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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three point thirty,

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Speaker 1: episode two of Daly's Guys dayitestion of iHeartRadio. This is

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Speaker 1: a podcast where we take a deep dive into america

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Speaker 1: shared consciousness. It's Tuesday, March nineteenth, twenty twenty four. It's

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Speaker 1: like our two thousandth episode three thou. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how many episodes we have, like a lot, thousands of episodes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's finally it's all worth it. Baby. We got

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Speaker 1: to have the author of what the co author of

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite books on this episode.

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Speaker 2: Miles Yep, Bill Larson from Calvin and Hobbes. Fain folks. No,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'll say for David Dave we Grow sorry

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Speaker 2: pressor David Weggrow. Yeah, I mean we are at this point,

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Speaker 2: We're just gonna dive into the interview that we do them.

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Speaker 2: Really just a fantastic discussion. Oh thank you, Justin man,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. What six hundred and forty two episodes sixteen

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Speaker 2: forty two A great year?

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Speaker 1: Look at it now. Columbus sailed me where he was dead?

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Speaker 2: Yeah he was dead?

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I mean, so this is the author

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Speaker 1: of the Dawn of Everything, A New History of humanity

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Speaker 1: that I talked about a lot on this show. It's

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Speaker 1: basically an archaeological look at like prehistoric societies that finds

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Speaker 1: that they're more complicated. They have these complex civilizations and

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Speaker 1: interactions and social structures, and that we just have there's

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Speaker 1: we're sitting on a fucking gold mine of philosophy and

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Speaker 1: history and all all of science political science from all

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Speaker 1: of these civilizations that have just been ignored up till now.

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Speaker 1: And so a big part of this book that we

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Speaker 1: don't I think explicitly state in the interview is that

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Speaker 1: the reason this book is possible is because over the

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Speaker 1: past like thirty years, there has just been an outpouring

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Speaker 1: of discoveries of what these various quote unquote prehistoric civilizations

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Speaker 1: lived like. And we're finding these massive works of art

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Speaker 1: or like ceremonial grounds that are like you can only

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Speaker 1: truly appreciate them from an airplane. They're so vast and

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Speaker 1: beautiful and impressive. And we're better understanding these accounts of

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Speaker 1: Native American thinkers and philosophers who met you know, Jesuit

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Speaker 1: priests and Jesuit like settlers and basically you know, ran

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Speaker 1: circles around them, and so there's all of these amazing

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Speaker 1: thoughts that we could be benefiting from, and instead they're

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Speaker 1: kind of getting deleted from the record by public education. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but also like the most popular like that book Sapiens

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Speaker 1: Stephen Pinker is Better, Angels of Our Nature, Guns, Germs

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Speaker 1: and Steel, like these popular books about history that are

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Speaker 1: not written by archaeologists or people who are like actually

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Speaker 1: looking at the evidence. So that's what I find so

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Speaker 1: exciting about the book is just like what we have

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Speaker 1: a current system that we are stuck in and we

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Speaker 1: think it's the only possible option, and instead we have

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Speaker 1: this rich history that we are ignoring. The book is

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Speaker 1: full of examples of just various civilizations, massive cities that

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Speaker 1: were governed from the bottom up. So's it's a great

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Speaker 1: book to just go to for inspiration when we talk

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Speaker 1: about like our inability to imagine the end of capitalism,

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Speaker 1: or like what a different organization for society would look like.

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Speaker 1: This is a great place to feed your imagination.

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Speaker 2: Well, and also helps to understand what that sort of

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Speaker 2: like how why it's difficult to break the inertia of

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Speaker 2: being able to be like is there something different? Because

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Speaker 2: there's just so much momentum of this like linear version

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Speaker 2: of how civilizations came to evolve, and like you think,

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Speaker 2: like I just think about the literal game Civilization by

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Speaker 2: Sid Myers, and how linear it is, like, well, you

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Speaker 2: need pottery to get admirable husbandry to get mining, and

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Speaker 2: then sailing and then cartography and then money. And because

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Speaker 2: of that, it completely distorts our understanding of how anything

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Speaker 2: has evolved rather than this like inevitable arc of like

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Speaker 2: sort of sequence of events that leads us to a

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Speaker 2: place that there's actually so much more. There was so

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Speaker 2: much more freedom about how these prior civilizations existed and

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Speaker 2: played with different ideas, and yet we find ourselves stuck

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Speaker 2: in an era where like, well this can only be

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Speaker 2: it right, this is like peak thought, and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all is our only option, and it's that is

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Speaker 1: the result that mindset, the mindset where we can't pick

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Speaker 1: or anything else, is the result of a very consistent

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Speaker 1: series of myths and lies that we've been telling ourselves

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Speaker 1: through like histories that are written and kind of cohere

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Speaker 1: to myth Like they point out that like a lot

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Speaker 1: of these founding myths kind of co also cohere to

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Speaker 1: like biblical like creation myths, like they're all kinds so anyways,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a fascinating book. It was a really fascinating conversation.

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Speaker 2: It's a paradigm shifter, tell you that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is this. This is our conversation with

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Speaker 1: Professor David wengro Well. We are thrilled to be joined

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Speaker 1: by an archaeologist and professor of comparative archaeology. He's the

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Speaker 1: author of books like What Makes a Civilization, The Origins

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Speaker 1: of Monsters and co wrote what I think is one

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Speaker 1: of the best books of the past decade, along with

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Speaker 1: the late great David Graeber. It's called The Dawn of Everything,

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Speaker 1: a New History of Humanity. It's an international bestseller. It's

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Speaker 1: really a must read. Talk about a lot on this show.

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Speaker 2: Yep. I read it by it just for sheer repetition

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Speaker 2: of you talking.

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Speaker 1: About it so much.

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Speaker 2: So yes, and I'm glad I did.

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Speaker 1: Well. Please welcome Professor David Wingroadome.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, guys, Thank you. I just want to make a

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Speaker 3: quick disclaim. You know, I wrote all the really bad bits.

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Speaker 1: The bad stuff. Okay, we'll only ask you about the

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Speaker 1: bad parts. Yeah, but I guess our.

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Speaker 2: First question, what's the worst part of the book.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, that's a really good questions. What is the

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Speaker 3: worst part now?

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, I just want to jump right into

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Speaker 1: it because we only have you for a limited time,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like I could talk to you for

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours about this book. But so your book

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Speaker 1: basically upends how we understand the history of humanity, or

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Speaker 1: at least how I did, based on a public school

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Speaker 1: education understanding of history, and the version that I had

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Speaker 1: learned from public school, and then from a lot of

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Speaker 1: these popular nonfiction books like Guns, Germs and Steel, Better,

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Speaker 1: Angels of Our Nature, you know, sapiens. The version I

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Speaker 1: learned is that our current system is the result of

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Speaker 1: a sort of inevitable linear civilizational evolution, and this is

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Speaker 1: just what you're stuck with, and that's it. And those

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Speaker 1: books are written, by the way, by people who aren't

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Speaker 1: archaeologists and anthropologists like yourselves. But what does the actual

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Speaker 1: archaeological record tell us?

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Speaker 3: The first thing I would say is that I think

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Speaker 3: all human societies do this to some degree. It's not

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Speaker 3: just those of us educated in let's say a broadly

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Speaker 3: European tradition. All human societies tell themselves stories about how

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Speaker 3: they came to be, called it myth mythology, if you like.

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Speaker 3: We're not unique in that it's a very human thing

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Speaker 3: to do, and sometimes we reflect more carefully than others

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Speaker 3: about what those stories really are and what we're putting

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Speaker 3: in the minds of our kids. You know, almost from

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Speaker 3: the age that they can even receive such information. And

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Speaker 3: it so happens that the story we by which I

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Speaker 3: do now mean those of us educated in broadly European traditions,

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Speaker 3: have been telling ourselves for a very long time, probably

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Speaker 3: more than two centuries now, hasn't actually changed very much.

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Speaker 3: It starts off with people living in these tiny bands

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Speaker 3: of hunter gatherers wandering around the landscape. There's no private property,

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Speaker 3: so everything is very equal and egalitarian, and then comes

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Speaker 3: sort of fall from grace.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's almost a biblical story, or a story with biblical echoes,

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Speaker 3: where we start off in the garden of Eden, and

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Speaker 3: then there is that faithful moment when somebody somewhere invents agriculture, right,

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Speaker 3: and this is the great transition that changes everything about

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Speaker 3: how we relate to each other. Suddenly you have private

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Speaker 3: property that you can support larger populations, so cities emerge,

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Speaker 3: and once you have cities, you've got to have some

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Speaker 3: kind of central government to keep order otherwise everything is

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Speaker 3: going to fall into chaos. Then you get the origins

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Speaker 3: of the state, and by the time you get to

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Speaker 3: our present world, which is of course divided up from

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Speaker 3: one end to the other into nation states, there's this

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Speaker 3: sense that somehow it was all kind of inevitable. All

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Speaker 3: the key moves in the game were made so long ago,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about not even thousands, but ends of thousands

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Speaker 3: of years ago, that the most we can do these

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Speaker 3: days is kind of tinker around the edges of what

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Speaker 3: we have, but that essentially there is no other in town.

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Speaker 3: So we grew up in nation states, which, as we

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Speaker 3: argue in the book, are actually politically really quite weird

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Speaker 3: and unusual structures. They combine, if you like, three basic

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Speaker 3: forms of power into one institution that we refer to

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Speaker 3: as the state. You know, everyone, everyone claims to live

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Speaker 3: in a nation state. If you don't make that claim,

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Speaker 3: you're in a very vulnerable position. You're either a refugee

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Speaker 3: or you know, in some way in search of an

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Speaker 3: alternative identity. But if you ask people to actually define

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Speaker 3: what that is, you know, what is a state? Could

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Speaker 3: you give me a short definition?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, you would have to think about it.

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Speaker 3: You would have to think about it, which is kind

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Speaker 3: of scary if you think that we you know, we

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Speaker 3: live and we grow up within these political frameworks, but

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Speaker 3: actually what are they? What are they comprise? And you know,

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Speaker 3: generally if you go to the textbooks, what you get

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Speaker 3: is a definition that looks something like this. A nation

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Speaker 3: state of the kind that we all grow up in

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Speaker 3: is sovereign. In other words, it commands its territory. It

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Speaker 3: has the legal right to defend its territory and to

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Speaker 3: use violence in order to do so. So nation states

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Speaker 3: are sovereign and they're inviolable, and if somebody invades your sovereignty,

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Speaker 3: you have the right to go to war. That's one thing.

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Speaker 3: States are complex. They're kind of complex social organism. So

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Speaker 3: you need some kind of administration or bureaucracy. Somebody has

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Speaker 3: to control knowledge at the center just to kind of

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Speaker 3: keep the wheels turning, otherwise it's all going to fall apart.

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Speaker 3: And then we have these things called elections, which are

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Speaker 3: supposed to be the same thing as democracy. Now, as

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Speaker 3: we know, this is not not necessarily going the way

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Speaker 3: that a lot of people imagined democracy would go.

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Speaker 1: Why it would happen. We're not familiar with anything.

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Speaker 3: You wouldn't know about this, but you know, we live

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Speaker 3: in America. In some remote, exotic parts of the world,

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Speaker 3: you get this weird phenomena where the only people who

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Speaker 3: can be elected are over one hundred years old and

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Speaker 3: really strange, and they kind of get up on stage

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Speaker 3: and they can barely make it up there, and then

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Speaker 3: they give their kind of ches and there dribbling and

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Speaker 3: it's awful.

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Speaker 1: And they have to have a personality disorder just to

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Speaker 1: get in the door. You have to like have this

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Speaker 1: weird thing where you're like, I should be in charge

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Speaker 1: of all of this, all of it. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: And then it's kind of like a grand sporting occasion

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Speaker 3: and everyone votes for their favorite team and they basically

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Speaker 3: get to do whatever they like, and yeah, this is

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Speaker 3: this is what some people have come comes in as democracy.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if you put those three things together,

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Speaker 3: I guess you get a rough approximation the kind of

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Speaker 3: societies we grow up in and the kind of societies

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Speaker 3: that we're educated in. And of course, like all other societies,

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Speaker 3: because we grow up in those particular frameworks, we have

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Speaker 3: a natural tendency to think of human history the same

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Speaker 3: way as if it were somehow all leading up to this.

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Speaker 3: And what we're trying to do in our book, me

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Speaker 3: and my friend David Greeber in The Dawn of Everything

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Speaker 3: is actually show how different things really were from this

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Speaker 3: kind of familiar story. There's really been an incredible flood

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Speaker 3: of new information, i'd say, like mainly in the last

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Speaker 3: two or three decades that throws almost every aspect of

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Speaker 3: that story into dissarray. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna have to give you some point as it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess I think one of the

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Speaker 1: most instructive places, and I think a lot of the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the book is taken up talking about some

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Speaker 1: of the like Native American civilizations that when European settlers

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Speaker 1: came to the Americas were like, there's just been this

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Speaker 1: vast rewriting of what that exchange, what that interaction looked like.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, a lot of these American Native American

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Speaker 1: civilizations were miles ahead of the European civilizations they encountered

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Speaker 1: there in terms of the values we consider important, like

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Speaker 1: gender rights, environmental justice, democracy, and it required this massive

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Speaker 1: historical effort to just rewrite that history so it turns

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Speaker 1: them primitive, when in fact they were like these thought

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Speaker 1: leaders that were massive contributors to a lot of these

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Speaker 1: European colonial you know, Enlightenment ideas. But just talking about

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Speaker 1: that and then this idea of like we kind of

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Speaker 1: have a natural experiment there right where European colonial settlers

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Speaker 1: are coming over and interacting with Native Americans who already

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Speaker 1: live on the east coast of North America, and we

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Speaker 1: got to see, like who liked whose version of organizing

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Speaker 1: things better? Right like this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, I guess it's important to

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Speaker 3: point out when we say they were Europeans, they weren't

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Speaker 3: much like you and me. Right, the Europeans were talking

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Speaker 3: about were generally either Jesuit missionaries or aristocrats, traders, soldiers

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Speaker 3: of fortune and whatnot. And you know, suddenly the attitudes

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Speaker 3: of the Jesuits, to our eyes, probably have much less

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Speaker 3: in common with things that you or I might believe

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Speaker 3: about the way society should function. Sure, and what's actually

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Speaker 3: coming back at them from the local populations. For example,

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Speaker 3: they had terrible difficulty getting the hood in Oshawanee and

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Speaker 3: the Wendad and other First nations who lived in the

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Speaker 3: eastern part of North America to even consider a religion

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Speaker 3: that was based on these ten commandments, right, because those

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Speaker 3: are commandments, and that implies that someone's going to tell

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Speaker 3: you what to do, and you're just going to do

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Speaker 3: it because you've been commanded to do it. This was

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Speaker 3: actually a pretty alien concept in these societies. The idea

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Speaker 3: that you would simply obey unquestioningly the command of another,

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Speaker 3: whether it's a priest or a king, or an ancestor,

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Speaker 3: was quite early in to them. And actually one of

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Speaker 3: the things that Jesuits noticed early on was that there

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Speaker 3: was a connection of sorts between this refusal to obey

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Speaker 3: and the development of something else in these societies, which

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Speaker 3: was a really sophisticated style of debate and persuasion. They

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have called it democracy at the time, but what

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Speaker 3: they're describing actually looks a lot more like real democracy

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Speaker 3: than what we were just talking about before, with our

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Speaker 3: bizarre electoral systems. People sitting around in a plaza, taking

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Speaker 3: time to debate, to make their cases, listening to one another,

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Speaker 3: trying to come up with some kind of workable compromise

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Speaker 3: where you don't end up with one group of people

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Speaker 3: who feel like total losers or suckers and the others

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Speaker 3: are victorious, which is never going to lead to anything

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Speaker 3: good in the end. All of this comes out of

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Speaker 3: an assumption that nobody's the boss, you know, nobody. They

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Speaker 3: used to laugh at Europeans, and this comes through quite

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Speaker 3: a lot in the Jesuit missionary relations. They say they

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Speaker 3: kind of laugh at Europeans because we have real chiefs,

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Speaker 3: you know, who must be obeyed. They had chiefs as well,

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Speaker 3: called sachems, but they didn't have that kind of coercive power.

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Speaker 3: If a chief tried to bust people around in that way,

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Speaker 3: people would just laugh at him. They'd make fun of him.

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Speaker 3: They'd say, well, we make fun of our chiefs, and

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Speaker 3: you take yours seriously. So you know, it's like we

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Speaker 3: may tell ourselves we live in free societies, but you

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Speaker 3: go into work or almost any other situation that the

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Speaker 3: majority of people find themselves in their daily lives, and

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Speaker 3: you try and exercise those freedoms, and pretty quickly you

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Speaker 3: know you're going to find yourself out on the street,

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Speaker 3: out of the job, whatever it may be. So as

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Speaker 3: they might have put it, you know, we have play

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Speaker 3: freedoms and real chiefs, whereas those other people, they had

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Speaker 3: real freedoms and kind of play chiefs.

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Speaker 2: And I was always taught that whenever indigenous populations encountered

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Speaker 2: people from Europe, whether they be missionaries or they immediately said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know what, the way you live is actually superior,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for enlightening us onto that. I'm

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Speaker 2: guessing that was that also the case.

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Speaker 1: They confused the way people with gods, right, and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they must be gods, and we'll listen to everything they

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Speaker 1: say and they're better, right.

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Speaker 2: And I'd imagine the Jesuits are like, we can learn

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Speaker 2: nothing from here.

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Speaker 3: Let's I think it certainly came as a shock, and

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Speaker 3: actually we're still kind of feeling the effects of that

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Speaker 3: enormous shock of actually encountering another world of values. You've

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Speaker 3: got to remember, European societies until the eighteenth century had

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Speaker 3: basically known nothing except hierarchy, right, pretty much as long

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Speaker 3: as you want to go back, it had been about

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Speaker 3: the authority of the church, the authority of dynastic lineages, kings, queens, princes, harts.

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Speaker 3: And to be confronted with societies where you had women's freedoms,

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Speaker 3: where people could get divorced, where property was actually shared

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Speaker 3: out in some more equitable way, created what one historian

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Speaker 3: referred to as the crisis of the European mind. It's

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Speaker 3: a crisis, you mean, we don't have to live like this, right,

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Speaker 3: we don't have to be in this world. And so

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Speaker 3: what you get, you know, like you described earlier on,

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Speaker 3: is basically two things going on at the same time.

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Speaker 3: On the one hand, there is an appropriation of some

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Speaker 3: of these values which today we think of as European values,

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Speaker 3: like freedom, democracy, women's rights, all these things we value

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Speaker 3: as progressive values. There is a kind of appropriation of that.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, there is a backlash by

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Speaker 3: more conservative thinkers, particularly the ones who are arguing that

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Speaker 3: property and trade and material wealth are really how we're

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Speaker 3: going to liberate our souls from the power of the

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Speaker 3: church and the power of kings. So you end up

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Speaker 3: with what we call in the book the backlash, the

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Speaker 3: myth of progress, the backlash against this indigenous critique of

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Speaker 3: European civilization, which basically is the story that we started

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Speaker 3: out this conversation with, the one about tiny bands of

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Speaker 3: hunter gatherers, and yeah, they can have all these freedoms,

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Speaker 3: but it's not because they're ahead of us. It's not

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Speaker 3: because they've progressed farther than us. It's the opposite. It's

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Speaker 3: because primitive, and what they mean is primitive in material terms,

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Speaker 3: technologically primitive. Oh they live in these funny little hearts.

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Speaker 3: They don't really wear many clothes. So freedom and democracy

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Speaker 3: and equality become these things that once existed in a

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Speaker 3: kind of natural state. They didn't even have to be created,

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Speaker 3: they were just how people were once upon a time.

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Speaker 3: And then agriculture kind of ruined all of that, and

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Speaker 3: we're into the familiar story. And then, supposedly, and this

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Speaker 3: is kind of the last part of the myth, a

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Speaker 3: small and very select group of white people living in

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Speaker 3: the northwestern part of Europe kind of reclaimed a little bit.

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Speaker 3: They kind of clawed back a little bit of those

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Speaker 3: last freedoms through their understanding of the ancient Greeks and

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Speaker 3: Romans who kept slaves, which is obviously a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a paradox. And hence we end up with these

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Speaker 3: sort of very ambivalent, deeply compromised notions about what democracy

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Speaker 3: is and actually a very low barn what we think

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Speaker 3: democracy is.

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Speaker 1: Right, let's take a quick break. We'll come back and

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Speaker 1: keep talking about this, we'll be right back, and we're back,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean, so, you know, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about European settlers encountering Native American ideals, and you know,

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Speaker 1: by our definition, they were further along, but it seems

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Speaker 1: like they were also further along in terms of like

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Speaker 1: they had. They were constantly going back and forth between

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Speaker 1: more authoritarian less authoritarian forms of government. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: there was just this vast kind of galaxy of different

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Speaker 1: ways that societies were organized.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, this is one of the kind This is

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Speaker 3: one of the things we discovered, I guess in the

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Speaker 3: book that surprised us and kind of intrigued us and

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Speaker 3: actually inspired us to really develop this project is that

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Speaker 3: the whole way we think about humans in societies of

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Speaker 3: the distant post is basically wrong. You know, we begin

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Speaker 3: with these categories like people were either this or they

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Speaker 3: were that. You know, they were either hunt to gather

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Speaker 3: or they were farmers. They were either living in bands

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Speaker 3: or in tribes or in chiefdoms. And actually what we

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Speaker 3: found in the evidence of our fields in archaeology and

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Speaker 3: anthropology is that this really isn't the case. Actually, most

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Speaker 3: human societies, most of the history of our species, have

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Speaker 3: been kind of playing with the clay. You know, there'll

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Speaker 3: be one of these things for part of the year,

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Speaker 3: then they'll switch it around. They might be very hierarchical

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Speaker 3: in their organization. For one part of the year. You

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Speaker 3: might have a police force with coercive powers and whip

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Speaker 3: people or imprison them. But then these powers melt away.

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Speaker 3: And this often has to do with the actual form

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Speaker 3: that human society takes, which is not stable. It fluctuates.

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Speaker 3: People move around with the changing seasons, they change the

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Speaker 3: size of their groups. There'll be times of year when

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Speaker 3: you have a great abundance of meat and other resources.

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Speaker 3: There'll be other times that are lean. And people have

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Speaker 3: generally adapted their societies to these oscillating conditions. It's like

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Speaker 3: putting a mask on and taking it off where you

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Speaker 3: can have You don't start off with these purely egalitarian societies.

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Speaker 3: There are always going to be individuals who love power,

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Speaker 3: and there are always going to be individuals who want

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Speaker 3: to be flunkies. And you know, that is actually very

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Speaker 3: hard to explain. You know, at another level is individual psychology.

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Speaker 3: But let's assume that there will always be a mixture

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Speaker 3: of people in any human group, even a family or

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Speaker 3: a household, some of whom tend towards that direction and

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Speaker 3: some of whom, let's say, are more into the caring

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Speaker 3: and sharing. The question is what do you do with

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Speaker 3: those people? What kind of institutions do you build. Do

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Speaker 3: you build institutions that are going to raise those ambitious

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Speaker 3: competitive types to the top, or do you create institutions

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Speaker 3: that are kind to kind of level things out.

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Speaker 1: And what we.

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Speaker 3: Discovered is that actually a huge number of societies on

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Speaker 3: all continents of the world have kind of done both simultaneously,

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Speaker 3: so they will not suppress hierarchy all of the time.

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Speaker 3: You might let it out in some spectacular ritual performance.

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Speaker 3: This is why we get these things in human history

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Speaker 3: that people often regard as mysteries or puzzles, the kind

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Speaker 3: of things that the makers of certain Netflix series like

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Speaker 3: to call all great mysteries of the ancient world.

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Speaker 1: That's how mystery. Aliens did it right. Aliens built all

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Speaker 1: those things, I.

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Speaker 3: Agree, all the stuff that Aliens right, like Stonehenge and Egypt,

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Speaker 3: where you know, first you start out by sort of

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Speaker 3: characterizing the society as terribly, terribly primitive, and then you say,

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Speaker 3: but look, here's this incredibly mathematically geographic geometrically sophisticated monument.

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Speaker 3: How could these idiots possibly create which the answer is

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Speaker 3: obviously they were not idiots. You know, these are people

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Speaker 3: who could at times create these incredibly impressive cultural creations,

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Speaker 3: but then at other times, you know, would actually morph

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Speaker 3: into different forms of society. This is what the anthropologist

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Speaker 3: Marcel Moss called the double morphology of society. You don't

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Speaker 3: just have one system of law or one system of

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Speaker 3: religion or one systems of politics. You switch things around. Now,

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Speaker 3: this was kind of a revelation to us because it

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Speaker 3: changes the whole question. You know, the big question of

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Speaker 3: human history since the days of the Enlightenments and Jean

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Speaker 3: Jacques Rousseau and people like that, was about the origins

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Speaker 3: of inequality? How did we lose that original equality and freedom?

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Speaker 3: Whereas actually, starting from the earliest evidence that we can find,

434
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 3: you have to ask a different question. You have to

435
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: ask not so much what was the origins of inequality?

436
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: But how did the genie of inequality get out of

437
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: the bottle? When did those cages come down? The restricted

438
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: hierarchy which would always have been there, yea, and that

439
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 3: was always yeah, like relations between adults and kids, in

440
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 3: relations of gender in relations of domestic servitude. You know,

441
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 3: the idea that we've ever lived in societies of equals

442
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: is a little bizarre. So the question becomes more about,

443
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: you know, when did those cages break down? When did

444
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: things like private property and sovereignty and patriarchy escape from

445
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: those cages and effectively come to dominate almost every waking

446
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 3: moment of our human lives.

447
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't like that. When we imagine them. There

448
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: is this kind of bias that you identify frequently in

449
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: the book, which is like this idea that, like you

450
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: just said, those people are idiots. They didn't. It was primitive,

451
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: so they didn't have these elaborate systems to keep all

452
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: of these impulses that today are causing problems for us

453
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: under control. They couldn't have like just you know, we

454
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: refuse to look back and you know, from them, because you.

455
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 3: See that thing the other day. One of the authors

456
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: you mentioned who wrote the Sapiens.

457
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: Book, Yeah, you've all know harari I think, yeah.

458
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was. Someone sent me a clip of an

459
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 3: interview just recently, just the other week, which went viral,

460
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: and I can't remember who was interviewing mister Hararii, but

461
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: he said this thing that annoyed a lot of people.

462
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 3: It went roughly like this, I hope I'm not misquoting,

463
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 3: but he said, I think the interview asked him something like,

464
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: it's often said that, you know, we're living in a

465
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: time of great uncertainty right now. Do you believe that's true?

466
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: And he started off as saying, well, everyone always says

467
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: that about the period of history that they live in,

468
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 3: but today it's actually true. For the this time in history,

469
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: we have no idea what to tell out it. You know,

470
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: we don't know what technologies are going to be relevant

471
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 3: to their lives in twenty years time. Are you falling

472
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 3: for this?

473
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right, that's what this is.

474
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: Where And then he starts talking about what things were

475
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 3: like back in the day, Back in the Neolithic period

476
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 3: or the Middle Ages. You know, there were certain things

477
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: you couldn't predict, like when the Utings or the Mongols

478
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: were going to come through and radio settlement, but you

479
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: knew that you would still be growing wheat and raising

480
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: sheep in twenty years time. There were these basic things

481
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: that you could tell people that you knew were going

482
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: to be relevant. But today all of that's gone. We

483
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: just have no clue what it's going to be. Right,

484
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 3: are you buying any of this?

485
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: No, I probably would have before reading your book. But

486
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: your book does a really good job of dispelling this notion.

487
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 3: That's really telling. I mean, regardless, you know, even if

488
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: you haven't read that book, the implication is actually kind

489
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 3: of fascinating because it implies that there's no connection between

490
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: what we teach our kids and what's actually going to

491
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: happen in the next twenty years. Right, right, Yeah, do

492
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? It's like this idea that

493
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: you're kind of floating blindly into the future and you

494
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: can tell the kids any old thing, but all that

495
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 3: other stuff's going to happen anyway, Whereas in fact, you know,

496
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: this is obviously nonsense. I mean, if we teach our

497
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: kids people didn't always raise sheep, they didn't always grow crops,

498
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 3: you know, and actually, as we show in the book,

499
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: these were very conscious processes which sometimes people actually rejected,

500
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: you know, they decided they tried it on, they tried

501
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: it emphasized, and they decided to drop it again. So

502
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: it's partly this idea that actually goes back to people

503
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: like Rousseau, that we're always kind of floating blindly into

504
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: these traps which we're making for ourselves, but we can

505
00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: never quite see them coming.

506
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

507
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 3: Is really, I think, particularly right now in this historical moment,

508
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: apart from being just kind of wrong, is actually a

509
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 3: pretty dangerous way to look at the world, because you know,

510
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 3: you can kind of put your hands up and say, well,

511
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: tell our kids any old rubbish.

512
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: Right right? Yeah, And just briefly so, Rousseau and Hobbes

513
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: are kind of the two versions we get of that

514
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: narrative we were talking about earlier. With Rousseau. It's like

515
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: we were living in these happy, egalitarian groups and then

516
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: we gave it it's the Harari like sapiens thing where

517
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: and then we decide to.

518
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 3: I think that's roughly although you know, I got to

519
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: tell you Rousseau is way more interesting, Oh for sure. Yeah,

520
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 3: you know, Rousseau was not about fatalism. Rousseau is not

521
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 3: about telling us that there's always going to be this

522
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 3: boot stamping on your face and on your kids' face.

523
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 3: Is Rousseau is about revolution. Rousseau is about, you know,

524
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 3: trying to understand what, what's this liberty that we lost?

525
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 3: You can just add no clue what that might really

526
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 3: be like and.

527
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: Then Hobbes is on the Pinker side. Hobbes is like before, like,

528
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: if you think this is bad, you should see what

529
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: it used to be like. Man, everybody would just like

530
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: kill each other and then we had to like get

531
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: these laws to keep people in.

532
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think Professor Pinker is very forthright about this.

533
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: He actually refers to himself as a neo Hobbs.

534
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: Here, right, and he's like, and if you just look

535
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: at the record of what it used to be like,

536
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: you'll see and then he just like quotes a bunch

537
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: of like widely debunked bullshit about how violent everything used

538
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: to be. And doesn't it.

539
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 3: Well, this is what my friend David used to refer

540
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: to as the extreme center.

541
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly.

542
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: You know, you get it in politics, you get it

543
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: in academias, like these individuals who present themselves as very

544
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 3: rational centrists, and then you actually look really closely at

545
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 3: what they're saying and it is really out there.

546
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's pretty white supremacist. Like he just

547
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 1: keeps talking about the like how we were saved by

548
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: these Enlightenment European thinkers and then like writing the you know,

549
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: erasing the native American influence from everything, and it's just

550
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: the story of how we like trained ourselves to have

551
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: better and better manners and that led to lower murder

552
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: rates if you're not counting World War Two. But yeah,

553
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too bogged down by Pinker,

554
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: but it just I think there's there's just so many

555
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: examples in the book of these stories that upend this

556
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: idea that these civilizations were not complex, that they weren't

557
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: trying different things out, that they weren't like there's a

558
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: I think it's a huron system of beliefs around dreams

559
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 1: that you cover in the book. It was like really

560
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: similar to Freud's theory, but almost more interesting because it

561
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: doesn't go in all the weird.

562
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I mean the ructions we have of this

563
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 3: it's called un in Dunk and it goes by way

564
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 3: I mean centuries before Freud, where actually dreams are one

565
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: of the only contexts in which it does seem like

566
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: you could have almost the kind of power of command

567
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 3: if you dreamed something. It could be a particular object

568
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: or a relationship you wish to have. If it came

569
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 3: to you in a dream, people almost had to try

570
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: and make it come true. So we have these descriptions

571
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 3: of the I think it's the winter seasons from the

572
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 3: late seventeenth early eighteenth century of Huron societies, where people

573
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 3: would gather around and try and make somebody's dream come true.

574
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 3: There was a compulsion to do this, and they would

575
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 3: do this by in top pritting the symbolism of the

576
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: dream in much the way that you know, Freud was

577
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 3: credited with an enormous breakthrough, one of the great intellectual

578
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 3: breakthroughs of the twentieth century, Freudian psychoanalysis. They have it

579
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 3: in their own form. The major difference is that they

580
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: do it communally. You don't have this notion of the

581
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 3: individual therapist and the patient. Society gathers around the individual

582
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: and supports them in much the same way that you

583
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 3: know some of the same kinds of hallucinogenics or psychoactive

584
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 3: substances that we tend to if we ingest them. You know,

585
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 3: people do it as largely as individuals would actually have

586
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: been done in a very communal context, with people caressing you,

587
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: supporting you, holding your hand, kind of taking you through

588
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: it as a group. But I mean, I guess that

589
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: the example of these dreams and dreamings you know, teaching

590
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 3: teaches us is that we're very foolish to dismiss those

591
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: forms of knowledge as somehow alien or exotic. Is actually,

592
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 3: you know, we find them within our own culture.

593
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: I feel like that's sort of one of the things

594
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: that were so limited because we've dismissed so much of

595
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: this wisdom or papered it over with sort of like

596
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: revisionist versions of what had occurred or what things were

597
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: said and what those ideas were. And I think that's

598
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 2: why it's really important too, because as we as people

599
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: tend to look at our own systems of oppression as

600
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 2: being fixed and it's like, well, I don't know what

601
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: you can do. It's just it's just all it was

602
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 2: always kind of trending this way. I think there's these

603
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: examples in your book that just show a if we

604
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 2: can overcome our sort of perspective of like, well, these

605
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: people think this is like old ways man, and like

606
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: they didn't know what they were doing. But there are

607
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 2: examples I think of, you know, Teo Ti Hua Khan,

608
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: where you talk about how that is a shift where

609
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: people saw what was going on with their civilization and

610
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 2: actually decided to change it to a completely different system.

611
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: Can you can you just sort of kind of talk

612
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: us through that process, because I think it's very interesting,

613
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: especially for us who look at what we're like sort

614
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: of these structures we live under now and think, well,

615
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. It is what it is.

616
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there seems to be a whole strand

617
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 3: of I guess what we would call a republican tradition

618
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 3: or a sort of anti monarchy tradition in the deep

619
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 3: history of Mexican societies and especially urban societies ancient cities.

620
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: Terti Wakan is one of the earliest and most spectacular

621
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 3: manifestations of this. So we're in the Valley of Mexico

622
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 3: now around the time of Christ so the years sort

623
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 3: of the year zero one whatever, in the first few

624
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: centuries of the common era. You get this extraordinary city

625
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: forming in the Valley of Mexico with a lot of

626
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: refugees it seems from surrounding areas. There was a lot

627
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 3: of volcanic activity at the time. There's a lot of

628
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 3: destruction going on. People flood into this site and they

629
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 3: fall us city with hundreds of thousands of residents, and

630
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: they start doing all the things that netflix would probably

631
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 3: lead you to expect of an ancient city. They build

632
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 3: great pyramids. That's the Pyramid of the Sun, Pyramid of

633
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 3: the Moon, the Temple of the Feathered Serpent. But then,

634
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: rather fascinatingly, after a couple of centuries of doing this,

635
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 3: they change course in the most dramatic way. They stop

636
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 3: building these great monuments, and all of that labor and

637
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 3: collective investment that went into creating them goes into something else.

638
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: And we know what that's. Something else was because archaeologists

639
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: mapped it. In one of the first really great urban

640
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 3: surveys done by archaeologists, they found this incredible system of

641
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 3: public housing and it goes in a grid. It's incredibly

642
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,479
Speaker 3: carefully planned, and it goes in an orthogonal grid from

643
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: one end of the city to the other, and it houses,

644
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: as far as we can tell, most of the city's

645
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 3: vast multi ethnic population, multi ethnic, multilingual, in very comfortable circumstances.

646
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 3: When archaeologists first discovered these kind of communal villas, they

647
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 3: actually thought they were palaces, and then they realized that

648
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 3: basically everybody is living in a palace, and talking about

649
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 3: really beautiful plastered walls with mural sub floor drainage systems,

650
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: maybe four or five nuclear families living in one of

651
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 3: these compounds or apartment houses, and we can reconstruct a

652
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 3: diet using the kind of techniques that archaeologists use these days,

653
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 3: and show that this was an incredibly prosperous site that

654
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: actually knocked inequality on the head for hundreds of years

655
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: on an urban scale, which is pretty mind blowing.

656
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, these are the civilizations that that we were

657
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: viewing as primitive, and they've already gone through the process

658
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: of having this authoritarian set up and then like overthrowing

659
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: it and building a civilization that like them up and

660
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: running a large city. That's the bottom up, that's right.

661
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 3: I mean, they did actually have some kind of writing system,

662
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 3: it seems that turtu Wakan, but nobody has really been

663
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 3: able to decipher it, and even if we could, it

664
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 3: may not give us the kind of information we would

665
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 3: really love because just imagine the kind of discussions that

666
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 3: are going on. Imagine the kind of philosophical discoveries and

667
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 3: movements that would have accompanied with transition like this, which

668
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 3: we can only reconstruction the material relates. Yeah, imagine all

669
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 3: the intellectual stuff. And actually we do get some insight

670
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 3: into this from a later period when the conquistadors arrive,

671
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: they actually stumble upon cities that are organized in pretty

672
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: egalitarian ways, and they describe some of them, including ones

673
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 3: with full blown urban parliaments, at a time when you

674
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 3: don't really have very much of that going on in Europe.

675
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, actually, let's take one more quick break, will be

676
00:41:53,440 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: right back, and we're back, And yeah, I think it's

677
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 1: interesting one of the parts of the book you identify

678
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: these like key freedoms that people in most civilizations kind

679
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: of take for granted unless they're otherwise trained into obedience

680
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: like we are. So there's they're freedoms that I never

681
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: thought about growing up because they just aren't freedoms that

682
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: are emphasized in our world. But they are a cent

683
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: like very briefly summarized the freedom to move, the freedom

684
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: to disobey, and the freedom to rearrange social ties, which

685
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 1: you know comes up in that story that you were

686
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: just telling. But you talk about those freedoms and like

687
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: how they show up in other civilizations through time, and

688
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 1: like why they would be nice to have for us

689
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: if we just knew to ask for them.

690
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, since you've been to night about the

691
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 3: don of everything tiny well, it's not really a scoop.

692
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 3: But the reason I've been so busy recently is because

693
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 3: I've decided to try and write another book. Hey, I

694
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 3: mean David and I. David and I never intended The

695
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: Dawn of Everything to be a finished project. It was

696
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: always going to be kind of the introduction or a

697
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 3: sort of prolegoma into a whole series that we were

698
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 3: planning to do amazing. David already got it into his

699
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 3: head that it had to be like Tolkien. So the

700
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 3: Dawn of Everything harpit.

701
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: Oh, it was just the it doesn't work.

702
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 3: Stupidly noticed the horbit is actually a pretty short but yeah,

703
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: that's pretty Everything is more like The Two Towers. So

704
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 3: it was a very analogy. But the idea was that

705
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: we would write three sequels. I don't think that's going

706
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 3: to happen without David, but I do want to continue

707
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 3: the project in some way. So I'm working on a

708
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 3: book called The Third Freedom, and I want to take

709
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: forward this concept that we came up with of the

710
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 3: three basic forms of human freedom that you mentioned, the

711
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 3: freedom to move away, the freedom to disobey, and the

712
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 3: freedom to kind of play with the social order, flip

713
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: things around. Create a different kind of society. It's one

714
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 3: of the number of ideas that we sort of throw

715
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 3: out there in the book when we're trying to bring

716
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 3: together our observations and say, okay, what are the larger

717
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 3: conclusions we can draw about all of this. But like

718
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 3: all the concepts in the book, it needs more exemplification

719
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 3: and more exploration. So what I'm trying to do is

720
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 3: understand better the connections between these three freedoms and how

721
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 3: the breakdown of one kind of freedom leads to the

722
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 3: breakdown of another kind of freedom. And you can think

723
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 3: about this at many different levels, from domestic abuse, you know,

724
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 3: if you can't move away, you can't disobey, all the

725
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 3: way up to much larger scale political processes. But I

726
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: actually want to start off with, if you like, the

727
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 3: grandest example of our first freedom to move away, which

728
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 3: is simply the spread of people. Yeah, you know, well

729
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: we all start off as africas, we all start off

730
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 3: from the continent of Africa. Nobody seriously today would dispute this. Actually,

731
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 3: I was thinking about this the other day because there's

732
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 3: a book that came up recently that says we shouldn't

733
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 3: do this archaeology stuff. It never leads anywhere good. You know,

734
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 3: it's always dangerous. It always plays into some demagoguery or

735
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 3: some political mythology is bad. I was thinking, well, that's

736
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 3: obviously true sometimes, but if we didn't do this kind

737
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 3: of work at all, you know, it was very hard

738
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: to get people to accept that humans evolved in Africa.

739
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 3: There was a lot of resistance to that idea, especially

740
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 3: in Europe. People pushed back against it for reasons that

741
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: were entirely racist of African ancestry. These days, almost nobody

742
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 3: disputes it, and you know that is the result of

743
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 3: scientific work in my field. So the idea that you know,

744
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 3: this is all a foregone conclusion and whatever stories we've

745
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 3: come up with a lead to disaster. You know, it's

746
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: a matter of opinion. I don't think it's really the case.

747
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 3: But the point is that from Africa humans disperss. We

748
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 3: know these days that you have humans in Australia sixty

749
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 3: thousand years ago. You have humans in a tiny place

750
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: called New Ireland, which is in Melanesia forty years ago,

751
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 3: which is long before you have humans in Ireland as

752
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 3: in European Ireland. And this is really the most extraordinary

753
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: story of human freedoms, but interestingly, it's never told that way. Actually,

754
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 3: the standard term in the scientific literature for how humans

755
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: get around the world in the first place is colonization.

756
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: We colonize the globe, which is kind of interesting. I mean,

757
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 3: it's hardly the neutral term, especially for a field like archaeology,

758
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 3: which basically developed as an extension of empire. And it

759
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 3: also doesn't make a great deal of sense. I mean,

760
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: maybe if you're talking about humans moving into areas where

761
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 3: you've got Neanderthals or dinisicipants or other human like species, Okay,

762
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 3: maybe then you could talk about colonization. But very often

763
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 3: we're talking about people moving into land that isn't inhabited

764
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 3: by humans at all, and yet we refer to it

765
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 3: as colonization. So there's already this mindset that freedom has

766
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 3: something to do with conquering or power or you know,

767
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: extending your kind of range over somebody else. So I'm

768
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 3: actually starting right at the beginning with that question. You

769
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: know what if we try to think about that differently,

770
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 3: What if we introduce freedom right at the beginning of

771
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 3: the human story in a very concrete way. Has the

772
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 3: freedom to move away.

773
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: That?

774
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that third freedom, I think is, so I'm assuming

775
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 2: the third freedom being the one about to be able

776
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: to rethink what sort of social structures we want to

777
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: engage in. I think there's a quote in the book

778
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: that says, how did we get stuck? Or greed, exploitation

779
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 2: and systemic indifference to others suffering? If something did go

780
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: terribly wrong in human history, then perhaps it began to

781
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: go wrong precisely when people started losing that freedom to

782
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 2: imagine and enact other forms of social existence. And that

783
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: feels so much of like, what, yeah, we are so

784
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: many people are experiencing this sort of form of living

785
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 2: on the planet in this moment and wondering It's like,

786
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 2: is this this is the best we can do? Like

787
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 2: so many people are like, I know there are other

788
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 2: ways to do it, yet, or just there's just so

789
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: much historical societal momentum going against this idea, and I think, yeah,

790
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 2: it really is.

791
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 3: Right, And you know, we all have different things we

792
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 3: can be doing to push back against that kind of

793
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 3: thing and actually try and secure some kind of viable

794
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 3: future for our kids and our kids' kids. And I guess,

795
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 3: you know, my friend David was active on many different fronts.

796
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 3: I guess I share with him the idea that actually

797
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 3: rethinking human history on the largest possible scale should be

798
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 3: part of any freedom movement. Actually, yeah, maybe even has to.

799
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: Be some of the alternate ways, because we talk a

800
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: lot on this show about our inability to imagine other

801
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: systems like that. Kim Stanley Roberts has said that, like,

802
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: it's harder to imagine the end of capitalism than the

803
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: end of the world. Or I'm misquoting that, but basically,

804
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: like people, I.

805
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 3: Always thought that was Asyla la Gwin, but maybe.

806
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: It might be he might be quoting someone else, but

807
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: he like just that idea that when we're asked to

808
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: imagine anything else, we I think just like that. That's

809
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: where our zombie movies come from. It's like, yeah, no,

810
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 1: it's either this or absolute, absolute hell on the streets.

811
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 3: Zombie like zombie zombie thinking is a good way to

812
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 3: think about this, I think. And you know, history is

813
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 3: full of what you might call zombie statistics. Right, let's

814
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 3: just clomber you with numbers.

815
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's just keep going on.

816
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 3: You often hear this idea that by the time of

817
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 3: the Roman Empire, three quarters of the world's population were

818
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 3: living in empires, Right, think about that they were either

819
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: under the boot of Rome, or they were under the

820
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: boot of the Han Chinese, or they were under the

821
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 3: boot of the Parthians or the Cushions. But whichever way

822
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 3: you look at it, like most humans on Earth were

823
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 3: already kind of domesticated within these incredibly hierarchical structures. That's

824
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 3: a zombie statistic. I actually looked at what it's actually

825
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 3: based on, and it's like, it's way for thin I'm

826
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 3: not gonna I think I'm going to write about this,

827
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 3: so I don't want to spoil the surprise. But let's

828
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: just say this is basically not you know, it's it's

829
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 3: got a foundation really in any solid evidence. It's just

830
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 3: one of these kind of factoids that gets repeated and

831
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 3: repeated so that you know, you end up saying something

832
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 3: a bit like this. You say, well, oh, that's great.

833
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 3: There were these other people who were experimenting with all

834
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 3: these different forms of society, but you know, they were

835
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 3: basically on the losing end of history. There were a

836
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 3: few of them. You don't live in the world that

837
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 3: they created. We live in the world that Marcus are created,

838
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 3: or or you like, so come on, get real this

839
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: will realism relations that has to be about either free

840
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 3: trade or war.

841
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 1: Those are the only ingredients that changes the world. Yeah,

842
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 1: I mean there's also parties, carnivals, festival That's one of

843
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: my favorite moments from the book is just talking about

844
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: that as like ritual, you know, festivals as like these

845
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,959
Speaker 1: these places that people could you write in the book

846
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: what's really important about such festivals is that they kept

847
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: the old spark of political self consciousness alive. They allowed

848
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: people to imagine that other arrangements are feasible, which for

849
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,439
Speaker 1: some reason like that connected with our modern condition, right,

850
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: It's like, actually, this could be fun. We could be

851
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 1: like throwing great parties where we get to I guess

852
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: like Burning Man at some point was an example of this,

853
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: and it seems to be even though now like billionaires

854
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: take their helicopters to Burning Man and shit like, it

855
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 1: still seems to be the thing that when I talk

856
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: to people who've been to Burning Man, they end up

857
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: coming away from those festivals talking about, oh, it's cool

858
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: you like exist in a system outside of money for

859
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: a week essentially, but just that idea that like there's

860
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: been these festivals where that like up end the order

861
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: and like children get to play at adult jobs or

862
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: the less powerful get to play the roles of the

863
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: powerful are is really compelling to me and also just

864
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: like kind of made me slightly hopeful that there could

865
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: be like a way that's enjoyable out of this.

866
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 3: This is this is actually really fascinating, and I think

867
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 3: it has a lot to do with you know, where

868
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 3: we place the boundaries between what is serious and what

869
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 3: is play. Right, So all the things you're describing, I

870
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 3: guess have been classified in our culture as forms of play. Yeah,

871
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 3: in other words, they're not to be taken seriously. Okay,

872
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 3: So you experienced this other thing for a little while,

873
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 3: and now you come back to serious seriousness, like serious reality.

874
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 3: This is a shifting boundary. And you know, if you

875
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 3: think about the extent to which are supposedly serious politics

876
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 3: is actually gamified. You know, there's a lot of play

877
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 3: there as well, and where we put the boundaries between

878
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 3: seriousness and play. You know, if you're a historian or

879
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 3: an archaeologist and you write a lot about war and violence,

880
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 3: people take you really seriously.

881
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: You're serious.

882
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 3: You know how many people write about peace? Yeah, or

883
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 3: actually really try and analyze societies that have found ways

884
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 3: to be peaceful and to end wars or design ways

885
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 3: out of war so that you can actually envisage mending

886
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: these these social wounds and physical wounds done on each other.

887
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 3: It's amazing how little work there is on these things

888
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 3: because somehow that's not regarded as terribly serious. Yeah, you're

889
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 3: a bit flaky. You're a bit flaky playing around if

890
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 3: you'd study that.

891
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

892
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 3: So I think this is really fascinating, and I think

893
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 3: it does it is somehow central in ways that we

894
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 3: don't understand very well. Is the role of play in

895
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 3: human culture generally.

896
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it seems like it's the one constant.

897
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: You guys say, like, humans aren't inherently good or evil,

898
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: they are inherently creative and playful. And that's what you

899
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: find in the archaeological record throughout your your kind of surveying,

900
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: the book which you.

901
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 3: Know, we put things on and we take them off.

902
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 3: And the idea that everyone has to be just one thing. Yeah,

903
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 3: it may turn out to be actually a very radical

904
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:50,919
Speaker 3: and very kind of modern idea and actually very untypical.

905
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 3: And you know, I think we see this around us

906
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 3: all the time, people pushing back against those those kinds

907
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 3: of categories.

908
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Professor wan Gres, such a such a pleasure

909
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: having you. I know we're kind of out of time here,

910
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: but where should we send people to find out more

911
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: about you? Obviously I'm recommending and continued recomend everybody read

912
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 1: The Dawn of Everything, a New History of Humanity. Where

913
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: else should people go?

914
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 3: Don't send them to my universtics. I've got way too

915
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 3: many students.

916
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 1: All right, yeah, I'll tell them, yeah, leave him, leave

917
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: him alone?

918
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 3: Please, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think they should

919
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 3: listen to your show. Quite frankly, that's right.

920
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 2: Wow, wow, Okay, hi Grace, thank you so much.

921
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us. And uh yeah,

922
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: I would love to have you back when the next

923
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: project is uh is out.

924
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot, guys, I'm working on it.

925
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: All right, appreciate it. All right. That was our conversation

926
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: with Professor David Wingro, hopefully the first of many. What

927
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: a joy. Go go read The Dawn of Everything.

928
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 2: Go listen to this show. I mean you just heard

929
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 2: him say it's obvious.

930
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:57,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the most important thing.

931
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 2: This has got some genius level ship. I knew that,

932
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 2: and I knew that, and I knew that. But thank

933
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: you Thank you David for recognizing that.

934
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: Myles, Where can people find you? Follow you all that

935
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 1: good stuff? And is there a work of media that

936
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying?

937
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: Oh man, Uh, you can find me at Miles of

938
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 2: Gray where they got the ad symbols. You like basketball,

939
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 2: you like what you're seeing in the league, or you don't, Well.

940
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: Guess what.

941
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 2: Join Jack and I on our basketball podcast Miles Jack

942
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 2: and also gets me on four to twenty Day Fiance.

943
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 2: We're talking about ninety day fiance. Let's see uh blah

944
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. Let's the tweet I like is

945
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 2: a quote tweet tweet from at Kyle R. Siebel, who's

946
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 2: just said I think about this tweet every single day.

947
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: And the tweet is from at Wheaton three thousand. Michael

948
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 2: Wheaton tweeted at face value. Penguin Random House is an

949
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 2: absolutely insane name for a company that sells anything.

950
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

951
00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: Hey, it's what happens when we start throwing companies. But yeah,

952
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: where'd you get that, oh, Penguin random House? Yeah, oh

953
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,959
Speaker 2: your medication, Yeah yeah, it's cheaper there whim random House.

954
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: Oh shit, it's having an episode tweet. I'm enjoying cat

955
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: Algarista tweeted, they fucking nailed it when they named it snorkeling,

956
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: which is true. Trash Jones tweeted today I'm perfecting the Irish. Hello, Prince,

957
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: he's showing up drunk. And then Mayor Strom tweeted saying

958
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: this guy again at every Jesus painting in the loop. Everyone,

959
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter, Jack Underscore, Obrian you

960
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at

961
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have Facebook fanpage and

962
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: website Daily zeitgeist dot com where you post our episodes

963
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: and our footnotes link off to the information that we

964
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: talked about in today's episode. In this one, we'll probably

965
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: just link off to the dawn of everything. They have

966
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: an extensive bibliography. Yeah, book like all great books. You know,

967
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: if I wrote a book, I would want to be

968
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: able to use it as a murder weapon, and this

969
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: is one of those. It is, yeah, a hefty work.

970
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 2: It's a hefter. It's a hefter.

971
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could probably kill someone with just a bibliography.

972
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: That's I'll think it's.

973
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: Sixty three pages. I think just the bibliography. Yeah, we

974
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 2: don't don't step to their sources. Okay, don't step to

975
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: the sources, all right.

976
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: That is going to do it back this afternoon to

977
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: tell you what is trending until then. Daily Zeke is

978
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from My

979
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit Yeah Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever

980
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. That's gonna do it

981
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: hookcol Later Fight Third Kind of Freedom,