast. As always, you treated your subjects with respect

970
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: and produce wonderful results. Well, thank you for the wonderful letter, Stunny,

971
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: and keep the letters coming. Mom. Stuff at how stuff

972
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address and for links

973
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of

974
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,959
Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with links

975
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: to all of the research on passive aggressive behavior so

976
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 1: you can learn more. Like Caroline and me, head on

977
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never told you dot com, but

978
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it

979
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: how staff works dot com