WEBVTT - Becoming Martian (featuring Dr. Scott Solomon) 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.240 Longtime listeners of dKu will know that I'm a wet 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:15.200 blanket about Okay, well, I'm a wet blanket about just 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:18.560 about everything, but in particular, I'm a wet blanket about 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.280 the topic of settling Mars. But hear me out. Okay, 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:27.280 let's imagine a world where we do actually have thousands 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:31.120 of people living on the Martian surface, and they live, 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:35.680 they survive, and they start to have children. What might 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.920 that be like? This future is imagined by my friend, 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:45.440 colleague and regular dKu podcast guest, doctor Scott Solomon in 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.239 his new book Becoming Martian How Living in Space will 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:53.800 Change Our bodies and minds. Scott is an evolutionary biologist, 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.880 and his new book asks questions like whether evolutionary changes 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:02.040 might happen to Martians across many generations, and whether we 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:06.199 might even see a new species of human emerging on Mars. 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:08.480 So today we're going to chat with him about some 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.240 of these evolutionary questions about what might happen to humans 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.880 if we settle on the red planet. Welcome to Daniel 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:17.560 and Kelly's Alien Universe. 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.240 Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist who has evolved 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.160 to live on Earth. And on Earth I will live. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.959 Hello, I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I am a space settlement 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.279 wet blanket and I love it here on Earth. 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.200 Do you like snuggling up under that wet blanket and 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:48.560 getting all cozy and damp? 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.440 Well, I throw it in the dryer first, and then 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.120 I snuggle up underneath it, and it's really wonderful there. 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:56.760 And then I look at the moths which we find 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:58.120 on this planet alone. 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.520 Well, since we're extending this analogy, aren't you supposed to 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.320 be throwing that wet blanket on other people's plans rather 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:05.560 than snuggling up under it. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.640 You know, I don't want to dampen other people's joy, really, 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:12.600 and you know I could be wrong. I just want 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:14.639 to make sure, No, I really don't. I just want 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.679 to like make sure everyone's aware of the complications. Let's 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.080 solve these problems first, and then we'll go out there 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.239 and uh, people the cosmos. 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.519 So you do think that that's the future, You think 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.520 we are going to be peopling the cosmos? 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.919 I mean I kind of hope we do at some point, 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.520 because I like, I also think the idea of somebody 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.440 waking up on a foreign planet and seeing the sun 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.440 rise or you know, seeing two moons standing on the 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.680 surface of Mars or something like. I don't know, that's 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.400 beautiful and that's exciting, but it's not beautiful and exciting 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.400 to me if it kicks off a war between China 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.600 and the US back here on Earth, Like, there are 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.519 conditions under which that is not a beautiful scenario, and 0:02:58.560 --> 0:02:59.800 I'd like to avoid those. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:02.800 I think a lot of the people who share that 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:07.160 fantasy with you are sci fi addicts like me, And 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.400 you know, we read books about this and it seems 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.360 like a glorious future and so many adventures. But also 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.240 in those books there are a lot of wars. 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:14.720 You know. 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.720 That's what makes the books filled with drama and excitement. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.160 It's not like and then we went to Jupiter and 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.240 everybody lived happily and yea, and we smiled at each other, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:25.200 like that's not a very interesting book. 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.280 No, But like, real life doesn't have to be like 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:29.760 a book. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:30.400 But I was. 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.000 I was being interviewed by someone the other day and 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.080 they asked, you know, what do you think the best 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:36.680 outcome would be? And I was like, oh, you know, 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:40.440 we could have like an international research station, you know, 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.200 and you know, I explained a scenario where maybe we 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:48.080 wouldn't have conflict back on Earth, and he was like, yeah, 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.960 but I don't want to be mean here. Is that 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:58.360 a little naive? And I was like, yes, it does 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.240 feel naive saying that out loud right now. But I 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.800 don't think we should go until something like that can happen, 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.280 and so let's stay down here until that moment comes. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.280 And if we have to wait, then we have to wait. 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.640 But that's my whole point, is that our life isn't 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.760 the book and shouldn't be a book. And I think 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:18.600 a lot of people who are excited about the future 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.359 need to remember that the future they're excited about is 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.200 when they read about in books filled with conflict and 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:29.600 suffering and devastation. And that's not necessarily how we want 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.360 things to go, you know. But as we push out 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.720 into the stars, you know, there's lots of ways that 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:36.800 we could make that work. Obviously, we're not just going 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.560 to like land on Mars and have everything work out. 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.800 We've all seen that movie. But you know, there are 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.000 ways we can improve our situation by changing ourselves. And 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.720 then also, of course, ways we could improve our experience 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.120 by developing technology, by finding solutions to these problems ways 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.440 that like, you know, earthy humans like Daniel could maybe 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:58.039 actually have a pleasant experience on the surface. I know 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.520 that we're going to talk to Scott in a minute 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.040 about the human side of things. But how optimistic are 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.800 you that, like engineers are going to solve some of 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.480 these problems for us before we have to like you know, 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.600 grow a third eyeball or like a red hard skin 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:11.680 or something like that. 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.280 You know, I'm optimistic, but I think the first thing 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.120 that we need to do is get a lot more 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.400 people on board with thinking that this is important, because 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.680 at the moment, I don't think there's enough money to 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:25.520 solve a lot of these problems, Like, not a lot 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.760 of people are convinced that this is a worthwhile thing 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:28.080 to do. 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:30.720 And doesn't Elon have a trillion? Now what do you 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:32.400 mean there's not enough money. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.320 He's not spending He's spending it on the rockets, but 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.480 he doesn't seem to be spending it on you know, 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.640 like satellites that are out beyond Earth's magnetic field that 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:44.960 have you know, rodents that are experiencing Martian gravity so 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.000 we can see like are they able to have babies? 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.880 And how are those babies doing. And so money isn't 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.600 being spent on the kinds of things that you can 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.200 read about in a city on Mars, or you can 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.159 read about in Becoming Martian, which is the book we're 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.160 talking about today, and a really amazing book. And I 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.039 should be embarrassed that I pitched my book, but I'm not, 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:06.240 because that's kind of person I am. 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.120 So you're saying that Elon should be spending more of 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.040 his money on basic science. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.520 Research, yeah, absolutely, or somebody needs to. Somebody needs to. 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:17.400 And so I think that technology probably can find solutions 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:19.520 to a lot of these problems. For example, you know, 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.359 radiation might just be about finding the right kind of 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.240 shielding or figuring out the right kind of technology for 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.919 digging underground, and you know, then trying to find ways 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.000 to make living underground pleasant, which could be very difficult, 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.440 but you know, we could experiment with that here on Earth. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.799 There's probably ways to solve a lot of these problems. 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:39.960 But at the moment, the money isn't being released for 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.160 those things. And I think part of it is because 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.320 not enough people on Earth want to do this. And 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.760 I think until people decide this is a worthwhile thing, 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.200 or until enough people decide this is a worthwhile thing. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:54.600 You know, I don't think that money's necessarily going to 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:55.120 be released. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.440 Hold on, you mean if we took a poll of 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.400 people and ask them should we go to Mars? Most 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.080 people would say no? Or do you mean that? Practically 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.440 people don't want it enough to call their Congress people 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:08.480 to get funding to do this kind of research. 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.200 So one thing that's really surprised me is that when 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.520 I go to space conferences, one thing they're frequently grousing 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.800 about is that there's just not enough people in Congress 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.400 who care about space settlement, who want to see money 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.560 released for space settlement science, which is very different than 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.880 like space exploration missions, right, and like you know, this 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.440 is a very particular kind of space science that needs 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.320 to get done. And so I don't think there's a 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.520 lot of Congress people who are clamoring for money to 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.080 get released. There was a time when folks were excited, 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.200 like Newt Gingrich really wanted to see space settlements on 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.160 the Moon and was like clamoring to make that happen. 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.480 But at the moment, there's no there's no person in 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.400 Congress who's really, like you know, ringing the bell for 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:56.760 space settlement as far as I know. 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.080 And I guess that's sort of the headline of your 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.640 book is like, yeah, this is a cool goal, but 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.520 there's a lot of sort of unglamorous science that needs 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.160 to happen first to answer these questions. You can't just 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:08.000 skip ahead. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:09.840 To the good part, right, And to be honest, one 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:11.480 of the things that I was hoping to do with 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.360 the book was get the message out there that like, Okay, 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.240 if you're a congress person or probably much more realistically, 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.960 an aid to a congress person or a scientific advisor 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.360 to a congress person, please understand all of these risks. 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.120 And if you're a congress person gets excited about space settlement, fine, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:32.079 but please make sure they understand all of these complications geopolitical, scientific, 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.640 blah blah blah. It's a whole bag of complications. Please 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.240 make sure they go in with their eyes wide open. 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:39.760 Here's what they need to know. 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.720 And so if any of you listening are aids to 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.880 congress people and want tips on how to talk to 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.000 your boss about space settlement, science, right to us. We 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:51.040 will help you out. 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.840 Absolutely, yes, yes, and please buy Becoming Martian and a 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:56.840 City on Mars. 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.360 Okay, but you're right. Today we're not talking about a 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.280 city on Mars and technological solutions to getting humans off 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.360 the planet. We're talking about whether humans will actually need 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.920 to change or whether we'll evolve into a new species 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.040 if we live in a very different environment, i e. 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.760 On Mars. And so, Kelly, you went out there and 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:17.760 asked folks what they thought about this question. 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:18.320 Yeah. 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:18.600 Right. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.760 So Scott's book imagines like, we're going to get people 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.800 to Mars. What happens if they stay there for a while? 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.120 How what kind of evolutionary trajectory might they take? And 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:32.200 so we asked our extraordinaries, if thousands of people settle 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.800 on Mars, will a new species of humans evolve? 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.160 And before we hear the answers, explain to me why 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.960 you said thousands of people, not millions of people or 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:41.520 just people. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.120 When you read the literature, and the literature is mostly 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.640 by the quote archaeologists, which are the people who imagine 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.480 how many people you need to make interstellar travel work. 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.960 The numbers are usually in the thousands, not in the millions. 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.160 Elon Musk has sort of arbitrarily picked a million people 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.280 for his self sustaining settlement on Marks. But I think 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:05.720 more realistically, we'll get thousands of people in the near 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:11.320 ish term if this estimation, yes, right, yes, you know, 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.200 and so I'm guessing we'll have thousands in then it's 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.240 going to be a while before we have a million people, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:19.120 is what I'm. 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.040 Thinking, right, Yeah, but we can't have too small a group, right. 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.000 It doesn't make sense to talk about evolving a new 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.640 species if it's just like one. 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.360 Guy, that's right, that's right, to just send Daniel up there. 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.440 Please, no, don't send Daniel, all right. And so for 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.600 those listeners who participate and have not read the archaeological 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.320 literature before answering this question, here are their. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.200 Thoughts, assuming that they are isolated. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.920 Done eventually, Yes, but it would probably take a very 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.040 long time, something like hundreds or thousands of generations. 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:54.280 If the cross communication i e. If the people going 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:58.559 back and forth between Earth and Mars are few enough 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:04.240 and the time is long enough that people have been 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.960 settled on Mars thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years, 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.000 then I would say, yes, the new species would evolve 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.760 due to genetic drift. 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:19.080 Well, yeah, we're all evolving like constantly, and like it 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.679 would be different, like the people on Earth would get 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.720 like zap by different evolve rays I forget what they're called, 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.199 but then the people on Mars, so they would definitely 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.000 evolve differently and be different. 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.440 It would be a long time before a new species form, 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.320 because as it stands now, some humans have been separated 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.360 by tens of thousands of years and they could still 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:41.320 make babies just fine. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:46.080 I believe that if a new civilization moved to Mars, 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.960 it would create a different species evolution of humans. Due 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.240 to the isolation of genes there. 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.840 It could although that's a small sample of population to 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:58.440 derive a new species from. 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.720 If it does survive, it might have some issues. 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.520 I think it's more likely that changes will occur through 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.640 human mediated means rather than traditional evolution. 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.199 No, we won't have a new species. For species is 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:16.679 to find is not being able to interbreed. This won't 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:21.320 happen unless they're completely isolated for quite long time, and 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.600 I don't think they would be. There will be people 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:24.680 coming back and forth. 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.480 I don't think it would really be a new species 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.520 of people, but maybe with a little genetic engineering we 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.440 might end up with a highly modified human being. 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.800 Selection pressure and mutation would both be pretty strong factors 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.440 in that so maybe, but it would take a while. 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.520 As with so many episodes, this comes down to definitions. 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.280 Depending on how you define human species, the question could 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:47.280 be answered yes or no. 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:52.520 Given enough time, of course, the new Martians would evolve 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.160 into a new spefee. 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:56.920 I don't think a new species of human will settle 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.760 and evolve on Mars. It lacks a global magnetic feel, 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.520 which would make the environment extremely harsh for any human 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:04.959 to survive, and be they an adult or a child. 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:09.040 Given enough time, every species on this planet will evolve 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:13.640 into another species. But if the thousand humans just die 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:15.440 on Mars, they won't evolve. 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:15.559 No. 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.080 I think possibly not, because if we were able to 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.679 like live on Mars, if society would want life on 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.800 Mars to be similar to life on Earth, then we 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.439 would probably try to make Mars as silar to Earth 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:34.040 as we could. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.240 One thing I appreciate about these answers is that it 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.199 sort of reflects the experience that I had when interviewing 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.640 the space settlement community is that you get extremes. You 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.160 get a lot of people saying no, obviously you're not 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.480 going to get another species, because there's gonna have to 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:50.720 be gene flow, there's gonna have to be resupply trips, 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:52.480 and if there's gene flow, you're not gonna get a 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.760 new species. And then you get other people being like, 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.360 it's a very different environment. Obviously you're getting a new species. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.959 And I think that this reflects that people have very 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.600 different assumptions about what it's going to be like when 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.920 a Martian settlement starts. Yeah, and I think that's very 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.160 interesting and it's a good way to start a conversation 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.200 about what kind of assumptions people have about what it's 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:14.400 going to be like living on Mars. 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.160 Yeah. It also hinges very specifically on the definition of species, right, 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.320 which we've talked about is a little bit fuzzy, and 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.120 hearing these answers, I was thinking, well, if the definition 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.520 is can't interbreed, then like you know, having a zillion 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.080 miles of space between you is enough to prevent you 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:31.480 from interbreeding. 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.200 As long as as long as there's no starships coming 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:35.720 back and forth. 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.600 Right, So, like, technically, if you have identical communities on 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:41.960 Earth and Mars, but there's no way for them to 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.120 like get it on, are they different species? 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.480 Well, I mean, I guess you could say if there 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.160 was some way that you could get them together. Then 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.200 you want to know if they could get it on. 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:58.240 But I should say that Scott's colleague, Scott Egan, in 0:14:58.280 --> 0:14:59.800 a couple months, is going to come on the show 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.640 talk to us about what is a species? How do 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.480 you define it? And I'm looking forward to that conversation. 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:06.120 Awesome. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:07.120 Yeah, But I. 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.920 Think there's also here a real understanding that life on 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.840 Mars will be very different from life on Earth, and 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.160 I was glad to see that these answers reflect people's 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.200 appreciation that evolution is in response to the environment. It's 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.880 not just like some trajectory towards more perfect humans in 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:23.800 the future. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.000 Right, yep, yep. I also felt like there were a 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.880 couple people who were hedging their bets. They were like, look, 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.640 we know this is a show that Kelly is on, 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.680 and so the answer is probably they're just going to 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.320 die out there. And so there are a couple people 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.440 who were like, no, cause they're not going to make 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.480 it because Kelly's on the show, that's what she's going 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:40.880 to say. 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.480 All right, Well, neither of us are experts on human evolution, 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.080 and neither of us are evolutionary biologists. However, we have 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.040 a great friend who is and he just wrote a 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.920 great book on this exact topic. So we're going to 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:56.240 take a break, and when we come back, we're going 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.720 to talk to Scott Solomon about his book Becoming Martian. 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.680 On today's show, we have doctor Scott Solomon. Scott is 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.320 a teaching professor in the Department of Biosciences at Rice University. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.760 He's the author of Future Humans Inside the Science of 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.080 Our Continuing Evolution, and has a new book, which is 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.880 what we're going to talk about today, called Becoming Martian 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.200 How Living in Space Will Change Our Bodies and Minds 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.440 out through MIT Press, and he also hosts the podcast 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.320 Wild World with Scott Solomon. Welcome back, Scott for your 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:47.640 third appearance on the show. 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:49.120 Thank you. I'm excited to be back. 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.240 So Scott, all right, let's start with sort of the 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.000 obvious question where these interviews typically tend to start. What 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.560 made you want to write this book in particular? 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.000 So this book really picks up where my first book 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.359 left off. In Future Humans, I was trying to answer 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:09.360 whether humans are still evolving and how we might evolve 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.240 in the future. And at the very end of that book, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.080 I considered the scenario that would be like what happens 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:22.000 if some people leave Earth, that would lead on a 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:23.879 different evolutionary path. 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.120 And I decided to. 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.040 Kind of pick that thread up and run with it, 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.240 in part because it became clear that people are actively 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:36.600 working on making that happen, both commercial space companies like 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:41.760 SpaceX and Blue Origin, but also governmental space agencies like 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.480 NASA that are trying to create a base on the 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.600 Moon and eventually want to get people to Mars. So 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.520 my question as an evolutionary biologist is what happens if 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:56.400 they're successful. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.359 Something I really enjoyed about your book is that it 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.399 brings out an element of evolution I think is not 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.879 widely enough understood, at least for non biologists, which is 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.760 the role of the environment. Right. Evolution is not some 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.080 march towards some eventual perfect human right through response of 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.240 an organization or population to changing stressors. And of course, 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.840 if you change where you're going to live, then evolution 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:21.919 is going to take a different path. I think your 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.200 book really does a great job of bringing that out. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:24.480 Well. 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.560 Thanks, Yeah, I mean, look, the environment on Mars is 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.080 pretty extreme, as you guys know, and so I wanted 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:35.200 to consider, like, first of all, if it's actually possible 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.479 to live there, which is a big if, right, you know, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:43.119 how would people in just the first generation born on Mars, 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.520 how would they be different? And then if they're able 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:51.320 to keep reproducing and you've got multiple generations living there, 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.920 like what happens later? Do they adapt and gradually get 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.879 sort of better at living in that environment? And I 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:00.840 basically think that's what we should expect. 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.520 And I know there's no value judgment here, but do 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.639 you think that's a good outcome? I mean, should we 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.919 expect different Martian humans and have them be adapted to 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.120 their local environment even if it means like they can't 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:14.399 come back to Earth as easily. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:16.360 Well, that's where we end Daniels. 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:19.960 Conversation's got to flow naturally, Kelly. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.200 I mean, it's really where I start the book, is like, Okay, 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.840 this is happening. Let's think through what the consequences would be, 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.479 Like what do we understand from a biological perspective that 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.000 we can sort of like predict what would happen? 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:37.520 And what can we not say? 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:41.040 And then at the end of the book, I get 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:43.639 back to this question of Okay, knowing what we know, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:45.320 should we do this? 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:46.040 All right? 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.119 Well, then let's save the answer for the end of 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:49.760 the episode as Kelly designed. 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.800 So in the book you draw this beautiful comparison between 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.359 the human explorers who want to go and settle Mars 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.240 and and the Polynesian people who explored and settled the 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.120 Pacific islands. Can you draw those parallels for us here? 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:07.800 Yeah? 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.760 So basically what I try to point out because like, 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.200 as you know, I'm evolutionary biologists by training. I've done 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:18.280 fieldwork on on islands in the Pacific, and I think 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:22.439 we can think about planets as islands. So we know 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.320 a lot about how when a species makes it to 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.960 an island where that species didn't previously exist, We know 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.200 a lot about kind of how the founders of that 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:40.920